SH Archive 1840: Napoleon's Funeral Carriage

[Archive]

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Username: jd755
Date: 2019-06-21 17:46:34
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Are we being taken for fools?
From here; Translation des cendres de Napoléon aux Invalides
Mort de Napoléon III, le 9 janvier 1873
Napoleon III'S funeral cart, from 1873 look familiar?
1873 and not a photograph to be had, yet!

Funérailles des victimes des 22, 23, 25 février 1848
Funeral of the victims of the 22, 23, 25 February 1848
Another 'giant' funeral cart rolled out 8 years after Boney's, what's the chances?

From here; Retour des Cendres de Napoléon. / Détail du cortège funèbre. | Paris Musées
Boney's funeral procession detail, look familiar?
Anonymous engraver, naturally, but a good one going off of the detail.

Then again the scale is all over the shop
From pinterest

From here L'Artiste / Funérailles de Napoléon / Char funèbre. | Paris Musées

 

[Timeshifter]

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Username: Timeshifter
Date: 2019-06-21 18:05:22
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I think we are @jd755 and we have to keep wading through the bullshit and colate the evidence. We are slowly getting there!

This image is full of bollocks. I mean, it makes no sense as a funeral precession. Whats that little dude on the right up to? Are those griffins on the carriage? What are the women holding up? Giant statues in the background?

 

[KD Archive]

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Username: KorbenDallas
Date: 2019-06-21 18:12:44
Reaction Score: 6

There could be some credibility to an opinion that N1 and N3 were one and the same. Something had to fill in the time void of the 19th century while totally different events were taking place.

 

[Timeshifter]

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Username: Timeshifter
Date: 2019-06-21 18:32:15
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There could be some credibility to an opinion that N1 and N3 were one and the same. Something had to fill in the time void of the 19th century while totally different events were taking place.

Likely, given the simalarities between them

However, neither of these gents look anything Like Napoleon 1s supposed death mask...

 

[Archive]

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Username: jd755
Date: 2019-06-21 18:50:04
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From here; Post-Mortem: l'Empereur arrive en France - NapoleonPrisonnier.com
Translation by google

December 8, 1840 transhipment of the body of Napoleon to Cherbourg frigate Belle-Poule on Normandy.
Transported by Normandy from Cherbourg to Le Havre, Napoleon's body advanced in small steps to Paris on one of the flat boats of the Seine, the Dorado.
December 14 in the morning the sarcophagus, transhipped on a parade nave 24 meters long surmounted by a funeral temple in bronzed woodwork, continued its triumphal march, preceded by a boat of musicians and followed the race, on both banks by innumerable riders to the Courbevoie landing stage, where a reostral column and a Greek temple had been erected.

At 9 o'clock in the morning, in a terrible cold, the procession composed at Courbevoie starts off, while the bursts of the artillery of Neuilly respond the bursts of the Invalides and with the drone of Notre-Dame ring all the bells from the city.

On the bridge of the Concorde are lined up, in a double hedge of mediocre silhouettes: Prudence, Strength, Justice, Agriculture, Eloquence, Fine Arts and Commerce. At both ends of the bridge, masts with eagles and banners.

In front of the Invalides, history replaces symbols. On both sides of the esplanade are historical figures. The crowd is lively, noisy, stormy, emotional, too, but emotionless without sadness. This is not a day of mourning for Paris. It's a day of celebration. The people who have the sense of the exact designations said it: "It's the Ash Festival."
"The eighty thousand men," said the Duchess of Albufera, "gave the appearance of a magazine more than a burial."

King Louis-Philippe went to join Joinville. The prince salutes the sword, simply. He is unaware that the historical words which are to be exchanged between him and his father have been arrested in the Council of Ministers. We have neglected to communicate the words of his role and he remains short. Louis Philippe, after a hesitation, improvises a phrase of circumstance. We will arrange this for the Moniteur and the next day, the public will learn that in Joinville telling him: "Sire, I present the body of the Emperor Napoleon", the king replied: "I receive it in the name of France" .
There was still the scene of the delivery of the sword of Austerlitz by King Louis Philippe. The aide-de-camp Athalin carried the weapon on a cushion. He handed it first to General Soult, President of the Council, who presented it to General Bertrand. But the old man staggered with fatigue and emotion, and Gourgaud had to make the gesture in his place. The Bonapartist newspaper Le Commerce will note with satisfaction that the king avoided touching himself with the sword of the Emperor. The coffin was also placed with Eylau's hat and a cross of the Legion of Honor.
The sarcophagus placed under his canopy, the religious ceremony began. At half-past three, the ceremony ends. For a long time the huge crowd outside broke up into a formidable stir and dispersed to the suburbs, where young people come back singing "the Marseillaise".

The Imperial day of December 15, 1840 is over.


Still no 1873 funeral photographs.

 

[Timeshifter]

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Username: Timeshifter
Date: 2019-06-21 18:54:44
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Nope, but by 1852 we have excellent photos of his Nephew NP3...

Photographic portrait of Louis-Napoleon (1852) by Gustave Le Gray

So again we have the problem, were are the photos?

 

[Archive]

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Username: jd755
Date: 2019-06-21 19:28:41
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Found a single photograph dated 18 March 1871. Posed for sure and not the funeral but at least someone hand a camera in the early 1870's.
From here; The Bloodbath of the Paris Commune

 

[KD Archive]

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Username: KorbenDallas
Date: 2019-06-21 19:36:26
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There are tons of French photographs from 1870s. Search for Paris Commune 1870s. Personally think that the storyline itself was staged at a later date. The event is very reminiscent of the US Civil War.

 

[Archive]

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Username: jd755
Date: 2019-06-21 19:59:43
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I was looking for any image with a date upon it just to show cameras were in use, not seeking to divert from the funeral shenanigans.
However this snippet found whilst searching for photographs of Prussians in Paris 1871 is of great relevance to me to these tales of Napoleon.
From here; Franco Prussian War - impact
The removal of Napoleon III who had protected the Papal States allowed Italy to seize them. The French garrison of Rome withdrew . Italian forces sized the city. The papal states ewre annexed, completing the unification of Italy. Rome became the capital of the new Italian kingdom.

I've discovered all sorts of weird events not directly related to these funerals but will throw up a new thread once I've collated them.

 

[Archive]

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Username: VonKitty
Date: 2019-06-21 22:31:49
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Love this from https://shannonselin.com/2017/05/napoleons-body/
As to whats in the carriage? Something BIG!

I had found this site as well and it’s a good one. Here’s a description of the funeral procession Napoleon’s Funeral in Paris in 1840 | Shannon Selin and the carriage description, though not giving us a total height:

At 11:00, the sailors carried the casket to the funeral carriage, which was more triumphal car than hearse. Resting on four massive gilt wheels, it consisted of a gilded base, 25 feet long and 6 feet high, with a semi-circular platform in front. On this platform were statues of genies, supporting the crown of Charlemagne. Other genies held garlands and the trumpet of fame. At the back rose a pedestal, 18 feet long and 7 feet high, covered with gold and purple cloth, with the cipher and arms of Napoleon. On both sides hung two velvet imperial mantles, decorated with bees. Behind was a profusion of flags. On the pedestal stood fourteen statues of draped female figures (six on one side and six on the other, plus one at each end), somewhat larger than life, entirely gilded, supporting with their heads and hands an immense golden shield, above which was placed a model of Napoleon’s sarcophagus. Napoleon’s actual casket was placed in the base of the carriage, where it could not been by spectators.

The carriage, weighing 13 tons, was drawn by 16 black horses. The latter were richly caparisoned in gold cloth, their manes adorned with gold tresses and white plumes. Each horse was led by a groom, dressed in green and gold imperial livery. Some 400-500 sailors from La Belle Poule marched 15 abreast before and behind the carriage, headed by the Prince of Joinville on horseback. Masses of troops preceded and followed the carriage. The clergy took their seats in carriages of black and silver. Napoleon’s old aides-de-camp and people belonging to his household were in the procession, along with other civil and military officials, veterans of the Napoleonic Wars, and various active battalions, brigades and squadrons. The National Guards and troops stationed along the route fell into line after the passage of the funeral carriage, closing the procession.

 

[Ishtar]

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Username: Ishtar
Date: 2019-06-21 22:45:36
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Whatever is in that coffin, whatever this event was truly celebrating, whatever time period this occurred in i think the original drawings represent something massive, beautiful and extremely heavy. Later incarnations might not be using the same materials/technology, but the OP posts look a little different to me.

What i'm ultimately saying, is that the beauty/mystery/enormity of the architecture of the location of the 'grave' beckons toward something more massive/mysterious than parade 'floats' (interesting word)

Ark of the Covenant? Which is often surmised to be an energy source... wouldn’t be surprised at this type of object popping up in other cultures as well.

 

[Archive]

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Username: Recognition
Date: 2019-06-21 23:35:15
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I had found this site as well and it’s a good one. Here’s a description of the funeral procession Napoleon’s Funeral in Paris in 1840 | Shannon Selin and the carriage description, though not giving us a total height:

At 11:00, the sailors carried the casket to the funeral carriage, which was more triumphal car than hearse. Resting on four massive gilt wheels, it consisted of a gilded base, 25 feet long and 6 feet high, with a semi-circular platform in front. On this platform were statues of genies, supporting the crown of Charlemagne. Other genies held garlands and the trumpet of fame. At the back rose a pedestal, 18 feet long and 7 feet high, covered with gold and purple cloth, with the cipher and arms of Napoleon. On both sides hung two velvet imperial mantles, decorated with bees. Behind was a profusion of flags. On the pedestal stood fourteen statues of draped female figures (six on one side and six on the other, plus one at each end), somewhat larger than life, entirely gilded, supporting with their heads and hands an immense golden shield, above which was placed a model of Napoleon’s sarcophagus. Napoleon’s actual casket was placed in the base of the carriage, where it could not been by spectators.

The carriage, weighing 13 tons, was drawn by 16 black horses. The latter were richly caparisoned in gold cloth, their manes adorned with gold tresses and white plumes. Each horse was led by a groom, dressed in green and gold imperial livery. Some 400-500 sailors from La Belle Poule marched 15 abreast before and behind the carriage, headed by the Prince of Joinville on horseback. Masses of troops preceded and followed the carriage. The clergy took their seats in carriages of black and silver. Napoleon’s old aides-de-camp and people belonging to his household were in the procession, along with other civil and military officials, veterans of the Napoleonic Wars, and various active battalions, brigades and squadrons. The National Guards and troops stationed along the route fell into line after the passage of the funeral carriage, closing the procession.

13 tons??? Can 16 horses truly pull that amount of weight? Idk.......

 

[Archive]

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Username: VonKitty
Date: 2019-06-22 01:54:49
Reaction Score: 5

13 tons??? Can 16 horses truly pull that amount of weight? Idk.......

I was thinking the same, especially while wearing those heavy cloaks. Apparently they can, according to this article which claims a pair of draft horses pulled 45-50 tons. Dang! Draft Horses are Amazingly Strong. Like, Can-Pull-a-Semi-Truck Strong.
Seems rather cruel, though!

 

[Archive]

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Username: ISeenItFirst
Date: 2019-06-22 02:24:57
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13 tons??? Can 16 horses truly pull that amount of weight? Idk.......

With or without wheels? This makes a HUGE difference. Most of the records and such that get discussed, and what I have seen in competition and such is without wheels. There are single men who have pulled that much weight, on wheels. Ive even seen some pulling trucks with their teeth, or even more sensitive parts of anatomy.

 

[KD Archive]

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Username: KorbenDallas
Date: 2019-06-22 02:41:18
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I think from the traditionally taught concept of the 1840s, we keep on giving those people too much credit. Like they would ever come up with doing such a thing with horses.

From the obscured unofficial steampunk point of view, we do not give those people enough credit. Why would they use horses when they have public and personal steam cars running all over the place?

Feels like we are asking the wrong questions here. It’s probably not whether they could accomplish such a feat with horses only, but why would they do this re-burial in first place? Who was Napoleon? Was he a man, or was he a God?

 

[Archive]

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Username: Recognition
Date: 2019-06-22 05:06:17
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Go

I think from the traditionally taught concept of the 1840s, we keep on giving those people too much credit. Like they would ever come up with doing such a thing with horses.

From the obscured unofficial steampunk point of view, we do not give those people enough credit. Why would they use horses when they have public and personal steam cars running all over the place?

Feels like we are asking the wrong questions here. It’s probably not whether they could accomplish such a feat with horses only, but why would they do this re-burial in first place? Who was Napoleon? Was he a man, or was he a God?

Good point. I tend to lean toward like vibrational levitation, but whose to say there wasn't vibrational levitation in one cycle and steam punk in the next? Regarding this event, whatever it was, while zooming in to look for wheels i noticed this tent filled with smoke? A huge funeral pyre for a massive being? Certainly not for just one normal man!

Check out this very specific beam of late that pops up when you play with the contrast!

 

[Archive]

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Username: VonKitty
Date: 2019-06-22 12:06:27
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Feels like we are asking the wrong questions here. It’s probably not whether they could accomplish such a feat with horses only, but why would they do this re-burial in first place? Who was Napoleon? Was he a man, or was he a God?

Not that real motives are ever divulged, but this says it was political, to fuel patriotism. The two key themes for the ceremony: “civic virtue and military glory”. The death of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Retour des Cendres: French and British perspectives - napoleon.org
Just as political motivations lay behind previous governments’ reluctance to bring Napoleon back, so it was for Thiers’ decision. The move to return Napoleon’s mortal remains to France can be interpreted as an “attempt to increase the patriotic reputation of the regime”.55 For Thiers, increasing the regime’s patriotic reputation was also a way to make “the government popular.”56Although Thiers “was himself one of the propagators of the Napoleon cult”,57 he was also realistic and knew that the return of Napoleon was a momentous event for the French population. Every precaution therefore had to be taken in order to prevent a mass uprising that could overthrow his government. To some extent, the political motives behind the Retour des Cendres were just as important, if not more so, than “the sentimental memories from the Napoleonic period”.58

And here we have Napoleon’s Jesus comparison for his saving France.
(I did a quick search but could not find the painting or lithograph. Perhaps they’re in the book referenced in the notes.). Funny how there an “abundance” of media, yet there’s not one photo!
An abundance of newsprints, lithographs, paintings, and songs exist to offer us a unique insight into how people viewed the Retour des Cendres. Of these, a few themes common to all the media mentioned above stand out. In particular, his portrayal as a prince or the Christ is a recurrent theme, and the same representative symbols appear throughout.

Gustave Tassaert’s painting, France and the Prince de Joinville at the Tomb of Saint Helena, which recreates the resurrection of Jesus Christ, is one of the many representations of Napoleon that plays with Christ symbolism.59 Napoleon is depicted, complete with shining halo and white cloth draped over him, emerging from a tomb. On his right is a figure very similar to the Madeleine, adorned with the royal coat, who is probably his wife. To his left, there is an open door which is similar to the stone rolled away from Christ’s tomb. This image is a very clear echo of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and gives the reader the idea the Napoleon is not only the Emperor of the French but also saviour of the nation.

This saviour of the nation idea is also found in a lithograph by an anonymous artist, entitled Tremble All! Kings in League with One Another! Because of his Open Tomb….60 This lithograph has a distinct military connotation which can be attributed to the wars occurring at the time in the Middle East between Turkey and Egypt, and the problems resulting from alliances and treaties agreed after the Treaty of Paris in 1815. In the lithograph, Napoleon is depicted brandishing a sword into a shining light and handing it to a statue that – like Marianne during the French Revolution – personifies France. Napoleon has come out of his tomb (which is at the bottom of the picture) and is ascending to Les Invalides, which is visible through the shining light at the top, thus recreating Christ’s ascension into heaven. It seems that the artist of the lithograph wants to portray the idea that Napoleon, although passed away, is still the one to protect France. Once again, his comparison with Jesus Christ demonstrates the high esteem the French people had for the Emperor. It was not however simply in paintings that Napoleon was compared to the son of God. In a popular song of the period, the comparison is explicit: “Jesus, by his strength/Saved the pagan, lost in sin,/Napoleon saved France;/Like Jesus he was sold/After odious sufferings,/Jesus died on the cross:/Napoleon at Saint Helena,/Has suffered like Jesus.”61

Probably just me but "Carnival!".

No, not just you.
The Comtesse de Mollien wrote “As much as this festival was popular in the streets of Paris so it was unpopular where I was; for many reasons we were glad yesterday was over”.72 Many of the upper classes felt that the procession was more of a carnival than a commemoration, although equally there were many who felt “deeply moved” by the event.73The sentiment that the procession more closely resembled a carnival was one also felt by the French poet Victor Hugo. Hugo had become a fervent Bonapartist in the 1830s, and was never afraid of printing his thoughts. He was upset that the government had hidden the real coffin. “The government seemed to be afraid of the phantom that it had evoked”.74

 

[KD Archive]

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Username: KorbenDallas
Date: 2019-06-22 12:20:32
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Today we have radio, TV and internet. I do not see any political benefits in an event of this scale exposed to only a tiny fraction of the population back then. I could be totally wrong, of course.

 

[AthroposRex]

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Username: AnthroposRex
Date: 2019-06-22 13:19:15
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mmm, could be, did the French hold carnivals back then? Did anyone?

a side note, wtf are those things atop of the Arc? Which are no longer there? Considering the size of the arc (50m) they are not small.

Also, 1840. 13 years after the French supposedly invented Photography, and no photos?

View attachment 24142

edit: Whilst looking for old photos of the Arc DT, could not find anything pre 1960. However,

Victor Hugo had a similar funeral, but his carriage was a little less grand

View attachment 24143

However, by the time we get to the Arc, we have this? and the Stuff on the roof is back....

View attachment 24144

Symbolism? Scarifice?

Holy crap, the size of that carriage. It's gotta be 50 feel tall or more. Compared with the scale of the people, I gotta wonder about the train of horse that pulled it. Can't have had a low center of gravity.

 

[Archive]

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Username: jd755
Date: 2019-06-22 13:53:02
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Holy crap, the size of that carriage. It's gotta be 50 feel tall or more. Compared with the scale of the people, I gotta wonder about the train of horse that pulled it. Can't have had a low center of gravity.

All depends on which drawing you are looking at. I don't feel any of them are drawn to scale.
Did find one other today showing how those fine horses, they are not draught horses are connected to the carriage. How they could steer it is anyone's guess as there isn't a driver or coachmen in any of the drawings. And another thing in most of them there is at least one bloke holding the curtain down. Bear in mind also its Paris in December and likely to be a tad cold but no bugger is in winter clothing. And those are not giants, just soldiers in the foreground to try and give perspective, to me at least always to me.
From here: source

500 images at this site on a search for Napoleon Roger-Viollet

Also from that site Victor Hugo's funeral gives a perspective between man and Arc.

And Boney's first funeral on St Helena.