SH Archive Madoc and Five Civilized Tribes OP Username
Nostradennis OP Date
2020-03-11 22:52:07 Reaction Score
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Sep 26, 2020
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A Tale of Two One Madoc
Folklore, Story, Legend ? Part I
Madoc, also spelled Madog, ab Owain Gwynedd was, according to folklore, a Welsh prince who sailed to America in 1170, over three hundred years before Christopher Columbus's voyage in 1492. According to the story, he was a son of Owain Gwynedd, and took to the sea in to flee internecine violence at home. A Welsh poem of the 15th century tells how Prince Madoc sailed away in 10 ships and discovered America.

The "Madoc story" legend evidently evolved out of a medieval tradition about a Welsh hero's sea voyage, to which only allusions survive. However, it attained its greatest prominence during the Elizabethan era, when English and Welsh writers wrote of the claim that Madoc had come to the Americas as an assertion of prior discovery, and hence legal possession of North America by the Kingdom of England.

The "Madoc story" remained popular in later centuries, and a later development asserted that Madoc's voyagers had intermarried with local Native Americans, and that their Welsh-speaking descendants still live somewhere in the United States. These "Welsh Indians" were credited with the construction of a number of landmarks throughout the Midwestern United States. Eventually, the legend settled on identifying the Welsh Indians with the Mandan people, who differed strikingly from their neighbors in culture, language, and appearance.

Explorers who visited or lived with the Mandan people of North Dakota, including the Lewis and Clark expedition in 1804-05 and nineteenth-century painter George Catlin, reported that their language was so similar to Welsh that the Mandan people understood it. However, a Welsh traveller named John Evans spent the winter of 1796-97 with the Mandans while searching for the “Welsh Indians”. His conclusion? There weren’t any. If Lewis and Clark found Mandans who understood Welsh, the Mandans had probably learned it from Evans eight years earlier.

In 1580 Welshman John Dee revived Madoc to counter Spain’s American claims, presenting Queen Elizabeth I with “Title Royal” to Madoc’s American discoveries. John Dee often let politically motivated conjecture trump rationality; he decried the intrusion of fiction into history but claimed Greenland for Britain because King Arthur had conquered it.
*For reference, this Madoc will be noted as Madoc I. When referencing Madoc I think Welsh prince, sailed to America in 10 ships,12th century America, Elizabethan era, Welsh Indians (Mandan tribe only), legal possession of North America, Once upon a time.., and the color ? Brown

Story, Folklore, Legend ? Part II
There is historical and archaeological proof that many Welsh/British people came to America in 574 AD and settled on the east coast of America, known as the New World back then. These people were of Cimmerian ancestry. The Cimmerians are also known as the Kimmerians. The Cimmerians were descendants of the 12 Tribes of Israel and were white Christians.

The original lost Ten Tribes, up to two million strong, never got lost; they cultivated the European continent giving birth to European civilization, using Prydain/Britain as their base and went on to inhabit North America, Canada, Argentina, Australia and New Zealand in large numbers in recent centuries.


A Summary of their Migration to America
In 562 AD a comet hits Britain making a lot of land inhabitable. A fire burned along its destructive path for 11 days. Evidence of which can be found in several Scottish forts that were vitrified - turned into glass because the fire was so hot and intense. Over two million people died. This caused many Britains to move north to more habitable land. King Arthur survived and brought the 5,000 people left alive in his land to Brittany to seek refuge. When there he had a message sent to the Pope for assistance. This message was actually written in the Papal record along with an order to destroy all references to this comet!

So Arthur, getting no help from the Pope or Brittany heads up to Norway and then over to Iceland. Did he stop at the North Pole along the way? We do have record of Arthur travelling there as well, written about in the Gestai Arthuria. It states that eight people came to the King’s court in Norway saying they came from the lands of the North Pole. One, a priest, mentioned that King Arthur sailed there May 3, of 531 AD with 12 ships. Five of the twelve were smashed against rocks and were shipwrecked, but the other seven made it there. While he was up north, it was recorded that his brother Prince Madoc built 700 ships in Cardiff, presumably with all the fallen timber, and set sail for America.

When the comet hit, Prince Madoc was at sea and it caused his boat to drift off course and he ended up in America. In 572 AD, Prince Madoc returned to Britain and told, his brother, King Arthur II about America. In about 574 AD, King Arthur II and approximately 70,000 Europeans migrated in 700 boats to America. These new arrivals to America later became known as Native Americans or Indians. I’m sure they became part of the Five Civilized Tribes. In 579AD, King Arthur II was killed, in Kentucky, by a naked savage and was returned to Britain for burial.

The most prominent early Indian tribes in Kentucky were the Cherokee, Chickasaw, and Shawnee. Shawnee Indians were considered uncivilized. Since there were tribes that were considered uncivilized tribes in the area, one of them was probably responsible for King Arthur’s death. There was much history written “pre” this comet and "post”, but during this time, very little was written, hence the Dark Ages.
**For reference, this Madoc will be noted as Madoc II. When referencing Madoc II think Welsh prince, brother of King Arthur, 6th century America, beginning of a Dark Age, the more ancient Five Civilized Tribes, and the color Royal Purple**

Five Civilized Tribes

indigenous (adj.)
  • "born or originating in a particular place," 1640s, from Late Latin indigenus "born in a country, native," from Latin indigena"sprung from the land, native," as a noun, "a native," literally "in-born," or "born in (a place)," from Old Latin indu (prep.) "in, within" + gignere (perfective genui) "to beget, produce," from PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget," with derivatives referring to procreation and familial and tribal groups.
  • Origin and meaning of indigenous by Online Etymology Dictionary
Indian/Indien comes from the word indigenous. North American Indians are Native Born Americans. Were these the Indiens Christopher Columbus was searching a trade route for?
Since earliest contact with European explorers in the 1500’s, the Cherokee Nation has been identified as one of the most advanced among Native American tribes. Cherokee culture thrived for thousands of years in the southeastern United States before European contact.

Cherokees and Hebrew Similarities
  • The Cherokee name for the Creator is YoHeWaH
  • YoHeWaH is ONE triune being called El-o-HeyM
  • The Cherokee word for earth is “yahkane”. It means Yah’s footstool.
  • The Cherokee word for wife is "havah” or “avah”. “Chavvah” a similar sounding Hebrew word that means “giver of life” has been translated into English as Eve.
  • The Cherokee forbid the practice of divination. Witchcraft and “bad medicine” was punishable by death.
  • When the Cherokee went to war they carried a sacred ark into battle.

"The Indian ark is of a very simple construction, and it is only the intention and application of it, that makes it worthy of notice; for it is made with pieces of wood securely fashioned together in the form of a square. The middle of three of the sides extend a little out, but one side is flat, for the conveniency of the person's back who carries it. Their ark has a cover and the whole is made impenetrably close with Hickory splinters; the leader, and a beloved waiter, carry it by turns. It contains several consecrated vessels, made by super annuated (ghi ga hu) women, and of such various antiquated forms, as would have puzzled Adam to give significant names to each. The leader and his attendant, are purified longer than the rest of the company, that the first may be fit to act in the religious office of a priest of war, and the other to carry the awful sacred ark. All the while they are at war, the Hessitu, or "beloved waiter" feeds each of the warriors by an exact stated rule, giving them even the water they drink, out of his own hands, lest by intemperance they should spoil the supposed communicative power of their holy things, and occasion fatal disasters to the war camp. In speaking of the Indian places of refuge for the unfortunate, I observed, that if a captive taken by the reputed power of the beloved things of the ark, should be able to make his escape into one of these towns, or even into the winter house of the Archi-magus, he is delivered from the fiery torture, otherwise inevitable. It is also highly worthy of notice, that they never place the ark on the ground, nor sit on the bare earth while they are carrying it against the enemy."
In both Hebrew and Cherokee cultures a new day begins at sunset. A new month begins with the first sighting of the new moon. The new year, which is celebrated with a gathering, begins with the first sighting of a new moon in the Spring equinox.

Both Cherokee and Hebrews sacrificed fat offerings for sin, trespass, and peace. Both Cherokee and Hebrew priests wore white robes, 72 bells, a sleeveless jacket, and a breast plate set with 12 stones.

At some time in their ancient past, the Cherokee people have either been greatly influenced by Hebrews, or the Cherokee people are in fact descended from Israel’s scattered tribes. And there are other Tribes living in the Southeast (the Chickasaw, Choctaw, Haliwa-Saponi, and the Muskogee Creek) whose tradition and culture show a Hebraic influence, but these are not as well documented as those of the Cherokee.
The earliest recorded history of the Chickasaw Nation began in 1540, when Hernando de Soto encountered the tribe on his travels throughout the southeastern portion of the continent.

Fred Tecumseh Waite, a cowboy
and Chickasaw Nation Statesman

Variously described as the “Unconquered” or the “Spartans of the Lower Mississippi Valley,” the Chickasaw were the most formidable warriors of the American Southeast.

In the 1850s Holmes Colbert (Chickasaw)
helped Write the Constitution

The Chickasaw migration story tells us that before the Choctaw and Chickasaw were two different tribes they were one entity led by two brothers, Chahta and Chiksa.

**Are King Arthur and his brother Prince Madoc II the progenitors of the Choctaw and Chickasaw Native American tribes?**

The Chickasaw Migration Story: Journey from the Place of the Setting Sun

Choctaw Indian Nation traces its ancestry to Mississippi and some sections of Alabama. Legends tell that the Choctaw people originated from "Nanih Waya" a sacred hill near what is now known as Noxapter, Mississippi. "Nanih Waiya" means "Productive Mound" and is often referred to as "The Mother Mound".

The Choctaw state is the modern descendant of a proud and old chiefdom whose roots lie in the ancient mound-building civilizations of the Southeast. The Choctaw tell two stories about their origins, and both give central importance to the mound Nanih Waiya, which is a few miles north of the capital city Kunsha. In one version of the story, the founder brothers Chiksa' and Chahta led their people out of the far west. They parted ways at the site of Nanih Waiya, with the Choctaw staying and the Ckicasaw continuing to wander. The Choctaw people then built the mound themselves. In another version, the people emerged from the earth beneath the mound itself, with Chahta becoming the leader of the people who stayed closest. Although the Choctaw and Chicasaw acknowledge one another to be close relatives, much of their history has been defined by conflict between them.

They trace their roots to a mound-building (300 to 600 CE), maize-based society that flourished in the Mississippi River Valley for more than a thousand years before European contact. The Choctaw were preeminently the agriculturists of the southern Indians. The Choctaw language is closely related to the Creek language and belongs to the great Algonquian language family.

Modern Gaelic preserves many spelled letters that are no longer pronounced, but when pronounced in the ancient Gaulish or ancestral tongue of the Celts and Basques, one finds a striking similarity to the Algonquian language.
She was the daughter of Powhatan, an Algonquin speaking chief. Historian William Stith claimed that "her real name, it seems, was originally Matoax, which the Indians carefully concealed from the English and changed it to Pocahontas, out of a superstitious fear, lest they, by the knowledge of her true name". According to anthropologist Helen C. Roundtree, Pocahontas revealed her secret name to the colonists "only after she had taken another religious—baptismal—name" of Rebecca.

Conjecture: Is Matoax Algonquin for Madoc? Phonetically similar yes? Was this why Pocahontas was captured and held for ransom by the Colonists who sent her to England and then died in 1617 at Gravesend of unknown causes? Was she of royal Welsh ancestry?

Muscogee (Creek)
The Muscogee (Creek) people are descendents of a remarkable culture that, before 1500 AD, spanned all the region known today as the Southeastern United States. Early ancestors of the Muscogee constructed magnificent earthen pyramids along the rivers of the this region as part of their elaborate ceremonial complexes. The Etowah Mounds of Georgia were made during the same Mississippian Temple Mound Building Period, as were mounds at Moundville (near Tuscaloosa, Alabama) and at Cahokia – roughly 700 AD to 1400 AD.


This mound is conical, like Silbury Hill in England. Archaeologists believe that it was constructed by the Adena Indians (800 BC – 100 AD). The mound sits on a 100 foot high bluff, and measures 877 feet in circumference. Originally it attained a height of 70 feet.

There are old-style Welsh hill forts around the Ohio River valley that are patterned as they are in Britain. They have a lot of inscriptions out there, carved in caves and on artifacts which are in coelbren, the old Welsh alphabet mainly recorded in South-East Wales. The idea is that Madoc did go to America; the question then is, 'Which Madoc'?
Seminole / (Cimmerians)
The Cimmerians (also Kimmerians; Greek: Κιμμέριοι, Kimmérioi) were a nomadic Indo-European people, who appeared about 1000 BC and are mentioned later in 8th century BC in Assyrian records. While the Cimmerians were often described by contemporaries as culturally "Scythian", they evidently differed ethnically from the Scythians proper, who also displaced and replaced the Cimmerians.

The true Cimmerians were probably the Seminole Indians. Seminole is derived from cimarrón, a Spanish term for "runaway" or "wild one", historically used for certain Native American groups in Florida. The Cimmerians were identified with a large population of the Lost Israelites tribes running away from Assyrian captivity.

There is a river named Cimarron River in the United States and Wikipedia says it means ‘wild sheep’.

History Summation: Both Madoc I and Madoc II were Welsh princes. Both took to sea to flee a homeland disaster, one due to an internecine violence the other a comet. Both landed in the New World and are associated with Welsh speaking Native American Indians. Both arrived before the discovery of Christopher Columbus. Madoc I gets plenty of internet coverage. Madoc II has one source, primarily Alan Wilson, who is labeled an "amateur historian" in Wikipedia without any futher distinction.

Was the "legend" of Prince Madoc I by Elizabethan Protestant occult advisor John Dee the genesis of a land grab plot to steal North America from Catholic Spain ?

Hypothesis History
Elizabeth I’s father, King Henry VIII, had established the English Reformation, removing the Church of England from the authority of the Catholic Pope in Rome. Under the reign of her brother, King Edward VI, England became a Protestant country. Though Queen Mary I, Elizabeth’s older sister, had tried to turn the country back to Catholicism, she had failed.
The two countries were thus left on opposing sides of the greatest political and religious division of the age.

Mary Queen of Scots had been the best contender to claim the throne of England in the event of the childless Elizabeth’s death. As a Catholic, she posed a threat to the Protestant establishment and had been imprisoned by Elizabeth. Spies encouraged a plot around Mary and created evidence that she was scheming against Elizabeth, all of which led to Mary’s execution on that cold February day.

Queen Elizabeth I encouraged privateers – state-licensed pirates – to raid Spanish ports and ships. Sir Francis Drake’s plundering of Spanish colonies in 1585 and his raid on Cadiz in 1587 were arguably the most brazen actions in what was effectively an undeclared war, the spoils of which filled the English treasury at Spain’s expense. Philip had to do something to stop the attacks.

The English also threatened Spain’s wealth and power in other ways. Much of the New World was governed by Spain, but now the English were trying to establish colonies there. If they succeeded, then Spain’s monopoly on the wealth coming from the Americas would be critically undermined. Throw in John Dee's land grab plot and it's enough to make you want to launch an armada, the Spanish Armada in 1588.

Maddoc Hypothesis Conclusion
The Prince Madoc I story likely began as a justification for John Dee's British Empire vision and to delegitimize the Spanish claim of Christopher Columbus's discovery of the New World. I think Christopher Columbus's discovery in 1492 was a real documented and titled (Titulo) historical event. I think the New World was relatively known to the aristocracy (pun intended) at the time but was not properly claimed and deeded as such. I think Spain funded the voyage to shore all legal loose ends, BAR none.
I think Madoc II and his timeline was real. I believe there is historical evidence that Prince Madoc II and his brother King Arthur were the progenitors of the Chickasaw and Choctaw tribes in America. Most of the historical ‘Establishment’ dismiss the Madoc I story, partly on grounds of the paucity of pre-Colombian evidence for his existence and the strong political motives of the Tudors to promote the legend.

I think Madoc I and his timeline was an English attempt at adjusting the goal posts of time in a real life 'game of thrones'. Consequently, the real / historical Prince Madoc, ie, Madoc II and brother of King Arthur, is now buried deep under historical internet revisionism. The Madoc I legend also allows for a convenient insertion of a "Jewish" ancestry marker to co-opt any legitimate Hebrew (Israelite) historical reference. It is extremely important to understand the distinction between Hebrew (white Israelite) and Jew (miscegenation Edomite) and know why they are not interchangeable. The white Hebrew Israelites of historical record ≠ the Edomite Khazarian Jews of today.

In the end myth can sometimes have a greater impact on people's minds and imaginations than the actual history. Another way of expressing this sentiment is to say that what actually occurs in history is sometimes less important than what people believed happened.

Five Civilized Tribes Hypothesis Conclusion
When I think of these Five Tribes of America I also think of the Ten Tribes of Israel, ie, 'five' will get you 'ten' if you follow my drift. According to scholars, the Scythians and Cimmerians were identified with a large population of the Lost Israelites tribes that were once in exile.

The Cimmerians migrated both into Western Europe and to the south, by way of the Caucasus. The Assyrians recorded the migrations of the Cimmerians. The Cimmerians occupied Phrygia and Lydia around 650 BC. After that the Cimmerians disappear from the historical record. It is here that I believe the Cimmerians set sail for a new homeland and found it in the New World. They found it in what is now the Southeastern United States.

The Seminole and the Cherokee were from this Cimmerian group. Of the Five Civilized Tribes, I believe these two are the elder statesmen tribes in America from the 2 million lost ten tribes of Israel exiles of the post Assyrian migration. The majority of this migration founded the white druidical nations of Europe, but a sliver of these became the white Seminole and the white Cherokee tribes of America.

I believe the two brothers, Chahta and Chiksa', were King Arthur and Prince Madoc II and the progenitors of the Choctaw and Chickasaw respectively. The Creek tribe was probably an amalgamation of these two tribes that went their own way. This was the beginning of a second wave of migration. I see the 70,000 white Europeans and the 700 ships footprint all over the 'Pale Face' North American Indians. The epicenter of disinformation is the showing of the Mongoloid native tribes from the West as being the face of the Five Civilized Tribes of the East. Knowing this one is able to peel back the deception that bogs down internet research.

What was the real “Indian problem” behind the forced migration of the Trail of Tears shame? It was not to “civilize” these Native Americans for they were that already. Was it because their white European ancestry in Eastern America stuck out like a sore thumb when contrasted to the more red skin Siberian ancestry in Western America?

It is from these vantage points that further research should logically ensue. If this premise is given a little more attention who knows were it could go from here. For me it all boils down to this. The white ten tribes of Israel became the white Christian nations of Europe and eventually gave way to white Christian America. Christian persecution is real. It may not be the lions in the arena of old but more of a hideous, slow, methodical chipping away of Christian morality and the Christian family through deception and disinformation.

Note: This OP was recovered from the KeeperOfTheKnowledge archive.
Note: Archived replies to this OP: Madoc and Five Civilized Tribes

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