Ancient Rome according to Piranesi and others

Silveryou

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When I wrote this post (Ancient Rome according to Piranesi and others) I was aware of the fact that in the caption below Piranesi's engraving it was stated (at number 1) that there was a representation of the Tomb of the Scipios (Tomb of the Scipios - Wikipedia), which is located nowadays somewhat to the South-East compared to the position given by me. What convinced me to suppose a new location was the presence of a milestone in the picture indicating the second mile “Extra Portam Capenam”. I assumed that it was just a description of where the milestone was located (near Porta Capena) and that the count of miles would have started at the Milliarium Aureum. The other possible interpretation being that this was the second mile from Porta Capena. If we look at the shape of the crossroads, the South-Eastern location fits well with Piranesi's engraving as much as my own, even if the Tomb of the Scipios is not quite visible (but I didn't find the number 1 of the caption corresponding to the Tomb in any of the various copies of this engraving, so it was impossible to ascertain its position even in my own location). Here below I have called my first choice with number 1 and the “South-Eastern” with number 2. While in the first case scenario we had Viale delle Terme di Caracalla in the role of the Appian way and Viale Guido Baccelli in that of Via Ardeatina, we now have Via di Porta San Sebastiano (Appian Way) and the same Viale delle Terme di Caracalla in its new role as Via Ardeatina.

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But while I was searching for more informations to add, I found out that the Circus of Maxentius (Circus of Maxentius - Wikipedia), known until the 19th century as the Circus of Caracalla, is situated between the second and third miles of the Appian Way, with the tomb of Caecilia Metella (Tomb of Caecilia Metella - Wikipedia) as the three mile marker of the same road. We obviously have a representation of both by Piranesi.

Circo_di_Caracalla_(19722137788).jpg
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Wait a second! Between the second and third miles? Let's do a recap to better understand the problem. We have on one side a circus named after Maxentius which was previously known as Circus of Caracalla placed between the second and third miles of the Appian Way, and on the other side we have an engraving by Piranesi which represents the second milestone outside Porta Capena and in any case near the Baths of Caracalla (whether we consider option 1 or 2 as previously described, it doesn't affect the general concept). Instinct would tell to search for the Circus of Caracalla near the baths of the same name! So why did historians choose a far away location and rename the circus?

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First of all we should measure the distance between the supposed second mile (in both its supposed locations) and the third mile.

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The distance is about 3.750 meters (12.303 feet) for the short distance and 4.350 meters (14.272 feet) for the longest. This is too much for the current “scientific” theory which asserts that a Roman mile “is empirically estimated to have been around 1,481 meters (1,620 yards, 4,860 English feet, 0.92 English miles); compared with a modern mile, which is 5280 feet” (Roman mile - Wiktionary). I have not found the calculations used by historians to determine the position of the milestones and their distance from the Milliarium Aureum, the point from which every measure started in “ancient” Rome (Milliarium Aureum - Wikipedia), but we can try to figure out something. We subtract 1.481 meters starting from the tomb of Caecilia Metella and going in the direction of Rome on the Appian Way, searching for the hypothetic second milestone. What do we find?

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Nothing! Maybe time (2.000 years they say), weather, wars and tourists made the milestone disappear. Who knows! Let's try now doubling the measure (2.962 meters – 9.718 feet).

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Bingo! Porta San Sebastiano (Porta San Sebastiano - Wikipedia), “originally known as the Porta Appia, the gate sat astride the Appian Way, the regina viarum (queen of the roads), which originated at the Porta Capena in the Servian Wall”. What do we find near this gate? A copy made in 1910 of the first milestone of the Appian Way, founded in 1584 and standing in the right-hand boundary wall 100 meters after Porta San Sebastiano (Prima colonna miliaria - Sito ufficiale Parco Archeologico dell'Appia Antica - no English translations whatsoever, by the way). The first mile apparently stopped here from Porta Capena.

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Turning a blind eye on the 117 meters difference, we can anyway make a first statement: the choise to have the beginning of the counting of miles from outside Porta Capena directly contradicts the purpose of the Milliarium Aureum. “All roads were considered to begin at this monument and all distances in the Roman Empire were measured relative to it” (Cassius Dio 54.8.4; Plutarch, Galba 24.7; Pliny, Naturalis Historia 3.66; Tacitus, Historiae 1.27; Suetonius, Otho 6.2. - Milliarium Aureum - Wikipedia). What do historians use instead to support their claim? “According to a vague sentence by Pliny the Elder (Naturalis Historia, 3.66), the distances in Roman miles were measured starting from the city gates and not from the location of the Milliarium” (Milliarium Aureum - Wikipedia). A “vague sentence” which can be also used to validate the Milliarium Aureum as the centre of Rome, as you can see above! But let's continue our research and see if we can find traces of the particular crossroad depicted by Piranesi in this new scenario.

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Is it a joke? This is the same shape of the crossroad in the engraving, and that is Via Ardeatina! How can it be? It seems a joke to me and here is why (Via Ardeatina - Wikipedia – no English for you, my friends eheh). You can use your Google translate to obtain this: “Ancient itinerary - The Via Ardeatina separated from the Via Appia a short distance from the city and passed through the localities known today as Tor Marancia and Cecchignola until it reached the Solfarata , at the time a pool of cold sulphurous waters 15 Roman miles from the city. From here, the road proceeded towards Ardea with a path identical to that followed by the modern road”. What does it mean? We don't need to follow all the itinerary of the ancient road. The beginning will be enough (Tor Marancia).

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I have indicated with numbers 1 and 2 my hypotetical reconstructions as mentioned before. You can see the hypotetical path of the “ancient” Via Ardeatina passing through Tor Marancia, but what his the name of the gate through which the road passes? Porta Ardeatina (Porta Ardeatina - Wikipedia)!!

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So in the end, it seems to me that there is a deliberate effort to hide the original locations and replace them with new and similar ones. The reproduction of the same shape of the crossroad between the modern Via Ardeatina and the Appian Way is too much.

Now the task is to calculate the Roman mile and searching for the Circus of Caracalla...
 
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Forrest

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Finally tracked down the fantastic map by searching on Antique Urbis Romae Ligorio Pirro map

Pirro Ligorio - Wikipedia "Pirro Ligorio (c. 1512—October 30, 1583) ... worked as the Vatican's Papal Architect under Popes Paul IV and Pius IV...
" Ligorio's employment at the Vatican was briefly interrupted in the summer of 1565 when he was imprisoned for one week. Allegedly, he had committed fraud by stealing building materials during several of his papal architectural projects. He was investigated extensively and had his writings removed. He was released with little incident, aside from having medallions worth six thousand scudi removed from his possession. Accusations like these, however, did not help Ligorio's already controversial fame and earlier allegations of forgery against him. "

"Jul 19, 2020 - In 1551, Pirro Ligorio produced an engraving depicting a reconstruction of ancient Rome; this inventive map was printed by Jacopo Rossi in 1561. Pirro Ligorio was an architect, a painter, a counterfeiter and a scholar" Pirro Ligorio’s “Antiquae Urbis Romae Imago” (Image of the Ancient... | Rome map, Ancient, Ancient cities

Piranesi looks like he was a company with a number of apprentices and assistants, judging by the work product. One of them- say Piranesi- had an extreme and rare ability to visualize with precision in three dimensions, beyond Da Vinci's or Michelangelo's, for example. The Pontiff Maximus (the Pope) evidently hired him, in 1748 by the printed date, just as with Ligorio earlier, to make an accurate map of Rome.
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The above it the title or description of this map. It's tedious to translate into English, but might be worth it. At the bottom is a scale of some sort, maybe related to the Roman mile-
piraneci role scale.png
 
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Silveryou

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Thank you. I had found some stuff by myself but didn't have time to look at it properly. Anyway it seems to me that the 16th century for Rome is the century in which everything was turned upside down. I am finding so many dates and clues in these days that I find difficult to clear my mind and write something.
Piranesi looks like he was a company with a number of apprentices and assistants, judging by the work product.
He had also a son who did the same job of his dad and took an interest in the Circus of Caracalla (Francesco Piranesi - Wikipedia).
 
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Forrest

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Thank you. I had found some stuff by myself but didn't have time to look at it properly. Anyway it seems to me that the 16th century for Rome is the century in which everything was turned upside down. I am finding so many dates and clues in these days that I find difficult to clear my mind and write something.
Piranesi looks like he was a company with a number of apprentices and assistants, judging by the work product.
He had also a son who did the same job of his dad and took an interest in the Circus of Caracalla (Francesco Piranesi - Wikipedia).
Fyi, I have here a tab still open from a couple days ago- Circus of Maxentius - Infogalactic: the planetary knowledge core
The features on these maps, they shift around, they come and go, sometimes intact, sometimes in ruins, renamed, re-purposed, made up, and almost forgotten. It's a sort of board game trying to sort it out.
 

Silveryou

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The above it the title or description of this map. It's tedious to translate into English, but might be worth it. At the bottom is a scale of some sort, maybe related to the Roman mile-
The first is just Piranesi thanking his client, cardinal Alessandro Albani. The second is the title of that engraving.

But I find interesting the names given to the cardinal: "Emo e Rmo Principe". It reminds me Romulus and Remus, the first being the founder of Rome. I've just googled it without finding any kind of explanation except one interesting detail... It was frequently used for Cardinal Enea Silvio Piccolomini (Pope Pius II) which had the same name of the ancestor of the twins who escaped from Troy... I mean Aeneas escaped:LOL:

Wait. Yes it's a scale of sort. I'm gonna look at it.

That Enea Silvio Piccolomini is not the one who became Pope though, but another less famous who lived in the 18th century (Enea Silvio Piccolomini (cardinale) - Wikipedia)... strange
 
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Forrest

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The above it the title or description of this map. It's tedious to translate into English, but might be worth it. At the bottom is a scale of some sort, maybe related to the Roman mile-
The first is just Piranesi thanking his client, cardinal Alessandro Albani. The second is the title of that engraving.

But I find interesting the names given to the cardinal: "Emo e Rmo Principe". It reminds me Romulus and Remus, the first being the founder of Rome. I've just googled it without finding any kind of explanation except one interesting detail... It was frequently used for Cardinal Enea Silvio Piccolomini (Pope Pius II) which had the same name of the ancestor of the twins who escaped from Troy... I mean Aeneas escaped:LOL:

Wait. Yes it's a scale of sort. I'm gonna look at it.
Thank you. Another rabbit hole, sadly off topic- Alessandro Albani - Infogalactic: the planetary knowledge core
"Alessandro's father, Orazio, was the brother of Pope Clement XI ... Albani developed into one of the most astute antiquarians of his day, an arbiter of taste in the appreciation of Roman sculpture, and "a powerful and enterprising collector of Roman antiquities and patron of the arts... He used both ancient and modern art as a form of cultural capital," Seymour Howard observed,[3] "giving away acquisitions as favours and selling them for perpetually needed funds or when they lost efficacy for him." " Sounds like a forger.
He also funded Anton Raphael Mengs - Wikipedia , who has an interesting memorial in Rome Anton Raphael Mengs - Wikipedia
For additional entertainment, Mengs painted The Triumph of History over Time on the ceiling Vatican Library
 
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Silveryou

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The above it the title or description of this map. It's tedious to translate into English, but might be worth it. At the bottom is a scale of some sort, maybe related to the Roman mile-
The first is just Piranesi thanking his client, cardinal Alessandro Albani. The second is the title of that engraving.

But I find interesting the names given to the cardinal: "Emo e Rmo Principe". It reminds me Romulus and Remus, the first being the founder of Rome. I've just googled it without finding any kind of explanation except one interesting detail... It was frequently used for Cardinal Enea Silvio Piccolomini (Pope Pius II) which had the same name of the ancestor of the twins who escaped from Troy... I mean Aeneas escaped:LOL:

Wait. Yes it's a scale of sort. I'm gonna look at it.
Thank you. Another rabbit hole, sadly off topic- Alessandro Albani - Infogalactic: the planetary knowledge core
"Alessandro's father, Orazio, was the brother of Pope Clement XI ... Albani developed into one of the most astute antiquarians of his day, an arbiter of taste in the appreciation of Roman sculpture, and "a powerful and enterprising collector of Roman antiquities and patron of the arts... He used both ancient and modern art as a form of cultural capital," Seymour Howard observed,[3] "giving away acquisitions as favours and selling them for perpetually needed funds or when they lost efficacy for him." " Sounds like a forger.
He also funded Anton Raphael Mengs - Wikipedia , who has an interesting memorial in Rome Anton Raphael Mengs - Wikipedia
It sounds like it. But was it? Piranesi is giving us some precious info, sponsored by Albani... Maybe his biography was written by his enemies? That's another rabbit hole!
 

Silveryou

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This one is apparently 1550
Here Porta Capena is depicted where is Porta San Sebastiano, previously known as Porta Appia. It seems a fake to me, expecially after all the talk in these posts...:ROFLMAO:, and also by seeing where it comes from😒

Anyway, here below is a famous painting by François Dubois, "Le Massacre de la Saint-Barthélemy". Am I the only one seeing a circus-hippodrome in this picture, with its carceres and spina? How many massacres happened in these hippodromes and why cavalry is always involved? There's something really odd with the conventional narrative...

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Here below Giorgio Vasari's "First and Second Night of Saint Bartholomew" (1573 - commissioned by Pope Gregory XIII). Look at the "ancient" Roman fashion, especially in the second one. And also the building in the background (in the second one) is incredibly similar to the first building of the "spina" in "Le Massacre de la Saint-Barthélemy" by François Dubois (the previous painting).

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Silveryou

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If you want to know how myths are created out of thin air you just have to come to Italy. Yesterday I posted about the possible duplication of places (Ancient Rome according to Piranesi and others) and today, after digging a little bit more, I have found other informations regarding the milestones and the nonsense produced by historians.

First of all some geography. In the actual city of Rome exist two roads with the name Ardeatina. One is called Viale di Porta Ardeatina, which runs along the Aurelian Wall near Porta Ardeatina, and the other is Via Ardeatina (the new one) which we have seen in the previous post and proceeding from the Appian Way (creating another duplicate of the ancient crossroad).

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The Italian wiki (Via Ardeatina - Wikipedia – here translated) says: “Modern itinerary - Born as a branch of the Via Appia Antica , it originates from the latter at Porta Ardeatina and extends for several kilometers in the territory of the homonymous park”. FALSE. As you can see in the image below the modern road begins 1.220 meters (4.003 feet) after Porta Ardeatina and is not aligned with it (a proof that it is not the original one).

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The modern myth in question is spreading through Italian blogs and websites (Il primo miglio della Via Appia, un luogo strettamente connesso con le origini mitiche dell’Urbe - Capitolivm; Una camminata da antichi romani sull’Appia Antica; La "Regina Viarum": la via Appia Antica (II e III miglio)) probably after the publication of a book (Il paesaggio della Via Appia ai confini dell'Urbs) in which it is stated that the supposed first Roman mile (assumed to be marked by the milestone outside Porta San Sebastiano due to some evident error, as we have seen in the previous post), can be nonchalantly be considered the church of Santa Maria in Palmis too, also known as Chiesa del Domine Quo Vadis (Santa Maria in Palmis - Wikipedia), due to the uncertainty in the measure of the Roman mile itself. I don't know what kind of acrobatic reasoning is done in that book but the location of this church is quite interesting. We have seen that Porta Capena magically transforms into Porta San Sebastiano and the crossroad between the Appian Way and Via Ardeatina has been magically dislocated from the vicinity of the Baths of Caracalla to the Roman countryside. The first milestone (second one in Piranesi's engraving, due to the fact that the count of miles began at the Milliarium Aureum) changed location as well from the whereabouts of Porta Capena to the whereabouts of Porta San Sebastiano and now it has become a church, no milestones needed anymore! So... where is this church?

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Oh no! Again!!! At this point the question is clear... Is all of this just a coincidence or is it an intended attempt to hide something? I bet in the future they will find some “ancient” ruins of a gate nearby and they will call it “Porta Capena”.
 
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Bitbybit

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Thank you. I had found some stuff by myself but didn't have time to look at it properly. Anyway it seems to me that the 16th century for Rome is the century in which everything was turned upside down. I am finding so many dates and clues in these days that I find difficult to clear my mind and write something.
Perhaps a year ago i read some old depictions of Rome, alleged to be written around 1500s. And in that authors eyes, Rome had been largely evacuated a time ago or people have died, and Rome was repopulated within the old ruins. It could've been the black plague. I have thought of that texts for many times, but i cant remember how i found it.

I am still trying to figure out what grecoroman-architecture in Rome/mediterreana are really ancient, what was renovated, and what was copied.
 

Silveryou

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Even in history books it is said that Rome went from 1.000.000 citizens to 50.000. But the possibility of an entire substitution is entirely possible and I am totally sure that Romans of today have nothing to do with those of antiquity (or anyway very little to do with them).

I am still trying to figure out what grecoroman-architecture in Rome/mediterreana are really ancient, what was renovated, and what was copied.
Yes. I think it has become the entire objective of this thread. The mysterious disappearance and lack of testimonies (modern and ancient) for this road Ardeatina and the extraordinary coincidence of the same shape of crossroads with the same names subsequently changed is quite astonishing!
 

Safranek

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Even in history books it is said that Rome went from 1.000.000 citizens to 50.000. But the possibility of an entire substitution is entirely possible and I am totally sure that Romans of today have nothing to do with those of antiquity (or anyway very little to do with them).

I am still trying to figure out what grecoroman-architecture in Rome/mediterreana are really ancient, what was renovated, and what was copied.
Yes. I think it has become the entire objective of this thread. The mysterious disappearance and lack of testimonies (modern and ancient) for this road Ardeatina and the extraordinary coincidence of the same shape of crossroads with the same names subsequently changed is quite astonishing!
I can't quote any references at the moment but I read some sources where all the 'architecture' or Rome and most of Italy was attributed to the Etruscans. I think it may have been Mario Alinei's work.


And this from the Wiki Talk page:

Vote for Deletion
This article survived a Vote for Deletion. The discussion can be found here. -Splash 00:57, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Paleolithic Continuity Theory appears to be taken seriously by at least 11 academic writers. Is this overlooked simply because the haplessly monolingual majority of English wikipedia editors cannot read most of the papers? All I've seen on wikipedia thus far is a lot of hand-waving by essentially anonymous wikipedia editors that Mario Alinei is a lunatic on the fringe and is considered so by everybody... without a single citation to that effect, of course. If indeed this seemingly highly respected and widely acknowledge professor is universally disgraced on account of his more recent theories, it should be rather trivial to show citations to that effect. I'd love to see some... --198.103.167.20 (talk) 15:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


So there are 'forces' that want his name out our Wiki and his research gone.

Here's another link that quotes one of his publications:

 

Silveryou

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Even in history books it is said that Rome went from 1.000.000 citizens to 50.000. But the possibility of an entire substitution is entirely possible and I am totally sure that Romans of today have nothing to do with those of antiquity (or anyway very little to do with them).

I am still trying to figure out what grecoroman-architecture in Rome/mediterreana are really ancient, what was renovated, and what was copied.
Yes. I think it has become the entire objective of this thread. The mysterious disappearance and lack of testimonies (modern and ancient) for this road Ardeatina and the extraordinary coincidence of the same shape of crossroads with the same names subsequently changed is quite astonishing!
I can't quote any references at the moment but I read some sources where all the 'architecture' or Rome and most of Italy was attributed to the Etruscans. I think it may have been Mario Alinei's work.


And this from the Wiki Talk page:

Vote for Deletion
This article survived a Vote for Deletion. The discussion can be found here. -Splash 00:57, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Paleolithic Continuity Theory appears to be taken seriously by at least 11 academic writers. Is this overlooked simply because the haplessly monolingual majority of English wikipedia editors cannot read most of the papers? All I've seen on wikipedia thus far is a lot of hand-waving by essentially anonymous wikipedia editors that Mario Alinei is a lunatic on the fringe and is considered so by everybody... without a single citation to that effect, of course. If indeed this seemingly highly respected and widely acknowledge professor is universally disgraced on account of his more recent theories, it should be rather trivial to show citations to that effect. I'd love to see some... --198.103.167.20 (talk) 15:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


So there are 'forces' that want his name out our Wiki and his research gone.

Here's another link that quotes one of his publications:

Thank you for the sources. I'll look into Alinei's work. I have read a good part of the link you provided and I have to say that it is interesting in certain aspects but it smells a little too much of nationalism for me. And I mean modern nationalism (I've never found a better word but the best that I can think is statalism as opposed to "ancient" nationalism as a racial and cultural entity, which I like). When an Italian speaks about continuity is generally trying to say that Italians have always been the way they are today from millenia and therefore Romans and Etruscans are Italians, case closed. I think instead that modern Italians are just the product of many events and that Etruscans, Romans and possibly (maybe) Latins came from somewhere else and I would say the first two came from the North, as opposed to some theories who want them from the Middle-East. This is my bias, if you want:LOL:.
I can take something from everyone but for me it's important to take always into consideration myths (because I think that myths are history) and New Chronology (because even if Fomenko, for me, is not right in many things, he has nevertheless opened the doors to something big with which historians will have to deal sooner or later).
 

Safranek

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I have to say that it is interesting in certain aspects but it smells a little too much of nationalism for me.
Strange, I was not left with such impression at all. I would remember that, as I will remember this from Fomenko. But Alinei is not in the least bit like Fomenko, I found his hypothesis as presented to be based on solid ground and there's a bibliography of linguists and historians who lean in that direction.

Consider that the most dangerous to the establishment are those scientists with high credentials, as their work can't be categorized as amateur. If they can't attack their science, they go for the person.

What alarms me is that the mainstream goes out of their way to ostracize this guy without so much as a valid argument. Since we KNOW history is a lie as presented to us, it would be a grave mistake to allow the work of those scientists who have stood up against them, to go unnoticed or be categorized as 'nationalist' or 'fringe' or 'pseudo', without the establishment even having to make the effort for a scientifically sound argument. It seems all they have to do is add a label, enforce it and they have successfully prevented those whose interest is represented by the work from looking at it carefully and seriously, but most of all, scientifically.

My first and only question regarding his work is this:

Is it possible that he is right?

Based on my personal research I say yes, not only possible but highly more probable than the BS we've been given so far. So then, if he's right or close to it, then what? How does that fit into local and surrounding history? Would it give an appropriate model to how history evolved, one that's more appropriate then what we are given today?

______________________________________________

Briefly regarding Nationalism;


Nationalism is an idea and movement that promotes the interests of a particular nation (as in a group of people),[1] especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland. Nationalism holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity[2] and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power (popular sovereignty).[1][3] It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,[4][5] and to promote national unity or solidarity.[1] Nationalism seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional cultures and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements.[6] It also encourages pride in national achievements and is closely linked to patriotism.[7][8][page needed] Nationalism is often combined with other ideologies such as conservatism (national conservatism) or socialism (left-wing nationalism).[2]

Consider the last two sentences in the Wiki definition with respect to this in two dictionaries;


Nationalism, ideology based on the premise that the individual’s loyalty and devotion to the nation-state surpass other individual or group interests.


nationalism
noun [ U ]

social studies
the feelings of affection and pride that people have for their country

politics & government
Nationalism is also the desire for political independence in a country that is controlled by or part of another country:



The Wiki definition gives a clear and thorough description of the word 'nationalism' up to the last two sentences where they bring in other factors, having the effect of partially negating the up-to-then positive definition which most people of the world would wholeheartedly agree with. From what I've seen, this definition is omitted from dictionaries, no healthy local cultural spirit allowed.

So without any further diversion from your excellent and studiously researched thread, I just wanted to stress this point of NOT letting the modern manipulation of words and the misuse of well-grounded research by potentially 'cointelpro' operatives derail from being able to consider purely the scientific evidence presented by researchers who have dared go against the grain. All 'they' have to do is tie their work to something negative and present them together.

Looking forward to the outcome of this thread. I suspect there is much more to be found.
 

Silveryou

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I suspect there is much more to be found.
A lot more to find!

This church, Chiesa del Domine Quo Vadis (Santa Maria in Palmis - Wikipedia), has an interesting story to tell. First of all “the current church is from 1637. The current façade was added in the 17th century”, and “there has been a sanctuary on the spot since the ninth century”. But “it has been supposed that the sanctuary might have been even more ancient, perhaps a Christian adaptation of some already existing temple: the church is in fact located just in front of the sacred campus dedicated to Rediculus, the Roman God of the Return". Do you think it's Ridiculous? Listen to the whole story! “The two footprints on a marble slab at the center of the church — nowadays a copy of the original, which is kept in the nearby Basilica of San Sebastiano fuori le mura — are popularly held to be a miraculous sign left by Jesus”. On the Italian wiki (Chiesa del Domine quo vadis - Wikipedia): “Legend - The church is built on the spot where, according to an episode narrated in the Acts of Peter, the apostle Peter, who fled from Rome to escape Nero's persecution, met Jesus in a vision. According to this account, Peter asked Jesus the question "Domine, quo vadis?", Or "Lord, where are you going?", And to Jesus' answer, "Eo Romam iterum crucifigi", "I am going to Rome to be crucified again", Peter understood that he had to go back to face martyrdom".
Here below the true imprint of Jesus' feet (shoe number of 44/45 – don't know if it's the same around the world, anyway 27,5 cm), the fake on the left and the authentic on the right.

I_piedi_del_quo_vadis.jpg
25182449179_bd80fd2a83_o.jpg

Why am I talking about these details? To explain it we have to read the captions of Piranesi's engraving called "Antiquus Bivi Viarum Appiae Et Ardeatinae Prospectus Ad II Lapidem Extra Portam Capenam", the one in which the now notorious crossroad between the Appian Way and Via Ardeatina is depicted. At number 1 it says: “Lapide col nome di Milord, affisa al Sepolcro degli Scipioni” (roughly: tombstone with the name Milord, affixed upon the Tomb of the Scipios). I have not found where the number “1” is placed on the engraving, but we have already seen that the location of the Tomb is nowadays inside the second zone that I consider as the one depicted by Piranesi, so we can say that it at least fits well with the representation done by the artist.

Cattura46.PNG

995dd63ae29072d095ae893bd0935447.jpg

The Tomb of the Scipios (Tomb of the Scipios - Wikipedia) was rediscovered in 1614 in a vineyard: “The owner of the property in 1614 did not alter or further publicize the tomb. He must have resealed it, hid the entrance and kept its location a secret, for whatever reasons, as it disappeared from public knowledge and was lost again... In 1780 the then owners of the vineyard, the brothers Sassi, who apparently had no idea it was there, broke into the tomb again during remodelling of their wine cellar”. “The tomb was published in Rome in 1785 by Francesco Piranesi (Francesco Piranesi - Wikipedia) in Monumenti degli Scipioni. Francesco was completing a previous incomplete work by his father, Giovanni Battista Piranesi (Giovanni Battista Piranesi - Wikipedia), who died in 1778 (added by me! He died two years before the rediscovery!!!). The accuracy of the drawings in that work (actually, two works, by father and son – they have to specify it) leaves much to be desired (I had no doubt this was their opinion)”. In the article they fail to mention the engraving shown above in which Piranesi drew the Tomb way before it was casually rediscovered (unless someone wants to take into consideration the first supposed discovery in 1614, a highly suspicious event). By the way, just for fun (or maybe not?) the article ends with “The tomb was subsequently neglected again (but not lost) until purchased by the city of Rome; in fact, there were reports of a gypsy family living in it”. Gypsies! Who are the gypsies?
Here below the fantasy and idealized plan of the Tomb of the Scipios by Piranesi (supposedly completed by his son!) and a look at the “Tomb” inhabited by nomad gypsies as it appeared in 1803 in a painting by Angelo Uggeri called “Tomb of Scipios” and as it appears now. Has this modern "monument" ever been a Tomb?

Piranesi-Scipionengrab-2.jpg

0e38e820-050e-491b-ba24-8641184b0e24.jpg
Area archeologica.jpg

So we can see that Piranesi had knowledge of the position of the Tomb near the crossroad between the Appian Way and Via Ardeatina (the true one). But now we have to tell why everything is Rediculus (Rediculus - Wikipedia): “Rediculus is an ancient Roman divinity. His cult had a temple near the Porta Capena, and a campus on the Appian Way”. Porta Capena again!!! They tell us the campus is near the church Chiesa del Domine Quo Vadis and the modern crossroad between the Appian Way and Via Ardeatina but it's FALSE. The temple was where Piranesi drew it.
But let's continue. “This divinity is probably one of Rome's lares, a protector-god of the city. He is said to have appeared to Hannibal as he was camped outside Rome in 211 B.C., urging him to return (redire) to Carthage. Festus' account of the incident reports that Hannibal, nearing the city, saw apparitions in the air, filling him with dread and causing him to turn back immediately”.

Hannibal or Saint Peter? Who did they saw outside Porta Capena?
 
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Silveryou

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Where the second milestone was located? We have seen that the modern opinion given by historians place the first milestone outside Porta San Sebastiano, informing us it is a copy from 1910 that replaced the original found in 1584 which is now on Capitoline Hill (Capitoline Hill - Wikipedia). Can we see this original from the year 1584? Yes. Here below you can see the original on the left and the copy on the right.

DSC01973.JPG
Appia_antica_2-7-05_007.jpg

It seems the 100 years copy is in a really bad shape when compared to the 2.000 years milestone. Under the original there is an inscription which assures us it was found in 1584 and transferred on Capitoline Hill.

DSC01975.JPG

But there is something off in this story, in the same way we have seen for many other things. The position in which the milestone was transferred to is incredibly close to the famous Temple of Saturn where the Milliarium Aureum was placed in ancient times, the centre of Rome and starting point of the count of miles. By the way “It is certain that it was "hard by [under] the Temple of Saturn at the head of the Roman Forum", but its exact location is still unknown” (Milliarium Aureum - Wikipedia). Since we have seen how the real measure of the Roman mile is not well established, let's do some measurements using the positions of the original and the copy. Let's pretend that the original on the Capitoline Hill is the “ancient” Milliarium Aureum, which by the way should have also necessarily been the first Roman mile possibly with a Roman “I” (1 in "Arabic" numbers) inscribed upon it, expecially because Roman numbers didn't have the zero placeholder. And let's pretend the copy outside Porta San Sebastiano was the third milestone (is it possible that originally was inscribed with a “III” subsequently changed into ”I”?). And finally I will try to find the correct location of the second milestone engraved by Piranesi. What do we find?

Cattura99.PNG

Cattura100.PNG

Even if I don't really know the exact path one should follow from the milestone on Capitoline Hill (I have chosen the path of Via Sacra - Via Sacra - Wikipedia – in a straight line running down the hill), it seems that the distance from the first and the second milestone and from the second and the third is ideally identical. This would confirm the location of the second milestone near the crossroad of the Appian Way and Via Ardeatina just outside Porta Capena, as described in the second post of this thread (Ancient Rome according to Piranesi and others).

Cattura42.PNG
Cattura43.PNG

Roman mile = 1.580 meters (5.184 feet)? That would be extremely similar to the modern mile of 5.280 feet... (Roman mile - Wiktionary)

You decide!

P.S. The milestone was rediscovered in 1584. "The English statute mile was established by a Weights and Measures Act of Parliament in 1593 during the reign of Queen Elizabeth I" (Mile - Wikipedia).
 
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Forrest

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Here is another Piranesi drawing with a scale. This is Tiber/Tiberina Island on the Tiber river, downtown Rome; the map appears to show it as a ship with an obelisk for the mast, as is depicted in several old maps. This might get us to a more accurate Roman Mile, if that's what he means. "Palmi Romani"? Roman hands instead of Roman feet?

1612149894414.png


Caption:
Nelle passate Tavole ho rappresentato il Mausoleo e Ponte Elio Adriano, co gli avanzi dell antico Ponte Trionfale a questo
contiguo; e parendomi cosa non men utile, che necessaria render compita la mia raccolta, anche coi Ponti, i quali esistono dentro
la Cuta, ho voluto dimostrare nella presente figura la situazione degli altri due Ponti Quattro Capi, e Ferrato, cosi detti da Moderni, per mezzo de quali si passa all’Isola Tibernina detti di S. Bartolomeo; osservando nello stesso tempo gli avanzi di questa Isola, qualisono stati da me suppliti del mancante di lor fabriche, distinguendoto con tinta pui leggera, ed accennando l’esistente con la pin nera. 1. Ponte Fabrico. 2 Ponte Ferrato. 3. Avanzo della Poppa della Nave, come vedremo nella seguente tavola 4. Tempio de Esculapio 5 Are piantate innanzi al Tempio sudetto 6. Guglia eretta nel mezzo della piazza. 7. Atrio dedicato ad
Esculapio nel mezzo dell’Isola con Statua di questa Dieta. 8 Ospedale per gl’Infermi 9. Statua di Giulio Cesare 10. Tempio di Giove Li:
caonio con statua di questa Deita nel dinanzi. 11. Tempio, e statua di Fauno. 12. Statua di Semone Sango. 13. Carcere, nel quale
portavansi per un mese intero i Nobili condannati a morte. 14. Case dei tre Fratelli Anizi. 15. Pezzo della sudetta guglia di granito innanzi alla Chiesa di S. Bartolomeo. 16 Are che si veggono nel cortiletto de PP. Di questa Chiesa
Piranesi Archit. dif. inc.

Shaky translation:
In the past Tables I have represented the Mausoleum and Bridge Elio HADRIAN, with the remains of the ancient Trionfale Bridge adjacent to this one; and since it seems to me no less useful than necessary to make my collection complete, even with the Bridges, which exist inside the Cuta, I wanted to demonstrate in the present figure the situation of the other two Bridges Quattro Capi, and Ferrato, so called by Moderni, for through which one passes to the Tibernina Island known as S. Bartolomeo; observing at the same time the remains of this island, which I have made up for for the lack of their buildings, distinguishing them with a lighter shade, and pointing out the existing one with a black pin.

1. Fabrico Bridge.
2 Ferrato Bridge.
3. Remnant of the stern of the ship, as we will see in the following table
4. Tempio de Esculapio
5 Ares [areas?] planted in front of the aforementioned Temple
6. Spire erected in the middle of the square.
7. Atrium dedicated to Aesculapius in the middle of the island with a statue of this Diety.
8 Hospital for the sick
9. Statue of Julius Caesar
10. Temple of Jupiter Li: caonius with a statue of this Deita in front.
11. Temple, and statue of Faun.
12. Statue of Semone Sango.
13. Prison, where the nobles sentenced to death were taken for a whole month.
14. Houses of the three Anizi Brothers.
15. Piece of the aforementioned granite spire in front of the Church of S. Bartolomeo.
16 Ares that can be seen in the courtyard of PP. Of this church
Piranesi Archit. dif. inc.

The image is from a KD post- SH Archive - Ancient bridge construction as presented by Piranesi in the 18th century

Also relevant- https://stolenhistory.net/threads/18th-century-cartography-and-map-making.2321
Also https://stolenhistory.net/threads/1721-two-different-maps-of-rome-why.2191/#post-11807
especially the Dreamtime post of Date: 2018-08-26 11:38:38 showing bridge up, bridge out. Tiber Island also changes, sometimes it's like a ship, sometimes there's a little islet upstream. The little islet and the bridge out may correlate with big floods that deposited 20+ feet of soil in the Circus Maximus, Forum, etc., like this one- 1530 The Great Flood of ROME
 
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Silveryou

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I am trying to figure out something related to the Tiber Island that I have in mind from the start. I am going to post it when it's ready.

In the meantime a real treat for those interested in misconceptions, hidden truths and stolen history. This goes very weel with post #17 (Ancient Rome according to Piranesi and others). Here below two engravings by Piranesi (supposedly by the same author) with the same title: "Veduta degli avanzi del Tablino della Casa Aurea di Nerone, detti volgarmente il Tempio della Pace" (roughly: View of the ruins of the Tablinum of the Domus Aurea of Nero, vulgarly called the Temple of Peace).

291004501_.jpg
39896.jpg

In the first engraving, on the right of the picture you can see the Colosseum (and it's written in the caption - point C Flavian Amphitheatre). The tablinum was "a room generally situated on one side of the atrium and opposite to the entrance; it opened in the rear onto the peristyle, with either a large window or only an anteroom or curtain" (Tablinum - Wikipedia). How is it called nowadays? The Basilica of Maxentius (Basilica of Maxentius - Wikipedia)!

QAeditoria_637140257405706682_Basilica-di-Massenzio-800x445.jpg

And so this is the second time we see a monument previously called in another way and now attributed to Maxentius, the first being the Circus of Caracalla renamed as Circus of Maxentius. This is a strange thing in itself.
 
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