The Church Inquisition did not persecute people, but counterfeit coins

fabiorem

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You made a statement that gave no indication of speculation.


I did. I said "when you consider". This means it is conjecture. If you are questioning history, you need to speculate.
I also showed evidence that in my language, witch is a old word for the wick used to lighten oil lamps. Also notice that witch and wick are similar as well.

People can disagree with you any time they want and anywhere they want, for whatever reason - it's a forum.


I don't have any problem with people disagreeing, just don't bully them.
 

fabiorem

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I was checking swedish history about witches, at first glance it seems to disprove the thread. But just after a closer inspection, the swedish events seems more related to sexual perversion and some insanity among woman and children, possibly after years of heavy losses in war.(less men at home?) combined with viral hearsay and fear.


I think actual women burning happened in protestant countries, because they didn't inherited the inquisition tribunal from the catholic church, and so didn't inherited their procedures, taking the Malleus Maleficarum terms literally.
Notice that coins, when they don't have the faces of kings and politicians, usually have the face of a woman. This is the witch that was burned by the inquisition. But peasants took the meaning literally, killing women accused of "witchcraft".
Also there is this idea that christianity might have been of pagan origin in the past, instead of jewish, and that judaism appeared after it, not before. Only later would christianity become jewish, with the reformation. And the witch hunts starts at around the same time of the reformation.
 

Theinquisitor2328

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Very interesting, investigating heresy and witchcraft could have simply been a cover in order to hide the true nature of the investigation so that no peasants would hide the evidence. Since they were Catholics maybe they did ask people to confess their sins or any heretical beliefs as they passed from town to town searching for counterfeit money. This would strengthen the peasants belief that the inquisitors were looking for heretics and witches and not anything else. Thanks for the info God bless!
 

Will Scarlet

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Notice that coins, when they don't have the faces of kings and politicians, usually have the face of a woman. This is the witch that was burned by the inquisition. But peasants took the meaning literally, killing women accused of "witchcraft".

Maybe, perhaps, you will take this as bullying, but it isn't meant that way. I don't understand your statements. Are you stating that coins were minted with the image of burned witches on them? Or do you mean that the Inquisition deliberately minted the images of women on coins so that peasants would understand that to mean 'kill women accused of witchcraft?'

Also there is this idea that christianity might have been of pagan origin in the past, instead of jewish, and that judaism appeared after it, not before. Only later would christianity become jewish, with the reformation.

Do you have any sources for this idea please? It sounds interesting, albeit crazy.
 

usselo

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I think actual women burning happened in protestant countries, because they didn't inherited the inquisition tribunal from the catholic church, and so didn't inherited their procedures, taking the Malleus Maleficarum terms literally.
Notice that coins, when they don't have the faces of kings and politicians, usually have the face of a woman. This is the witch that was burned by the inquisition. But peasants took the meaning literally, killing women accused of "witchcraft".
Also there is this idea that christianity might have been of pagan origin in the past, instead of jewish, and that judaism appeared after it, not before. Only later would christianity become jewish, with the reformation. And the witch hunts starts at around the same time of the reformation.
There are several propositions there, evidence for which might be useful.

It's not an area I've looked at so I'm not sure I understand the background or the implications, but as a first pass at finding analyseable / discussable evidence:

First, a witch hunt timeline to help us identify the events. No idea how accurate it is: ThoughtCo's European witch hunt timeline

Second, I think you are suggesting that a protestant christianity introduced - or expanded - witchcraft hunts and increased the severity of punishment. And that this protestant christianity did this because it had incorporated judaic elements at the time of the Reformation.

With regard to the latter, the investigations into this that I know of are:

1. The Irvin/Seeliger analysis in the list at the bottom of: https://stolenhistory.net/threads/viruses-are-myths.1722/ but it is not clear which of those videos relate to the last paragraph of the above quote. So, I think the two main Irvin/Seeliger discussions about it are:​
and​
2. The Mathis entity, who:​
Third, coin faces and what they represent. Completely new to me. Can you unpack your claim on this?

General observation: There's an implicit belief that witch hunters wandered from place for place looking for 'witches'. The limited evidence I have seen about investigations into coin counterfeiting (from Rev George Oliver books) is that the process was more like: counterfeits were found, complaints were made and certain groups were known for having the means (ecclesiasts, basically) and so investigations were more targeted at ecclesiasts and their properties.

None of the above touch on the proposition I am most interested in. Which is the idea that:

  • the events in and around 'The Reformation' are a cover for a takeover of the institutions that govern/suppress/tax and 'direct' us.
  • these entities possibly came out of Holland/Belgium and/or now-submerged parts of the North Sea and that they are the source of words and labels that sound like:
'Dogger'​
'Doge'​
'Deus'​
'Deutch'​
'Dutch'​
'Duchess'​
'Duchy' eg 'Duchy of Cornwall'​
'Duke'​
'Jew'​
'Jude'​
'Georg'​
'Ger...'​
'Hugh'​

and the source of the sudden appearance in eastern and western Europe of 'Dutch/Deutch' rulers and academics.​

In that highly speculative model, witch hunts may be an aspect of technology suppression or a cover story for mass killings. But it's an idea I am examining rather than promoting.
 
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BStankman

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One possibility is that analogies were used by our ancestors to keep certain secrets. It also seems to be common in the bible

This certainly gives a new light to this bible verse.
Taken from the King James version. The notorious witch hunter.

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.


matthewhopkins-1.jpg
 

fabiorem

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Maybe, perhaps, you will take this as bullying, but it isn't meant that way. I don't understand your statements. Are you stating that coins were minted with the image of burned witches on them? Or do you mean that the Inquisition deliberately minted the images of women on coins so that peasants would understand that to mean 'kill women accused of witchcraft?'


No, I'm saying there is the face of a woman in old coins, or of a woman holding scales in her hands, sometimes called "liberty" and with a solar aura around her head. Burn the witch was actually burn the wick, to lighten the oil where the coins were tested. However, the association of the book with the coins might led people to believe physical women were being burned, when in fact it was the woman in the coin that was burned.

As for christianity having a pagan origin, there is plenty of evidence for that. Many of the saints were gods, and the resurrection theme was already present (like Dionysus in greek myth, Baldur and Odin in nordic myth, and so on). Also, Fomenko pointed out orgiastic themes in cathedrals, like a column with buttocks sculpted in it, and there were reports of orgies happening inside the church.

According to Fomenko, the roman prohibition of the bacchanalia is a reflex of the inquisition prohibiting orgies inside the temples. He also pointed out that there was no inquisition in the East, because there were no orgies. But the issue raised by this topic led me to think there were less counterfeiting happening in the East, or they used other methods there.
 
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Bitbybit

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Just more funny stuff to check with Igors theory :)

"....Like Friedrich Stigler, other fraudsters were later up to mischief and enriched themselves at the expense of the superstitious population. Elisabeth Aurholtin was executed in 1597/98, [174] in 1608 another man, Hans Rößner, was expelled from the pillory of the city. [175] In 1617 a trial of Georg Carl Lamprecht followed, which in fact ended up being the only Nuremberg trial that ended at the stake because the elderly news agent Franz Schmidt, for whatever reason, did not carry out the (secret) order of the previous strangulation during his last execution. The reason for execution, however, was not only due to witchcraft, but rather to the charge of counterfeiting, which was one of the most serious crimes in the busy trading city. [176]Likewise, in 1622 the witchcraft rule was condemned with the death penalty along with church robbery and arson. [177]"
Google Translate



"...In seiner „Summa Theologica“ bezeichnete er Ketzer als Falschmünzer, die mit
dem Tode bestraft werden müssen.....
Translation:
"...Fighting heresy, belief in sorcery and demons was ubiquitous, with all
its evil consequences. Time and again in the Inquisition's manuals was sorcery as one
Represented form of heresy. The Dominican Thomas provided the theoretical basis for this
of Aquin. In his "Summa Theologica" he referred to heretics as counterfeiters who with
must be punished to death. The uncertainty of belief would be the work of the devil,
especially through the temptation of fornication would the pious turn away from
Divorce unbelievers."

https://it013179.pers.ad.uni-graz.at:7090/Theo/1fa7175e599c257a3aafef75437ad52f.pdf



"...Men who were convicted of high treason were hanged, drawn and quartered but this was not deemed acceptable for women as it would have involved nudity. High Treason included such offences as counterfeiting money and "coining" (the clipping of coins for pieces of silver and gold which were melted down to produce counterfeit coins), possession of coining equipment and colouring base metal coins (to pass them off as of higher value). Oddly, men who committed these same crimes suffered just ordinary hanging....
...Until 1790, every woman convicted of counterfeiting gold or silver coin of the realm, was sentenced to be drawn on a hurdle to the place of execution and there " to be burned with fire till she was dead." (Blackstone's Commentaries, 204. Ibid, 377)
..Between 1702 and 1734, 10 women were burned at London’s Tyburn. Two of these were for the Petty Treason murder of their husbands, and eight for High Treason, comprising two for possession of coining equipment, four for counterfeiting and two for coining itself. Barbara Spencer was burned for counterfeiting on Wednesday, the 5th of July 1721 at Tyburn. Barbara was a rebellious young woman who wanted easy money and coining seemed to offer this. She was drawn to Tyburn tied to a hurdle (similar to a piece of wattle fencing) behind a horse, before being strangled at the stake prior to the fagots being lit. ..."

Burning at the stake


Thought:
Lets say death penalty for men by hanging was common. But when death penalty happened to women it was executed by fire at the square. For the superstitious population this event with a fighting and screaming woman on fire would probably be horrific to witness, and the heresay would go wild. "-Do they know she is guilty? -Yes, they put her in water, and she floated! "
However, the correct belief that she was just a coiner would eventually be known, at least in speech. But perhaps not in copied documents where the rulers probably would emphasize the heresy stuff, and downplay the coining.
 
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Alexandra

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I wonder why the great effort to hide the story of counterfeiting behind the story of witches?? Why put forth a false, macabre story of subjugating women to all sorts of tests?

I once heard a story that the crusaders have hidden their gold on a secret place.
Since then (the alleged 1500's) the gold standard was more and more replaced by a sort of "paper" money and loans.
Burned witches are not the treasure you're gonna dig for.


Since this topic I read the Wikipedia page with different eyes.
It turns out that the legends are all based on this "Malleus Maleficarum" book.
I am also suspicious about the fact that the writer's name was Heinrich Salesman in Latin.

The pictures of women are just fantasised later I guess.


There are a couple main events in swedish history that in mainstream are connected to "witchhunt". (A 9 year period, 1668-1676)
The Swedes were the first to install banknotes around 1664...
Because "they ran out of coins" ?
I wonder why the great effort to hide the story of counterfeiting behind the story of witches?? Why put forth a false, macabre story of subjugating women to all sorts of tests?

I once heard a story that the crusaders have hidden their gold on a secret place.
Since then (the alleged 1500's) the gold standard was more and more replaced by a sort of "paper" money and loans.
Burned witches are not the treasure you're gonna dig for.


Since this topic I read the Wikipedia page with different eyes.
It turns out that the legends are all based on this "Malleus Maleficarum" book.
I am also suspicious about the fact that the writer's name was Heinrich Salesman in Latin.

The pictures of women are just fantasised later I guess.


There are a couple main events in swedish history that in mainstream are connected to "witchhunt". (A 9 year period, 1668-1676)
The Swedes were the first to install banknotes around 1664...
Because "they ran out of coins" ?
Aarch something went wrong with my post
 

dreamtime

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...In seiner „Summa Theologica“ bezeichnete er Ketzer als Falschmünzer, die mit
dem Tode bestraft werden müssen.....
Translation:
"...Fighting heresy, belief in sorcery and demons was ubiquitous, with all
its evil consequences. Time and again in the Inquisition's manuals was sorcery as one
Represented form of heresy. The Dominican Thomas provided the theoretical basis for this
of Aquin. In his "Summa Theologica" he referred to heretics as counterfeiters who with
must be punished to death. The uncertainty of belief would be the work of the devil,
especially through the temptation of fornication would the pious turn away from
Divorce unbelievers."
https://it013179.pers.ad.uni-graz.at:7090/Theo/1fa7175e599c257a3aafef75437ad52f.pdf

This would be very interesting, but I looked for confirmation on this and found the following quote:

"As for heretics, they are guilty of a sin that justifies not only their expulsion from the Church by means of excommunication, but also their removal from this world by the death penalty. After all, it is a much more serious crime to counterfeit the faith, which is the life of the soul, than to counterfeit money, which is for worldly life. If, therefore, counterfeiters or other evildoers are rightfully promoted from life to death immediately by worldly princes, with how much greater right can heretics be not only expelled from church communion immediately after their conviction for heresy, but also be cheaply executed. (Summa theologica; IIa IIae q XI, a. 3)​

This is a direct quote from Aquin, and it seems he only compares witches to forgers, but doesn't equal them.

Notice the work you quote is a master thesis written by a student. These papers are usually full of errors, because they are only written to get a degree.
 

Bitbybit

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By the way, in the manuals of the inquisitors "witch" was called by the term "malefiz", which literally means "bad income". A weight too light, as well as a coin too light, is definitely malefiz. (Compare with the English word beneficence- good income; also fiscal).
This is very telling. Are this manuals to be found readable online?

According to Igor Grek, the Inquisition was a medieval analogue to Interpol, whose main task was to fight counterfeiters. Finally, for many centuries the Pope was an absolutist ruling European monarch, appointing kings and regulating the entire foreign and domestic policy of the continent. Financial control was one of the top priorities. We see this in the example of today's European Union.

Its the same with Queen of England
“Many contemporary commentators identified the debasement of the coinage as a root cause of England’s economic problems, and they also went much further linking it to widespread social disorder, disruption and popular unrest – and the corruption of English towns and local government – with coinage being deeply symbolic of the health and prosperity of the nation,” said Bishop.

Naughty Money: Clippers and Coiners in 16th-Century England
This would be very interesting, but I looked for confirmation on this and found the following quote:

"As for heretics, they are guilty of a sin that justifies not only their expulsion from the Church by means of excommunication, but also their removal from this world by the death penalty. After all, it is a much more serious crime to counterfeit the faith, which is the life of the soul, than to counterfeit money, which is for worldly life. If, therefore, counterfeiters or other evildoers are rightfully promoted from life to death immediately by worldly princes, with how much greater right can heretics be not only expelled from church communion immediately after their conviction for heresy, but also be cheaply executed. (Summa theologica; IIa IIae q XI, a. 3)​

This is a direct quote from Aquin, and it seems he only compares witches to forgers, but doesn't equal them.

Notice the work you quote is a master thesis written by a student. These papers are usually full of errors, because they are only written to get a degree.

Allright. Good.
However, this is really early on, and he still thinks death penalty is right for both counterfeiters and herecy.
And it seems his notion is that it should be seen morally preferable for a ruler to send someone to cheap execution, if the suspect are heretic.
So for a priest/ruler, this part can be taken as a comparison/equalization where the result in practice was worse for the witch. (the counterfeiter that in part also was accused of heresy)

And the thought that should be entertained is to what grade the popularized witchhunts are mixed up with the hunts for counterfeits.
It is clear we have historic executions with women burned on fire (just because hanging would involve nudity), where the charges in reality where counterfeiting, where its perhaps not that far fetched they are now statistically "witches" in modern history. (because they were burnt on fire, to burn the devil etc).
The thing is, the rulers needed mainly to get rid of counterfeiters. This was high treason and high priority. While to invest in statewide crusade just to kill off random women can be seen quite illogical.


Contemporary critic:
The Discovery of Witchcraft by Reginald Scot, 1584
 
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Will Scarlet

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Perhaps there's some confusion here between the terms 'coining' and 'counterfeiting'. In one way they are both the same because coining involves the imitation or copying of valid coins. However, counterfeiting doesn't explicitly refer to money, it could refer to an imitation of anything, such as being a true Christian. Therefore, to be accused of coining and counterfeiting doesn't make sense unless they have separate meanings.

"counterfeit (v.)
c. 1300, countrefeten, "pretend to be," from countrefet (adj.), Old French contrefait "imitated" (Modern French contrefait), past participle of contrefaire "imitate," from contre- "against" (see contra-) + faire "to make, to do" (from Latin facere "to make, do," from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put").​

From late 14c. as "assume, simulate" (a feeling, quality, etc.); also "to make a copy of, imitate without authority or right," especially with a view to deceive or defraud. Medieval Latin contrafactio meant "setting in opposition or contrast." Related: Counterfeited; counterfeiting.​

"counterfeit (adj.)

late 14c. (late 13c. in Anglo-French), countrefet, "spurious, forged, made in semblance of an original with a view to defraud," also "feigned, simulated, hypocritical," from Old French contrefait "imitated" (Modern French contrefait), past participle of contrefaire "imitate," from contre- "against" (see contra (prep., adv.)) + faire "to make, to do" (from Latin facere "to make, do," from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put").​
As a noun, "an imitation or copy designed to pass as an original," late 14c., from the adjective."​

Source: counterfeit | Origin and meaning of counterfeit by Online Etymology Dictionary

a woman holding scales in her hands, sometimes called "liberty" and with a solar aura around her head.

I think you'll find that represents justice, pretty much universally.

Burn the witch was actually burn the wick, to lighten the oil where the coins were tested. However, the association of the book with the coins might led people to believe physical women were being burned, when in fact it was the woman in the coin that was burned.

Confusing 'burn the wick' with 'burn the witch' only works in English and if the person saying it has a speech impediment. Which (not witch) "book" are you referring to? Executions were public events back then so I'd say it was very difficult to confuse a coin with a burning woman.

As for christianity having a pagan origin...

It's also a strong possibility that Christianity hijacked 'pagan' gods and turned them into Saints in order to take control of people's beliefs and redirect them. This also happened to 'pagan' (I hate that word) places of worship, the Christians either destroyed them or built churches or shrines over them. I don't see how this shows that 'paganism' and Christianity were one and the same thing... personally that is. It's like putting the cart before the horse, imo.

If you think that 'paganism' equates to orgies and nothing more, then maybe you should try thinking about it as the Old World belief system.
 

dreamtime

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@Will Scarlet For what it's worth, the german version of the quote by Aquin from which I translated says "coining" ("forger of coins").
 

Bitbybit

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Perhaps there's some confusion here between the terms 'coining' and 'counterfeiting'. In one way they are both the same because coining involves the imitation or copying of valid coins. However, counterfeiting doesn't explicitly refer to money, it could refer to an imitation of anything, such as being a true Christian. Therefore, to be accused of coining and counterfeiting doesn't make sense unless they have separate meanings.

Yes, well i am aware, so in my search i have made clear that the english translated word "counterfeiting" had the meaning of coining. Searchwords i used were for example "Falschmünzer" as you can see in my post #31 where i included a snippet from the german original just to make just this point clear. :)
(Falschmünzer and Falschmünzerei are both googletranslated to "counterfeit")


"Although many people might associate burning at the stake with witchcraft, it was much less used for that offence in Britain than in other parts of Europe - particularly France, Switzerland and the Nordic countries. In England witchcraft was a felony and thus punishable by hanging. Alice Molland is thought to have been the last person to suffer for witchcraft, at Exeter in 1684."

At least in around 1700s it seems most of the english women that burnt, burnt because of murder or coining.
(The question about the 1300-1500s are more obscure.)

From this source:
Burning at the stake
 
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fabiorem

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I think you'll find that represents justice, pretty much universally.

Yes, but these coins only go back to the 19th century, after the inquisition was over. If you look on numismatics catalogs, you will notice coins from the middle ages and the renaissance period usually displays emperors and politicians in their designs. My guess is these coins were melted, and over time it came to be associated with counterfeiting. Also, christianity might have sprung from the emperor cult (the emperor Andronikus, who, according to Fomenko, was crucified in Italy) so to not put the emperor (or a politician) in the coin might have been regarded as "heresy". In any case, the church used "heresy" as a pretext to hide the fact that the witch hunts were all about money.

See today how the public is gullible and fall for whatever made-up story by the media. The media today is what the church was in the past. So it was easy to create this narrative of dealing with the devil to create fear among the peasantry, the same way today people fear a virus.

It's also a strong possibility that Christianity hijacked 'pagan' gods and turned them into Saints in order to take control of people's beliefs and redirect them. This also happened to 'pagan' (I hate that word) places of worship, the Christians either destroyed them or built churches or shrines over them. I don't see how this shows that 'paganism' and Christianity were one and the same thing... personally that is. It's like putting the cart before the horse, imo.

We can't ignore the cults of Mithras and Cybele. Mithraism have striking similarities to christianity, and the Cybele cult gave origin to celibacy. Cybele's priests were called "galli" and "essenes", which ties up with Julius Caesar commentary that the gauls have better skill with latin than the romans themselves, and with Fomenko claiming latin, greek and hebrew were sacred languages, not for everyday use. As for the essenes, they are deemed as the precursors of christianity. So yes, it all points to a pagan origin, and since the history of the hebrews was literally copied from byzantine history, we can claim judaism appeared after christianity, not before it.

The Dionysian cult was linked to the Cybele cult (which could lead to the idea of celibacy being temporary, instead of permanent, hence the orgies in certain dates), and according to Cumont, there was a rivalry between the Mithras cult and the Cybele cult. We can just pinpoint this to the schism between East and West, with the bacchanalia prohibition by the romans being actually done by the inquisition.
 

Math & Physics

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many people might associate burning at the stake with witchcraft
Some have gone so far as to say witches were the first pole dancers.

Much of the 'coining' perspective may be the same angle used against Capone. If you can't get them on criminal charges, take their money for tax evasion/counterfeit.
So money was of a higher priority than life itself, how did they deal with pederast? Give the kid some KY, and a data boy?
The Pilgrims knew long before Fredrick Douglas coined "It is easier to rear strong children, than to repair broken men.", they had to get out of England or their children would suffer. Crown courts are only there to protect the pederast, like modern courts. Nothing like running a crime syndicate were 'you' get to define all the crimes and what's accepted as 'evidence'.

Fire was a primary means of sanitation.
Then again, who's next to extol the virtues of Simon&Shuster, when we can't even take what's being recorded as history now, serious?
 

Will Scarlet

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For what it's worth, the german version of the quote by Aquin from which I translated says "coining" ("forger of coins").

So it was his misunderstanding of the word "counterfeiting" and not yours. (y)

Yes, well i am aware, so in my search i have made clear that the english translated word "counterfeiting" had the meaning of coining.

But it doesn't and never did.

Yes, but these coins only go back to the 19th century, after the inquisition was over.

Now you're arguing against yourself - you brought up the female figure of "liberty" on coins, not me.

As for the rest of your speculation, this is the wrong thread in which to deal with it, in spite of the Administrator's and original poster's 'Like'.

This thread has gone too far for me what with orgies and now pole-dancers. The contributors are clearly determined to present the Inquisition as simply the 'coin police' rather than the means by which counterfeit Christians were exterminated.

The Spanish Inquisition (who no one expects) was specifically formed in order to weed out counterfeit Christians - mostly Jews disguised as Christians. Back then the Jews had their activities severely restricted by legislation, not just in Spain, but in most of Europe. You alone can decide if that was pure persecution or whether it was justified, but you owe it to yourself to do some research rather than just accept the modern status quo on the subject as history has been changed in recent years, just as it is being changed here and now.

If a Jew took baptism and counterfeited Christianity in outward appearance he had much more liberty to do whatever it was he wanted to do. The Spanish Inquisition was even busier after 1492 when the Jews were expelled from Spain, because many had taken baptism to avoid expulsion. At the time the Catholic Monarchs believed that all Jews had to be converted to Christianity in order that the Second Coming would take place. Therefore, the Inquisition's job was to ensure that the conversions were genuine not counterfeit.

Often, as has been shown in previous comments, the crimes of coining and counterfeiting went together - i.e. forgery of coins and counterfeiting a genuine belief in Christianity. Can it be a coincidence that the Jews were expelled from England for exactly that combination of crimes?

The persecution of 'witches' and other heretics came under the same category of being counterfeit Christians.

I expect there to be more of these allegorical interpretations of pre-1700 events as it is necessary in order to support @dreamtime's and... what is the other name... Moses' (?) new official stolenhistory narrative, whereby everything pre-1700 is swept under the mudflood. The 'reset' concept also demands that everything pre-1700 was a part of the pre-reset Old World and therefore all 'Sweetness and Light', i.e. no nasty witch hunts where hundreds of thousands of innocent people were burned alive. Also no similar atrocities perpetrated by the Kabal through their machinations to gain control of everything, everywhere and lead us to where we are now - upon the verge of what may be compared to another witch hunt of Covid deniers and vaccine refusers.

This approach removes all historical context, imo, so that no individual isolated allegorical event makes any sense in the context of other similarly interpreted events. The guilty are absolved and rather than 'Rediscovering the History of the World' much more of it is being hidden under the mud and that suits the Kabal just fine.

Apologies for any offence, but it's all just conjecture.

Exit stage left...
 
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