I.Q. in relation to musical abilities

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Lightseeker

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Not meaning to be racist, but taking into account the well-documented differences in IQ between Europeans and black Africans, it is quite unlikely that a black person could write something similar to Mozart's creative output.

admin note: This comment does not reflect our standards at stolenhistory.net. The topic only brings us forward if we try to understand the factors that promote and nurture intelligence. Without objective historical data, the above statement is short-sighted and irrational.
 

6079SmithW

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Not meaning to be racist, but taking into account the well-documented differences in IQ between Europeans and black Africans, it is quite unlikely that a black person could write something similar to Mozart's creative output.
Facts aren't racist.
Hmm... I'm not sure I agree.

While African IQ may be lower (I haven't looked into this matter), let's assume for the sake of argument that it is...

I'm not convinced that IQ is a good yardstick for measuring anything other than the sort of number crunching intelligence pushed by The Empire.

Purely down to my own experience, I meet many people at work who are astonishingly good at programming, mathematics etc, but have zero wisdom - believe anything put out by the media without question etc.

Also, I am a poor mathematician - I didn't have the greatest enucation and didn't do very well in 'school'.

But I am (this isn't meant as a bragging exercise) a world class drummer.

Do you see what I mean? My IQ probably isn't very high - but that doesn't mean I can't be very creative...
 

freygeist

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Hmm... I'm not sure I agree.

While African IQ may be lower (I haven't looked into this matter), let's assume for the sake of argument that it is...

I'm not convinced that IQ is a good yardstick for measuring anything other than the sort of number crunching intelligence pushed by The Empire.

Purely down to my own experience, I meet many people at work who are astonishingly good at programming, mathematics etc, but have zero wisdom - believe anything put out by the media without question etc.

Also, I am a poor mathematician - I didn't have the greatest enucation and didn't do very well in 'school'.

But I am (this isn't meant as a bragging exercise) a world class drummer.

Do you see what I mean? My IQ probably isn't very high - but that doesn't mean I can't be very creative...
OK, then where is the vast amount of classical literature from black people, that we still play today? It doesn't exist. Why are black people almost never seen as concert pianists or violinists or as dirigents?

On the other hand you see many asians, being able to play that music, even if their ancestors didn't write it. So it has very much do with intelligence.
 
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Lightseeker

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Not meaning to be racist, but taking into account the well-documented differences in IQ between Europeans and black Africans, it is quite unlikely that a black person could write something similar to Mozart's creative output.
Facts aren't racist.
Hmm... I'm not sure I agree.

While African IQ may be lower (I haven't looked into this matter), let's assume for the sake of argument that it is...

I'm not convinced that IQ is a good yardstick for measuring anything other than the sort of number crunching intelligence pushed by The Empire.

Purely down to my own experience, I meet many people at work who are astonishingly good at programming, mathematics etc, but have zero wisdom - believe anything put out by the media without question etc.

Also, I am a poor mathematician - I didn't have the greatest enucation and didn't do very well in 'school'.

But I am (this isn't meant as a bragging exercise) a world class drummer.

Do you see what I mean? My IQ probably isn't very high - but that doesn't mean I can't be very creative...
If you haven't looked into this matter, then why write a response about my argument without having informed yourself first? To those who have done their homework it is known that the average IQ in subsaharan Africa is significantly lower than the German IQ.

The fact that IQ is correlated with measures of success and the level of development of a society is just that: a fact.

It is also a fact that being creative is one manifestation of intelligence. It explains why certain nations in Europe gave the world a lot of inventions. I am talking about the English, the Germans and the Italians.
 

David Glenney

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I enjoyed and played some works attributed to Scott Joplin, 1868-1917, black ragtime pianist of "The Entertainer" fame, though he was no Mozart.

Also I'm wondering if these well-documented IQs were documented in the supposed place, time and culture of Mozart? Half-joking, half-serious because I do not know about these tests.

I am from Dallas, so I do know and am therefore informed about black people. There are fine, intelligent, black, performing, composing and improvising musicians around here. I've played with, worked with, worked for, hired, was taught in college by and with blacks. Dare I say--dated some. They're not stupid any much more than the dumb-ass white people. Almost all can sing better. I guess they're more directed culturally into a douchey rap cult than old-world arts, but then they share that with most people.

I've known intelligent, and more importantly--decent men and women of all races and religions.

Let's not NIGGLE!

As a Scotch-Irish-German-Brit American, I have a supposedly high IQ, yet am a total failure in society. Headed for the asylums?
 

Lightseeker

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I enjoyed and played some works attributed to Scott Joplin, 1868-1917, black ragtime pianist of "The Entertainer" fame, though he was no Mozart.

Also I'm wondering if these well-documented IQs were documented in the supposed place, time and culture of Mozart? Half-joking, half-serious because I do not know about these tests.

I am from Dallas, so I do know and am therefore informed about black people. There are fine, intelligent, black, performing, composing and improvising musicians around here. I've played with, worked with, worked for, hired, was taught in college by and with blacks. Dare I say--dated some. They're not stupid any much more than the dumb-ass white people. Almost all can sing better. I guess they're more directed culturally into a douchey rap cult than old-world arts, but then they share that with most people.

I've known intelligent, and more importantly--decent men and women of all races and religions.

Let's not NIGGLE!

As a Scotch-Irish-German-Brit American, I have a supposedly high IQ, yet am a total failure in society. Headed for the asylums?
The crime and incarceration stats in your country, as well as data concerning academic prowess (or lack thereof) offers a more global and objective view than your limited interactions. You need to learn the difference between an exception and a rule or trend. Just because you have met cultured black people of a certain level doesn't mean that in general, their IQ is on average lower than that of a white person. Just like a white person in general has a lower IQ than a Jew.
 

6079SmithW

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Not meaning to be racist, but taking into account the well-documented differences in IQ between Europeans and black Africans, it is quite unlikely that a black person could write something similar to Mozart's creative output.
Facts aren't racist.
Hmm... I'm not sure I agree.

While African IQ may be lower (I haven't looked into this matter), let's assume for the sake of argument that it is...

I'm not convinced that IQ is a good yardstick for measuring anything other than the sort of number crunching intelligence pushed by The Empire.

Purely down to my own experience, I meet many people at work who are astonishingly good at programming, mathematics etc, but have zero wisdom - believe anything put out by the media without question etc.

Also, I am a poor mathematician - I didn't have the greatest enucation and didn't do very well in 'school'.

But I am (this isn't meant as a bragging exercise) a world class drummer.

Do you see what I mean? My IQ probably isn't very high - but that doesn't mean I can't be very creative...
If you haven't looked into this matter, then why write a response about my argument without having informed yourself first? To those who have done their homework it is known that the average IQ in subsaharan Africa is significantly lower than the German IQ.

The fact that IQ is correlated with measures of success and the level of development of a society is just that: a fact.

It is also a fact that being creative is one manifestation of intelligence. It explains why certain nations in Europe gave the world a lot of inventions. I am talking about the English, the Germans and the Italians.
Hello,

I am questioning the link between 'IQ' and musical ability, not the disparity of IQ between 'races'.

So the fact that I haven't looked into IQ disparity is not relevant.
 

freygeist

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Hello,

I am questioning the link between 'IQ' and musical ability, not the disparity of IQ between 'races'.

So the fact that I haven't looked into IQ disparity is not relevant.
There is a link between IQ and musical ability. The higher your IQ, the higher your ability to understand music and most importantly memorize large pieces. There are literally books of notes, for the player, especially pianists, to remember. But it works also the other way around, you can sharpen your cognitive skills, while learning music, that's why still to this day many parents insist, that their children learn an instrument. But, genetics plays a role also, so not every kid might have the feeling/talent for music, even if it has the IQ for it.
 

Lightseeker

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Not meaning to be racist, but taking into account the well-documented differences in IQ between Europeans and black Africans, it is quite unlikely that a black person could write something similar to Mozart's creative output.
Facts aren't racist.
Hmm... I'm not sure I agree.

While African IQ may be lower (I haven't looked into this matter), let's assume for the sake of argument that it is...

I'm not convinced that IQ is a good yardstick for measuring anything other than the sort of number crunching intelligence pushed by The Empire.

Purely down to my own experience, I meet many people at work who are astonishingly good at programming, mathematics etc, but have zero wisdom - believe anything put out by the media without question etc.

Also, I am a poor mathematician - I didn't have the greatest enucation and didn't do very well in 'school'.

But I am (this isn't meant as a bragging exercise) a world class drummer.

Do you see what I mean? My IQ probably isn't very high - but that doesn't mean I can't be very creative...
If you haven't looked into this matter, then why write a response about my argument without having informed yourself first? To those who have done their homework it is known that the average IQ in subsaharan Africa is significantly lower than the German IQ.

The fact that IQ is correlated with measures of success and the level of development of a society is just that: a fact.

It is also a fact that being creative is one manifestation of intelligence. It explains why certain nations in Europe gave the world a lot of inventions. I am talking about the English, the Germans and the Italians.
Hello,

I am questioning the link between 'IQ' and musical ability, not the disparity of IQ between 'races'.

So the fact that I haven't looked into IQ disparity is not relevant.
Here is a good starting point:
 

Oracle

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I have to chime (pardon the pun) in here because you are all going way off track with the IQ thing here. I understand the time and investment involved with classical musical training is largely behind this, nobody wants to be told all that training was in effect a dumbing down and a lie after so much commitment,but folks I'm here to tell you that you are concerned with the wrong organ here ( another unintended pun). Music composition comes from,and is heard by the heart,not the brain.
This the most electrically strong and active part of our physical make up. Intuition is tied to this organ not the brain as mainstream science would have us believe. One does not need to have a high IQ to compose or create music or to feel it's energy/power as a listener. One does not need classical training to create music, only the heart and it's "ear piece" to transform/translate it to meaning and connection with the ONE energy that connects all on a spiritual level. Without going all esoteric on you all, you need to understand that. @6079SmithW is intuitively right in what he says without being able to explain it that is because he knows on a gnostic level he himself might not be even aware of. You are all going on the wrong track entirely in understanding what music is and where it comes from. Not meaning to offend anyone, but the IQ thing is seriously off track if it is music/frequency/sound you are trying to understand here in relation to the ancients and music creation in general.
 

freygeist

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I have to chime (pardon the pun) in here because you are all going way off track with the IQ thing here. I understand the time and investment involved with classical musical training is largely behind this, nobody wants to be told all that training was in effect a dumbing down and a lie after so much commitment,but folks I'm here to tell you that you are concerned with the wrong organ here ( another unintended pun). Music composition comes from,and is heard by the heart,not the brain.
This the most electrically strong and active part of our physical make up. Intuition is tied to this organ not the brain as mainstream science would have us believe. One does not need to have a high IQ to compose or create music or to feel it's energy/power as a listener. One does not need classical training to create music, only the heart and it's "ear piece" to transform/translate it to meaning and connection with the ONE energy that connects all on a spiritual level. Without going all esoteric on you all, you need to understand that. @6079SmithW is intuitively right in what he says without being able to explain it that is because he knows on a gnostic level he himself might not be even aware of. You are all going on the wrong track entirely in understanding what music is and where it comes from. Not meaning to offend anyone, but the IQ thing is seriously off track if it is music/frequency/sound you are trying to understand here in relation to the ancients and music creation in general.

I understand your point, so let me explain, IQ alone isn't of course everything. The instrument is the direct vessel to express your own soul through the music, that's is the reason a concert piano will always sound different than a e-piano. The most natural instrument is of course the human voice, that's why singing evokes human emotions in the strongest way possible. So you have to feel the music in your heart, there is no doubt about that.

But i stand by my point that a dumb person would have a rather hard time learning a Beethoven Sonata.
 

Lightseeker

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I have to chime (pardon the pun) in here because you are all going way off track with the IQ thing here. I understand the time and investment involved with classical musical training is largely behind this, nobody wants to be told all that training was in effect a dumbing down and a lie after so much commitment,but folks I'm here to tell you that you are concerned with the wrong organ here ( another unintended pun). Music composition comes from,and is heard by the heart,not the brain.
This the most electrically strong and active part of our physical make up. Intuition is tied to this organ not the brain as mainstream science would have us believe. One does not need to have a high IQ to compose or create music or to feel it's energy/power as a listener. One does not need classical training to create music, only the heart and it's "ear piece" to transform/translate it to meaning and connection with the ONE energy that connects all on a spiritual level. Without going all esoteric on you all, you need to understand that. @6079SmithW is intuitively right in what he says without being able to explain it that is because he knows on a gnostic level he himself might not be even aware of. You are all going on the wrong track entirely in understanding what music is and where it comes from. Not meaning to offend anyone, but the IQ thing is seriously off track if it is music/frequency/sound you are trying to understand here in relation to the ancients and music creation in general.

I understand your point, so let me explain, IQ alone isn't of course everything. The instrument is the direct vessel to express your own soul through the music, that's is the reason a concert piano will always sound different than a e-piano. The most natural instrument is of course the human voice, that's why singing evokes human emotions in the strongest way possible. So you have to feel the music in your heart, there is no doubt about that.

But i stand by my point that a dumb person would have a rather hard time learning a Beethoven Sonata.
My point is that a dumb person doesn't even want to listen to the sonata because he is not able to appreciate it. How many times have you heard people say that classical music is boring, makes them fall asleep or is "relaxing"?
 

6079SmithW

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I have to chime (pardon the pun) in here because you are all going way off track with the IQ thing here. I understand the time and investment involved with classical musical training is largely behind this, nobody wants to be told all that training was in effect a dumbing down and a lie after so much commitment,but folks I'm here to tell you that you are concerned with the wrong organ here ( another unintended pun). Music composition comes from,and is heard by the heart,not the brain.
This the most electrically strong and active part of our physical make up. Intuition is tied to this organ not the brain as mainstream science would have us believe. One does not need to have a high IQ to compose or create music or to feel it's energy/power as a listener. One does not need classical training to create music, only the heart and it's "ear piece" to transform/translate it to meaning and connection with the ONE energy that connects all on a spiritual level. Without going all esoteric on you all, you need to understand that. @6079SmithW is intuitively right in what he says without being able to explain it that is because he knows on a gnostic level he himself might not be even aware of. You are all going on the wrong track entirely in understanding what music is and where it comes from. Not meaning to offend anyone, but the IQ thing is seriously off track if it is music/frequency/sound you are trying to understand here in relation to the ancients and music creation in general.

I understand your point, so let me explain, IQ alone isn't of course everything. The instrument is the direct vessel to express your own soul through the music, that's is the reason a concert piano will always sound different than a e-piano. The most natural instrument is of course the human voice, that's why singing evokes human emotions in the strongest way possible. So you have to feel the music in your heart, there is no doubt about that.

But i stand by my point that a dumb person would have a rather hard time learning a Beethoven Sonata.
My point is that a dumb person doesn't even want to listen to the sonata because he is not able to appreciate it. How many times have you heard people say that classical music is boring, makes them fall asleep or is "relaxing"?
I think it might be more to do with a lack of consciousness.

People I work with operate almost entirely on the subconscious level, hence they don't notice the horrible music and adverts they listen to day in, day out.

For us people who have an active conscious mind, we notice
 

Lightseeker

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I have to chime (pardon the pun) in here because you are all going way off track with the IQ thing here. I understand the time and investment involved with classical musical training is largely behind this, nobody wants to be told all that training was in effect a dumbing down and a lie after so much commitment,but folks I'm here to tell you that you are concerned with the wrong organ here ( another unintended pun). Music composition comes from,and is heard by the heart,not the brain.
This the most electrically strong and active part of our physical make up. Intuition is tied to this organ not the brain as mainstream science would have us believe. One does not need to have a high IQ to compose or create music or to feel it's energy/power as a listener. One does not need classical training to create music, only the heart and it's "ear piece" to transform/translate it to meaning and connection with the ONE energy that connects all on a spiritual level. Without going all esoteric on you all, you need to understand that. @6079SmithW is intuitively right in what he says without being able to explain it that is because he knows on a gnostic level he himself might not be even aware of. You are all going on the wrong track entirely in understanding what music is and where it comes from. Not meaning to offend anyone, but the IQ thing is seriously off track if it is music/frequency/sound you are trying to understand here in relation to the ancients and music creation in general.

I understand your point, so let me explain, IQ alone isn't of course everything. The instrument is the direct vessel to express your own soul through the music, that's is the reason a concert piano will always sound different than a e-piano. The most natural instrument is of course the human voice, that's why singing evokes human emotions in the strongest way possible. So you have to feel the music in your heart, there is no doubt about that.

But i stand by my point that a dumb person would have a rather hard time learning a Beethoven Sonata.
My point is that a dumb person doesn't even want to listen to the sonata because he is not able to appreciate it. How many times have you heard people say that classical music is boring, makes them fall asleep or is "relaxing"?
I think it might be more to do with a lack of consciousness.

People I work with operate almost entirely on the subconscious level, hence they don't notice the horrible music and adverts they listen to day in, day out.

For us people who have an active conscious mind, we notice
Some might say that a lack of consciousness is strongly correlated with low(er) intelligence.
 

dreamtime

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Not meaning to be racist, but taking into account the well-documented differences in IQ between Europeans and black Africans, it is quite unlikely that a black person could write something similar to Mozart's creative output.
This is a short-sighted statement. We now nothing about how people lived like a couple hundred years ago. It's true that Black Africans have a very low I.Q. but it might have very well be a cataclysm that changed the environment in a way as to cause it.

It's well documented that I.Q. is a pretty objective measurement of ability when it comes to individual and collective intelligence, even though it has it's limitations, but this is a history forum, and simply taking the present as a way to judge the past doesn't lead us anywhere.

The concept of I.Q. is often connected to the idea of genetic determinism and inheritance, while environmental factors are neglected.
 

freygeist

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Not meaning to be racist, but taking into account the well-documented differences in IQ between Europeans and black Africans, it is quite unlikely that a black person could write something similar to Mozart's creative output.
This is a short-sighted statement. We now nothing about how people lived like a couple hundred years ago. It's true that Black Africans have a very low I.Q. but it might have very well be a cataclysm that changed the environment in a way as to cause it.

It's well documented that I.Q. is an objective measurement of ability, even though it has it's limitations, but this is a history forum, and simply taking the present as a way to judge the past doesn't lead us anywhere.
Could be, but the question why europeans or asians are more intelligent today, or lets say capable, still stands. Weren't they affected by the cataclysm, so that it only lowered the IQ/conscious/whatever of black people?
 

dreamtime

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Not meaning to be racist, but taking into account the well-documented differences in IQ between Europeans and black Africans, it is quite unlikely that a black person could write something similar to Mozart's creative output.
This is a short-sighted statement. We now nothing about how people lived like a couple hundred years ago. It's true that Black Africans have a very low I.Q. but it might have very well be a cataclysm that changed the environment in a way as to cause it.

It's well documented that I.Q. is an objective measurement of ability, even though it has it's limitations, but this is a history forum, and simply taking the present as a way to judge the past doesn't lead us anywhere.
Could be, but the question why europeans or asians are more intelligent today, or lets say capable, still stands. Weren't they affected by the cataclysm, so that it only lowered the IQ/conscious/whatever of black people?
Yeah, it's a valid question, nowadays people think you are not allowed to discuss intelligence because it means some people (or races) are smarter than others, but the topic needs to be discussed. Even the concept of races is taboo nowadays.

It would be absurd to censor topics only because they are inconvenient to the current zeitgeist.

Although I doubt the topic will lead us anywhere except when we connect the topic of intelligence and races with a new perspective on history. But thinking in any direction can be important, even if we don't yet know where it leads us.
 
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