Ancient Rome according to Piranesi and others

[Silveryou]

In the past days, while searching KD's blog (Section listhttps://www.stolenhistory.org/articles/the-ptb-history-fabrication-tools.480/#post-509), I found a very interesting engraving by Piranesi (Giovanni Battista Piranesi - Wikipedia) that can possibly reveal some information on the past of the city of Rome. It's called "Antiquus Circi Martial. Cum Monum. Adiacentia Prospectus Ad Viam Appiam" (roughly: "Ancient Martial Circus with Monuments. Perspective near the Appian Way") and it is supposed to be a fantasy by the author.

What struck me was that strange and unusual line of obelisks and bizarre structures in the middle of the engraving. I recognised immediately the typical spina (Roman circus - Wikipedia) of the hippodromes of the past. Here below is represented the Hippodrome of Constantinople with its spina.

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"Circi" is obviously a Roman circus. The word "Martial" reminds me the Campus Martius, while the Appian Way (Appian Way - Wikipedia) is a famous Italian and Roman landmark. The Campus Martius was located north of the Capitoline Hill (Capitoline Hill - Wikipedia), while the Appian Way began its course near Porta Capena, a gate in the Servian Wall which was near the Circus Maximus (Circus Maximus - Wikipedia), the hippodrome of Rome, located south of the Palatine Hill (Palatine Hill - Wikipedia). I think this last is the optimal position if Piranesi engraved something really existing.

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It seems that Piranesi's point of view was near Porta Capena and therefore the palaces represented should be those on the Palatine Hill.

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The central palace in Piranesi's painting could be the Palace of Domitian (Palace of Domitian - Wikipedia) composed by the Domus Flavia, the Domus Augustana and the garden or "stadium".

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Could this palace be represented on the Hereford map (Hereford Mappa Mundi - Wikipedia) to symbolize Rome?

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But if all of this is true, then the enormous palace behind the Palace of Domitian should be a representation of the famous Domus Aurea (Domus Aurea - Wikipedia) built by the Emperor Nero and said to be a vast landscaped palace!!! It is placed exactly in the position where it should have been, where the Colosseum is located nowadays.

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If we assume that Piranesi was representing Rome, then there are a lot of things to add. In the painting we can clearly see how the Appian way and the Circus Maximus are the same. The road doesn't end or begin near the circus but it continues in the distance with other palaces and also two pyramids on the right (if we imagine to walk in that direction). I have prolonged the hypothetical Appian Way on the map of Rome in the same direction indicated by Piranesi and the result is quite interesting.

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As you can see the road hits perfectly the Vatican on the top left of the map! But this is not all. This road overlaps with the course of the Tiber River and in particular it entirely encomprises Tiber Island (Tiber Island - Wikipedia).

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I have circled in red Pons Cestius (Pons Cestius - Wikipedia), an "ancient" Roman bridge, while in blue the Great Synagogue of Rome (Great Synagogue of Rome - Wikipedia). Now more or less in the position of the blue circle in Piranesi's painting we see a pyramid, the first one on the right! One could say that there is no certainty that the pyramid was placed there, but there is a very peculiar particular: the name of the bridge! Isn't it strange that the bridge is named after the same family that gave its name to to the Pyramid of Cestius (Pyramid of Cestius - Wikipedia), built for Gaius Cestius Epulo? Should it be surprising to have a Great Synagogue in the same place where a pyramid stood?

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I think this gens Cestia (Cestia gens - Wikipedia) is one of those families to research with great attention.

 

[Silveryou]

This is another of the fantasy engravings by Piranesi. I have seen it multiple times without giving it a proper look. It's called "Antiquus Bivi Viarum Appiae Et Ardeatinae Prospectus Ad II Lapidem Extra Portam Capenam" (roughly: "Ancient crossroad between the Appian Way and Ardeatina road. Perspective from the second milestone outside Porta Capena"). Once again the Appian Way, once again Porta Capena (Porta Capena - Wikipedia).

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This time though the point of view of the author is the opposite compared to the first engraving discussed, with the Circus Maximus and Palatine Hill behind his back. On the right it is represented Via Ardeatina (Via Ardeatina - Wikipedia), another "ancient" Roman road which started from the Appian Way, apparently at the second mile from the centre of Rome. The modern Via Ardeatina is said to have a different initial path, but is not difficult to understand what the ancient road here represented is called today.

The initial path of Via Ardeatina ran alongside the Servian Wall (Servian Wall - Wikipedia) outside of Porta Capena and nowadays is named "Viale Guido Baccelli". At the convergence of the Appian and Ardeatina (now Viale delle Terme di Caracalla and Viale Guido Baccelli) we can find a sort of memorial with an inscription which I can't read (neither you). I have found no information and no image on the internet apart from this one "captured" by myself from GoogleMaps but I wonder if it has something to do with the "lapidem" described by Piranesi as the epigraph to the tombstone of the Scipiones (Cornelia gens - Wikipedia) or the second milestone.

This milestone is an interesting aspect in itself, because we have no clue of the exact measure equivalent to a Roman mile. It is empirically estimated to have been around 1.481 meters (1,620 yards, 4,860 English feet, 0.92 English miles); compared with a modern mile, which is 5280 feet (Roman mile - Wiktionary). Therefore two Roman miles should have been equivalent to 2.962 meters (9.720 feet). In "ancient" Rome, the count of miles started from the Milliarium Aureum (Milliarium Aureum - Wikipedia) located in the Temple of Saturn in the Roman Forum, but it is apparent that this measure does not fit with the real distance between the two points.

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We can see that the best case scenario gives us roughly 1.490 meters for two miles, not one (it would have been perfect in that case). That means 745 meters (2.444 feet) was possibly the value of one Roman mile. But what about the distance from the Vatican (considering the direct path supposed in the previous post)?

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3.500 meters for two miles means 1.750 meters (5.741 feet) for one Roman mile. Is it better? Is the Vatican the real Temple of Saturn?

Anyway the most famous ruins in this part of Rome are certainly the Baths of Caracalla (Baths of Caracalla - Wikipedia), which placed in between the two roads, would be covered by the buildings at the forefront of the engraving. And what do you see behind these buildings? A huge pyramid, obviously!

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By the way, the Umbilicus Urbis Romae (Umbilicus urbis Romae - Wikipedia), "Navel of the City of Rome" was the symbolic centre of the city. This word sounds similar to obelisk. Could St. Peter's Square (St. Peter's Square - Wikipedia) be considered the centre of the city and the world? Urbi et Orbi (Urbi et Orbi - Wikipedia)!!! Obelisk or Umbilicus?

 

[veeall]

But if all of this is true, then the enormous palace behind the Palace of Domitian should be a representation of the famous Domus Aurea (Domus Aurea - Wikipedia) built by the Emperor Nero and said to be a vast landscaped palace!!! It is placed exactly in the position where it should have been, where the Colosseum is located nowadays.

There's engraving of Colosseum attributed to Piranesi. Just judging by the city map the Colosseum shouldn't be visible in the engraving (?).

Fascinating to read the translation of the title of the engravings, they basically claim the depicted views being non-fictional.

 

[Silveryou]

Fascinating to read the translation of the title of the engravings, they basically claim the depicted views being non-fictional.

Yes. We can say that even if these buildings could be just a fantasy reconstruction by Piranesi, the location is not a fantasy at all. It is baffling to me that no one has apparently ever come up with these simple observations. After my first post I have searched on some Italian websites to see if someone has some clue about this stuff and I have found that even though sometimes someone shows knowledge of the location (only about the Circus Maximus, by the way), no one investigates futher. I bet there are lots of things to search...

There's engraving of Colosseum attributed to Piranesi. Just judging by the city map the Colosseum shouldn't be visible in the engraving (?).

The funny thing is that the Domus Aurea and the Colosseum are mutually exclusive, because it is said that the Colosseum was built in place of a truly enormous statue of Nero (Colossus of Nero - Wikipedia). I think this statue would fit well in these engravings. Just look at the abundance of statues, busts and heads of enormous dimensions in all these "fantasy" pictures. So I think that Piranesi had some accurate informations to do his thing, and even though he could have something wrong, his work should be considered with great attention.

 

[Silveryou]

"The Prisons (Carceri d'invenzione or Imaginary Prisons) is a series of 16 prints by the Italian artist Giovanni Battista Piranesi in the 18th century. They depict enormous subterranean vaults with stairs and mighty machines." (Imaginary Prisons - Wikipedia)

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Where these prisons were supposed to be, besides the chaotic mind of our dear artist? We are obviously talking about an underground setting here, but we can maybe deduce the location from some details. First of all, let's say that the word prisons translates as carceri in Italian and carceres in Latin. Today we are shown places of "ancient" Rome which somehow represent these prisons, like the modest Mamertine Prison (Mamertine Prison - Wikipedia), behind San Giuseppe dei Falegnami church.

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But if there is a thing everyone knows from history books, novels, movies and so on, is that Rome was built upon slave labour. Slaves were everywhere but in prison: in the houses of the nobility (working as barbers, butlers, cooks, hairdressers...), in urban workplaces (fullers, engravers, shoemakers, bakers...), in farms, mines, quarries and, most importantly, circuses (Slavery in ancient Rome - Wikipedia). Is it just a coincidence the similarity between the words circus and carcerem? Can we find a connection of sort?

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In the image above we can see a modern reconstruction of the carceres of Circus Maximus, complete with its track-side seatings upon them, which form a slope with a certain degree. Where did we see that slope?

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What is hidden under Palatine Hill? With an height of 40 meters (131 feet), the fantasy prisons of Piranesi would certainly fit beneath it. It would be interesting to understand what type of job these slaves/gladiators/prisoners did in those prisons/carceres/circuses. What kind of purpose those "engines and machinery, wheels, cables, pulleys, levers, catapults, etc." depicted by Piranesi in his 16 capricci above were supposed to serve?

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"In 1852 a gas works was built on the site by the Anglo-Italian Gas Society. It remained in situ until 1910 when it was relocated to the edge of Rome." (Circus Maximus - Wikipedia)

 

[EUAFU]

Excellent topic and subsequent posts also.

You are true researchers.

 

[veeall]

I've been looking into these Carcere engravings, and what stands out for me are:

very undisciplined strokes compared to other engravings of Piranesi (attributed to illness)
ropes and hooks and some structures are drawn over others as afterthoughts
absurdity of a proposal as concept-prisons
few are actually aboveground 'street' views of a city

They seem as discarded mediocre scetches later decorated with torture machinery. The additions in the second edition is drawn with the same clumsy hand. Originally we see some colonnade with an obelisk in the middle:

Maybe they are forgeries, and Piranesi was not a fantasy-artist.
Other Piranesi engravings are of higher quality.
A structure drawn from two different angles.

Buried structures (not related, but just interesting).

 

[Silveryou]

few are actually aboveground 'street' views of a city

True. I'll look for this bell tower. I wonder if these "Prisons (Carceri d'invenzione or Imaginary Prisons)" were really intended by the author as a series in itself or if his reviewers compiled it to add more confusion.

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absurdity of a proposal as concept-prisons

This kind of argument I thought it was used to discard these engravings so that no one go and see what they represent. They have done a good job because knowing how many Roman nationalists live in Rome, I think they would talk about this every day (I am repenting for what I am doing).

Anyway, in the past days I've seen a lot of different versions of the same engravings. Apparently they did many copies in which some details were changed, expecially the writings and symbols. As for the fantasy landscapes there are only two possibilities, after having established that the locations are real. The first is that Piranesi was reconstructing something ancient based on his knowledge of the past (and obviously enriching his work with catchy details), the second (I don't believe that) is that these engravings were much older and then attributed to him to hide them in plain sight. As for the engravings of ruins, they are used by mainstream people without a problem because they are "harmless".

 

[veeall]

Of course i'm no expert, but here what i had in mind when talking about 'undisciplined strokes'. Normal clouds:

clouds in Carcere:

He is very precise and without redundancy even in the darkest of shadows, what made him change his style so much in Carcere series?

Just two pompous interiors:

So if they were like this due to sickness, then maybe the second and successive editions of these works should be more in-line with authors usual handwriting, but it doesn't seem to be so. Not knowing the period the engravings below were made, but both source and the cropped motive still exhibits these loose strokes.

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In Athens: While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols.

Lol, how much is 'full', and which of those are idols?

 

[Silveryou]

Yes I noticed. I had to choose the clearest images for the presentations.

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Here you can see three different types of the same engraving with the last two evidently fakes. If you see them side by side you can spot the fake, otherwise it is very difficult to tell.

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In Athens: While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols.

I like these engravings because they talk about that lost world. It seems to me that they want us to think these are all fantasies at all costs.

 

[daniloscarinci]

In the past days, while searching KD's blog (Section listhttps://www.stolenhistory.org/articles/the-ptb-history-fabrication-tools.480/#post-509), I found a very interesting engraving by Piranesi (Giovanni Battista Piranesi - Wikipedia) that can possibly reveal some information on the past of the city of Rome. It's called "Antiquus Circi Martial. Cum Monum. Adiacentia Prospectus Ad Viam Appiam" (roughly: "Ancient Martial Circus with Monuments. Perspective near the Appian Way") and it is supposed to be a fantasy by the author.

View attachment 5491​

What struck me was that strange and unusual line of obelisks and bizarre structures in the middle of the engraving. I recognised immediately the typical spina (Roman circus - Wikipedia) of the hippodromes of the past. Here below is represented the Hippodrome of Constantinople with its spina.

View attachment 5492
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"Circi" is obviously a Roman circus. The word "Martial" reminds me the Campus Martius, while the Appian Way (Appian Way - Wikipedia) is a famous Italian and Roman landmark. The Campus Martius was located north of the Capitoline Hill (Capitoline Hill - Wikipedia), while the Appian Way began its course near Porta Capena, a gate in the Servian Wall which was near the Circus Maximus (Circus Maximus - Wikipedia), the hippodrome of Rome, located south of the Palatine Hill (Palatine Hill - Wikipedia). I think this last is the optimal position if Piranesi engraved something really existing.

View attachment 5493
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It seems that Piranesi's point of view was near Porta Capena and therefore the palaces represented should be those on the Palatine Hill.

View attachment 5517View attachment 5495
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The central palace in Piranesi's painting could be the Palace of Domitian (Palace of Domitian - Wikipedia) composed by the Domus Flavia, the Domus Augustana and the garden or "stadium".

View attachment 5496
View attachment 5497View attachment 5498
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Could this palace be represented on the Hereford map (Hereford Mappa Mundi - Wikipedia) to symbolize Rome?

View attachment 5505
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But if all of this is true, then the enormous palace behind the Palace of Domitian should be a representation of the famous Domus Aurea (Domus Aurea - Wikipedia) built by the Emperor Nero and said to be a vast landscaped palace!!! It is placed exactly in the position where it should have been, where the Colosseum is located nowadays.

View attachment 5499View attachment 5500
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If we assume that Piranesi was representing Rome, then there are a lot of things to add. In the painting we can clearly see how the Appian way and the Circus Maximus are the same. The road doesn't end or begin near the circus but it continues in the distance with other palaces and also two pyramids on the right (if we imagine to walk in that direction). I have prolonged the hypothetical Appian Way on the map of Rome in the same direction indicated by Piranesi and the result is quite interesting.

View attachment 5501
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As you can see the road hits perfectly the Vatican on the top left of the map! But this is not all. This road overlaps with the course of the Tiber River and in particular it entirely encomprises Tiber Island (Tiber Island - Wikipedia).

View attachment 5502
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I have circled in red Pons Cestius (Pons Cestius - Wikipedia), an "ancient" Roman bridge, while in blue the Great Synagogue of Rome (Great Synagogue of Rome - Wikipedia). Now more or less in the position of the blue circle in Piranesi's painting we see a pyramid, the first one on the right! One could say that there is no certainty that the pyramid was placed there, but there is a very peculiar particular: the name of the bridge! Isn't it strange that the bridge is named after the same family that gave its name to to the Pyramid of Cestius (Pyramid of Cestius - Wikipedia), built for Gaius Cestius Epulo? Should it be surprising to have a Great Synagogue in the same place where a pyramid stood?

View attachment 5503View attachment 5504
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I think this gens Cestia (Cestia gens - Wikipedia) is one of those families to research with great attention.

This is the kind of research we need more here at SH. It could be wrong, but this methodology will take us somewhere. I totally respect everyone's religions, but if one selects only facts or evidences that go along with what their religion states, they'll only please their mind and not get closer to the truth (which , of course, is unattainable). Congrats!

 

[Silveryou]

In the image above we can see a modern reconstruction of the carceres of Circus Maximus, complete with its track-side seatings upon them, which form a slope with a certain degree.

First of all, for the sake of clarity, the carceres (Roman circus - Wikipedia) were not under the track-side seatings of the circus, because they were supposed to be the gates from which the chariots started their race (I didn't find the sources for these statements though, to see if these are modern deductions or have a foundation in some classic authors).

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These carceres were nonetheless next to the caveae (Cavea - Wikipedia), the tracksides of the circus, which on the Italian wiki are said to have been a term to designate the underground of those public spaces, and only later became the place where people sat to watch the races. Therefore we have a hint to the possibility that the word cavea was never used to describe the undergrounds “where the cages for the beasts” were placed, because the best name to give to those places with cages would have been carceres (prisons).

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These images above show the caveae of two Roman amphitheatres (the third being Circus Maximus) and on the wiki it is specified that caveae were the tracksides of theatres and amphitheatres, no circuses mentioned. But it is easy to see that the name was also used for circuses by looking at the description of Circus Maximus (Circus Maximus - Wikipedia). This to show how there is a sort of confusion on terminology, expecially when you see that the caveae (as tracksides) were used by the equites (Equites - Wikipedia), the knights, to watch horse-races! This confusion of terms and meanings is quite unique but not rare when we talk of “ancient” languages. Is it possible that the original meaning of certain words may have been changed on purpose? Anyway the images above resemble a lot the arches of Piranesi's prisons, and you can also see the lions!

One of the features of these circuses were the pulvinaria (Glossary of ancient Roman religion - Wikipedia), “a special couch used for displaying images of the gods, that they might receive offerings at ceremonies such as the lectisternium or supplicatio” and “At the Circus Maximus, the couches and images of the gods were placed on an elevated pulvinar to "watch" the games”. On the Italian wiki it is explicitly stated that the pulvinar was the seat of honour for the Emperor to watch the games.

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Is it possible to find the pulvinar in Piranesi's engravings? I would say yes!

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This is Sant'Anastasia al Palatino (Sant'Anastasia al Palatino - Wikipedia), a Roman Catholic basilica built in the late 3rd century AD - early 4th century AD. As the name suggests, it is located at the foot of Palatine Hill next to Circus Maximus. I had recently stated my suspicion in regard to the original function of the structure known today as Porta Nigra in Trier (Black Gate), but I probably have to reconsider my position (even though I am against the brutal destruction of the past to recover an even more ancient past). It seems to me that this church was a gate of sort too, as you can see in these images.

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And one can also say that a church could be considered a pulvinar, “a special couch used for displaying images of the gods, that they might receive offerings at ceremonies such as the lectisternium or supplicatio”. The relative position of the church and the ruins of the spina of Circus Maximus (if it was a circus in the first place!) is almost identical to that represented by Piranesi.

 

[Silveryou]

Considering Sant'Anastasia al Palatino as the pulvinar of Circus Maximus allows us to search for the other gate represented in the engraving. I previously stated (Ancient Rome according to Piranesi and others) that the Great Synagogue of Rome (Great Synagogue of Rome - Wikipedia) was placed where the pyramid once stood, but with a better look we can identify this synagogue with the gate near Pons Cestius and Tiber Island.

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"The present synagogue was constructed shortly after the unification of Italy in 1870, when the Kingdom of Italy captured Rome and the Papal States ceased to exist" (I didn't expect that, a real surprise...). "The building which had previously housed the ghetto synagogue, a complicated structure housing five scolas (the Italian-Jewish term for synagogues) in a single building was demolished" (never heard about scolas before but it is obviously way too similar to the word school, and on the Italian wiki they are called la Castigliana, la Catalana, la Siciliana, la Nova e l'Italiana... language schools?). Where these "complicated" scolas were located is not specified and in fact it's not clear to understand if these five scolas were in different parts of Rome or in a single building in the Roman ghetto, which was nearby the modern synagogue. We will see later where Piazza delle Cinque Scole (Cinque Scole Square) is nowadays. In the meantime we can see how the new buiding has overall retained the same shape of that on Piranesi's engraving, even though it is no more aligned to the hypotetical "ancient" road.

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In another interesting engraving by Piranesi we can see this "complicated" gate/temple in between the "ancient" Theater of Marcellus and Theatre of Balbus. The structure, with a perfect alignement to the imaginary road starting from Circus Maximus, has no name and I have not founded an explanatory image for the number 29 upon the building.

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While searching this topic I learned that Piranesi draw a map of Rome based upon a supposedly "ancient" marble map called Forma Urbis Romae (Forma Urbis Romae - Wikipedia). Here below we can see a piece of the presumed original with the word THEATRUM. Notice how the inscriptions copied by Piranesi are always written with great clarity, the words separated one from each other, and compare this style with the wordings on the Arch of Titus, in which words were written in a continuous line without gaps between words, as in the "fashion" of Roman inscriptions. "The Plan was gradually destroyed during the Middle Ages, with the marble stones being used as building materials or for making lime. In 1562, the young antiquarian sculptor Giovanni Antonio Dosio excavated fragments of the Forma Urbis from a site near the Church of SS. Cosma e Damiano, under the direction of the humanist condottiere Torquato Conti, who had purchased excavation rights from the canons of the church. Conti made a gift of the recovered fragments to Cardinal Alessandro Farnese, who entrusted them to his librarian Onofrio Panvinio and his antiquarian Fulvio Orsini."

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Rodolfo Amedeo Lanciani (Rodolfo Lanciani - Wikipedia) revised the map of "ancient" Rome (Forma Urbis Romae di Rodolfo Lanciani - Le LXVI tavole), giving it the same name, Forma Urbis Romae (just a coincidence), between 1893 and 1901 and bringing it to perfection: "a unique work within the genre". The strange building and the Theatre of Balbus are no more represented and we can clearly see in their place the "ancient" Roman Ghetto (Roman Ghetto - Wikipedia). The Great Synagogue of Rome was built from 1901 to 1904...

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Could the history of Rome have been manipulated two times, instead of one or zero (or three, who knows!)? The first one by the (possibly) new Christian faith during the 15th - 16th centuries, the other one being still very "fresh" (19th - 20th centuries)... and accomplished by whom (hehehehe )? I believe so. Maybe!

 

[veeall]

Probably due to my ignorance, but i could really lol about how these pieces are fit together. Especially the large chunk on left put on top of others.


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Is this also the site of Circo Massimo?

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Few more editions just for fun:

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[Silveryou]

Is this also the site of Circo Massimo?

Yes

Few more editions just for fun

hahaha. I'll edit with my face next time

 

[Safranek]

Conti made a gift of the recovered fragments to Cardinal Alessandro Farnese, who entrusted them to his librarian Onofrio Panvinio and his antiquarian Fulvio Orsini

What a nice reliable lot we have here. At least 3 of those are 'black nobility' families; Conti, Farnese and Orsini all having popes and cardinals in the family. If these guys are messing with the antiquities we can certainly assume a massive effort at deception. Why are we not surprised when our historical info comes from the top deceivers?

Just a few examples:

During the Middle Ages, the Conti were notable, including four who became popes:

• Pope Innocent III (1160 or 1161 – 16 July 1216), born Lotario de' Conti, was the head of the Catholic Church from 8 January 1198 to his death in 1216.[2]
• Pope Gregory IX (1227–1241), born Ugolino di Conti[3]
• Pope Alexander IV (1254–1261), born Rinaldo di Conti[4]
• Pope Innocent XIII (1721–1724), born Michelangelo di Conti[5]

List of popes from the Conti family - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

_______________________________________________

Pope Paul III (Latin: Paulus Tertius; February 29, 1468 – November 10, 1549), born Alessandro Farnese, was an Italian priest of the Roman Catholic Church and the 221st Pope from 1534 to 1549.[1]

_______________________________________________

Orsini popes

• Pope Celestine III (Giacinto Bobone, created cardinal in 1144)
• Pope Nicholas III (Giovanni Gaetano Orsini, created cardinal in 1244)
• Pope Benedict XIII (Pietro Francesco Orsini, created cardinal in 1672)

The Orsini family also produced 34 Cardinals of the Roman Church and many other important political and religious people.

House of Orsini - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

simple.wikipedia.org

_____________________________________________

When you check on the level of corruption of some of these popes it makes you wonder how the Vatican can still have so many followers.

 

[Silveryou]

Conti made a gift of the recovered fragments to Cardinal Alessandro Farnese, who entrusted them to his librarian Onofrio Panvinio and his antiquarian Fulvio Orsini

What a nice reliable lot we have here. At least 3 of those are 'black nobility' families; Conti, Farnese and Orsini all having popes and cardinals in the family. If these guys are messing with the antiquities we can certainly assume a massive effort at deception. Why are we not surprised when our historical info comes from the top deceivers?

Just a few examples:

During the Middle Ages, the Conti were notable, including four who became popes:

• Pope Innocent III (1160 or 1161 – 16 July 1216), born Lotario de' Conti, was the head of the Catholic Church from 8 January 1198 to his death in 1216.[2]
• Pope Gregory IX (1227–1241), born Ugolino di Conti[3]
• Pope Alexander IV (1254–1261), born Rinaldo di Conti[4]
• Pope Innocent XIII (1721–1724), born Michelangelo di Conti[5]

List of popes from the Conti family - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

_______________________________________________

Pope Paul III (Latin: Paulus Tertius; February 29, 1468 – November 10, 1549), born Alessandro Farnese, was an Italian priest of the Roman Catholic Church and the 221st Pope from 1534 to 1549.[1]

_______________________________________________

Orsini popes

• Pope Celestine III (Giacinto Bobone, created cardinal in 1144)
• Pope Nicholas III (Giovanni Gaetano Orsini, created cardinal in 1244)
• Pope Benedict XIII (Pietro Francesco Orsini, created cardinal in 1672)

The Orsini family also produced 34 Cardinals of the Roman Church and many other important political and religious people.

House of Orsini - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

simple.wikipedia.org

_____________________________________________

When you check on the level of corruption of some of these popes it makes you wonder how the Vatican can still have so many followers.

I would take all these dates, characters and stories as a big question mark though! I bet the Vatican is not a monolithic power representing one side for all these centuries. It seems to me that there are a lot of layers to the story. Anyway I was thinking about the Conti in particular in these days because they are said to be the owners and builders of these two towers which are very interesting.

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They are called Torre dei Conti (Torre dei Conti - Wikipedia) and Torre delle Milizie (Torre delle Milizie - Wikipedia) and they are said to be medieval fortresses. Their position falls almost perfectly in the area once occupied by the Domus Aurea as represented by Piranesi (my interpretation obviously), expecially Torre dei Conti.

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It seems to me that these "towers" could actually be what remains of the cyclopic columns of the Domus Aurea and that the access to this building from the main road was between Palatine Hill (on the right) and Capitoline Hill (on the left). You can see in Piranesi's picture the stairs apparently going down between the two hills/palaces.

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And the details of Torre dei Conti are interesting if compared to Piranesi's engraving, with those particular "vertical channels" (!?!?! - I am not an architect). Were these towers simply the columns of the Domus Aurea?

 

[Silveryou]

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We are now looking for the pyramid. We have seen that its most probable location was somewhere behind the "gate" corresponding to the modern Great Synagogue. In the proximity the most famous building is certainly the Pantheon (Pantheon, Rome - Wikipedia), which I think it is represented in front of the pyramid. Or maybe not?

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If we assume the distance between the gates as almost identical, we can try to locate the third gate that we see in the distance.

​

The "gate" is no more there, but we see a street, Via dei Baullari, that leads us to an important roman square, Campo de' Fiori. The position of the pyramid relatively to that of the "second" and "third" gates is therefore quite difficult to ascertain and therefore its position in present Rome could be anywhere from the proximity of the Pantheon (even above it) to the river Tiber. It is however noteworthy that this area has the higher density of Egyptian/Roman obelisks/columns: the Obelisco agonale (Obelisco Agonale - Wikipedia), the Column of Marcus Aurelius (Column of Marcus Aurelius - Wikipedia), the Obelisk of Montecitorio (Obelisk of Montecitorio - Wikipedia), the Elephant and Obelisk (Elephant and Obelisk - Wikipedia) and the Obelisco del Pantheon (Obelisco del Pantheon - Wikipedia).

 

[Forrest]

Pyramid of Cestius - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The origins of the pyramid were forgotten during the Middle Ages. " The inscriptions are above dirt level, how could it be missed?
Notice dirt level, over 15' deep.

"Its true provenance was clarified by Pope Alexander VII's excavations in the 1660s, which cleared the vegetation that had overgrown the pyramid, uncovered the inscriptions on its faces" -wiki
So they had to excavate in order to clear vegetation? Nobody thought to brush aside the plants and read the large inscriptions before 1660? Then the plants grew back again for Piranesi?

The pinecones in the Piranesi drawing are a real thing. "Legend has it" the Vatican pinecone, Fontana della Pigna - Wikipedia , was in a fountain next to the Pantheon. There's another one, um-

"There is another fountain known as Fontana della Pigna in Rimini, Italy, also of Ancient Roman origin but heavily restored. The pine cone sculpture crowning this fountain was only installed in 1807, replacing a 16th-century statue of St. Paul damaged by the Napoleonic army."

There are several Roman pyramids in this old map-

 

[Silveryou]

"The origins of the pyramid were forgotten during the Middle Ages. " The inscriptions are above dirt level, how could it be missed?
Notice dirt level, over 15' deep.

haha yeah! There's something really off with this pyramid. The fact that the bridge leading to Piranesi's pyramid is named after the Cestiuses is strange and it is strange that no informations remain of this family. But for me the most crazy thing of all is that it was included in the Aurelian Walls (Aurelian Walls - Wikipedia)! How can you decide to do it! What kind of tactician/strategist would ever do something so stupid! I don't even want to go and search what explanation they have come up because I'm sure it's cringy as Hell.

There are several Roman pyramids in this old map-

This map is fantastic. Can you give me the link?