The real story of dog domestication

[CBRadio]

Isn't it funny how we were discussing this issue on SH - and then, wham, along comes a very poor mainstream press-release.

It's almost like the awake people (us) are real players, and the others are drones - they are operating on some pretty poor AI.

Feed the wolves that have been killing your livestock and family, and they magically turn into dogs... lol

I had the exact same thought, but couldn't find the SH thread I was thinking of!

its funny how the vast majority of dog breeds dont even look like wolves....

supposidly the dogs coloration and

You can try and tame wild bears, lions, tigers, cheetahs, alligators, snakes, and the like, but they are one bad mood day away from tearing you apart like fried chicken. Remember the two Las Vegas guys whose lifetime friendly tiger mauled them in 2003? Siegfried and Roy? Weird stuff. A selfish human-animal act for cheap entertainment purposes.
I think they bleached the tigers as well.

View attachment 5724 "What the....?"

I think its possible some genetic mutating and manipulation was going on way far back in history.
Dogs and house cats are special. Mine were part of the family. Was that genetically engineered naturally as well as in a lab?
For me, it would take a lot of engineering to turn a wild wolf into a docile lap Poodle, no matter the length of time and interbreeding.
I smell some ancient technology at play perhaps...

View attachment 5725View attachment 5726

Since there is no proof of gradual evolution from one species to another after a hundred years of trying, another proof must be offered in its stead. There was a German book published a few years back about experiments from researchers from the CIBA corporation using static electric fields that changed Salmon eggs into a primitive Salmon species that had died out 300 years ago in Europe. Ferns grown from seeds had different chromosome counts and looked completely different from the parent fern stock. Corn seeds from the static electric field grew to fullness in 3 months and had many roots and many more smaller ears of corn. There is no gradual transition from one species to another so instead an electric field and/or magnetic field changes as in a magnetic reversal or EM disturbance led to the seeds, eggs, and fetuses morphed instantaneously into a different species. There are many old maps and drawings that show hybrid creatures like a man with legs of a horse etc, some with multiple arms and legs, etc. Not all of these mutations from electro/magnetic fields are beneficial. The mutation of wolves or a wolf like creature long ago was a "dog" as soon as it was born and had been changed neurally and genetically by EM forces to allow itself to be associated with humans.

Now I'm confused. I thought you were saying above that electro/magnetic disturbance turned wolves (dogs?) aggressive, but now you seem to be saying it's the other way round. The first version, that wolves (and presumably other predators) were originally associating safely with humans ties in with the Garden of Eden type stories.

 

[HollyHoly]

I remember reading about this a long time ago...

A Soviet scientist created the only tame foxes in the world



In the 1950s a Soviet geneticist began an experiment in guided evolution. He wanted to show how domestication works.

Dmitry K. Belyaev attempted to create a tame fox population.

Through the work of a breeding programme at the Institute of Cytology and Genetics at Novosibirsk, in Russia, he sought to trace the evolutionary pathway of domesticated animals. His test subjects were silver-black foxes, a melanistic version of the red fox that had been bred in farms for the colour of their fur.

Belyaev died in 1985, but the project is still ongoing. It is now overseen by Lyudmila Trut, now in her 80s, who started out as Belyaev's intern.

The Russian fox farm was the first of its kind.

t was a risky area of research.
Belyaev's experiment aimed to replay the process of domestication to see how evolutionary changes came about.
They selected the animals based on how they responded when their cage was opened. About 10% of the foxes displayed a weak "wild-response", meaning they were docile around humans.

"The main task at this stage of selection was eliminating defensive reactions to humans," Trut wrote in 1999. Animals that were friendlier and tolerant to human touch, even to a small degree, were picked out. Those that hid in the corner or made aggressive vocalisations were left in the farm.

Of those friendly foxes, 100 vixens and 30 males were chosen as the first generations of parents.

When the cubs were born, the researchers hand-fed them. They also attempted to touch or pet the foxes when they were two to two-and-a-half months old, for strictly measured periods at a time.

The aggressive and fear avoidance responses were eliminated from the experimental population

If the cubs continued to show aggressive or evasive responses, even after significant human contact, they were discarded from the population – meaning they were made into fur coats. In each selection, less than 10% of tame individuals were used as parents of the next generation.

"As a result of such rigorous selection, the offspring exhibiting the aggressive and fear avoidance responses were eliminated from the experimental population in just two to three generations of selection," Trut wrote in a study published in 2009.

The foxes at the fox-farm were never trained to become tame. They lived in cages and had minimal contact with humans. Belyaev's aim was to create a genetically-distinct population, so he simply selected for particular behavioural traits.

"Belyaev had one main goal at the beginning of experiment: to reproduce the process of historical domestication at the experiment, during a short time," says Trut. "This goal didn't change. But during the experiment the understanding of evolutionary process changed."

By the fourth generation, the scientists started to see dramatic changes.

The cubs were beginning to behave more like dogs. They wagged their tails and "eagerly" sought contact with humans. They whined, whimpered and licked researchers just like puppies would.

The foxes could 'read' human cues and respond correctly to gestures or glances

The process was surprisingly quick. "By intense selective breeding, we have compressed into a few decades an ancient process that originally unfolded over thousands of years," wrote Trut in 1999.

These foxes were called the "elite of domestication", and as the generations passed the proportion of these elite cubs grew. By 2005-2006, almost all the foxes were playful, friendly and behaving like domestic dogs. The foxes could "read" human cues and respond correctly to gestures or glances. The vocalisations they made were different to wild foxes.

"The proudest moment for us was creating a unique population of genetically tame foxes, the only the one in the world," says Trut.

It was not just the foxes' personalities that were changing

The key point is that the experiment offers a hint as to the stages by which domestication takes place.

"Before, we knew that dogs and wolves were descended from the same ancestor, but we didn't know how," says Hare. "What came first? The fox experiment showed that just by selecting for friendliness, all these other changes, including an increase in social skills, happened by accident."

In fact, Belyaev and Trut soon found that it was not just the foxes' personalities that were changing. Their bodies were too.

"The main surprise was that, together with changing of behaviour, many new morphological traits in tame foxes start to appear from the first steps of selection," said Trut.

The domesticated foxes had floppier, drooping ears, which are found in other domestic animals such as dogs, cats, pigs, horses and goats. Curlier tails – also found in dogs and pigs – were also recorded.

All these changes were brought on by selecting for one trait: tameability

What's more, "in only a few generations, the friendly foxes were showing changes in coat colour," says Hare.

The process seems to be ongoing. "At the more advanced steps of selection, changes in the parameters of the skeletal system began to arise," Trut wrote. "They included shortened legs, tail, snout, upper jaw, and widened skull."

The foxes started looking more delicate and, put simply, "cute".

Their reproductive habits also changed. The domesticated foxes became sexually mature about a month earlier than non-domesticated foxes. Their mating season was longer and they could breed out of season. On average, their litters had one more cub.

All these changes were brought on by selecting for one trait: tameability. This gives us a big clue to how domestication works.

The physical traits Belyaev and Trut found, like the floppy ears, were those you would expect in a juvenile. But the domestic foxes carried them through into adulthood, suggesting the selection process had slowed down aspects of their development.

This might have something to do with chemicals in their bodies.

Selection has even affected the neurochemistry of our foxes' brains

Belyaev reasoned that selecting for tameability changed the mix of hormones and neurotransmitters the foxes' bodies made. He believed behavioural responses were "regulated by a fine balance between neurotransmitters and hormones at the level of the whole organism".

For example, the drooping ears of the domesticated foxes might be a result of slowing down the adrenal glands. This could arrest the cells before the ear has time to stand to attention.

"Selection has even affected the neurochemistry of our foxes' brains," wrote Trut. One example she described was a drop in the "hormone-producing activity of the foxes' adrenal glands."

Domestic foxes also had higher levels of serotonin than farm-bred foxes. That is intriguing, because serotonin is "thought to be the leading mediator inhibiting animals' aggressive behaviour." Serotonin, like other neurotransmitters, is critically involved in shaping an animal's development from its earliest stages.

The project continues to this day. As of August 2016, there are 270 tame vixens and 70 tame males on the farm. However, it has run into financial problems.

"The current situation is not catastrophic, but not stable at the same time," writes Kharlamova. "The main reason of instability is of course the expense of this experiment."In the 1990s, the institute supported itself by selling fox pelts. At the end of the 1990s, they started to sell the foxes as house pets. At present, a Florida-based company called the Lester Kalmanson Agency Inc imports foxes for those who want to keep them as pets. Each fox costs $8,900, because of the delivery costs.
With the foxes now tame, the researchers are trying to identify the genes that change under selection for tameness. "The main current goals are focused on molecular-genetics mechanisms of domestic behaviour," says Trut.

This is a massively long article, I only selected the parts related to the fox experiment but it's all well worth a read.

Thanks so much for the pdf link!

the fox experiment is interesting but I don't think it applies to the scenario for dog domestication as proposed by these scientists the truth is foxes were domesticated and bred for their fur prior to the experiment so are mink and other fur bearing animals in this case they were culled for fur quality so the Russians chose to change the focus and breed for docility. Since every time a choice is made it changes which traits are expressed and and since certain traits come in bundles expression is going to change a bunch of other things in an unforseen way. Like the expression of infantile traits into adulthood,white markings floppy ears and so on.
Some animals are simply more tolerant of change and stress and human contact than others so I'll tell you about Opossums

​

I ve kept and raised a ton of these they make great pets, no really just the best, no modification of any kind required to make them that way they just are, they are quiet they sleep all day day they need to roam around for four to six hours at night then back to bed ,they poop and pee once a day give them a litter box lined with paper they will use it every time clean up easy peesy, Also it doesn't stink to high heaven like cat or dog poop. they have a defensive response when startled of showing their teeth and hissing which can be unsettling(cause its supposed to be be) but they are very loath to bite or attack and aren't aggressive. They don't need to be spayed or neutered to change their behavior to make them more docile they are very docile and easy going. All they want is a nice den spot and delicious food and alls right in their world. They get along with every kind of animal and they are very trusting of their caregivers. If you are the care giver they trust you in all things if you are not then they don't like you so much. That doesn't mean they will attack or bite it just means they will try to avoid you and you wont get any loving attention from them. They have a number of endearing behaviors that those of who keep them just love they carry bedding for their nests with their tails, if they love you they throw adorable kisses at you called kissy smacks just like blowing a kiss, they do a lick rub they lick you then rub their faces on you ,this can get to be to much affection LOL. They will ride around on your shoulder sleep next to you or on you they anoint themselves with all kinds of scents notably and commonly they will lick rub your shoes or favorite fireplace brick. When happy they do a little dance called the possum twist its a step, a tail drag and twist of a hind foot.
Etc. my point being possums are wild animals but they need no domestication to be excellent pets they come straight outa the wild that way.

So is it possible that dogs did as well? and all the familiar animals we have. no magic change of species required just a happy go lucky kind of animal not overly high strung or demanding or aggressive or predatory or avoidant. Its that thing I was talking about several posts back referring to that trait that tigers and wolves and loins and bears all have where they're just one minor trigger away from from eating you at any given moment. I think some animals are just like the possum they just are more amenable to humans than others.
Possums and their people face book group

 

[Oracle]

I remember reading about this a long time ago...

A Soviet scientist created the only tame foxes in the world



In the 1950s a Soviet geneticist began an experiment in guided evolution. He wanted to show how domestication works.

Dmitry K. Belyaev attempted to create a tame fox population.

Through the work of a breeding programme at the Institute of Cytology and Genetics at Novosibirsk, in Russia, he sought to trace the evolutionary pathway of domesticated animals. His test subjects were silver-black foxes, a melanistic version of the red fox that had been bred in farms for the colour of their fur.

Belyaev died in 1985, but the project is still ongoing. It is now overseen by Lyudmila Trut, now in her 80s, who started out as Belyaev's intern.

The Russian fox farm was the first of its kind.

t was a risky area of research.
Belyaev's experiment aimed to replay the process of domestication to see how evolutionary changes came about.
They selected the animals based on how they responded when their cage was opened. About 10% of the foxes displayed a weak "wild-response", meaning they were docile around humans.

"The main task at this stage of selection was eliminating defensive reactions to humans," Trut wrote in 1999. Animals that were friendlier and tolerant to human touch, even to a small degree, were picked out. Those that hid in the corner or made aggressive vocalisations were left in the farm.

Of those friendly foxes, 100 vixens and 30 males were chosen as the first generations of parents.

When the cubs were born, the researchers hand-fed them. They also attempted to touch or pet the foxes when they were two to two-and-a-half months old, for strictly measured periods at a time.

The aggressive and fear avoidance responses were eliminated from the experimental population

If the cubs continued to show aggressive or evasive responses, even after significant human contact, they were discarded from the population – meaning they were made into fur coats. In each selection, less than 10% of tame individuals were used as parents of the next generation.

"As a result of such rigorous selection, the offspring exhibiting the aggressive and fear avoidance responses were eliminated from the experimental population in just two to three generations of selection," Trut wrote in a study published in 2009.

The foxes at the fox-farm were never trained to become tame. They lived in cages and had minimal contact with humans. Belyaev's aim was to create a genetically-distinct population, so he simply selected for particular behavioural traits.

"Belyaev had one main goal at the beginning of experiment: to reproduce the process of historical domestication at the experiment, during a short time," says Trut. "This goal didn't change. But during the experiment the understanding of evolutionary process changed."

By the fourth generation, the scientists started to see dramatic changes.

The cubs were beginning to behave more like dogs. They wagged their tails and "eagerly" sought contact with humans. They whined, whimpered and licked researchers just like puppies would.

The foxes could 'read' human cues and respond correctly to gestures or glances

The process was surprisingly quick. "By intense selective breeding, we have compressed into a few decades an ancient process that originally unfolded over thousands of years," wrote Trut in 1999.

These foxes were called the "elite of domestication", and as the generations passed the proportion of these elite cubs grew. By 2005-2006, almost all the foxes were playful, friendly and behaving like domestic dogs. The foxes could "read" human cues and respond correctly to gestures or glances. The vocalisations they made were different to wild foxes.

"The proudest moment for us was creating a unique population of genetically tame foxes, the only the one in the world," says Trut.

It was not just the foxes' personalities that were changing

The key point is that the experiment offers a hint as to the stages by which domestication takes place.

"Before, we knew that dogs and wolves were descended from the same ancestor, but we didn't know how," says Hare. "What came first? The fox experiment showed that just by selecting for friendliness, all these other changes, including an increase in social skills, happened by accident."

In fact, Belyaev and Trut soon found that it was not just the foxes' personalities that were changing. Their bodies were too.

"The main surprise was that, together with changing of behaviour, many new morphological traits in tame foxes start to appear from the first steps of selection," said Trut.

The domesticated foxes had floppier, drooping ears, which are found in other domestic animals such as dogs, cats, pigs, horses and goats. Curlier tails – also found in dogs and pigs – were also recorded.

All these changes were brought on by selecting for one trait: tameability

What's more, "in only a few generations, the friendly foxes were showing changes in coat colour," says Hare.

The process seems to be ongoing. "At the more advanced steps of selection, changes in the parameters of the skeletal system began to arise," Trut wrote. "They included shortened legs, tail, snout, upper jaw, and widened skull."

The foxes started looking more delicate and, put simply, "cute".

Their reproductive habits also changed. The domesticated foxes became sexually mature about a month earlier than non-domesticated foxes. Their mating season was longer and they could breed out of season. On average, their litters had one more cub.

All these changes were brought on by selecting for one trait: tameability. This gives us a big clue to how domestication works.

The physical traits Belyaev and Trut found, like the floppy ears, were those you would expect in a juvenile. But the domestic foxes carried them through into adulthood, suggesting the selection process had slowed down aspects of their development.

This might have something to do with chemicals in their bodies.

Selection has even affected the neurochemistry of our foxes' brains

Belyaev reasoned that selecting for tameability changed the mix of hormones and neurotransmitters the foxes' bodies made. He believed behavioural responses were "regulated by a fine balance between neurotransmitters and hormones at the level of the whole organism".

For example, the drooping ears of the domesticated foxes might be a result of slowing down the adrenal glands. This could arrest the cells before the ear has time to stand to attention.

"Selection has even affected the neurochemistry of our foxes' brains," wrote Trut. One example she described was a drop in the "hormone-producing activity of the foxes' adrenal glands."

Domestic foxes also had higher levels of serotonin than farm-bred foxes. That is intriguing, because serotonin is "thought to be the leading mediator inhibiting animals' aggressive behaviour." Serotonin, like other neurotransmitters, is critically involved in shaping an animal's development from its earliest stages.

The project continues to this day. As of August 2016, there are 270 tame vixens and 70 tame males on the farm. However, it has run into financial problems.

"The current situation is not catastrophic, but not stable at the same time," writes Kharlamova. "The main reason of instability is of course the expense of this experiment."In the 1990s, the institute supported itself by selling fox pelts. At the end of the 1990s, they started to sell the foxes as house pets. At present, a Florida-based company called the Lester Kalmanson Agency Inc imports foxes for those who want to keep them as pets. Each fox costs $8,900, because of the delivery costs.
With the foxes now tame, the researchers are trying to identify the genes that change under selection for tameness. "The main current goals are focused on molecular-genetics mechanisms of domestic behaviour," says Trut.

This is a massively long article, I only selected the parts related to the fox experiment but it's all well worth a read.

Thanks so much for the pdf link!

the fox experiment is interesting but I don't think it applies to the scenario for dog domestication as proposed by these scientists the truth is foxes were domesticated and bred for their fur prior to the experiment so are mink and other fur bearing animals in this case they were culled for fur quality so the Russians chose to change the focus and breed for docility. Since every time a choice is made it changes which traits are expressed and and since certain traits come in bundles expression is going to change a bunch of other things in an unforseen way. Like the expression of infantile traits into adulthood,white markings floppy ears and so on.
Some animals are simply more tolerant of change and stress and human contact than others so I'll tell you about Opossums

View attachment 5728

​

I ve kept and raised a ton of these they make great pets, no really just the best, no modification of any kind required to make them that way they just are, they are quiet they sleep all day day they need to roam around for four to six hours at night then back to bed ,they poop and pee once a day give them a litter box lined with paper they will use it every time clean up easy peesy, Also it doesn't stink to high heaven like cat or dog poop. they have a defensive response when startled of showing their teeth and hissing which can be unsettling(cause its supposed to be be) but they are very loath to bite or attack and aren't aggressive. They don't need to be spayed or neutered to change their behavior to make them more docile they are very docile and easy going. All they want is a nice den spot and delicious food and alls right in their world. They get along with every kind of animal and they are very trusting of their caregivers. If you are the care giver they trust you in all things if you are not then they don't like you so much. That doesn't mean they will attack or bite it just means they will try to avoid you and you wont get any loving attention from them. They have a number of endearing behaviors that those of who keep them just love they carry bedding for their nests with their tails, if they love you they throw adorable kisses at you called kissy smacks just like blowing a kiss, they do a lick rub they lick you then rub their faces on you ,this can get to be to much affection LOL. They will ride around on your shoulder sleep next to you or on you they anoint themselves with all kinds of scents notably and commonly they will lick rub your shoes or favorite fireplace brick. When happy they do a little dance called the possum twist its a step, a tail drag and twist of a hind foot.
Etc. my point being possums are wild animals but they need no domestication to be excellent pets they come straight outa the wild that way.

So is it possible that dogs did as well? and all the familiar animals we have. no magic change of species required just a happy go lucky kind of animal not overly high strung or demanding or aggressive or predatory or avoidant. Its that thing I was talking about several posts back referring to that trait that tigers and wolves and loins and bears all have where they're just one minor trigger away from from eating you at any given moment. I think some animals are just like the possum they just are more amenable to humans than others.
Possums and their people face book group

Yeah I had a few issues with the article myself. For instance the floppy ear bit. These animals being always in a cage would account for many of the traits they stated they bred in. Relying on being fed and watered by people and always being in a safe environment (no threats) would mean they didn't require the acute hearing they had previously so that could well change the ear shape for example. It could also account for the jaw shape change and colouring.
I posted it mainly because the thread reminded me of it and thought it relevant.
As for Possums, that's very different behaviour to the Australian variety !

 

[HollyHoly]

I remember reading about this a long time ago...

A Soviet scientist created the only tame foxes in the world



In the 1950s a Soviet geneticist began an experiment in guided evolution. He wanted to show how domestication works.

Dmitry K. Belyaev attempted to create a tame fox population.

Through the work of a breeding programme at the Institute of Cytology and Genetics at Novosibirsk, in Russia, he sought to trace the evolutionary pathway of domesticated animals. His test subjects were silver-black foxes, a melanistic version of the red fox that had been bred in farms for the colour of their fur.

Belyaev died in 1985, but the project is still ongoing. It is now overseen by Lyudmila Trut, now in her 80s, who started out as Belyaev's intern.

The Russian fox farm was the first of its kind.

t was a risky area of research.
Belyaev's experiment aimed to replay the process of domestication to see how evolutionary changes came about.
They selected the animals based on how they responded when their cage was opened. About 10% of the foxes displayed a weak "wild-response", meaning they were docile around humans.

"The main task at this stage of selection was eliminating defensive reactions to humans," Trut wrote in 1999. Animals that were friendlier and tolerant to human touch, even to a small degree, were picked out. Those that hid in the corner or made aggressive vocalisations were left in the farm.

Of those friendly foxes, 100 vixens and 30 males were chosen as the first generations of parents.

When the cubs were born, the researchers hand-fed them. They also attempted to touch or pet the foxes when they were two to two-and-a-half months old, for strictly measured periods at a time.

The aggressive and fear avoidance responses were eliminated from the experimental population

If the cubs continued to show aggressive or evasive responses, even after significant human contact, they were discarded from the population – meaning they were made into fur coats. In each selection, less than 10% of tame individuals were used as parents of the next generation.

"As a result of such rigorous selection, the offspring exhibiting the aggressive and fear avoidance responses were eliminated from the experimental population in just two to three generations of selection," Trut wrote in a study published in 2009.

The foxes at the fox-farm were never trained to become tame. They lived in cages and had minimal contact with humans. Belyaev's aim was to create a genetically-distinct population, so he simply selected for particular behavioural traits.

"Belyaev had one main goal at the beginning of experiment: to reproduce the process of historical domestication at the experiment, during a short time," says Trut. "This goal didn't change. But during the experiment the understanding of evolutionary process changed."

By the fourth generation, the scientists started to see dramatic changes.

The cubs were beginning to behave more like dogs. They wagged their tails and "eagerly" sought contact with humans. They whined, whimpered and licked researchers just like puppies would.

The foxes could 'read' human cues and respond correctly to gestures or glances

The process was surprisingly quick. "By intense selective breeding, we have compressed into a few decades an ancient process that originally unfolded over thousands of years," wrote Trut in 1999.

These foxes were called the "elite of domestication", and as the generations passed the proportion of these elite cubs grew. By 2005-2006, almost all the foxes were playful, friendly and behaving like domestic dogs. The foxes could "read" human cues and respond correctly to gestures or glances. The vocalisations they made were different to wild foxes.

"The proudest moment for us was creating a unique population of genetically tame foxes, the only the one in the world," says Trut.

It was not just the foxes' personalities that were changing

The key point is that the experiment offers a hint as to the stages by which domestication takes place.

"Before, we knew that dogs and wolves were descended from the same ancestor, but we didn't know how," says Hare. "What came first? The fox experiment showed that just by selecting for friendliness, all these other changes, including an increase in social skills, happened by accident."

In fact, Belyaev and Trut soon found that it was not just the foxes' personalities that were changing. Their bodies were too.

"The main surprise was that, together with changing of behaviour, many new morphological traits in tame foxes start to appear from the first steps of selection," said Trut.

The domesticated foxes had floppier, drooping ears, which are found in other domestic animals such as dogs, cats, pigs, horses and goats. Curlier tails – also found in dogs and pigs – were also recorded.

All these changes were brought on by selecting for one trait: tameability

What's more, "in only a few generations, the friendly foxes were showing changes in coat colour," says Hare.

The process seems to be ongoing. "At the more advanced steps of selection, changes in the parameters of the skeletal system began to arise," Trut wrote. "They included shortened legs, tail, snout, upper jaw, and widened skull."

The foxes started looking more delicate and, put simply, "cute".

Their reproductive habits also changed. The domesticated foxes became sexually mature about a month earlier than non-domesticated foxes. Their mating season was longer and they could breed out of season. On average, their litters had one more cub.

All these changes were brought on by selecting for one trait: tameability. This gives us a big clue to how domestication works.

The physical traits Belyaev and Trut found, like the floppy ears, were those you would expect in a juvenile. But the domestic foxes carried them through into adulthood, suggesting the selection process had slowed down aspects of their development.

This might have something to do with chemicals in their bodies.

Selection has even affected the neurochemistry of our foxes' brains

Belyaev reasoned that selecting for tameability changed the mix of hormones and neurotransmitters the foxes' bodies made. He believed behavioural responses were "regulated by a fine balance between neurotransmitters and hormones at the level of the whole organism".

For example, the drooping ears of the domesticated foxes might be a result of slowing down the adrenal glands. This could arrest the cells before the ear has time to stand to attention.

"Selection has even affected the neurochemistry of our foxes' brains," wrote Trut. One example she described was a drop in the "hormone-producing activity of the foxes' adrenal glands."

Domestic foxes also had higher levels of serotonin than farm-bred foxes. That is intriguing, because serotonin is "thought to be the leading mediator inhibiting animals' aggressive behaviour." Serotonin, like other neurotransmitters, is critically involved in shaping an animal's development from its earliest stages.

The project continues to this day. As of August 2016, there are 270 tame vixens and 70 tame males on the farm. However, it has run into financial problems.

"The current situation is not catastrophic, but not stable at the same time," writes Kharlamova. "The main reason of instability is of course the expense of this experiment."In the 1990s, the institute supported itself by selling fox pelts. At the end of the 1990s, they started to sell the foxes as house pets. At present, a Florida-based company called the Lester Kalmanson Agency Inc imports foxes for those who want to keep them as pets. Each fox costs $8,900, because of the delivery costs.
With the foxes now tame, the researchers are trying to identify the genes that change under selection for tameness. "The main current goals are focused on molecular-genetics mechanisms of domestic behaviour," says Trut.

This is a massively long article, I only selected the parts related to the fox experiment but it's all well worth a read.

Thanks so much for the pdf link!

the fox experiment is interesting but I don't think it applies to the scenario for dog domestication as proposed by these scientists the truth is foxes were domesticated and bred for their fur prior to the experiment so are mink and other fur bearing animals in this case they were culled for fur quality so the Russians chose to change the focus and breed for docility. Since every time a choice is made it changes which traits are expressed and and since certain traits come in bundles expression is going to change a bunch of other things in an unforseen way. Like the expression of infantile traits into adulthood,white markings floppy ears and so on.
Some animals are simply more tolerant of change and stress and human contact than others so I'll tell you about Opossums

View attachment 5728

​

I ve kept and raised a ton of these they make great pets, no really just the best, no modification of any kind required to make them that way they just are, they are quiet they sleep all day day they need to roam around for four to six hours at night then back to bed ,they poop and pee once a day give them a litter box lined with paper they will use it every time clean up easy peesy, Also it doesn't stink to high heaven like cat or dog poop. they have a defensive response when startled of showing their teeth and hissing which can be unsettling(cause its supposed to be be) but they are very loath to bite or attack and aren't aggressive. They don't need to be spayed or neutered to change their behavior to make them more docile they are very docile and easy going. All they want is a nice den spot and delicious food and alls right in their world. They get along with every kind of animal and they are very trusting of their caregivers. If you are the care giver they trust you in all things if you are not then they don't like you so much. That doesn't mean they will attack or bite it just means they will try to avoid you and you wont get any loving attention from them. They have a number of endearing behaviors that those of who keep them just love they carry bedding for their nests with their tails, if they love you they throw adorable kisses at you called kissy smacks just like blowing a kiss, they do a lick rub they lick you then rub their faces on you ,this can get to be to much affection LOL. They will ride around on your shoulder sleep next to you or on you they anoint themselves with all kinds of scents notably and commonly they will lick rub your shoes or favorite fireplace brick. When happy they do a little dance called the possum twist its a step, a tail drag and twist of a hind foot.
Etc. my point being possums are wild animals but they need no domestication to be excellent pets they come straight outa the wild that way.

So is it possible that dogs did as well? and all the familiar animals we have. no magic change of species required just a happy go lucky kind of animal not overly high strung or demanding or aggressive or predatory or avoidant. Its that thing I was talking about several posts back referring to that trait that tigers and wolves and loins and bears all have where they're just one minor trigger away from from eating you at any given moment. I think some animals are just like the possum they just are more amenable to humans than others.
Possums and their people face book group

Yeah I had a few issues with the article myself. For instance the floppy ear bit. These animals being always in a cage would account for many of the traits they stated they bred in. Relying on being fed and watered by people and always being in a safe environment (no threats) would mean they didn't require the acute hearing they had previously so that could well change the ear shape for example. It could also account for the jaw shape change and colouring.
I posted it mainly because the thread reminded me of it and thought it relevant.
As for Possums, that's very different behaviour to the Australian variety !

That's true about the Australian possums see what I mean

 

[Magnetic]

Isn't it funny how we were discussing this issue on SH - and then, wham, along comes a very poor mainstream press-release.

It's almost like the awake people (us) are real players, and the others are drones - they are operating on some pretty poor AI.

Feed the wolves that have been killing your livestock and family, and they magically turn into dogs... lol

I had the exact same thought, but couldn't find the SH thread I was thinking of!

its funny how the vast majority of dog breeds dont even look like wolves....

supposidly the dogs coloration and

You can try and tame wild bears, lions, tigers, cheetahs, alligators, snakes, and the like, but they are one bad mood day away from tearing you apart like fried chicken. Remember the two Las Vegas guys whose lifetime friendly tiger mauled them in 2003? Siegfried and Roy? Weird stuff. A selfish human-animal act for cheap entertainment purposes.
I think they bleached the tigers as well.

View attachment 5724 "What the....?"

I think its possible some genetic mutating and manipulation was going on way far back in history.
Dogs and house cats are special. Mine were part of the family. Was that genetically engineered naturally as well as in a lab?
For me, it would take a lot of engineering to turn a wild wolf into a docile lap Poodle, no matter the length of time and interbreeding.
I smell some ancient technology at play perhaps...

View attachment 5725View attachment 5726

Since there is no proof of gradual evolution from one species to another after a hundred years of trying, another proof must be offered in its stead. There was a German book published a few years back about experiments from researchers from the CIBA corporation using static electric fields that changed Salmon eggs into a primitive Salmon species that had died out 300 years ago in Europe. Ferns grown orth magnfrom seeds had different chromosome counts and looked completely different from the parent fern stock. Corn seeds from the static electric field grew to fullness in 3 months and had many roots and many more smaller ears of corn. There is no gradual transition from one species to another so instead an electric field and/or magnetic field changes as in a magnetic reversal or EM disturbance led to the seeds, eggs, and fetuses morphed instantaneously into a different species. There are many old maps and drawings that show hybrid creatures like a man with legs of a horse etc, some with multiple arms and legs, etc. Not all of these mutations from electro/magnetic fields are beneficial. The mutation of wolves or a wolf like creature long ago was a "dog" as soon as it was born and had been changed neurally and genetically by EM forces to allow itself to be associated with humans.

Now I'm confused. I thought you were saying above that electro/magnetic disturbance turned wolves (dogs?) aggressive, but now you seem to be saying it's the other way round. The first version, that wolves (and presumably other predators) were originally associating safely with humans ties in with the Garden of Eden type stories.

The field orientation has different effects.

 

[6079SmithW]

Genesis 9:2,

"And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered."
Tame was the original state. Wild is actually the unnatural state.

According to the Bible anyway

 

[HollyHoly]

Genesis 9:2,

"And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered."
Tame was the original state. Wild is actually the unnatural state.

According to the Bible anyway

I never looked at that way but that makes the most sense

 

[Magnetic]

I found the book on high voltage static electric fields Der Urzeit-Code Der Urzeit-Code (urzeit-code.com)
"Revolutionary discovery

At the end of the 1980s, the Swiss researchers Dr. Guido Ebner and Heinz Schürch made a sensational discovery at the pharmaceutical giant Ciba (Novartis): In laboratory experiments, they exposed grain and fish eggs to an "electrostatic field" – a simple high-voltage field in which no electricity flows.

Result: Growth and yield could be massively increased in this so-called "e-field" – even without fertilizers or pesticides!

At the same time, "prehistoric forms" that have long since become extinct grew quite surprisingly: a million-year-old fern that no botanist could determine. Urmais with up to twelve pistons per stalk, as it once spspsin South America. And extinct giant trout with laughing hooks.

Pharmaceutical giant Ciba patented the process and immediately closed the

research. Why? Because "original grain" from the electrofield grows faster and more productive, is more resistant to pests and requires fewer pesticides than modern seed strains. The discovery quickly fell into oblivion – without the world's scientific community taking notice of it. That's about to change... "
We are living in a very weak magnetic field and dialectric field compared to the past ages. The change in energy density, polarity, and fluctuations may be all that is needed to create healthier plants and animals and new species.

 

[HollyHoly]

I found the book on high voltage static electric fields Der Urzeit-Code Der Urzeit-Code (urzeit-code.com)
"Revolutionary discovery

At the end of the 1980s, the Swiss researchers Dr. Guido Ebner and Heinz Schürch made a sensational discovery at the pharmaceutical giant Ciba (Novartis): In laboratory experiments, they exposed grain and fish eggs to an "electrostatic field" – a simple high-voltage field in which no electricity flows.

Result: Growth and yield could be massively increased in this so-called "e-field" – even without fertilizers or pesticides!

At the same time, "prehistoric forms" that have long since become extinct grew quite surprisingly: a million-year-old fern that no botanist could determine. Urmais with up to twelve pistons per stalk, as it once spspsin South America. And extinct giant trout with laughing hooks.

Pharmaceutical giant Ciba patented the process and immediately closed the

research. Why? Because "original grain" from the electrofield grows faster and more productive, is more resistant to pests and requires fewer pesticides than modern seed strains. The discovery quickly fell into oblivion – without the world's scientific community taking notice of it. That's about to change... "
We are living in a very weak magnetic field and dialectric field compared to the past ages. The change in energy density, polarity, and fluctuations may be all that is needed to create healthier plants and animals and new species.

when the Kingdom is lowered from Heaven, sounds similar to what you're saying new Heaven and a new Earth wolf will lie down with a kid etc. it also mentions extraordinary crop yields. I don't know how this kind of technology that you refer to could be applied planet wide that would involve a kind of God tech. Im a christian so I m expecting it, but seriously it's gonna take God to change the fundamental existence paradigm. Funny how all these supposed discoveries end up smothered and obliviated, Science is something I have zero respect for anymore its all just a big academic one hand clapping wankfest at this point. For example the idiotic articles that started this whole thread, fairy tales and just so stories is all it is. We blithely say how we could create this and that if only such and such, but it either makes monsters or blows up in our faces. We're gonna wait a long time if we're waiting for science to come up a solution to shooting ourselves in the foot every time someone hands us a gun. Science doesn't know how to ask the right question, you cant get the right answer asking the wrong question. Like how were dogs domesticated? clearly the wrong question also if it has the word evolve in it , I want to know what a giant trout with laughing hooks is though

 

[Oracle]

I found the book on high voltage static electric fields Der Urzeit-Code Der Urzeit-Code (urzeit-code.com)
"Revolutionary discovery

At the end of the 1980s, the Swiss researchers Dr. Guido Ebner and Heinz Schürch made a sensational discovery at the pharmaceutical giant Ciba (Novartis): In laboratory experiments, they exposed grain and fish eggs to an "electrostatic field" – a simple high-voltage field in which no electricity flows.

Result: Growth and yield could be massively increased in this so-called "e-field" – even without fertilizers or pesticides!

At the same time, "prehistoric forms" that have long since become extinct grew quite surprisingly: a million-year-old fern that no botanist could determine. Urmais with up to twelve pistons per stalk, as it once spspsin South America. And extinct giant trout with laughing hooks.

Pharmaceutical giant Ciba patented the process and immediately closed the

research. Why? Because "original grain" from the electrofield grows faster and more productive, is more resistant to pests and requires fewer pesticides than modern seed strains. The discovery quickly fell into oblivion – without the world's scientific community taking notice of it. That's about to change... "
We are living in a very weak magnetic field and dialectric field compared to the past ages. The change in energy density, polarity, and fluctuations may be all that is needed to create healthier plants and animals and new species.

when the Kingdom is lowered from Heaven, sounds similar to what you're saying new Heaven and a new Earth wolf will lie down with a kid etc. it also mentions extraordinary crop yields. I don't know how this kind of technology that you refer to could be applied planet wide that would involve a kind of God tech. Im a christian so I m expecting it, but seriously it's gonna take God to change the fundamental existence paradigm. Funny how all these supposed discoveries end up smothered and obliviated, Science is something I have zero respect for anymore its all just a big academic one hand clapping wankfest at this point. For example the idiotic articles that started this whole thread, fairy tales and just so stories is all it is. We blithely say how we could create this and that if only such and such, but it either makes monsters or blows up in our faces. We're gonna wait a long time if we're waiting for science to come up a solution to shooting ourselves in the foot every time someone hands us a gun. Science doesn't know how to ask the right question, you cant get the right answer asking the wrong question. Like how were dogs domesticated? clearly the wrong question also if it has the word evolve in it , I want to know what a giant trout with laughing hooks is though

Science fails because it doesn't include the unseen energy all around and in us. They're like looking at a forest on a flatscreen making observations, instead of standing in the midst of it and "seeing" it with their eyes closed.
I don't know about the laughing bit but as a keen fisher of fish I can tell you that adult trout have a "hook" growing on their upper lip.

I found the book on high voltage static electric fields Der Urzeit-Code Der Urzeit-Code (urzeit-code.com)

You are a treasure trove of juicy reading!




Edited to add "making observations".

 

[CBRadio]

I found the book on high voltage static electric fields Der Urzeit-Code Der Urzeit-Code (urzeit-code.com)
"Revolutionary discovery

At the end of the 1980s, the Swiss researchers Dr. Guido Ebner and Heinz Schürch made a sensational discovery at the pharmaceutical giant Ciba (Novartis): In laboratory experiments, they exposed grain and fish eggs to an "electrostatic field" – a simple high-voltage field in which no electricity flows.

Result: Growth and yield could be massively increased in this so-called "e-field" – even without fertilizers or pesticides!

At the same time, "prehistoric forms" that have long since become extinct grew quite surprisingly: a million-year-old fern that no botanist could determine. Urmais with up to twelve pistons per stalk, as it once spspsin South America. And extinct giant trout with laughing hooks.

Pharmaceutical giant Ciba patented the process and immediately closed the

research. Why? Because "original grain" from the electrofield grows faster and more productive, is more resistant to pests and requires fewer pesticides than modern seed strains. The discovery quickly fell into oblivion – without the world's scientific community taking notice of it. That's about to change... "
We are living in a very weak magnetic field and dialectric field compared to the past ages. The change in energy density, polarity, and fluctuations may be all that is needed to create healthier plants and animals and new species.

when the Kingdom is lowered from Heaven, sounds similar to what you're saying new Heaven and a new Earth wolf will lie down with a kid etc. it also mentions extraordinary crop yields. I don't know how this kind of technology that you refer to could be applied planet wide that would involve a kind of God tech. Im a christian so I m expecting it, but seriously it's gonna take God to change the fundamental existence paradigm. Funny how all these supposed discoveries end up smothered and obliviated, Science is something I have zero respect for anymore its all just a big academic one hand clapping wankfest at this point. For example the idiotic articles that started this whole thread, fairy tales and just so stories is all it is. We blithely say how we could create this and that if only such and such, but it either makes monsters or blows up in our faces. We're gonna wait a long time if we're waiting for science to come up a solution to shooting ourselves in the foot every time someone hands us a gun. Science doesn't know how to ask the right question, you cant get the right answer asking the wrong question. Like how were dogs domesticated? clearly the wrong question also if it has the word evolve in it , I want to know what a giant trout with laughing hooks is though

What if we are the 'technology'? Awakening to the power of intention, we could 'dream' improved yields, harmony with animals and nature etc. That potential is suppressed. Harnessed, it would create heaven on earth.

 

[6079SmithW]

When the Millennial reign comes in - the City of God (Zion) will come down.

I saw a video the other day that said it is likely a mountain (mount Meru perhapse?)

Wouldnt a mountain with a high density be able to change the magnetism of the earth, resulting in the Wolf lying down with the Lamb? Just a thought.

 

[HollyHoly]

When the Millennial reign comes in - the City of God (Zion) will come down.

I saw a video the other day that said it is likely a mountain (mount Meru perhapse?)

Wouldnt a mountain with a high density be able to change the magnetism of the earth, resulting in the Wolf lying down with the Lamb? Just a thought.

I talked about that in an earlier post about how the Sumerian King list has 2 incidents of the Kingship being lowered from heaven, and the New Jerusalem can only be referring to the same kind of restructuring of the whole order of the planet/plane. The fossil record attests that such a thing has occured with whole ecosystems simply being changed mountains become plains seas become dry land animals and plants are replaced by new ones and people too new people

34Thou sawest until a stone was cut out of a mountain without hands, and it smote the image upon its feet of iron and earthenware, and utterly reduced them to powder. 35Then once for all the earthenware, the iron, the brass, the silver, the gold, were ground to powder, and became as chaff from the summer threshingfloor; and the violence of the wind carried them away, and no place was found for them: and the stone which had smitten the image became a great mountain, and filled all the earth.

Daniel saw a "mountain" come out of nowhere and completely change everything. Revelation explains that the New Jerusalem is a city which is a new world order

 

[grav]

Are these the same people who claim that humans evolved from apes in Africa, then migrated to Europe in an ice age, and became hairless and intelligent?
Zechariah Sitchin, who wrote about the Anunnaki, claimed that Advanced Beings came to our world , possibly through a watery passage.

The explorers arrived looking for gold and found it in south Africa. Over time, the gold miners grew tired of the work and rebelled. A third of the cohort, just like the Bible says of the fallen angels,.
To replace the workers, Enki created humans with various earth creatures and his own dna. Results were pitiful, or monsters, until he gene-spliced and make a gmo creature called the Adamu, a slave species.

Perhaps he did the same with other animals. Horses, cats, dogs.

 

[Broken Agate]

Makes me wonder what the humans were eating that they could share with horses or chickens.

Horses, chickens, cows, pigs, goats, sheep, ducks, etc., even elephants to some extent...but not antelope, deer (except for reindeer) bison, or moose. Why cats and dogs, but not bears, wolverines, or any of the big feline species?

What IS a domesticated animal, anyway? They seem to require a different genetic structure to wild animals, or something. I don't think that wolves will turn into poodles, Bassett hounds, Yorkshire terriers, and golden retrievers, no matter how many generations they are bred in captivity; but then, I don't think anyone has tried. You'd think that, at some point, someone would have suggested some scientific research into wolf breeding, just to prove that they really did become dogs over time.

 

[Timeshifter]

Makes me wonder what the humans were eating that they could share with horses or chickens.

Horses, chickens, cows, pigs, goats, sheep, ducks, etc., even elephants to some extent...but not antelope, deer (except for reindeer) bison, or moose. Why cats and dogs, but not bears, wolverines, or any of the big feline species?

What IS a domesticated animal, anyway? They seem to require a different genetic structure to wild animals, or something. I don't think that wolves will turn into poodles, Bassett hounds, Yorkshire terriers, and golden retrievers, no matter how many generations they are bred in captivity; but then, I don't think anyone has tried. You'd think that, at some point, someone would have suggested some scientific research into wolf breeding, just to prove that they really did become dogs over time.

Perhaps someone has and the results were not quite what they expected, or that the masses would accept!

I have always had pet dogs, and my family cats, I always felt a distinctly different vibe around them, compared to non domesticated animals.

Perhaps, like us they wound up in the wrong reality, and we adopted each other

 

[HollyHoly]

​

Makes me wonder what the humans were eating that they could share with horses or chickens.

Horses, chickens, cows, pigs, goats, sheep, ducks, etc., even elephants to some extent...but not antelope, deer (except for reindeer) bison, or moose. Why cats and dogs, but not bears, wolverines, or any of the big feline species?

What IS a domesticated animal, anyway? They seem to require a different genetic structure to wild animals, or something. I don't think that wolves will turn into poodles, Bassett hounds, Yorkshire terriers, and golden retrievers, no matter how many generations they are bred in captivity; but then, I don't think anyone has tried. You'd think that, at some point, someone would have suggested some scientific research into wolf breeding, just to prove that they really did become dogs over time.

yeah good point there is an attempt being made right now to resurrect Aurochs from existing cattle breeds they arent saying they have but they're trying Aurochs project I'd like see to see scientists try to reconstruct a wolf from a starting point of yorkshire terriers and Bichons and chihuahua's. This is interesting Dire wolf project Unfortunately for them this week this story came out

Dire Wolves werent wolves at least that's their story until they make up up another fairytale. Biggest takeaway from this is scientists cant tell a wolf from a dog or something not even a dog at all.

​

 

[SurfDakota]

This just occurred to me this morning, as I realized that my dog is a product of diffusion.
Her dad is Cane Corso x Press Canari, mom is English mastiff x pitbull. The paternal bloodline is a very old breed from Italy, crossed with a very old Spanish/Portuguese blood, the Presa, which somehow ended up on the Canary Islands, off the northwest coast of Africa.
While none of this is really ancient by our standards, the time and travel involved in the very creation of these breeds that today's dogs came from, likely took thousands of years to occur.
It is known that the Romans, and much older cultures than them kept vast kennels of choice canines, bred for specific attributes and jobs.
War was a major factor, as the mastiffs and what became known as pitbulls were absolutely fearless and formidable. They were soon crossbred into what is collectively called the bandog today. The modern term was coined in the 1970s in Australia by a renowned breeder of this type of canine. This, incidentally, was around the time that the Australian government was in the process of taking away guns and putting bans on dogs capable of protection. From that very same tyranny, I might add. Sound familiar? Look at the shitpot of a mess they have there today.
My point being, that many of our working breeds are products of thousands of years of dog-swapping, and selective breeding.
Mine will be old enough to breed next year, and I've already found a most suitable mate for her. I too, carry on the bandog lines, and I breed for temperament, health, and fearlessness. The same attributes that were passed on so many years ago, from so many places around the world, that all come together in a modern puppy.
To me, evidence of diffusion is in their very DNA. The ancients were very well-traveled, and if they were anything like me, traveling to look at a litter and wheeling and dealing around the campfire is part of the life.
Thank you for your time, and thoughts if you have any.

 

[HollyHoly]

This just occurred to me this morning, as I realized that my dog is a product of diffusion.
Her dad is Cane Corso x Press Canari, mom is English mastiff x pitbull. The paternal bloodline is a very old breed from Italy, crossed with a very old Spanish/Portuguese blood, the Presa, which somehow ended up on the Canary Islands, off the northwest coast of Africa.
While none of this is really ancient by our standards, the time and travel involved in the very creation of these breeds that today's dogs came from, likely took thousands of years to occur.
It is known that the Romans, and much older cultures than them kept vast kennels of choice canines, bred for specific attributes and jobs.
War was a major factor, as the mastiffs and what became known as pitbulls were absolutely fearless and formidable. They were soon crossbred into what is collectively called the bandog today. The modern term was coined in the 1970s in Australia by a renowned breeder of this type of canine. This, incidentally, was around the time that the Australian government was in the process of taking away guns and putting bans on dogs capable of protection. From that very same tyranny, I might add. Sound familiar? Look at the shitpot of a mess they have there today.
My point being, that many of our working breeds are products of thousands of years of dog-swapping, and selective breeding.
Mine will be old enough to breed next year, and I've already found a most suitable mate for her. I too, carry on the bandog lines, and I breed for temperament, health, and fearlessness. The same attributes that were passed on so many years ago, from so many places around the world, that all come together in a modern puppy.
To me, evidence of diffusion is in their very DNA. The ancients were very well-traveled, and if they were anything like me, traveling to look at a litter and wheeling and dealing around the campfire is part of the life.
Thank you for your time, and thoughts if you have any.

its funny that these 'types' seem to crop up variously in different places this mastiff type dog doesn't ever seem to have been in the Americas but it seems that all over the old world they turn up as treasure guardians or livestock guardians or even war dogs going back to ancient times .Check out this depiction of one WOW!!!!

​

this is a crazy big formidable dog of yer classic mastiff type but this dog is no relation to the Siberian dogs that stared this thread so where did these come from ?? because here they are four thousand years ago in Sippar, Iraq

​

 

[SurfDakota]

This just occurred to me this morning, as I realized that my dog is a product of diffusion.
Her dad is Cane Corso x Press Canari, mom is English mastiff x pitbull. The paternal bloodline is a very old breed from Italy, crossed with a very old Spanish/Portuguese blood, the Presa, which somehow ended up on the Canary Islands, off the northwest coast of Africa.
While none of this is really ancient by our standards, the time and travel involved in the very creation of these breeds that today's dogs came from, likely took thousands of years to occur.
It is known that the Romans, and much older cultures than them kept vast kennels of choice canines, bred for specific attributes and jobs.
War was a major factor, as the mastiffs and what became known as pitbulls were absolutely fearless and formidable. They were soon crossbred into what is collectively called the bandog today. The modern term was coined in the 1970s in Australia by a renowned breeder of this type of canine. This, incidentally, was around the time that the Australian government was in the process of taking away guns and putting bans on dogs capable of protection. From that very same tyranny, I might add. Sound familiar? Look at the shitpot of a mess they have there today.
My point being, that many of our working breeds are products of thousands of years of dog-swapping, and selective breeding.
Mine will be old enough to breed next year, and I've already found a most suitable mate for her. I too, carry on the bandog lines, and I breed for temperament, health, and fearlessness. The same attributes that were passed on so many years ago, from so many places around the world, that all come together in a modern puppy.
To me, evidence of diffusion is in their very DNA. The ancients were very well-traveled, and if they were anything like me, traveling to look at a litter and wheeling and dealing around the campfire is part of the life.
Thank you for your time, and thoughts if you have any.

its funny that these 'types' seem to crop up variously in different places this mastiff type dog doesn't ever seem to have been in the Americas but it seems that all over the old world they turn up as treasure guardians or livestock guardians or even war dogs going back to ancient times .Check out this depiction of one WOW!!!!

View attachment 6049
​

this is a crazy big formidable dog of yer classic mastiff type but this dog is no relation to the Siberian dogs that stared this thread so where did these come from ?? because here they are four thousand years ago in Sippar, Iraq

​

I think a lot of selective breeding was in play, but you're right, there are some mystery holes in the canine history.
The depiction you showed is awesome, thanks! One of my favorite old canine depictions is of the 2 Roman spear bearers with the dogs that look like big pitbulls.
In the depiction you showed, the molossus DNA is jumping right out at me. The longer back legs, long torso, definitely that block of a head. I would love to actually see some old stock like that dog.