SH Archive Replies Tartarian Professional Knights: Tournaments and Parades in Nuremberg

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dreamtime

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Username: dreamtime
Date: 2018-12-28 14:12:01
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I wrote this a while ago on Reddit:

I have the rough idea in mind that bloody wars are a relatively new thing, and evolved from something less serious. I don't think that history was without violence and people killing each other, but that bigger battles originally had certain rules to it that made the chance of dying relatively low and the chance of getting hurt reasonable. Maybe there was the possibility of death, but it wasn't as hopeless as portraied by historians. So instead of casualties in the realms of 10-100% it could have been more like 0-1%. Originally I thought about this because even in WW1 soldiers were basically faking the fights, and often miss their enemy consciously. Only in WW2 with the help of numbing drugs was this brotherly and humane behavior eliminated. Additionally most theories about ancient conflicts and battles are not supported by archeologists finding all those killed bodies, but by circumstantial evidence., i.e. later reports. I think even such reports may have been part of the "storyline", i.e. the winner exaggerating to create sympathy and pride for the war heroes in their populace. Then historians mis-interpreted these reports without knowing the true context. I think what is supportive of this idea is the growing evidence that natural catastrophes of some sort and famines probably killed most people during the last centuries, and not wars. Overall I think human conflicts may have begun as different factions only signaling their strength, and all involved parties honoring rules what would nowadays be interpreted as game rules. After some time with the rise of authoritarian kingdoms these games turned into something more bloody, but still manageable (i.e. people still went to war happily, because the chances of surviving were extremely good and winners would come home to a big party). I knew from my research that no one has excavated a single mass grave from the 30-Years War. I wondered if anyone in the professional field has already thought about the problems of finding archeological evidence for battle sites in general, and this is indeed the case. In fact, a paper I found discusses these problems.

And indeed the archeological evidence for battle sites is almost non-existent:
Apparently medieval descriptions from the burial of the dead after the battle of Morat in 1476 aren't supported by any archeological evidence:
No dead people from the Napoleonic wars either:
Actually no evidence at all for dead people:
These quotes send shivers down my spine because it confirms that the version of history that the majority of people believe in is an illusion and we are onto something here with the idea of humanity having a more worthy past.

All in all I think reports of battles are a mix of truth, myths, lies and exaggeration and often include the loss of life that happened due to cataclysms and natural catastrophes, whatever they were exactly.
 

anotherlayer

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Username: anotherlayer
Date: 2018-12-28 14:46:12
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This first word "Xnders"(whatever it says) also appears in the middle of the second name. Might that be some sort of role? Perhaps denoting these dudes as a jockey or striker?

Closest I can get would be 'Xnders DeSmidmor' and his lovely wife, 'Rolff Xnders Linds'.
 

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trismegistus

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Username: trismegistus
Date: 2018-12-28 20:42:03
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I see Yndrrs Resmidmor (Xcsmidmor?) and Noetr Yndrrs Lincks, but admittedly its a bit like looking at a shrink's ink blots :geek:
 

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Username: Deleted_x7
Date: 2018-12-28 22:43:12
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Ive read somewhere (dont recall where ATM, maybe here) that a 'hooked X' was actually the first letter of the AlphaBet. so this may have also been written like that?

Anders makes more sense than Xnders, yes?

p.s. the hooked X is quite interesting. heres a hit: The Hooked X: Book
 
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Username: PrincepAugus
Date: 2019-02-02 05:44:40
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I remember this post when watching this video. It's a mainstream "explanation" of missing bodies:

 

Mabzynn

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Username: Mabzynn
Date: 2020-01-03 13:28:07
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I have not been successful in tracking much down on these names:

Earliest reference I can find to an Anders is in this book: Ordonnantie en[de] Placcate vanden thienden pennink ende anders ghepubliceert in Hollant, inden Jaere 1553 (in d. 31 mei).

I did come across a version of the double headed eagle that I am not familiar with in the book.


trt1.jpgtrt2.jpg
As for the owl and tartary... La Science héroïque traitant de la noblesse et de l'origine des armes, de leurs blasons et symboles...

trt3.jpg

Gold has a sand owl. The Tartars took this bird for the arms of their Empire, in recognition and memory of the fact that Changis their first Emperor, whom they call the great Cham, was saved by means of such a bird, and yet many believe that the owl is an ominous bird, symbol of misfortune, infelicity, misery, and death; this is why those who wish to represent the bad omens preach an owl...
 

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Username: in cahoots
Date: 2020-01-03 23:52:07
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Changis? That's the Mongolian pronunciation of "Genghis", as in Genghis Khan (which is a title, not a name, and refers to a person who probably never existed, but let's bear this out). Weirdly, the abbreviation to "Cham" also closely resembles the "Khan" we find included in the anglicized name. "Khan" being a widespread word (czar/tsar, caeser, kaiser, king, xan) of ambiguous 3rd-century origin among the Xiongnu, and then the Gokturks. The title "resurges" to prominence in 13th-century with Temujin andhis alleged sons.
 

Felix Noille

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Username: Felixnoille
Date: 2020-01-05 11:12:17
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I don’t really have anything concrete to add to this thread. However, I find the subject very interesting, especially with regard to the missing bodies issue. I was recently looking into Indian ‘history’ and found that apparently, during the middle ages, Muslim invasions have accounted for over 60 million deaths. When you add that figure to the casualties of all the other conflicts, catastrophes and plagues that were supposed to be going on, were there really enough people about?

We have this concept of a harmonious lost worldwide civilisation, who were master builders, in tune with their environment, tolerant, cuddly etc. etc., so these incidents of carnage on a massive scale just don’t add up. Have these tales of death and destruction been added into our conscious awareness to promote not only the idea of evolution from a barbaric past, but to engender racial and religious divisions that will be inherited by subsequent generations?

The idea of settling disputes by jousting contests does fit with the previous advanced civilisation concept as, to my mind, the ‘advanced’ bit doesn’t just apply to buildings and technology.
 

Mabzynn

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Username: Mabzynn
Date: 2020-01-06 17:43:46
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I wanted to break this down a bit further because there's some really interesting other images in the book Korben:

Hapsburg black and yellow with a Gold Owl burning over fire.... (hmmm)

knight1.JPG

More Tartary next to a naked guy with wings riding a horse head on a stick?

knight2.JPG
 

Timeshifter

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Username: Timeshifter
Date: 2020-01-06 18:54:47
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Is that another one of those none human, alien/ hibrid suits of armour again?

20200106_185256.jpg
 

Mabzynn

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Username: Mabzynn
Date: 2020-01-06 19:27:14
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There's a whole bunch of weird stuff that doesn't fit a Catholic nation. Bunch of Moor's competed as well. Then one guy at the end who just didn't feel like getting dressed up which made me laugh. Literally couldn't find a single thing that appeared Christian to me.

Also found a tournament book from a century prior: Album de tournois de Nüremberg

 

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Username: jd755
Date: 2020-01-06 19:53:04
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To be fair, there are crosses on this poor horse,

DP202051.jpg

and a heathcock on this one

DP202050.jpg
And all on sleds not carts!
but this one brings the whole 'dating' into question as these black briefs appear very 20th century to me and that bath very 19th century.

briefs.jpg
 

Mabzynn

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Username: Mabzynn
Date: 2020-01-06 20:49:56
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I'm not so sure a bird represents Christianity, but if those are indeed crosses and not just a random pattern on the horse that is a very sad way for Christianity to be represented at this period. lol
 

_harris

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Username: 0harris0
Date: 2020-01-06 21:37:57
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I would describe those owls' colours as Sable, the tartarian is described, "Gold, with Sable Owl"
but the owl over a fire is an odd one!

Noticed there are a few repeating Symbols on the shields -
"Haller" comes up in at least a few, Red shield with white/black triangles!
"Schurstab" is white sheild with crossed black sticks(?)
"Waldestromer" is red sheild with crossed silver "pitchforks"
there's another (white/silver "cat" on red sheild), not sure if they both represent the same! the writing is a pretty difficult script to comprehend!
 
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