Ireland as an example of old-world governance

dreamtime

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Looks like the Irish resisted the empire until the 17th (or even 18th) Century, and the potato famine was created to destroy the remains of the old decentralized system of the tuath under British rule.

I propose the way the old world worked was like this:

- Single, united civilization on earth that was governed locally but connected globally. This united civilization later split apart after a cataclysmic event or war (maybe around 1300 AD)
- Afterwards, the local governance did not change, but the connection between the different countries wasn't as good as before, we see development of individual languages, etc.
- no central authority, kings had spiritual functions
- caste system, but fluid
- people were judged by accomplishment and ability
- no money, no banks, no parasitism
- this system, decentralized but united in spirit, could have been called the commonwealth of earth
- The parasitic PTB stole the name commonwealth but perverted everything in order to create a central authority that controls people and enslaves.
- It took a long time to overthrow the old kingdoms because due to their decentralized governance and focus on autonomy and freedom they couldn't simply kill their leaders, they had to slowly destroy the spirit of the entire people

What remains known about the Irish system implies that life in the pre-colonial times was glorious, and doing good things and working hard mattered, for people reaped the fruits of their own labor, and people knew how to resolve conflicts without resorting to a central authority. This implies a completely different approach towards life, and means that people were in touch with themselves, and the people around them. When there is no central arbitrary authority, relationships and life as a whole become meaningful.

The connections between people living together within a small community were like a very dense web, their lifes interwoven in a single destiny, and everyone dependent on everyone else, the biggest fear was being ostracised from the community, for that usually meant total loss of one's reputation and eventually suffering or death.

Irish law is almost wholly the produet of a professional class of jurists called brithim or brehons. Originally the Druids and later the filid or poets were the keepers of the law, but by historic times jurisprudence was the professional specialization of the brehons who often were members of hereditary brehonic families and enjoyed a social and legal status just below that of the kings. The brehons survived among the native lrish until the very end of a free Irish society in the early 17th century. They were particularly marked for persecution, along with the poets and historians, by the English authorities. The statutes of Kilkenny (1366) specifically forbade the English from resorting to the brehon's law, but they were still being mentioned in English documents of the early 17th ceniury.l61 The absence from the function of law-making of the Irish kings may seem startling. But Irish kings were not legisiators nor were they normally involved in the adjudication of disputes unless requested to do so by the litigants. A king was not a sovereign; he himself could be sued and a special brehon was assigned to hear cases to which the king was a party. He was subject to the law as any other freeman. The Irish polity, the tuath, was, one distinguished modem scholar put it, "the state in swaddling clothes". It existed only in "embryo". "There was no legislature, no bailiffs or police, no public enforcement of justice . . . there was no trace of Stateadministered justice". Certain mythological kings like Cormac mac Airt were reputed to be Iawgivms and judges, but turn out to be euhemerized Celtic deities. When the kings appear in the enforcement of justice, they do so through the system of suretyship which was utilized to guarantee the enforcement of contracts and the decisions of the brehon's courts. Or they appear as representatives of the assembly of freemen to contract on their behalf with other fuafha or churchmen. Irish law is essentially brehon's law-and the absence of the State in its creation and development is one of the chief reasons for its importance as an object of our scrutiny.
Conclusion and Summary

While a comprehensive survey of the Irish law of property and property rights cannot yet be written, we can already see that the idea of private ownership permeates those aspects of the law which have been subjected to recent study. The Irish frankly and openly used assessments of property as the criterion for determining a man's social and legal status, the extent of his capacity to act as a surety or compurgator, and to fix the amounts of compensation due hi as a victim of crime or any kind of injury. Ownership of land determined a man's status as free or unfree and his right to participate in the public assembly. The needs of the Church modified but did not alter the basic character of native Irish institutions and law. While it secured for itself almost total freedom from lay ownership and secular obligations, it was never able to fully destroy the essentially secular character of Irish law as exemplified in the laws on marriage and divorce. The legal capacity of women showed exceptional development and gave women property rights in the 8th century that were centuries ahead of those enjoyed by English women. The fact that lrish law was the creation of private individuals who were professional, even hereditary, jurists, gave to the law both a conservative yet flexible and equitable character. Their power rested upon the free consent of the community in choosing them as arbitrators in disputes; and this made equity and justice more likely than in royal courts where the interests of the State and its rulers are paramount. The invasion and conquest of Ireland, the work of over 400 years before it was completed, was eventually fatal to the Irish system of law snd the culture and civilization it expressed. The English State was incompatible with the Irish tuoth; the English common law was totally incompatible with the Irish law. Ireland from the 12th century was a single land in which two nations and two laws and two cultures engaged in a constant struggle for survival. The end came in the early 17th century with the flight bf the last Irish kings from Ulster and the new plantation of that region by Protestant Scots sent by James I-that most absolute of English Kings. As for the native Irish and their ancient culture, the English official Sir John Davies thought he said it all: "For if we consider the Nature of the Irish Customes, we shall finde that the people that doeth use them, must of necessitie bee Rebelles to all good Government, destroy the commonwealth wherein they live. and bring Barbarisme and desolation upon the richest and most fruitful land of the world.'

In fact, the most glaring cause of the famine was not a plant disease, but England's long-running political hegemony over Ireland. The English conquered Ireland, several times, and took ownership of vast agricultural territory. Large chunks of land were given to Englishmen.

These landowners in turn hired farmers to manage their holdings. The managers then rented small plots to the local population in return for labor and cash crops. Competition for land resulted in high rents and smaller plots, thereby squeezing the Irish to subsistence and providing a large financial drain on the economy.

Land tenancy can be efficient, but the Irish had no rights to the land they worked or any improvements they might make. Only in areas dominated by Protestants did tenant farmers have any rights over their capital improvements. With the landlords largely residing in England, there was no one to conduct systematic capital improvements.

The Irish suffered from many famines under English rule. Like a boxer with both arms tied behind his back, the Irish could only stand and absorb blow after blow. It took the "many circumstances" of English policy to create the knockout punch and ultimate answer to the Irish question.

Each túath was a self contained unit, with its own executive, assembly, courts system and defence force. Túatha were grouped together into confederations for mutual defence. There was a hierarchy of túatha statuses, depending on geographical position and connection to the ruling dynasties of the region.[3] The organisation of túatha is covered to a great extent within the Brehon laws, Irish laws written down in the 7th century, also known as the Fénechas.[4]

The old Irish political system was altered during and after the Elizabethan conquest, being gradually replaced by a system of baronies and counties under the new colonial system. Due to a loss of knowledge, there has been some confusion regarding old territorial units in Ireland, mainly between trícha céta and túatha, which in some cases seem to be overlapping units, and in others, different measurements altogether.[5] The trícha céta were primarily for reckoning military units; specifically, the number of fighting forces a particular population could rally.[2] Some scholars equate the túath with the modern parish, whereas others equate it with the barony. This partly depends on how the territory was first incorporated into the county system. In cases where surrender and regrant was the method, the match between the old túath and the modern barony is reasonably equivalent. Whereas in cases like Ulster, which involved large scale colonisation and confiscation of land, the shape of the original divisions is not always clear or recoverable.
 
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torgo

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The East side of North America used to be known as Great Ireland a long time ago. I found out about this from a comment in a thread at SH but I can't find it anywhere. It had to do with the backgrounds of the Native Americans, I believe. Luckily, I saved the screenshots and sources and have added some links I've found.

1838 America Discovered in the Tenth Century1.png 1838 America Discovered in the Tenth Century2.png 1875 Lives of the Irish Saints.png 1884 Magazine of Western History.png 1897 Iowa County democrat. [volume] (Mineral Point, Wis.) 1877-1938, November 18, 1897, Page 3...png 1906 Bismarck daily tribune. [volume] (Bismarck, Dakota [N.D.]) 1881-1916, March 12, 1906, Ima...png 1906 Bismarck daily tribune. [volume] (Bismarck, Dakota [N.D.]) 1881-1916, March 12, 1906, Ima...png 1926 Evening star. [volume] (Washington, D.C.) 1854-1972, June 24, 1926, Page 8, Image 8.png Ancient Stone Sites of New England and the Debate Over Early European Exploration.png
Sources:
1838 America Discovered in the Tenth Century
1875 Lives of the Irish Saints
1884 Magazine of Western History
1897 Iowa County democrat. [volume] (Mineral Point, Wis.) 1877-1938, November 18, 1897, Page 3, Image 3
1906 Bismarck daily tribune. [volume] (Bismarck, Dakota [N.D.]) 1881-1916, March 12, 1906, Image 3
1926 Evening star. [volume] (Washington, D.C.) 1854-1972, June 24, 1926, Page 8, Image 8
Ancient Stone Sites of New England and the Debate Over Early European Exploration

The Ruins of Great Ireland in New England

Irish colonists came to Southeastern North America four times, long before Columbus

Duhare – Irish “Indians” in South Carolina?

Proof an Irish colony in South Carolina predates Christopher Columbus

The Duhare: A Gaelic Colony in North America Nearly 500 Years Ago

Evidence of Fireworks in Ancient America?

How Choctaw Indians raised money for Irish Great Hunger relief
 

Knowncitizen

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Ireland was a remarkably civilized society.
And still would be if it was as racist as it was then. Being sold of to the euro didn't help much. There is a very complicated web of power involved in Irish affairs at home and world wide that goes back hundreds of years.
I think the friendliness of the Irish, Scotts and Welsh comes from this old world system. The later systems lack the closeness of the village mentality. The new village raising the child stuff is garbage. The old 80's backwardness of Ireland is lost forever.

Yeah I've smoked a bowl.
 

GaelicWestIndian

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Lovely post. Brehon Law seems to represent an illustrious past that we are only just beginning to reawaken to. As a Descendant of the original peoples of Ireland, exiled to Jamaica by Oliver Cromwell (a story that needs to be examined) I am quite proud of this system of law that was pioneered by my ancestors and I think all of us who know this is our heritage need to push for it's implementation in our homes and amongst our families
 

JWW427

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I love Ireland! My ancestors were from Ulster county.
The country is very, very energetic with earth energy, stone circle portals, and Gaia connection, which is why I think everyone wanted to conquer the place. But did they?

I found this very funny:


Ireland is constantly said to be one of the best places on Earth but this article disagrees with that assumption. Instead, here are 14 reasons why Ireland is the worst place on Earth.

1. The scenery is rubbish
valentia isalnd
Valentia Isalnd, Co. Kerry.
2. The beaches are terrible
portsalon edit
Portsalon Beach, Co. Donegal.
3. The roads are too busy
N67 Gee
N67, Co. Galway.
4. The coast is ugly
Cliffs of Tory Island, CO. Donegal. Credit to Owen clarke photography
Cliffs of Tory Island, Co. Donegal. Credit to Owen clarke photography.
5. There are no hidden gems
Bloody Bridge
Bloody Bridge, Co. Down.
6. The lakes are rubbish
IMG_3534
Glendalough, CO. Wicklow. Credit: Joe McConkey.
7. There are no scenic mountains
Benbulben, Co. Sligo.
Benbulben, Co. Sligo.
8. The old castles make the surroundings look worse than they already are
Rock of Cashel, Co. Tipperary. An amazing place! Share this picture if you agree
Rock of Cashel, Co. Tipperary.
9. Dublin is an ugly place

www.centralhoteldublin.com

Dublin. Credit: www.centralhoteldublin.com.
 

Citezenship

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Dublin is such beautiful city and to me part of that old world but i cant find a star fort there or on any old maps, there is one just on the outskirts but think it is a recent one, although a view of the city from above it looks like set of lungs with a windpipe to my eyes at least.
To keep inline with the op i think Ireland must have been one of the last strongholds of our old world as it has so many medieval looking places and plenty of star forts and citadels, the londonderry citadel for instance is huge.

Screenshot 2020-11-24 at 00.25.04.png
Screenshot 2020-11-24 at 00.32.13.png
Screenshot 2020-11-24 at 00.36.59.png
 

Blue Ice

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According to traditional history, it was the Irish monks who preserved the knowledge of the antique world and passed it on to the rest of the Europeans, which led to the Renaissance. But since I’m so diubtful now about the traditional version of history, I don’t know what to believe.

I also want to know more about bardic schools in Ireland. Education based on aesthetics - sounds fascinating.
 

wild heretic

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Since I live in Ireland, maybe I'm biased. Dublin is no great shakes. It's pretty poor by Euro standards. When I lived there around 2007, it was pretty dirty and terrible to get around, public transport-wise.

Most of Ireland looks like a giant farm and is very flat. There are exceptions of course on the west coast: Connemara, Kerry, Donegal etc. It has some nice lakes, but in all honesty, it's a much poorer version of Scotland in terms of scenery. Wexford has great beaches and the south-east has nice places to swim.

Where I live, the rivers are ok for trout, but Irish rivers and even canals are not a patch on what they were decades ago for fishing. You can thank corruption in energy and river management for that.

Scotland is better in just about everything in the areas of wildlife and scenery, except it can get colder than Ireland which is generally pretty mild all year round (5 to 20 degrees with some exceptions). It rains a lot in Ireland, with many frequent weather changes during the day.
 

dreamtime

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Here's a mainstream documentary about the genocide on the Irish:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DK-GoVkRjw


I always liked this song by Primordial for it's melancholic spirit. It is about the Irish Coffin Ships, escaping the Potato Famine:

Coffin ships carrying emigrants, crowded and disease-ridden, with poor access to food and water, resulted in the deaths of many people as they crossed the Atlantic, and led to the 1847 North American typhus epidemic at quarantine stations in Canada. Owners of coffin ships provided as little food, water and living space as was legally possible, if they obeyed the law at all.


The Coffin Ships

Our young hearts are born with grief
And we have payed the penalty of truth
A season of our stolen youth
Shall teach old hearts to break

It feels like I've been here before
Here, where the animals lay down to die
So we stand alone on a distant shore
Our Broken spirits in rags and tatters

With knot and muscle, and heart and brain
They are lost to Ireland, they are lost in vain
So you pause and you can almost hear
The sounds they echo down through the ages
The creak of the burial cart
Here in humiliation and sorrow
Not unmixed with indignation
So one is driven to exclaim
Oh god, that bread should be so dear
And human flesh so cheap.

Famine-Memorial-stone-that-bread-should-be-so-dear-and-human-flesh-so-cheap.jpg Wall-plaque-at-the-Abbeystrewry-Cemetry-in-Skibbereen-County-Cork.jpg
 

fabiorem

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Punishment in the past consisted not of imprisonment, but of banishment. The individual who commited a crime was banished from his community, and had to fend off for himself.
Imprisonment implies the local authorities have to pay for food and shelter for the criminal, and this was only possible with centralized governments. As the State monster grows bigger over time, more and more taxes were created, and so the prisons got bigger. What we have today is a devouring leviathan, the modern State, which now wants to imprison people in their own homes, and pay for their food and shelter through welfare. The leviathan will print money until the system collapses, and then will offer a "solution" through quantum dot technology.
 

Oracle

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I love Ireland! My ancestors were from Ulster county.
The country is very, very energetic with earth energy, stone circle portals, and Gaia connection, which is why I think everyone wanted to conquer the place. But did they?

I found this very funny:


Ireland is constantly said to be one of the best places on Earth but this article disagrees with that assumption. Instead, here are 14 reasons why Ireland is the worst place on Earth.

1. The scenery is rubbish
valentia isalnd
Valentia Isalnd, Co. Kerry.
2. The beaches are terrible
portsalon edit
Portsalon Beach, Co. Donegal.
3. The roads are too busy
N67 Gee
N67, Co. Galway.
4. The coast is ugly
Cliffs of Tory Island, CO. Donegal. Credit to Owen clarke photography
Cliffs of Tory Island, Co. Donegal. Credit to Owen clarke photography.
5. There are no hidden gems
Bloody Bridge
Bloody Bridge, Co. Down.
6. The lakes are rubbish
IMG_3534
Glendalough, CO. Wicklow. Credit: Joe McConkey.
7. There are no scenic mountains
Benbulben, Co. Sligo.
Benbulben, Co. Sligo.
8. The old castles make the surroundings look worse than they already are
Rock of Cashel, Co. Tipperary. An amazing place! Share this picture if you agree
Rock of Cashel, Co. Tipperary.
9. Dublin is an ugly place

www.centralhoteldublin.com

Dublin. Credit: www.centralhoteldublin.com.
Just for your information, Ulster is a province and not a county.😘
Post automatically merged:

Looks like the Irish resisted the empire until the 17th (or even 18th) Century, and the potato famine was created to destroy the remains of the old decentralized system of the tuath under British rule.

I propose the way the old world worked was like this:

- Single, united civilization on earth that was governed locally but connected globally. This united civilization later split apart after a cataclysmic event or war (maybe around 1300 AD)
- Afterwards, the local governance did not change, but the connection between the different countries wasn't as good as before, we see development of individual languages, etc.
- no central authority, kings had spiritual functions
- caste system, but fluid
- people were judged by accomplishment and ability
- no money, no banks, no parasitism
- this system, decentralized but united in spirit, could have been called the commonwealth of earth
- The parasitic PTB stole the name commonwealth but perverted everything in order to create a central authority that controls people and enslaves.
- It took a long time to overthrow the old kingdoms because due to their decentralized governance and focus on autonomy and freedom they couldn't simply kill their leaders, they had to slowly destroy the spirit of the entire people

What remains known about the Irish system implies that life in the pre-colonial times was glorious, and doing good things and working hard mattered, for people reaped the fruits of their own labor, and people knew how to resolve conflicts without resorting to a central authority. This implies a completely different approach towards life, and means that people were in touch with themselves, and the people around them. When there is no central arbitrary authority, relationships and life as a whole become meaningful.

The connections between people living together within a small community were like a very dense web, their lifes interwoven in a single destiny, and everyone dependent on everyone else, the biggest fear was being ostracised from the community, for that usually meant total loss of one's reputation and eventually suffering or death.

Irish law is almost wholly the produet of a professional class of jurists called brithim or brehons. Originally the Druids and later the filid or poets were the keepers of the law, but by historic times jurisprudence was the professional specialization of the brehons who often were members of hereditary brehonic families and enjoyed a social and legal status just below that of the kings. The brehons survived among the native lrish until the very end of a free Irish society in the early 17th century. They were particularly marked for persecution, along with the poets and historians, by the English authorities. The statutes of Kilkenny (1366) specifically forbade the English from resorting to the brehon's law, but they were still being mentioned in English documents of the early 17th ceniury.l61 The absence from the function of law-making of the Irish kings may seem startling. But Irish kings were not legisiators nor were they normally involved in the adjudication of disputes unless requested to do so by the litigants. A king was not a sovereign; he himself could be sued and a special brehon was assigned to hear cases to which the king was a party. He was subject to the law as any other freeman. The Irish polity, the tuath, was, one distinguished modem scholar put it, "the state in swaddling clothes". It existed only in "embryo". "There was no legislature, no bailiffs or police, no public enforcement of justice . . . there was no trace of Stateadministered justice". Certain mythological kings like Cormac mac Airt were reputed to be Iawgivms and judges, but turn out to be euhemerized Celtic deities. When the kings appear in the enforcement of justice, they do so through the system of suretyship which was utilized to guarantee the enforcement of contracts and the decisions of the brehon's courts. Or they appear as representatives of the assembly of freemen to contract on their behalf with other fuafha or churchmen. Irish law is essentially brehon's law-and the absence of the State in its creation and development is one of the chief reasons for its importance as an object of our scrutiny.
Conclusion and Summary

While a comprehensive survey of the Irish law of property and property rights cannot yet be written, we can already see that the idea of private ownership permeates those aspects of the law which have been subjected to recent study. The Irish frankly and openly used assessments of property as the criterion for determining a man's social and legal status, the extent of his capacity to act as a surety or compurgator, and to fix the amounts of compensation due hi as a victim of crime or any kind of injury. Ownership of land determined a man's status as free or unfree and his right to participate in the public assembly. The needs of the Church modified but did not alter the basic character of native Irish institutions and law. While it secured for itself almost total freedom from lay ownership and secular obligations, it was never able to fully destroy the essentially secular character of Irish law as exemplified in the laws on marriage and divorce. The legal capacity of women showed exceptional development and gave women property rights in the 8th century that were centuries ahead of those enjoyed by English women. The fact that lrish law was the creation of private individuals who were professional, even hereditary, jurists, gave to the law both a conservative yet flexible and equitable character. Their power rested upon the free consent of the community in choosing them as arbitrators in disputes; and this made equity and justice more likely than in royal courts where the interests of the State and its rulers are paramount. The invasion and conquest of Ireland, the work of over 400 years before it was completed, was eventually fatal to the Irish system of law snd the culture and civilization it expressed. The English State was incompatible with the Irish tuoth; the English common law was totally incompatible with the Irish law. Ireland from the 12th century was a single land in which two nations and two laws and two cultures engaged in a constant struggle for survival. The end came in the early 17th century with the flight bf the last Irish kings from Ulster and the new plantation of that region by Protestant Scots sent by James I-that most absolute of English Kings. As for the native Irish and their ancient culture, the English official Sir John Davies thought he said it all: "For if we consider the Nature of the Irish Customes, we shall finde that the people that doeth use them, must of necessitie bee Rebelles to all good Government, destroy the commonwealth wherein they live. and bring Barbarisme and desolation upon the richest and most fruitful land of the world.'

In fact, the most glaring cause of the famine was not a plant disease, but England's long-running political hegemony over Ireland. The English conquered Ireland, several times, and took ownership of vast agricultural territory. Large chunks of land were given to Englishmen.

These landowners in turn hired farmers to manage their holdings. The managers then rented small plots to the local population in return for labor and cash crops. Competition for land resulted in high rents and smaller plots, thereby squeezing the Irish to subsistence and providing a large financial drain on the economy.

Land tenancy can be efficient, but the Irish had no rights to the land they worked or any improvements they might make. Only in areas dominated by Protestants did tenant farmers have any rights over their capital improvements. With the landlords largely residing in England, there was no one to conduct systematic capital improvements.

The Irish suffered from many famines under English rule. Like a boxer with both arms tied behind his back, the Irish could only stand and absorb blow after blow. It took the "many circumstances" of English policy to create the knockout punch and ultimate answer to the Irish question.

Each túath was a self contained unit, with its own executive, assembly, courts system and defence force. Túatha were grouped together into confederations for mutual defence. There was a hierarchy of túatha statuses, depending on geographical position and connection to the ruling dynasties of the region.[3] The organisation of túatha is covered to a great extent within the Brehon laws, Irish laws written down in the 7th century, also known as the Fénechas.[4]

The old Irish political system was altered during and after the Elizabethan conquest, being gradually replaced by a system of baronies and counties under the new colonial system. Due to a loss of knowledge, there has been some confusion regarding old territorial units in Ireland, mainly between trícha céta and túatha, which in some cases seem to be overlapping units, and in others, different measurements altogether.[5] The trícha céta were primarily for reckoning military units; specifically, the number of fighting forces a particular population could rally.[2] Some scholars equate the túath with the modern parish, whereas others equate it with the barony. This partly depends on how the territory was first incorporated into the county system. In cases where surrender and regrant was the method, the match between the old túath and the modern barony is reasonably equivalent. Whereas in cases like Ulster, which involved large scale colonisation and confiscation of land, the shape of the original divisions is not always clear or recoverable.
About two years ago I was reading traveler's in Ireland journals from the 18th century.What stood out to me was the constant complaints about the bogginess of the countryside and roads (from english travellers).
It made me wonder was this because it had recently emerged from the sea or was not long after the mudflood time.
The english traveller's journals were incredibly bigotted, to the point I stopped reading them in disgust, describing the citizens as filthy and ignorant wallowing in grime and their homes hovels.
Sounds to me like both effects of the result of being conquered and a weather anomaly.
The english newspapers described the irish as "the blacks of Europe" (propaganda much?).
The " mythical" isle of tir na nOg was said to be visible occasionally west of Ireland in even older history,many think this was the island of Atlantis.According to legend,when Oisin spent time there, one year on the Island equaled 100 on the mainland.
Oisin and tir na nOg
Also apparently travel used to be possible via the giant's causeway to Scotland (sorry no source,I read that a long time ago).
 
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matematik

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The mainstream Irish historical narrative seems to be "800 years of English oppression/attempted genocide", but why did the English supposedly want to do this for 800 years? Just for the sake of it? Just because they hate Irish people for some inexplicable reason? Because they hate Catholics, despite the Church of England being to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from the Catholic Church? It can't be for natural resources because Ireland as far as I'm aware has no resources that England doesn't, very similar type of land overall.

I recall an Irish historian wrote a book a few years ago claiming that many of the claimed English massacres in Ireland are fabricated, and that people who are claimed to have been killed in these massacres turn up in censuses and other records years after the claimed events. I can't remember what the book is called, I've searched it quickly and it might have been "Cromwell Was Framed" by Tom Reilly, but I'm not 100% sure, but I think that book is along the same lines.

Personally I suspect that something big has happened in Ireland that has been hidden by the mainstream narrative of "English brutally oppressed the Irish for centuries, just because".

Unsurprisingly Irish people and the Irish diaspora are very attached to the mainstream narrative of these issues, there is little room for questioning the narrative or any historical revisionism. Often it reminds me of Jews and the Holocaust actually, in that they have very firmly established and ingrained beliefs about what happened and no tolerance for any alternative opinions or research.
 
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liqouriceandhorses

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The mainstream Irish historical narrative seems to be "800 years of English oppression/attempted genocide", but why did the English supposedly want to do this for 800 years? Just for the sake of it? Just because they hate Irish people for some inexplicable reason? Because they hate Catholics, despite the Church of England being to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from the Catholic Church? It can't be for natural resources because Ireland as far as I'm aware has no resources that England doesn't, very similar type of land overall.

I recall an Irish historian wrote a book a few years ago claiming that many of the claimed English massacres in Ireland are fabricated, and that people who are claimed to have been killed in these massacres turn up in censuses and other records years after the claimed events. I can't remember what the book is called, I've searched it quickly and it might have been "Cromwell Was Framed" by Tom Reilly, but I'm not 100% sure, but I think that book is along the same lines.

Personally I suspect that something big has happened in Ireland that has been hidden by the mainstream narrative of "English brutally oppressed the Irish for centuries, just because".

Unsurprisingly Irish people and the Irish diaspora are very attached to the mainstream narrative of these issues, there is little room for questioning the narrative or any historical revisionism. Often it reminds me of Jews and the Holocaust actually, in that they have very firmly established and ingrained beliefs about what happened and no tolerance for any alternative opinions or research.

There are many of those you speak of as well as the other traveller sub groups there.
This might be why the American Irish are so patriotic?
But I do believe the english empire expanded to the west just like they did where ever they could. The Irish were forced out of their land, probably so London / England could make money or just supply them selves. They dont like competition, look at the world war for example.
 

matematik

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Why has Ireland so few trees? :unsure:
The "official" reason seems to be that the English deforested all their land for shipbuilding which sounds like far-fetched nonsense to me designed to appeal to nationalistic sentiment. For a start it seems highly dubious there would have ever been a need for that much wood, which must have been almost every tree in Ireland if it was covered in forest at one point. Also, would deforestation on that scale in such a short period of time have even been possible with technology of the era as we are told it was?

Another point I'd make is that tree cover in Britain is not much higher, especially in England although England is a significantly more densely populated country than Ireland so maybe that accounts for a lot of the loss here, but it seems to me that neither Ireland or Britain have a great amount of tree cover compared to much of the world.

Also, on the shipbuilding thing, Portugal has a long history as a seafaring nation, so presumably built a lot of ships and yet tree cover in Portugal is significantly higher than both Ireland and Britain, so why didn't this effect their tree cover like Britain and Ireland if shipbuilding is the reason?
 
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