A Celtic/Basque Civilization Erased from History?

[torgo]

I have been finding some clues and information in my research that in my opinion point to a Celtic culture in North America and possibly other lands as well. I've found that the ancient Irish script called Ogam or Ogham has been found in various places in North America, Africa, Ireland, Scotland, and Mayan temples. Several Native American languages were very similar to Gaelic and Welsh, especially the Algonquin languages. Hebrew is believed to be a form of Gaelic. Ogam has been thought to be the Basque language, which has been linked to the Celtic languages. Old paintings of Algonquin, Iroquois, and other natives that are not commonly seen portray them as Caucasians. Many similarities have been noted between Algonquin mythologies and European mythologies. Both the Yuchi and the Duhare were known to be native Irish tribes living in the Southeastern United States. At least the east side of North America used to be known as Great Ireland, according to old texts, especially the Norse and Icelandic Sagas. This may have extended as far as Canada and Mexico. These are some of the main reasons why I believe there was a Celtic empire erased from history which deserves more scrutiny.

Comparison of Algonquin Powhatan native (left) and Scottish Pict (right)

"Over 2,000 years before Maya refugees came to Georgia and at least 1200 years before Panoan immigrants arrived there from Peru, Bronze Age mariners from Northwestern Europe sailed up the Savannah River and established gold mining colonies. They left behind extraordinary petroglyphs, which are identical to their counterparts in Europe, but also a surprising number of geographic place names. One petroglyphic rock at the headwaters of the Savannah River even displays three Bronze Age galleys."
The Irish, Scottish and Sami Indians of the Southeastern United States by Richard Thornton


Celts, Ogam, Basque

Ogham text in Leabhar Bhaile an Mhóta (The Book of Ballymote), written in 1390 or 1391

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From Decoding and Translating Ogam:

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Ogam is a script found in Ireland and Scotland [and N. America & Africa], inscribed mostly on stone but also on bone, ivory, bronze and silver objects. It was used in Ireland from about 350 to 800 AD by the early Irish evangelists who brought Gnostic Christianity to the island, written from the bottom up. From about 750 AD to 900 AD the Benedictine monks also used it in their inscriptions and their book the Auraicept, but they wrote it from left to right.

Academia is groping.
Many academics in different countries have tried to solve the Ogam script puzzle and all have suggested dissimilar solutions. Here are four of them.

Ogam is numerical, not linguistic.
Dr. Anthony Jackson[1] of Edinburgh University studied the inscriptions in Scotland and wrote: "It is clear that the Ogam inscriptions are numerically based and not linguistic." (p.153). When he gave the letters numbers according to the Latin alphabet he found fascinating arithmetic combinations embedded in them, based on prime numbers, and wrote: "Thus we seem to have a battle between rival magics“ (p.154).

Ogam is Basque writing.
A Basque scholar from France, Dr. Henri Guiter[2], thought he could detect Basque words in the letters, however the results he obtained made very little sense. Dr. Douglas Gifford of St. Andrew's University agreed with Guiter that Basque could be involved and urged further study.

Ogam is Old Norse writing.
Richard A.V. Cox[3], lecturer at Aberdeen University, saw the Old Norse language in the letters and wrote: ÃThe use of the Norse language in these inscriptions suggests that the language of their composers was Old NorseÓ (p.166). Yet the results he obtained had been far from convincing.

Ogam is Celtic writing.
Dr. Damien McManus[4], professor of Celtic at Trinity College in Dublin, wrote: "It can be shown without reasonable doubt that the Ogam alphabet was designed for the Irish language" (p.1). According to him, most inscriptions pointed to burials with epitaphs something like: Here lies Johnnie mourned by Mary. The problem was that no, or only a few, burials were ever found underneath the stones and his translations were hardly persuasive.

The Rh-negative clue.
I found Dr. Jackson's book while in Scotland researching the origin of Scottish and Irish geographical names and had found that many of them could be translated with the Basque dictionary. This finding was supported by the blood type of many of the inhabitants who had Rh negative blood, in about the same proportion as the Basque people in Spain. Dr. Cavalli-Sforza, in his article, "Genes Peoples and Languages" (November 1991 issue of Scientific American) had shown the world distribution of peoples with Rh negative blood and concluded that a sea migration was involved from NW Africa north along the west coast of Europe as far north as arctic Norway, the only peoples in the world to have 25% or higher frequency of this blood type. One of the tribes involved in this migration was still speaking their Neolithic language, the Basques, so it was logical to consider the possibility that the entire migration could have spoken that language. Indeed, a great many geographical names from Morocco, Euskadi, Ireland, Scotland and Norway could be translated into meaningful descriptions or comments with the Basque dictionary.

The language of Ogam is Basque
The knowledge that Basque had been used in Ireland and Scotland agreed with Dr. Guiter and Dr. Gifford's findings, even though their results had been unconvincing. But Dr. Jackson also wrote, "All research along linguistic lines has ground to a halt, unsurprisingly..." (p.135) which remark I took as a challenge because these 1500+ year old inscriptions were so well executed and had been preserved for so long, that they just had to tell us something important. While on the Isle of Barra I buried myself for three days in my B&B room and discovered that the "meaningless" lists of letters of the inscriptions contained Basque sentences using words starting with vowel-consonant-vowel (VCV), which about half of the Basque vocabulary has. Ogam used the first three letters of these Basque words, with the VCVs linked together by the vowels, just like Basque words e.g: ohitura (custom), composed of three VCVs: ohi-itu-ura, note the vowels on either side of the hyphens are the same; ohi (habit) itungaitz (disagreeable) urratu (to break). Ohitura therefore had the built-in shorthand sentence saying: "Break that disagreeable habit."

This knowledge I then applied to the Ogam inscriptions, filled in the missing vowels, and translated my first Ogam inscription found in Scotland into a good sentence. I sent my findings to Dr. Jackson who did not answer but instead sent me a second book of his, in which he had written: "There is a popular theory that they are Basque but this does not work either." (p.118) He hadn't looked very hard at what I wrote."

"Ogam inscriptions found in Europe record a Euskaric language similar to Basque, and Nyland claims that Euskaric was stifled in Ireland when the indigenous monks were replaced. These monks were descendants of Faan and Athenians and had ties to the Coptic Church. Nyland believes that the story about Ogma was made up (to hide the Coptic connection, perhaps) and indeed there is proof that Ogam predates Ogma's time. This proof comes from Marija Gimbutas, a specialist in very ancient Europe, and she has found a precursor to Ogam script dating back to 5300 B.C."


From Ancient America:

Genetic similarities between Europeans and American Indians

Archaeologists are just beginning to realize that to understand European prehistory, American prehistory must also be considered. The Solutreans of Spain are now believed to have crossed the Atlantic using the southern Equatorial current and entered the Caribbean and Central America between 18,000 and 12,000 years ago to become known as the Clovis hunters of America. Recent genetic findings suggest that the people now known as Gaelic speaking Celts (including Irish, Welsh, Scots, Basques and Berbers) are a remnant of a group of people who also left Spain between 18,000 and 12,000 years ago and spent 6,000 years isolated from Europe before returning, bringing the Megalithic culture to coastal Europe.

Geneticist Prof Steve Jones, who recently published a book called Y - The Descent of Man, said;

"Genetics provided more reliable clues to the distant past than language did". He and colleagues at University College, London, have spent years creating a genetic map of the Y chromosome, which is passed by males from generation to generation. The results show that the Welsh are related to the Basques of northern Spain and southern France and to native Americans. He said: "There has been much less interbreeding in Wales than you might expect. Wales and Ireland have the most homogenous group of males of anywhere in the world, from the research that's been done so far".

He said; "The Y chromosome common among Welsh males was an ancient one. Most native Americans have the same one. Surprisingly perhaps, the genetics show that the Welsh are not related to the Cornish, despite the similarity of their languages. The Cornish are in effect Anglo-Saxons who for a time used a language that was hanging around. The genes of Scottish males betrayed considerable inter-mixing with outsiders".

James Wilson and Prof David Goldstein of University College London, with colleagues at Oxford University and the University of California, found that Welsh and Irishmen are genetic blood-brothers of the Basque people.

"The findings provide the first direct evidence of a close relationship between the people known as Celts and the Basques. The gene patterns of three races passed down through the male line are all strikingly similar, researchers concluded. Basques can trace their roots back to the Stone Age and are one of Europe's most distinct people, fiercely proud of their ancestry and traditions.

The team looked for similarities between the Y chromosomes (which are only carried by men) they sampled DNA from; 88 “Celtic fringe” individuals from Anglesey, North Wales, 146 from Ireland with Irish Gaelic surnames, and 150 Basques, revealing “remarkable' similarities. On the other hand, he and his colleagues compared Celtic and Norwegian populations and found them to be quite different.

The Celts carried the early Y chromosome, which provides the first clear evidence of a close relationship in the paternal heritage of Basque and Celtic speaking populations. “They were statistically indistinguishable', we also noticed that there's something quite striking about the Celtic populations, and that is that there's not a lot of genetic variation on the male Y-chromosome, We conclude that both the Basques and Celts are reflecting pre-farming Europe. Somehow these people have remained in isolation from the rest of Europe up until the Bronze age where their genes begin to indicate an influx of female genes from mainland Europe" said Prof Goldstein.

The other scenario is that these people were not living in Europe, but were in the Caribbean, the East Coast of America and on islands in the Atlantic.

Barry Fell, author of 'America B.C.' is an accomplished decipherer of ancient scripts and has managed to identify a great deal of Celtic, Phoenician, Iberian, Egyptian, Berber, Libyan and Viking scripts in America, indicating that a great deal of trade contact occurred during and after the Bronze Age, but ceasing around the time of the beginning of the Roman Empire. Apparently these great ocean navigators after the destruction of Carthage, decided to withhold all information on navigating to the Americas from the Romans and by the end of the Roman Empire and the onset of the dark ages, much was forgotten about trans Atlantic navigation and the Americas.

Barry Fell has identified Ogham script in America, Ireland, Spain and Africa that goes back to at least 800BC. Early Egyptian scripts were used by the Micmac of North America right up to the arrival of Missionaries. He also identifies many early style Celtic Megalithic monuments on the east coast of America, in particular New England, New Hampshire, Vermont and Woodstock, they take the form of Dolmens, Phallic menhir, Men-a-tol, massive stone Druid's chairs, megalithic chambers, Solstice and Equinox viewing chambers and burial mounds. These all parallel similar structures in Coastal Europe, especially on the Dingle peninsular, Brittany and some sites in Spain. As usual, this work has been ignored by the Eurocentric 'No one before Columbus' fraternity.

Although Barry Fell did not go further than assert that most Celtic connections occurred around the Bronze Age. He was not aware of the more ancient genetic connections the Celts had with the proto-American Indians. With further studies done, more accurate dating of the Dolmens and other megalithic monuments will possibly show that some American megaliths may actually predate the arrival of Celts on the Dingle peninsular in Ireland, indicating that the Caribbean and America was the original homeland of the Celts.


New England's Celtic Place Names

From 'America B.C.' by Barry Fell

“I was surprised to find many Amerindian place names had somehow survived the onslaught of colonists, rivers and geographical features, it would seem, tend to keep their old names despite the invasions of foreign conquerors.

Modern Gaelic preserves many spelled letters that are no longer pronounced, but when pronounced in the ancient Gaulish or ancestral tongue of the Celts and Basques, one finds a striking similarity to the Algonquian language.

For example; the Algonquian word for ‘one who takes small fish' is Amoskeag. In Gaelic Ammo-iasgag means ‘small fish stream'.
In Algonquian Ammonoosuc means ‘small fishing river' and in Gaelic, Am-min-a-sugh means; ‘small river for taking out fish'.
In Algonquian Coos and cohas mean ‘pine tree' and in Gaelic, ghiuthas means ‘pine tree'.
Merrimack River in Algonquian means ‘deep fishing'. In Gaelic Mor-riomach means ‘of great depth'.
Kaskaashadi another Algonquian name for the Merrimack River sounds similar to Guisgesiadi, which in Gaelic means ‘slow flowing waters'
Nashaway River in Algonquian means ‘land between' and in Gaelic naisguir means ‘land connecting'.
Piscataqua River means ‘white stone' and in Gaelic, Pioscatacua means ‘pieces of snow white stone'.
Seminenal River means ‘grains of rock', which in Gaelic is; semenaill
Quechee matches the Gaelic work Quithe meaning pit or chasm.
Ottauquechee River flows through a 162 feet deep gorge is similar to the Gaelic word Otha-Cuithe which means; ‘waters of the gorge'.
Cabassauk River in Algonquian means place of Sturgeon. The Sturgeon fish have unfortunately fallen victim to environmental degradation. Similar to Gaelic Cabach-sugh.
Attilah means blueberries and in Gaelic Aiteal means juniper berries.
Munt means people and in Gaelic muintear means people.
Monad means mountain and in Gaelic monadh means mountain.
The suffix - nock is used in New England to denote hills and mountains. Cnoc in Gaelic means hill or rocky outcrop.
Wadjak means on top, in Gaelic the word is uachdar.
Monomonock Lake means 'island lookout place' and in Gaelic Moine-managh-ach 'means boggy lookout place'.
Pontanipo Pond means cold water and in Gaelic Punntaine-pol means ‘numbingly cold pool'
Natukko means cleared place (land) and in Gaelic Neo-tugha means not covered (by vegetation).
Asquam Lake means ‘pleasant watering place' and in Gaelic Uisge-amail means ‘seasonable waters'.

These names which have stuck, through many changes over the past 300 years, are not names left by Bronze Age European traders who have sporadically visited America. These are names given to these places by the indigenous Amerindians. As the Gaelic language is unrelated to any Indo-European languages, this can mean only one thing - that the Gaelic language was the original mother tongue of many Amerindians. It stands to reason that anyone speaking Gaelic related languages in Europe were originally from America. The native name of Brittany in France is Armorica, another big hint as to their origins.

More information on Ogam

Also, the Gaelic, Hebrew, and Celt/Israelite connection is very interesting.

Gaelic - Hebrew word comparisons

Ancient Ogam in Oklahoma?

"The Language of the Coast Tribes is Half Basque": A Basque-American Indian Pidgin in Use between Europeans and Native Americans in North America, ca. 1540-ca. 1640

"A basque sailor had very little difficulty conversing with the native Esquimaux, as well as a Scotch highlander."

Some people have identified these marks on this banner weathervane (below) in Geneva, Switzerland as Ogam. Could this be a clue for an Ogam and perhaps Basque-based culture in Europe?




Meander/Greek Key - Ogam Uilleann

from the previous Ogam alphabet image

The widely seen symbol known as the meander or "greek key" has shown up on many ancient and "Tartarian" buildings and may provide a key to the identity of the builders. This symbol is also a letter in the Ogam alphabet known as "uilleann" (elbow) for the "ui" sound. The Ogam alphabet has been described to be more than just letters, but musical notes and vibrations. The ancients are believed to be more in touch with various energies and magnetism for such things as energy and healing. Were these buildings decorated with this as a sacred sound?

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Meander/Greek Key photo collection

Great Ireland

The Norse and Icelandic Sagas tell of a Great Ireland across the Atlantic in North America. It was also known as Saint Brendan's Land. The Norse and Arab explorers were noted for writing about Great Ireland. The name of the Northeast area of N. America as well as a city thought to be Washington D.C. was Norumbega, which Korben Dallas found was most likely derived from an Irish princess named Saint Bega or Saint Bees.

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Sources:
1905 The Norse discovery of America
1838 America Discovered in the Tenth Century
1875 Lives of the Irish Saints
1884 Magazine of Western History
1897 Iowa County democrat. [volume] (Mineral Point, Wis.) 1877-1938, November 18, 1897, Page 3, Image 3
1906 Bismarck daily tribune. [volume] (Bismarck, Dakota [N.D.]) 1881-1916, March 12, 1906, Image 3
1926 Evening star. [volume] (Washington, D.C.) 1854-1972, June 24, 1926, Page 8, Image 8
2006 Ancient Stone Sites of New England and the Debate Over Early European Exploration
1511 De Orbe Novo: The Eight Decades of Peter Martyr D’ Anghera


History of America before Columbus, according to documents and approved authors

The discovery of America by the Northmen : in the tenth century, with notices of the early settlements of the Irish in the western hemisphere

The Norse Discovery of America

The Norse Discovery of America pdf

Two Irelands—The Irish Discovery of America

The Ruins of Great Ireland in New England

The Irish In North America . . . the same petroglyphs on both sides of the Atlantic

Irish colonists came to Southeastern North America four times, long before Columbus

Oval stone enclosures in Georgia Mountains identical to Pictish stone forts in Northeast Scotland

Duhare – Irish “Indians” in South Carolina?

Proof an Irish colony in South Carolina predates Christopher Columbus

The Duhare: A Gaelic Colony in North America Nearly 500 Years Ago

Evidence of Fireworks in Ancient America? - Duhare Irish Indians

How Choctaw Indians raised money for Irish Great Hunger relief

Multi-ethnic confederacies were the norm in the Native American Southeast

The Alecmanni . . . proof that ancient Scandinavians settled in Southeastern North America

The Abbe Brasseur de Bourbourg, in a noted to his translation of the "Popol Vug," says:

"There is an abundance of legends and traditions concerning the passage of the Irish into America, and their habitual communication with that continent many centuries before the time of Columbus. We should bear in mind that Ireland was colonized by the Phoenicians (or by people of that race). An Irish Saint named Vigile, who lived in the eighth century , was accused to Pope Zachary of having taught heresies on the subject of the Antipodes. At first he wrote to the Pope in reply to the charge, but afterward he went to Rome in person to justify himself, and there he proved to the Pope that the Irish had been accustomed to communicate with a transatlantic world." (Atlantis - The Antediluvian World)


The Yuchi/Uchee are a southeastern tribe said to have come from Ireland after a great cataclysm there long ago.

From The Uchee (Yuchi) . . . Everything you wanted to know, but were afraid to ask!:

"All references on the Uchee People read pretty much the same. They are mixture of half-cocked speculations by 19th and early 20th century academicians (who never met a Uchee in their life) with actual historical facts of the Late Colonial and Federal Periods. When Uchee descendants try to insert factual, referenced information into such references as Wikipedia, they are quickly deleted by Caucasian occultists . . . the same type people, who in 2012 deleted all references to the Creek Indians and famous Creek towns in the history sections of Wikipedia articles about all North Georgia counties. That is why there is no mention of Etowah Mounds National Historic Landmark in the Wikipedia article on Bartow County, Georgia. Any attempt to reinsert the three original paragraphs on Etowah Mounds are deleted within minutes by an elderly man living in rural England! He describes himself in Wikipedia as a “Purple Gatekeeper.”

From The Irish, Scottish and Sami Indians of the Southeastern United States:

"The Uchee were probably the last Eurasians to arrive from across the Atlantic during the Bronze Age, but this is not certain. Since Uchee descendants are showing up with Sami DNA, it is highly probable that these immigrants were originally from Scandinavia. Perhaps they were forced out of their homes in Southern Scandinavia by Germanic peoples from the South. Alternatively, they may have been Sjø Sami from Norway’s coast, whose superior sailing skills enabled them to travel long distances. Another possibility is that they initially migrated from Scandinavia to Scotland or Ireland, then later took the big leap across the Atlantic.

The Uchee have been completely erased from Georgia History books and from maps showing the traditional locations of indigenous tribes in the United States. They are virtually unknown to most anthropologists in the United States despite occupying a vast territory at the time of European contact, which was far larger than that actually occupied by the Cherokees. ."


Traditions of the Ancient White People
from 'To the American Indian: Reminiscences of a Yurok Woman'
by Lucy Thompson (Che-na-wah Weitch-ah-wah), page 64-65​

When the Indians first made their appearance on the Klamath River it was already inhabited by a white race of people known among us as the Wa-gas. These white people were found to inhabit the whole continent, and were a highly moral and civilized race. They heartily welcomed the Indians to their country and taught us all of their arts and sciences. The Indians recognized the rights of these ancient people as the first possessors of the soil, and no difficulties ever arose between the two people. Their hospitality was exceedingly generous in the welfare of our people, and all prospered together in peace and happiness, in their pursuit of human existence. After a time there were intermarriages between the two races, but these were never promiscuous. For a vast period of time the two races dwelt together in peace and honored homes; wars and quarrels were unknown in this golden age of happiness. No depredations were ever committed upon the property of their people, as the white people ruled with beacon light of kindness, and our people still worship the hallowed places where once they trod. Their morals were far superior to the white people of today; their ideals were high and inspired our people with greatness. After we had lived with these ancient people so long, they suddenly called their hosts together and mysteriously disappeared for a distant land, we know not where. We have no memory of their reason or cause why they abandoned their ancient homes where they had dwelt for untold centuries. Wars did not drive them forth, for we loved them more than brothers, and difficulties were unknown between the two people. On leaving they went toward the North from whence we came, and disappeared from our land beyond the northern seas. It was a sad farewell when they departed from this land, for our people mourned their loss, as no more have we found such friends as they, so true and loyal. In their farewell journey across this land they left land-marks of stone monuments, on the tops of high mountains and places commanding a view of the surrounding country. These land-marks we have kept in repair, down through the ages in loving remembrance. I have seen many of these land-marks myself (and often repaired them) that they left as a symbol of the mystic ages and the grandeur of a mighty nation that passed in a single season. Oh, how little we know of the depths of the ages gone, how wide, how profound and deep is the knowledge we seek; a monument of stone, a stone bowl, a broken symbol, a hallowed unknown spot, a lodge of ruins, all this makes a golden page glittering with diamonds that trills the emotions with mysterious longings for truth and light in the depths unknown.

Some more links:

Phoenicians/Europeans in Ancient America

Kings of Florida, and vanished white Native American Kingdoms

Madoc and Five Civilized Tribes and Replies

Legendary city of Norumbega: could it be Washington, DC?

Are The Welsh The Lost Ten Tribes Of Israel? (Khumry, Coelbren alphabet, Egypt)

Exposing The Falsification of Welsh-British History

Various Celtic Traditions

Conor MacDari - The great researcher of the occult history of ancient Ireland

Irish Wisdom Preserved in Bible and Pyramids by Conor MacDari

Recent Discoveries Confirming the Irish Origins of Civilization (Michael Tsarion)

 

[6079SmithW]

This thread is a treasure trove

 

[CuChulainn]

Great article, as an Irishman i really enjoyed it. I will say one thing though at the beginning you mention that ogham writing isn't necessarily Irish but as you continue the thread the only thing to discuss is ireland, and its American colonies with a hint of Wales and celticness. I think people need to accept the Irish were at the least one of the first civilisations , an advanced global maritime civilisation and one that stretchs back in time to a hoary age. Great thread.

 

[matematik]

I recall reading that Scottish explorer/archaeologist Laurence Waddell proposed translations for Pictish Ogham inscriptions and concluded that they were Phoenician, which would essentially be similar to Hebrew I believe.

My thoughts would be that all British people, including the English, are descended from this Celtic/Phoenician civilisation, I would guess old "myths" like King Brutus of Troy, and London being called the "New Troy" are related to this, but in more recent times history has been manipulated/re-written to portray the Celts as a small, peripheral culture that had little to no reach beyond the British isles and the English as Germanic invaders.

This would suit the elites because it would obscure the true history of Britain and also give legitimacy to the German royal family, as if the English are seen as basically Germans, then they're only German royals ruling over German subjects after all.

 

[SonofaBor]

I recall reading that Scottish explorer/archaeologist Laurence Waddell proposed translations for Pictish Ogham inscriptions and concluded that they were Phoenician, which would essentially be similar to Hebrew I believe.

My thoughts would be that all British people, including the English, are descended from this Celtic/Phoenician civilisation,

The article is fascinating. I, once again, hesitate to accept DNA evidence as in any way definitive. Can we call these Celts/Phoenicians also Romans?

 

[torgo]

Great article, as an Irishman i really enjoyed it. I will say one thing though at the beginning you mention that ogham writing isn't necessarily Irish but as you continue the thread the only thing to discuss is ireland, and its American colonies with a hint of Wales and celticness. I think people need to accept the Irish were at the least one of the first civilisations , an advanced global maritime civilisation and one that stretchs back in time to a hoary age. Great thread.

Thank you and I agree with you. I've updated the beginning part on Ogam with a bit more info from the linked page. I was trying to make a connection between Basque and the Celtic languages using some of the quotes I included such as the genetic connections between Celts and Basques, and the quote by Barry Fell "Modern Gaelic preserves many spelled letters that are no longer pronounced, but when pronounced in the ancient Gaulish or ancestral tongue of the Celts and Basques, one finds a striking similarity to the Algonquian language." I was thinking this may imply Basque being a sort of pre-Gaelic Celtic language, but I could be wrong. And since Ogam is described as an ancient Irish script, I thought it could have been Basque, as Edo Nyland thought.

 

[matematik]

I've noticed that Gaelic seems to have really irregular and unphonetic spelling, unless you know how the word is pronounced you wouldn't have much chance of guessing its pronunciation from seeing written Gaelic.

I wonder if that has been done deliberately to obscure obvious links between Gaelic and other languages? Admittedly I have very little knowledge of Gaelic so there may well be a perfectly good reason for it being spelt the way it is that I don't understand, but at face value its spelling system seems completely illogical to me. Why can't it just be spelt out how it sounds like most languages are?

I've noticed that Basque in contrast is not like that at all, it's spelling appears to be completely regular and phonetic.

 

[lostspiderphallus]

This was a great read. It totally reminded me of A guy who claims to have found Ogam right outside of Los Angeles in the Los Angeles National Forrest. If this was true it was all the way to West Coast of North America.

SH Archive - The Angeles National Forest Mystery Rocks

The Angeles National Forest Mystery Rocks | ancient america I ran across this article a while back and was fascinated by it. I may only have found it because I was researching Indigenous artifacts and medicine from my area. It is about a person that claims to have found Ogam in LA county...

stolenhistory.net

The original article link doesn't seem to work but here's a good explanation of it.

Angeles Nat’l Forest Mystery Rocks – revisedhistory

Posts about Angeles Nat’l Forest Mystery Rocks written by revisedhistory

revisedhistory.wordpress.com

 

[torgo]

This was a great read. It totally reminded me of A guy who claims to have found Ogam right outside of Los Angeles in the Los Angeles National Forrest. If this was true it was all the way to West Coast of North America.

SH Archive - The Angeles National Forest Mystery Rocks

The Angeles National Forest Mystery Rocks | ancient america I ran across this article a while back and was fascinated by it. I may only have found it because I was researching Indigenous artifacts and medicine from my area. It is about a person that claims to have found Ogam in LA county...

stolenhistory.net

The original article link doesn't seem to work but here's a good explanation of it.

Angeles Nat’l Forest Mystery Rocks – revisedhistory

Posts about Angeles Nat’l Forest Mystery Rocks written by revisedhistory

revisedhistory.wordpress.com

Thanks, I found the article on the old WayBack. Your username is epic, by the way.

 

[6079SmithW]

(I am a welsh speaker) In welsh Igam-Ogam means Zig-Zag

Rather like these shapes

 

[CuChulainn]

I appreciate that Torgo. I belive Ireland and the British empire were actually one and the same and the English simply took over on behest of the Catholic Church it once the irish were sufficiently subdued. I intend in the new year to put a few threads about old Ireland together to better flesh out its Identity which seems hazy at best.

 

[matematik]

Something that doesn't make sense to me is why has Basque separatism and the terrorist group ETA basically been wiped out, and the EU/elites have presumably allowed this to happen, whereas Irish nationalism has gone no where and IRA/Irish republican terrorism while greatly reduced remains a threat to this day.

It seems to me that while Irish nationalism/sectarianism is allowed to fester on, it seems to me that there has been a concerted effort to defend Spanish unity and obliterate any consciousness of the Basque Country as a separate entity to Spanish culture. Irish republicanism has a lot of high profile supporters, especially in the US with their Irish-American contingent, whereas who supports Basque separatism outside the Basque Country? No one as far as I can see.

 

[WorldWar1812]

Great article, as an Irishman i really enjoyed it. I will say one thing though at the beginning you mention that ogham writing isn't necessarily Irish but as you continue the thread the only thing to discuss is ireland, and its American colonies with a hint of Wales and celticness. I think people need to accept the Irish were at the least one of the first civilisations , an advanced global maritime civilisation and one that stretchs back in time to a hoary age. Great thread.

Thank you and I agree with you. I've updated the beginning part on Ogam with a bit more info from the linked page. I was trying to make a connection between Basque and the Celtic languages using some of the quotes I included such as the genetic connections between Celts and Basques, and the quote by Barry Fell "Modern Gaelic preserves many spelled letters that are no longer pronounced, but when pronounced in the ancient Gaulish or ancestral tongue of the Celts and Basques, one finds a striking similarity to the Algonquian language." I was thinking this may imply Basque being a sort of pre-Gaelic Celtic language, but I could be wrong. And since Ogam is described as an ancient Irish script, I thought it could have been Basque, as Edo Nyland thought.

IN FACT Basque language and culture is even a mystery for spanish people. It's really incredible because some spanish specialists links euskera (basque) to Iberian (old iberian) which has very strong relationship.

More than this, this is what is thought in very closed circles.

Basque it's the modern remain of Iberian. I use basque language to define iberian peninsula (Spain & Portugal), as I Berriak.
Taking basque Berri

berri in English - Basque-English Dictionary | Glosbe

Check 'berri' translations into English. Look through examples of berri translation in sentences, listen to pronunciation and learn grammar.

glosbe.com

Meaning I (plural article), and berriak (new, new territories, new lands), one translation.
Another one possibility it's "land of free".

The article I, has a similar consideration for I Talia (Italy).
For this I guess some kind of relationship to Tule, Thule, Tolos, Toledo either.....

Tholos (Kurgans in asian context)

Tholos (architecture) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Toledo, Spain - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Tolosa, Gipuzkoa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Beehive tomb - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

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So Iberia (I berriak) as "land of free", being basques (north of spain, Basque Country and Cantabria region), the last reduct confronting "Roman Empire" domination (a very similar story to the gauls). Real chronology it's your choice, but I don't take official chronology
anyways we talk more than a millenium (which has a projection on his-tory about the real roman empire, for me Holy Roman-German in modern times 1500s). This has been brang to us in the modern world, in some cases reflected as political questions (Irish again English hegemony, and Basque nationalism).

Origin of the Basques - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This idea of basques as a modern interpretation on the very ancient world, called here Iberian culture, comes as I said. meaning the last place these people resisting was in northern spain (Cantabric Sea).

You see these are the people of the lost ancient world (the same for aryans in russia, nordic sagas, or etruscan in italy, gauls in center europe, etc). So basque it's a link to this ancient world which in Spain is called IBERIANS.

Unfortunately I cannot find english sources.

Basque language is old Iberian language

El euskera es el ibero (Xebe Diez)

jaumeastro.blogspot.com

Iberian language - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You see this ancient language (Futhark) and Iberian.

Iberian inscription

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Futhark inscription

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Spanish language specialist (take into consideration a very strange fact - it doesn't exist IBERIAN language degree professorship in Spain, and I think only in Germany in whole Europe. Very strange), as referenced Xebe Diaz supports this explanation or linking Basque-Iberian.

You can research this properly (sorry only in spanish, just use a translator).

Even the name ancient Iberian is linked to Basque Elen.Goa (Language of Heavens).

View: https://www.scribd.com/document/312447272/elengoa-JoseLuisAleman


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQi9ftTYLuE


Elengoa Language (Basques, Iberos and Celts).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFbLCrK0QEM


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z7yiAWct4M


I Berriak (Land of Free)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4Me2J2eJKI



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Lady of Elche (Iberian), and Cantabrian-Basque symbol (Lábaro or properly in basque Lau-Buru, showing 4 corners or four
bull horns).

Cantabria maybe comes from Can (place) Tavri (Bull). Altamira (Cantabria)

Cave of Altamira - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Cave Art Paintings of the Lascaux Cave

The Lascaux Cave is famous for its Palaeolithic cave paintings, found in a complex of caves in southwestern France, because of the exceptional quality, size, sophistication and antiquity of the cave art.

www.bradshawfoundation.com

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So despite the modern projection of basques, in reality, the last reduct (in spain) of this ancient world known here as IBEROS.
And in a certain sense an explanation of the "mystery· of the basque language.

BASQUES=LAST IBERIANS

Los iberos. La cultura ibérica

LOS IBEROS: CARACTERÍSTICAS GENERALES DE LA CULTURA IBÉRICA.En este vídeo se tratan las características generales de la cultura ibera, haciendo un repaso sob...

www.youtube.com

Ancient Traditions in Spain.

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[6079SmithW]

Found an excellent youtube channel on the subject of the lost British civilization

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOzZPfVPqYWKMqm7f7pyPaQ

 

[liqouriceandhorses]

Something that doesn't make sense to me is why has Basque separatism and the terrorist group ETA basically been wiped out, and the EU/elites have presumably allowed this to happen, whereas Irish nationalism has gone no where and IRA/Irish republican terrorism while greatly reduced remains a threat to this day.

It seems to me that while Irish nationalism/sectarianism is allowed to fester on, it seems to me that there has been a concerted effort to defend Spanish unity and obliterate any consciousness of the Basque Country as a separate entity to Spanish culture. Irish republicanism has a lot of high profile supporters, especially in the US with their Irish-American contingent, whereas who supports Basque separatism outside the Basque Country? No one as far as I can see.

Probably because of that they are two different things. Northern spain have different genetics and probably language before the unification happened.

 

[Obssessedstudent]

Amazing!
I've always wondered about many of the things you just posted. It was such a wonderful read. Brilliant.

Have you heard of Benon Zbigniew Szałek? He connects Basque to Dogon in Africa as well as countless others.
Images of Szalek's books

I've been researching quite sometime the "alphabet" of many peoples and i really do see i connection with Ogham and Old turkic, along with the obvious Phoenician alphabet (which i'm sure you know). Leads me to believe there was a more unifying base of languages.

Below is a snippet of old turkic, lots of similar lettering....

Author Michael Tsarion in his book "Astro-Theology and Sidereal Mythology" - attributes many of the works the Hebrews, Egyptians and Greeks had/have, from the Ancient Irish. For instance, "in ancient Wales the priesthood was known as Syw (pronounced Suv, Shuva, Shuwa). In Egypt the priests referred to themselves as Shaau (as in Sowa or Show)."
Apparently the word "cow" comes from this root and the cow goddess was revered in both Egypt and Britain, while the Druids Worshipped the Bull.

I think you are really hitting on something. Early (True) Phoenicians being the celts/druids/ancient gaelic speaking peoples, bring to Europe the Alphabet and even the language. Basque being part of the base language that spread.

Simply fascinating! I hope you post more, Torgo!

IN FACT Basque language and culture is even a mystery for spanish people

And maybe it's a mystery because the language connects to an older civilization that was overthrown by people who now speak the newer "latinized" language and they were never taught that history, just the lies.

 

[WorldWar1812]

And maybe it's a mystery because the language connects to an older civilization that was overthrown by people who now speak the newer "latinized" language and they were never taught that history, just the lies.

Yes, as I told amazingly Iberian language remains unknown and there's no official career degree. Totally bizarre (as if it's one of "those" questions, powers TPB doesn't want to go too far, including basque nationalist politics).

I celebrate the brilliant focus on this thread, as it was inevitable to relate ancient nations to the futhark oggham iberian etc, etc old runic (pictogram in fact) symbols.

Sometime somewehere this pictogram scheme turned to proto-phoenician alphabet. So an ancient language more complex that could even be read in every direction (left to right, right to left, making a matrix, from above to below, etc, and keeping a coherence).


....

Glagolitic script - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nicolai Levashov - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Turning to basques,

You see this idea of Iberian peninsula and the meaning of iberians as "free people", comes to me in different angles.

Iberia=I berriak

aberri (fatherland) eguna (day)- basque nation fest day

Aberri Eguna - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Meaning berri not new but in another sense -aberri- (nation, linking nation not to a place or territory but a group of people).

Another point of view, basque in basque language (Euskera) it's known Euskadi it's the name of this little region in the north of Spain besides France (South France there has some basques either -Aquitaine- or Basque-French country).

What does it mean EUSKADI?. I'm not philologist but a close interpretation should be something like "we govern ourselves"
Eus (we, to us) Kadi (leadership, governance).

Definition of alcaide | Dictionary.com

Definition of alcaide from Dictionary.com, the world’s leading online source for English definitions, pronunciations, word origins, idioms, Word of the Day, and more.

www.dictionary.com

Qaid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The word Kadi, it's related to arabic Al-Kaide (maybe even Al-Qaeda has some relationship but this is very distorted in political and secret services games). Al-Qaeda (The Base) would be here the Council.

Alcalde or Alcaide (in spanish chief of the city council or Major), Cadiz (spanish city in Andalusian region). Probably it's related to the word (large cane or wand of the major, as a symbol of governship, civil or sacred).

...........................

Egyptian crook (In spanish Cayado, or cane shephard).

............ ......................... .......

Did you notice the sephard cane, correlated to Sepharad?

Sepharad - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Again, cane as KADI.

Definition of CADDY

one who waits about for odd jobs; one who assists a golfer especially by carrying the clubs; a wheeled device for conveying things not readily carried by hand… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of alcaide | Dictionary.com

Definition of alcaide from Dictionary.com, the world’s leading online source for English definitions, pronunciations, word origins, idioms, Word of the Day, and more.

www.dictionary.com

cayado

crook. Learn more in the Cambridge Spanish-English Dictionary.

dictionary.cambridge.org

So EUS-KADI (we govern ourselves).

So Euskadi (Basque country) it seems comes from this (I have the cayado wand , or I govern myself) what has been a constant in the recently or modern history of Spain (large autonomy).

The real name is Euskadi (what it's really linked to ancient iberians), Basque it's a more modern term (maybe related to a sort of people's army -Bashkir-).

Just observe in basque tradition, the wellcoming dance (aurrezku), resembles a sort of very old rite related to horses. (unbraving horses and the dangerous kicking).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7EJk0k88Ko
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjVl9zbH5N8




.................................................

There's even another interesting linking from basques and America recolonisation, as Spain took lots of basque people (not only being good sailors), but mainly as people who knowing a bit of this ancient language (euskera or basque), it seems they had better skills to understand native american languages.

My intuition perceives that in ancient world, I don't know how and why, Iberia was a sort of refugee and it was like Americas was in the 17th-Century for europeans, a land to escape out of religious wars and prosecutions, for Iberian case a land for rebel slaves.

Even maybe latin word Libero (free man), comes from L'Ibero (Iberian). So a territory with a great mix of blood, but one original population that seems very linked to RH- in north spain and basques (iberians) mostly.

Lábaro has the same consonant frame.
Same word used for first country founded with free slaves (Liberia).

 

[matematik]

Most translation proposals for Scottish Ogham inscriptions have been that they are Phoenician. I don't know how that fits in with Gaelic, is Gaelic a descendant of Phoenician?

There are certain structural similarities between Gaelic and Afro-Asiatic languages like Phoenician, such as VSO word order which is otherwise unheard of in other European languages.

 

[Obssessedstudent]

Sometime somewehere this pictogram scheme turned to proto-phoenician alphabet. So an ancient language more complex that could even be read in every direction (left to right, right to left, making a matrix, from above to below, etc, and keeping a coherence).

Funny you should say that, I remember a while back OG Korben posting about how Tartarian was somehow able to be read backwards and forwards...it was in an article clipping form the 1800's perhaps.

And maybe it's a mystery because the language connects to an older civilization that was overthrown by people who now speak the newer "latinized" language and they were never taught that history, just the lies.

Yes, as I told amazingly Iberian language remains unknown and there's no official career degree. Totally bizarre (as if it's one of "those" questions, powers TPB doesn't want to go too far, including basque nationalist politics).

I celebrate the brilliant focus on this thread, as it was inevitable to relate ancient nations to the futhark oggham iberian etc, etc old runic (pictogram in fact) symbols.

Sometime somewehere this pictogram scheme turned to proto-phoenician alphabet. So an ancient language more complex that could even be read in every direction (left to right, right to left, making a matrix, from above to below, etc, and keeping a coherence).


....

Glagolitic script - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nicolai Levashov - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Turning to basques,

You see this idea of Iberian peninsula and the meaning of iberians as "free people", comes to me in different angles.

Iberia=I berriak

aberri (fatherland) eguna (day)- basque nation fest day

Aberri Eguna - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Meaning berri not new but in another sense -aberri- (nation, linking nation not to a place or territory but a group of people).

Another point of view, basque in basque language (Euskera) it's known Euskadi it's the name of this little region in the north of Spain besides France (South France there has some basques either -Aquitaine- or Basque-French country).

What does it mean EUSKADI?. I'm not philologist but a close interpretation should be something like "we govern ourselves"
Eus (we, to us) Kadi (leadership, governance).

Definition of alcaide | Dictionary.com

Definition of alcaide from Dictionary.com, the world’s leading online source for English definitions, pronunciations, word origins, idioms, Word of the Day, and more.

www.dictionary.com

Qaid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The word Kadi, it's related to arabic Al-Kaide (maybe even Al-Qaeda has some relationship but this is very distorted in political and secret services games). Al-Qaeda (The Base) would be here the Council.

Alcalde or Alcaide (in spanish chief of the city council or Major), Cadiz (spanish city in Andalusian region). Probably it's related to the word (large cane or wand of the major, as a symbol of governship, civil or sacred).

...........................

Egyptian crook (In spanish Cayado, or cane shephard).

............ ......................... .......

Did you notice the sephard cane, correlated to Sepharad?

Sepharad - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Again, cane as KADI.

Definition of CADDY

one who waits about for odd jobs; one who assists a golfer especially by carrying the clubs; a wheeled device for conveying things not readily carried by hand… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of alcaide | Dictionary.com

Definition of alcaide from Dictionary.com, the world’s leading online source for English definitions, pronunciations, word origins, idioms, Word of the Day, and more.

www.dictionary.com

cayado

crook. Learn more in the Cambridge Spanish-English Dictionary.

dictionary.cambridge.org

So EUS-KADI (we govern ourselves).

So Euskadi (Basque country) it seems comes from this (I have the cayado wand , or I govern myself) what has been a constant in the recently or modern history of Spain (large autonomy).

The real name is Euskadi (what it's really linked to ancient iberians), Basque it's a more modern term (maybe related to a sort of people's army -Bashkir-).

Just observe in basque tradition, the wellcoming dance (aurrezku), resembles a sort of very old rite related to horses. (unbraving horses and the dangerous kicking).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7EJk0k88Ko
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjVl9zbH5N8




.................................................

There's even another interesting linking from basques and America recolonisation, as Spain took lots of basque people (not only being good sailors), but mainly as people who knowing a bit of this ancient language (euskera or basque), it seems they had better skills to understand native american languages.

My intuition perceives that in ancient world, I don't know how and why, Iberia was a sort of refugee and it was like Americas was in the 17th-Century for europeans, a land to escape out of religious wars and prosecutions, for Iberian case a land for rebel slaves.

Even maybe latin word Libero (free man), comes from L'Ibero (Iberian). So a territory with a great mix of blood, but one original population that seems very linked to RH- in north spain and basques (iberians) mostly.

Lábaro has the same consonant frame.
Same word used for first country founded with free slaves (Liberia).

Brilliant analysis! When I see "Eu" or "Eus", from my science days i think "True". In Greek "Eu" is Good.

Still trying to look up what "skadi" or "kadi" is in ancient greek, bc in modern greek its too close to Skata (poop) or the word for bucket - and modern and ancient greek in many ways are not similar.

 

[torgo]

I've updated this article to include what I feel to be important information on the Southeastern Yuchi/Uchee tribe, in the section on Great Ireland, also some links, and a quote from Richard Thornton at The Americas Revealed.