# Name change of countries and cities



## Nezumi (Dec 24, 2021)

Genereal discussion and record of the name changes of our earth,  Looks like the most recent changes were in the 1900s? 







Any one know alternative reasons for country/city name changes? apart from the becoming independent etc, 
The true reason why Siam changed to Thailand?


I'm aware of some of the old and ancient names of places but I'm not that old and still kind of amazed how many of these I didnt know and were "recently" changed. 
Throughout history which names have remained the longest and why? 



Honestly I feel like the younger generation have not  even heard of some of these or the older generation has forgotten , pretty sad tbh

Would be nice to keep a record of old country/city names

I know india was referred to as *Jambudvipa *
indigenous tribes of brazil called the land* Pindorama
Mexico *is quite old name?


----------



## PennyLane (Dec 27, 2021)

Nezumi said:


> Genereal discussion and record of the name changes of our earth,  Looks like the most recent changes were in the 1900s?
> 
> 
> View attachment 15067
> ...


I am guilty of not knowing many of these old names. I can only speculate the name changes could have been to the reshuffling of dynasties and political structures. Interesting thought to ponder, i hope more members weigh in with some opinions.


----------



## fbloise (Dec 27, 2021)

When I was a child, I had a chance of reading my old grandpa Encyclopaedia Britannica (about 14 volumes and from early 50’s) - world maps were so different indeed. 
A very powerful Soviet Union (no traces of Tartaria at all), a very rural China but hardly mentions of Manchuria, etc.


----------



## mundomom (Dec 27, 2021)

The Kolbrin ancient texts, saved for thousands of years, plus the accompanying book (The Kailedy) mention many old names of communities, some of which may be no longer known! Maybe in the distant past they were changed within the influence of others politically (or even spiritually) speaking. There may also be some place names which have been changed in much later texts such as was done per translations with the common protestant bibles (so many variants there). Might be an interesting research project to hunt down some of these very old place names of cities seen on the maps of the day, or in oral histories, including what other writings that may be out there! Marco Polo and others (not as famous), were not the only ones to write of their travels!


----------



## Oracle (Jan 2, 2022)

Nezumi said:


> Genereal discussion and record of the name changes of our earth,  Looks like the most recent changes were in the 1900s?
> 
> 
> View attachment 15067
> ...


In my opinion, this is one of the ways used to make it difficult to understand our true history.Part of the amnesia syndrome.
Similarly, east,west,north and south were in different directions according to old explorer journals I read years ago. I never noted which corresponded to which in the change over ( and never knew when the change occurred) unfortunately. Recently, I was trying to find this knowledge again to no avail. It's been wiped. I would have to find and reread the respective sailor's journals to work it out but that was many hard drives ago sadly. If anyone can enlighten me or direct me to a source for this info I would be very grateful.


----------



## Quiahuitl (Feb 13, 2022)

Mexico is a very old name, it is in the Nahuatl language which is the principal indigenous language of the area, spoke for at least 5000 years. It means 'Place of the umbilical of the Moon.'
It is derived from three Nahuatl word-roots -
Meztli = moon
Xictli = umbilical cord
Co - place, place of

The -tli suffix indicates a noun, so removing those suffixes gives Mez-xic-co, shortened to Mexico.

The letter X is pronounced like sh so the pronunciation was originally Meksheeka, and the name is still pronounced this way when talking about the native culture.


----------



## AntiSoof (Jul 2, 2022)

Divide and conquer is the reason that much changes. Young people no longer understand the elderly and vice versa. That's why so much changes; names, systems, schools, language, culture, and so on.


----------



## space966 (Jul 2, 2022)

It happens for political & spiritual reasons, streets are also renamed. Like in 1920ies St.Petersburg was renamed to Leningrad. Someone born in 1960ies thinks, that he was born in Leningrad, but he has grandmother, who was born in 1890ies in St.Petersburg, it is the same city, which is confusing. It's something, like someone comes, and says: from now on bread will be called iron. People always knew, that sky is up, ground down. Someone comes, and says: sky is down, ground is up.


----------



## Silveryou (Jul 2, 2022)

Nezumi said:


> Genereal discussion and record of the name changes of our earth, Looks like the most recent changes were in the 1900s?


Not in the 1900s but precisely after WW2. It seems the J-Allies saved the World and then had to change place names in order to improve our health and knowledge.


----------



## perception (Jul 3, 2022)

Peking vs Beijing is the same word 北京 written with two different transliteration systems.
Peking - Wade–Giles - Wikipedia
Beijing - Pinyin - Wikipedia


----------



## Gladius (Jul 4, 2022)

Name changes also occur on the local levels, sometimes due to influence from another culture.

I can bring a very localized example in India. As once explained to me by locals, India is full with names that may sound Indian, but are in fact "anglicized", meaning they're now written/pronounced in the way the British understood them, and even the locals themselves had stopped using the original names.

For example, one of the most popular beach village in Goa, India, is called Arambol.
Only some locals know that the original name is Harmalkar.
The only evidence remains outside of town, on a dirt road, there's a very old welcome sign saying "Harmalkar".
In the Hindi wiki, it is mentioned that Arambol is also "Harmal", but the -kar is gone. -Kar indicates family name suffix.
The locals of Goa seem to only call the village as Arambol.

One "funny" example is the city of Pondicherry in India. A known former French colony in the south.
Originally called Poduke, it was renamed by the French. Nowadays, the Indians had "indianized" it, and it's officially called Punducherry. (Which is simply how you'd pronounce Pondicherry with an Indian pronunciation...)


----------



## Lexi (Jul 11, 2022)

Persia = Iran

Mesopotamia Akkadian, Sumerian, Assyrian and Babylonian empires = Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Turkey, Iran and Syria (basically a chunk of the Middle East).

Czechoslovakia = Slovakia and the Czech Republic (soon-to-be renamed Czechia?).

New Holland = Australia

Prussia = Russia


----------



## Kayola (Jul 15, 2022)

I think there are several reasons for changing the name of the countries. When I read the top post of the topicstarter, for some reason the associations "Siamese twin" and "Ceylon tea" came to mind. The word combinations remained, but there are no such countries anymore. Perhaps the names could have been changed to break the associative association of some phenomenon with the territory. For example, Persia was a great country. And Iran? Perhaps the territory fell under the influence of those who did not want the locals to remain emotionally connected to Persia. Just as the territory of my country was at one time stubbornly called by a different name.

A more logical and less intuitive explanation follows from this sentence: it is a territorial claim. In the 1900s, many empires collapsed. The countries that changed their name became independent of those empires, ceased to be colonies. In the 19th century, they were under the cultural occupation of these empires, which changed their names to more British, French, German, Spanish, and so on, respectively. In order to eliminate the connection with the former center of the empire to beat the colonial past and the corresponding self-perception out of the minds of the locals, historical names began to return. At the same time, it seems that these are new names, since the imperial sources of material culture - books, maps, and so on - contained the corresponding imperial names. The countries that lost their historical name, I suspect, were just the opposite, falling under the influence of those who did not benefit from it (Persia).

Now most empires (except russia) have disintegrated. In my country, Ukraine, they also change the names of cities and streets. And cities are being given the historical names they had before the corresponding changes in the 17th and 18th centuries by the russian empire. It is the same with the country itself: the russian empire stubbornly called Ukraine "little russia", leaving behind this name territorial claims, which could be used in the future (which, in fact, can now be observed clearly). In order to exclude from the cultural layer associative ties with the occupant country, the names are changed. The historical names are returned to the cities, but not those that were assigned during the occupation of these territories by the russian empire or the soviet union. In a few generations, this connection should have worn off, but it happened faster thanks to the war. Moreover, the very process of the return of historical names increased as the neighboring state's claim to ownership of the territory increased.

As for the names of the streets - in all centuries, the streets were named after individuals who were active participants in the propaganda of the current government. They were either aristocrats, political factions, or writers and scientists who promoted the desired paradigm. After getting rid of the russian occupation in 1991, my country adopted a policy of excluding communist concepts, which, in turn, began to lead to a very loyal change in street names. Mention of writers and political figures who in one way or another participated in the suppression of Ukrainians' freedoms began to be excluded from the cultural space that would have exalted these figures. Streets began to be given either neutral names (mostly in villages) or names dedicated to figures of Ukrainian cultural space (mostly after 2014). One telling example of renaming Ukrainian cities is Artemivsk (named in the 1920s after a communist and the founder of the republic, before that it was Bakhmut), which reverted to its historic name.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)


----------



## Gladius (Jul 16, 2022)

Kayola said:


> I think there are several reasons for changing the name of the countries.



In regards to Persia becoming Iran, it was mostly done for local political reasons which the people there in fact support.
In Iran you have the Persian majority which makes some 50% of the population, but there are a dozen of other groups of a significant portion, such as Azari and Balochi, all which are of Iranic origin. The name Iran signifies it is a country for all Iranic people, so it eliminates any nationalism from Persians against others, or from smaller groups wishing to secede (apart from some Kurds and Balochi). It is also reflected in the parliament, where seats are reserved for certain populations, to ensure their representation.
In essence, there are Iranian citizens but there aren't really Iranian 'people' (the Persians usually call themselves Persians, not Iranians) so the name identity is there to provide the glue for all those nations.


----------



## Kayola (Jul 18, 2022)

May be. Also it may be just official reason, but not a true reason. Many reasons that purposes for people is not true, not only in Iran


----------



## Gladius (Jul 18, 2022)

Kayola said:


> May be. Also it may be just official reason, but not a true reason. Many reasons that purposes for people is not true, not only in Iran


Yes, could be both. You spoke of territorial claim, well here's an interesting example.

"Persia" resonates with the old Persian/Parthian/Mesopotamian Empires from Bible stories to early medieval times. 
The Persian entity has fallen out of greatness since centuries, and became under Russian and British influence. 
The name stuck along many years after the country was changed to Iran, in 1935.
I recall seeing world atlases from 80s and 90s which still named it Persia.
I dont think they really "fought" hard to implement the name in the public conscious. 

So in regards to territorial claim, actually Iran as a name gives the country much more "justification" to expand its influence and act in low-key imperialism. The country sees itself as home of the Iranian people. Iranians include Kurdistan and parts of Iraq, Afghanistan (which literally speaks Persian), and west Pakistan.

The Arabs particularly oppose Iran for this, as they think it has become an imperialist state, especially since identifying as Iran. 
If Iran was still "Persia" in our consciousness, things may have taken the opposite course, such as the country falling to civil war and getting divided between ethnic groups, or annexed by neighbors such as Iraq, Turkey and Russia, with eventually Persians keeping their central share and reduced to be just another central Asian soviet satellite. I saw somewhere that the Iran name change was inspired by Nazism. Maybe they understood that this "rebranding" was necessary if they wanted to stay politically relevant, otherwise nationalistic waves would've broken Iran apart. Iran had a monarch up until 1979 so I think that rebranding was probably a smart move for the time.


----------



## Udjat (Jul 19, 2022)

"They" changed not only territory names "they" also changed peoples' names in early 1900's.  My family from both parents, came to this country and they had to change their names to a more Americanized last name.  I think the reasoning is the same for the name changes of both country and man.  Someone said in an earlier comment, divide and conquer, and I know that it is exactly that.  

Most young people today would never be able to even tell you where they are on the globe, how would they know if an older name of a country even existed? I sometimes substitute at the local schools and it is amazing how the devolution is apparent. It even continues on through the college years of education.  This is exactly the result the "They" was hoping for, and boy did "They" succeed!!! 

All I can say is, a rose is still a rose even if you call it something else.  I believe that symbolism is almost a certain bane for the human existence.


----------



## Gladius (Jul 19, 2022)

Udjat said:


> "They" changed not only territory names "they" also changed peoples' names in early 1900's.  My family from both parents, came to this country and they had to change their names to a more Americanized last name.  I think the reasoning is the same for the name changes of both country and man.  Someone said in an earlier comment, divide and conquer, and I know that it is exactly that.



Surnames went through a more radical change, as the system behind them changed.
It seems that most if not all of the western world used to go by "son of" , "daughter of" for a surname. Iceland is the only western country to still preserve the system.
In Bhutan, there's a system of no surnames, but rather a second firstname can be added.

Jews in every country used to go by 'son/daughter of', sometimes the name will contain the grandparent as well, sometimes to signify the person's high status. ("John son of Paul son of James").
The Jews had the surname change imposed upon them between 1500 and 1800.

As a mass exodus of Jews from Spain took place, the Ottoman authorities encouraged the adoption of a surname, mostly according to the family's original location. ("John of Toledo")
The same happened in the east, in Iraq and Iran, with names such as Baghdadi, Shirazi, Tehrani and such.

In Europe, the authorities decided Jews will carry surnames by profession. Most of the Jewish Germanic surnames are either a literal profession, or a name of something they had grown. Later, due to intermarriages, other name types became associated with Jews.

As for the Arabs, the entire name of the person changes when he becomes a parent, based on his first-born name
It is a sign of respect.
For example, the Palestinian leader is named Mahmoud Abbas, but he is called Abu Mazen, even by the media.


----------



## Froglich (Jul 20, 2022)

Nezumi said:


> The true reason why Siam changed to Thailand?


Ethnonationalism: Siam is the name of the region, while Thais are the majority people occupying it. E.g., it'd be like a Chinese junta renaming the country "Han", then treating minority constituents like trash (i.e., like China already does anyway), or Japan renaming itself to Yamato to crap all over the Ainu.


----------



## Kayola (Jul 25, 2022)

Froglich said:


> Ethnonationalism: Siam is the name of the region, while Thais are the majority people occupying it. E.g., it'd be like a Chinese junta renaming the country "Han", then treating minority constituents like trash (i.e., like China already does anyway), or Japan renaming itself to Yamato to crap all over the Ainu.


I don't think I would agree. The people of Siam were never called Thais. They became so only after the country changed its name. Before that, they were called Siamese people (as they are still called from time to time).


----------



## Udjat (Jul 25, 2022)

This sounds bizarre, but when I was a teenager I remember the name Kiev, because it is part of my heritage on my mother's side of the family.  Her father's parents came from Russia as immigrants.  I was always proud of this and asked questions and my mom was able to answer only what she could remember.  We mentioned Kiev quite a few times and I do remember her telling me it was not to be confused by a similar named city, just spelled differently.  This city she was saying was similarly spelled to Kiev was Kief.  

Let me remind you that this incident took place twenty plus years ago.  When the war started in the Ukraine just recently this name came up again, but the Kiev spelling was different again.  

I don't know if it is a Mandela effect thing going on but why would I remember this detail.  Seems strange to me, but it makes me question how easy it is for a city to be erased from existence systematically?


----------



## Kayola (Jul 26, 2022)

Udjat said:


> This sounds bizarre, but when I was a teenager I remember the name Kiev, because it is part of my heritage on my mother's side of the family.  Her father's parents came from Russia as immigrants.  I was always proud of this and asked questions and my mom was able to answer only what she could remember.  We mentioned Kiev quite a few times and I do remember her telling me it was not to be confused by a similar named city, just spelled differently.  This city she was saying was similarly spelled to Kiev was Kief.
> 
> Let me remind you that this incident took place twenty plus years ago.  When the war started in the Ukraine just recently this name came up again, but the Kiev spelling was different again.
> 
> I don't know if it is a Mandela effect thing going on but why would I remember this detail.  Seems strange to me, but it makes me question how easy it is for a city to be erased from existence systematically?


Interesting, but I don't think there's a Mandela effect here. Kyiv, the city I come from, has always been a tidbit for a lot of neighboring states. As the capital of Ukraine, it is spelled exactly as it is written above, according to the rules of transliteration from the Ukrainian language. But it has not always been this way. When Kyiv was part of the soviet union and the russian empire, the russian pronunciation was used and, accordingly, it was spelled Kiev in the Latin alphabet. But sometimes it was spelled as Kief, because of the peculiarities of pronunciation of the russian language. In Polish, my city is still written as Kijow, including on old maps. Recently, I found a written mention of the name of the city as Kijof in an American book of the mid-19th century The World in the Middle Ages. By the way, curious about the date of publication of the book, written in Latin - to the question of the existence in the early 19th century of a single state based on paganism and the Latin language with Latin numerals. By the way, it is also noteworthy that in Ukraine "paganism" is always understood exactly by the local national deities, the Roman and Greek pantheon is rarely referred to as paganism, calling it simply antiquity. However, I will not go much beyond the initial topic.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)


----------



## Nick Weech (Jul 28, 2022)

perception said:


> Peking vs Beijing is the same word 北京 written with two different transliteration systems.
> Peking - Wade–Giles - Wikipedia
> Beijing - Pinyin - Wikipedia


Who suggested this change, approved it and why?


----------

