# Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany



## Silveryou (Jun 9, 2022)

Stefano Bonsignori and Ignazio Danti were two central Italian cartographers from the sixteenth century. Their maps are located in Palazzo Vecchio, Florence.

About these maps it is officially said: “Of the 53 maps eventually completed, 30 were painted by Dominican friar Egnazio Danti (1564-1575) and 23 by Olivetan monk Stefano Bonsignori (1575-1586). Twenty-seven were taken from Ptolemy's _Geographia_ (2nd century AD) though they were updated to reflect contemporary writing, while the others, including those of America, were taken from a variety of more recent sources.”
(Hall of Geographical Maps)

Here the links for the majority of the maps:
Stefano Bonsignori - Google Arts & Culture
Ignazio Danti - Google Arts & Culture

In this thread I’m going to translate as best as possible all the captions contained in their maps, which told a history quite different from the one told nowadays, be it correct or not. I will sometimes specify where I am not sure about the translation or whether there’s something interesting to say.

We start with the map titled ‘La Germania’ by Stefano Bonsignori.




​_It is not to believe that people of so noble a Province _(Provincia)_ such as Germania _(Germany)_, handed down from the great father Noah _(Padre Noe)_ to his dearest and youngest son Tuisto _(Tuiscone)_, lived as grossly as their enemies the Romans _(Romani)_ described. The Romans, not less than the Greeks _(Greci)_, tried to destroy the ancient history of the other nations as much as their governments in order to enrich and honour themselves. Who is going to believe that the very stingy Romans spent so much money, lost so much time and shed so much blood without hoping for any prize? The Germans _(Germani)_ lived peacefully, within their limits, defended by huge rivers, the extremely harsh mountains _(alpe)_, a very dangerous sea, following their ancient laws and saintly habits. But when they grew in number they used to send out colonies, like the Cimbri_ (Cimbri)_, the Goths _(Gotti)_, the Vandals _(Vandali)_, the Alans _(Alani)_, the Franks _(Franconi)_, the Langobards _(Longobardi)_, the Huns _(Vnni)_ and others who got Spain _(Spagna)_, France _(Francia)_, Italy _(Italia)_ and other provinces very busy, in order to expand their borders with the good orders of battle and then keeping them with caution, since they don’t want to serve others than themselves in their own territory. And they are very loyal to their own kind and also towards their allies. And since they are like brothers to each other, they left the name Teutons _(Teutoni)_ and took that of Germans, and they have kept it._



Tuisto is in my opinion just the 'latinisation' of the word 'deutch' despite the explanations given on the wiki (Tuisto - Wikipedia). In modern Italian deutch people are called 'tedeschi'. So according to the caption the deutch people descended form a guy called Deutch who was the son of Noah. The wiki says the history of this biblical association was quite recent and attributed to a monk named Annio da Viterbo (Annio da Viterbo - Wikipedia). Tuisto was subsequently identified with Ashkenaz, son of Gomer, by James Anderson (c. 1679/1680 – 1739). Anderson is best known for his association with Freemasonry. (James Anderson (Freemason) - Wikipedia)

So I have two questions:
1. were deutch people really descended from Noah?
2. why should I believe in the identification of Deutch (Tuisto) with Ashkenaz, which apparently happened only in the 18th century?

Btw, the wiki on Annio da Viterbo is super-interesting since he is depicted as a fraud but at the same time talked about a different kind of history. It seems like they decided to censor his point of view!


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## BusyBaci (Jun 9, 2022)

I do like your posts, Silveryou. You know I would always like this kind of posts you make. But.
How could you explain that there is no Italic peninsula in the map you're showing us? The north of Europe is missing also. No Norway, no Sweden, no Finland. And what's up with the Franks up to now day Netherlands and Belgium.

But just wait, there is more to it. In the Balkans peninsula, Dardania, Bosnia, Ceraunij and Croatia are really off set from what we know today, their out of place and being shifted in the Europe map.

And what's up with Norvegia? Is it called Dacia now including Denmark and linked to Teutonia? And why Eastern Europe stretching up to now day Russia likely, it's not being depicted in this map? What's the problem showing St. Petersburg and Moscow? They were important urban centers after all. The map descriptions are not in Latin language, those are in Italian.

I wonder why.


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## Silveryou (Jun 9, 2022)

You are too impatient. This is the first map of a series...

modern Italian language is first and foremost derived from Tuscan and these maps were done by Tuscans. I chose to call them Italians in order to be more comprehensible even though no one in that epoch dreamed and no one wanted a unified Italy, with the possible exception of the Pope.


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## BusyBaci (Jun 9, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> modern Italian language is first and foremost derived from Tuscan and these maps were done by Tuscans. I chose to call them Italians in order to be more comprehensible even though no one in that epoch dreamed and no one wanted a unified Italy, with the possible exception of the Pope.


I understand you point of view. All I want is a better understanding and explanation of the map, the sources you provided are a lot in the old side of history spectrum.


Silveryou said:


> About these maps it is officially said: “Of the 53 maps eventually completed, 30 were painted by Dominican friar Egnazio Danti (1564-1575) and 23 by Olivetan monk Stefano Bonsignori (1575-1586). Twenty-seven were taken from Ptolemy's _Geographia_ (2nd century AD) though they were updated to reflect contemporary writing, while the others, including those of America, were taken from a variety of more recent sources.”


My questions are related to the geography of the dry land above the waters, because those coastlines are really interesting. Please, don't take my questions as an argument against you post. I already said that I like you post. But, I do have already plenty of maps which are weird for their time, and I'm wondering if I could post them, without upsetting other members or the already established line of history.
Your post is good, all I want from you is if you could explain the incongruousness with our maps regarding population and nation establishment with the map you showed already to us. If there are more maps you have, that's better.

But please, be advised, there will more questions from us that read it, and those questions will be in a constructive way.


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## Silveryou (Jun 9, 2022)

But I don't have answers, at least not definitive answers. So maybe you can develop your own thoughts, possibly one at a time if you want to know what I think about it.

I'm not well acquainted with the historical geography of these places. The only thing it seems out of place is Prussia above Podilia (Podolia), a certain Rascia whose name is similar to Russia corresponding more or less with modern Serbia, the Ceraunij mountains which arrive in Bosnia/Croatia rather than be isolated in Albania (I know you want to talk about that, LOL) and the usual name Dacia for the Jutland. Maybe there's more!

Didn't check the cities (there's too much) but I know that modern Bratislava was Pressburg, as shown on the map.

edit: well, I don't know if Podilia is Podolia because there's also a Pars Podalie on the map.


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## Silveryou (Jun 10, 2022)

Second map without a title (but it’s Chile and Argentina with the Magellan Strait) by Stefano Bonsignori.




_This strait took the name of Strait of Magellan_ (Magaglianes) _from its first discoverer, who, after facing many dangers, once he crossed said strait, reached the Molucca_ (moluche)_ islands. It was found again by Captain Juan Sebastián Elcano_ (Gio batista Cano)_, who passed through this strait with the ship Victoria_ (Vittoria)_. These were the first who passed there. This strait is 110_ (CX) _leagues in lenght while its width varies. In this province there is no notable thing, no written memory and very few information about it. This territory is owned by the catholic King Philip of Austria_ (Re Filippo d’Austria)_._



Here it is said that Juan Sebastián Elcano (Juan Sebastián Elcano - Wikipedia) found the strait a second time after Magellan on board of the Victoria. The wiki says he was on board of the Victoria during the first expedition and died in the Pacific during the second. A mistake on Bonsignori’s part or a different story to be told?

edit: The map shows two lakes side by side with Rio de la Plata on the right. But one of the two lakes is called _Titicacha_, the famous lake in Peru/Bolivia! These lakes seem to correspond to modern day Lago Salinas Grandes (or Lago Salinas de Ambargasta, or both) and Laguna Mar Chiquita, both in modern day Argentina.





​About modern Lake Titicaca the wiki says (Lake Titicaca - Wikipedia): 'Given the lack of a common name for Lake Titicaca in the 16th century, the Spaniards are thought to have used the name of the site of the most important indigenous shrine in the region, _thakhsi cala_ on the Isla del Sol, as the name for the lake. In time and with usage, this name developed into _Titicaca. _Locally, the lake goes by several names.'

Is this 'explanation' viable? Expecially seeing how the nearby lake was called _Titicaza _on the map. Another _Isla _there too? Possibly _de la Luna_?


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## Randolph C. (Jun 10, 2022)

BusyBaci said:


> Now you kind of lost me. My questions regarding the map were general and wide spread out in geography. I did point out many incogruencies with our days maps, but you think that my objections has nationalistic flavor. No. Why should I? As much as I wold like to point out something about my country there, why should I do it, when there is a whole Italic peninsula missing in your map. Don't you think that is important, or did that just slipped through your logic and you focused on my potential intentions which are not the case here?
> 
> Hello!
> There is no Italy.
> ...


Why should there be Italy on a map of GERMANIA? If you look closely, you see that "Parte d'Italia" is indicated at the bottom of the map, but without detail, west of the "Mare Adriaticum", where it is supposed to be. Parts of modern Italy, at that time under German Imperial rule, are depicted in detail, like South Tyrol and the entire coast line up to Trieste. I am sure there is a detailed map of Italy to follow in this thread. Concerning the city names I just checked some parts of Germany and am amazed at the level of detail, there are even small settlements that can't have had much more than a few thousand inhabitants at the time indicated.


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## dreamtime (Jun 10, 2022)

The map implies that all of those modern European countries like Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, Poland, Hungary, etc. were part of ancient Germania, and simply names for german provinces.

The Ashkenaz connection can already be found in work by Matthias Quad (1557–1613). According to "Diskurse der Gelehrtenkultur in der Frühen Neuzeit", he writes:

_Ascenas who is called Tuiscon_​_The same was the son of Gomer._​_Whom Japheth after the deluge gave birth_​​Regarding "Padre Noe" - is it possible, that the original meaning was simply something like "Our Father"? _Noe _and _Nos _are similar.



Stefano Bonsignori said:


> _The Romans, not less than the Greeks _(Greci)_, tried to destroy the ancient history of the other nations as much as their governments in order to enrich and honour themselves._



This is an impressive quote that directly references the Vatican forgery operation of the Renaissance.

While the usual narrative is that these kind of maps refer to the time of Ptolemy, I think what they really show is the old world pre-reset before the Fall of the Roman Empire, for example. So it makes sense that this map was published in the 16th century, in the century after the Fall of Rome.



Randolph C. said:


> Why should there be Italy on a map of GERMANIA? If you look closely, you see that "Parte d'Italia" is indicated at the bottom of the map, but without detail, west of the "Mare Adriaticum", where it is supposed to be. Parts of modern Italy, at that time under German Imperial rule, are depicted in detail, like South Tyrol and the entire coast line up to Trieste. I am sure there is a detailed map of Italy to follow in this thread. Concerning the city names I just checked some parts of Germany and am amazed at the level of detail, there are even small settlements that can't have had much more than a few thousand inhabitants at the time indicated.



It even has the city I grew up in with around 10k inhabitants today. And back then in 1600, population was only 1,000 people according to official history.


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## Silveryou (Jun 11, 2022)

This is going to be interesting for the few people interested in history on stolenhistory. Third map titled ‘L’Egitto’ by Stefano Bonsignori.



​_Saturn_ (Saturno)_, namely Ham_ (Cam) _called Camese, the youngest son of Noah_ (Noe) _of those born before the flood, was the First King_ (P° Re) _of the very noble and famous Province_ (Provincia) _of Egypt_ (Egitto)_, in which since the beginning all sciences and good arts flourished, sciences and arts which all the other Provinces took up claiming to be the inventors. This Province was not ruled by an absolute monarchy as the other ones but was ruled by more people, which moderated the royal actions for certain definite periods, and this government was called Dynasty_ (Dinastia) _or Potentate_ (Potetato)_, which at first changed frequently. Later however those rulers, seduced by the well-being, began to stay more time in power sometimes even without a King. But during the 25th_ (XXV) _dynasty the Ethiopians_ (Etiopi)_ killed King Bocchoris_ (Boccoro)_ and occupied Egypt. Afterwards it was freed and then taken back and kept by the Persians_ (Persi) _during the 27th_ (XXVII) _dynasty, until it passed under Alexander the Great _(Alessandro il Grande) _when he subdued them, whose successors left the title of Pharaohs_ (Faraoni) _behind and called themselves Ptolemies_ (Tolemei)_. These ruled not only upon most of Africa_ (Affrica)_, but also upon the island of Cyprus_ (Cipri) _and Phoenicia_ (Fenicia)_, until the Romans _(Romani) _took Egypt and reduced it into a Province. But it was taken away from them in the time of Emperor Heraclius_ (Eraclio Imperadore) _by the Arabs_ (Arabi) _and Saracens_ (Saracini)_, who brought it back under one Prince_ (Principe) _called Sultan_ (Sultano)_ by them. But Selim _(Selimo)_, great Lord of the Turks_ (Signore dei Turchi)_, obtained it and turned it into a Province during the rulership of the Emperor Maximilian_ (Massimiliano)_. The Sultans put out the ancient nobility and virtue of this land, but the superb pyramids still bear testimony to its greatness and power. And its inhabitants still enjoy the extraordinary fertility of the soil due to the Nile_ (Nilo)_, that every year inundates the entire country. Since it becomes very capacious due to its springs being located beyond the equinoctial in those places where it’s winter during the month of June_ (Giugno)_, the Nile was called Ocean_ (Occeano)_, after Ocean son of Noah, and the Province was called Aeria, which took a different name after its King Egypt. Contiguous to Egypt is the Province of Marmarica, fertile near the sea and barren elsewhere, celebrated for the famous temple of the great Jupiter Ammon_ (Gioue Ammone)_, to which the whole world longs for*** an answer from its oracle._

* I'm not sure if the author meant this verb in the present or past tense. The word is _concor_, with a sort of 'crescent' upon the _r_. I will eventually add something if I encounter again this symbol pointing to one solution or the other, since the way I translated implies the temple was still used in the XVI century.



There are many things to say here, but the most important is probably the one about the egyptian dynasties. I didn’t expect that a map from the XVI century would somewhat confirm what Velikovsky said in his ‘Ages in Chaos’. There he stated that egyptian history was shorter than what commonly believed (this is not stated in the map obviously) because many of the various pharaohs actually lived and reigned in the same period of time upon various parts of Egypt.
Here I think the explanation, whatever the original source was, is even more convincing. The ‘dynasties’ were not the succession of pharaohs related by blood. A ‘dynasty’ was a government, and one which was elected in its components at first!
The only example that comes to my mind is that of current Italy, where we not officially had a ‘first republic’ from the end of WW2 to the fall of the Soviet Union and a ‘second republic’ from the Soviet Union untill now. Someone not-not-officially says a third one started these years (and I think they are right).
If I have to give an historical parallel to this system of power, where an unelected King was ‘supported’ by a government, Magna Charta England comes to mind, where the government was already composed of ereditary nobles. Another example could be the Roman Empire, where the emperor was supported by a Senate.
Whatever is the explanation these ‘dynasties’ probably coincided with the so-called priestly caste of ancient Egypt, drawing a parallel between this caste and the strange similarity in terminology between the Roman senate and the Christian clergy offices. A caste of priests-senators-nobles.
It seems that this caste managed to survive the various changes in rule of the Egyptian history, since dynasties survived after the Ethiopian conquest or the Persian one. But it was apparently ended by Alexander or his successors. What happened?

Aside this, another relevant thing is that the Nile was called Ocean (another son of Noah!!!). This could lead to some heavy confusion in terms of geography. Not going to expand my thoughts here though.

And last but not least, here Ham is said to be Noah’s youngets son before the Flood, implying many others after it! How could Bonsignori, who was a monk, be so ignorant. Why were there so many priests telling another story back then? Was the Bible really _Jewish_?


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## asatiger1966 (Jun 11, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> But I don't have answers, at least not definitive answers. So maybe you can develop your own thoughts, possibly one at a time if you want to know what I think about it.
> 
> I'm not well acquainted with the historical geography of these places. The only thing it seems out of place is Prussia above Podilia (Podolia), a certain Rascia whose name is similar to Russia corresponding more or less with modern Serbia, the Ceraunij mountains which arrive in Bosnia/Croatia rather than be isolated in Albania (I know you want to talk about that, LOL) and the usual name Dacia for the Jutland. Maybe there's more!
> 
> ...



 Maps especially old ones are subject to change and quite rapidly. After the planet was hit by the object up north of present day Alaska the gods had to either abandon the planet, because the wobble was shattering earth into pieces or make an attempt to stop the wobble. They started moving land masses around to stabilize it. This happened often, this activity always created losers and winners.

The next phase was to install a system of energy bands that would help repel objects that might be attracted to the wobbles magnet - electro pull. Again these manipulations took time and different methods were used over that period. You are living on a planet that still has issues with survivability , we are a work in progress.

The planet can heal itself giving enough of certain vibrations at select frequencies. The Pyramids were one such adaptation out of many.

IMO, IMO


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## Silveryou (Jun 11, 2022)

dreamtime said:


> The Ashkenaz connection can already be found in work by Matthias Quad (1557–1613). According to "Diskurse der Gelehrtenkultur in der Frühen Neuzeit", he writes:
> 
> _Ascenas who is called Tuiscon
> The same was the son of Gomer.
> Whom Japheth after the deluge gave birth_


Good to know. Wikipedia being wikipedia as always. But my concern remains. Tuiscon is clearly a latinisation of 'deutch', which is reflected in the Italian 'tedesco'. You can see that 'tedesco' is the messed up version of 'deutch'. It makes sense, whether true or not, that the ancestor of the deutch people was called Deutch. It makes more sense than to say it was Ashkenaz!
Saying that Ashkenaz was son of Gomer and Gomer was in some way the one who gave Germany its name is not an explanation at all. It makes more sense that Deutch people acquired the new name 'Germans' in order to show their brotherhood. 'Hermano' means 'brother' in Spanish, so it fits more with the explanation than the Jew Gomer supposedly coming from the Middle-East.



dreamtime said:


> Regarding "Padre Noe" - is it possible, that the original meaning was simply something like "Our Father"? _Noe _and _Nos _are similar.


We in Italy use Noè as a proper name for Noah. I remember the word 'nos' means 'we' in Latin, rather than 'our', which was expressed by the word 'noster', reflected in the Italian 'nostro'. So I don't know!



dreamtime said:


> This is an impressive quote that directly references the Vatican forgery operation of the Renaissance.
> 
> While the usual narrative is that these kind of maps refer to the time of Ptolemy, I think what they really show is the old world pre-reset before the Fall of the Roman Empire, for example. So it makes sense that this map was published in the 16th century, in the century after the Fall of Rome.


Hard to tell the date. What I see on this map and also in the biography of that certain Annio da Viterbo of which I talked in the OP, is that Tuscans were fierce enemies of the Romans and they therefore pushed their own narrative. It seems logical that this point of view was defeated and subsequently neglected. I've come across multiple renaissance works which are litterally 'pagan', despite talking about biblical matters in a way that just one or two centuries after their epoch would be considered heretic.


Another thing to add. We are three maps in and we already have:
1. Tuisto being the last of Noah's sons (FALSE)
2. Ham being the last of Noah's sons before the Flood (implying he had more after - FALSE)
3. Ocean another of Noah's sons (FALSE)

Where did these guys took their infos? Are we supposed to believe they made up everything and managed to believe it despite their bibles under their noses telling a different story?

edit: Where is the tale of the crossing of the Red Sea and the Jews freed by Moses? It is supposed to be one of the most important biblical events in history and egyptian history in particular. Bonsignori was a monk. How could he omit it?


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## BusyBaci (Jun 11, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Good to know. Wikipedia being wikipedia as always. But my concern remains. Tuiscon is clearly a latinisation of 'deutch', which is reflected in the Italian 'tedesco'. You can see that 'tedesco' is the messed up version of 'deutch'. It makes sense, whether true or not, that the ancestor of the deutch people was called Deutch. It makes more sense than to say it was Ashkenaz!
> Saying that Ashkenaz was son of Gomer and Gomer was in some way the one who gave Germany its name is not an explanation at all. It makes more sense that Deutch people acquired the new name 'Germans' in order to show their brotherhood. 'Hermano' means 'brother' in Spanish, so it fits more with the explanation than the Jew Gomer supposedly coming from the Middle-East.


I do agree with Silveryou with the name of _"Gomer"_, that word in Albanian it is the plural of _"donkie"_, I doubt a group of people would call themselves with that denomination, unless it's being used on purpose by another group in a derogatory way. The _"Hermanos"_ way of describing the Germans makes much more sense and it's closer phonetically speaking.

It's interesting to note the end of the map's description. It mentions the Great Temple of _"Gioue Ammone"_, do they really meant _"the young_ _Amon-Ra"? _Even though Giove is meant for Jupiter. The map itself implies that the territory of North Africa is already a desert, it's being described in many topological denominations of the geography. But it raises many questions regarding the timeline of Alexander the Great and Eraclio or Heracles as an Imperator having to do something with the under earth, before the Romans took over Egypt, I'm not really able to translate it, I'm confused.


Randolph C. said:


> Why should there be Italy on a map of GERMANIA? If you look closely, you see that "Parte d'Italia" is indicated at the bottom of the map, but without detail, west of the "Mare Adriaticum", where it is supposed to be. Parts of modern Italy, at that time under German Imperial rule, are depicted in detail, like South Tyrol and the entire coast line up to Trieste. I am sure there is a detailed map of Italy to follow in this thread. Concerning the city names I just checked some parts of Germany and am amazed at the level of detail, there are even small settlements that can't have had much more than a few thousand inhabitants at the time indicated.


That was a mistake by my part, I wasn't paying enough attention to it, that confused me. I apologize.


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## Silveryou (Jun 11, 2022)

About the temple of Jupiter Ammon, I went to the wiki page of the Siwa Oasis, where the ancient temple was placed . They say this one below was the temple...



​... but the old town is dominated by the usual-unusual strange looking 'hill'!


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## BusyBaci (Jun 11, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> About the temple of Jupiter Ammon, I went to the wiki page of the Siwa Oasis, where the ancient temple was placed . They say this one below was the temple...
> 
> View attachment 23226​... but the old town is dominated by the usual-unusual strange looking 'hill'!
> 
> View attachment 23227View attachment 23228​


Very strange indeed. It looks what a melted multi stories building would look like, if it was destroyed and the floors collapsed over each-other in the absence of the supporting columns. And the village itself it looks like it's made of the same material as the hill, just it's bombarded and reduced to ruble. Only one minaret tower has survived close to that 2-stories square building, I wonder if that building was the template for the other houses or what ever that net-urban village thing was.

It's interesting to note the potentially mined hills in the background, they all share the same height above ground.


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## Silveryou (Jun 11, 2022)

BusyBaci said:


> Very strange indeed. It looks what a melted multi stories building would look like, if it was destroyed and the floors collapsed over each-other in the absence of the supporting columns. And the village itself it looks like it's made of the same material as the hill, just it's bombarded and reduced to ruble. Only one minaret tower has survived close to that 2-stories square building, I wonder if that building was the template for the other houses or what ever that net-urban village thing was.


Yes I believe it's highly possible. The Wise Up dude on YT continuously talks about these things and possibly others too (don't know about the wood part). There's something similar in Italy in the town of Terracina, where according to an illustrated book from 1835 by Alexis-François Artaud de Montor the Palace of Theodoric the Great was located (1835 - Book Illustrations: Alexis-François Artaud de Montor). Similar 'melt-down' or 'collapsed' structures (or whatever they were and whatever happened).

edit: Oh! And above the structure in Terracina they say there was a temple to Jupiter Anxur (Tempio di Giove Anxur - Wikipedia). Isn't it funny?


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## BusyBaci (Jun 11, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Yes I believe it's highly possible. The Wise Up dude on YT continuously talks about these things and possibly others too (don't know about the wood part). There's something similar in Italy in the town of Terracina, where according to an illustrated book from 1835 by Alexis-François Artaud de Montor the Palace of Theodoric the Great was located (1835 - Book Illustrations: Alexis-François Artaud de Montor). Similar 'melt-down' or 'collapsed' structures (or whatever they were and whatever happened).
> 
> edit: Oh! And above the structure in Terracina they say there was a temple to Jupiter Anxur (Tempio di Giove Anxur - Wikipedia). Isn't it funny?


I've followed _"Wise Up"_ channel for quite a while and I do admit, his analytical engineering skills are spot on, he has some very good ideas about what mounds could be, those are just collapsed domes structures without the supporting pillars. He's good, his problem is only his possessive attitude, other than that he's right on topic. You don't have much to look for these type of structures, just take a look at Gallipoli star fort city or Amalfi coast to witness the same type of destruction as below.






1.Gallipoli;  2.Amalfi Coast bridge.​
And I do confirm it, I've been graduated in the Army's Road & Railway Engineering Academia. What we use today, is poorly done than in the past, they had better cement and concrete blends and steel than today. Our engineering skills have degraded, except for computation in hardware and software developments, these are the areas we shine today.

Regarding the Africa map, I've spotted many areas describing: Mastiti Populi, Nitrioti Populi, Asiti Populi, Ezari Populi, Avgili Populi, Apetomiti Populi, Aniriti Populi Pto, Bassachiti Populi Pto, there is even a Menelau town.

I wonder who these people were, because I've never encountered these different tribes or populations before. The _"Pto"_ ending in some of the towns I guess comes from Ptolemeu, a friend and a general in Alexander the Great army ruling over Alexandria and maybe regions close to it. Because he was blessed to rule those lands by Alexander after he conquered them, this is how the MSM narrative goes.

It's really interesting to know these people.


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## Silveryou (Jun 11, 2022)

BusyBaci said:


> Regarding the Africa map, I've spotted many areas describing: Mastiti Populi, Nitrioti Populi, Asiti Populi, Ezari Populi, Avgili Populi, Apetomiti Populi, Aniriti Populi Pto, Bassachiti Populi Pto, there is even a Menelau town.
> 
> I wonder who these people were, because I've never encountered these different tribes or populations before. The "Pto" ending in some of the towns I guess come from Ptolemeu, the friend and a general in Alexander the Great army ruling over Alexandria and maybe regions close to it. Because he was blessed to rule those lands by Alexander after he conquered them, these is how the MSM narrative goes.
> 
> It's really interesting to know these people.


Most of these peoples' names (if not all) derive from Claudius Ptolemy's 'Geographia'.

I knew what 'pto' meant, but now I don't remember and I cannot come up with any word whatsoever. It's the abbreviation of some Italian word for sure, so it's not Ptolemy, since that name was already used in the main text as 'Tolemei'.

edit: There's also a _Betlemes _town East of Cairo.



Silveryou said:


> a certain Rascia whose name is similar to Russia corresponding more or less with modern Serbia


It seems that Rascia was in fact the name of the territory which became Serbia (Rascia - Wikipedia).


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## BusyBaci (Jun 11, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Most of these peoples' names (if not all) derive from Claudius Ptolemy's 'Geographia'.
> 
> I knew what 'pto' meant, but now I don't remember and I cannot come up with any word whatsoever. It's the abbreviation of some Italian word for sure, so it's not Ptolemy, since that name was already used in the main text as 'Tolemei'.
> 
> edit: There's also a _Betlemes _town East of Cairo.


Now, this map of Africa is weird. The town of _"Betlehem"_ you mention I think is being read either of as _"Betsemes" _or _"Betfemes"_, this is the rule being applied to reading this map in Italian language. But I did spot so many other weird things, like the town on top of the map description quadrant, right side, the lake of _"Laccio Palude"_, I wonder who the Lazzio football fans are cheering for. There are strange town names also like _"Bianchi Camini"_, _"Palema"_=Palermo, _"Augilla"_=Aquila, _"Mezzu Villa"_, _"Migione"_=Minchoni hahaha. There seem to be many towns named in south Italian dialect, this is weird.

I'll take a good look at Germany's map tomorrow. I'm sure I'll be surprised even there.


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## Silveryou (Jun 11, 2022)

BusyBaci said:


> The town of _"Betlehem"_ you mention I think is being read either of as _"Betsemes" _or _"Betfemes"_, this is the rule being applied to reading this map in Italian language.


Oh yes you are right. So maybe it's the biblical Beit Shemesh (Beit Shemesh - Wikipedia)!



BusyBaci said:


> There are strange town names also like _"Bianchi Camini"_, _"Palema"_=Palermo, _"Augilla"_=Aquila, _"Mezzu Villa"_, _"Migione"_=Minchoni hahaha. There seem to be many towns named in south Italian dialect, this is weird.


hehe it seems all these places had some translation in the Italian language for the maps of the period, not only on this map.


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## Silveryou (Jun 12, 2022)

Fourth map titled ‘La Francia’ by Stefano Bonsignori.



​_France_ (Francia) _once called transalpine Gaul _(Gallia transalpina) _was divided into Comata and Bracata. Comata was divided in Belgica, Celtica, also called Lugdunensis_ (Luddunese)_, and Aquitaine_ (Aqtania)_. Bracata was also called Narbonensis_ (Narbonese)_. It took the name Gaul from Celtus_ (Galate) _son of Egyptian Hercules_ (Ercole Egizzio)_, or from the Gauls_ (Galli)_ first inhabitants of that land, so called by the Arameans_ (Aramei) _and the Hebrews_ (Ebrei)_, because they ran into danger due to the waters of the flood. Parts of Belgica are France_ (Francia)_, Picardy _(Pidcardia)_, Flanders_ (Fiandra)_, Brabant_ (Brabant)_, Holland_ (Olanda)_, Lorraine_ (Loreno) _and Champagne _(Campaigne)_. Parts of Celtica are Normandy_ (Normadia)_, Brittany_ (Bretagna)_, Burgundy_ (Borgoga)_, Nivernais_ (Niuernois)_, Bourbonnais_ (Borbonois)_, Poitou_ (Pictou)_, Limousin_ (Limosin)_, Saintonge_ (Saiton)_, Auvergne_ (Auuerge)_, Perigord_ (Perigort)_, Angoumois_*** (Lecaux)_, Berry_ (Berri) _and Gévaudan_ (Geuondai****)_. Parts of Aquitaine are Guyenne_ (Guiene) _and Gascony_ (Gascogne)_. Parts of the Narbonensis are Savoy_ (Sauoia)_, Dauphiné_ (Dalfinato)_, Provence_ (Provenza) _and Languedoc _(Lingadoch)_. In its entirety it was called France after the Franks_ (Francoi)_, who under Pharamond _(Feramondo) _came here to live._

* Not sure this is the correct translation for this region. The Lecaux region appears where Angoumois is located in all the maps of France I've seen. Don't know why it is called _Lecaux _here.

** Should be the ancient region of _Gévaudan_ (Gévaudan - Wikipedia).



It would be natural to expect more historical informations about France and instead we have a description of the various regions and nothing more. The only exception is quite interesting though and must be added to the already long series of definitions of the word ‘gaul’. Here Bonsignori gives us two options, showing how the problem was already felt back then.

On one hand the Gauls descended from their eponymous ancestor Celtus (or Galate - Celtus - Wikipedia), who was said to be the son of the Egyptian Heracles. There’s no insight about who this Hercules from Egypt could really be. Today there’s no distinction between the various Herculeses, but it seems at the time they were considered separate individuals.

On the other hand, and way more interesting, possibly due to the fact that we don’t really know who this Hercules was supposed to be, is the Hebrew/Aramaic definition. The reason why these people, which supposedly lived in the Middle-East, had a definiton for the term 'Gaul' and the reason why the Gauls kept that name as their own is in itself a conundrum. Is it because the Gauls/Galatians invaded what is now modern Turkey in that not precisely established period in history that historians say it was for certain the third century before Christ? Even in that case it makes no sense according to official history.
Whatever the explanation we have to face this ‘new’ meaning of the word: ‘because they ran into danger due to the waters of the flood’ (pch haueano corso picolo dalle acque del diluuio). What does that mean? Is it possible to find some kind of word similar to ‘gaul’ in modern Hebrew that conveys a sense of danger? And what part had the Gauls in the Flood narrative?

If anybody knows something please tell me/us.


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## BusyBaci (Jun 12, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Why these people who supposedly lived in the Middle-East had a definiton for the Gauls is in itself a good conundrum. Is it becuase the Gauls/Galatians invaded what is now modern Turkey in that not precisely established period in history that historians say it was for certain the third century before Christ?


It is a good possibility that they conquered part of Anatolia (Turkey), Wiki depicts the expansion of Celtic culture as below.





_Expansion of the Celtic culture in the 3rd century BC_​I have another simple but radical possible explanation. The Gauls in Latin are called Galli, meaning roosters. And if someone is to pay attention to Roman Legionaries helms and red togas, Spartan's helms with red togas also, Athena's helm, and the famous Assyrian gods (Annunaki) their helms look all the same.






_1.Romans Leginaires;  2.Assyrian gods/demigods








3. Achilles/Spartan in Greek pottery;  4. Athena goddess in Vienna; 5. Lady Liberty in New York_​
They all look with the same helm in the semblance of a rooster. Could it possibly be that these people are all Gauls/Galli and history just splited them up into different empires, locations and place in time? This implies that Gauls are people who followed a single rule of law, or worshiping the same god, Athena in this case.


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## Silveryou (Jun 12, 2022)

BusyBaci said:


> I have another simple but radical possible explanation. The Gauls in Latin are called Galli, meaning roosters.



Sasyexa told about that in his France - Biblical Israel thread (France - Biblical Israel), where he reported Alexey Khrustalyov's research. Here the main passages:


> And during the Renaissance, the strange Franks for some reason began to associate the word "Gaul" with the word "rooster" and even made the latter a symbol of Gaul, not realizing that this is just an homonymy of gallus (in Latin means both a Gaul and a rooster).





> To begin with, let's turn to Fasmer's dictionary and find in it the Old Russian word *гологолить* (gologolit‘): "to talk", Old Slavonic глаголъ (glagol) "word", глаголати "to speak", Czech hlahol "talk, speech", hlaholiti "to sound, to proclaim".
> 
> The double root seems to be related to the word голос (voice) and Middle Irish gall "glory; swan", Cymraeg galw "to call", Old Icelandic kalia "to call, to sing", Upper-Middle German kaizen, kelzen "to talk, to boast"; see Thorpe 41; Elquist 1, 435; Holthausen, Awn. Wb. 148; Berneker 1, 323; Meye - Vayan 31. A comparison with the Old Indian gargaras "type of a musical instrument" or Old Indian ghargharas "thundering, gurgling, noise" (see Berneker 1, 320; Meyer, Et. 229) is doubtful, because here “g” is of Indo-European origin, as in the Greek γαργαρίζω "gurgle". Hardly a better comparison with the Old Icelandic gala "to sing" (see галдётъ и галитъся), as well as with Armenian gai. galium "strepito, susurro" (from *ghl-ghl-); see Petersson, ArArmSt. 99.





> Ukrainian голос, Belarusian голас, Old Slavonic гласъ φωνη, Bulgarian гласът, Serbo-Croatian niâc, Slovenian glâs, Czech. hlas, Polish glos, Upper-Sorbian hiös, Lower-Sorbian gîos. || Formation of -so is similar to Lithuanian garsas "sound", Old Indian bhäsä "speech, language", Lithuanian balsas "voice": bilti "to speak|| Middle Ossetian yalas "voice" (Hubschman, Osset. Et. 33), further, Old Icelandic kalia "to shout, to speak", Irish gall (*galno-) "famous", Cymraeg galw "to call, to summon"; see Fortunatov, AfslPh 4, 578; Berneker 1, 323; Trautman, BSW 77; Thorpe 42; Meyer, MSL 14, 373; Persson 852 (according to which, correlation to Latin gallus "rooster"; against see Walde - Hofm. 1, 580 and pp.); Stokes 107. Next, here is нагал "password".
> 
> Fasmer was unable not to point out the kinship of the Russian golos and the Latin gallus (rooster). This was above his Germanophilia and Russophobia.
> 
> Let's remember this magnificent passage and open the dictionary of Dahl, who wrote that the голосовик (golosovik) is "a bird with a good, loud voice; vocal."



I find this explanation extremely fascinating, whether it is true or not.

And the same thread shares a light, or maybe I should say a shadow, on the enigma of Gauls being those who 'ran into danger due to the waters of the flood'. Gladius, a Hebrew speaker, there talked about the possible meaning of this word in his language (France - Biblical Israel). You can see there's nothing in modern Hebrew pointing to the explanation given in the map. He cites prominent Jewish scholars such as Rashi (Rashi - Wikipedia), but nothing comes even closer to 'gaul' meaning what it's stated here. Here the passages where he mentions the various possible meanings in Hebrew:


> The Jewish book describes the results:
> "_Lothair I (806-876 A.D) inherited Italia, *and all of the GLILOT* from the North Sea, to the Rhine river, and he named that country Lotharingia, still called until this day"
> "And his brother Karlus, inherited all the country of *TSARFAT*" [France]_
> 
> ...





> The Jewish book then says, after his victory:
> _"He then built his great fortress by the Rhine,_ (Sélestat)_, which he had named after his son *- Gaal'ariom*, whom after him is named the country: *Gaal'er "געלר*", even to this day. And though, at first, the country was named Frankia, from there the French (Tsar'fatim) came *out*... ...
> .... but from that day, their names (Frankia, Tsarfat) _*were cancelled, and they were now Gaal'er."*
> 
> ...



No Jewish writer/historian apparently ever pointed to this definition of 'gaul' given by Bonsignori and attributed to the Arameans and the Hebrews. Are Jews and Hebrews the same?

But in the last paragraph, talking about "the first Jewish book to focus on the history of France, Sefer Divrei haYamim, wrritten in late 16th century by Joseph haKohen, in Avignon", Gladius adds:


> The book proceeds to describe how Noah gave birth to Japeth, who birthed Gomer, and the Franks are his sons. He jumps instantly to the late Roman period, describing the rise of Gaul. The interesting part is that he, probably, identifies the French, Spanish or the Ottomans, as directly related to hardships made on the Jews that are attributed to either the old testament period, or the early Roman period, supposedly more than a thousand years before he lived. *He seems to have no knowledge of any chronology between the flood and the rise of Rome - that's when the Gauls appear, in his words.*



"He seems to have no knowledge of any chronology between the flood and the rise of Rome - that's when the Gauls appear, in his words."

Is it possible that there was no gap in time between the 'rise of Rome' and the Flood? Is there some meaning to the Flood slightly preceding the rise of the Gauls? More info needed. @Gladius where are you? LOL


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## SMKaos (Jun 13, 2022)

Randolph C. said:


> Why should there be Italy on a map of GERMANIA? If you look closely, you see that "Parte d'Italia" is indicated at the bottom of the map, but without detail, west of the "Mare Adriaticum", where it is supposed to be. Parts of modern Italy, at that time under German Imperial rule, are depicted in detail, like South Tyrol and the entire coast line up to Trieste. I am sure there is a detailed map of Italy to follow in this thread. Concerning the city names I just checked some parts of Germany and am amazed at the level of detail, there are even small settlements that can't have had much more than a few thousand inhabitants at the time indicated.


exactly, I also was completely astonished by the tremendous amount of details. One detail is the colour and how the cities and castles were displayed. White and with lots of towers and spires...I think this community know what I want to tell. Würzburg, Koblenz and all the other german "castles" aren´t mapped/displayed as middleage castles, more than hypersophisticated cities that are ringed by a wall. Where do you live Randolph?


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## Silveryou (Jun 13, 2022)

Fifth map titled ‘Par d’Affrica nuoua, et Regno di Manicongo’ (New Part of Africa, and Kingdom of Manikongo - Manikongo - Wikipedia) by Stefano Bonsignori.



​_What reason moved Hercules_ (Ercole)_, son of Osiris Jupiter Just_ (Osiride Gioue Giusto)_, who ruled over Italy_ (Italia) _and Spain_ (Spagna)_, to prohibit the navigation beyond the strait of Gibraltar_ (Gibilterra)_, it is unknown. But it is certain that his intention was excellent, because he thought and acted for the purpose of benefiting mankind, willing to achieve eternal glory by following this path. And he didn’t fail in his scope, since still today that three thousand years have passed, Poets_ (Poeti)_, Painters_ (Pittori) _and Sculptors_ (Scultori) _write about him and depict and sculpt his feats benefiting from it. The valiant and very cautious man, who had knowledge of the places beyond said strait, considered it was wise to forbid the commerce between our people and these people, considering the different mentality and actions of each, in order that the weak and simple-minded was not mistreated by the vigorous and shrewd. And this prohibition cast altogether into oblivion the knowledge of those men and those territories. But the wish for honour, together with the desire of conquest, led the Portoguese_ (Portoghesi) _and others with their support, for about a hundred years now, to search for those places and people and disturb their peace. This in turn led the Ethiopians_ (Etiopi)_ to try to obtain supremacy not only over the inner lands but also over the coastal regions, and get rid of the Portoguese. For this reason they have move the capital from Garama to Zambare, wishing to keep these people in their usual peace, and acquaint them of their ancient, beautiful and saintly laws._



What to say about this map? Did you know Hercules was King of Italy and Spain? Is he the ‘Egyptian’ Hercules? Should be, since his father was Osiris. I’ve searched for some source in which Jupiter had the ‘Just’ nickname and found nothing. Jupiter was obviously considered the patron god of Justice, but the only similar appellation to him is the one in Rome, where he was called Jupiter Optimus Maximus.

So Hercules apparently had the possibility to erect his famous columns because he was actually the king of that land. Another more recent and sometimes legendary ruler comes to mind with that double title. But let’s cut short. We know why we are here.

_‘And this prohibition cast altogether into oblivion the knowledge of those men and those territories.’_

This is why we are here. Bonsignori credits Hercules with the disappearance of knowledge of the african territory. I wonder if it was only Africa which was cast into oblivion. Hercules was said to have travelled far across the ocean on a sort of cup-boat given to him by Helios. I wonder what countries he visited. Was that Ocean the Atlantic? Or was it the Nile, as it was stated on the map of Egypt to be one of the river's names?

Here we also have in any case a social reason for his actions, which would be probably considered ‘fasceeeest’ by the usual leftists and liberals who talk about internationalism (Internationalism (politics) - Wikipedia), globalization (Globalization - Wikipedia) and cosmopolitanism (Cosmopolitanism - Wikipedia):

_‘The valiant and very cautious man, who had knowledge of the places beyond said strait, considered it was wise to forbid the commerce between our people and these people, considering the different mentality and actions of each, in order that the weak and simple-minded was not mistreated by the vigorous and shrewd.’_

Well done Hercules, you have my respect!

But that’s not all. Bonsignori talks about the Ethiopian-Portuguese conflict with Ethiopia clearly being an important african power still in the XVI century. And something interesting is said:

_‘For this reason they have move the capital from Garama to Zambare’._

The Ethiopians apparently expanded their Empire in order to oppose the Portuguese. I couldn’t come up with a solution for what cities shouls be considered these two nowadays. The only fitting Garama should be Germa (Germa - Wikipedia), now a ruined city in modern Lybia. Its position is not very fitting with Ethiopian history though and in any case it was said to be the capital of the Garamantes, not the Ethiopians.
If anybody has a better solution, let me/us know.

When it comes to Zambare, the map clearly shows this city south of the homonymous Lake Zambare, where the Zaire river flows. Since Zaire was the previous name of the Congo river, it seems fair to assume that lake was modern Lake Tanganyika (Lake Tanganyika - Wikipedia). The smallest Lake Mweru (Lake Mweru - Wikipedia) could be a secondary option. What happened to the city of Zambare? Did it changed name? Where was it exactly located?


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## Gladius (Jun 13, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> And the same thread shares a light, or maybe I should say a shadow, on the enigma of Gauls being those who 'ran into danger due to the waters of the flood'. Gladius, a Hebrew speaker, there talked about the possible meaning of this word in his language (France - Biblical Israel). You can see there's nothing in modern Hebrew pointing to the explanation given in the map. He cites prominent Jewish scholars such as Rashi (Rashi - Wikipedia), but nothing comes even closer to 'gaul' meaning what it's stated here. Here the passages where he mentions the various possible meanings in Hebrew:
> 
> 
> But in the last paragraph, talking about "the first Jewish book to focus on the history of France, Sefer Divrei haYamim, wrritten in late 16th century by Joseph haKohen, in Avignon", Gladius adds:
> ...



Hi, thanks for mentioning my texts. It's a research angle that I had put on pause because of how confusing & time consuming it is:
1. There aren't a lot of old Hebrew books about France. Some are written in incomprehensible Hebrew or Aramaic which only trained Orthodox Jews can read. I wish I could use one guy like that but these kind of studies are heretical for them.
2. The more I read those historical Jewish-POV texts the more I feel a "need to know" vibe from them, a concept that is very out there among Jewish elites. They have these principles that we know as 'masonic' but are probably 'jewish': to blend the text with non-backed facts that are inherited and copied by the lower ranks, and purposely 'outsource' them to the gentiles to pollute their books with false information. Like in what you wrote here:



> No Jewish writer/historian apparently ever pointed to this definition of 'gaul' given by Bonsignori and attributed to the Arameans and the Hebrews. Are Jews and Hebrews the same?



They didn't point out, because it was probably whispered to him by a Jew, or he had it copied from a book made for gentiles. The non-Jews sought after such books written by Jews, from history to biology, because they did had a name for themselves as quality researchers, I just believe it mostly changed with the rise of Kaballah (14th cen.) and Sabbtai Zvi ("Saturnism", 17th cen.) which began to add 'secretive depths' to Judaism, teaching the paths of the "Secret" and the "Endless Light" and exposing Christians to it, and in order words, multiplied the levels of deception by a thousand.
In Jewish circles, there are those who are keepers of ancient secrets. This may be born out of them long serving as Kings' advisors and confidants. Many of those are what is known as Mekubal. (sort of Hebrew for 'Kabbalist'), the best of them trained from the age of 9 and 'refined' to purity until they have no ego and are able to hold secrets without ever telling them but to select few, or until the kabbalist councils decide what knowledge is permitted to be exposed.

Want to know how filtered everything we know of them is?
The founder of academic study of Kaballah (and specifically Sabbateans) is Gershom Scholem, a Jew born to a family of 'heretics', all further research done until today is based on his works. Why? Because it's obvious as day that he's the only one who got 'whitelisted' to do it. Somehow he's able to produce massive volumes of work on these subjects, first in the world, and none else can surpass it with new knowledge for many decades. You see, these people select who gets to write anything about them, including the bad stuff. Scholars innocently believe this Scholem was a 'curious boy' who pursued a passion.

So bottom line, Jews in middle ages were highly aware that the 'gnetiles want their knowledge' and they had some very smart 'spoon feeding' methods in practice. So when I'm researching this kind of thing, I don't know if I'm reading genuine perspectives or being spoon-fed by old Kabbalist trolls, so I kind of hit a dead end. But it will continue once I find new readable sources.


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## Silveryou (Jun 13, 2022)

Gladius said:


> They didn't point out, because it was probably whispered to him by a Jew, or he had it copied from a book made for gentiles.


I have some problem to entirely accept this point of view. The problem is that the presumed inaccuracy is not only about the Bible but also about classic litarature. The impression I have is that they didn't read the Bible at all. How could a learned monk like Bonsignori write that a certain Oceanus was Noah's son? Where is it written in the Bible?
They claim Annio da Viterbo (Annio da Viterbo - Wikipedia) made up some of these stories. Why no one went to check the Bible to correct him? And as I said it was not only about the Bible, so I don't know if it's a jewish psy-op, even though one could say that Annio himself was a Jew messing up ancient history!


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## Gladius (Jun 13, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> I have some problem to entirely accept this point of view. The problem is that the presumed inaccuracy is not only about the Bible but also about classic litarature. The impression I have is that they didn't read the Bible at all. How could a learned monk like Bonsignori write that a certain Oceanus was Noah's son? Where is it written in the Bible?
> They claim Annio da Viterbo (Annio da Viterbo - Wikipedia) made up some of these stories. Why no one went to check the Bible to correct him? And as I said it was not only about the Bible, so I don't know if it's a jewish psy-op, even though one could say that Annio himself was a Jew messing up ancient history!



Fairly, I have a hard time accepting with my own POV sometimes 

I can help with another angle here.

For background:
The Jews have numerous of external texts spanning centuries, purposed to clarify biblical verses, and to add more background 'lore' to everything.
That's the Rabbinical principle, that the Bible is "insufficient" and has incomplete knowledge.
There are many texts that expand on genealogies, nations and kings, some considered accurate and some fantastical. Jews even had the custom of writing books aimed at debating each other.
There are tons of Jewish books of this kind that are lost. We know of them because books that are found, mention the unfound as sources. Those books were never recreated.

*The angle is that Annio did read of this genealogy in an external Jewish book, that at the time was considered correct*.
In rabbinical Judaism, the status of renowned rabbi scholars is highly elevated, to a mythical level, almost like Saints or Prophets. In a way, they invest more energy in their books rather than the Bible itself. It's not farfetched to thing that some of the Jewish sources available to the monk writers, were elevated to be "as accurate and relevant as the Bible itself" by the theological propaganda of the time.

In short: the Bible is LOTR and he was citing from the Silmarillion


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## Silveryou (Jun 13, 2022)

Yes Gladius, it could be anything at this point with this method of descerning things. Don't want to be polemic here, just stating the fact that once a supernatural presumed knowledge and omniscience is created around a certain group, the Jews, it is consequencial that every single piece of information found in whatever text becomes 'Jewish' and therefore Jews become the ultimate judge of what is right and what is wrong, which is exactly what's happening in our modern age (not talking about you here). Certain people arrive at the point of not trusting anything and it seems to me a good point of arrival and the real objective operated with malicious intent.

So I prefer to have straightforward logic applied to things. In this case it is reported about the word 'gaul' possibly having a specific jewish meaning, thing that seems to be out of the question though. Bonsignori gives also other explanations, whether true or not. The impression I have is that he's talking, like many others, about some history which was not specifically jewish, but it became through the course of time.

I would address as a possible cause the cultural seclusion in which the jewish books were compiled and the persistent will in mantaining a racial distinction within the group. The outcome is a sort of uniqueness and deepness that seems out of the question when compared to other modern cultures. And still other cultures did exist, more ancient than the jewish one, so this kind of maps and people like Annio could very well be a window to that old culture/knowledge.
Unique literature plus money is the cocktail we drink on a daily basis.

If you ever succeed in reading that book, let me know what that quote meant!


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## BusyBaci (Jun 13, 2022)

The way Bonsignori is passing history knowledge through map's description is really unique, straight forward and captivating. The story of Heracles and other tales from _"The Iliad"_ get even better with the rest of the maps he draw and pass on with the historical events on each one of them. I won't spoil anything for the readers, I can only tell that's it's worthy understanding the course of past events. This should be really interesting. I did question my self the validity and the authenticity of the maps, or the motives and potential external influences on Bonsignori, but would be better for the conclusions to be formed at the end of the thread.

I don't know, but I have a feeling that the maps might disappear from internet because of magic. Let's download them all as soon as you Silveryou are posting them, I tried different magic tricks to download them but I couldn't succeed.


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## SMKaos (Jun 14, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Yes I believe it's highly possible. The Wise Up dude on YT continuously talks about these things and possibly others too (don't know about the wood part). There's something similar in Italy in the town of Terracina, where according to an illustrated book from 1835 by Alexis-François Artaud de Montor the Palace of Theodoric the Great was located (1835 - Book Illustrations: Alexis-François Artaud de Montor). Similar 'melt-down' or 'collapsed' structures (or whatever they were and whatever happened).
> 
> edit: Oh! And above the structure in Terracina they say there was a temple to Jupiter Anxur (Tempio di Giove Anxur - Wikipedia). Isn't it funny?


I was in Sperlonga back in 2015 and visited also the temple on the mountain in Terracina due to the fact that the wife of my brother have a flat in Sperlonga. Quite impressive view from there, especially in the night. I got attracted by these structures my whole life but couldn't explain why. Nowadays I solved plenty of the riddles of ancient civilisations and became more open minded to who have could built this. Its a bit like intuition in my opinion. Which threads we follow through this process of awakening and how information finds the way to our consciousness...let the flow of interest and fascination lead us to a future where resets can free people instead of amnesia.


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## Silveryou (Jun 14, 2022)

Sixth map titled ‘Grecia’ by Stefano Bonsignori.



​_Greece_ (Grecia) _was first called Hellas _(Ellade)_, and comprised that small piece of land which is opposite to Euboea, today called Negroponte, until it took its current name after Graecus_ (Greco)_, its ancient prince. It later expanded and had the Ionian_ (Ionio) _and Aegean_ (Egeo)_ seas as its limits. In the scientific studies and in the most noble arts it exceeded all nations, and in military valour it was inferior to no one before the greatness of the Roman_ (Romano) _empire, and it dominated many parts of Asia and Europe _(Europa)_. And even if troubled by civic discord, even if it was attacked by the Parthians_ (Parti)_, the Egyptians_ (Egitij) _and the Scythians_ (Sciti)_, it defended itsef valiantly until it was overcomed by the Romans who, grateful for the benefits received from its laws and sciences, left it in its freedom. After Constantine_ (Const.no) _moved with sinister omen the capital of the empire in Byzantium_ (Bisantio)_, renamed by him Constantinople_ (Constant.li)_, it was harassed several times by the Hungarians_ (Vngari), _Russians_*** (Rossi)_, Bulgarians _(Bulgari)_ and Saracens_ (Saracini)_. Until it was finally oppressed by the Turkish_ (Turchesca)_ tyranny, so that today nothing remains of its former glory other than the name, since the Barbarians_ (Barbari) _destroyed those ancient wonders, and every thing turned upside down both in the ancient territories of its regions and the original names_**** _of the places._

* In a previous post the term Rascia was used for the territory roughly corrsponding to modern Serbia (Rascia - Wikipedia). Therefore these Russians could be identified as Serbians, even though I don’t know why they weren’t called by their proper name!

** Another possible translation is ‘_...and the languages of those places_’, because the term possibly indicating names/languages is ‘voci’, ‘voices’ in english. They are both viable because a change in language can result in a change of names of the places.



First of all I want to address a certain pattern followed by Bonsignori when it comes to the origin of peoples. We had Tuisto (Tuisto - Wikipedia), ancestor of the Germans (Deutsch), Aegyptus (Aegyptus - Wikipedia), giving his name to Egypt, Celtus (Galate – Celtus - Wikipedia), ancestor of the Gauls and now Graecus (Graecus - Wikipedia), giving his name to Greece.
The author says the Greeks were called Hellenes, as much as the Germans were called Deutsch and the French were called Gauls. But is it true that the Hellas changed its name into Greece? It is certain that Deutsch is the original name for the Germans and in any case Tuisto is clearly the inverted ‘latinised’ spell of Deutsch. I saw French maps reporting ‘Gaul’ as the name of the country in the 16th-17th century, with Ile-de-France being the name of the region of the capital. And when it comes to Greeks it is a well established fact that this name was the Latin one, while Hellenes was the original. If that’s so then we are looking at stories crafted in a Latin environment.

What to say other than this? The rest is pretty standard. Greece is certainly one of the biggest historical question marks. There were certainly Hellenes on its shores but its history is really messed up and it’s entirely possible that not all events really happened in that time and in that place played by those actors. There’s a lot of ancient place names newly attributed to localities which bore different names ‘till few decades ago. But at the same time something really happened here, as much as Egypt and other famous countries.

That said, how could one confidently place Troy (Troia) in that position? And why Troy, if its name was Ilion?


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## SMKaos (Jun 14, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Sixth map titled ‘Grecia’ by Stefano Bonsignori.
> 
> View attachment 23279​_Greece_ (Grecia) _was first called Hellas _(Ellade)_, and comprised that small piece of land which is opposite to Euboea, today called Negroponte, until it took its current name after Graecus_ (Greco)_, its ancient prince. It later expanded and had the Ionian_ (Ionio) _and Aegean_ (Egeo)_ seas as its limits. In the scientific studies and in the most noble arts it exceeded all nations, and in military valour it was inferior to no one before the greatness of the Roman_ (Romano) _empire, and it dominated many parts of Asia and Europe _(Europa)_. And even if troubled by civic discord, even if it was attacked by the Parthians_ (Parti)_, the Egyptians_ (Egitij) _and the Scythians_ (Sciti)_, it defended itsef valiantly until it was overcomed by the Romans who, grateful for the benefits received from its laws and sciences, left it in its freedom. After Constantine_ (Constno) _moved with sinister omen the capital of the empire in Byzantium_ (Bisantio)_, renamed by him Constantinople_ (Constantli)_, it was harassed several times by the Hungarians_ (Vngari), _Russians_*** (Rossi)_, Bulgarians _(Bulgari)_ and Saracens_ (Saracini)_. Until it was finally oppressed by the Turkish_ (Turchesca)_ tyranny, so that today nothing remains of its former glory other than the name, since the Barbarians_ (Barbari) _destroyed those ancient wonders, and every thing turned upside down both in the ancient territories of its regions and the original names_**** _of the places._
> 
> ...


a really interresting side fact is that Deutsch, Teutonen, Gotisch (gothic), allemand, allemannen...nearly every word for the germans in nearly every language stands for god, godly or the men of god. Deutsch as we call ourselves comes perhaps from the latin word Deus.


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## Silveryou (Jun 14, 2022)

SMKaos said:


> Deutsch


I always forget the S... damn!


SMKaos said:


> a really interresting side fact is that Deutsch, Teutonen, Gotisch (gothic), allemand, allemannen...nearly every word for the germans in nearly every language stands for god, godly or the men of god. Deutsch as we call ourselves comes perhaps from the latin word Deus.


This is one of the most intriguing aspects to me. What I think, and I'm guessing here, is that two traditions merged and the actions of the Goths came to be known as the actions of God. A fine example is the title 'scourge of God', _flagellum dei_, applied to Attila and Totila (who are the same guy in my opinion). 'Germanic' people were mostly Arians, therefore they were not prone to an abstract God as it was apparently done by mediterranean 'christians'. In the process of conversion the very material 'Goth' could become God and then the actions of the first were comprised in the narrative of the second. Just guessing here (better to repeat it).

An interesting thing I noticed sometime ago is that the Roman emperor Vespasian was called 'rach gotes' in the Arch of Maximilian (Arch of Glory of Imperator Maximilian I). His name was Titus Vespasian: Titus, Attila, Totila?!?! Super-guessing here, but in the germanic legends about Attila it seems that Romans never appear. Am I right? How is it possible? And by the way, the name '_Etzel_' attributed to Attila is very similar to that of Attila's Roman enemy 'Flavius _Aetius_', who was a Flavian exactly like Vespasian!


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## SMKaos (Jun 14, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> I always forget the S... damn!
> 
> This is one of the most intriguing aspects to me. What I think, and I'm guessing here, is that two traditions merged and the actions of the Goths came to be known as the actions of God. A fine example is the title 'scourge of God', _flagellum dei_, applied to Attila and Totila (who are the same guy in my opinion). 'Germanic' people were mostly Arians, therefore they were not prone to an abstract God as it was apparently done by mediterranean 'christians'. In the process of conversion the very material 'Goth' could become God and then the actions of the first were comprised in the narrative of the second. Just guessing here (better to repeat it).
> 
> An interesting thing I noticed sometime ago is that the Roman emperor Vespasian was called 'rach gotes' in the Arch of Maximilian (Arch of Glory of Imperator Maximilian I). His name was Titus Vespasian: Titus, Attila, Totila?!?! Super-guessing here, but in the germanic legends about Attila it seems that Romans never appear. Am I right? How is it possible? And by the way, the name '_Etzel_' attributed to Attila is very similar to that of Attila's Roman enemy 'Flavius _Aetius_', who was a Flavian exactly like Vespasian!


 way to much "conspiracy theory" for most of the humaoids in our realm but I love to hear such guessings!!!

also, there are two so called "countries of Saint Micheal" . Jesus is according to the biblical explanation saint Micheal/ der heilige Michel in jiddisch [jewish] Language and german). These two countries are Israel and Germany. It is completely mind boggling to see that in our endtimes, if I may use the strange descriptions of bible textes in which I usually don´t believe due to the fact of their maybe unreliable heritance, the faith of these two countries collide, as we have seen since the world war starts and had never ended officially until today!

Second thing is that there was/is a dialect of german called jiddisch which can be understood by some of us germans but sounds different, a bit like dutch compared to german...only the international jewish community in the US, Russia and German Empire/third Reich/republic of Weimar spoke jiddish in the first half of last century. The other ones in the mediterranean area spoke hebrew or a dialect of that (I´m not exactly sure).

And now we, exactly as our colleagues in the north as sweden, denmark and norway (all the aryan races of europe except the russians), open our boarders with welcome gifts and have taken millions over millions refugees from the arabic region. It began with the turks in the 80ies and 90ies (6 Millions), people from syria (1,5 Mio. since 2015) and now lots of north africans, Afghanic people and others. Hundreds of NGOs payed by german tax payers make commercials and print books to help them find the way to north europe and how to get social aides...thats the reason why we had the situation at lago di Garda before a few days...I think I don´t have to explain it to you. 

The boss of our government is imaged hundreds of times with the past two to three chancellors, Bundes-presidents and finance ministers. He is called Yehuda Teichtal, and guess to which states he belongs...

And sorry for being a bit off topic, but as our predecessors vanished through ghostly hands, so the italians, germans, swedes and others will follow within the next few years and decades. We see direct in front of our eyes, how the elite manage to end empires within a few years without even leaving a doubt in the brainwashed 90 percent of the population. And if it is as easy today, how easy was it in the centuries 16th to 20th???


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## Silveryou (Jun 14, 2022)

SMKaos said:


> way to much "conspiracy theory" for most of the humaoids in our realm but I love to hear such guessings!!!


I don't know if it's conspiracy though. All those germans apparently took Roman habits, Roman military knowledge, Roman religion and even Roman clothes. This is not stuff I'm making up, it's the historians themselves that say it with images to prove it. So when I read about Etzel and other 'legendary' germanic characters, and not a word is spent about the Romans, I get the feeling that maybe they were the Romans themselves, which, as historians say, is partially true even in official history.



SMKaos said:


> And if it is as easy today, how easy was it in the centuries 16th to 20th???


New narratives are continuously created. We live in the epoch of color-blindness now upgraded into gender-blindness. At that time they had different problems. What is hidden under the term Arian is definitively not a christian priest of jewish origin. This is the bedtime tale told by christians when the damage was already done. The invasion of Europe is already called an 'immigration crisis'. This is what people are told and will pass down in history.
Color-blind people should understand how much is important to mantain their own peculiar racial character, and if they don't have one, then it's better to search for it. Slavery was the end result of conquest and destruction of the nation, color-blindness is a kind of reprogramming for the slave.

We need a new Hercules for sure.


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## Gladius (Jun 14, 2022)

SMKaos said:


> Second thing is that there was/is a dialect of german called jiddisch which can be understood by some of us germans but sounds different, a bit like dutch compared to german...only the international jewish community in the US, Russia and German Empire/third Reich/republic of Weimar spoke jiddish in the first half of last century. The other ones in the mediterranean area spoke hebrew or a dialect of that (I´m not exactly sure).



Yiddish was/is spoken by Ashkenazi Jews, from Germany to Russia. It was particularly used by Germanic or Slavic Jews.
The other Jews are the Sephardic (lit. "Spaniards") and they mainly spoke Ladino, a Romance-Jewish dialect. Ladino was spoken in France, Spain, Italy and all the way to the Balkan, Turkey, and North Africa.
Even in Northern lands such as England and Holland, Ladino was mostly spoke as Sephardic Jews migrated there.

Hebrew was not used as a spoken language in antiquity or middle ages, only by the nationalistic revival in 19th century.
Arabic Jews used local forms of Judeo Arabic dialects.


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## Silveryou (Jun 15, 2022)

Seventh map titled ‘Trogloditica’ by Stefano Bonsignori.



​_The ancients wrote few things about the Troglodytae land and so inhuman that generate horror. But it seems not to be the case, since Moses_ (Mose)_, fighting to take Meroe as a general for the Pharaoh_ (Faraone)_, and failing to capture it by force, finally took it thanks to the passionate love felt by the daughter of the King_ (Re)_ of the Troglodytae, after hearing about the reputation of his virtues. Won over by his virtues, she married him and gave him the City_ (Città)_. There cannot be cruelty where virtue itself is so strong. Some Troglodytae are faithful to the law of Christ _(X.o) _and some to that of Mohammed _(Maometto)_. They are under the rulership of the great Lord of the Ethiopian _(Sig.re degli Etiopi) _called Prester John_ (Prete Iani)_. The Portoguese_ (Portoghesi)_ took over a number of lands along these shores, some of which they still possess._



For those who don’t know where it comes from, the tale of Moses and the daughter of the King of the Ethiopians is told by Flavius Josephus in his ‘Jewish Antiquities’. But here the King of the Ethiopians becomes the King of the Throglodytae. There is no possibility that Bonsignori was confusing them with each other, since he already mentioned the Ethiopians various times. So a question arises again. Was he reporting random information without caring of what he was writing? Did some Jews suggested the wrong tale out of pure maliciousness? Was he a Jew himself and decided to trick everybody, even though nobody really cared about what he was doing and in a matter of decades everybody forgot his maps?
The only alternative is that various tales were told of that not-official event and this was one of the various versions. And by the way, did Flavius Josephus really lived in the epoch we now think he lived?

The map is first and foremost about modern Somalia and parts of Ethiopia. Meroe, traditionally placed on the Nile, is not depicted on the map, and rightly so.

‘Troglodytae’ (Troglodytae - Wikipedia) was certainly not the real name of those people, since it litterally means ‘cave dwellers’ in the Greek language. So I want to share an observation, or maybe I should say a doubt, that I have.
We know that cave dwellers were depicted on many maps more or less of the same period in the northern parts of the world, like northern Russia and Scandinavia. A thought came to my mind. What if the legendary ‘trolls’ (Troll - Wikipedia) of scandinavian folk tales were in fact 'troglodytaes'? What if the word 'troll'  itself is a contraction for 'cave dwellers'? Strangely enough, the african troglodytae evock images of club-bearing wild men (Wild man - Wikipedia) and dwarves (Dwarf (folklore) - Wikipedia) inhabiting the underground, both present in African and Scandinavian maps. I wonder if some tales originally coming from northern Europe migrated to Africa. Strabo himself talked about troglodytae in Scythia Minor, so it is clear that it was a generic term applied to people with a specific way of living, rather than (obviously) being the name of a specific african tribe.
Who knows…

And last but not least, Prester John (Prester John - Wikipedia) makes here is cameo appearance and seems to be a title more than an individual. Not much to say about that, but it could be already enough!


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## BusyBaci (Jun 15, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> _Moses_ (Mose)_, fighting to take Meroe as a general for the Pharaoh_ (Faraone)_, and failing to capture it by force,_


Now this is interesting, Moses being a general of the Pharaoh is new to me.

*Edit:* Since I found this fact interesting I added a link _"Moses, General in Egypt"_ that explains it by Flavius Josephus in his "Jewish Antiquities" as you already said.

There is the story of the black Jews of Ethiopia which some of them might have been converted to Christianity later on, they were called Kayla or Beta-Israel which is being explained in the below article. The article speculates about different ways these Jewish believers might have formed from the Jewish tribes, and their number reaching a population in a couple of millions.

_Origins of Ethiopia’s Black Jews_

Quotes:


> _They observe the Sabbath as indicated in the Torah, eat only kosher food, pray in straw-roofed synagogues, and use only unleavened bread during the seven days of Passover. Yet they also offer animals in sacrifice and have priests and deacons appointed by the community. Their neighbors call them Falashas, which means strangers, wanderers, or exiles._





> _No one knows for certain how Judaism reached this part of Africa, though today the Chief Rabbis of both the Ashkenazi and the Sephardic Jews recognize these indigenous Ethiopians, members of the Agau ethnic group, as authentic Jews. Still, many theories abound on how the Jewish faith came to these Agau tribes. Though some tend to sound far-fetched, these speculations are based on Judaic history, Scripture, and religious observance._





> _It is almost impossible that Jews were not in Ethiopia before 70 C.E. Clearly Ethiopian Jews knew nothing until recent years about either the Babylonian or Jerusalem Talmud. Their knowledge only of the earlier books of the Old Testament (until long after Christianity reached Ethiopia) and the fact that they do not celebrate such holidays as Purim suggest that they must have been cut off from the rest of Judaism much earlier._





> _Some theorists trace the Ethiopian Jews’ origins to the Exodus from Egypt, claiming that a band of Hebrews headed south rather than across the Sinai desert, ending up in Ethiopia, the land of Moses’ Cushite (Ethiopian, perhaps) wife mentioned in Numbers 12:1._



The Wiki page about Troglodytae states also different explanations for that word. I know, Wiki is not to be trusted, but many members constantly refer to it for historical events.

Quotes:


> In Herodotus​_Herodotus referred to the Troglodytae in his Histories as being a people hunted by the Garamantes in Libya. He said that the Troglodytae were the swiftest runners of all humans known and that they ate snakes, lizards, and other reptiles. He also stated that their language was unlike any known to him, and sounded like the screeching of bats.[4] Alice Werner (1913) believed (in passing) that this was a clear allusion to the early Khoisan, indigenous inhabitants of Southern Africa, because their languages contain distinctive click sounds.__[5]_





> In Diodorus​_In ancient writing, apparently the best known of the African cave-dwellers were the inhabitants of the "Troglodyte country" (Ancient Greek: Τρωγλοδυτική) on the coast of the Red Sea, as far north as the Greek port of Berenice, of whom an account was preserved by Diodorus Siculus from Agatharchides of Cnidus, and by Artemidorus Ephesius in Strabo. They were a pastoral people, living entirely on the flesh of their herds, or, in the season of fresh pasture, on mingled milk and blood.__[6]_





> _In Claudius Aelianus_​_In his work On the Characteristics of Animals, Claudius Aelianus mentions that the tribe of Troglodytae are famous and derive their name from their manner of living. He also adds that they eat snakes.[1] Furthermore, he wrote that Troglodytes believe that the king of the beasts is the Ethiopian Bull, because it possesses the courage of a lion, the speed of a horse, the strength of a bull, and is stronger than iron.[12]_



Many sources on that wiki page are implying The Red Sea, Ethiopia and South Africa etc. as possible locations for the lands of the Troglodyte.
Personally I remember that this particular name is given to people who speak in a certain way with certain vocals, sounds and phonetics, but If I'm correct, the word _"Troglodita"_ in Italian is being used in a derogatory way for people who have strange customs and behaviors different from the locals.


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## Silveryou (Jun 15, 2022)

BusyBaci said:


> I know, Wiki is not to be trusted, but many members constantly refer to it for historical events.


The problem with wiki is to blindly believe in what is reported, expecially when it comes to modern science, politics, economy etc.. But when it comes to citations from authors it *should *be reliable, at least as a reference point.



BusyBaci said:


> Personally I remember that this particular name is given to people who speak in a certain way with certain vocals, sounds and phonetics, but If I'm correct, the word _"Troglodita"_ in Italian is being used in a derogatory way for people who have strange customs and behaviors different from the locals.


'Troglodita' in Italian is synonymous to a backward not intelligent person. It is almost interchangeable with 'cavernicolo' which in fact means 'caveman' and is represented in the same way, club in hand included.
It seems that the stories about wildmen began the basis for 'modern' prehistoric cavemen. I think there's many things to dig here. There are multiple representations of wild people from the 'middle-ages'. I don't believe it's just a legend or a fable.


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## ViniB (Jun 15, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> The problem with wiki is to blindly believe in what is reported, expecially when it comes to modern science, politics, economy etc.. But when it comes to citations from authors it *should *be reliable, at least as a reference point.
> 
> 
> 'Troglodita' in Italian is synonymous to a backward not intelligent person. It is almost interchangeable with 'cavernicolo' which in fact means 'caveman' and is represented in the same way, club in hand included.
> It seems that the stories about wildmen began the basis for 'modern' prehistoric cavemen. I think there's many things to dig here. There are multiple representations of wild people from the 'middle-ages'. I don't believe it's just a legend or a fable.


Troglodita in portuguese is equal to savage or a person with no manners. According to Vatican aproved crap story is how the brazilian natives were called. Not sure yet what to make of the maps, but they are unique, can't discard the possibility of an obvious manipulation of timelines/places/events by your question of the origin of the deutch/ashkenaz.........


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## BusyBaci (Jun 15, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> 'Troglodita' in Italian is synonymous to a backward not intelligent person. It is almost interchangeable with 'cavernicolo' which in fact means 'caveman' and is represented in the same way, club in hand included.
> It seems that the stories about wildmen began the basis for 'modern' prehistoric cavemen. I think there's many things to dig here. There are multiple representations of wild people from the 'middle-ages'. I don't believe it's just a legend or a fable.


Thank you for the clarification, if the wild men stories were common during middle-ages, I'm starting to think that might be related to some kind of natural disaster during that period of time. It's very common for well educated and civil men to became savages and loose their ways in the face of famine and the total collapse of a society. I don't think they came from caves, something big must have happened to reduce them to their basic instincts.

1530: The Great Flood of Rome thread comes to mind and I think it might be related to the map of France where Bonsigniori mentions the Gauls running little from the waters of the Deluge. Was he referring to this flood? After all it happened in Rome and Netherlands in 1530, some 20 years before Bonsigniori was to compile his maps. An event like this should be fresh in his memories and will be interesting to track this fact if he mentions it in the rest of the maps.


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## Silveryou (Jun 15, 2022)

ViniB said:


> According to Vatican aproved crap story is how the brazilian natives were called.


Really? I've never heard of it. Was it in relation to living in caves or as a general name without a specific meaning?



BusyBaci said:


> I don't think they came from caves, something big must have happened to reduce them to their basic instincts.


I don't have a clear opinion about that. Various images from the middle-ages show these 'wildmen' as a different culture and they seem perfectly adapted to their lifestyle. Maybe we should search for sources talking about them to see if there's some trace of flood-stories. As far as I know there was no relation between the two but, as I said, I've not read anything about it and I have no clear opinion.


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## Sanctus Martinus (Jun 16, 2022)

On the "Gaul" topic, to me, Gaul is just another conversion, like Saul and Paul. With all three originating from Aul, which means God.

There is also Aula (Auditorium) a hall (sound, echo), a classroom. (The first classrooms ever. And who were the teachers?) Having a classrom for God would make it a church or a temple.

Aul is also spoken like All, Owl or Oil.


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## Silveryou (Jun 17, 2022)

While translating this new map I was thinking about the information on the map of Egypt (Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany). There Ham was said to be called Camese and being the youngest of Noah’s sons born after the Flood. It came now to mind the simple fact that the last of the sons of Ham was Canaan, who was the one cursed by Noah in the famous episode of the Bible. But it is said that in ‘classical antiquity’ the misnomer ‘Curse of Ham’ was attached to the ‘Curse of Canaan’ (Canaan (son of Ham) - Wikipedia). So Bonsignori says that Ham had a double name while in reality the second name, Camese, might be attributed to his youngest son Canaan. Consequently there was a double mistake with some truth to it. On one hand Cam and Camese are two different characters while on the other Camese was the last of Ham’s sons, not Noah’s. I an going to use Ham as a translation of Camese in any case.

But this once more begs the question. How could the monk Bonsignori and those who came up with these stories be so ignorant about the main text of christianity, the Bible? It seems as if Bonsignori was talking about far away traditions not really important during his time. It seems as if he himself and Annio preceding him were in fact taught these stories by somebody else and were reporting them trying to correlate them with their own stories about Graeco-Roman dieties. Was the misnomer ‘Curse of Ham’ really given during ‘classical antiquity’?

Let’s now continue, since this one coming is like a thread within a thread.



Eighth map titled ‘L’Italia’ by Stefano Bonsignori. This map has three captions: one for the Italian peninsula, one for Sicily and another for Sardinia and Corsica.




​Italian peninsula: _Gomer Gallus_ (Comero Gallo)_, son of Japheth_ (Iafet)_, was the first to obtain this kingdom by his ancestor Noah_ (Noe)_, and directed its peoples on the right path. But when Ham_ (Camese) _was driven out by the others, he came here and began to corrupt those peoples. But then Noah, also known as Janus_ (Iano)_, arrived and expelled him. Some years after his death, the Peoples_ (Popoli)_, oppressed by the Great Ones_*** (Grandi)_, called Osiris Jupiter Just_ (Osiri Gioue Giusto) _for help. He freed them and taking the name of Apis_ (Api)_, he reigned there for many years. Leaving the kingdom to Laestrygon_ (Lestrigone)_, he went back to Egypt_ (Egitto)_, where he was killed by his Brother Typhon _(Fratello Tifone) _due to the conspiracy of Laestrygon and the other great ones. This event prompted Hercules_ (Ercole) _to take away this state in order to avenge his father, and he ruled over it for many years until he left it to his son Tusco. It wasn’t long before Hesperus_ (Espero) _occupied it after being driven away from Spain_ (Spagna) _by his brother Italus_ (Italo)_, and the land was called Hesperia_ (Esperia)_, leaving the previous name of Oenotria_ (Enotria)_. Hesperus enjoyed it for a short time, because he was pursued by Italus Atlas Chitim_**** _King of Spain_ (Italo Atlante Chitim Re di Spagna)_, who took it from him and called it Italy_ (Italia)_. His own successors didn’t last much since Dardanus_ (Dardano) _killed his brother Iasion_ (Iasio) _due to a wrongdoing_***** _and fled to Samothrace_ (Samotracia) _fearing for his life. There he renounced all the claims he had upon the kingdom of Italy to Tyrrhenus_ (Turreno)_, son of the High King of Lydia_ (Alto Re di Lidia)_, and obtained in exchange a state in Asia, which was the basis for the Trojan_ (Troiano) _kingdom, while Tyrrhenus obtained this one. Italus had given the rulership of the Aborigines_ (Aborigeni) _to his daughter Roma, and from her ensued the realm of Latium_ (Latio)_ that passed on to the Trojans guided by Aeneas_ (Enea)_, whose descendants founded Rome_ (Roma)_, that after some centuries dominated almost the entire world. But being human things unstable, this, too, came to an end and the unfortunate Italy was trampled on and torn apart by the Goths_ (Gotti)_, the Alemanni_ (Alemani)_, the Lombards_ (Longobardi)_, the Saracenes_ (Saracini)_, the Normans _(Normandi)_, the Franks_ (Franzesi)_, the Spaniards_ (Spagn.li) _and other foreign peoples. But today it is peacefully ruled by its princes, who will with their knowledge and wisdom free it from great danger and ruin looming over it ina way similar to Greece_ (Grecia)_, as Astrologers_ (Astrologi) _say. Given that the Stars _(Stelle) _and their movements make no harm at all, still they show well enough the dangers we human beings have to face, so that with prudence and good government we can take care and get rid of them._

* The word ‘Grandi’ means ‘Big Ones’ but I chose ‘Great’ because it sounds better. Be it Great, Big, Huge or Titanic, the word obviously refers to the Titans/Giants and all the other possible declinations we already know.

** I couldn’t find much information about a possible translation and/or meaning of the word Chitim, other than the variant Chitin. It seems to be an appelative of Atlas.

*** The word is ‘torlo’. Cannot find a translation in modern Italian for this one but it seems ‘wrongdoing’ fits with the general sense of the sentence.

There’s so many things to say that it’s difficult to know where to start, so I think it’s best to divide this story in various points and then proceed.
1. Gomer Gallus, son of Japhet, first king of the peninsula.
2. Ham second ruler.
3. Noah takes charge.
4. The Great Ones rule.
5. Osiris Jupiter Just/Apis takes power.
6. Laestrygon left on the throne.
7. Osiris Jupiter Just killed by Typhon in a conspiracy in Egypt.
8. Hercules, son of Osiris, takes over from Laestrygon.
9. Tusco succeeds his father Hercules
10. Hesperus leaves Spain and gives his name to the territory, previously known as Oenotria.
11. Italus Atlas Chitim, Hesperus’ brother, takes Hesperia and renames it Italy.
12. Italus’ successors.
13. Dardanus kills Iasion and flees.
14. Dardanus leaves his title of King of Italy to Tyrrhenus.
15. Italus had already given Latium to his daughter Roma, and this kingdom will be taken back by Dardanus’ successor Aeneas.
16. Romans.
17. Invasions.

So here it’s finally introduced Gomer ‘Gallus’, who is clearly a different person from the previous Celtus talked about the France map. It’s difficult to understand who was the most gaulish of the two. But here Bonsignori has already stated that Celtus (Galate) was the ancesor of the Gauls, not Gomer Gallus. And still no word is spent on this Gomer, about whom we know that he was Ashkenaz’s father and Johannes Aventinus (Johannes Aventinus - Wikipedia), whose work was in the same line of that by Annio da Viterbo, identified him with Tuisto (Tuitsch - Johannes Aventinus - Wikipedia) already in the beginning of the 16th century. His work is now considered to be a fabrication.

Both Johannes and Annio apparently took their information from the ancient author Berossus, who was considered legit at that time but later declared a false and labeled Pseuso-Berossus (Berossus - Wikipedia) and cast into oblivion along with these stories. It is called ‘pseudo’, keep it in mind.

About Annio da Viterbo, once again, the wiki says (Annio da Viterbo - Wikipedia): ‘The _Antiquities _met at once both with believers and with severe critics who accused him of willful interpolation, or even fabrication. The content was falsely attributed to Berosus, Fabius Pictor, Cato the Elder, Manetho and others. The spurious character of these "historians" of Annio, which he published both with and without commentaries, has long been admitted. The demolition of the forgeries owed much to *Joseph Justus Scaliger*.’

*Joseph Justus Scaliger! *(https://chronologia.org/en/seven/1N01-EN-001-030.pdf - Joseph Justus Scaliger according to Jacob Duellman)

It was apparently Berossus the one equating Noah to Janus due to the invention of wine. Therefore it is stated that the name ‘Janus’ derives from the Hebrew root ‘iain’, wine, and according to Cato the Elder, in his ‘Origines’, the Greeks called him Oenotrus. Therefore the first name for Italy, Oenotria, was apparently given by Noah himself, according to this reconstruction.

I’m not going to relate the entire story. It’s interesting to see the Egyptian vibe of it. It seems a huge chunk of Greek ‘mythology’ was believed to be Egyptian history. Osiris and Jupiter were basically considered the same and the main Hercules of the story comes from Egypt rather than Greece. In a moment we are going to see the Greek one in relation to the islands. The Great Ones have a Tartarian vibe for sure, but they clearly represent the Titanomachy and Gigantomachy of Greek mythology. Italy was also apparently called Hesperia at a certain point in time, while this name is generally associated with Spain.

But I bet the most interesting part is the one talking about Italus, who supposedly gave Italy its name. Here he is called Italus Atlas Chitim, the King of Spain. As I’ve already said, I don’t have any ideas about the meaning of the word ‘Chitim’ (‘Chitin’ elsewhere after a quick research), but Atlas was for sure the name of the Titan from Greek mythology. And it was also said to be King of Atlantis. Is Bonsignori saying that the Italian peninsula took its name after the conquest by people coming from outside of Europe?
Italian - Latin - Atlantean?

I am going to stop here, since it’s already too much!



Sicily: _Expelled from Italy by his father Noah _(Noe)_, Ham_ (Camese) _was the first to enter this island with colonies. After him came Celtus_ (Galate)_, son of the Egyptian Hercules_ (Ercole Egizzio)_, sent by his brother Tusco accompanied by Tuscan_ (Toscane) _peoples. And then was the turn of Sicano, Lord_*** _of Spain_ (S. di Spagna) _after whom the land took the name of Sicania, leaving aside its previous name of Trinacria. At last it took the name of Sicily_ (Sicilia) _after Siculus _(Siculo)_ son of the Greek Hercules_ (Ercole Greco) _or after Siculus and Siceleo, Lords of Spain, as others believe. And then the Greeks_ (Greci)_ entered who were not united and therefore the Carthaginians_ (Cartag.si) _took advantage of it and almost ruled on the entire territory, which was achieved by the Romans_ (Romai)_. And when the Roman monarchy disappeared it was at the mercy of various people. But nowadays it’s defended by the King of Spain and enjoys its salubrious air and fertility of its land. The Greeks wrote many fables about this island, which contain important things under their veils._

* I’ve translated ‘S.’ with ‘Lord’ presuming it stands for ‘Signore’.

We are dealing here with a ‘Graeco-Egyptian’ history of the Mediterranean as much as in the previous caption. I am not going to comment on everything but just want to remember that all of these stories were attributed to Berossus through Annio da Viterbo and it was Scaliger who proclaimed them fabrications. Since then they are considered myths and nobody really cares anymore.
I am not saying I believe 100% these stories, but I believe they contain some truth and there could possibly be some geographical mistake hidden behind these tales.

The Gauls took Sicily with a Tuscan army? More about that! Are we sure it all happened in the misty antiquity?
The Greek Hercules makes here his first cameo appearance. Who was he at this point? What’s the difference with the Egyptian one?



Sardinia and Corsica: _It seems the ancient people thought that the Islands of Sardinia and Corsica_ (Isole di Sardigna e Corsica) _were one and the same, due to their proximity. It is said that Phorcys_ (Forco)_ son of Neptune_ (Nettuno) _was sent there with Tuscan_ (Toscane) _colonies by his brother Laestrygon_ (Lestrigone)_, the King of Italy_ (Re d’Italia)_, and left a part of it to the Ligures_ (Liguri)_. And it seems logic to assume that this part was Corsica, called Cyrnos_ (Cirno) _by the Greeks _(Greci)_. Which is still under their control. After Phorcys came from Africa Sardus_ (Sardo)_, son of the Egyptian Hercules_ (Ercole Eggizio) _with a great number of african people and the land took its name after this Sardus. It was then harassed by the Greeks, followed by the Carthaginians_ (Cartaginesi)_, who lost it to the Romans_ (Romani)_. But after many misfortunes, it obeys to the King of Spain_ (Re di Spagna)_, who defends it from the Barbarians_*** (Barbarbari)_, keeps its peace and rules it with Justice_ (Giustizia)_._

* People from the Barbary Coast in north Africa/Maghreb.

Sardinians come from Egypt. It is believed nowadays that Sardinians are autochthonous to the island, but here it’s well explained their origin. It is obviously not the only origin, but the main one. Ligures are mentioned here for the first time. They supposedly took Corsica in the time of myths and kept it all through the ages untill Napoleon, despite historians saying it passed multiple hands, expecially the Romans. Something is off with history.



Why did Scaliger and those behind him had to disregard all of these stories substituting them with a falsely scientific official history?

I'm exhausted


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## trismegistus (Jun 17, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> It’s interesting to see the Egyptian vibe of it. It seems a huge chunk of Greek ‘mythology’ was believed to be Egyptian history. Osiris and Jupiter were basically considered the same and the main Hercules of the story comes from Egypt rather than Greece. In a moment we are going to see the Greek one in relation to the islands. The Great Ones have a Tartarian vibe for sure, but they clearly represent the Titanomachy and Gigantomachy of Greek mythology. Italy was also apparently called Hesperia at a certain point in time, while this name is generally associated with Spain.




Apologies if this was mentioned earlier in the thread, but there is a city known as "Heracleion" in Egypt.

Heracleion - Wikipedia.

Egypt's Temple Town  - Archaeology Magazine


> Across from the temple’s entrance, archaeologists discovered *Doric columns* belonging to a circular Greek temple. Thonis-Heracleion’s surfeit of sanctuaries, including *temples dedicated to Hercules and Osiris*, was a result of official favor bestowed on it for its economic significance.



It has been brought up once before on SH by @Mabzynn here:
SH Archive Replies - Petra: The melted city




(51) Palestinae.​As Mabzynn pointed out - it looks like an intact city on this map from the 16th century, contrary to the historical narrative which says it sunk into the sea in 2nd century BCE.  Of course the question is raised how did Ortelius know of a sunken city 1700 years after the fact, similar to Pompeii appearing on maps during this time.


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## BusyBaci (Jun 17, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> As Mabzynn pointed out - it looks like an intact city on this map from the 16th century, contrary to the historical narrative which says it sunk into the sea in 2nd century BCE. Of course the question is raised how did Ortelius know of a sunken city 1700 years after the fact, similar to Pompeii appearing on maps during this time.


Yes, that thread would fit nicely with the story Bonsigniori is telling through his maps about Hercules, Osiris and Jupiter the just.

What's more interesting here is that Noah and Jupiter and Hercules were all contemporaries to each other, either they were living 900 plus years each and were able to see each other, or there is a problem with dating. I think the first one is more plausible based on the tales of their long lifespan.



Silveryou said:


> Italian peninsula: _Gomer Gallus_ (Comero Gallo)_, son of Japheth_ (Iafet)_, was the first to obtain this kingdom by his ancestor Noah_ (Noe)_, and directed its peoples on the right path. But when Ham_ (Camese) _was driven out by the others, he came here and began to corrupt those peoples. But then Noah, also known as Janus_ (Iano)_, arrived and expelled him. Some years after his death, the Peoples_ (Popoli)_, oppressed by the Great Ones_*** (Grandi)_, called Osiris Jupiter Just_ (Osiri Gioue Giusto) _for help._



I could be able to connect some dots in a conjecture, trying to explain some of the names of the land marks and characters in this story with Albanian language.

Ham (Camese) could be ralated to _Çameria_, _Chameria_ the land of the Albanian people who live in front of the Isle of Corfu in now day Greece, once called Epir/Epirus. And these population of people call themselves _Çam _very closely to_ Cam _or _Ham. _And if Noah himself was called also by the name of Ianus, it remind me of the city of _Ioannina_ in the same land of _Çameria _or_ Epir._ The Ionian Sea bears the same phonetics as Ioannina and in Albanian is just called Jon_, _meaning _(Ours)._

The name Epir if it's broken down as E-pir, means (dry land) and this word in Albanian was used by navigators sailing the seas, every time they spot dry land on open seas.

I'm thinking if Noah's Ark or another barge with people who survived the great flood landed on the mountains of Epir. Noah also called _Janus_ founds a city for himself (the city of Ioannina) and in the vicinity of it were the lands of his grandson named _Çam _who was cast out of his lands because he was a trouble maker. And where did he go? Of course, he must have traversed the Otranto Strait and went in the Italian Peninsula where he caused more trouble and was called out even there, forcing Noah/Janus to go there and teach him a lesson and curse him in the process of it.

If Noah was really in mount Ararat and commanding everything his sons and grandsons did from there, I really doubt he would have bothered to come all that way to Italy and go back just because one of his grandsons is such a PITA (pardon my language). But if he is close by, (in Greece) and he can reach Cam within a 2 sailing days and 2 days on horse, yeah, that's something someone is willing to bear in order to get people in line and be done once and for all.

Another curious thing is the name of Oenotra.


Silveryou said:


> _It wasn’t long before Hesperus_ (Espero) _occupied it after being driven away from Spain_ (Spagna) _by his brother Italus_ (Italo)_, and the land was called Hesperia_ (Esperia)_, leaving the previous name of Oenotria_ (Enotria)


So from what I'm understanding Italian peninsula was called _Oenotria_ and than changed to _Hesperia_ because of Espero being driven away from Spain.
_Oenotria_ sound like a mix of Italian and Albanian language as O-e-notria meaning _(It's ours)_ the same thing like with the Ionian Sea but more with an Italian flavor to it. Something like _(E Nostra)_. It seems that these people after the great flood were in the business of claiming free estate and putting signs everywhere they could...I'TS MINE!! And when things went haywire, grandpa had to step in and fix everything.

Are we dealing with some type of Cosa Nostra type of land grab here? Lool


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## Silveryou (Jun 17, 2022)

BusyBaci said:


> The _"Pto"_ ending in some of the towns I guess comes from Ptolemeu, a friend and a general in Alexander the Great army ruling over Alexandria and maybe regions close to it.


It seems that you are in fact correct. After a second (and a third, fourth, fifth...) look at it I noticed places called 'Ptolom.o'. It was difficult to notice 'cause it was written in vertical, so to say. I wonder why they had to add 'Ptolemaic' to all these places. Here below it's connected to the various rivers the Nile divides into in its delta.



​


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## BusyBaci (Jun 17, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> It seems that you are in fact correct. After a second (and a third, fourth, fifth...) look at it I noticed places called 'Ptolom.o'. It was difficult to notice 'cause it was written in vertical, so to say. I wonder why they had to add 'Ptolemaic' to all these places. Here below it's connected to the various rivers the Nile divides into in its delta.


Yeah, that's good to know. I'm not having any ideas except that the Ptolemaic dynasty somehow had the need to be distinguished from the locals, they came from Macedonia and they even resorted to inbreeding and sibling marriage to preserve skin color and the power to rule over Egypt. I guess they had some preferred towns and specifically named them with the "Pto" ending, I could be wrong though, I'm not having any specific explanation for it.


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## trismegistus (Jun 18, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Both Johannes and Annio apparently took their information from the ancient author Berossus, who was considered legit at that time but later declared a false and labeled Pseuso-Berossus (Berossus - Wikipedia) and cast into oblivion along with these stories. It is called ‘pseudo’, keep it in mind.





Silveryou said:


> About Annio da Viterbo, once again, the wiki says (Annio da Viterbo - Wikipedia): ‘The _Antiquities _met at once both with believers and with severe critics who accused him of willful interpolation, or even fabrication. The content was falsely attributed to Berosus, Fabius Pictor, Cato the Elder, Manetho and others. The spurious character of these "historians" of Annio, which he published both with and without commentaries, has long been admitted. The demolition of the forgeries owed much to *Joseph Justus Scaliger*.’



I find it interesting that people find it difficult to accept that the history of rome has no sources, yet when it comes to matters of chronology that fly in the face of Scalinger it is okay to reveal such falsehoods.  It is apparent that Berossus is as difficult to extrapolate real history from as any of the other "ancient historians" so much of mainstream academia is based on.  An argument used on both sides of the coin, to use forgery and lack of primary source as a reason to discredit another view.


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## Silveryou (Jun 18, 2022)

Ninth map titled ‘Parte di Scitia’ by Stefano Bonsignori.



​_The Scythians _(Sciti)_ believe in the story of a vergin who was born from the earth, being half in the shape of a woman and half of a Viper_ (Vipa)_. After making love to Jupiter_ (Gioue)_, she gave birth to a boy named Scythes _(Scita)_. Others tell she made love to Hercules_ (Ercole)_, who gave the Province_ (Provincia) _its name once he became famous. Scythians were originally few in number and possessed a small land near the Aras _(Arax) _river, but they grew in huge numbers and thanks to their own virtue they expanded their territory till they got a huge empire. Having grown in strenght, they had Kings_ (Re) _worthy of being remembered. At this point they crossed the Don_ (Tana) _river and conquered the two Sarmatias_ (Sarmazzie) _till they reached the Boreal Ocean_ (Oceano Boreale)_. When the principality of the Scythians broke apart, it is told that certain women called Amazons_ (Amazoni)_ began their rule and became famous for their vigor and martial arts. They were so excellent that not only they subdued a great part of Asia, but also many of the closer European_ (d’Europa) _nations. They destroyed the army of Cyrus _(Ciro) _and having captured him alive, they crucified him. Hercules of Alcmene_ (Alcmena) _and Jupiter challenged and defeated them and captured their Queen Hippolyta_ (Hippolita loro Reg.na)_. This battle put an end to their Reign_ (Regno)_. Darius_ (Dario) _then tried to subdue this nation after the Amazon rule, but he was forced to a retreat being on the verge of destruction. The Scythians are believed to be the first human beings. From their kind was born Janus_ (Iano)_, Diri_*** _and the ancestors who led colonies to Italy _(Italia) _and to other parts of Europe._

* I couldn’t find who this deity corresponds to.

Another interesting map. First of all it makes sense that Janus, previously identified with Noah, comes out in the proximity of the Aras river in Armenia, near mount Ararat. Therefore Bonsignori is saying that the various ‘peoples of the Book’, Jews included, directly descended from the Scythians, whose initial position was strangely similar to that of the Khazars…

There are another couple things to say about this caption.

Cyrus was apparently crucified according to this tradition. I want to remind everybody that Cyrus was considered a messiah, according to Isaiah 45:1…

There are two Herculeses and the second one, Alcmene’s son, generally spoken of as the original one, actually lived, according to Bonsignori, between the reign of Cyrus the Great (559 BC – 530 BC) and that of Darius of Persia (522 BC – 486 BC)! Is anybody able to find this Hercules in that time frame?


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## HELLBOY (Jun 18, 2022)

Since I see that there are characters out of time here, perhaps we could take into account the chronology of Anatoly Fomenko who says that the Old Testament is in fact more recent than the New Testament. Fomenko also says that about how before the Middle Ages it is difficult to say anything because there are no sources and only after that with the available sources I place Egypt as a first Rome, Egypt (Alexandria, Cairo). Century XII Second in Yoros, Jerusalem, Troy. Third in Vladimir Suzdal Rus, Veliky Novgorod, Fourth in Constantinople and Fifth in Moscow.


Century XI Egypt (Alexandria, Cairo). 
Century XII Second in Yoros, Jerusalem, Troy. 
In the 13th century the Trojan War would take place for the death of Christ. The new center of the empire is established in Russia.
Third in Vladimir Suzdal Rus, Veliky Novgorod this Rome would be of Enei Rurik. 
Unification of the Slavic and Turkic peoples under the rules of the Horde.
14th century "Mongol" invasions in Western and Southern Europe, Florence, Rome, Vatican. The riddle of the Etruscans. The Cossacks-arians from Russia to India, the epic Mahabaratha.
15th century Golden age of the Empire.
Rise of the Ottoman Empire and its union with the Horde-Russia, the conquest of the biblical Promised Land. 
The "Mongol" empire and the familiar Christian kingdom of Presbyter John.
The Inquisition in the Bible, Moses begins the Ottoman conquest of the 15th century, passing through the sea is the passage through the ice, medieval geography in the Old Testament, conquest of America by the Horde-Russia and the Ottoman Empire, conquest of America in the Book of Mormon by Noah-Columbus, colonization of America in the book of Popol Vuh in the 15th and 16th centuries, division of the world between Castile and Portugal, destruction of the "American Indians", the apocalypse is about the Ottoman conquest, Herodotus the chronicler of the Horde.
XVIth century 
Kazan: rebellions in Russia-Hordes, Revolution-Reformation in Western Europe, 16th century Moscow is described in the bible as Jerusalem of Nehemiah, Jerusalem in Palestine a new Jerusalem outside Moscow, Babylonian exile, the temple of Salomon and Sophia in Istanbul, Salomon is Souleiman the Magnificent.
XVII century the history of antiquity is written, the time of the judges of Israel is the time of the Inquisition, the emperor Claudius and Ivan the Terrible are the same, the Horde empire is broken, annihilation of the Cathar-Scythians. Romans destroy the history of the Horde.
XVIIIth century 
Division of the remnants of the Horde-Russia between Romanovs and the United States immediately after the fall of Pugachev.


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## Silveryou (Jun 18, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> I find it interesting that people find it difficult to accept that the history of rome has no sources, yet when it comes to matters of chronology that fly in the face of Scalinger it is okay to reveal such falsehoods. It is apparent that Berossus is as difficult to extrapolate real history from as any of the other "ancient historians" so much of mainstream academia is based on. An argument used on both sides of the coin, to use forgery and lack of primary source as a reason to discredit another view.


I'm not sure there are no sources as you are. My problem is mainly about chronology, geography and general interpretation of what is written. I have come to doubt my doubt too though. All these 'fabrications' were diclared such in the 'time of fabrications' (which has never ended, by the way), so who is granting me that someone censored the correct history and not the wrong one? And everytime I read something from that period, even the books they claim are 'true', there's also a lot of information theat they simply skip. For example here Anna Komnene talks about Bohemond's cousin (or brother) as a three meters tall man (and Bohemond too had to be extraordinary tall), but this information is simply not going out (Bohemond I of Antioch and his cousin). Are we supposed to believe the entire Alexiad is a fraud due to this detail and many others which go against the narrative? I don't believe so.
In this case we clearly have some kind of 'lost' history which was very commonly accepted in that period, be it true or false. This story has been hidden and studied only by specialists. The books have not been translated and not been reprinted. And the access to them is scarce. It's a gold mine to me.
Historians after Scaliger took that history, true or false as it was, and crippled it. The result is the very polite and misty history where there's no explanation to events because those explanations have been labeled 'myth'. Worse than that, they have now 'scientific' tools like c-14 to justify their new crippled narrative, even though Scaliger himself gave no scientific proof whatsoever in his preliminary works.
This is conspiracy at its finest. And it's done by an army of 'workers' who study and believe without any kind of critique mind!



HELLBOY said:


> Since I see that there are characters out of time here, perhaps we could take into account the chronology of Anatoly Fomenko who says that the Old Testament is in fact more recent than the New Testament. Fomenko also says that about how before the Middle Ages it is difficult to say anything because there are no sources and only after that with the available sources I place Egypt as a first Rome, Egypt (Alexandria, Cairo). Century XII Second in Yoros, Jerusalem, Troy. Third in Vladimir Suzdal Rus, Veliky Novgorod, Fourth in Constantinople and Fifth in Moscow.


I noted various repetitions in these maps. There's an abundance of Herculeses, the last one living in the time of Cyrus and Darius! On the Italian map it was funny to see how the supposedly mythical Phorcys, about whom 99.9% of Italians don't know who he was, gave Corsica to the Ligures, the region where Genoa is placed. Then it's taken by Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans and others... until it came back to Genoa from the XIII century to Napoleon! One could say it's the natural course of events, but it's still fascinating that the owners coming out of the 'obscure middle-ages' are the same who owned it in the epoch of myths and wonders.

When it comes to Fomenko, he is just one of the various chronologists, as I know that you know. I'm personally not convinced of his reconstruction. There are too many question marks all over it, and even if he describes his method in his books, I don't think he ever published the raw material and analisys he conducted back in the '70s and '80s. I also doubt he became fully acquainted with all the literature at disposal, so I think it's important to bring some liht on the subject and see where it goes.

By the way, what do you think about this Italus Atlas Chitim King of Spain, whose brother was Hesperus? The Garden of the Hesperides is traditionally placed in the West, but presumed localizations apart, it makes sense it was beyond the Pillars of Hercules. Was he a King coming from beyond the Atlantic?


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## ViniB (Jun 18, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Really? I've never heard of it. Was it in relation to living in caves or as a general name without a specific meaning?
> 
> 
> I don't have a clear opinion about that. Various images from the middle-ages show these 'wildmen' as a different culture and they seem perfectly adapted to their lifestyle. Maybe we should search for sources talking about them to see if there's some trace of flood-stories. As far as I know there was no relation between the two but, as I said, I've not read anything about it and I have no clear opinion.


It was a general name, in the most offensive way possible, like the natives weren't people of God because they weren't civilized, big time bs jesuit narrative.
One thing that is pretty interesting is that the tupinamba people have an oral tradition about a massive flood similar to noah and the aztec and mayan "legends" but no one talks about it.........


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## HELLBOY (Jun 18, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Seventh map titled ‘Trogloditica’ by Stefano Bonsignori.
> 
> View attachment 23306​_The ancients wrote few things about the Troglodytae land and so inhuman that generate horror. But it seems not to be the case, since Moses_ (Mose)_, fighting to take Meroe as a general for the Pharaoh_ (Faraone)_, and failing to capture it by force, finally took it thanks to the passionate love felt by the daughter of the King_ (Re)_ of the Troglodytae, after hearing about the reputation of his virtues. Won over by his virtues, she married him and gave him the City_ (Città)_. There cannot be cruelty where virtue itself is so strong. Some Troglodytae are faithful to the law of Christ _(X.o) _and some to that of Mohammed _(Maometto)_. They are under the rulership of the great Lord of the Ethiopian _(Sig.re degli Etiopi) _called Prester John_ (Prete Iani)_. The Portoguese_ (Portoghesi)_ took over a number of lands along these shores, some of which they still possess._
> 
> ...


About the Troglodytes it occurs to me that it could refer to the Blemians, a fantastic people of acephalous men known as blemias.

The majority opinion is to consider the Blemians as the successors of the buka or medjay (medju, in singular), who were basically "Nubians" migrated to Egypt in the second millennium and who were used as police forces), A different point of view, closely indebted to the classical Greco-Roman sources, considers them Ethiopian tribes, but it must be taken into account that these sources allude to a broad concept of Ethiopia, referring to the territories south of Egypt inhabited by black populations.
Blemmyes - Wikipedia





The Piri Reis map places a Blemio next to a Cinocephalus next to the Amazon, I remember that in the mythical city of El Dorado they also place Amazon warriors and headless guys in other maps.
Piri Reis map - Wikipedia





Something similar to troglodytes sounds to me like what was said about the people who inhabited Mexico and who were supposed to have been here before the Aztecs.

When these six tribes (Mexica-Aztecs) first came from Mexico, the Chichimecas made little or no resistance against them, but hid among the rocks; however, some of them soon armed themselves and would undoubtedly have destroyed the Tlaxcalans, had not a subtle plot saved them.

Joseph de Acosta tells us that in 1586 he saw a tomb in Mexico, where lay buried a Chichimeca of gigantic size.

The Chichimecs who remained in the mountains (they lived in deep caves) left the new people in quiet possession of their lands, and learned some of their customs, to the extent that they began to build huts, elect governors and live according to their laws.





All of northern Mexico is riddled with legends about cave-dwelling giants, who even helped the little people in farming, who suddenly became cannibalistic for lack of food and began to hunt human children, so they were hunted down and many went into their caves and never resurfaced, not to mention all the clippings about giant skeletons with sharp teeth in newspapers. I understand that these Blemies I spoke of were also considered giants.


Silveryou said:


> While translating this new map I was thinking about the information on the map of Egypt (Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany). There Ham was said to be called Camese and being the youngest of Noah’s sons born after the Flood. It came now to mind the simple fact that the last of the sons of Ham was Canaan, who was the one cursed by Noah in the famous episode of the Bible. But it is said that in ‘classical antiquity’ the misnomer ‘Curse of Ham’ was attached to the ‘Curse of Canaan’ (Canaan (son of Ham) - Wikipedia). So Bonsignori says that Ham had a double name while in reality the second name, Camese, might be attributed to his youngest son Canaan. Consequently there was a double mistake with some truth to it. On one hand Cam and Camese are two different characters while on the other Camese was the last of Ham’s sons, not Noah’s. I an going to use Ham as a translation of Camese in any case.
> 
> But this once more begs the question. How could the monk Bonsignori and those who came up with these stories be so ignorant about the main text of christianity, the Bible? It seems as if Bonsignori was talking about far away traditions not really important during his time. It seems as if he himself and Annio preceding him were in fact taught these stories by somebody else and were reporting them trying to correlate them with their own stories about Graeco-Roman dieties. Was the misnomer ‘Curse of Ham’ really given during ‘classical antiquity’?
> 
> ...


The following thing I am going to say I think it relates to much of what I read in the different maps you have been translating, to give me an understanding of the whole thread I will put together I want to start with a map.
The following map: 1598 entitled Tartariae Sive Magni Chami Regni typus.
In the middle of Tartary a certain kingdom called Argon is pointed out on one side of Arsaret, of which it says the following:
Argon. There was once in Asia a Christian kingdom known by Prester John, and D. Thomas founded it in this place, so that it was in contact with the church of Rome, and was subject to Rome through Prester John of Africa. Before being defeated by the Goths, it was known as Criue Romoue .... That is, this city was founded by the apostle Thomas.
I went to look for the Map of Urbano Monte 1587, it also contains the kingdom of Aragon next to the kingdom of Arsaret, nearby there is something about the 12 tribes of Israel.



1598






1587
​King Ian or John creator of the kingdom of Sardinia and Rome. Kingdom in the Middle Ages.
John II of Aragon and Navarre, the Great, or John without Faith according to the Catalan rebels who rose up against him.
Juan II de Aragón - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
John II was one of the longest-lived monarchs of the 15th century - his enemy Louis XI of France called him an old "vulpeja".

Would this creator of the kingdom of Sardinia be the same as Prester John?






It seems that there is a manuscript called: The General Calf.
Book in which the shields used by many kingdoms and empires, lordships and the genealogy of the lineages of Spain and the shields that they use are related.
The author of this work is Don Diego Fernandez de Mendoza, knight that he found in the war of Granada, chronicler of Fernando de Aragon, year 1671.
Curious that this same Aragon and the city of Aragon in Asia that passed from the apostle tomas to Prestor Juan are related in this way.

It includes a description of the coat of arms of Prester Juan king of the Indies.
The manuscript uses two different versions of the same facts, and is presented as an enigma for the reader to solve.
It tells how Christianity becomes dogma and imposes its faith together with the authority of Preste Juan, but with two different stories that, according to the author of the manuscript, must be understood. In the first, an alliance is established through a marriage between an Indian princess and a European knight, which results in the imposition of Christianity. In the second, the appearance of Christ would have been a decision of three magicians from the Indies, whose purpose would have been to create a spiritual leader in the image and likeness of the teachings of a worthy ancestor, choosing the patriarch Thomas, for whose custody the project and the power of Prester John is created. In a way, it speaks to us of two origins of the same myth: the political and the spiritual.
Secondly, it questions the authority of the popes of Rome, as leaders of the Christian church from its beginnings, and grants this dignity to a priest, named John, who, on the other hand, appears as a singular leader of Eurasia in the Middle Ages, until the European colonization of the XV-XVI century, but of whose trace there is no collective conscience. Thirdly, the powers of the Dukes of Alba and the Kings of Portugal are said to derive from the medieval Greek imperial lineage, and that of the Kings of Aragon from a related Black Sea expedition.
Interestingly, Aragon in Spain is again linked to Aragon in Siberia.
Siberia Iberia and Iberoamerica (said to be called Iberoamerica because they speak Iberoromance languages).









*Coats of arms attributed to Prestor Juan*​
Returning to the kingdom of Sardinia, I have some data.




When the Roman Empire fell, the Germanic tribes such as the Erulos and Ostrogoths took over Italy.
AD 539 The Gothic wars between the Byzantine empire and the Ostrogoths take place. Byzantines with their Bicephalous Eagle shield.
569 the Lombards arrive and take over northern Italy until 774 AD. and dominate Italy alongside the Byzantines.
Charlemagne appears on the scene and among his kingdoms is the Lombard.
1162 Frederick I Barbarossa Holy Roman Emperor
1277 - 1447 appears the house of the Visconti founded by Oton Visconti archbishop of Milan, their coat of arms is very similar to how they represented Quetzalcoatl, equally similar to Prestor Juan's coat of arms.








Then the Visconti possessions become part of the Valois (French) and later recovered by the Sforza.








*Coat of arms of the Visconti de Gallura, France also has a rooster as a shield, right?*​
In 1535 this area of the kingdom of Sardinia passed into the hands of Charles V emperor of the Holy Roman Empire with the possessions that the kingdom of Aragon had in Italy and those of Spain and the area of Germany and France.







*Portrait of the then Prince Charles, the future Emperor, with his paternal family (by Bernhard Strigel, Vienna, Kunsthistorisches Museum). With the portraits appear inscriptions that identify them as members of the family of Jesus. Thus, Maximilian is Cleofás, blood brother of Saint Joseph, and Carlos is «SIMON ZELOTES CON/SOBRINVS. DNI. NRI”.*​
1540 Felipe son of Carlos new Germanic Roman emperor, continues to reign over the kingdom of Sardinia.

I remember Ogilby mentioning that the people of Norumbega were Lombards and related to the Mexicans and David Ingram mentioned that the people of Norumbega spoke a language very similar to Latin (the Lombards lived with the Byzantines, remember?).



Even if there is a relationship with the Mexicans, several titles come to mind like that in the newspaper: Country that the Spanish found 1521, Called Yucatán.

It says: King Mathozoma, who is the heart / of Great Venice / and the most powerful king... In the same lake there is a great city... Christians call it Great Venice... Why? Cortes put it that way? Was he not himself a Christian? Why would Christians/Spaniards call it Great Venice unless it reminded them of Venice? The conquerors generally named their territories after their countries of origin.

The Lombards being neighbors of the Venetos of Byzantium with their double-headed eagle, a Moctezuma with the double-headed eagle, old maps of Mexico, double-headed eagles like the one from Cortes, the map of Uppsala that was found in Sweden.











The Lombard-Venetian kingdom had a double-headed eagle... Before the Napoleonic wars, the territories that would form the kingdom were the Duchy of Milan under Habsburg rule and the Republic of Venice.









​


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## iseidon (Jun 19, 2022)

BusyBaci said:


> I know, Wiki is not to be trusted, but many members constantly refer to it for historical events.



I'm sure most authors provide a link to Wikipedia just so the reader can read the short and general version (and pick out for himself what he needs by reading between the lines). Pure courtesy (so the reader doesn't have to waste time and make unnecessary movements). Considering that in some things, Wikipedia is a pretty good general source that superficially touches on many topics. If the subject is of interest, the internet is at your service.

@Silveryou, thank you for your hard work.


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## Silveryou (Jun 19, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> About the Troglodytes it occurs to me that it could refer to the Blemians, a fantastic people of acephalous men known as blemias.


I don't really believe in 'modified'. 'diverse' human beings without a head, with a canine head or a single leg. If I have to rationalize a person with his head in the torso, I would say that they left their afro hair grow without a cut and therefore it could give the impression of their head being embed with the rest of the body. Just a thought here.



HELLBOY said:


> I went to look for the Map of Urbano Monte 1587, it also contains the kingdom of Aragon next to the kingdom of Arsaret, nearby there is something about the 12 tribes of Israel.


It says: 'here live(d) the 10 tribes of Israel'.



HELLBOY said:


> Would this creator of the kingdom of Sardinia be the same as Prester John?





HELLBOY said:


> It includes a description of the coat of arms of Prester Juan king of the Indies.


To me the Priest John has to be another name of Janus, in the light of these maps I'm translating. I'm not going to say it's true, but at least it makes more sense than singular individuals called Johns living 700-800 years ago, or less than that. As I said I'm not a fan of the extreme chronological revisionism because it tends to merge history with various political or ideological or religious motivations which were popular and in part still are in these last few centuries.
From what can be understood by these maps it seems that Christainity is not necessarily related to Judaism, or at least not in the way it's commonly believed, which is that Christianity is a derivative of it. The figure of Noah/Janus/Prester John is much more important than commonly believed.



HELLBOY said:


> Secondly, it questions the authority of the popes of Rome, as leaders of the Christian church from its beginnings


And here is the part about political/religious/ideological bias. The General Calf (El origen inédito del Cristianismo oficial, un matrimonio y/o un proyecto indio) doesn't question the Pope's authority, in fact it reinforces it by saying that the Pope is the rightful successor of John/Janus/Noah. The one who questions it is the author Andreu Marfull, who is a communist with (surprise surprise) an immense love for the Jews. He has established a weird and baseless chronological reduction of 185 years out of thin air, and then applied his ideology to history. So it's a continuous praise to the Jews and blame on the Romans throughout the entire website.
So thank you Marfull for recovering the manuscript, but you should try to leave your Jewish bias where it is.

These things aside there is certainly something going on, even though I'm not certain about reconstructions with symbolism alone.

By the way, some years ago I transcripted the complete chronological shift of 185 years (and its double of 370 years) proposed by Marfull.


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## ViniB (Jun 19, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> I find it interesting that people find it difficult to accept that the history of rome has no sources, yet when it comes to matters of chronology that fly in the face of Scalinger it is okay to reveal such falsehoods.  It is apparent that Berossus is as difficult to extrapolate real history from as any of the other "ancient historians" so much of mainstream academia is based on.  An argument used on both sides of the coin, to use forgery and lack of primary source as a reason to discredit another view.


The implications of a wider acceptance about this fact of lack of original sources is a major, if Not total, discredit of the entire his-story of the 1st millenium along with the main religious institutions...... tbh i wouldn't mind that because one of my dreams is to storm the pedocan library :v


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## Silveryou (Jun 19, 2022)

Tenth map titled ‘Parte d’Affrica’ by Stefano Bonsignori.



​_This part of High Aethiopia _(Ethiopia) _was so called after Aethiop_ (Ethiope) _son of Vulcan_ (Vulcano)_, who ruled over it. It was unknown for many centuries, although many authors wrote about it and the sources of the Nile_ (Nilo) _and its floods, even though they did in many different ways. Ptolemy King of Egypt_ (Tolomeo Re d’Egitto)_, called philadelphus, discovered it, since he wanted new things for his leisure and new entertainments, and sent there people and found out that the heavy rain was the cause for those floods. But after his time the other Kings were not very intereseted in learning and almost ignored such things. But at the present day the Portuguese_ (Portoghesi)_, following the conquests they did in the East Indies_ (Indie Orientali)_, clearly showed and disclosed not only that the Nile has multiple sources, but also that this part of the world is nowadays called Abyssinia_ (Abasia) _and its people are the Abyssinians_ (Abissini)_. This province is governed by the Emperor of the Ethiopians_ (Limpadore delli Ethiopi) _called prester John_ (Ianni)_, who rules over an Empire_ (Imperio) _of fifteen_ (XV) _great reigns all united together. It is said that the cult of the Gods_ (Dei) _and the first rites and sacrifices were originally instructed among them. These people are Christian_ (X.i) _converted by Saint Philip the Apostle_ (S. Filippo Appostolo)_, who first converted the eunuch chamberlain of Queen Kandake _(Regina Candace)_. They believe the lineage of their kings_ (Re)_ goes back to Solomon_ (Salamone) _and the Queen of Sheba_ (Regina Sabba)_. These people have many Judaic_ (Giudaiche) _rites, like the observance of the Shabbat_ (Sabato)_, the circumcision and others. They hold one of their patriarchs as their Pater Patriae_ (PP)***_, who is called Alima in their language and means father in ours. The Portuguese have managed to discover and gain many riches from these places after their conquest of the East Indies. The first discovererof this land was Lord_**** _Diogo Lopes de Sequeira_ (S. Diego Lopezze di Sequira)_, who landed at the port of Mazzua in the Arabian_ (Arabico)_ gulf. A close friendship was then established between Manuel King of Portugal_ (Emanuello Re di Portogallo) _and these people, which lasted to this day. This nation was gross and with little arts or crafts. But nowadays, due to the commerce of the Portoguese, they are industrious and are improving day after day._

* I think PP stands for Pater Patriae, ‘Father of the Nation’, since it fits with the role of the Alima, which is said to mean ‘father’ as well. I couldn't trace the term Alima anywhere on the web, so if someone knows, let me/us too.

** I translated ‘S.’ with Lord imagining it stands for Italian ‘Signore’, but I cannot unsee the same ‘S.’ used for Philip the Apostle and presumably meaning Saint. It seems there was not that difference between being a Lord and a Saint in any case!

Not exactly related to the text, but I wonder if the Shabbat has anything to do with the Queen of Sheba. In particular the Queen of Sheba notoriously went on a trip to meet Solomon. Was it the first sabbatical (Sabbatical - Wikipedia)?

So in a previous map Bonsignori said that the Ethiopians changed their capital as a consequence of Portuguese activity ‘from Garama to Zambare’ (Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany). Now he says they ruled over an empire composed of fifteen huge reigns. This should mean, as partially stated in the previous map, that they ruled over most of the interior parts of Africa. The protagonist is always Prester John: was he Janus/Noah?

The explorer Diogo Lopes de Sequeira became acquainted with these places in the city of Mazzua in The Arabian Gulf. I don't know where this city is located and what's its name nowadays. I am not even sure that the Arabian Gulf Bonsignori is talking about is the modern Persian Gulf. In any case it seems the text implies that Diogo actually didn't go there. So why should he be considered its discoverer?

If somebody sees something else unusual let me/us know.


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## trismegistus (Jun 19, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> _They believe the lineage of their kings_ (Re)_ goes back to Salomon_ (Salamone) _and the Queen of Sheba_ (Regina Sabba)_. These people have many Judaic_ (Giudaiche) _rites, like the observance of the Shabbat_ (Sabato)_, the circumcision and others._



Graham Hancock discusses the Judaic origins of the Ethiopians in his book Sign and Seal, in which he also makes the claim that the holy grail is kept hidden in Our Lady Mary of Zion Church.

See also: The Lalibela Churches in Ethiopia aren't rock-cut, but products of a cataclysm






​Unsurprisingly it appears as if this lake has undergone considerable expansion in the last few hundred years, if the cartography is to be taken at face value. 



> So in a previous map Bonsignori said that the Ethiopians changed their capital as a consequence of Portuguese activity ‘from Garama to Zambare’


Perhaps Garama was submurged in the expansion of the lake?  This could be a possible explanation in lieu of the Portuguese explanation

Many large coastal cities bordering this lake on his maps have likely been submerged.  The pin drop and coordinates are for Tana Qirqos, which according to Hancock was the first resting place of the Grail for 800 years.  Was this truly an island at the time or do these coordinates match up with the city Gafat?

ON THE TRAIL OF THE ARK OF THE COVENANT IN ETHIOPIA’S LAKE TANA – Addis Herald

The Iconography of St. George in Ethiopia: Part II: ST. GEORGE THE DRAGON-KILLER on JSTOR

Category:Paintings of Saint George and the dragon of Ethiopia - Wikimedia Commons

Why such focus on artwork featuring dragon slaying?  Was this a land of dragons in the past?

To the north, you also have some interesting ruins.




Site - Fasil Ghebbi - Gondar
​


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## Silveryou (Jun 19, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> Unsurprisingly it appears as if this lake has undergone considerable expansion in the last few hundred years, if the cartography is to be taken at face value.
> 
> Perhaps Garama was submurged in the expansion of the lake? This could be a possible explanation in lieu of the Portuguese explanation


It doesn't seem to me it's the same lake though. Sorry if I give poor indications about the maps themselves. It represents the territory of what is now modern Kenya and Tanzania. So that lake in the centre should be Lake Victoria.

About Garama and Zambare, the previous map represented the second on what is probably the southern tip of modern Lake Tanganyka, although I don't know what that city is called nowadays. Mpulungu (Mpulungu - Wikipedia)? Mbala (Mbala, Zambia - Wikipedia)? Some other city? Or is it maybe in ruin? Or maybe even the ruins don't exist anymore!

When it comes to Garama, Bonsignori doesn't say where this city was located, but it sems it was not near Zambare. I don't see it on this map and for what I remember it's not even in the map of Ethiopia proper. So it would be interesting to understand what is the real current or historical name of this city. The only Garama I found is the capital of the Garamantes in Lybia, but it doesn't fit nor for the location nor for the people inhabiting it.



ViniB said:


> The implications of a wider acceptance about this fact of lack of original sources is a major, if Not total, discredit of the entire his-story of the 1st millenium along with the main religious institutions...... tbh i wouldn't mind that because one of my dreams is to storm the pedocan library :v


There are a lot of books at disposal to read. I think it's better to start with those available and then proceed with the Vatican and the other side of the Moon. I know a lot of people who haven't read anything but want to pick at the 'De mysteriis such and such'!


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## trismegistus (Jun 19, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> It doesn't seem to me it's the same lake though. Sorry if I give poor indications about the maps themselves. It represents the territory of what is now modern Kenya and Tanzania. So that lake in the centre should be Lake Victoria.


Admittedly it is quite difficult to match up currently existing regions with these maps, as many of these names have changed countless times over the years.  I was wondering myself after I had created the reply if this was in fact, the same area.

Regardless, there is a lot to unpack in regards to Ethiopia and its importance in the historical narrative, though perhaps in its own thread moving forward.


Silveryou said:


> When it comes to Garama, Bonsignori doesn't say where this city was located, but it sems it was not near Zambare. I don't see it on this map and for what I remember it's not even in the map of Ethiopia proper. So it would be interesting to understand what is the real current or historical name of this city. The only Garama I found is the capital of the Garamantes in Lybia, but it doesn't fit nor for the location nor for the people inhabiting it.




The Geographical System of Herodotus, Examined and Explained, by a Comparison with Those of Other Ancient Authors and with Modern Geography Etc

​




source: r/MapPorn - Map of the World as known to the Ancient (map is from 1844) [2102 x 1638]

An Universal History

An Universal History, from the Earliest Account of Time

The Obstinate Lady; a New Comedy, Etc

​It appears that even though this city is in Libya, the association with Ethiopia is present in older literature.
​


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## Silveryou (Jun 19, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> It appears that even though this city is in Libya, the association with Ethiopia is present in older literature.
> ​


Well, I'm still not sure, but if it was then Bonsignori said they moved their capital only in the XV century, presumably. I have to say though that a capital for Ethiopia would be more fit on the Nile. In a previous map Bonsignori talked about Meroe which was the historical capital of Ethiopia. I wonder if Garama followed Meroe.


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## HELLBOY (Jun 19, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Décimo mapa titulado 'Parte d'Affrica' por Stefano Bonsignori.
> 
> [ADJUNTAR=completo]23394[/ADJUNTAR]​_Esta parte de Alta Aethiopia _ (Etiopía) _fue llamada así por Aethiop_ (Ethiope) _hijo de Vulcano_ (Vulcano) _, quien la gobernó. Fue desconocido durante muchos siglos, aunque muchos autores escribieron sobre él y las fuentes del Nilo_ (Nilo) _y sus crecidas, aunque lo hicieron de muy diversas formas. Ptolomeo Rey de Egipto_ (Tolomeo Re d'Egitto) _, llamado Filadelfo, lo descubrió, ya que quería cosas nuevas para su ocio y nuevos entretenimientos, y envió gente allí y descubrió que las fuertes lluvias eran la causa de esas inundaciones. Pero después de su tiempo, los otros reyes no estaban muy interesados en aprender y casi ignorar cuentos cosas. Pero en la actualidad los portugueses_ (Portoghesi)_, a raíz de las conquistas que hicieron en las Indias Orientales_ (Indie Orientali) _, demostró y reveló claramente no solo que el Nilo tiene múltiples fuentes, sino también que esta parte del mundo se llama hoy en día Abisinia_ (Abasia) _y su gente son los abisinios_ (Abissini) _. Esta provincia está gobernada por el Emperador de los etíopes_ (Limpadore delli Ethiopi) _llamado preste Juan_ (Ianni) _, quien gobierna sobre un Imperio_ (Imperio) _de quince_ (XV) _grandes reinados todos unidos. Se dice que entre ellos se instruía originalmente el culto de los Dioses_ (Dei) _y los primeros ritos y sacrificios. Estas personas son cristianas_(Xi) _convertido por San Felipe Apóstol_ (S. Filippo Appostolo) _, quien primero se convirtió al eunuco chambelán de la reina Kandake _ (Regina Candace) _. Ellos creen que el linaje de sus reyes_ (Re) _ se remonta a Salomón_ (Salamone) _y la Reina de Saba_ (Regina Sabba) _. Estas personas tienen muchos ritos judaicos_ (Giudaiche) _, como la observancia del Shabbat_ (Sabato) _, la circuncisión y otros. Tienen a uno de sus patriarcas como su Pater Patriae_ (PP) ***_, que en su lengua se llama Alima y en la nuestra significa padre. Los portugueses han logrado descubrir y obtener muchas riquezas de estos lugares después de su conquista de las Indias Orientales. El primer descubridor de esta tierra fue Lord  _***  * _Diogo Lopes de Sequeira_ (S. Diego Lopezze di Sequira) _, quien desembarcó en el puerto de Mazzua en el golfo Arábigo_ (Arábigo) _ . Se estableció entonces una estrecha amistad entre Manuel Rey de Portugal_ (Emanuello Re di Portogallo) _y este pueblo, que perdura hasta el día de hoy. Esta nación era grosera y con pocas artes u oficios. Pero hoy en día, debido al comercio de los portugueses, son laboriosos y van mejorando día tras día._
> 
> ...


You said: The Noah/Janus/Priest John figure is much more important than is probably realized. To me, Priest John has to be another name for Janus.

I said about Fomenko's work: Moses initiates the 15th century Ottoman conquest, the conquest of America in the Noah-Columbus Book of Mormon.

Now we have Noe-Jano-Preste John-Columbus.



I'm a few months old now that I found this website: EL HILO DE ARIADNA

A site completely in Spanish, however in the welcome write this:

This blog is dedicated to Ruggero Marino, since his work inspired my studies and showed me an exciting world.

Ruggero Marino - Cristoforo Colombo - Ruggero Marino - Cristoforo Colombo



Well, the site is called Ariadne's Thread and it actually works similar to this site because it has a lot of threads related to history similar to this site, in each thread it brings up really interesting results hidden in certain books, writings and things like that.

And I got there once when I was looking for information on Prestor John and read one of his early threads which I found interesting as he hinted that Prestor John was none other than Columbus. He also talks a lot about Marco Polo and his book "Il Millione", even if I wanted to summarize his findings, I couldn't in one post.


-Christopher Columbus is Prestor John:

INDIAS

The mythical Indies leave the legend and enter history. Their Prester, will lead the arrival of Europeans to their shores:


"The King and Queen, Our Lords, when I served them with the Indies, I say served, that it seems that I by the will of God Our Lord gave them to them, as a thing that was mine, I can say" (Testament of Christopher Columbus, Document XC).

 sailing (...) towards the west, or towards the Indians, as they say" Was not Preste Juan the "illustrious and magnificent king of the Indians"?


The wretched priest-king named Christopher Columbus never imagined... that at the end of his days, everything would be taken away from him:


"Now, at the end of my life, I was stripped of my honor and my state without cause, and in this there was neither justice nor mercy." (Christopher Columbus, Document XLII)


-Talk of Marco Polo in America from a map:

"Mapa con barco" ("Map with ship"), a ship is drawn below which appears a coat of arms and a cross of letters that together form the name of Marco Polo.

But the really incredible thing about this map is that it represents.... North America! In Secretan's own words...

MARCO POLO EN AMERICA.

-If you look at Marco Polo's route in Asia it is shaped like a dog and also South America.






I admit that when I saw that the Marco Polo Route drew the head of a big dog over Asia, the relationship BIG DOG - BIG DOG immediately came to my mind.



-By the way, do you remember a possible Prester John of the kingdom of Sardinia that I showed you above with the same coat of arms?

my equal to the coat of arms of the Canary Islands where Columbus-Preste Juan came from.







Since ancient times it was believed that beyond the Pillar of Hercules, that is, the Strait of Gibraltar, the sea ended and the abyss began. This unknown part of the Earth, where the sun died, was considered the Underworld: the kingdom of the god Hades.

Hades had a dog with three heads and a serpent's tail, called Can Cerberus, who guarded the gates of his kingdom (Tartarus).




Dog - Serpent that according to Greek mythology guards the Underworld, and the terminology used by Marco Polo with respect to the territories explored by him, the lands of the GREAT CAN (dog in Latin) or KAAN (snake in Mayan).

However, Cerberus was not the only guardian dog of the gates of the Underworld.

It is here that Anubis, Xololt, the dog-headed god and brother of Quetzalcoatl, St. Christopher (Kinocephalus) and all wear a cross.




Therefore, for the ancients, the West was not only the Underworld, but also a "Land of Dogs". Therefore, I personally wonder if the Canary Islands will receive precisely such a name, being the westernmost point of the known world or ecumene.

CANARIAS

Thus, Rome would place in these islands the zero meridian, the meeting point between East and West, the meeting point between the world and its underworld, between the known and the unknown.

-Once Prestor John-Columbus settled in America-the Indies were invaded by the people of the north, by none other than the Tartars, who came from the north of America to South America where they defeated Prestor John-Columbus after almost more than a century. of European domination of these lands that now become part of Tartary. This is based on Marco Polo's account of the fall of Prestor Juan by Genghis Khan's Tartars and some Inca documents...

The Inca quipu that Quipucamayoc Chauarurac showed to the Jesuit Juan Anello Oliva. Let's remember that according to this record, people from Asia had arrived to the American continent, and that...

INDIAS


"There, finding the lands occupied by peoples who built great pyramids, they descended in the thirteenth century further south, where they clashed with the warlike inhabitants of the coasts, who laid down their arms only when men of a different stature came down from the heights, that is, almost twice theirs, with white complexion, thick hair and a face covered with a golden beard. From here was born the naive fable of the giants and the divine origin of the Inca people. Now, these white people had touched the Continent a century earlier, as the royal quipu narrates, than the tribe of Tartary, following, however, a different maritime route, that is, from the other side of the sea, the People of the North. When the Tartarians confronted the white people they showed superior strength, to the point that they exterminated almost all of them. The survivors deferred to the clemency of the victors, who always acted in this way with all the peoples who recognized their superiority. The intelligence of these people of the Old Continent led them to fuse blood and culture in order to create a new lineage in those lands where the city of Tumbez was founded".


-Finally and not to exceed the allowed characters of each answer, do you remember what I told you about Fomenko and the promised land?


15th century Golden Age of the Empire.

Rise of the Ottoman Empire and its union with the Horde-Russia, the conquest of the biblical Promised Land.

The "Mongol" empire and the well-known Christian kingdom of Presbyter John.

The Inquisition in the Bible, Moses initiates the Ottoman conquest of the 15th century.


-Ariadna has something similar....


Laietus wrote:

"It is curious the map this of Pomponius Mela, I seem to remember that red sea is a mistranslation of the Hebrew and that it means sea of seaweed (sargassum?)"


Indeed. In Jewish texts, the "Red Sea" is named through the Hebrew phrase "Yam Suf", whose exact translation is "Sea of seaweed" .

Precisely in the middle of the Atlantic, today, there is an immense prairie of brownish red algae, known as the "Sargasso Sea".

This sea has an extension similar to that which occupies all of Europe, and revolves around the Bermuda Islands.

Christopher Columbus would narrate his transit through the Sargasso Sea in his "Logbook":



"... They saw much grass and very often, and it was rock grass, and the grass came from towards the west. They judged themselves to be near land.

So, inevitably we must ask ourselves if there is any connection between the "Sea of seaweed" that Moses and the people of Israel crossed, and the "Sargasso Sea".

MAR DE LAS SARGAZOS.


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## Silveryou (Jun 20, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> Now we have Noe-Jano-Preste John-Columbus.


You see HELLBOY, it's now many years that I started reading every sort of alternative narrative related to history and I have to say that most of the time these 'new' narratives bring to absolutely nothing. The first experience I had was with Gene D Matlock, search for him if you don't know who he is. Long story short, it all ends with lenghty identifications of various peoples, myths, symbols and languages one with the other. Chaos is the final outcome.
So yes, Columbus was Italian, but no he was Spanish, but no he was Portuguese, but no he was a Jew (surprise). He was good but he was bad. We have a 'portrait' identical to the Pope, cool. There are dogs everywhere on coat of arms, cooler.

What's the end result of this new narratives? None!

Fomenko says Columbus was Noah. Fine. What about all the various little details of his biography then? Is everything false?

My personal take is that every single piece of information must be taken from ancient sources rather than modern writers. Yes the portrait of Columbus identical to Pope Innocent VIII is a very cool detail. I keep it. But the rest is too much. It doesn't make sense to me.


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## Silveryou (Jun 20, 2022)

Eleventh map titled ‘Mauritania’ by Stefano Bonsignori.



​_In their tales the ancients stated that the mount Atlas_ (Atlante)_ reached the sky with its summit, meaning that Iapetus_ (Iapeto) _called Atlas, first ruler _(Sig.re) _of this Province_ (Provincia) _after the greater flood, was the son of Noah_ (Noe) _called Sky_ (Cielo)_. Here Hercules _(Ercole) _passed there to avenge his father Osiris’_ (Osiri) _death and killed Antaeus _(Anteo) _who ruled over it, from whose wife Tinjis_ (Tingena)_ had a son called Sufax_ (Siface)_. Hercules built the City of Tangier_ (Citta Tingena) _from which the Province took its name, while the remnant parts were given their names by the Caesars_ (Cesari)_. Sufax expanded the state inherited from his father until the Phoenicians _(Fenici) _disturbed the peace of these people, and the Carthaginians_ (Cartaginesi) _became rulers of a part of it. But then it passed under the Roman_ (Romani)_ rule with all the Carthaginian territory, and after them many foreign people appeared and lastly the Saracens_ (Saracini)_, still ruling it today, except for that part owned by the Portuguese_ (Portoghesi) _and the Spaniards_ (Spagniuoli)_. Even though these Saracens are barbarians, they hold dear virtue and fine arts, which is proved by the abundance of public schools present in various places of this territory._

This map provides more ‘historical mythology’ for us to read. It will be useful to do a summary at the end with all the various identifications. Here Noah is obviously called Sky, Uranus, since he was presumably castrated by his son Ham (or Canaan), identified with Cronus/Saturn.


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## BusyBaci (Jun 20, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> -If you look at Marco Polo's route in Asia it is shaped like a dog and also South America.
> 
> ​I admit that when I saw that the Marco Polo Route drew the head of a big dog over Asia, the relationship BIG DOG - BIG DOG immediately came to my mind.
> 
> ...


Now, I really do like to speculate and connect some dots in a conjectural way, but every time I do it, I base my reasoning and logic on the films, video games and other forms of entertainment mediums where I let my imagination go wild and set it free. There is no harm being done there, it's just some entertaining thoughts and no one is being offended or their history being abused and used in a political manner.

You had a pretty decent trail with Prester John, but in the exact moment when you say that Mexico state or South America continent is in the shape of a dog silhouette, and the underworld is the western part of the Northern Hemisphere,  not including Siberia (because reasons) and involve Tartaria as a dominant empire in North America continent as the poor guys who had to suffer the oppression of some Roman giants, and the whole of Europe was inhabited by canine dog head people, and that was the real underworld?

Then, I'm sorry, but I'll have to disagree.

This type of reasoning and logic is the exact same type of arguments being put forward in some of KD threads (Tartaria, Napoleon etc). He used to make some big questions regarding history, show some screenshots of articles from Google Books repository, show some maps or paintings of photos no one knew about, making some alternative speculations and coming up with a hidden conclusion which DESTROYS history in the eyes of those that are poorly educated in it.

I know that many things don't add up in history books, but this is no reason to take advantage of it. This is no longer about Stolen History. This is about REWRITING history as someone is clearly trying to benefit from it.

Please, let me go *OFF-TOPIC* for a bit, and I won't touch this argument anymore in posts.

*EXAMPLE: *_Albanian: A Person from Albany, New York, Scotland, or Albania_ *(Mirror)*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I often refer to the inhabitants of Albany, New York as “Albanians.” I did not create this term. The people of Albany, past and present, refer to themselves as “Albanians.” However, when I use this noun outside of New York, I confront misunderstanding from my non-New York listeners and readers who often think I am referring to the people of the Republic of Albania, not Albany.

For whatever reason, I decided to look up “Albanian” in the _Oxford English Dictionary_ last week. To my surprise I found that "Albanian" has 9 definitions, 6 nouns & 3 adjectives.




_Albany, New-York_​
Noun, ca. 1400. _A native or inhabitant of Albania, a country once located in the eastern Caucasus, in the regions that are now Azerbaijan and the southern part of the Republic of Dagestan. _
Noun_. The Caucasian language spoken by this people._
Adjective, ca. 1565. _Of or relating to Scotland or its people; Scottish. Chiefly with references to the time prior to the Scottish Wars of Independence (1296-1357), in later use often in relation to the Scots who settled in what is now western Scotland._



_Albania_​
Noun, ca. 1569. _A native or inhabitant of Albania; a person of Albanian descent. _
Noun_. The Indo-European language spoken in Albania, Kosovo, and parts of Macedonia and Montenegro, and by communities of Albanian descent elsewhere. _
Adjective, ca. 1578. _Of or belonging to the Caucasian country of Albania, its language, or its people._
Noun, ca. 1685. _A native or inhabitant of Scotland; a Scot. Chiefly with reference to the time prior to the Scottish Wars of Independence (1296-1357)._
Adjective, ca. 1593. _Of or relating to Albania, its people, or its language; of or relating to Albanians, or speakers of Albanian living elsewhere._
*Noun, ca. 1689. A native or inhabitant of Albany, New York State.*



_Ireland_​Reading these definitions proved helpful. It helped me realize that I had used the term “Albanian” correctly as a noun and incorrectly as an adjective. I occasionally use “Albanian” as an adjective to describe viewpoints, characteristics, or goods that came from Albany. In the context of my work, I believe I can get away with using the term as an adjective. Perhaps my book, tentatively-titled _America's First Gateway: Albany, N.Y, 1615-1830,_ will cause the OED to add an 10th definition to their entry.

My reading also taught me a new definition. I had not known that I could use “Albanian” to describe someone who lived in Scotland prior to 1296. As I study early America I won’t be able to use this definition often. Still, I will let it sit in the back of my brain as a piece of pub trivia or for when I have the opportunity to impress a medievalist who works on Scotland.

_*Have you ever come across a word that leads to confusion, even when you use it correctly? Please share.*_
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did you see how easy it was to claim the capital of New York State as an Albanian inherited land? It must be, after all the evidence I put forward. People should accept it and go along with it!

Now, if you gentlemen would excuse me, I have a whole State to govern, shelter, secure and ordain according to the divine laws of our Holy Father in the Heavens! I would leave now, and raise the Albanian flag on Albany New York Municipality, because I clearly demonstrated that it is Albanian!

And I!
Busy Baçi!
The first one to rediscover it!
Proclaim myself!

_tada-da-dada...tada-da....tada-dada._.!!!!!!!

IMPERATOR!!!

_*Note:* Those puny mortals which are called my subjects, they better pay me bi-monthly tribute, or they'll be quick to discover the hidden Dictator that is in me._

Bisius Baçius Primus​


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## Silveryou (Jun 20, 2022)

BusyBaci said:


> For whatever reason, I decided to look up “Albanian” in the _Oxford English Dictionary_ last week. To my surprise I found that "Albanian" has 9 definitions, 6 nouns & 3 adjectives.





BusyBaci said:


> Perhaps my book, tentatively-titled _America's First Gateway: Albany, N.Y, 1615-1830,_ will cause the OED to add an 10th definition to their entry.


I give the 11th definition.
Albanians: inhabitants of the now lost (?) city of Arbanum.


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## BusyBaci (Jun 20, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> I give the 11th definition.
> Albanians: inhabitants of the now lost (?) city of Arbanum.


Well, that means more land to be governed by me dear sir. Lool


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## HELLBOY (Jun 20, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> You see HELLBOY, it's now many years that I started reading every sort of alternative narrative related to history and I have to say that most of the time these 'new' narratives bring to absolutely nothing. The first experience I had was with Gene D Matlock, search for him if you don't know who he is. Long story short, it all ends with lenghty identifications of various peoples, myths, symbols and languages one with the other. Chaos is the final outcome.
> So yes, Columbus was Italian, but no he was Spanish, but no he was Portuguese, but no he was a Jew (surprise). He was good but he was bad. We have a 'portrait' identical to the Pope, cool. There are dogs everywhere on coat of arms, cooler.
> 
> What's the end result of this new narratives? None!
> ...


Ok, so I'm going to look for D Matlock to see what his work is about.
Well, I agree that Ari (Ariadna) has a narrative that leaves nothing perhaps, but I did present her sources only that it is impossible for me to put her complete threads as they would be long for a message. I presented Ari's page thinking that maybe you would be interested in taking a look at it, maybe you speak Spanish or translate some of her threads.
She also expresses her feelings about history and judges it as fabricated and with characters out of time and many times she feels that Freemasonry is very involved in this, because of certain symbologies and things like that.
She has interesting titles on Templars and certain medieval and renaissance artists like Da Vinci, from time to time I feel she finds things interesting.


BusyBaci said:


> Now, I really do like to speculate and connect some dots in a conjectural way, but every time I do it, I base my reasoning and logic on the films, video games and other forms of entertainment mediums where I let my imagination go wild and set it free. There is no harm being done there, it's just some entertaining thoughts and no one is being offended or their history being abused and used in a political manner.
> 
> You had a pretty decent trail with Prester John, but in the exact moment when you say that Mexico state or South America continent is in the shape of a dog silhouette, and the underworld is the western part of the Northern Hemisphere,  not including Siberia (because reasons) and involve Tartaria as a dominant empire in North America continent as the poor guys who had to suffer the oppression of some Roman giants, and the whole of Europe was inhabited by canine dog head people, and that was the real underworld?
> 
> ...


I know it is very confusing what I put and it is because you need to go directly to the thread that she (Ari) wrote to understand better, even they are not the only threads dedicated to Prestor John, Columbus, Marco Polo, she has some more.

For example there is an interesting map, atlas prior to the discovery of America: the Catalan Atlas of Abraham Cresques (1375). Kept in the Bibliothèque National de Paris, this map of singular beauty is treasured as one of the "jewels" of medieval cartography.
Catalan Atlas - Wikipedia

But it is on the third plate, the one that presents Asia under the title Delli and Catayo. Most of the data that appear in it, have been extracted from the voyage of Marco Polo and therefore, from the "Book of Wonders".



In fact from Fra Mauro Composite map: Mappemonde Pl. 1-6, Urbano Monte Composite: Tavola 1-60. (Map of the World) (with additional spheres and labels in the four corners)., and more. I understand that they used data from Marco Polo's book to put in the Asian part.

Well .... It is curious to see, as in the extreme South-West of India, there is a drawing... very peculiar.
In it, we can see a king called Colobo, on which a legend that reads:

"From here is lord King Colobo, Christian, province of Columbo."





It is easy to relate the name of the province of this Christian king, with the Italian surname of Christopher Columbus: Colombo.

But surprisingly, Colobo and Colubo were also surnames used to name the discoverer.







Be that as it may, this king finds himself surrounded by three castles. Over them fly flags with red crosses that evoke the Temple, and turtledoves, birds that in the Middle Ages symbolized fidelity.




Given that this Christian kingdom is located in India: Shouldn't this be the mythical Prester John?

Well... moving this part of Asia to South America, something truly surprising happens.
Marking this region in Asia and moving the region to South America, we discover that it coincides with the Peru-Ecuador border (Punta Negra), the region where, according to the Miccinelli Documents, the clashes between the people of Europe and the people of Asia took place.








If it is...it doesn't end here, doesn't the name of the province, Columbo, remind you of something?
COLUMBO-COLOMBO-COLOMBIA
Curiously, today there is no region in India with the name COLUMBO (except for the island of Sri Lanka, which on the Cresques map appears as a distant island with a different king).
However..., the same does not occur in South America, since the present COLOMBIA is located there.
Moreover... for a brief period of time (1821-1831), the former New Kingdom of Granada formed by Colombia, Venezuela, Panama and Ecuador, was known as Gran Colombia. The province of Columbo of King Colobo..., was in its territories.



​


> to involve Tartary as a dominant empire in the continent of North America as the poor people who had to suffer the oppression of some Roman giants.


No, apparently the Tartars of Genghis arrived to present battle from the north, they were the red-bearded giants and came to destroy a people of whites already established in South America, that is based on the Micinelli documents.


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## Silveryou (Jun 20, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> Ok, so I'm going to look for D Matlock to see what his work is about.
> Well, I agree that Ari (Ariadna) has a narrative that leaves nothing perhaps, but I did present her sources only that it is impossible for me to put her complete threads as they would be long for a message. I presented Ari's page thinking that maybe you would be interested in taking a look at it, maybe you speak Spanish or translate some of her threads.
> She also expresses her feelings about history and judges it as fabricated and with characters out of time and many times she feels that Freemasonry is very involved in this, because of certain symbologies and things like that.
> She has interesting titles on Templars and certain medieval and renaissance artists like Da Vinci, from time to time I feel she finds things interesting.


I'm going to read the links you suggest, they seems interesting.

What I meant with my comment is more about the general nature of 'research' in which one has to declare false almost everything in order to let pass a message based on just a few data. I'm certain there have been fabrications throughout history, but I'm always suspicious when it comes to pointing out the guilty one. It seems most people have a sort of interest related to their own identity to prove something, probably to feel better with themselves.
I feel there must be something with America altough my doubts immediately start when everything becomes a stereotypical "Rome...Rome...Rome", without pointing out that they were in fact just Christians. Orthodox Russians took over almost the entire Asian continent and still there's no one saying anything bad about it. Muslims took over a huge chunk of land and they are still at it, but most people keep silent and overall there's nothing bad about it.

I'm still waiting for someone who is capable of explaining things without delving into rethoric and Vatican-Antarctic-Greenland-Switzerland-Lalaland narratives.

edit: sorry, I was forgetting about all various denominations of Protestantism invading the world in the last 400 years. Let's not forget about that.


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## BusyBaci (Jun 20, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> I know it is very confusing what I put and it is because you need to go directly to the thread that she (Ari) wrote to understand better, even they are not the only threads dedicated to Prestor John, Columbus, Marco Polo, she has some more.


I'll take a good look at the map and the info you posted tomorrow, for the moment I'm busy. I apologize. There is a lot you posted in it. But, a good rule of thumb for me is that I don't listen ever to what women say about men's affair like this one. A woman is a woman, they have no business in men's affairs, you and anyone can say whatever you want about this conviction of mine. I just don't care.

Talk to you tomorrow after I've examined your last post. Take care.


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## BusyBaci (Jun 21, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> No, apparently the Tartars of Genghis arrived to present battle from the north, they were the red-bearded giants and came to destroy a people of whites already established in South America, that is based on the Micinelli documents.


The story that Ari is telling is interesting about Prester John being located in now day Colombia. Not to play the devil's advocate, but the mainstream established history has many more facts collected about Prester John being in far East Asia.

For example, Encyclopaedia Britannica describes the battles that Prester John fought and won against the Persians. So in the Colombian scenario, the Tartars of Genghis Khan came from the Bering Strait, into Alaska and stopped in Colombia where they defeated him. That's a hell of a long way going from today Central Asia to go in South America.

Let's say that they really did it. During their invasion of the Americas, if they arrived in Panama and beyond, it means that they had already conquered the whole of the North American continent. There were many riches, cities and land there to be happy to take for granted. Why would they had to go south and risk to be annihilated? This thing doesn't add up to me.

Even though to give you more support, the explanation being given by the mainstream about Prester's John name has it's fallacies like the quote below:



> _The title of the Karakitai rulers was Gur-khan, or Kor-khan, which may have been changed phonetically in Hebrew to Yoḥanan or in Syriac to Yuḥanan, thus producing the Latin Johannes, or John. Though the Gur-khans were Mongol Buddhists, many of their leading subjects were Nestorians, and, according to a report by the Franciscan missionary Willem van Ruysbroeck in 1255, the daughter of the last Gur-khan and wife of King Küchlüg of the Naiman, a Central Asian people, was a Christian. Küchlüg, whose father’s name was Ta-yang Khan (Great King John in Chinese), was defeated by the great Mongol ruler Genghis Khan in 1218._



Going from the name Gur-Khan to the transformation of him into the name John is a leap of faith according to me, there are no similarities between these to names. If Christopher Columbus in 1492 was sailing towards the shores of the far East Asia and he reached North America because that was considered India for the time period, than he was correct in naming it's inhabitants as Indians. He did not make any mistake in this scenario. He was right. It's us that don't know how land masses were called back than, or it could be that the both the Americas were attached with East Asia in one big land mass.

In this scenario, of course, it would make sense for Prester John to be in Colombia and not in Ethiopia because the whole land was called India, where he was believed to be according to different theories on him.


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## Silveryou (Jun 22, 2022)

Twelfth map titled ‘Parte d’Affrica’ by Stefano Bonsignori. The caption on this map is somewhat deteriorated.



​_This part of Africa was unknown to the ancients until the Serene King Don John_ (Ser.no Re don Gio)_, second with this name and thirteenth King of Portugal_ (XIII Re di Portogallo) _discovered it. He discovered it by sea since he desired glory for himself and for the renown great treasures found in the East Indies_ (Indie Orientali)_. And he tried by land at first, sending some of his people to Cairo, who faced danger and lost to the great uneasiness and differences of the..._***_. Not dismayed by these events, nor… hope… treasures_****_, nor the danger... his subjects… wanted… greatest undertaking_*****_. He had his ships sail along the coast… which discovered the western side of the… Good Hope_ (Buona Spanzza)******_. This tip was discovered as if… that were renamed West Indies_ (Indie Occiden.li)*******_. It was first called Turbulent Cape _(C. Fremoso) _because of the great storms. But then, since they had crossed the tip and discovered the Eastern Ocean_ (Oceano Orientale)_, they renamed it of Good Hope in order to fulfill good wishes in finding what they desired, and it’s still its name. And sailing along these coasts they saw that they were inhabited by idolatrous peoples. The Portuguese hold these maritime… where their armies are reduced by the fortunes of war_********_. Its first discoverer was the Portuguese Bartolomeu Dias _(Bartolomeo Dias) _who later found his burial place in these seas together with his ship. But it is nowadays ruled by the Catholic Philip of Austria King of Spain_ (Cattolico Filippo d’Austria Re di Spagna)_, with all the East Indies._

* I suppose the sentence ends saying that the explorers were defeated by climate differences and/or different habits and had to go back or even died.

** Nor losing hope in finding those treasures? Probably something like that.

*** Really hard here. The general sense seems to be that he was ready to do everything in order to reach his objective.

**** The general sense is that his ships sailed along the western African coast untill they discovered the Cape of Good Hope.

***** This sentence seems to anticipate the next one. It seems Bonsignori is saying that the West Indies were previously called with another name.

****** It seems he is talking about the difficulties in keeping the territories discovered with the armies they had.

A basic description of the Portuguese adventures through the oceans.

Here Bonsignori draws a parallel with the discovery of the West Indies, considered to be ‘all the islands in the Antilles, plus The Bahamas and the Turks and Caicos Islands’. But here the sentence is constructed in such a way that it seems as if the discovery of the Cape of Good Hope happened after Columbus’ voyage and discovery of ‘America’. Sadly the text is deteriorated and I cannot fully comprehend what Bonsignori meant with this phrase, but it seems that the West Indies were renamed. Is it something already established?


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## Silveryou (Jun 22, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> For example there is an interesting map, atlas prior to the discovery of America: the Catalan Atlas of Abraham Cresques (1375). Kept in the Bibliothèque National de Paris, this map of singular beauty is treasured as one of the "jewels" of medieval cartography.
> Catalan Atlas - Wikipedia


This is the transcription of the map's content in modern castillian (people have to eventually translate it on their own) and english:
El Atlas Catalán de  Cresques, lo juehu, given to you by my friend @Glaxiatensis
The Cresques Project - Catalan Atlas Legends



HELLBOY said:


> "From here is lord King Colobo, Christian, province of Columbo."


Could it be Colombo in Sri Lanka? Colombo - Wikipedia
Was it named after Christopher Columbus? mmmmmhhhh


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## HELLBOY (Jun 22, 2022)

BusyBaci said:


> The story that Ari is telling is interesting about Prester John being located in now day Colombia. Not to play the devil's advocate, but the mainstream established history has many more facts collected about Prester John being in far East Asia.
> 
> For example, Encyclopaedia Britannica describes the battles that Prester John fought and won against the Persians. So in the Colombian scenario, the Tartars of Genghis Khan came from the Bering Strait, into Alaska and stopped in Colombia where they defeated him. That's a hell of a long way going from today Central Asia to go in South America.
> 
> ...


HB:
There is one in Spain who has a very interesting private library, she argues that America was already known centuries before the discovery, that even one of her ancestors was born in America.
Marco Polo⏤The Apostle Paul?

Luisa Isabel Álvarez de Toledo y Maura (Estoril, 1936)
She is the Marquise of Villafranca del Bierzo, although her life and work revolve around the Duchy of Medina-Sidonia Duke of Medina Sidonia - Wikipedia , a privilege granted to her family in the 15th century, the oldest in the whole Kingdom. Descendant of Alonso Pérez de Guzmán el Bueno Alonso Pérez de Guzmán - Wikipedia       and great-granddaughter of Antonio Maura y Montaner, she owns the most important private archive in Europe.

She lives in the palace of San Lúcar de Barrameda (Cádiz), among Viennese salons and Florentine furniture, although the jewel in her crown is the archive of the Medina-Sidonia Foundation. After recovering the files from a furniture repository in Madrid, he read them, studied them, related them and classified them. He has even translated some of them. He has found some real surprises, so he says that anyone interested in knowing the true history of Spain should access these archives, which compete with those of Medinacelli.

This is an interview they did with him.....

-She was censored and persecuted?

[ Interrupts ] I am censored.

-Do you think that to remove the historical memory is to rekindle the bonfire?

-Historical memory, what really happened at one time or another, whether in the fifteenth century or in the twelfth century, if it is in the documents, it should be known and it should be brought out. What is absurd is to hide the truth; it is simply absurd.

-In his book "Africa versus America. The power of the paradigm" you say that knowing what happened to our ancestors will help us to understand the present situation.

-You see, here there was a tremendous economic crisis, one of the many that have taken place, and even the price of apartments went down. The mechanics of this same crisis occurred in 1564 during the reign of Philip II. I was watching the facts and I predicted "this and this will happen", and nobody believed me. I acted accordingly, that's why I was saved. And then came the crisis. I want to say that there is a series of teachings, of conspiracies, that are lived again. I have lived it, with other consequences, with small variations, but the mechanics is exactly the same, and because I have known it, I have been able to save myself.

-What have you learned living so long living next to the most important private archive in Europe?

-A lot of history: what life was really like in the past, the fables we are told and how that truth has been distorted. I have learned that we were the same as we are, with the same vices, the same virtues and the same ethical values, which are immutable. With respect to America, I have learned, because it is well documented in the papers, that there was no such discovery and that what there is is a confusion. I have also learned that knowing our true role from before, when there was a very close relationship with the American continent, because the door is here, in the Guadalquivir, on the coast of Cadiz and Huelva, would suit us as well as many others, including Muslims. [At the age of twenty, the Duchess inherited an archive of 6,314 files and six million documents that her family kept in a furniture repository in Madrid. She moved them by truck to San Lúcar. It has taken him all his life to classify them. Neither Simancas nor Medinacelli can overshadow this documentary collection.]

-He has found a document that could prove that Guzmán "el Bueno", of whom he is a descendant, comes from "allen mar".

-There is only one document that says where he was from. They have invented the date of his birth, it is not proven anywhere. And that document says that he was "allen mar".

-Does "Allen mar" refer to Africa, to America?

-From the research I have done, I have found a border point in Brazil, there is also the Mexican San Miguel de Allende San Miguel de Allende - Wikipedia and there are a series of toponyms with the allende in America.

-I was surprised: Guzman would have come from America in the 13th century and Columbus discovered it in the 15th century?

-I have looked at more than a thousand documents, many more, in Simancas, in my archive and in other archives. I have 50 documents published on a website, several of them transcribed, so that anyone can read them, but with the original next to it, so that the historian can judge, proving that America was well known and that there was a fluid trade with the continent when Columbus arrived. [Recently, a map has come to light, apparently made by a Chinese navigator, which predates Juan Sebastian "Elcano". Likewise, a Templar cemetery - the "knights of overseas" - has been discovered in Patagonia, which could predate the "discovery" [...].

-There would also be evidence of the arrival of the Templars in America before Columbus.

-The Templars were also there. Perhaps they were the first to trade with the Muslims in an open way with gold. They brought them grain, which is not produced in the tropics, and they were paid in gold. That explains the great boom of the economy in the 13th century, when Europe began to produce a surplus to be able to acquire gold.

-And what do historians say about your contributions?

-Outside is interesting. A lot of press comes to ask about it. Especially since we have published our edition with the transcriptions of the documents for historians. But here they keep quiet. Of course, the documents are there, I did not invent them. [It is necessary to underline that the written works of the Duchess maintain that America was not discovered by Columbus and that the Phoenicians arrived first, since she assures that the American continent was already known at that time by the East and the West.]

-For some people it must be a scourge to hear all this.

-The first time I came across the cake, following a document I had in the archive, I was scared to death, what can I say. Now it doesn't shock me anymore.

-Do you think that this way of transgressing has something to do with the censorship of your writings?

-My works have been published, but in silence, as they say. What has to do with censorship is the obstinacy in not wanting to know the truth. Why? Well, I don't know: pride, arrogance, arrogance, stupidity? There is no other explanation. That depends on the percentage of stupidity and arrogance in power.

-Living among millions of documents must be incredible. It must be the envy of any researcher.

-The man who accesses the history of the archives, in order to be useful, has to know paleography. Otherwise, he is useless. The historian must be the one who knows how to research, relate, read documents and put all this at the service of society.
«Noto decepción entre los que esperan ver a una duquesa con la corona puesta»

I am looking for a declaration of the Duchess Luisa Isabel where she mentions something about the source of gold that did not come from Africa but from America, more precisely in Colombia... In the course of this I found the web site where Dona Isabel has her transcripts.
:::Africa Versus America::.

HB:
I have also thought about those maps of America joined to the Asian continent SH Archive - Continent of North America does not exist... or could it be a part of Asia? , I also remembered a certain title of a certain Johannes Schoner (1477-1547) who affirmed in 1523 that Tenochtitlán, the city conquered by Hernán Cortés two years before, was the Chinese metropolis of Quinsay, the "City of Heaven" described by Marco Polo.
Is Mexico-Tenochtitlan in reality the mythic Quinsay as described by Marco Polo?


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## ViniB (Jun 22, 2022)

I'm quite confused in this thread lol not sure what to make of it so far but it's quite interesting so far


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## Silveryou (Jun 22, 2022)

ViniB said:


> I'm quite confused in this thread lol not sure what to make of it so far but it's quite interesting so far


The thread is not 'linear' as others. it is centered around the captions and the geography/place names on the maps. So you can comment on multiple things and hopefully various conversations can simultaneously be carried on.


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## ViniB (Jun 22, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> The thread is not 'linear' as others. it is centered around the captions and the geography/place names on the maps. So you can comment on multiple things and hopefully various conversations can simultaneously be carried on.


That's why every time i try to read it all again, my mind splits in 50 different lines of tought and lose track of any coherent comment hahahahah 
But my 2 cents on the maps, many religious myths/tales/legends to me is a sign of a good old Vatican cover up. 
But of what i need to dig deeper


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## HELLBOY (Jun 22, 2022)

ViniB said:


> That's why every time i try to read it all again, my mind splits in 50 different lines of tought and lose track of any coherent comment hahahahah
> But my 2 cents on the maps, many religious myths/tales/legends to me is a sign of a good old Vatican cover up.
> But of what i need to dig deeper


HB:
An apology, because I feel that I have diverted a lot this thread of translations of these maps Egnazio Danti (1564-1575) and Stefano Bonsignori (1575-1586) with my comments, this thread is like the thread SH Archive - Tartary - an Empire hidden in history. It was bigger than Russia once... gives for a lot.

In this map titled 'Mauritania' by Stefano Bonsignori.
Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany



> Iapetus (Iapetus) called Atlas, first ruler (Sig.re) of this Province (Province) after the major flood, was son of Noah (Noe) called Sky (Sky) . Hercules (Ercole) passed through here to avenge the death of his father Osiris (Osiri) and killed Antaeus (Antaeus) who ruled it.



It reminded me of the coat of arms of the Canary Islands with the word Oceano on top, Canary Islands - Wikipedia 

The etymology of the word is interesting as I feel it has a relationship with what I said before.
Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany



> The name Canary Islands probably derives from the Latin name Canariae Insulae, meaning "Islands of the Dogs", a name that evidently became generalized from the ancient name of one of these islands, Canaria - presumably Gran Canaria. According to the historian Pliny the Elder, the island Canaria contained "vast multitudes of dogs of very great size."



Other theories speculate that the name comes from the Nukkari Berber tribe that lived in the Moroccan Atlas, named in Roman sources as Canarii, although Pliny again mentions the connection of this term with dogs The connection with dogs is maintained in their representation on the islands' coat of arms. It is considered that the aborigines of Gran Canaria called themselves "canaries". Canary Islands - Wikipedia

HB:
These maps certainly make me feel that both Egyptian and Roman or Greek architecture were parallel and therefore we see is the ruins of Piranesi Egyptian architecture among the mix with Obelisks and Pyramids.
SH Archive - What was Giovanni Battista Piranesi trying to say. 17-18th century apocalypse?

I remember that Piranesi's engravings show a great variety of Pyramids, Obelisks. So they make us wonder if in fact Pyramids and Obelisks were part of the structures of the same culture, along with triumphal arches and "Greco-Roman" styles.
So when I read Herodotus' accounts of the pyramids of Fayum and its labyrinth, a city that turned out to be very famous among Greeks and Romans, perhaps the time frames between Egyptians, Greeks and Romans are not so far apart.
I also met the El Fayum portraits or El Fayum mummy portraits, portraits of mummies to a kind of naturalistic portrait painted on boards of different types of wood or on canvas, covering the face of many mummies from the Roman province of Egypt.
In fact, the El Fayum portraits are the only major body of art of that tradition, with about a thousand specimens, that has survived and continued into the Byzantine and Western traditions in the post-classical world, including the local traditional Coptic iconography. in Egypt.
Is the city of Fayum the reason for the presence of Pyramids and Obelisks in Piranesi's engravings?



> Sufax expanded the state inherited from his father until the Phoenicians (Fenici) disturbed the peace of this people, and the Carthaginians (Cartaginesi) became rulers of a part of it. But then it passed to Roman rule (Romani) with all the Carthaginian territory, and after them appeared many foreign peoples and finally the Saracens (Saracini) , who still rule it today, except the part owned by the Portuguese (Portoghesi) and the Spaniards (Spagniuoli). Although these Saracens are barbarians, they are very fond of virtue and the fine arts, as evidenced by the abundance of public schools present in various parts of this territory.



After Noe alias Heaven, Atlas, Hercules son of Osiris co-existing, then come the Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Romans, to finish with the Saracens that I imagine were the Mamluks, which were made up of Slavic peoples, in fact linked especially with Circassia, a nation that was dedicated to the sale of beautiful women to the Persians, Ottomans, Russians, etc.. Remember that thread about the certain relationship of Circassia and the US Civil War. The Circassian Genocide and the American Civil War. war where Russia seems to have helped Lincoln SH Archive - 1863 Russian involvement in the US Civil War interesting also the US wars with the "Pirate" countries of North Africa Algiers, Tunisia, Libya, Morocco.  The North African states known as the Barbary States First Barbary War - Wikipedia SH Archive Replies - The Circassian Genocide and the American Civil War. 

It was there that I understood the Pirate nation in this Atlas between Morocco, Tripoli, Tunisia, Algeria.
The world against Tartary?


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## Silveryou (Jun 23, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> The connection with dogs is maintained in their representation on the islands' coat of arms. It is considered that the aborigines of Gran Canaria called themselves "canaries".


We have a derogatory word in Italian which is 'canaglia' deriving from Latin canis (canaglia - Wiktionary).



HELLBOY said:


> So when I read Herodotus' accounts of the pyramids of Fayum and its labyrinth, a city that turned out to be very famous among Greeks and Romans, perhaps the time frames between Egyptians, Greeks and Romans are not so far apart.


I totally believe in a shorter chronology. In any case the map of Egypt quite amazingly said that the various Egyptian dynasties were in fact its governments and not a succession of pharaohs related by blood. It seems like Bonsignori copied from Velikovsky improving his opinion (Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany).



HELLBOY said:


> I also met the El Fayum portraits or El Fayum mummy portraits, portraits of mummies to a kind of naturalistic portrait painted on boards of different types of wood or on canvas, covering the face of many mummies from the Roman province of Egypt.
> In fact, the El Fayum portraits are the only major body of art of that tradition, with about a thousand specimens, that has survived and continued into the Byzantine and Western traditions in the post-classical world, including the local traditional Coptic iconography. in Egypt.
> Is the city of Fayum the reason for the presence of Pyramids and Obelisks in Piranesi's engravings?


Those portraits are totally identical to those of Pompeii, imo.



HELLBOY said:


> the Saracens that I imagine were the Mamluks, which were made up of Slavic peoples, in fact linked especially with Circassia, a nation that was dedicated to the sale of beautiful women to the Persians, Ottomans, Russians, etc..


This is Fomenko's opinion, when he says that the Mamelukes were the Cherkassian Cossacks (EMPIRE. History: fiction or science? Volume 5). This is very controversial since he uses names of nations in a very loose way, expecially when he has to make something fit in his own chrono, imo.



HELLBOY said:


> It was there that I understood the Pirate nation in this Atlas between Morocco, Tripoli, Tunisia, Algeria.
> The world against Tartary?


It's fascinating to imagine the Pirates as the Tartarian fleet, but I'm not really sure about Fomenko's reconstruction. It seems very biased to me, expecially when he conflates Russians, Slavs, Muscovites, Tartars and Scythians (and possibly others) as a singular entity without distinction. One has to discard too many things in order to believe that!


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## HELLBOY (Jun 23, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> This is Fomenko's opinion, when he says that the Mamluks were the Cherkassian Cossacks ( EMPIRE. History: fiction or science? Volume 5 ). This is very controversial as he uses the names of nations in a very vague way, especially when he has to make something fit his own chronos, in my opinion.
> 
> It's fascinating to imagine the Pirates as the Tartarian fleet, but I'm not so sure about Fomenko's reconstruction. It seems very skewed to me, especially when it combines Russians, Slavs, Muscovites, Tartars and Scythians (and possibly others) as a singular undistinguished entity. You have to rule out too many things to believe that!



This time I did not rely on Fomenko but on Wikipedia:



> In 1382, the Circassian Mamluks seized the Mamluk throne of Egypt and the Buryid dynasty took over the country. The Mongols, who started invading the Caucasus in 1223, destroyed some of the Circassian territories and most of the Alans. Circassia - Wikipedia



These men were called Pirates perhaps by the victor, because if you notice the type of Hussar Warriors were born as a pirate fighting mode according to wiki.



> According to Webster's dictionary, the word hussar comes from Hungarian huszár, which in turn originates from medieval Serbian husar (Cyrillic: хусар, or gusar, Cyrillic: гусар), meaning bandit (because the tactics of the early hussar shock troops used against the Ottoman army resembled those of bandits; in modern Serbian the meaning of gusar is limited to sea pirate) Hussar - Wikipedia


 
It seems that the Hungarian fighting style spread to other nations such as Poland, Germany, Prussia, Spain, France, Russia, Sweden, Austria, they were in the American war of independence, Mexico, Peru, Chile, Argentina, etc. 
What if it was the type of warrior of the previous order? 











They could also have even better weaponry than we are told.
SH Archive - 18th-19th centuries: Bazookas, Rockets, Comets and Destroyed Cities

This is just a thought of mine, from time to time I like to relate certain things, in Mexico there was another type of warrior called chinaco (from where the famous Mexican charro was born) his ideal partner "la china poblana", another type of warrior was the Dragon de Cuera, the warriors were born here in America who maintained order in North America in California and New Mexico and so on. 
SH Archive - Fou-Sang & 1870s board game: Voyage from New York to San Francisco upon the Union Pacific Railroad




Also in one of the maps I read the word China north of the Aztec capital.

Egnazio Danti (1564-1575)


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## Silveryou (Jun 23, 2022)

Thirteenth map titled ‘Parte dell’Agisimba’ by Stefano Bonsignori.



​_Once Geographers _(Geografi) _used to add to countries they did not know horrible forests, seas impossible to navigate and fierce mountains. The historians gladly helped them by describing more than bestial human habits, very cruel animals and extremely dangerous obstacles, and with all these things they hid the truth and concealed many beautiful countries, depriving of such good news and scaring men from seeking them. And to such fears the opinions of the Philosophers _(Filosofi) _and the Astronomers _(Astronoi) _were added, who didn’t want to be possible to live between the tropics and below the equator due to the extreme heat, and not even within the arctic and antarctic circles due to the extreme cold. And this opinion persisted so much in the minds of men that still in the time of Leo the Tenth Pontifex Maximus _(Lione Decimo Pontefice Massimo) _there were keen debates. And the Philosophers and the Astronomers of that time didn’t want to publicly embrace the truth, which was soon after found by the Portuguese_ (Portoghesi)_. Looking for honour and riches, they passed over the columns placed by Hercules_ (Ercole)_, the very ancient King of Spain_ (Re di Spagna)_, and helped others to do the same. And sailing along these shores, they discovered these beautiful lands and disturbed the peace of these people by building new forts and using them for new arts._

Bonsignori is not ok with stories about Blemmyes and other diverse ‘creatures’ told in ‘medieval’ and ‘ancient’ literature. And he justifies their creation connecting it in some way with the limits imposed by Hercules. Supposedly a measure to prevent people to sail away towards the horizon and discover new lands. The thing that does not add up though is the fact that similar tales were taught about almost every region outside the Mediterranean/European ‘basin’. It seems there was no Hercules to prevent people from leaving in other directions.

In any case we open with some bomb. Bonsignori says the philosophers and astronomers were wrong (and it was settled in his time) when they taught people life was impossible between the tropics, below the equator and… inside the polar circles! Both of them!!! We supposedly are in the year 1580 AD.

And here we have another strange anachronism. Pope Leo X (Pope Leo X - Wikipedia) is called Pontifex Maximus (Pontifex maximus - Wikipedia)!
Now this is very strange since the title of pontiff is still used to refer to bishops in the Catholic Church, but there is no way anybody would use this specific Latin title applied to a Church leader, since that title is explicitely pagan and bore by eminent politicians of the curia, the assembly, term still used today to indicate the ‘spiritual’ body assisting the Pope/Pontiff…
And what about these debates supposedly going on during his time? Nothing to be found.

Finally, what kind of new arts did the Portuguese accomplish through African people? Show your innermost conspiracy facet!


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## Silveryou (Jun 23, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> Also in one of the maps I read the word China north of the Aztec capital.
> 
> Egnazio Danti (1564-1575)


We still have to go there but yes it's China... unless you have a small cute dog in your house which makes a lot of noise!
Which is an interesting aspect in itself... another one. Could China be confused with Chihuahua in some way? You are the Mexican here so you tell me!

For the rest of your points I have the feeling it's not enough. I mean yes there's some interesting digging on your part, like the pirate flag used by cavalry, but I don't know if it leads where I'm imagining it should lead. Maybe we should search for the official explanation and put it under scrutiny. Don't know where to start though.

edit: btw, I almost missed the possible connection with the dogs you always show. If Chihuahua and China are the same then the canine head people (cynocephaly) coulod really be the Chinese as I've always thought. Possible European Latin speaking explorers confused the word China with Latin canis. This combined with the different bone structure of oriental faces compared to Europeans could lead to a misunderstanding, and Chinese faces became canine heads: Chihuahua-China-canis.


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## HELLBOY (Jun 24, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> We still have to go there but yes it's China... unless you have a small cute dog in your house which makes a lot of noise!
> Which is an interesting aspect in itself... another one. Could China be confused with Chihuahua in some way? You are the Mexican here so you tell me!
> 
> For the rest of your points I have the feeling it's not enough. I mean yes there's some interesting digging on your part, like the pirate flag used by cavalry, but I don't know if it leads where I'm imagining it should lead. Maybe we should search for the official explanation and put it under scrutiny. Don't know where to start though.
> ...



I don't really know why that place is called Chinao, but it is between Mexico City and San Miguel de Allende as far as I can see. It shouldn't be too far from Guanajuato or Jalisco, I also found the name on the Urbano Monte Map.
Composite: Tavola 1-60. (Map of the World) (with additional spheres and labels in the four corners).







In the red text with the letter B, it seems to me that it says that the people there are very hairless and beardless, just like the dog in this same region. The Xoloitzcuintle Xoloitzcuintle - Wikipedia is a very special type of dog in America.



> Xolotl volunteered to perform such a feat, even though it would involve transforming himself into a dog; the Xoloitzcuintle. Xolotl was represented as a man with the head of a dog, representing the face of the nocturnal Venus accompanying the sun on its journey to the underworld. After sunset, the sun died and fought with his help to be reborn at dawn. Since then, this animal became the favorite of the gods. When the goal was achieved, it appeared before the dreadful Mictlantecuhtli, the lord of Death, and gave him the prized bone. Then, the Xoloitzcuintle returned to the world of the living and the gods were able to create the first man and the first woman. The Mexica tradition pointed out that it had to be completely black, because if it presented stains on its body, this meant that it had already served the soul of another deceased person. In addition, for the Mexica people, the Xoloitzcuintle had the ability to ward off and protect homes from evil spirits, but as everything for them was duality, it also represented an evil side since it was identified with illness and physical deformities.




In the yellow area with the letter A it says that the people there eat human flesh and all kinds of animals.


In letter C it says that in that place there were trees so big that ships were made from a single piece of wood.



> By the way, I almost missed the possible connection with the dogs that you always show.



Something similar that I found could be this information:

The Chichimeca people in the north of Mexico, it is supposed that the Chichimecas arrived at Tollan (Tula) where a priest who was called Quetzalcoatl reigned like their god, the Chichimecas were commanded by a warrior named Xolotl, curiously he was called the same as the god of death and the underworld and brother of Quetzalcoatl.



> The Nahuatl name Chīchīmēcah (plural, pronounced [tʃiːtʃiːˈmeːkaʔ]; singular Chīchīmēcatl) means "inhabitants of Chichiman," Chichiman meaning "area of milk." It is sometimes said to be related to chichi "dog"  Chichimeca - Wikipedia



Quetzalcoatl being the god of light, fertility, civilization, knowledge, the opposite of Xolotl. And everything points to the fact that there was a light-darkness duality before the arrival of the Mexica-Aztecs.
You can see how even Quetzalcoatl is represented with the face of a dog or very deformed and his skin is sometimes blue and bearded, both carrying a cross.
I had already shared a thread about Xolotl and Quetzalcoatl the brothers, the duality. This duality reminded me of blue Krishna and his dark skinned brother.
The secret of the twins Quetzalcoatl and Xolotl
The secret of the twins Quetzalcoatl and Xolotl





QUETZALCOATL
​



QUETZALCOATL - XOLOTL
​I had the opportunity to read the book: Historia general de las cosas de Nueva España, they were direct impressions to the book and not PDF which I have not been able to find. Florentine Codex - Wikipedia

Where it talked about Quetzalcoatl, it said that first came the Chichimecs who later called themselves Toltecs which meant "great builders", which in wiki says something like this:



> Toltec culture or Toltec civilization - term of Nahuatl origin that has several meanings, the main ones being 'dweller(s) of Tollan/Tula' ('Place of tules') or 'artist, civilized, master' (their self-designation is unknown). Toltec - Wikipedia



It is supposed that the Toltecs are the ones who gave civilization and knowledge to the warlike Aztecs, in fact it is said that the first Tlatoani or King, Emperor was Toltec, Acamapichtli.



> In 1366 the Tepanec king Acolnahuacatl, in order to ensure the loyalty of the Mexica, accepts Acamapichtli (who was a Colhua prince of Coatlichan) on the throne of Tenochtitlan, thus initiating a new lineage for the latter city, which in turn will be proclaimed heir to the Toltec tradition. Acamapichtli - Wikipedia



I still remember describing these Toltec-Chichimecs as being the size of two men, big runners, who did not speak Nahuatl well and were rather ladino.

During the conquest, the Chichimecas were supposed to still rule the north of Mexico and actually all the people of the north were called Chichimecas because they were barbarians.

José de Acosta José de Acosta - Wikipedia , a Spanish Jesuit, anthropologist and naturalist who landed in America in 1571, for example, wrote in his Historia Natural de las Indias that the Chichimecas, the native peoples who occupied part of Mexico and reached as far as Potosí, were giants "who plucked the branches of the trees as we pluck lettuce".

CUAXÓLOTL, A CHICHIMECA DEITY?
Tonalámatl de Aubin (book of the tonalli or destinies of mystical character, that was property of the French collector Joseph Marius Alexis Aubin, Although they share their main assignment to Xólotl, deity of the pantheon of the Nahua, each one of them presents variants that show a great challenge of interpretation.
Xólotl, in his invocation of Cuaxólotl (head of Xólotl) with the Chichimecas and with the warlike activities.
Cuaxólotl, ¿una deidad chichimeca?





About san cristobal there are also interesting things like this:

He is venerated by both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as a martyr executed during the reign of Decius (Decius), emperor of Rome (who reigned from 249 to 251) or during the reign of the Roman emperor Maximinus Daya (Maximinus II Dacianus) (who reigned from 308 to 313).
Saint Christopher - Wikipedia

Catholics do not call him a dog's head but it is said that he had a hideous face.






His name means "bearer of Christ".

His famous legend, which is known especially in the West and could have been drawn from ancient Greek mythology (it would be the Christianization of the boat of Charon), I found some Etruscan murals where demons (blue) and angels appear, Caronte appears in a very peculiar way.












The Tomb of the Blue Demons (Italian: Tomba dei Demoni Azzurri) is an Etruscan tomb in the Necropolis of Monterozzi near Tarquinia, Italy. It was discovered in 1985. The tomb is named after the blue and black-skinned demons that appear in a scene of the underworld.







Charon, the Greek ferryman of the dead.

According to the legendary account of his life, Christopher was initially called Reprobus.
He was a Canaanite of 5 cubits in height (about 2.30 meters) and a fearsome face. After serving in the kingdom of Canaan, it occurred to him to go serve "the greatest king that ever lived." He went to serve the king who had the reputation of being the greatest but one day he saw that this king was sanctifying himself at the mention of the devil, But when he saw that his new master was turning away from a cross on the road he realized that he was afraid of Christ. A hermit then suggested to him that, because of his great size and strength, he could help Christ by helping people cross a dangerous river where people used to perish in the attempt. The hermit promised him that such service would please Christ.

St. Christopher is a very popular saint, especially for athletes, sailors and travelers (Christopher Columbus).

St. Christopher is the patron saint of many cities and towns around the world, including:

America and the Caribbean:

San Cristobal de las Casas (Mexico).
San Cristóbal de Alvarado (present-day Alvarado, Veracruz, Mexico).
San Cristóbal de Tlacotalpan (present-day Tlacotalpan, Veracruz, Mexico).
Locality of San Cristóbal (Bogotá, Colombia).
San Cristobal (Dominican Republic).
San Cristobal (Venezuela).
City of Jayaque, La Libertad (El Salvador).
District of Chepo (Panama).
St. Kitts Island (St. Kitts and Nevis).
Havana (Cuba).

Birthplace Unknown
Canaan (according to Catholic tradition).
Marmarica (according to the tradition of the Orthodox Church)



> In the Gospel of St. Matthew (15:21-28) we see how Jesus worked a marvelous miracle for a Canaanite woman who insisted that he help her. In this story, we are presented with the story of a Canaanite woman, a Gentile and a foreigner, and for this reason she is despised and rejected by the Jews. But this does not bother Jesus, rather he attends to her, but only after a series of constant pleas. Jesus ends up comparing her to a little dog, but did Jesus insult the Canaanite woman by comparing her to a little pet? ¿Jesús insultó a la Mujer Cananea al compararla con un perrito?



a pagan Canaanite woman cried out to him in Jewish terms, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, son of David! My daughter has a very bad demon."
"My hour has not yet come." But the woman has great faith. She called Jesus "Lord" three times. It is a faith that is not only manifested in words but in action: "She came to prostrate herself before Jesus". Jesus resists: he does not want to be accused by the Jews of privileging the pagans, and he tells her: "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs".

HB:
All these things I present to you about Blemios, Cinocephalos, could be the way people referred to the Cananites for being Can (dog) although Kan in Maya is Snake. Above all, this medieval costumes very well documented by Greek and Roman historians, did they exist or not? what do you say? I only share with you this interesting data and similarities without doubt, you see Piri Reis putting Blemios and Cinocephalos in the Amazon. Maybe in the medieval era they did as Isabel de Toledo says, the American continent was more than known but at the same time it was a well kept secret among the elite, that's why they said that the gold was brought from Africa, Africa was America, more precisely from the gold mines of Castilla in Colombia.

SH Archive - Sodom and Gomorrah are at the bottom of the Dead Sea










​


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## Silveryou (Jun 24, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> In the red text with the letter B, it seems to me that it says that the people there are very hairless and beardless, just like the dog in this same region. The Xoloitzcuintle Xoloitzcuintle - Wikipedia is a very special type of dog in America.


The text doesn't talk about dogs though.



HELLBOY said:


> All these things I present to you about Blemios, Cinocephalos, could be the way people referred to the Cananites for being Can (dog) although Kan in Maya is Snake. Above all, this medieval costumes very well documented by Greek and Roman historians, did they exist or not? what do you say?


To me it's still not enough. I see the path you are taking and hope it will lead somewhere.
The fact is that these ancient-medieval tales are not consistent and I also have doubts about the timeframe in which they were told.


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## Silveryou (Jun 24, 2022)

Fourteenth map without a title (but it’s the Polar lands ‘imagined’ above Greenland) by Stefano Bonsignori. This one is in Latin so don’t expect a 1:1 translation.



​Land on the left:

_This channel has three accesses, every year it remains frozen for about three months. Its width is of 37 leagues._
_This island is the best and healthiest of all the northern lands._

Land on the right:

_Here are the Pygmies_ (Pigmei) _who are four feet tall as those that in Greenland_ (Gronlandia) _are called Skraelings _(Serelirgers)_._

It makes sense to me that we are more or less talking about the territory nowadays called Nunavut (Nunavut - Wikipedia), inhabited by Inuit people, once called Skraelings by Europeans. The island inhabited by the Skraelings could be Ellesmere Island (Ellesmere Island - Wikipedia).
Since the island on the left is the healthiest, it must be the one where King Arthur led his expedition in order to colonise it, nowadays considered a fable.
The width of the channel, said to be 37 leagues (Roman leagues presumably), should be of about 82 km (51 miles).



​So where is the very high black rock/cliff (Rupes nigra et altissima)?

Let me know if it makes sense to you or if we are talking about submerged lands.


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## Silveryou (Jun 25, 2022)

Fifteenth map without a title (but it’s the Polar lands ‘imagined’ on top of Siberia) by Stefano Bonsignori. This one is partially in Latin so don’t expect a 1:1 translation. The main text is in Italian though.



​Land on the left:

_Here live the Pygmies_ (Pigmei) _who are four feet tall as those that in Greenland_ (Gronlandia) _are called Skraelings_ (Serelirgers)_._
_The northern lands were unknown until Arthur the Briton_ (Arturo Brittanno)_, being informed about them, sent people to live there in the year of our Lord 1364_ (S.re MCCCLXIIII)_, as it’s told by Jacobus Cnoyen from 's-Hertogenbosch_ (Iacopo Cnoien Buscoducente)_, who heard it in person from a priest working for the King of Norway_ (Re di Noruegia)_, who told him that in the year 1360_ (MCCCLX) _a certain English_ (Anglo) _minorite mathematician ascended to these islands and measured everything with the astrolabe and described it with those calculations. Gerald of Wales_ (Giraldo Cambrense) _wrote these things and many others too in his book titled De mirabilibus Hiberniae et miraculis_ (De Mirabilibe Ibernie)***.
Land on the right:

_In the northern parts there are the islands of Bargu that Marcus Venetus_ (M.s Ven.us)****_, in Book 1, Chapter 61_ (Lib. j Cap.o LXI)_, states are looking North _(Aquiloem)_, so much that the pole star is seen to go down towards the south._

* According to the Italian wiki, this is just the second part (distinctio) of the book titled ‘Topographia Hibernica’ (Topographia Hibernica - Wikipedia). As a side note, a book by the same title 'De mirabilibus Hiberniae' was written by a certain Gilla Pátraic, also known as Patricius (Gilla Pátraic - Wikipedia).

** Marco Polo.

Many interesting things to say here as well.

We have a thread about the travels of Arthur in the polar regions (King Arthur in Hyperborea & The Arctic Mud Flood Cataclysm. - SH Archive Replies - King Arthur in Hyperborea & The Arctic Mud Flood Cataclysm.).
The interesting thing the map says is that Gerald of Wales (Gerald of Wales - Wikipedia) related these events in his ‘Topographia Hibernica’. How could Gerald, who died according to our chrono in 1223 AD, write about events happened in 1364 AD? It is said that Jacobus Cnoyen originally talked about it in his now lost book titled ‘Inventio Fortunata’, so Gerald has to be a later author. What’s the problem with our chronology?

That’s not all. Bonsignori lets us know that Marco Polo talked about the Bargu Islands in his famous book of his voyages. But he makes a stupid mistake that a hidden hand ‘corrected’ upon the map, as teachers do (did?) at school with their red pen (at least in Italy!). The teacher here tells us that Marco Polo talked about the ‘Bargu plains’ (not even islands, as Bonsignori says) in his Book 1, Chapter 49, while ignorant Bonsignori thinks it’s Book 1, Chapter 61. Nowadays Book 1 contains 55 Chapters.
Is it possible that some chapters of the original ouvre were ‘lost’?
… or maybe erased!







The description given about the position of these islands somewhat confirms my thoughts. Here Polo says that one can reach the Islands from Siberia, until at a certain point the pole star ‘goes south’. It could very well be a description of how, having reached the north pole and surpassed it coming from Siberia, one leaves behind the north star which therefore ‘goes south’, it 'goes down' towards the horizon (obviously it's not the north star going south, but the voyager who moves south after passing the pole). This could be a confirmation of the identity of these islands with the Nunavut Islands.


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## EUAFU (Jun 25, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Stefano Bonsignori and Ignazio Danti were two central Italian cartographers from the sixteenth century. Their maps are located in Palazzo Vecchio, Florence.
> 
> About these maps it is officially said: “Of the 53 maps eventually completed, 30 were painted by Dominican friar Egnazio Danti (1564-1575) and 23 by Olivetan monk Stefano Bonsignori (1575-1586). Twenty-seven were taken from Ptolemy's _Geographia_ (2nd century AD) though they were updated to reflect contemporary writing, while the others, including those of America, were taken from a variety of more recent sources.”
> (Hall of Geographical Maps)
> ...


"So I have two questions:
1. were deutch people really descended from Noah?
2. why should I believe in the identification of Deutch (Tuisto) with Ashkenaz, which apparently happened only in the 18th century?"

Noah and most of the Biblical characters are fictional. They never existed beyond mythology. Therefore, they cannot establish any descent.

Most of the Biblical text was written between 500 or 700 years before Jesus Christ.

And most of the texts have very clear and ideological objectives and fit into the culture of the time.

That people discuss these characters as if they were real is interesting, but will not produce real results. I also once believed that characters such as Noah, Moses, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob, David, Solomon were real, but by doing a little research and exegesis one comes to the conclusion that they are mythological characters.


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## Silveryou (Jun 25, 2022)

EUAFU said:


> That people discuss these characters as if they were real is interesting, but will not produce real results. I also once believed that characters such as Noah, Moses, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob, David, Solomon were real, but by doing a little research and exegesis one comes to the conclusion that they are mythological characters.


Same is true for any character in our books though. They are ink on paper, or paintings, or statues. By this reasoning one should throw everything in the trash can! Which is something somebody is already doing. I think it's just a matter of taste (not mine, to be fair).


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## EUAFU (Jun 25, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Same is true for any character in our books though. They are ink on paper, or paintings, or statues. By this reasoning one should throw everything in the trash can! Which is something somebody is already doing. I think it's just a matter of taste (not mine, to be fair).


This is what research and exegesis shows.
If one starts from a false premise one will find nothing but falsehoods.

The Bible is a mythological book, written to explain phenomena that people of the time did not understand, but mainly to force people to accept the status quo.

A clear example is the story of "Noah's drunkenness". It is just a story to explain why it would be lawful to hate/slave/kill Canaanites, because they were descended from Ham. Pure mythology.

Adam and Eve? Pure mythology.  The same with Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, David and others.

So it's best to leave mythology aside and look for real facts, because starting from the Biblical text (as if they were historical texts) you can't even come close to finding the truth.


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## Silveryou (Jun 25, 2022)

I partially agree with you, but I think it's not enough. I've seen multiple explanations of what the Bible is or should be. Here is another point of view and not very biased so far. Bonsignori doesn't teach lessons to anybody. Yes the moralistic lessons could be in the background, but it's mainly about history and movements of people, wheteher true or not. And Hercules doesn't appear in the Bible!
Btw, you probably just looked at the first map, but there's more. We arrived now at the fifteenth. Tke a look at the others. Something could be interesting to you. Bye


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## ViniB (Jun 25, 2022)

EUAFU said:


> This is what research and exegesis shows.
> If one starts from a false premise one will find nothing but falsehoods.
> 
> The Bible is a mythological book, written to explain phenomena that people of the time did not understand, but mainly to force people to accept the status quo.
> ...


We can't even be sure when it was written! Last time i checked the oldest copies kept in the Vatican are from between 1500s-1600s if we were to believe them


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## Silveryou (Jun 25, 2022)

ViniB said:


> We can't even be sure when it was written! Last time i checked the oldest copies kept in the Vatican are from between 1500s-1600s if we were to believe them


I'm sure the oldest is said to be from the 1400s.


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## Safranek (Jun 25, 2022)

EUAFU said:


> "So I have two questions:
> 1. were deutch people really descended from Noah?
> 2. why should I believe in the identification of Deutch (Tuisto) with Ashkenaz, which apparently happened only in the 18th century?"
> 
> Noah and most of the Biblical characters are fictional. They never existed beyond mythology. Therefore, they cannot establish any descent.


According to my latest research, partially thanks to some leads in this thread:

1. Yes, very possibly.
2. Because there are some primary sources (granted likely in an 'edited' form) that seem to confirm this.

Regarding the Biblical characters being fictional, I much arrived at the same conclusion as you, but digging deeper, I am starting to have my doubts.

How I now see it;         The Bible is a partially edited and partially made up historical text.

What is it that made me change my mind?

The unfolding correlations between the characters, locations and the 'stories' attributed to them. By unfolding correlations I mean the possible if not probable connections made by some historians when comparing primary sources of different cultures/nations concerning either the same time, event and location. One of the main elements of confusion is the fact that the Greeks and Romans (where most western sources come from) had different names for the characters and people from what they called themselves, and non-western sources also seemed to alter these, however to less of an extent.

For instance, would any of us have considered that the Egyptians actually got their writing from the Scythians? Not likely, as if it is so, most evidence regarding that possibility has been either erased from history or is hidden somewhere in the Vatican library or some other similar place.

Here are two examples (and I'm sure not the only ones) of how it was done:

I suggest reading the whole letter for a better overview of the situation, only a few pages long. My personal take from that letter is that some Jesuit priests may have actually been doing good work and may not have been aware of the overall scheme of things as conducted by the upper echelon of the Jesuits. Maybe, if they all took the oath, they may all have been in on it. However, we can't know that for sure by reader the letter.

Burning Books, Erasing Memories

The second example concerns the 'replacement' of a certain Egyptian Bust Idol found in Turin possibly to hide any connection from Egypt to China, as that path would lead to the Caucasus via the Huns right to Magog, Japhet and directly of indirectly to Noah and the alleged location of the Ark (I will say more on this in future when time allows as I'm struggling with the source I've found regarding this matter);












Anyone interested in reading on for the full story (only a couple of more pages) on how this type of business was taken care of via credible 'witnesses' and 'authorities' can read here from page 130:

https://ia903107.us.archive.org/30/items/s25id13210510/s25id13210510.pdf

More input later. If any may be considered not relevant to the thread, we can move it upon request.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Here's what I found about Tuisco and Annius of Viterbo, in the source below, translated (best as I could) from Hungarian. The book was written in 1817 and is entitled "*From the Magyar Magog Patriarch to King Stephen I.*" _by Ádám Horváth_.

The book is hard to read for me (as Magyar is not my native language), I have to read passages many times to get coherence out of it, but its totally based on primary Greek, Roman, Biblical and Chinese sources, where the author makes a valiant attempt to piece together the Magyar origins based on what he finds in them. These lead him to Noah and he does his best to piece together the historical lands, conquests, kinship to other nations, etc. from the origin - Noah - to King Stephen I. of Hungary (the one who ordained the destruction of all literature written with Scythian letters).

Excerpt:


> _Furthermore, those who wish to originate the Huns to be descendants of the German Tuisko, the fields of Babylon, or even from one of their friends/comrades/kin who moved out of Armenia, base their opinions on the fictitious Berosus. It’s worthy to note that the fictitious Berosus himself, or Annius of Viterbo (a) attributes 11 sons to Tuisko, whose names are Mannus, Ingaevon, Istaevon, Herminon, Marsus, Gambrivius, Svevus, Vandalus, Hunnus, Hercules, Teutanes; additionally, Franc, Irenicus, Albert Crantz and Melchior Inchofer state similar. On the contrary, Joh. Aventin 1512 (b) and Wolfgang Lazius 1560 from Tacitus (de Situ et Moribus Germanorum) (c) declare Ingaevo, Herminon and Istaevo to be Mannus’ sons, and the grandson of Tuisco or Tuisto according to Tacitus.
> 
> Aventin L1. p. 36-44 attributes 4 sons to Hercules, named Noricus, Hunnus, Helveticus and Bojus, and he gives Sarmatia and Eastern Germania to this Hunnus, not the one who is Tuisko’s son according to Annius, and originates the Huns from him._
> 
> ...



Here I stopped trying to translate as it is too difficult so I will summarize the best I can what the author, in the next few paragraphs states;

 that Aventis misquoted Tacitus and proceeds to offer the correct quote from Plinius. He asserts that Aventin’s story of 11 to even 20 Nations originating the Germans is actually only 5 according to Plinius L. IV. c. 14, where he states them as 1. Vindelici 2. Ingaevones 3. Istaevones 4. Hermiones and 5. Peucini Basternae Dacis contermini; _of which we can find 3 in the writings of the fictitious Berosus and thereby Annius, who based his writing on credible sources, increased the number of tribes to 11 and others to 20 from his work, thereby mixing up the Nations._

He later goes on to explain that the _actual Berosus_ was actually a reliable source well respected by Joseph Flavius but that Annius of Viterbo added and changed some of his writings as Tiusco is not even mentioned by him despite mentioning lesser names. So from his commentary I get that Annius bastardized Besorus’ writings and either wrote under or attributed false narratives to his name or both. However, the author does mention that some of what Annius included is possibly based on the truth of the _actual Besorus_ writings.

The author also states that Noah was likely also Janus and that according to tradition Tuisco had two brothers, Scythian Priscus and Sam or Samus. He also mentions that accordingly, Tuisco could likely be Japhet, while Scythian Priscus could be Shem, and Sam could be Kam.

On a separate note, @Silveryou, you mentioned that you did a chronological timeline a while back. The author of the book also calculated his own timeline starting on p. 79 and I'm curious what you think about it and to what extent it corresponds with yours. Of course, this means that I (or hopefully someone else who is a native Magyar speaker) translate it. Chronology is another important key to the puzzle.


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## Silveryou (Jun 26, 2022)

Safranek said:


> that Aventis misquoted Tacitus and proceeds to offer the correct quote from Plinius. He asserts that Aventin’s story of 11 to even 20 Nations originating the Germans is actually only 5 according to Plinius L. IV. c. 14, where he states them as 1. Vindelici 2. Ingaevones 3. Istaevones 4. Hermiones and 5. Peucini Basternae Dacis contermini; _of which we can find 3 in the writings of the fictitious Berosus and thereby Annius, who based his writing on credible sources, increased the number of tribes to 11 and others to 20 from his work, thereby mixing up the Nations._
> 
> He later goes on to explain that the _actual Berosus_ was actually a reliable source well respected by Joseph Flavius but that Annius of Viterbo added and changed some of his writings as Tiusco is not even mentioned by him despite mentioning lesser names. So from his commentary I get that Annius bastardized Besorus’ writings and either wrote under or attributed false narratives to his name or both. However, the author does mention that some of what Annius included is possibly based on the truth of the _actual Besorus_ writings.
> 
> The author also states that Noah was likely also Janus and that according to tradition Tuisco had two brothers, Scythian Priscus and Sam or Samus. He also mentions that accordingly, Tuisco could likely be Japhet, while Scythian Priscus could be Shem, and Sam could be Kam.


I feel like (and I know for a fact on various occasions) multiple versions of the same book were in existence. It' difficult to say if it was these authors themselves who modified the texts or if it was already done by others previously. It's like the hidden hand who wrote 49 upon LXI on the map by Bonsignori. Hard to tell who did it. Someone could probably say it was Bonsignori himself in order to settle the question.



Safranek said:


> On a separate note, @Silveryou, you mentioned that you did a chronological timeline a while back. The author of the book also calculated his own timeline starting on p. 79 and I'm curious what you think about it and to what extent it corresponds with yours. Of course, this means that I (or hopefully someone else who is a native Magyar speaker) translate it. Chronology is another important key to the puzzle.


I started doing it and then left it inconcluded 'cause I ran into various problems I didn't consider initially. It was an attempt of running various timelines side by side.
In the meantime you can enjoy what I discovered yesterday. Mercator was not only a cartographer but a chronologist too and in his chrono tables he places Moses and Aaron in the 8th century AD. Here the table already at the year785, where it's written:


> *Aaron, Moysi fratri, succedit*


Aaron succeeds to his brother Moses!* Year 785 ad!*
Chronologia hoc est Temporum demonstratio exactissima ab initio mundi usque ad annum Domini M.D.LXVIII ... / auctore Gerardo Mercatore...



Safranek said:


> Here I stopped trying to translate as it is too difficult so I will summarize the best I can what the author, in the next few paragraphs states;


If it was difficult to you, imagine what was it like to me, LOL


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## Silveryou (Jun 27, 2022)

Sixteenth map without a title (but it’s the Polar lands ‘imagined’ on top of the Bay of Hudson) by Stefano Bonsignori. This one is partially in Latin so don’t expect a 1:1 translation. The main text is in Italian though.



​Land on the left:

_The Northern_ (Settentrione) _parts are so far from us that few are those who wrote about them. They say the King of Norway_ (Re di Noruegia) _having heard about it, sent people there to live, having been told by a certain priest who was at his service, who said he went there. This happened in the year of our Lord_ (S.re) _1364. And before that it was known that a certain Practicing Minorite_ (Minorita Osservante) _and mathematician went to these islands and, as Jacobus _(Iacopo)_ Cnoyen tells, described and measured with the astrolabe, as if it was a description with words, the place and the four_ (4) _channels which flow with such speed towards the North_ (Sette.ne) _that ships which enter cannot absolutely turn back since they are caught by an inner whirlpool. Gerald of Wales_ (Giraldo Cambrese) _tells the same things in the book about the admirable things of Ireland_ (Ibernia)_._
Land on the right:

_This channel has five accesses and due to its narrowness and the rapidity of its flow it never freezes._
So here it is made clear that King Arthur was none other than the King of Norway!
Sorry British people, LOL!!!

The rest of the description is the same told in the previous map, apart from the peculiar climate of this channel.

The American continent is labeled ‘Northern Part of new India’.

By the way, I'm using as a subtitle what you can read on the description given in Google Arts & Culture (Polar lands imagined on top of the Bay of Hudson - Stefano Bonsignori - Google Arts & Culture):



_*IMAGINED*_​They are so stupid in their conformism that they don't even realize that north of the Hudson Bay there are in fact hundreds of islands!!!

edit: If Arthur was Norwegian, than the mythical Avalon could very well be Britain-Albion (Albion - Wikipedia).


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## Safranek (Jun 27, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Mercator was not only a cartographer but a chronologist too and in his chrono tables he places Moses and Aaron in the 8th century AD.


This thread get more confusing with each map and related commentary. I find it strange that despite looking at numerous Mercator maps, this is the first instance of finding one of his chronologies. So we have Scaliger's), Newton's, Fomenko's and now we become exposed to Mercator's.

We have claims of Jerusalem or the Holy Land in Palestine, Russia, France and California.

We have primary sources from Rome, Greece, China, India, Judah/Israel, Egypt, Arabia and Europe which only partially correspond in chronology or not at all, and which primary sources are only 'copies' (read altered or invented) in most cases, and in which the 'characters' (names and peoples) are named in various ways by others according to their current whim based on names of leaders, locations or other attributes.

We have proof of the massive destruction of ancient books and alphabets and the 'editing for accuracy and congruence' of those that have been allowed to survive into our times.

What 'hard' evidence we had through archeological finds has been destroyed, covered up and stashed away by entities such as the Vatican, Smithsonian, etc., and 'scientific' bodies have been created and maintained to steer us away from any possible connections we may find.

Linguistics was blatantly hijacked to purposely obscure what would otherwise be obvious to an individual with common sense, not to mention a linguist, via the incorrect classification of languages, which much like archeology, can't be made to go away overnight. It took several hundred years in the Americas.

We have a blatant removal of the philosophies as taught by our ancient ancestors to be replaced with blind belief in religious systems which have all been either created or infiltrated shortly after their popularity and none of which would be able to defend the accuracy of their claims historically, archeologically or by any true scientific means. Celsus's worst fears came true.

Despite all these seemingly insurmountable difficulties, there must be a way to sift through the data and determine a most likely logical and probable sequence of causes and events.


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## ViniB (Jun 28, 2022)

Safranek said:


> This thread get more confusing with each map and related commentary. I find it strange that despite looking at numerous Mercator maps, this is the first instance of finding one of his chronologies. So we have Scaliger's), Newton's, Fomenko's and now we become exposed to Mercator's.
> 
> We have claims of Jerusalem or the Holy Land in Palestine, Russia, France and California.
> 
> ...


Good lord! Didn't know you could read my mind XD That's kinda what i was thinking but coudn't express


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## Silveryou (Jun 28, 2022)

Seventeenth map without a title (but it’s the Polar lands ‘imagined’ on top of the strait of Bering) by Stefano Bonsignori. This one is partially in Latin so don’t expect a 1:1 translation. The main text is in Italian though.



​_In the northern parts there are the islands of Bargu_ (Bargu Insule) _that the Venetian Marco Polo_ (m.us polus ven.us)_, in his first book Chapter 61_ (lib. p.o Cap,o 6i) _states are looking North_ (Aqlonem)_ so much that the pole star is seen to go down towards the south.

The Ocean_ (Oceanus)_, entering these islands with 19_ (XIX)*** _accesses, creates four _(4)_ channels flowing north without interruption and here it gets absorbed by the bowels of the earth. The Rock_ (Rupes) _at the pole has a circumference of 33_ (XXXIII) _leagues.

* _Various translations report a 19 (XIX). The number on the map is not very clear. Is it something else?


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## iseidon (Jun 29, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Eleventh map titled ‘Mauritania’ by Stefano Bonsignori.
> 
> View attachment 23418​_In their tales the ancients stated that the mount Atlas_ (Atlante)_ reached the sky with its summit, meaning that Iapetus_ (Iapeto) _called Atlas, first ruler _(Sig.re) _of this Province_ (Provincia) _after the greater flood, was the son of Noah_ (Noe) _called Sky_ (Cielo)_. Here Hercules _(Ercole) _passed there to avenge his father Osiris’_ (Osiri) _death and killed Antaeus _(Anteo) _who ruled over it, from whose wife Tinjis_ (Tingena)_ had a son called Sufax_ (Siface)_. Hercules built the City of Tangier_ (Citta Tingena) _from which the Province took its name, while the remnant parts were given their names by the Caesars_ (Cesari)_. Sufax expanded the state inherited from his father until the Phoenicians _(Fenici) _disturbed the peace of these people, and the Carthaginians_ (Cartaginesi) _became rulers of a part of it. But then it passed under the Roman_ (Romani)_ rule with all the Carthaginian territory, and after them many foreign people appeared and lastly the Saracens_ (Saracini)_, still ruling it today, except for that part owned by the Portuguese_ (Portoghesi) _and the Spaniards_ (Spagniuoli)_. Even though these Saracens are barbarians, they hold dear virtue and fine arts, which is proved by the abundance of public schools present in various places of this territory._
> 
> This map provides more ‘historical mythology’ for us to read. It will be useful to do a summary at the end with all the various identifications. Here Noah is obviously called Sky, Uranus, since he was presumably castrated by his son Ham (or Canaan), identified with Cronus/Saturn.


It's a great old map. In terms of a simplified demonstration of mountain ranges and river systems. I have a hypothesis according to which the present deserts (including the Sahara) are the man-made result of the man-made partial destruction of man-made mountain chains (water-bearing systems). I have a legitimate question. What was the reason for the emergence/creation of deserts? Was it a consequence of the famine policy (or rather, the deprivation of direct access to water resources)? A military strike against the most critical infrastructure (which creates water)? The result of waste from the global (if we consider the whole Earth as a mining plant) enrichment process after mining?


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## Silveryou (Jun 29, 2022)

Eighteenth map titled ‘La Spagna’ by Stefano Bonsignori.




​_Spain_ (Spagna)_ was inhabited starting from the twelfth _(XII)_ year of the reign of Nimrod_ (Nembot)***_, which corresponded to year 1800_ (MDCCC) _since the creation of the world. Its first King was Tubal_ (Re Tubale)_, son of Japhet_ (Iafet) _son of Noah_ (Noe)_, called Caelus_ (Cielo)_. He and Tubal called this land Celtubalia. Then King Ibero_ (Ibero) _called it Celtiberia, then Iberia and in the end it was called Hispania_ (Ispania) _by King Hispan_ (Ispano) _around the year 2300_ (MMCCC)_. It was for many centuries under the royal government, but during the reign of Abido it was abandoned due to the drought which endured for 26 _(XXVI) _years, and it was entirely inhabited except for those living near the Pyrenees_ (Pirenei)_ mountains, so named for the great conflagration that took place there. For this a great amount of gold was destroyed within these mountains, which was then brought to light due to the cracks produced by a great earthquake in the year 3500_ (MMMD) _and given to the Phoenicians_ (Fenici) _and to those of Marseille_ (Marsilia) _by the Spaniards _(Spag.li)_, who didn’t know its value. When the Spaniards returned after the drought, they no longer had a ruler and so the Carthaginians_ (Cartaginesi) _came with the intent to conquer it, but after lenghty wars they left its conquest to the Romans_ (Romani)_. James_ (Iacopo) _the apostle and his disciples preached the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ_ (Euagelio di N.S.I.C.) _and they got great results. The Goths _(Gotti) _and other people from the North_ (Tramontana) _arrived guided by their King Suintila_ (Suetilla) _in the year of Christ 630, and ruled over it for many years. But after the year 700 it was occupied by the Moors_ (Mori)_, who kept it until Ferdinand the Catholic King_ (Ferdinando il Re Cattolico) _reduced it to obedience, except for Portugal_ (Portogallo)_. He ruled not only over a part of Italy_ (Italia)_, and the islands of Sicily _(Sicilia) _and Sardinia_ (Sardigna)_, but he also discovered the new world and conquered a part of it, whence he took so much gold in exchange for futile things, that he managed to repair the damage of the gold taken by the Marsilians_ (Marsiliani) _and the Phoenicians. And in its territory_**** _there are 5 Reigns_ (V Regni)_, 21 Duchies_ (Duchi XXI)_, 20 Marks_ (Marchesi XX)_, 60 Counties_ (Conti LX) _and 7 Viscountcies_ (Viceconti VII)_. And it’s very rich in terms of ecclesiastical assets, since there are 9 Archbishops_ (Archiuescoui IX) _and 48_***** _Bishops_ (Vescoui XLVIII) _with large incomings._

* It should be Nimrod, since Nembrot is one of the variants of his name, very similar to Nembot.

** I suppose Bonsignori is talking about the entire territory ruled by Ferdinand and not the American territories alone.

*** XLVIII should be 48… hopefully!

Lots of ‘Anno Mundi’ dates here.

So apparently we have here another possible definition for the Gauls. What is it now? The sixth, seventh, eighth? Tubal here is not a Scythian or a Tartarian. He is simply Japhet’s son and ruled over Spain, to which he gave his name combined with that of grandaddy Noah, called Caelus (aka Sky, Uranus) for the occasion. And therefore we have the Celtubalians! Never heard of them before and I already love them. They transform into the Celtiberians because a certain Ibero (couldn’t find info on this dude) pops out of nowhere. And then Hispan takes the lead, about whom there’s some meagre info. He settles the problem once for all by calling the land Spain.
This Celtubalian thing seems really fictitious but it’s nonetheless intriguing. Cielo is Italian and Spanish for Sky, so it’s not so obvious to say that it’s a ‘Roman-Vatican’ fake, since in the map of Italy we saw how, according to this narrative, Spain had a major role in Italian history through Hesperus and Atlas Italus.

The story of the drought is very interesting too. Never heard of that and couldn't find informations about King Abido. And I also never heard about the great fire of the Pyrenees, which in fact contain the word ‘fire’ in their name. And what about the gold? And the earthquake?
Phoenicians and Massilians are the sneaky ones here. Where is that gold now? Wait, I have a suspect… In the Vatican Library!!! Just anticipating someone’s comment here, LOL.

The Goths took control of Spain during Suintila’s reign (Suintila - Wikipedia). The text here implies they took over from the Romans but the modern narrative tells us it was the Byzantines. But we know for a fact that Byzantines and Romans were the same, so here we have the usual confusion. It seems the Goths took over in that period and not in the 5th centry AD according to consensual chronology. It seems there are multiple traces of this.


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## Safranek (Jun 30, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> ** I couldn’t find much information about a possible translation and/or meaning of the word Chitim, other than the variant Chitin. It seems to be an appelative of Atlas.


I found a Kitiim in the History of Armenia who was allegedly the patriarch of the Romans.

_After the inundations descending from heaven and the drowning of all the living under the abysmal waters, and after the most unwilling navigation of Noah and his coming out on shore in Armenia in accord with the order of the Lord together with his children, their wives and still others and non-rational brutes, once again the earth began to quicken through divine supervision. _
_To our own Japheth [Yabetc] at first a son was born and was named Gomer [Gamir], and the territory in his possession was named Gamirk' from his name. _
_Then Magog was born, and the descendants of Magog are the Celts [Kehkc] and Galatians [Gaiataccikc]. _
_Then came Maday who named the territory of his house Media [Mark5] after himself. _
_Subsequently, came Tubal [Tobel], after whom the Thessalians [T'etalk'J were named, and Meshech [Mosok'], who ruled over Illyria [Liwrikia]._
_The sixth son was Tiras from whom were born our very own Ashkenaz [Ask'anaz] and Togarmah [T'orgom] who named the country that he possessed Thrace after himself, as well as Chittim [K'itiim] who brought under his sway the Macedonians. _
_The sons of Tiras were Ashkenaz, from whom descended the Sarmatians [Sarmatk'], Riphath [Rip'at], whence the Sauromatians [Soramatk'], and Togarmah, who according to Jeremiah subjugated the Ashkenazian army and called it the House of Togarmah; for at first Ashkenaz had named our people after himself in accord with the law of seniority, as we shall explain in its proper place. _
_From Javan [Yawan], the ancestor of the Greeks, descended Elisha [Etisa] whose progeny are the Sicilians [Sikilaccikc] and Athenians [Atcenaceikc], and Tarshish [T'arsis], the ancestor of the Iberians [Virk'] and the Tyrrhenians [Tiwrenac'ik'J, _
_*and Kitris [Kitiim] whose offsprings are the Romans* [Hrowmayec"ik]._
Source:  https://ia800500.us.archive.org/5/items/HistoryOfArmeniaByJohnKatholikos/YD_History_Maksoudian.pdf


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## Silveryou (Jun 30, 2022)

Nineteenth map titled ‘Nubia’ by Stefano Bonsignori.



​_Saturn_ (Saturno)_, that is to say_*** _Cush_ (Cur)**** _son of Ham_ (Camese)*****, _was the first King_ (Re) _of this Province_ (Provincia)_, once called Eritrea_ (Eterea)******_, subsequantly taking the name Ethiopia_ (Etiopia) _after King Aethiop_ (Etiope)_. Divine rites were always practiced in this region. A part of it was occupied by the Indians (Indiai), who didn’t change its name, and afterwards no other people entered anymore. Cambyses_ (Cambise)_ was the only one who tried to conquer it, but he gave up when his army was decimated by the lack of provisions. Ethiopians_ (Etiopi) _sent colonies in Egypt_ (Egitto) _and in Italy_ (Italia) _under Phaethon_ (Fetonte)_. They had their royal seat in Meroe, then Garama and nowadays in Zambra. This reign was mighty since the start and it still is and never changed its government. They say that their emperor, called Prester John_ (Iani)_, was born from David's lineage. And in order to avoid chances of revolutions in the state and dissent, only those with his blood live freely while everybody else is all under vigilance. Thanks to the preaching of the apostle Philip_ (Filippo) _they accepted the faith in Christ_ (Cristo)_, nor they abandoned it._

* Italian ‘ovvero’ (‘o vero’ in the text) nowadays means ‘or, or else’ but in the past it also meant ‘that is to say’. It’s really confusing to chose here what’s the best solution.

** I suppose he is Cush.

*** We saw that Bonsignori uses Cam and Camese as two interchangeable names for Saturn, even though there’s confusion with Cam’s son Canaan. But how is it possible that Cam/Camese/Saturn is Cush’s father if Cush’s other name is Saturn? This should mean that ‘o vero’ means ‘or, or else’ rather than ‘that is to say’ (see *). Therefore Bonsignori doesn’t know who the first king was. Ham or Cush?

**** I’m not sure Eterea should be translated with Eritrea, but it makes sense to me. The word brings to mind the Aether (the element) or Terra (meaning Earth). It’s fun to see how both terms are full of deep meanings. Are they related to this land? In a previous map it was said that Egypt was anciently called Aeria. Was it another spelling of Eteria?

This map is packed with alternative histories.

About Indians in Sudan one should ask what kind of Indians! If we want to use it in the most regular way then we are talking about the Indians from India.
In the manuscript El Becerro General (El origen inédito del Cristianismo oficial, un matrimonio y/o un proyecto indio) it is taught the story of the choice of faith between Chistianity, Judaism and Islam through a marriage between a representative of the three faiths with the ‘Princess of the Three Indies’. Her choice is ‘Don Juan’ coming from Rome sent by the Holy Father and he will be the first Prester John, according to this tale.
This story is obviously a variant of the famous choice of faith so widespread during the Middle-Ages and whose most famous example is the choice which Paris had to do with the Trojan War as an ending result. It seems in any case strange that a simple ‘Roman’ priest by the name of Don Juan was at the origin of the legendary Priester John. I repeat my idea regarding the possible connection with Noah. It is Bonsignori who usually places Noah everywhere, but he doesn’t do it here, so it is my duty to take care this time, LOL.
@HELLBOY let me know your thoughts.

And then? Ethiopians in Italy guided by Phaethon? What does it mean?

There’s in any case a peculiar similarity between the Pope’s representation and the Prester John. Do they have a common origin? Is it the Pope inheriting something from the Priester John or is it the other way around? And what about the other John, the one living in Russia/Muscovy? I am very inclined to think they are/were inheritors of a common belief system and/or traditions. Was it Noah/Janus their common ancestor?

There’s more to say about this map. Let me know what you think.


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## Silveryou (Jul 3, 2022)

Twentieth map titled ‘La Schiavonia’ by Stefano Bonsignori.



​_This Province_ (Provincia) _and what lies beyond till the Greater_ (Maggiore)*** _sea and the Archipelago_ (Arcipelago)**** _was assigned from the ancient father Noah_ (Noe)_, in the third_ (3) _year of Belus King of the Assyrians_ (Belo Re degli Assiri)_, to his nephew Tiras_ (Tira)_, Japhet’s_ (Iapeto) _son, together with Arcas_ (Arcadio) _and Emathus_ (Ematio)***** _sons of Canaan_ (Canaam) _called Phoenician Ham_ (Cam Fenice)_, who was son of Ham _(Camese)_. After many years it was dominated by Illyrius _(Illirio) _son of Cadmus _(Cadmo)_, from which it derived its name Illyria_ (Illiria) _and it kept it for a long time, until the Sclaveni_ (Schiauoni)_, people from the north, chased away its inhabitants and occupied it in the time of Emperor Phocas_ (Foca Imp.re)_. They called it Slavonia_ (Schiuonia)_, and even though Barbarians_ (Barbari)_, they have expanded their name and their territory, whose extension in comparison to any other Province and Nation_ (Nazione)_ can be judged_****** _by the fact that their own language and letters_ (Caratteri)_ are nowadays used and found not only among Bosnians_ (Bossinesi)_, Serbians_ (Seruiani)_, Bulgarians_ (Bulgari)_, Russians_ (Rossi)_, Bohemians _(Boemi)_, Poles_ (Polacchi)_, Lithuanians_ (Lituani) _and Muscovites _(Moscouiti)_, but also in Asia among the Tatars_ (Tartari)******* _and even at the court of the Great Prince of the Turks_ (Gran S.re de i Turchi) _who rules over most of it. This Province was in ancient times governed by its own sovereigns until it was subjected to the Roman_ (Rom.) _Emperors, from whom, as already mentioned, it passed to the Sclaveni and then in part to the Hungarians_ (Vngari)_. But today it obeys in part to the Great Prince of the Turks, another part to the Venetian Senate_ (Senato Veneto) _and another to the Austrian Archduke_ (Arciduca di Austria)_. Even though it’s a mountainous region for the most part, it is in any case fertile and rich in pastures and mines, from which resources and from the presence of the sea the inhabitants take great advantage, through which they live in abundance and peace._

* The Black Sea

** The Aegean Sea

*** I don’t know if it’s Emathus (Emathus - Wikipedia) or Emathion (Emathion - Wikipedia).

**** I’m not certain of the translation of ‘and their territory … can be judged’, but it should be something similar in any case.

***** I’m using the common translation not involving mythical Tartarians fighting Parasites, LOL.

This map is very interesting from a purely historical point of view.

Bonsignori says that Noah gave this territory together with all the lands that lie from there to the Black Sea going East and to the Aegean Sea going South. He gave it to some descendants of Japhet and Canaan, who is mentioned here for the first time with his proper name (and so it seems that Bonsignori always intended Ham to be Cam/Camese/Saturn), and who is given the nickname ‘Fenice’, Phoenician.

Arcadio is clearly the Arcas of Greek 'myth'. According to wiki one of the people descended from Canaan were the Arkites, supposedly from the city of Arqa in Lebanon. It seems the Greeks preserved the tradition better than the Jews. Were these Phoenicians really coming from the Middle-East?
Immediately after started the rule of Illyrus, son of Cadmus, another Phoenician. Cadmus is said to be the one introducing the Phoenician alphabet in Greece.
And then it’s the turn of the Slavs, the Sclaveni, who took over the region and expanded their borders and their language, alphabet included.

Am I the only one seeing a repetition here? Just few miles away to the West we have the Venetians and the famous seafaring city of Venice. While Venice and the Venetians remind the slavic Wends, the same word ‘Venetian’ seems to be a slight variation of the word ‘Phoenician’, with whom they shared the dominion of the seas and possibly other things.

So we have Slavs-Sclaveni-Venedi-Venetians-Phoenicians, and a strange recurrence of a story of language and alphabets.

A final word for the very clear distinction Bonsignori makes between Russians, Muscovites and Tartars. Deal with it, LOL!


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## Safranek (Jul 5, 2022)

The KEY PROBLEM in assessing the historical information from the various NAMES in sources is summarized best by Istvan Horvat author of the book Drawings - The Oldest Histories of the Magyar Nation _(pg. 90)_ in the following paragraph:

_It is hardly imaginable, that the human Names would not have been corrupted, twisted and twisted by different Nations, and even if only by one People, as we still have fresh examples today._​​_We know that Elisabetha = Ersebet = Ersi = Örzse = Liza =Lizi = Lilla = Bösi = Böske = Pere = Persi, and more._​
_But how can a scientist, who is not initiated into all the branches of common language habits, get to know this diversity? However, in this way, as we see in this example, *until we define the various unifying names*; *until the Translations of such names are faithfully collected and understood: Until then, the Earth will spread out hundreds and hundreds of Nations, and the world will not have a connected History* even when there could be one. And it was these thoughts that caused me, encouraged by the times fraught with great deeds to be attentive, *first of all to collect the Main Order of Rules, according to which the old History should be prepared*, and then I reached for the Histories of our Nation._​
I will post more from this fantastic book, and I mean fantastic because he not only quotes a plethora of ancient sources continuously throughout the book, but correlates the NAMES being referred to by cross-referencing those sources, essentially laying out the example of how to correlate all the different 'stories', thereby rewriting the history of Nations adding a linguistic context pertaining to Names, personal, national and geographical.


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## iseidon (Jul 5, 2022)

Safranek said:


> The KEY PROBLEM in assessing the historical information from the various NAMES in sources is summarized best by Istvan Horvat author of the book Drawings - The Oldest Histories of the Magyar Nation _(pg. 90)_ in the following paragraph:
> 
> _It is hardly imaginable, that the human Names would not have been corrupted, twisted and twisted by different Nations, and even if only by one People, as we still have fresh examples today._​​_We know that Elisabetha = Ersebet = Ersi = Örzse = Liza =Lizi = Lilla = Bösi = Böske = Pere = Persi, and more._​
> _But how can a scientist, who is not initiated into all the branches of common language habits, get to know this diversity? However, in this way, as we see in this example, *until we define the various unifying names*; *until the Translations of such names are faithfully collected and understood: Until then, the Earth will spread out hundreds and hundreds of Nations, and the world will not have a connected History* even when there could be one. And it was these thoughts that caused me, encouraged by the times fraught with great deeds to be attentive, *first of all to collect the Main Order of Rules, according to which the old History should be prepared*, and then I reached for the Histories of our Nation._​
> I will post more from this fantastic book, and I mean fantastic because he not only quotes a plethora of ancient sources continuously throughout the book, but correlates the NAMES being referred to by cross-referencing those sources, essentially laying out the example of how to correlate all the different 'stories', thereby rewriting the history of Nations adding a linguistic context pertaining to Names, personal, national and geographical.


That's why I mentioned inter-letter and inter-sound transitions quite often.

The unification (as we hear it, so we write it) of languages is necessary to reduce confusion (the International Phonetic Alphabet adds even more confusion).

But this is a distant prospect.

*UPD1*. For @Silveryou.



> _Diri_***
> 
> * I couldn’t find who this deity corresponds to.



In the map "Scitia", there was a mention of Diri. Possibly a connection with the prince of Kiev (rus; within the official version). Perhaps they are somehow connected.

*UPD2*. The second curious point about "Scitia" is this. If you believe the official version of history, it turns out that the map was made at a time when the Moscow/Russian kingdom was developing/occupying the lands of the Volga region, the Urals and Siberia. But there is no indication of this (in the map presented).

Conquest of the Khanate of Sibir - Wikipedia (+ I suggest reading the versions in other languages).

Русское царство — Википедия (rus). Read the history, which refers to the 16th century. Amazingly, there is no hint of this in the "Scitia" map. Wikipedia (in this case) gives the same (±) material that is studied in ordinary Russian educational institutions.

*UPD3*. About the virgin (half woman and half viper-snake). Perhaps there is a connection with the Mistress of the Copper Mountain (instead of a viper, a lizard) or with Lamia, Echidna, Shahmaran (Verechelen, Zilant?).




Cameni Poias – Kamenny Poyas = Stone Belt.

Cities:

Strupili – ≈ Stropilo = Rafter
Poiassa – Poyas = Belt.
Cameni – Kamen' = Stone.
Weliki Poiassa – Veliky/Bol'shoy Poyas = Great/Big Belt.

Poyas (Belt), Veliky/Bol'shoy Poyas (Great Belt), Kamen' (Stone). + Khrebet or Gorny Khrebet (Ridge or Mountain Ridge). All Slavic words. All of these words are used today when talking about the Urals.

River/Fiume/Fluss:

Stzuchogora – Shchuchiya Gora = Pike Mountain. A pike in Russian culture means magic. The phrase "by the will of a pike, by my will" ("po shchuchiemu veleniyu, po moemu hoteniyu") means "as if by magic and at my wish".

I found this river to be a curious point, since one of my favorite places in the Urals is called the Pike Lakes (Big (rus) and Small) in the Yamalo-Nenets Autonomous Okrug.




The modern Shchuchya River flows out of them, but it is on the eastern slope of the Ural Mountains (in the Yamalo-Nenets Autonomous Okrug).

The other toponyms are either still found today (or are often found on maps), or are incomprehensible (there are few of them).

*UPD4*. Another curious point. In Russian the word mountain (when talking about a high elevation) can be spoken as "pik" (peak). It is very similar to "pike". Coincidence?

Derived from the word "piki" (spades – card suit + stabbing weapons). Plus, a very subtle, sharp and quiet exclamation.














Apparently, "picture" (something drawn with a brush or consisting of many drawn dots/elements) and "pixel" are words from the same group. It is possible that the collective root "pik" denotes "point (of) a pointed tip".

I apologize for responding only now. Some material was collected a few days ago, but it went down in my task feed. I just remembered about it today.

*UPD5*. For @HELLBOY. In response to this post.



> The *Chichimecs* who remained in the mountains (they lived in deep caves) left the new people in quiet possession of their lands, and learned some of their customs, to the extent that they began to build huts, elect governors and live according to their laws.



In Russian, there is the word "chuchmek" (rus). It is a collective (and almost always pejorative) word referring to former (or current) nomadic Mongoloid Siberians. If you want, you can call anyone who does something wrong (it has nothing to do with ethnicity) that way. In nationalist circles, this is (among other things) what all non-Russians are called.

*UPD6*. For @HELLBOY. In response to this post.



> Indeed. In Jewish texts, the "Red Sea" is named through the Hebrew phrase "Yam Suf", whose exact translation is "Sea of seaweed" .
> 
> Precisely in the middle of the Atlantic, today, there is an immense prairie of brownish red algae, known as the "Sargasso Sea".
> 
> ...



Perhaps there is a connection to the red waters (rus)?

In October 2020 in Kamchatka, there was this (rus). Also the Red Sea?

UPD7. For @HELLBOY. In response to this post.



> This is just a thought of mine, from time to time I like to relate certain things, in Mexico there was another type of warrior called *chinaco* (from where the famous Mexican charro was born) his ideal partner "la china poblana", another type of warrior was the Dragon de Cuera, the warriors were born here in America who maintained order in North America in California and New Mexico and so on.



There is a word "chin" (rus) in the Russian language. It means "post, rank, position, official" (post, rang, dolzhnost', chinovnik) or "slender, noble" (stroyno, blagorodno) or "order" (poryadok) or "make, fix, repair" (delat', chinit', remontirovat'). Very often the word combination "military rank" (voenny chin) is used. Often, this is the common name for a military officer.

"Totenkopf" is also called "Adam's head".


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## ViniB (Jul 5, 2022)

Safranek said:


> The KEY PROBLEM in assessing the historical information from the various NAMES in sources is summarized best by Istvan Horvat author of the book Drawings - The Oldest Histories of the Magyar Nation _(pg. 90)_ in the following paragraph:
> 
> _It is hardly imaginable, that the human Names would not have been corrupted, twisted and twisted by different Nations, and even if only by one People, as we still have fresh examples today._​​_We know that Elisabetha = Ersebet = Ersi = Örzse = Liza =Lizi = Lilla = Bösi = Böske = Pere = Persi, and more._​
> _But how can a scientist, who is not initiated into all the branches of common language habits, get to know this diversity? However, in this way, as we see in this example, *until we define the various unifying names*; *until the Translations of such names are faithfully collected and understood: Until then, the Earth will spread out hundreds and hundreds of Nations, and the world will not have a connected History* even when there could be one. And it was these thoughts that caused me, encouraged by the times fraught with great deeds to be attentive, *first of all to collect the Main Order of Rules, according to which the old History should be prepared*, and then I reached for the Histories of our Nation._​
> I will post more from this fantastic book, and I mean fantastic because he not only quotes a plethora of ancient sources continuously throughout the book, but correlates the NAMES being referred to by cross-referencing those sources, essentially laying out the example of how to correlate all the different 'stories', thereby rewriting the history of Nations adding a linguistic context pertaining to Names, personal, national and geographical.


Looking foward for this book, it may finally clear up some of the mess this thread did on my mind hahahah


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## Silveryou (Jul 5, 2022)

Twenty-first map titled ‘Affrica’ by Stefano Bonsignori.



​_The First Ruler_ (P.o Signore)_ of Libya_ (Libia)_, that is minor Africa_ (Affrica)_, was Triton_ (Tritone) _son of Sheba_ (Saba)***_, son of Cush_ (Cur)****_, son of Ham _(Camese)_, son of Noah_ (Noe)_. He took over the state with its colonies in the year 18_ (XVIII)_ of King Nimrod of the Assyrians_ (Nimbrot Re degli Assiri) _and left there his son Ammon _(Ammone)_, who took for wife Rhea_ (Rea)_, sister of Ham King of Egypt_ (Egitto)_. Since he fathered Dionysus_ (Dioisio) _with Amalthea_ (Amaltea)_, he came into discord with her and she left and took for husband his brother Ham and together they took away the state from Ammon. But Dionysius drove them out of Lybia in order to avenge his father and adopted their son Osiris_ (Osiride)_ and made him King of Egypt. He also adopted Pallas_ (Pallade)_, who taught the art of war to the Lybians_ (Libici)_. But after a long time their Women _(Done) _harassed King Iarbas_ (Iarba) _the First and he very humbly gave them many gifts and defered to them every decision_*****_. Later the Phoenicians_ (Fenici) _came. They built many Cities _(Città) _among which Carthage_ (Cartagine) _that fought against the Romans_ (Romani) _for supremacy. It was destroyed and the Province _(Puincia) _remained under Roman rule until Gaiseric_ (Geserigo) _King of the Vandals_ (Vandali) _bought it. This province accepted the faith in Christ _(X.o) _but kept it not for so long, since it was occupied by the Arabs Saracens_ (Arabi Saracini)_, who ruled over it up until it passed to the Turks _(Turchi)_, who still rule it today._

* Not sure that Saba it’s in fact the Sheba of the legendary Queen, but it fits with his ancestry.

** I already translated Cur with Cush in a previous map. I hope it’s correct.

*** A weird sentence. It’s hard to tell what that ‘First’ means, since it’s attributed to King Iarbas, so it probably means he was the first of some rulers with the same name. The rest of the sentence is not very clear, but the general sense seems to be that Iarbas had to deal with these Lybian women and managed to do it by sharing his power with them or something like that.

I don’t have much to say, mainly due to the fact that there’s too much to say. Nowadays we talk about ancient Gods who are not supposed to exist or are supposed to be something coming out of human’s mind, while here we are dealing with real characters having territories and fighting each other for power. The various identifications of these Gods one with the other are not followed. Here Ammon is not Zeus/Jupiter since we saw in another map the identification of Jupiter with Osiris.
In a previous map we had events unfolding in the third year of Assyrian Belus, here we have the eighteenth year of Nimrod. Gods acted side by side with semi-historical characters.

Women instructed by Pallas (the text says she was a ‘she’, so it must be Athena) and threatening the current king with brute force is the dream of every modern feminist. Do they know this story after an abundant century of their ‘studies’ in search for their freedom from eeeevil men, LOL?


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## Silveryou (Jul 5, 2022)

iseidon said:


> In the map "Scitia", there was a mention of Diri. Possibly a connection with the prince of Kiev (rus; within the official version). Perhaps they are somehow connected.


I think we should search for some diety and/or hero in Greek mythology. The list of eventual characters gave no results for me though.



iseidon said:


> The second curious point about "Scitia" is this. If you believe the official version of history, it turns out that the map was made at a time when the Moscow/Russian kingdom was developing/occupying the lands of the Volga region, the Urals and Siberia. But there is no indication of this (in the map presented).


I think it's more geography/history oriented though. There is another map by the other guy Ignazio Danti that I've not yet translated but I know it's more actuality oriented (for that period of time, no Putins have been harmed in the making of that map).



iseidon said:


> About the virgin (half woman and half viper-snake). Perhaps there is a connection with the Mistress of the Copper Mountain (instead of a viper, a lizard) or with Lamia, Echidna, Shahmaran (Verechelen, Zilant?).


Yes. In Greek 'mythology' the Scythians were born out of the relation between Hercules and Echidna. That also reminds me of the Chinese people saying they are a nation descended from the Dragon... who knows!



iseidon said:


> Cities:
> 
> Strupili – ≈ Stropilo = Rafter
> Poiassa – Poyas = Belt.
> ...


Can you actually recognize some of these cities or geographical features? The map is about 'Karelia and Northern Russia'. The main rivers represented are the Volga, the Oka, the Pechora and the 'Ob. The Riphean mountains are clearly the Urals and that land West to the 'Ob's estuary/gulf.
The map is called 'Part of Scythia', implying there's another part, possibly to the East of the 'Ob and the Urals. It's in any case a map centered on the North of modern Russia, so I wonder if there's a connection with the linguistic maps connecting those parts with Central Asia and I wonder what was the migratory sense. From North to South or the other way around? Here the author says it was from the Caucasus. By the way, this map below is probably an example of how these ancient stories have conditioned our 'schienthific' perspective and have been removed afterwards to give more credibility to the narrative and/or modify it.


​


ViniB said:


> Looking foward for this book, it may finally clear up some of the mess this thread did on my mind hahahah


I thought about this thread to be something like this on purpose. People who actually don't care about history are going to be confused since here there is no narrative to follow and you are free to make up your mind with the content you read. I strongly invite you to try coming up with some idea out of your own experience/knowledge rather than following the next big trend. Cheers


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## Safranek (Jul 5, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> _The First Ruler_ (P.o Signore)_ of Libya_ (Libia)_, that is minor Africa_ (Affrica)_, was Triton_ (Tritone) _son of Sheba_ (Saba)***_, son of Cush_ (Cur)****_, son of Ham _(Camese)_, son of Noah_ (Noe)_._


Stated in the aforementioned book of my previous post (_pg. 28_);

_The Scythians were Chamites and according to Moses whom I could not think more credible, the inhabitants of Africa. Their residence was Nubia and Abyssinia, where it is easy to find the home of Magyars, Huns, or Bissenus, Nomades, Avars, Enareas, Uz, on the tablecloth of Africa._​​_The old Abia, Abissenus, Bissenus European and Asian names have proclaimed this uninterrupted. The fact that Egypt was often visited from here is no doubt. Making great advances in the beautification (because every new traveler* derives this beautification from Abissinia and Nubia), their princes began to raise the great pyramids instead of the Hunhaloms** or the King's mounds (Hunenbette, Hunengräber), and later this caused the people to emigrate. This is what Moses' mixing of languages was, and in the field of Sennaar in Nubia was built a big tower, and also the big city of Babylonia, Babylonia (Bábul, Bábulna, Bábolna), not in Asia._​​* he could be referring to narratives written by travelers of the time, or I'm translating badly.
** halom = mound

So he places Babylon in Sennaar in Nubia.

and,

_The Scythians, as Sunworshipers, already carried the Titanes name in their old homeland._​
I'm only half-way through the book and I have to keep re-reading as I'm struggling to understand it while translating the Latin (a lot of quotes), so its a very slow process. According to this author, the Greek myths are to be taken historically.


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## iseidon (Jul 6, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> I think we should search for some diety and/or hero in Greek mythology. The list of eventual characters gave no results for me though.
> 
> 
> I think it's more geography/history oriented though. There is another map by the other guy Ignazio Danti that I've not yet translated but I know it's more actuality oriented (for that period of time, no Putins have been harmed in the making of that map).
> ...






Scitia​
I tried that a few days ago. But it's hard to do on the phone (match mountains and rivers; no trust in names, as they're easy to change). According to my observations, it is very difficult to compare the current relief with what is shown on the map.


Here is a fairly accurate match (in my opinion):









You can see how the rivers were renamed or how the Pechora (for example) was changed. Assuming that the original historical map is correct.​
The intersection of the Pechora and Izhma (+Usa).


I have come across information (this is a respected blogger on tart-aria.info; I have not found other sources; so one should be careful with the information) where the Great Tumen is compared to Yekaterinburg (on the Iset River). If this is true, then the top river (above) is the Tura or Tavda (hard to understand from this map).










I do not see (more precisely, can not reliably determine) on this map the place where the basins of the Volga (Kama, Chusovaya, Belaya) and Ob (Irtysh, Tobol, Tura, Iset, Miass) intersect. Therefore, it is difficult to say anything.

Now it looks like this:





The watershed of the basins is highlighted in yellow (excluding Tobol river).​




Unfortunately, I don't have a better visual photo (since I didn't take many screenshots; and my computer and hard drive are lost).





Map showing the rivers (without mountains) of Russia (let it be here, just in case).


If you look at the Vychegda River, the town of Kondori is the approximate location of Troitsko-Pechorsk or Komsomolsk-on-Pechora (rus).





It is possible that Kargapole is located correctly and roughly coincides with the modern city Kargopol.





Also, it seems to me that Viburg on the map does not correspond to modern Vyborg. But it looks like modern St. Petersburg (there is also a lake nearby). But this is hypothetical, of course.














I found it curious that the town of Saint Michael is shown at the mouth of the Northern Dvina River. Approximately there, Arkhangelsk is located. I have a delusional theory that one of the images of Archangel Michael is Mikhail Lomonosov (he was the most prominent Russian scientist and chemist who contributed to almost every science; chem-mech or xem-mex and chim-mich or xim-mix and mach/mash-cham/sham; *chem*ist/*chim*ik - does *mix*ing and/or something ingenious and inventive (*mech*anic); *sham*an - assembles the *mach*ines/*mash*iny; perhaps most people perceived mechanics as wizards/shamans). He is from those places. It seems to me at times that such a mark has been thrown into Russian culture (in general, I believe that the saints are the alchemical scientists of the ancient world, who laid the foundation of our civilization, based on the knowledge they received from the gods in the Arctic; and the mythology around them is only necessary to ensure that real alchemical knowledge is received by only those who seek alchemical knowledge). By alchemy I mean a complex science that operates with the real laws of nature and the universe (not those we are told are real). I think of it as the universal science from which all others have descended.

I have kept this map. When I get a computer, I will definitely take it apart, as this map is interesting to me (I also liked the map showing the Sahara with the mountains).


Regarding languages. I think that before the supposed cataclysm (roughly 250-300 years ago) there was a single world culture. During the cataclysm, some people managed to escape in the bunkers of the mountains. Therefore, we observe language families that come from the mountains (apparently, they lived in the mountains for at least 50-100 years). After the cataclysm was over, people began to look for suitable places to live and there was a migration (to places where they could live). After a while, conditions in other parts of the world began to improve. People began to return to the old territories (colonization), where they met the descendants of people from the ancient world who had survived the cataclysm (either outside the mountain bunkers; or the bunkers were inoperable for a long time, so people had to go outside before they could live comfortably there), who had not been able to maintain developed social norms and technologies (plus they saw traces of adaptation to new conditions in people, which made people different).

This explains why in many cultures of the peoples of the world there are legends of the ark. Perhaps they are mountain bunkers that were located all over the earth.

By the way, my initial interest (one of) the rivers is specifically related to mountain bunkers. According to Ural legends and stories, old legendary peoples survived in the mountains, who hid in the mountains the treasures of the old world (before the Cataclysm). On guard of these riches are various heroes (Mistress of the Copper Mountain, the Great Poloz/Ratsnake, Griffins, etc.), who do not allow outsiders there. In our time, about these places (the mountains of the Urals and Altai) there are many rumors that there are military (mines of intercontinental missiles) and government bunkers.


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## ViniB (Jul 6, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> I thought about this thread to be something like this on purpose. People who actually don't care about history are going to be confused since here there is no narrative to follow and you are free to make up your mind with the content you read. I strongly invite you to try coming up with some idea out of your own experience/knowledge rather than following the next big trend. Cheers


What i got from all of the maps and narratives presented is, and if the narratives are true btw, the following:

Gods from multiple cultures decided to play war with humanity, together with prester john type characters (??????) That's my whole take at the moment. Honest to God here, it's all very confusing


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## Silveryou (Jul 6, 2022)

iseidon said:


> I have come across information (this is a respected blogger on tart-aria.info; I have not found other sources; so one should be careful with the information) where the Great Tumen is compared to Yekaterinburg (on the Iset River). If this is true, then the top river (above) is the Tura or Tavda (hard to understand from this map).


Every time I look into maps of that time showing Sibir's location there's something not ok with the position given to it nowadays. I'm not going to post all the maps, but there's plenty of them. To summarize what I always see, I can say that Sibir is always represented on the West side of the Ob in its first section and NEVER on the Irtys river as commonly assumed.







​


> iseidon said:
> in general, I believe that the saints are the alchemical scientists of the ancient world, who laid the foundation of our civilization, based on the knowledge they received from the gods in the Arctic; and the mythology around them is only necessary to ensure that real alchemical knowledge is received by only those who seek alchemical knowledge


Fomenko says the same when he thinks saints gave Dmitri Donskoi the first cannon to fight against the 'Tartars' (even if for him they were both Tartars aka Russians aka Slavs.........., LOL).
In any case you reminded me of a strange occurence in the text of the Alexiad. There Anna Komnene describes multiple sieges occured during her father's reign and she always uses certain terms: μηχανῶν (mechanon), generally translated as 'machines, engines' and ὀργάνων (organon), generally translated with 'siege-engines'.
Now it is hard to find a good definition for the word 'cannon'. They say it 'is derived from the Old Italian word _cannone_, meaning "large tube", which came from Latin _canna_, in turn originating from the Greek κάννα (_kanna_), "reed", and then generalised to mean any hollow tube-like object; cognate with Akkadian _qanu(m)_ and Hebrew _qāneh_, "tube, reed"' (Cannon - Wikipedia).
But you can see that a cannon is in fact a machine, a me-channon. It seems more logical to me than saying it derives form Italian-Latin-Hebrew (very original as always) for 'tube. large tube'.
On the other hand we have the organ gun (Ribauldequin - Wikipedia), a siege weapon used in medieval warfare side by side with the cannon.
Apparently people already used cannons and organs before the invention of gunpowder but historians seem to ignore the simple fact that they used the same exact words for siege enginesof different epochs. Why did they do that and why historians don't seem to be bothered by that?
About the saints with double identities I suspect the same thing. I've so many times stumbled upon incomplete biographies of saints who magically had a secular namesake with a scientific background. The same can be said about political-religious institutions like the Senate-Sinedrion, the Pontifex Maximus-Pope and many more.



ViniB said:


> What i got from all of the maps and narratives presented is, and if the narratives are true btw


Bare in mind that you are probably not reading the truth from these maps. It was just another narrative and in fact our own modern narrative still derives from it without saying it explicitely. It seems historians crippled the old narrative(s) and then substituted the missing parts with 'schientific' explanations. I consider these maps as the missing legs and arms. It doesn't mean this narrative is true but is at least more complete.


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## Silveryou (Jul 7, 2022)

Twenty-second map titled ‘Libia interiore’ by Stefano Bonsignori. This is his last map.



​_The ancients called this Province_ (Provincia)_ inner Libya_ (Libia)_, which for many centuries was unknown even though inhabited since after the deluge, since here Dionysus_ (Dionisio) _was nurished after his father Triton_ (Tritone) _gave him to Queen Minerva _(Regina Minerua)_ in order to guard him. She rejected men’s customs and wished her women to train in warfare and government, so that after many years Myrina_ (Mirina) _defeated King Iarbas_ (Re Iarba) _with her valiant army of women and occupied Mauritania and almost all of Africa_ (Affrica)_, and after making arrangements with Horus_ (Oro) _king of Egypt_ (Egitto)_, she passed into Arabia, returning from where she was defeated and killed, and her Women_ (Donne) _went back home and laid down their arms. After that, perhaps due to the eartquakes which made navigation impossible, or maybe because the inhabitants themselves refused to trade with strangers, it remained hidden for many centuries, until the Portuguese_ (Portoghesi)_ sailing along its shores discovered the land, and taking possession of various places they fortified and still own them. The ancients didn’t know about the Niger River_ (Fiume Negro) _and they didn’t know how it flooded this Province the same way the Nile_ (Nilo) _does with Egypt, and that its sources are in the same mountains from which the Nile is born, and that it makes this land very fertile._

We now know that Queen Minerva decides to get rid of patriarchy. Since Minerva is considered to be the Latin/Roman version of Athena and in the previous map we encountered a certain Pallas teaching warfare to the Lybians, we can infer that Minerva and Pallas are one and the same… even though I’m not sure, to be fair. In any case she takes control of the territory until what is probably one of her successors, Myrina (Mirina (mitologia) - Wikipedia – no english wiki at disposal), considered to be the Queen of the Amazons, conquers almost all of Africa (probably the middle to northern part of the modern African continent) until her death while returning from Arabia.
Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan were two half-asses compared to her!

Here it’s time to open a discussion though. Myrina is not the Queen of the Amazons, because the Amazons were mentioned in the map about Scythia. We also had in various maps a mention to the famous Prester John, which is also represented on various Asian maps somewhere beyond Muscovia. Africa also shares with the North the troglodytes (trolls, wildmen, cavemen) and many other legendary people not mentioned here but well known through various authors and maps.

My personal take is that we are facing a geographical duplication. My bias leads me to think that the original was the Northern one. What’s your take? Do you think it’s a duplication, or is it just a series of coincidences… or is it the Europeans who attached fancy stories to the parts of the world they didn’t know and therefore it’s all a big joke?


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## Safranek (Jul 8, 2022)

Safranek said:


> The Scythians were Chamites and according to Moses whom I could not think more credible,* the inhabitants of Africa*. Their residence was Nubia and Abyssinia,


According to that book, the Scythians had their *primary* base in those lands and they were 'chased' (via war) out of those territories by *Joshua* (Josue), who possessed a huge formidable army, and they scattered in several directions of which account is given. (_pg. 31 art. 34_)

_The Parthian Szittya Nation, which had lived for Valor and Glory, felt the terrible blow, the weight of God's wrath in its humiliation, and now had no choice but to abandon its homeland and retreat to Arabia and Egypt. The fertile Arabia on the side of the Red Sea is a refuge especially for Asian Magyars. Here the Philistaeus, i.e. Alenitic gulf, strikes; here Agra, Egra, that is: Magyarvár. Others seek refuge in Africa around Cyrenaica, and especially the people of Kádköz (ušoov Kačn) spread to Tanger, and there they built today's Cadix over time. They were so just towards the great deeds of the Victorious Leader that they are not ashamed to erect a pillar in Tangier with the inscription: "Running from our enemy Josue, we Hun Leaders made our abode here._"​​The Libia in that map is in a different location from the current Libya. You can see Sierra Lione which is the lower west coast of Africa.


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## Dr.G. (Jul 8, 2022)

Referring to the "Twentieth map titled ‘La Schiavonia’ by Stefano Bonsignori", for those interested in the topic of "Greater Tartaria", this history on the map mentions the invasion by Slavonics into the Adriatic Sea, whose Slavonic alphabet was widely used by all peoples in what is considered by the author to be the lands of Tartaria. So, the Khan's Golden Army met the Pagans of Rome, and stayed.


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## Silveryou (Jul 8, 2022)

Dr.G. said:


> Referring to the "Twentieth map titled ‘La Schiavonia’ by Stefano Bonsignori", for those interested in the topic of "Greater Tartaria", this history on the map mentions the invasion by Slavonics into the Adriatic Sea, whose Slavonic alphabet was widely used by all peoples in what is considered by the author to be the lands of Tartaria. So, the Khan's Golden Army met the Pagans of Rome, and stayed.


There is a translation under the map. The author, Bonsignori, doesn't mention Tartaria, Greater or Minor, on any of his maps. He locates some Tartars on his Scythian map but doesn't talk about them in the respective caption and neither of Khans and Golden Hordes.


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## iseidon (Jul 9, 2022)

Interesting point. Apparently (if the map is to be believed), these islands (in modern form) appeared relatively recently. It is unlikely that they would not have noticed the missing (on the old map) islands (if these islands had them; those who provided data for the map), given that some islands are marked (perhaps the water level was higher in that area; only the high part of the islands was visible). Which suggests that someone was in those areas. And they would, unlikely, not have noticed other islands nearby (which are in the present tense).

Or, someone deliberately created such a marker to distract attention (which also cannot be ruled out).

But overall, this map looks very similar to what should be under the sand and at a higher water level (which was provided by water runoff from the mountains that are now under the sand; as a matter of conjecture). The mountains (which provided the water flow) were backfilled with sand. Therefore, there was a drop in the water level in the area.

Unlike Scythia, there is little distortion here, as the proximity to the equator (and distance from the poles) reduces distortion on a flat map by Mercator projection (and similar analogs).

That is why the map of Scythia (and other circumpolar areas) is so difficult to parse. Ideally (in my opinion) you need a detailed (modern) map with the azimuth projection, to be able to see the contours (as old cartographers saw them) and the outlines of the rivers and mountains. Then, there would be a better chance of seeing something.


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## Dr.G. (Jul 9, 2022)

In reference to "_La Germania_" map. We notice the strange name for modern Denmark.
"_Why Dacia? The background for a peculiar province name_" (1957, 2012, via Centre for Dominican Studies of Dacia, jggj.dk/Dacia.htm) [archive.ph/ppNrU]


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## Silveryou (Jul 9, 2022)

Dr.G. said:


> In reference to "_La Germania_" map. We notice the strange name for modern Denmark.


An interesting link. It seems the author has the usual problem of every modern historian, which is not citing the original sources.
And so history is silently rewritten by people who quotes other people who quotes other people. None of the medieval authors cited in the article has been quoted directly. You probably don't know what their literary works are called and where they are preserved. We don't even know if we have the originals (probably not) or copies or copies of copies.

That said the conclusion is always the same. In the middle ages people were ignorant but fortunately we have plenty of modern leftist historians who are not bothered to go and take a look at the origianl sources and when they do, they do it with the preconceived idea that those books were written by people with an IQ slightly above that of a chimpanzee.

So @Dr.G. (and by the way, you said "We notice" so I don't know how many Dr.Gees are out there), how do you feel about it? Do you think we should take these kind of summaries for granted or is it maybe better to do some research on your own to find new answers to old questions?

By the way, this article also shows their ignorance when saying "Back in the days of Christ, Dacia was the name of a country in central Eastern Europe, equal to present-day Hungary and the Romanian province of Transylvania."
No no my dear. The Romaioi, aka Byzantines still called Dacia with its name in full medieval times.

edit: here a link to Heinsohn research. He shows how according to stratigraphy the 'Roman Empire' ended in the 10th century AD, so in a time very close to the authors mentioned in the article ascribed to the 11th century (https://www.q-mag.org/_search.html?req=Heinsohn). Maybe they were not crazy.


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## Dr.G. (Jul 9, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> here a link to Heinsohn research. He shows how according to stratigraphy the 'Roman Empire' ended in the 10th century AD, so in a time very close to the authors mentioned in the article ascribed to the 11th century (https://www.q-mag.org/_search.html?req=Heinsohn). Maybe they were not crazy.


I am an adherent of Heinsohn, viz New Chronology. Yeah, the shortening of modern chronology and displaced identities of nations is what we're here to research. Thanks!


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## Silveryou (Jul 9, 2022)

iseidon said:


> View attachment 23949View attachment 23950
> 
> 
> Interesting point. Apparently (if the map is to be believed), these islands (in modern form) appeared relatively recently. It is unlikely that they would not have noticed the missing (on the old map) islands (if these islands had them; those who provided data for the map), given that some islands are marked (perhaps the water level was higher in that area; only the high part of the islands was visible). Which suggests that someone was in those areas. And they would, unlikely, not have noticed other islands nearby (which are in the present tense).
> ...


I'm not sure about the displacement of geographical features. I'm more inclined to think it's the imprecision of the author of the maps. Look at the Niger river. It is shown linked to the Senegal river as if it is its mouth, which should be down in the South near the Benin Reign, as shown in a previous map. And Bonsignori also says that its source is in the same mountains from which the Nile comes out, which is false, as we know. Yes maybe the river cahanged its course too, but isn't it too much?


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## Silveryou (Jul 9, 2022)

Nineteenth map (part 2) titled ‘Nubia’ by Stefano Bonsignori. I didn’t notice an interesting text on the right top of the map.



​_The ancient Egyptians _(Egizzij)_ did not know where the sources of the Nile_ (Nilo) _were, nor the Ethiopians_ (Etiopi) _knew about the effect its waters have, that is the floods those waters cause in Egypt_ (Egitto)_. But they found out it during the reign of the Sultans_ (Sultani)_, when the Egyptians were forced to pay a substantial tribute to the Emperor_ (Impatore) _of the Ethiopians in order to prevent him from diverging the Nile into the Red_ (Rosso)_ sea, and they still pay it._

I’ve never heard about such a thing before. The Ethiopians and their dear Prester John were threatening an entire nation with the promise to kill all of them if they were not paid. Imagine what disaster that would be for the Mediterranean too, I suppose. So in the previous post I talked about the Niger river modern path and its difference in comparison to that imagined by Bonsignori. I’m not sure anymore of what I said. In fact there’s a chance that the knowledge of diverting a river’s path and using it as a weapon against an enemy could be at the origin of the Sahara desert, where it’s shown that once upon a time various rivers and lakes were present.


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## Safranek (Jul 9, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> _the Egyptians were forced to pay a substantial tribute to the Emperor_ (Impatore) _of the Ethiopians in order to prevent him from diverging the Nile into the Red_ (Rosso)_ sea_


Imagine the execution of such a feat. Either they had some heavy machinery to accomplish something like this or, if done without machinery, the scope of human labor involved would be hard to imagine. Can one Emperor be able to plan and execute such a task in a lifetime? Just how many miles of fresh riverbed are we talking about?

Additionally, what is the city of Mensuria (dangerously close to Manchuria) doing in Nubia? And the river Fiume, which is the old name of Trieste.


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## Silveryou (Jul 9, 2022)

Safranek said:


> And the river Fiume, which is the old name of Trieste.


The word 'fiume' is the Italian for 'river'.



Safranek said:


> Imagine the execution of such a feat. Either they had some heavy machinery to accomplish something like this or, if done without machinery, the scope of human labor involved would be hard to imagine. Can one Emperor be able to plan and execute such a task in a lifetime? Just how many miles of fresh riverbed are we talking about?


I've searched for info here and there about this threat posed by the Ethiopians some centuries ago. It doesn't seem historians are taking this story in consideration as much as they are not taking into consideration the Ethiopian Empire composed of fifteen reigns. It had to be very powerful and rich (maybe through extorsion) to complete such feats.

edit: I'm still wondering about their capital being moved to the South. It seems the Portuguese were the ones putting an end to their empire. Today they show it was confined more or less on the region of modern Ethiopia, but the evidence of these maps shows it was originally centered around modern Sudan and in any case on the Nile river.


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## Safranek (Jul 9, 2022)

I found a city seemingly corresponding with Dangala at the top of your map, closely named Dongola in Sudan. Could it have kept the name through all this time?

Dongola · Sudan

and...

Old Dongola - Wikipedia

Coincidentally (or not according to the book in my above post), Dangala is located in the province of Makuria and their Royal Standard according to the _Book of Knowledge of All Kingdoms_ just happens to be the same as the Kingdom of Hungary._ 






_

I'm going to try and get through more of that book.


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## iseidon (Jul 10, 2022)

Safranek said:


> I found a city seemingly corresponding with Dangala at the top of your map, closely named Dongola in Sudan. Could it have kept the name through all this time?
> 
> Dongola · Sudan
> 
> ...


Speaking of the Hungarian trail in Africa. About two years ago, I was looking through towns in the bays. And in Madagascar, I found an interesting story about the town of Maroantsetra. It was founded by an 18th century Hungarian military officer, Maurice Benyovszky. According to Wikipedia, he was captured by Russia during the war between Russia and the Bar Confederation in 1769. He was exiled to Kamchatka. Escaped via Macau and Mauritius to France. Later, in 1773, he went to Madagascar on a trade mission. Faced with serious problems with the climate, terrain, and local Sakalawa people, he left the faction in 1776. This sounds very much like a description of an exploration of the island or an unsuccessful war effort. It is possible that there was no exile. But there was a reconnaissance of the territory around the conditional Turkestan-Siberia. Where it was impossible to sneak in. Pay attention to the dates, if they can be trusted. At the same time, there was Pugachev's rebellion and the War of Independence. From 1781 to 1783 he was in the United States on the recommendation of Benjamin Franklin. And had contact with George Washington.

There are many other interesting (very interesting) points about his life.

Even the wikipedia expresses doubts about his biography:



> Much of what Benyovszky claimed to have done in Poland, Kamchatka, Japan, Formosa, and Madagascar is questionable at best, but in any case has left no lasting traces in the history of war, exploration, or colonialism.



By the way, the etymology of the word Madagascar is not clear. For example, I clearly see the root "kar" ("black" in Turkic languages) at the end. Which is not unreasonable, in my opinion.

So perhaps there is a Hungarian trail in Africa. I attribute this to the fact that each culture was given its own heroes, composers, writers, artists, etc. These heroes are collective images of real people from the old world (or generated from streams of information about the ancient world + added elements from the new world). According to its position in the new hierarchy, each group-nation received a corresponding number of heroes and cultural layers. Perhaps somewhere there was an interaction between the old world and the new world, which gave birth to new unique cultural layers. In my opinion, this well explains the regression in culture and architecture at the beginning of the 20th century (which was covered up by the words "avant-garde" and "constructivism").


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## Silveryou (Jul 11, 2022)

Translating the new maps by Ignazio Danti is a pain in the $$!

The problem with this new maps is the fact that words are intertwined with the lines upon which sentences were written. And here I can already see something really peculiar and deserving a reflection.

They say Danti (Ignazio Danti - Wikipedia) was exiled by his patrons in Florence and substituted by Bonsignori (Stefano Bonsignori (cartographer) - Wikipedia), but unreadable texts apart (for the reasons I told before), it is absolutely fascinating to see how the grammar, the lettering and the contents proposed by Bonsignori already 'feel' older.

Danti's content I've read until now seems concerned more with 'recent' history or in any case he is not going to touch the same 'mythological' aspects proposed by Bonsignori. His narrative feels more in line with our own, as if the cut with the 'mythological' part was already happened.
Not only that but the Italian used by Danti is far more understandable and modern compared to the one used by Bonsignori. I'm not going in detail on this subject because I fear to give incorrect informations though.
When it comes to the lettering, Danti is almost modern, while Bonsignori used plenty of those abbreviations very popular in Latin writings from the middle-ages. No trace of it in Danti. Here below an example from Bonsignori:





*iqli no pò *stands for *i qUAli noN pERò*​In modern Italian it would be written in a different order, the same used by Danti, as _*"i quali però non..."*_. It may seem an insignificant change but it's not. Just observe how many times I mess up the order of the sentence with my English, sometimes making it difficult for you to understand what I'm saying.


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## fabiorem (Jul 19, 2022)

I did not read all the thread, but René Guenon once wrote that Ethiopia was just another name for Atlantis. 
Knowing the city-state of Atlantis is the Eye of the Sahara, and that the Sahara desert was once green, and that Fomenko said Alexandria was the previous capital of the Roman Empire (Constantinople being the second), we can assume that Egypt (Aegyptus, from where comes the word "gypsy") was originally Rome, maybe a part of Atlantis, and later they migrated to the balkans, creating a new Rome there.


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## Starfire (Jul 29, 2022)

This has been a very intriguing thread. I will make several posts that could help answer questions posed in the thread.

I believe it was during the discussion about the map of Sicily/Sardinia/Corsica that the Hun conquest of the Roman Empire from the south came up. The thread and comments below address that:

I read the transcript of an excellent lecture posted by dreamtime. A Hungarian writer/researcher named Toth Gyula uses Hungarian national chronicles to reexamine the reasons for and timing of Attila the Huns' conquest. It turns out that a portion of his army was sent to Spain, conquered through North Africa as the Vandals, ruled Carthage for 100 years and conquered Italy and the Mediterranean islands from the south. I have included a quote, but it is worth your time to read the whole transcript. He dives deep into numerous chronologies and calendar systems to understand the Hungarian timeline he is suggesting. He shows a phantom period of over 300 years. He puts together a pretty convincing thesis that Attila was a Christian ruler and two of his sons were Constantine and Charlemagne, who were contemporaries of each other and ruled the eastern and western halves of the Christian Holy Roman Empire.

From Scythia to Maghreb: Beyond the Phantom Middle Ages

"...Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia has a collective name. This area is called “Maghreb".... it seems that the Hungar captains had settled in North-Western Africa, the ones that Atilla sent against Sultan Miramammona, the ones who didn't dare return before the eyes of Atilla, because they were late for the Battle of the Catalaunian plains. Now then, there these Hungar captains founded this 100 year long Alan-Vandal blooming empire, and starting from there, from North Africa, they went on to attack the Roman colonies, Rome itself, and occupied many Mediterranean islands."
A topic that came up in the narrative of several maps was Noah, his son Ham and Ham's son Canaan. It was interesting to read about them as active people throughout the history of Europe. It seems like Ham and Canaan just ran from place to place causing trouble, with Noah chasing them down and setting them straight. The Albanian parallels to language and geography were strong, thank you to that poster.

Someone brought up the Curse of Canaan/Curse of Ham. Here is my recent find regarding that:

Here's a link and quote from Judah, a writer/researcher on wordpress. He writes a lot regarding Hebrews and Black Hebrew Israelites, delving into dna haplogroup research, apocryphal Bibical books (especially Book of Jubilees) and Jewish writings. He has a great series of articles on the Lost Tribes of Israel. He has some strong opinions and is quite religious, but has some well researched alternative viewpoints.

Anyway, he puts forth a pretty strong argument that Ham had sex with Noah's wife/his own mother when Noah was passed out drunk and Ham walked in and saw her naked.  Cannan was the product of that incest, and that's why he is referred to the way he is and why he is cursed by Noah.

Caucasian Canaanites: Understanding Europe and the LGBTQ Era - Condir

"_And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan. These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread. – Genesis 9:18-19"

"And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. – Genesis 9:22"

Ham came into his father’s tent and saw Noah’s nakedness. Why is that even a problem? Is it so bad for a full-grown man to see another man naked? Is that enough reason to curse a man’s descendant to perpetual servitude? After all, it was a crime committed by Ham, not Canaan.

"The nakedness of thy father’s wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father’s nakedness. – Leviticus 18:8"

This text is simply saying a man’s nakedness is having sex with his wife. Leviticus 18 was talking about incestuous relationships, not looking at unclothed bodies of close relatives. To uncover nakedness is to remove clothes with a sexual goal in mind....Putting this in the context of Genesis 9, Ham must have had sex with his father’s wife....The incest incident resulted in a pregnancy and the offspring was Canaan. This is why the Bible lists Canaan along with Noah’s son because he is technically his stepson from his wife with Ham....To make matters worse, Ham went out and bragged about his ‘conquest’ to his brothers....Fortunately, Ham’s brothers were wiser than he. Take a look at what his brothers did.

"And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness. – Genesis 9:23"

Noah finding [out] at birth....would explain how Noah knew the child’s name and gender. It would also explain the other meaning of Canaan which people don’t talk about – humiliate."_


***I had an odd thought as I was composing this post***

Canaan really seems to get away with a lot more than he should! He's moving into other people's lands and tents and being really disrespectful in general. What if this privilege is related to his parentage/ bloodline percentages? Because Canaan's mother was Noah's wife and not Ham's wife, Canaan would have been one step closer to Adam than the other sons of Ham, Shem and Japheth (so more pure blood). Ham may have purposely impregnated Noah's wife as a power play to make his child more special than the other children!!! Make HIS child the designated heir of Noah. But it backfired...

This suggestion is based on Sumerian stories regarding Annunaki traditions of siblings and half-siblings having children with each other to concentrate their bloodlines and position the child as the strongest heir. 

I know this is a radical post (among radical posts). When I first read Jonah's supposition about Canaan's parentage it made a lot of sense. It finally explained a couple of confusing things about that whole passage in Genesis 9 and in the Book of Jubilees (which includes a lot more details about the whole Noah/Ham/Canaan fiasco and everything else too).

One more thing, I will look for the graphic of it. When mitochondrial dna (passed from mothers) is traced back, there is a point where it narrows down to four women. If it were just the wives of Shem, Ham and Japheth having kids, then it should narrow to three women. But there's four. This means Noah's wife kept having kids, either with Noah or Ham. This helps explain why it was important to mention Canaan with the three sons in Genesis9:18, because together they represented four bloodlines from four women. I'm pretty sure that Judaism is traced on the mother's side, that you are not a Jew unless your mother is a Jew.


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## Starfire (Jul 29, 2022)

Here is a diagram representing the mitochondrial DNA bottleneck that occurred because of the flood. This is from creationist Dr. Nathaniel Jeanson, he only points out the three branches he is interested in. But I see a clear fourth branch which would be Noah's wife.


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## tudahbara (Aug 9, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> The Chichimecs who remained in the mountains (they lived in deep caves) left the new people in quiet possession of their lands, and learned some of their customs, to the extent that they began to build huts, elect governors and live according to their laws.




Deuteronomy 32:21
They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with *those which are not a people*; I will provoke them to anger with a _foolish_ [#H5036 nabal: stupid ; wicked, vile person] nation.


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## Code For Faith (Aug 15, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> 1. were deutch people really descended from Noah?


We are all the offspring of Noah since only him, his wife, his three sons and their wives -- and a lot of animals -- made it on the ark.

 "And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth. And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood." [Genesis 7:6-7]


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## pushamaku (Aug 16, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Seventh map titled ‘Trogloditica’ by Stefano Bonsignori.


I find it fascinating that maps from a century later [ca. 1680] (link below) still have the same town/city names that sound like they belong in fantasy books but seemingly existed and we still have no idea what really happened to them.. Amazing...

Accuratissima totius Asiæ tabula in omnes partes divisa (click Advanced Zoom to see details)
(A hand colored map of Asia covering Saudi Arabia, Russia, India, China, Japan to Southeast Asia.)


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## Code For Faith (Aug 16, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> _It took the name Gaul from Celtus_ (Galate) _son of Egyptian Hercules_ (Ercole Egizzio)_, or from the Gauls_ (Galli)_ first inhabitants of that land, so called by the Arameans_ (Aramei) _and the Hebrews_ (Ebrei)_, because they ran into danger due to the waters of the flood._


Interesting, I just saw the story of the Gauls being called this way because of the floods on an old French map: Mappe Monde Celeste Terrestre et Historique 1787

But they also name a different founder called "Pharamond". May a question of who settled there first VS who was the first political leader? Or is it the same man under two different names?

Anyway, it's nice to see some matching information from unrelated material!


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## HELLBOY (Oct 14, 2022)

Do you have the translation of the map that talks about Mexico?  Mexico - Egnazio Danti - Google Arts & Culture


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## Silveryou (Oct 14, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> Do you have the translation of the map that talks about Mexico?  Mexico - Egnazio Danti - Google Arts & Culture


yessir, wait


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## _harris (Oct 14, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> View attachment 23323


looking at this map... is that an _unlabelled _Pompei?!?!
(also seems like a lot of plotting was done from Napoli!!)



it's certainly in the right place...


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## Silveryou (Oct 14, 2022)

Map of New Spain (Nvova Spagna) by Ignazio Danti for @HELLBOY. You're not gonna find anything remarkable though, imo.
Mexico - Egnazio Danti - Google Arts & Culture



​_The country of new Spain is similar to the old except for its harsher mountains, which are not as easy to climb and some of them extend for more than 500 miles. In this province there are great rivers, beautiful springs of fresh water and rich woods of Pines, Cypresses, Cedars, Oaks and other types of trees in the mountains and plains. In said province are many mines of Gold, Silver, Tin, Copper and Iron. There are very pleasant Hills and countrysides, and they are always covered with green grass, in all the seasons* of the year and in many places they gather from … …***, to be …*** during the Equinox.
Among the biggest and major cities of this province the chief city is the great city of Mexico, which floats in water as Venice _(Vin...ia) _but in a lake whose Southern_ (Ostro) _side, where big ships**** enter, is composed of fresh water, while the Northern _(Tramontana) _half where the city is located is composed of salt water. This lake is surrounded by mountains on all sides except between North-East_ (Greco) _and North and its circumference is about 120 miles. The inhabitants of such city are today all christians. Men of scarse acumen***** but peaceful, they learn with great ease everything is taught to them, thing I can tell by personal experience … friar Alfonso fr. Dis. Domenico****** (born in said city by mexican father) who came in Spain and Italy _(Italia) _and in a short time made great improvements not only in languages but also in philosophy and Theology. And as the aforementioned has told me, it’s already many years that the King_ (Re) _of Spain ordered the construction of a university where are more than 4000 students. In this city there are 100025 houses as some write and how the aforementioned friar Alfonso confirmed me, who, having seen Venice, said it was two-thirds smaller than Mexico, even though Cortes_ (Cortese) _said there were only 70000 souls, unless the printing******* is wrong and means 700000.
This map was made using the coastlines drawn by the Castilians_ (Castigliani) _in their nautical Charts while the remaining interior was taken from the reports of Cortes and others who went there, and from some maps of said province._

* can't read what is written

** not sure he is talking of ships, because the term is unreadable. So I’m just saying ‘ships’ based on what I already know and what is logic for the context.

*** Don't shoot the messenger!!! The text uses the word ‘invetion’, with a trait upon the ‘e’ probably indicating a following ‘n’. Therefore we have ‘invention’, possibly meaning ‘acumen’… but hey, translate it as you want!

**** can’t tell why he repeats ‘fr.’ two times and what ‘dis.’ means

***** it’s not very clear what is written. I think ‘unless the printing’ is the best fitting scenario, possibly hinting at a mistake done in various books of that time reporting wrong datas.

Danti's maps are quite meager in terms of historical informations, when compared to those by Bonsignori. They are hard to translate mostly due to the worse condition of the maps and the use of lines in the captions probably to write sentences without going up and down with words and letters (problem is that the ink of those lines covers the letters making it difficult to understand sometimes).
Overall the history contained in these maps is more in line with that taught in the XVII century, after the 'new wave' of historical matters started by Scaliger at the end of the XVI century. It seems a little weird to see how both the history told and the language used by Danti seem more modern than those used by Bonsignori!

When it comes to this map I can't add anything. Maybe you @HELLBOY can say something, although I think we are dealing with details...


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## Silveryou (Oct 14, 2022)

fabiorem said:


> I did not read all the thread, but René Guenon once wrote that Ethiopia was just another name for Atlantis.


Well, here they say the Nile river was sometimes called 'Ocean', so...



Code For Faith said:


> Interesting, I just saw the story of the Gauls being called this way because of the floods on an old French map: Mappe Monde Celeste Terrestre et Historique 1787
> 
> But they also name a different founder called "Pharamond". May a question of who settled there first VS who was the first political leader? Or is it the same man under two different names?


Pharamond was considered to be the first King of the Franks, who are nowadays considered to be a different entity from the Gauls. It seems that France took its name from the Ile-de-France, where Paris is located, only during the XVII century according to the maps we have. Before that century the country was called Gaul and it inhabitants the Gauls. Even the Kings were referred to as the Kings of Gaul...



_harris said:


> looking at this map... is that an _unlabelled _Pompei?!?!
> (also seems like a lot of plotting was done from Napoli!!)


I think it's more probable it is Torre del Greco by its position, the city where the stele talking about Pompeii and Herculaneum buried in 1631 is located.
(You're preaching to the choir, @_harris )


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## HELLBOY (Oct 15, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Map of New Spain (Nvova Spagna) by Ignazio Danti for @HELLBOY. You're not gonna find anything remarkable though, imo.
> Mexico - Egnazio Danti - Google Arts & Culture
> 
> View attachment 25875​_The country of new Spain is similar to the old except for its harsher mountains, which are not as easy to climb and some of them extend for more than 500 miles. In this province there are great rivers, beautiful springs of fresh water and rich woods of Pines, Cypresses, Cedars, Oaks and other types of trees in the mountains and plains. In said province are many mines of Gold, Silver, Tin, Copper and Iron. There are very pleasant Hills and countrysides, and they are always covered with green grass, in all the seasons* of the year and in many places they gather from … …***, to be …*** during the Equinox.
> ...


True, there is nothing out of the already known.

What I was noticing, is the fact that it depicts Tenochtitlan as Mexico 1565 only 43 years after the fall of Tenochtitlan and in fact places a Tenochtitlan city below Mexico City.






If you align the map of Cortes 1521, the map of Upsala 1550 in this placement, they coincide with the Temix - Titan of Cortes. They all have Chapultepec in the lower left corner.








https://www.loc.gov/resource/gdcwdl...wpTz06S1cNjGZ2A0&r=-0.541,0.101,1.669,0.657,0
https://www.loc.gov/resource/gdcwdl...L0Es7Dcmk5b8Gmg&r=-0.035,-0.026,1.075,0.423,0





I have a current timeline of the city and I believe it did not grow at all for centuries. I also placed the images in the same perspective, the difference is that in this one the lake of Texcoco is present on the right.











You can see how what is now the historic center was kept at bay and the city did not begin to grow until after 1850. 1810 Independence of Mexico, 1910 Mexican Revolution.


I see how in the ancient maps they do know the size of Lake Chapala but not the size of Lake Texcoco, only the small area of Tenochtitlan is shown.


Composite Map: Tome VI. No. 30. Page 117. Carte tres curieuse de la Mer du Sud. North and south sheets





​
I remember that in Ogilby's engravings of old and new Mexico you can see a lake already drying up in 1671 and the transformation of the city with architecture out of the ordinary.​



Vetus Mexico.



Nova Mexico.​Well, that's mainly what I emphasize. How the city doesn't start to grow until 1850 onwards.
The rapid transformation from one city to another.
The absence of pyramids that crowned the center of the city.
Although today there are quite a few around the city. Tlatelolco Google Maps b1!8m2!3d19.4523693!4d-99.1384147!3m4!1s0x85d1f92383c87ca7:0x179e8c60050933eb!8m2!3d19.4512852!4d-99.1375018










fotos de vishnu montando a garuda - Szukaj w Google​
There in the Parish of Santiago Apostol, I think it is old enough to have some alternative history, it has murals of San Cristobal el Cinocéfalo, no more, there I leave related links of mine. They also have the eagle ridden by someone, which reminds me of Vishnu riding Garuda and Zeus riding the Eagle. I think this may be related to Preste Juan - San Cristobal - Cristobal Colon.
Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany
The secret of the twins Quetzalcoatl and Xolotl


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## Safranek (Oct 30, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> This is going to be interesting for the few people interested in history on stolenhistory. Third map titled ‘L’Egitto’ by Stefano Bonsignori.
> 
> View attachment 23225​_Saturn_ (Saturno)_, namely Ham_ (Cam) _called Camese, the youngest son of Noah_ (Noe) _of those born before the flood, was the First King_ (P° Re) _of the very noble and famous Province_ (Provincia) _of Egypt_ (Egitto)_, in which since the beginning all sciences and good arts flourished, sciences and arts which all the other Provinces took up claiming to be the inventors. This Province was not ruled by an absolute monarchy as the other ones but was ruled by more people, which moderated the royal actions for certain definite periods, and this government was called Dynasty_ (Dinastia) _or Potentate_ (Potetato)_, which at first changed frequently. Later however those rulers, seduced by the well-being, began to stay more time in power sometimes even without a King. But during the 25th_ (XXV) _dynasty the Ethiopians_ (Etiopi)_ killed King Bocchoris_ (Boccoro)_ and occupied Egypt. Afterwards it was freed and then taken back and kept by the Persians_ (Persi) _during the 27th_ (XXVII) _dynasty, until it passed under Alexander the Great _(Alessandro il Grande) _when he subdued them, whose successors left the title of Pharaohs_ (Faraoni) _behind and called themselves Ptolemies_ (Tolemei)_. These ruled not only upon most of Africa_ (Affrica)_, but also upon the island of Cyprus_ (Cipri) _and Phoenicia_ (Fenicia)_, until the Romans _(Romani) _took Egypt and reduced it into a Province. But it was taken away from them in the time of Emperor Heraclius_ (Eraclio Imperadore) _by the Arabs_ (Arabi) _and Saracens_ (Saracini)_, who brought it back under one Prince_ (Principe) _called Sultan_ (Sultano)_ by them. But Selim _(Selimo)_, great Lord of the Turks_ (Signore dei Turchi)_, obtained it and turned it into a Province during the rulership of the Emperor Maximilian_ (Massimiliano)_. The Sultans put out the ancient nobility and virtue of this land, but the superb pyramids still bear testimony to its greatness and power. And its inhabitants still enjoy the extraordinary fertility of the soil due to the Nile_ (Nilo)_, that every year inundates the entire country. Since it becomes very capacious due to its springs being located beyond the equinoctial in those places where it’s winter during the month of June_ (Giugno)_, the Nile was called Ocean_ (Occeano)_, after Ocean son of Noah, and the Province was called Aeria, which took a different name after its King Egypt. Contiguous to Egypt is the Province of Marmarica, fertile near the sea and barren elsewhere, celebrated for the famous temple of the great Jupiter Ammon_ (Gioue Ammone)_, to which the whole world longs for*** an answer from its oracle._
> 
> ...


I came upon this book quoted by someone in the forum (can't remember what thread).

https://ia601504.us.archive.org/28/...15.98292/2015.98292.Book-Of-The-Knowledge.pdf

I decided to try and match some names of cities on the map and since the Egypt map is one of the first, I checked out Egypt (pg. 22 of the book).

This is what I found so far:














This is what it looks like on the map (I couldn't find Ribas Aluas);









When you look at the description of the flags and relationships in that book, it doesn't seem to match the history written for those times, whatever they may be.

It would be interesting to see what else matches up with the voyage described in that book, not to mention matching up some of the flags and relationships between kingdoms.

If anyone has sufficient interest and time on your hands, try having a go at it.


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## _harris (Oct 31, 2022)

Safranek said:


> This is what it looks like on the map (I couldn't find Ribas Aluas);
> 
> View attachment 26168


"Ribas Aluas" = "Ripe Bianche"
Alua=Alva=Alba=White=Bianche 

i'm sure translation has a large part in the varying place names we see on old maps!


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## Silveryou (Oct 31, 2022)

_harris said:


> Ribas Aluas" = "Ripe Bianche"


You are correct, there's in fact a 'Ripe Bianche' on the map.



Safranek said:


> It would be interesting to see what else matches up with the voyage described in that book, not to mention matching up some of the flags and relationships between kingdoms.


I've found various names used in that time and now belonging to myth or to that presumably not interesting part of history which historians miserably fail to see. I frankly don't have the stamina to do such a job, even though it would be extremely interesting and possibly revealing.

A passing by thing I noticed while looking at the map, apart from Luchon being Luco on the map, is that it's showed the location of Apollonia, the 'ancient' Greek city now called Susa (Susa, Libya - Wikipedia). It's interesting that here on the map it is assumed to be a location still populated despite historians telling us it fell into ruin in 'ancient' times. And not only it was inhabited but it had a new name, Bonandria, which is not acknowledged anywhere...


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## Safranek (Oct 31, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> I've found various names used in that time and now belonging to myth or to that presumably not interesting part of history which historians miserably fail to see. I frankly don't have the stamina to do such a job, even though it would be extremely interesting and possibly revealing.


Hence why I see the only realistic alternative is to start to match some of these places in the map, which do not in any way fit into the current historical narrative, and this to be done sporadically by those interested in their local environs or those of others.

The next step would be to research the chronological discrepancy in the logos/standards/flags and their relationship, and see how they may fit the 'legends and myths' from old books that still may have some of this information.


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## Starfire (Nov 5, 2022)

This map shows a lot of cities where the Sahara Desert starts these days. And that is a forest or jungle of trees just west of Egypt!


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