SH Archive 79 A.D. no more: Pompeii got buried in 1631

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POMPEII
The official version states that in 79 A.D. the ancient Roman city of Pompeii was buried under 4 to 6 m (13 to 20 ft) of volcanic ash in the eruption of Mount Vesuvius. The site was eventually lost until its initial rediscovery in 1592 and broader rediscovery almost 150 years later in 1748.

After thick layers of ash covered Pompeii and Herculaneum, they were abandoned and eventually their names and locations were forgotten. The first time any part of them was unearthed was in 1599, when the digging of an underground channel to divert the river Sarno ran into ancient walls covered with paintings and inscriptions. The architect Domenico Fontana was called in; he unearthed a few more frescoes, then covered them over again, and nothing more came of the discovery. Pompeii was rediscovered as the result of intentional excavations in 1748 by the Spanish military engineer Rocque Joaquin de Alcubierre.

Pompeii-Vesuvius-Eruption.jpg

79 A.D.
Pompeii.png

Roque Joaquín de Alcubierre was a military engineer in the Spanish Army
who discovered architectural remains at Pompeii and Herculaneum in 1748.

Roque Joaquín de Alcubierre.jpg
1702-1780
IMPORTANT: Officially the city of Pompeii was lost until 1748. Whatever they claim was dug out in 1599, was not linked to Pompeii at the time.
  • If Pompeii was not discovered and identified prior to 1748, than any mentioning of it prior to 1748 would be a clear and obvious evidence of the scientists trying to substitute true world chronology with bogus data.
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I plan on showing you that Pompeii suffered its fate in 1631, which makes our official history 1,552 years off. I have a pretty strong feeling that the official liars (and I do not mean your local history teacher) know about their mess up. Unfortunately for them, there was some supporting fake evidence created, and it is no longer possible to portray this Pompeiigate as a simple mistake. They simply cannot play it down due to some highly questionable "fakish" evidence of the Vesuvius eruption, and Pompeii/Herculaneum destruction, created to support the date of 79 A.D. The "officials" tied too many historical individuals into this story. It is impossible to correct the timing of the destruction of Pompeii without messing up the entire timeline. Below is an example of such evidence.

Nuremberg_chronicles_Suetonius.jpg
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus commonly known as Suetonius (c. 69 – after 122 AD), was a Roman historian belonging to the equestrian order who wrote during the early Imperial era of the Roman Empire. His most important surviving work is a set of biographies of twelve successive Roman rulers, from Julius Caesar to Domitian, entitled De Vita Caesarum. He recorded the earliest accounts of Julius Caesar's epileptic seizures. Other works by Suetonius concern the daily life of Rome, politics, oratory, and the lives of famous writers, including poets, historians, and grammarians. A few of these books have partially survived, but many have been lost. - Wiki

Our official history claims he stated the following about the Roman Emperor Titus , "There were some dreadful disasters during his reign, such as the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in Campania, a fire at Rome which continued three days and as many nights, and a plague the like of which had hardly ever been known before."

titus_rome.jpg
39 A.D. - 81 A.D.
Coincidentally Titus ruled from 23 June 79 - 13 September 81 A.D., which covers the "official" last day of Pompeii.

My Point: If the eruption indeed took place in 1631, than this Suetonius account is either a fake figure, or he lived at a totally different time. Considering that Titus is tied into the entire history of the Ancient Rome... fill in the blanks yourself.

Note: Various internet sources were used to put this list together.

List of evidence pointing to 1631

1. Old Maps: 1514, 1570, 1575, 1603
2. Etchingss: 1633
3. Epitaffio di Portici: 1631
4. The Three Graces: 1st century AD vs. 1503/1505
5. Pineapples on the Pompeii frescoes
6. Domenico Fontana's Water Conduit: 1590s and water wells
7. Piranesi and Pompeii
8. Christianity in "Before Christ" Pompeii, ROTAS (CIL IV 8623)
9. Pompeii Surgical Tools

1. Old Maps
1514, 1570, 1575, 1603

1514 Opusculum, Distinctum, Plenum, Clarum, Doctum, Pulcrum, Verum, Graue, Varium & Utile
Leone, Ambrogio, 1458/9 - 1525
Plan Bay of Naples 1514 Girolamo Mocetto in de_nola_2.jpg Plan Bay of Naples 1514 Girolamo Mocetto in de_nola.jpg

1570 Ortelius Regni Neapolitani verissima / Link 2
Ortelius, Abraham, 1527-1598
Ortelius Regni Neapolitani verissima_Pompeii_1_1.jpg Ortelius Regni Neapolitani verissima_Pompeii_2.jpg Ortelius Regni Neapolitani verissima_ 1570.jpg

1575 Regno Di Napoli / Link 2
Lafreri, Antonio, 1512 - 1577
Regno di Napoli 1575 Lafreri 1 Credit Library of Congress, Geography and Map Division_1_1.jpg Plan Regno di Napoli 1575 Lafreri 1 Credit Library of Congress, Geography and Map Division_4.jpg

1603 Italia Antiqva
Philipp Clüver 1580 - 1622
Italia antiqva_2.jpg Italia antiqva_0.jpg


2. Etchings
Done in 1633. Pertains to the eruption of 1631.
Mascolo, Giovanni Battista, 1582/3 - 1656, “Mount Vesuvius before / after the eruption,”
Loyola University Chicago Digital Special Collections
Mascolo_Pompei_1_1.jpg Mascolo_Pompei_1.jpg


3. Epitaffio di Portici
Following the disastrous eruption of Vesuvius in 1631, the Viceroy Zunica had an Epitaffio placed to admonish the dangers of the volcano in the future. The epitaph is placed in the current corner between Corso Garibaldi and Via Gianturco, just to the left of Palazzo Ruffo di Bagnara. Below is the original Latin version and the Italian translation by the Lions Club "Portici Miglio D'Oro" reported on a sign on the right of the Epitaph.
POMPEIOS HERCULANEUM OCTAVIANUM, PERSTRICTIS REАTINA ET PORTICU,

Epitaffio_di_Portici,_Napoli_0.jpg
Epitaffio_di_Portici,_Napoli.jpg Epitaffio_di_Portici,_Napoli_0_1.jpg


4. Three Graces
What a bizarre coincidence, considering that Pompeii was not found till 1748,
and Raphael painted his masterpiece in 1503/5.
  • Excavated Fresco: Roman civilization, 1st-century A.D. Fresco depicting the Three Graces. From Pompeii, Italy. Naples, Museo Archeologico Nazionale. Found on south wall of tablinum of IX.2.16. Now in Naples Archaeological Museum. Inventory number 9236.
The Three Graces, from Pompeii_excavated.jpg
  • 1503-05 Oil on Canvas by Raphael: The Three Graces is an oil painting by Italian painter Raphael, housed in the Musée Condé of Chantilly, France. The date of origin has not been positively determined, though it seems to have been painted at some point after his arrival to study with Pietro Perugino in about 1500, possibly 1503-1505.
Raphaël_-_Les_Trois_Grâces.jpg

5. The Pompeii Pineapple
Palazzo Massimo alle Terme, close to the Termini train station in Rome, houses one of the world’s most important collections of Classical art. On the second floor of the museum, in the gallery dedicated to ancient Roman frescoes and mosaics, you can find something very peculiar hidden in what looks like an ordinary mosaic floor. Dating from the early 1st century A.D., this mosaic illustrates various food items. At the top of the scene, a basket of fruit is brimming with figs, grapes, pomegranates, and…. a pineapple! This fresco was discovered in Pompeii.

Pineapple_pompeii.jpg

In Pompeii's House of the Ephebe house there is the following fresco.It is inside the Lararium on the right as one enters the villa.

Pineapple_pompeii_1.gif

There is another fresco there, but somebody does not like pineapples, I guess.

Pineapple_pompeii_2.jpg
Pineapple history: The thing here is that according to our official history of pineapples, there could be no pineapples in Europe in the 1st AD. Here is an excerpt, "The plant is indigenous to South America and is said to originate from the area between southern Brazil and Paraguay; Columbus encountered the pineapple in 1493 on the leeward island of Guadeloupe. He called it piña de Indes, meaning "pine of the Indians", and brought it back with him to Spain, thus making the pineapple the first bromeliad to be introduced by humans outside of the New World." Unless ancient Romans discovered the American continents, it would be impossible for them to know what a pineapple is.

6. Domenico Fontana's Water Conduit: 1590s.
Water wells.
This is probably one of the most damaging pieces of evidence there can be. In 1592 the renown Italian architect Domenico Fontana dug a water channel through Pompeii in order to bring water to Torre Annunziata.

After thick layers of ash covered Pompeii and Herculaneum, they were abandoned and eventually their names and locations were forgotten. The first time any part of them was unearthed was in 1592, when the digging of an underground channel to divert the river Sarno ran into ancient walls covered with paintings and inscriptions. The architect Domenico Fontana was called in; he unearthed a few more frescoes, then covered them over again, and nothing more came of the discovery. Fontana's covering over the paintings has been seen both as a broad-minded act of preservation for later times, and as censorship in view of the frequent sexual content of such paintings. (KD: this sentence is a pure speculation) - Wiki

What we are lead to believe is that this professional architect was digging a tunnel 20 feet below the surface, and through the entire city of Pompeii. Along the way he was discovering building walls, roadways, paintings, frescoes... and was covering them as he barreled through.

Even with the above waterway information alone, it is logical to suggest that Fontana was building his water conduit through an operational city, unaffected by any volcano eruptions. But it gets better. Fontana's water conduit had water wells as was discovered during the excavation. These water wells clearly indicate that the conduit was being built through a live, and unburied city. Otherwise, if you are digging a tunnel 20 feet below the surface, why would you dig up 5 feet and build a water well which is useless due to still being under 15 feet of ash or dirt.

Fontana_Pompeii_waterwell.jpg

This water well, specifically, is screaming that Domenico Fontana was building in the living Pompeii.

Pompei_waterwell_4.jpg

There is one additional Pompeii water well which is worth mentioning. This one is depicted on the Francesco Piranesi's "View of the Temple of Isis in the City of Pompeii", Year 1788/89. In the right bottom portion of the etching we can see an access to Fontana's water conduit via a water well. The water well has a triangular shaped top, meant for access doors.

Piranesi-popmpeii-waterwell.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_water_well_2.png
Piranesi's letter "F" google translation from Latin "A well with two windows covered with movable covers, where the ashes of the victims were thrown."
As you can see in the below contemporary image, the appearence of the water well is somewhat different from the depicted by Piranesi.
This water well was too much to explain, and as you can see above the access was significantly altered. Yet, on the 19th century "Pompeii: Temple of Isis" postcard, the water well was pretty much intact.

pompeii_postcard_1.jpg

Water well conclusion: it is obvious that water wells connected to the Fontana's water conduit could not be built under 20 feet of ash and dirt. That would be stupid, and ridiculous, while simultaneously contradicting any common sense. They had to be constructed on top of the unobstructed surface.

NOTE: Archaeologists choose not to comment on the water well issue. I wonder why...

7. Piranesi and Pompeii
In 1748, digging proceeded sporadically, here and there at random; it was several years before the site was identified as Pompeii, and even then there was no systematic town plan. During the French occupation of Naples, 1806-1815, there was much more activity on the site, but with the restoration of the Bourbons excavations gradually slowed down again. The discovery of the House of the Faun containing the large mosaic depicting Alexander the Great in battle caught the imagination of people all over Europe following the Unification of Italy in 1861, the appointment of Giuseppe Fiorelli as director marked a turning-point in the excavations.

Most of the Pompeii excavations were done in the end of the 19th and first half of the 20th century.

Yet, Franchesco Piranesi (1758-1810), appears to know way too many of the intricate details, about everything existing in the still unearthed parts of the Pompeii. The below group of his etchings presents details he observed, which could prompt a reasonable question, "How did he know all that"? The other question to ask is why his etchings look more like an aftermath of the mud flood?

Apologies for not finding better quality of the images. On these ones you can not really read the fine print, but Pompeii is clearly visible. For better quality you will have to google "Piranesi Pompeii". Honestly, with farther and son Piranesis working on the Pompeii issue, it is hard to present even a small portion of all the works.

Most fascinating are detailed Pompeii building plans, and the door hardware. Cool stuff to have in 79 A.D. especially when compared to the hardware of the 17th century. 1500 years of no progress I guess.

Piranesi_Pompeii_1_1.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_2.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_3.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_4.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_5.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_6.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_7.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_8.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_9.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_10.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_11.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_12.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_13.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_14.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_15.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_16.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_17.jpg Piranesi_Pompeii_1_18.jpg

8. Christianity in "Before Christ" Pompeii
Sodom and Gomorra.
79 A.D. Pompeii new the Old Testament?

christianity_pompeii.pngchristianity_pompeii_1.png
It reads, "Sator/Arepo/Tenet/Opera /Rotas/" You'll see its clever "palindromic-ness" . It means (literally translated) "Arepo the sower holds the wheels at his work". But, as is often pointed out, the letters can be re-arranged into two "pater noster"s in the sign of a cross with a couple of "a"s and "o"s left over - as in (converting to Greek) "alpha and omega". So it looks as if there could be a Christian significance: "our father" plus alpha and omega.

Of course, "One suggestion has been that this word square with its apparently Christian message was the scratching of people who dug down into Pompeii after the eruption. "
Source for the above. Below are a couple of etchings of the artifacts located in Pompeii, which bear Christian symbology. They were allegedly located by Rocque Joaquin de Alcubierre in February 1756. - The Crosses of Pompeii (I did not dig too deep into the Christianity issue. It honestly hurts my head. There are plenty of articles on the issue with people going back and forth.)

artifacts-of-pompeii.jpg artifacts-of-pompeii_1.jpg

9. Pompeii Surgical Tools
When you google "ancient Roman surgical tools" you immediately run into the surgical tools located in Pompeii. While its logical to assume that they were the best preserved due to being safely stored under the ash, it is also very suspicious due to those tools looking very similar to the surgical tools used in the 16th, and 17th centuries.

pompeii_surgical_tools.png
The explanation addressing the resemblance to the tools used 1500 years later is typical of our "not so honest" history science, "this collection is typical of surgical practice for nearly a millennium and illuminates the practice of medicine in ancient Rome". Once again, we are being told that our ancestors were dumb and stupid for thousands of years, and had no clue on how to develop and improve things. Here is a very good source covering the surgical tools located in Pompeii - Surgical Instruments from Ancient Rome (additional: Roman Medical Tools). Interesting, that quality contrast between Pompeii, and other ancient Roman surgical tools is striking.

Basically, our knowledge of the ancient Roman medical tools is based on the Pompeii find. Now let us look at what those 16th and 17th century surgical tools looked like.

Considering, that the Pompeii tools were kept in the dirt for a few hundred years, they look pretty good when compared to the 16th, 17th century ones. They are definitely matching the complexity.

And here is a little excerpt from, "Pompeii. Surgical Instruments"

Analysis: This collection of instruments was found in the 1770s when the Spaniard Francesco La Vega cleared the villa, which later was named as the House of the Surgeon. These forty medical instruments were made of either steel or bronze and are relatively similar to the medical tools that are used in modern society today. This includes forceps, catheters, needles, tweezers and scalpels. The fresco portrays how the Ancient Roman people could possibly have treated a battle wound.

Developed Conclusions: These surgical tools are unique because they are the best surviving example of what medicinal instruments would be available to people during the first century AD. These tools have been preserved for centuries under volcanic pumice and ash; this has protected these instruments from weather damage, and also the advancement in medicine that would mean the abandonment of these tools. The methods of Roman medicine were based on trial and error, due to the fact that there were no laws regarding the practice of medicine, nor were there any schools that taught the practice of medicine. Because of this, the intent in Roman medicine was to prevent rather than treat, and Roman surgeons learnt as they practiced, gaining experience every time they treated a patient. The medical efforts of the Romans have been considered quite advanced; this has been proven by the insight given from the surgical instruments uncovered in the excavations of Pompeii. These instruments are strikingly similar to modern surgical instruments and many of them were used for the same purpose that today’s surgeons use them for. The medicinal practises of the Ancient Romans was so advanced that it wasn’t surpassed until the nineteenth century. The preservation of this kit of 40 surgical instruments has given researchers the opportunity to accurately compare them to modern tools. This kit also shows the conditions, of which typical Roman surgeons had to endure during the first century AD. Much of the focus for Roman medicine was on damage to the human body during battle; the Roman Empire’s soldiers were offered the most effective treatment as they were considered a high value, at the time of the Mt. Vesuvius eruption, medical practitioners were well experienced in body repair such as bone setting.

I definitely like the "steel" part in there,considering the state of the ancient Roman metallurgy, "Many of the first metal artifacts that archaeologists have identified have been tools or weapons, as well as objects used as ornaments such as jewelry. These early metal objects were made of the softer metals; copper, gold, and lead in particular, as the metals either as native metal or by thermal extraction from minerals, and softened by minimal heat "

And we need to remember that ancient Roman surgical tool making abilities are being based upon these Pompeii tools.

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KD Summary: Based on #6 (Domenico Fontana's Water Conduit: 1590s and water wells) alone, the city of Pompeii had to be a living city during the time when the Water Conduit was being built. Which means that around 1590s the city of Pompeii was not buried under 20 feet of ash.

Additional 8 points just strengthen this theory.
Note: This OP was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Note: Archived Sh.org replies to this OP: 79 A.D. no more: Pompeii got buried in 1631
 
F

Franky Baby

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According to the Encyclopedia Brittanica, Vesuvius erupted in 79, 203, 472, 512, 685, 787, 968, 991, 999, 1007, 1631, 1660, 1682, 1694, 1698, 1707, 1737, 1760, 1767, 1779, 1794, 1822, 1834, 1839, 1850, 1855, 1861, 1868, 1872, 1906, 1929, and 1944.

It also says "The explosions of 512 were so severe that Theodoric the Goth released the people living on the slopes of Vesuvius from payment of taxes." So people were still living in the area.

Maybe they rebuilt Pompeii after the first eruption, and the city was again destroyed by another, later, volcano?
 
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_harris

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According to the Encyclopedia Brittanica, Vesuvius erupted in 79, 203, 472, 512, 685, 787, 968, 991, 999, 1007, 1631, 1660, 1682, 1694, 1698, 1707, 1737, 1760, 1767, 1779, 1794, 1822, 1834, 1839, 1850, 1855, 1861, 1868, 1872, 1906, 1929, and 1944.

It also says "The explosions of 512 were so severe that Theodoric the Goth released the people living on the slopes of Vesuvius from payment of taxes." So people were still living in the area.

Maybe they rebuilt Pompeii after the first eruption, and the city was again destroyed by another, later, volcano?
quite potential, as the time span is certainly long enough... but would the current ruins be ancient, or much more modern?
and how was it forgotten about, to be "discovered", when there's a huge memorial in Naples...? that story has to be complete bollocks!
 

Forrest

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The last coin in Pompeii

The coin story is interesting as a case study in how to fabricate history. The "inconvenient" coin has no credible photos or custodial history, at least not readily available so far. Key dates: 1974, 2006, 2010, 2013, 2014.

1947: Alleged discovery of coin hoard, 140 silver , 40 gold. Did this get hawassed?
2006: "They lay in this archaeological limbo until 2006 when an expert (Grete Stefani, Boscoreale Antiquarium) finally got round to cataloguing [sic] them"
2010: Man and the environment in the territory of Vesuvius : the antiquarium of Boscoreale - JH Libraries Grete Stefani, ed Maybe there are pictures in this.
June 7, 2013: Anon article with a drawing of the alleged Last Coin, no photo. Has photo of similar coin instead.
The Inconvenient Coin: Dating the Destruction of Pompeii and Herculaneum

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=68854.25"I agree that a single coin may not be deemed a suitable exhibit in itself and that is likely the reason for its absence, though there were other coins on show."

Aug 31, 2014. Discussion of missing coin(s) Ancients: Inconvenient Coin: Dating the Destruction of Pompeii and Herculaneum

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43859727?seq=1

image-capture.jpg

"There is an article by Richard Abdy from the British Museum called The Last Coin in Pompeii that came out in the 2013 Numismatic Chronicle. The coin is a denarius of Titus with Capricorn on Globe reverse. The coin is in poor condition and was originally attributed as TR P VIIII IMP XV COS VII PP which would have placed it after the traditional date of the eruption. The article states that under new examination it is actually TR P VIII IMP XIIII COS VII which dates to before the eruption. (Cited from: Ancients: Inconvenient Coin: Dating the Destruction of Pompeii and Herculaneum) "

pompeii_coin.jpg

Photos from 2013 Addy paper. These do not match drawing. Obverse and reverse outlines do not quite appear to match. (Need Photoshop expert to reverse and lay one over the other to compare. Coin 4 is supposed to have only been in circulation of a few months. Coin 3 is supposed to be the "Last Coin". COS V PP or COS V ??
Post automatically merged:

Last post got botched. Coins 3 and 4 are examples that Abby is comparing the alleged Pompeii coins to.

pompeii_coins.jpg

Post automatically merged:

Coin 1 is supposed to be the newly-minted coin that Abby and the rest are using to prove that Pompeii was destroyed in August, or maybe after September, 79 AD. These do not look like freshly minted coins. Coin 1 has been severely clipped, particularly in the spot behind the capricorn-animal on the reverse that is supposed to be proving the year and months of issue. His entire paper is devoted to that spot. Compare and contrast with the drawing of the coin above.

Even allowing for burial in ash for years, the amount of wear on these coins is odd. Why would ash wear them down at all? Here's the gold bracelet that was allegedly part of the same alleged stash-
1603253539390.png
 
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Forrest

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So there's this 'strongbox' that got discovered in a building in Pompeii-

“The most impressive example of this fear of violent theft was found at the warehouse where the two groups of bodies were discovered.”
Dr Kristina Killgrove, a bioarchaeologist, added: “At Oplontis, archaeologists found a very large, strong box that they think belonged to the owner of this large commercial area and it’s possible that person was found in Room 10 as one of the skeletons.”
Explaining the features of the box, the narrator continued: “This ornate strongbox was the Roman answer to the state-of-the-art home security system."

or maybe it was on some road, or maybe this is a different box-

"[Professor] Tuck also identified the Sulpicius family, who settled in Cumae after fleeing Pompeii. This connection was aided by the discovery of a strong box on a road outside of Pompeii, seemingly dragged by the family as they escaped before being abandoned. The box contained financial records, showing that they had business connections in Cumae..."

Maybe this is the strong box.
1603346496679.png


"Italian excavations began in 1974, when the site was accidentally discovered during the construction of a gymnasium for a local middle school. In addition to unearthing a variety of buildings, the excavators found approximately 1,200 shipping jars (amphorae), industrial and household items, and the skeletons of 54 adults and children who died in the eruption while awaiting rescue by sea, several of them still wearing or holding their precious possessions.

One particularly striking artifact is the elaborately inlaid strongbox. Since a strongbox was required equipment for all Roman business establishments, we can speculate that it would have held the proceeds of the commercial activities carried on at the site."

Questions. If the Inconvenient Coin got so worn and clipped, how did this wood box survive a few blocks away?
Did the box have financial records in it or not?
What was the media of the records that were both speculated to be, and also claimed to be, in the box- papyrus, clay, etc?
Why are there not more pictures of the box and its contents?
Why does this box look like something from, e.g., the 16th Century?

“The highly-prized item [the strong box] featured a four-stage locking mechanism to protect any riches inside."
What does this four stage locking mechanism look like? Are there any other similar examples of it from 79 AD?
 
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Forrest

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The images in KD's OP are still there. it may be that the thumbnails didn't copy over.

There is another major problem with the story about Pompeii disappearing for centuries and everybody forgot about it, then someone stumbled across it in the 1700's. There are too many structures that could not have been hidden this way- multi-story houses, towers, walls.

The volcano ash deposits are said to be 20' or 7 meters deep, something like that. But there are lots of structures much taller than 20', starting with the city wall and its towers, Torre XI (Tower #11) in particular. This might be an old photo from the base of that tower, try to imagine hiding it with twenty- or forty- feet of snow or ash-
1603567732747.png


I'm still trying to find the old pictures of this, and one or two from about 1868 showing the ash drifted against a tall wall to the right, several people poking around. There is no dirt or vegetation on the ash, which is another smoking gun.

1603566945725.png




The amphitheater is much more than 20 feet deep, and has the city wall along one side. Picture taken in 1860-
1603567212703.png

Notice the pattern of the dirt/ash deposits on the seats, and the little trees in the background, left. (Looks like Vesuvius is a bit cranky that day, too.) Now a recent photo. The trees have grown up, but hardly any more dirt and ash has been excavated. The wall got a lot spiffier.

1603567333181.png


So from 79 AD to 1748, this amphitheater was invisible under the ash? Then from 1748 to 1860 they dug it out, but then they stopped right there and dug no more?
Post automatically merged:

In the picture below you can see the four rows of ringside seats, then a low wall, with a deep stairwell behind the low wall. Hard to cover that up with 20' of ash. There are then the second-tier seats, another low wall, and a third tier higher up that only has two sections un-excavated. The picture appears to be about the same age as the other B&W picture above, or maybe older? The trees are different, but the dirt and discoloration patterns are almost identical.

Another curious thing about the deposits- why dig out almost down to the seats, then stop, and do so in a nice, even pattern? Why not start from the side and work over, as the sharp edges on dirt-bleacher patterns suggest was done? If the ash rained down like snow, and like it did when Mt. St. Helen blew, we would expect to see this kind of even pattern, with a suggestion of the hidden features imprinted on it, just the way we can see the impression of the low wall between the second and third-tier seats.

So the deposits we see are probably the original, un-excavated parts of the ash that fell on this structure, a few feet deep at best. It was never hidden from view.

1603573591698.png
 
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Forrest

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This is such a beautiful design; the architects were as expert as any. Instantly recognizable as an amphitheater. As iconic as a pyramid, a dam, or an obelisk.

Unmistakable... even if there had been 20' of ash blanket over it. There are mosaics of it in several buildings in town, usually featuring the outside access stairways to the upper levels. The brick arches that carry the walkway along the outer perimeter are well over 20' tall to their undersides. Even if debris had covered the ground they are built on, it could not have reached high enough to disguise this row of arches, let alone the perimeter wall on top.

Anyone anywhere near it would have known what they were looking at.

1603616794159.png
 
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Forrest

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Theory. From 1631 to 1748, the primary reason to hide Pompeii was to give its looters free rein. From 1748-present, the looting took place under the guise of "archaeology".

In general, dry fluffy or rocky material cannot pile up sideways on a vertical surface. An object that is two units tall cannot be buried under a layer of such material that is only one unit tall. In particular, layers of volcanic ash, pyroclastic flow, rocks, debris, or whatever, that are 20' deep cannot bury something that is forty or sixty feet tall.

Tower X (Tower #10), on the city wall of Pompeii, looks to be at least 60' tall in its remaining parts:

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A 20' deep layer of ash would come up to about the height of the wall, leaving an obvious tower, capped with some additional ash, visible for miles around. It can't just get lost for centuries. This can't just get 'lost in ash' either:

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The vertical theater wall is of similar height. Most of the entire interior volume of this theater would have had to have been filled with debris to a depth of at least 50' in order to bury its sheer, outer wall, the same problem as with the 20,000-seat Pompeii amphitheater.

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One of the theaters in maybe 1860. This might be before any major excavation here, because the looters were focused on "restoring" the rich houses first:

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The other theater, 1860- Search results for Photo, Print, Drawing, Pompeii, Available Online, 1860/1869 Notice the debris on top of its wall. It looks untouched and may give the idea of how deep the deposits actually were at this place.

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So the bit about Pompeii getting swallowed up and disappearing for centuries cannot be true.
It is physically impossible.
 
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Forrest

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A close up view of a something that resembles, in some details, some parts of the strongbox in the picture above.

POMPEI, POMPEII, CAMPANIA, ITALY - 2017/01/24: A strongbox deformed by heat in the Obellius Firmus Hose in Pompeii archaeological area. The ancient Roman town of Pompeii was buried during the eruption of Vesuvius Volcano at August 24 79 AD. (Photo by Carlo Hermann/KONTROLAB /LightRocket via Getty Images)


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Forrest

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Some detail about the eruption, gleaned from studying the various layers of pumice, ash, etc. the piled up in different places around the volcano. There were two different types of deposition, vertically from the sky, and then horizontally from the pyroclastic surges, S-1 through S-6. The pumice and small-rock skyfall came first, then the six surges.
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An example of these layers from somewhere near Pompeii, with 'suggested use' pics of Mt. St. Helens in the blue images-​

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What we are probably seeing in the old photos above, coating the seats of the two theaters and of the amphitheater, are the pieces of pumice that fell from above. That's why they reach all the way up into the cheap seats. The pyroclastic surges ran along the ground, and were composed of much finer material. The walls of all three venues blocked those flows, except at the entries. But there was never enough of it coming in through the entrances, or from up and over the walls, to fill up the bowls. If there were, we would not be able to distinguish the individual pieces of pumice on the seats.

The total amount of pumice that fell was about 200 cm, maybe a bit more. We can see that in the chart and it is called out in the book, The World of Pompeii, Dobbins & Foss, Ed., which these images are from.

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The theater seats are quite steep. As the pumice fell, it would tend to bounce and roll down, leaving behind some on the flat seats and walkways. So what we see in the theater images above, except for where stairways are cleared, might be nearly the form that was left from the time of the eruption, undisturbed. The amphitheater has shallower seats and more exposure on its north and east sides. Here we still see a relatively thin layer of deposits, but more even, indicating fines, so it should be composed mostly of the same chunks of pumice from above, mixed with some amount of fines from the pyroclastic clouds that came in over and above the walls and precipitated.

There are other items of interest that point to a more recent event, rather than many centuries ago. One is the lack of topsoil and the scrawny vegetation in the older pictures. The trees in the 1860 amphitheater photo, in the background, are artificially planted in a row, maybe a couple-few decades old. Then they grew up and are still there today. But there aren't any other trees in the old pictures that look that lush. Most of it looks like grass and scrub, the sort of thing that can gain a foothold in volcanic soil. The mounds of ash from Mt. St. Helens still look like this, after 40 years.

Another line item. There were several big eruptions, every few centuries, that covered the area before the city existed, but none since.

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Forrest

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Mt. St. Helens is a recent volcano eruption and well documented. I witnessed this eruption from Seattle; the volcano plume was three times wider and several times taller than Mt. Rainier from that perspective. Mt. Rainier, at ~14,400' tall, is generally the most prominent feature on the skyline. The ash that fell on Portland and along the I-5 corridor looks like an inch or two of gray snow in the way it laid over the buildings and cars. There are several things this eruption has in common with the Pompeii/Vesuvius eruption. A few of these similarities-

1. Part of the blast went sideways, rather than straight up as seen in the Flintstones documentaries.
2. There was "volcano lightning".
3. There were scorching-hot pyroclastic flows.
4. There were several events stretched out over a few hours, not just one blast (much more so in the Vesuvius case).
5. There were large areas covered with thick ash and debris that have no topsoil.
6. Not everyone made it out.

Says here Vesuvius was an order of magnitude larger than St. Helens, and almost as big as the 1991 Pinatubo... which reminds me: I met a man who ran the monitoring station about 5 miles from the summit of Pinatubo. You could tell this event deeply affected him by the way he spoke of it and its aftermath. Not everyone made it out, just like with Mt. St. Helens and with Pompeii.


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Volcano Lightning
Volcanoes were not generally associated with lightning until the internet, maybe mid-2000's. College textbooks on geophysics or geology are dead silent on this topic. There are now of course many spectacular pictures, videos, and accounts of volcano lightning. This is another example of something that was in plain sight yet not seen by those who should have seen.

The alleged Pliny account, which may be a post-1631 document, speaks of lightning in and around the eruption plume. The books and essays posted should also have something in them about it. Pompeii was destroyed by Vesuvius in 1631 (Petrenko)

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a1969/mount-st-helens-history"The force of the eruption also sucked electric charges upwards from the earth's surface, turning the plume into a volatile lightning storm and igniting a 3000-acre forest fire. Before they hurried down the mountain, the Mount Adams climbing party reported sparks jumping between their climbing axes."

Vegetation Aftermath
The amount of topsoil deposited, and the types of vegetation that grow up since the land was blanketed with a heavy layer of ash can tell us something about how much time has passed since the ash was laid down. (TBD)
 
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In the 1968 Soviet children's almanac "I want to know everything!" there is a wonderful essay "Pineapple disproves history":
"1900 years ago the volcano Vesuvius erupted. The cities of Pompeii, Stabia and Herculaneum were buried under a layer of lava and ash. Excavations have been going on for decades. Tourists from all over the world walk along the dead squares and streets, admiring the art of the ancient architects and sculptors. There is much to be amazed at: the magnificent mansions are also decorated with remarkable frescoes - murals that resurrect scenes of everyday life of the inhabitants of ancient Italian cities.
In recent years, Herculaneum has seen new quarters, new murals, and among them... No, of course, not everyone would say it is something particularly remarkable. There are brighter and more beautiful murals. But for scientists?
The fact is that they also depict plants with fruits. And what fruits! Pineapples and lemons - you can imagine!
A startling find: it too can't be reconciled with the story we know. After all, the pineapple is a native of the New World and the cultivated lemon, like the orange, comes from China. However, it was only the traveller Marco Polo who initiated communication between Europe and China. That was in the twelfth century AD. But Pompeii and Herculaneum perished in I century!
It turns out that Roman patricians already knew the taste of lemon juice and used it to flavour meals and drinks! And the frescoes, which seem to have risen out of the darkness of the ages to throw up a pineapple of discord between scholars, continue to stare enigmatically from the walls: "Who will discover our mystery?"

Ананас опровергает историю - Город.томск.ру

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So, back in 1950 Professor Casella from Naples published a paper in which he proved that the frescoes at Pompeii and Herculaneum depict plants of American origin. About this wrote in a personal letter to V. I. Gulyaev Professor P. M. Zhukovsky: "In 1960 I was in Italy, where I met with Professor Casella in Naples. He spent a number of years studying the frescoes of Pompeii and Herculaneum and found American cultivated plants on them: annona, pineapple, etc. How did the Romans in the first century AD know about these plants? I have photographs and light-sensitive films of many of the frescoes. The annona is unmistakable (so distinct is the image); the pineapple is a little unclear, but it is still it. (...) There is an excellent fresco depicting a lemon. The Romans may have known it only from India (...) I wrote about it in my monograph "Cultivated plants and their relatives", ed. 2nd edition, 1964. I wrote it as a sceptic". And now, it turns out, his conscience has tormented him. And in his private letter the professor confesses what he denied in his "solid" monograph: that the pineapple is the pineapple.
V.I. Gulyaev is also commendably frank: "I knew about the works of Italian D. Casella before, but I did not pay much attention to them, considering them as another sensation. And besides, being an archaeologist, I, frankly speaking, did not really go into the essence of the botanical research of a hitherto unknown to me Italian." And suddenly out of the blue! The authoritative Soviet botanist, who worked side by side with the great Vavilov, does not hesitate to confirm: Professor Cassella is right - the frescoes of the Roman cities of Herculaneum and Pompeii, destroyed in the I century AD by a powerful eruption of Vesuvius, shows plants indigenous to America - annona and pineapple! (...) A few years later, this was the conclusion reached by a large group of experts - historians, archaeologists, ethnographers, botanists and geographers - who gathered to discuss the problem of pre-Columbian transoceanic connections of the Old and New World. Thus, botanical evidence suggests that in the first century Romans knew American plants and painted them on the walls of their homes. It remains unclear why such an extraordinary event is not reflected in the works of ancient historians and geographers of the time.

2. Археологические и ботанические данные о связях финикийцев с Америкой. | Румянцевский музей

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According to Andrei Stepanenko's reconstruction, the eruption at Pompeii probably happened 253 or 204 years ago.
 

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1603668946025.png

Thank you for very good post.
In that picture i wonder how it looks like that almost all "seat stones" seems lost, except a few that are visible and sticking out. What is the possible events to get this result?
Did they tumble down during eruption, and was later removed by the archelogists?
To get buried under ash shouldnt make them fall down.

Or was the state like this pre eruption, they vesuvians took the stones for other constructions?
 

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View attachment 6477
Thank you for very good post.
In that picture i wonder how it looks like that almost all "seat stones" seems lost, except a few that are visible and sticking out. What is the possible events to get this result?
Did they tumble down during eruption, and was later removed by the archelogists?
To get buried under ash shouldnt make them fall down.

Or was the state like this pre eruption, they vesuvians took the stones for other constructions?

I jumped to an unwarranted conclusion about this upthread, that this was an undisturbed scene. But it looks like a staged photo, too neat and tidy. The apparently missing seat stones could not have fallen down from an eruption or even from an earthquake, or we would see them somewhere in the picture. They probably were removed by thieves/archeologists before this picture was taken.
 
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