# Is the city of Fayum the reason for the presence of Pyramids and Obelisks in Piranesi's engravings?



## HELLBOY (Dec 23, 2021)

I remember that Piranesi's engravings show a great variety of Pyramids, Obelisks. So they make us wonder if in fact Pyramids and Obelisks were part of the structures of the same culture, together with triumphal arches and "Greco-Roman" styles.
So when I read Herodotus' accounts of the Pyramids of Fayum and its Labyrinth, a city that happened to be very famous among Greeks and Romans, perhaps the time frames between Egyptians, Greeks and Romans are not so far apart.
I also knew of El Fayum portraits or mummy portraits from El Fayum, mummy portraits to a type of naturalistic portrait painted on boards of different types of wood or on canvas, which cover the face of many mummies from the Roman province of Egypt.
In fact, the El Fayum portraits are the only large body of art of that tradition, with about a thousand specimens, that has survived and that was continued in the Byzantine and Western traditions in the post-classical world, including the local traditional Coptic iconography in Egypt.
SH Archive - What was Giovanni Battista Piranesi trying to say. 17-18th century apocalypse?

*Herodotus* describes it as follows:


But although the labyrinth is such a rich and grandiose work, the lagoon called Meris, near which it was built, causes even greater admiration. The lagoon has a circumference of 3,000 stadia, a measure that corresponds to sixty schenos, the same length as the maritime coasts of Egypt; it runs along from north to south, and has fifty orgias of depth at its greatest depth. By itself it declares that it is the work of hands and artificial.
The land in the whole region being so arid and lacking in water, it cannot be born in the lagoon itself, but has been conducted to it by a canal derived from the Nile; and in fact, it passes from the river to the lagoon during six months, in which the fishing yields to the treasury twenty mines daily, and leaves the lagoon in the other six months, which produce to the same treasury a talent of silver every day.
Lake Moeris - Wikipedia







They agreed to leave a monument in the common name of all, and with this object they built the labyrinth, a little beyond the Meris lagoon, towards the city called of the Crocodiles. I wanted to see it for myself, and it seemed to me even greater than what is usually said and made expensive. I will venture to say that whoever goes through the fortresses, walls and other factories of the Greeks, who boast of their greatness, will find none among them that is not lesser and inferior in cost and labor to the said labyrinth.



















Mummy portraits have been found throughout Egypt, but are most common in the Fayum region, and in particular the necropolis of Hawara is famous, hence the name; although the "Fayum portraits" are considered more of a stylistic description than a geographical one. While instances of mummy paintings date back to the Pharaonic period, the mummy portraits of El Fayum were an innovation dating to the time of the Roman occupation of Egypt.
Fayum mummy portraits - Wikipedia


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## Silveryou (Dec 23, 2021)

There is definitely a connection between southern Italy and Egypt. Many Italians pose as 'nordic' and 'indo-european', while the reality is in their faces. The portraits at Pompeii are proof enough for me, the other proof being the presence of a Pope in southern Egypt/Nubia.

Obviously all these portraits are from the Renaissance period or later, imo.


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## Akanah (Dec 23, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> There is definitely a connection between southern Italy and Egypt. Many Italians pose as 'nordic' and 'indo-european', while the reality is in their faces. The portraits at Pompeii are proof enough for me, the other proof being the presence of a Pope in southern Egypt/Nubia.
> 
> Obviously all these portraits are from the Renaissance period or later, imo.


I would assume that the Mediterranean may not be as old as we are told today or the sea may have been much smaller in the past so that Italy was connected to Egypt.


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## Jd755 (Dec 23, 2021)

Akanah said:


> I would assume that the Mediterranean may not be as old as we are told today or the sea may have been much smaller in the past so that Italy was connected to Egypt.


It still is its just a bit of a hike!


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## HELLBOY (Dec 23, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> There is definitely a connection between southern Italy and Egypt. Many Italians pose as 'nordic' and 'indo-european', while the reality is in their faces. The portraits at Pompeii are proof enough for me, the other proof being the presence of a Pope in southern Egypt/Nubia.
> 
> Obviously all these portraits are from the Renaissance period or later, imo.



I understand that many believe that in the 15th century the Portuguese came in contact with the Christian kingdom of Ethiopia, in Africa, thought they had found this kingdom, considering the Ethiopian negus or negus negusti (king of kings) as the mythical Prester John. Other legends identify Prester John with John the Apostle, since, based on the 21st chapter of the Gospel of John, they assume that John the Apostle never died and was still alive in the Middle Ages. Prester John could have been one of the monarchs of Christian Ethiopia.
Prester John - Wikipedia




*"Preste" as the Emperor of Ethiopia, enthroned on a map of East Africa. From an atlas by the Portuguese cartographer Diogo Homem for Queen Mary, c. 1555–1559. *




*Prester John from Hartmann Schedel's Nuremberg Chronicle, 1493*




*Depiction of the Keraite ruler Toghrul as "Prester John" in "Le Livre des Merveilles", 15th century*





*"Preste Iuan de las Indias" (Prester John of the Indies) positioned in East Africa on a 16th-century Spanish Portolan chart*​Many official documents of emperors, popes, missionaries and merchants, along with numerous maps and travel books or fantastic literature, allude to this fantastic character and his fabulous kingdom, as someone true.

He was both ruler and priest, even patriarch according to some sources, hence his title of "preste" (apocope of presbyter), of a Christian nation isolated among Muslims and pagans somewhere in the East. According to medieval accounts, he was descended from the three Magi, and was both a generous ruler and a virtuous man, ruling over a territory full of riches and strange treasures, where the patriarchate of St. Thomas was located. His kingdom contained wonders, like a mirror through which he could see all his provinces, from whose original fable derived the "specular literature" of the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance. In it, the kingdoms of each prince were enumerated and their duties fixed.


They say he ruled over the three Indies, I wonder if one of them was America.​


Marcopolo also mentions Prester John as a monarch who ruled over many peoples including the Tartars who was later defeated by the Tartars.​

Marco Polo in his work.  According to the Venetian, the Tartars....




"by common consent, they elected as king one of their own, a man of theirs, a man of strength and prudence, whose name was Chinchis; this happened in the year of the Lord 1187. After his coronation, all the Tartars, who were scattered in other regions, came to him and willingly submitted to his rule. (...) Seeing himself exalted to such glory, he sent messengers to his king, requesting his daughter for his wife. This happened in the year of our Lord 1200. He received their request as a most grievous affront and responded harshly, for he said that he would sooner throw his daughter into the fire than give her as a wife to a slave of his, and outrageously expelled the envoys of Chinchis from his sight, saying to them, "Tell your lord that, since he has dared to rise to such haughtiness as to ask in marriage the daughter of his master, I will make him die a bitter death. "
("Il Millone "Chapter LII. Of the first king of the Tartars and of the quarrel with their king).
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/10636/10636-h/10636-h.htm

Hearing this, Chinchis "burst with anger and gathering a large army" headed for the lands of Prester John, exalted by the flattering omens of magicians and astrologers. After three days of battle, the Christian priest-king was killed, "and the Tartars completely subjugated his land".





This same fact wikipedia describes it as follows:

In 1218, Genghis Khan defeated Kuchlug, a Nestorian Christian khan (khan) of the Naiman tribe of western Mongolia, who ruled the Khanate of Kara-Kitai. However, as the Italian traveler Giovanni da Pian del Carpine observed, by the 13th century there was hardly any tolerance for Christians, and the Nestorians were already in decline precisely because of the rise of Genghis Khan, who had to contend with rivals who practiced a syncretism of Nestorian Christianity and shamanism.


This fact of placing Prester John in Kitai, Cathay, reminded me of the representation of the city of Quinsay which seems to be full of Obelisks and I believe a Pyramid.




La cosmographie universelle d'André Thevet. Vol. 1 (Afrique, Asie) / ,... illustrée de diverses figures des choses plus remarquables veuës par l'auteur... Tome 1er [-4e] | Gallica
https://lbezone.ust.hk/rse/wp-content/plugins/wp-imagezoom/zoom.php?id=LQgin​
All this about an Ethiopian descendant of Pres. John in Ethiopia reminded me of this picture:




*Queen Elizabeth II, the first and only time she has ever bowed to African royalty*
​*Also take a look at KD's thread in his forum: What event turned Scythia into Tartary?*


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## Silveryou (Dec 24, 2021)

HELLBOY said:


> I understand that many believe that in the 15th century the Portuguese came in contact with the Christian kingdom of Ethiopia, in Africa, thought they had found this kingdom, considering the Ethiopian negus or negus negusti (king of kings) as the mythical Prester John.


It seems to me that in this case as in many others we have a sort of geographical duplication, with a northern and southern representation which look at each other like in a mirror.

I can't really reply to everything, but if we remain in Africa then I know these geo-maps made by Stefano Bonsignori allegedly around the end of the 16th century and kept in Palazzo Vecchio in Florence. There are various captions which talk about Ethiopian history as seen in that period according to an Italian perspective. I'm not going to comment on them now 'cause it's too much.

















_Sudan _map (rough translation): "Saturn also called Cur son of Camese was true first King of this province (not very sure of the translation), initially called Eterea, afterwards called Ethiopia after King Etiope, and in which land the divine cult was always followed. A part of this region was occupied by the Indians, who didn't change its name though, and no other people entered therein. Only Cambyses planned to occupy it, but he gave up since the army was destroyed for lack of supplies. Ethiopians sent colonies in Egypt and Italy under Phaethon. They had their throne in Meroe, then Garama, nowadays in Zambra. It was since the beginning a mighty reign and it remained such even when changing government (not sure here). They say that their Emperor, called *pte Iani* (Priest John) is born from the lineage of David. And to avoid chances of revolutions in the state and dissent, only those with his blood live freely, the others all under vigilance. They accepted the faith in Christ by the predications of Philip the Apostle, and they never left it."



​_Gabon, Angola and Congo_ map (rough translation): "This happenings (the Portuguese expansion) have moved the Ethiopians to try conquering this land not only in the interior  but also along the coasts, trying to subtract them to the Portuguese and for this reason they have changed the capital (the throne) of Garama bringing it to Zambare, hoping to maintain these peoples in their usual quietness, teaching them their ancient beautiful and holy laws."



​_Horn of Africa - Ethiopia and Somalia_ map (rough translation): "They (the Troglodytae) obey to the great Lord of the Ethiopians called *Prete Iani*."






​_Kenya and Tanzania_ map (rough translation): "This part of higher Ethiopia was called such (how?!?!) from Ethiope son of Vulcan, who ruled here."
"This province is ruled by the Emperor of the Ethiopians called *prete Ianni*, who rules over XV great kingdoms under his Empire, and all of them united together, ten (not sure) of which were since the beginning ruled to follow the worship of the Gods, and the first sacrifices."

... then the text proceeds with the tale of Saint Philip (who in these maps is called the Apostle, not the Evangelist like in our days, probably hinting at a possible duplication of the same character) who converts an eunuch, apparently called 'Ethiopian' in the Bible as much as the Queen Candice, called Ethiopian in the Bible but here apparently presented as a queen of one of the reigns of the Ethiopian Empire, even though she was descendant of Solomon as well.



​_Egypt _map (rough translation): "But during the XXV dinasty the Ethiopians killed King Boccoro and occupied Egypt."


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## HELLBOY (Dec 24, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> It seems to me that in this case as in many others we have a sort of geographical duplication, with a northern and southern representation which look at each other like in a mirror.
> 
> I can't really reply to everything, but if we remain in Africa then I know these geo-maps made by Stefano Bonsignori allegedly around the end of the 16th century and kept in Palazzo Vecchio in Florence. There are various captions which talk about Ethiopian history as seen in that period according to an Italian perspective. I'm not going to comment on them now 'cause it's too much.
> 
> ...





I don't know if you knew about this manuscript that brings a totally different history to the official one and that talks about Preste Juan?

El Becerro general: book in which the coat of arms used by many kingdoms and empires, lordships ... and the genealogy of the lineages of Spain and the coats of arms they use are recounted.

The Manuscript: The General Calf
The author of this work is Don Diego Fernandez de Mendoza, a cavallero who allo in the war of Granada, chronicler of the Catholic Monarchs ...year 1671.
It includes a description of the arms of Preste Juan de las Indias, arms of the kingdom of Jerusalem, of Greece, Cyprus, Germany, Hungary, Frisa, Bohemia, Swabia and Gocia, Scotland, England, of the city of Rome, Naples, of the Master of Rhodes, Dukes of Milan, of France, etc.


The manuscript uses two different versions of the same facts, and is presented as an enigma for the reader to solve. It tells how Christianity becomes dogma and its faith is imposed together with the authority of Prester John, but with two different stories that, according to the author of the manuscript, should be understood. In the first, an alliance is established through a marriage between an Indian princess and a European knight, which gives rise to the imposition of Christianity. In the second, the appearance of Christ would have been a decision of three magi from the Indies, whose purpose would have been to create a spiritual leader in the image and likeness of the teachings of a worthy ancestor, choosing the patriarch Thomas, for whose custody the project and the power of Prester John is created. In a way, it tells us of two origins of the same myth: the political and the spiritual.
In this manuscript appears a historical nonsense. Or, rather, a lot of nonsense. In the first place, it calls into question the character of the prophet Jesus, and invites us to think that it is a character devised in the area of Egyptian-Persian-Indian influence, in the manner of other equivalent icons. Secondly, it questions the authority of the popes of Rome, as leaders of the Christian church from its beginnings, and grants this dignity to a priest, called John, who, on the other hand, appears as a singular leader of Eurasia in the Middle Ages, until the European colonization of the XV-XVI century, but of whose trace there is no collective conscience. Thirdly, the powers of the Dukes of Alba, and of the kings of Portugal, are said to come from the medieval Greek imperial lineage, and that of the kings of Aragon from a related expedition from the Black Sea. And, fourthly, it points to an account very different from that of the Christian persecution or martyrdom of the first centuries, as well as that of the origin of Christianity as a state religion, which current official history attributes to Constantine, in the fourth century A.D., who was himself a contemporary of St. George. It relates it to a matrimonial alliance and, on the other hand, places these facts referring to medieval deeds, and ignoring any trace of the polytheistic Roman Empire. That is to say, it tells a chronicle that has little or nothing to do with the official historical reality. It hardly makes reference to concrete dates, and generates the reasonable doubt of the epoch in which the facts are located, entering in frank harmony with the New Chronology of Fomenko and Nosovskiy.
On the other hand, the elaborate and detailed exposition of the legendary origins of the Castilian nobles that are the focus of the second part of the manuscript is surprising. They are all treated as recreations of the past, which justify their coats of arms. According to the Muscovite reconstruction, these chronicles tell us about the creation of false beginnings that hide the takeover of the lands by an intrusive power, which would be Caucasian, as well as the creation of the surnames. Based on this, the suspicion is added to the fact that the author of the manuscript is considered a chronicler of King Ferdinand the Catholic; that he grew up in the house of his half-brother the Count of Ribagorza and Cortes; that no reference is made to the existence of the Catalans throughout the book; and that the book states that the chronicler worked in the service of the Grand Inquisitor of Castile, Cardinal Cisneros. That is to say, the explicit correlation between the one who commissions the reconstruction (the King), and the one who executes it (the chronicler), and the contradiction that supposes accepting an alternative history from such a remarkable source. It is about, therefore, more evidences that point to the New Chronology, that point to the manipulation of the history of Western Europe and, very especially, of Spain.



Prester John and the King of the Abexines
The "Abexines" is assimilated to "Abyssinia", which is the ancient name of Ethiopia, where history places Prester John.

In the Indies there was a great prince who lorded over all those parts, and at the time of his end he had only one daughter, and a very young one at that, who summoned all the great ones of his kingdom empire, and received from them tribute and oath that they would loyally guard his lordship, and that seeing the perfect age that of her pleasure and will she should marry and that the one she took should be received as Lord, and that it was in her hand to take a husband of any law, state or condition that she wished, who after coming to this effect of marriage age was required by the great ones to be conjugated, and they showed her the testament of her father. The Lady who was certified of this by all the parts of the world makes it known, saying that all the Lords of the three laws should come at a certain time, and whoever was most content would be hers with all the Kingdoms and Lordships to whose voice those who were of the law of Moses came in great and very great number.

Those of the sect of Mohammed, a great abundance of those went there with rich costumes, precious attire, and very light and skillful horses. Of the Christians were there kings, princes, dukes, marquises, and other noble men.

The said Don Juan was a very magnificent man and a great learned young man of very beautiful presence and of royal blood.

He made the Jews come before her. Say friends, if of necessity you were to leave your law, which would you take before, that of Mohammed or that of Christ. That of the Christians we would undoubtedly follow before. The Moors said the same thing. For the law and life of the Christians was better than another without theirs, which if they had need to deny, they would follow that of Christ. And seeing the princess the reason so pronounced, she said that she would deliberate to take a Christian husband.


St. John the Baptist blesses Prester John, as he officially does with Christ, in a situation that supposes, in both cases, the bet for Christianity. 
According to this chronicle, the "Prester John" was the one who acquired his powers by marrying the princess of the Indies, I feel cardinal and Christian Patriarch located in Rome. This story, however, does not coincide with the official one.
A second chronicle describes the creation of the powers of Patriarch Thomas, which would be equivalent to those of Christ, and those of Prester John, both works being carried out by three kings of the Indies, named Melchior, Gaspar and Balthasar. It should be noted that this second chronicle does not mention Christians, Moors or Jews.

It is written in the Sacred Scripture that there are three Indies. The first was the kingdom of Nubia in which at the time our Redeemer was born. There reigned King Melchior who offered him gold and was called King of Arabia and Nubia. And the second King who was called Balthasar reigned in the second part of India and was called King of Galijsaba, this was the one who offered incense. The third King of these was called Gaspar, who reigned in the third part of the Indies and was called King of Tarsi and Visola and Grisola. There is the body of the blessed Saint Thomas the Apostle. And these blessed Kings were after this bishops who were consecrated by the hand of the aforesaid apostle. They received the martyrdom of the apostle and with him together these glorious kings all together, the prelates and great men of the Indies, agreed to choose a notable man in memory of the apostle whom they would call Patriarch Thomas, and who would teach them in spiritual things and govern them whom as a saint in all things they would obey, one dead or perpetually see another whom they would choose. As agora do the holy fathers


The Redeemer, according to Christianity, was Jesus, but here he is placed in Upper Egypt, in Nubia, in the place that medieval maps assimilate to the land of Prester John, which official history places in Ethiopia. The conclusion follows, therefore, that the "Redeemer" could be Prester John himself, since medieval maps place him there. Another option is that it refers to Christ, as a person or symbol, and he was born there, being Egyptian, symbolically, like Horus.


"Galijsaba" is not known, but in the manuscript it is intuited that perhaps it is separated, as "Galij Saba", implying that perhaps it refers to the Kingdom of Saba, although historiography locates, with doubts, on the other side of the Red Sea. Later in this work, it is assimilated to Shewa, where Eleni, the empress of Ethiopia of the official 15th century, comes from.


The kingdom of Tarsi and Visola and Grisola is not known, but the city of Tarsus, which is in Turkey and is the birthplace of St. Paul the Apostle, according to the official Bible. Therefore, it may refer to the Turkish king. But, according to the official history, St. Thomas was buried in India, so it may be a domain located as far as those lands. The answer to this may be in the map that KD shows the kingdom called Argon founded by the apostle Thomas in the middle of Scythia. What event turned Scythia into Tartary?




This preste Juan now brings two coats of arms. One shield is all white silver with a black cross, with two gold staffs, and this is because in the land of Nubia there is an emperor and another in Ethiopia. They are vassals of Prester John, the one is emperor of Greciana, the other emperor of Damascus. And another white shield with a black cross with three arms, one over the other. The first longer and the second shorter, and the third smaller, as they are above. 







According to this second version of the story, the link between Prester John and the Christianity of the empire comes from the decision of some kings of the Indies, who later identify themselves as "Magi", where the role of Christ is held by the Patriarch or apostle Thomas. In the first version Prester John was blessed by St. John the Baptist, as Christ, and in the second version the Magi do not honor Christ, but Thomas, and it is they who, symbolically, baptize Christ and Prester John.
"Greciana" can be assimilated to Greece, and "Damascus" is written "Demagaso" in the manuscript. This point is relevant, since it expresses the power of the Preste over two main powers, the Christian and the Arab, and all this points to a pact or alliance that, as reconstructed in this research, has to do with the Ark of the Covenant kept in Ethiopia. On the other hand, its assimilation with the emperors of Nubia and Ethiopia, which in the manuscript is written "Entiopia", indicates that Prester John represents the power that unites them, being a situation that also contradicts the official history. In this sense, Saint Thomas would unite them, not Christ, being this the nexus with an origin of a lineage or power, which would have been recovered together with the creation of the power of Prester John.
The triple cross described corresponds to the symbol of the king of the Abexines, who are assimilated to the kingdom of Abyssinia, the ancient Ethiopia. Likewise, this triple cross, in the 21st century, is only held by the Pope of Rome, thus raising the reasonable doubt of the transfer of the powers of Prester John to Rome, as in fact already noted in the first chronicle of this section.


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## Inquisitor (Dec 26, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> There is definitely a connection between southern Italy and Egypt. Many Italians pose as 'nordic' and 'indo-european', while the reality is in their faces. The portraits at Pompeii are proof enough for me, the other proof being the presence of a Pope in southern Egypt/Nubia.
> 
> Obviously all these portraits are from the Renaissance period or later, imo.


Could you refer me to more information about the Pope in Egypt / Nubia? I haven't heard about this...


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## Silveryou (Dec 27, 2021)

Inquisitor said:


> Could you refer me to more information about the Pope in Egypt / Nubia? I haven't heard about this...


I was referring to a hypothesis by Andreu Marfull which HELLBOY knows as well. It says that the Pope is just Priest John coming from Nubia. It is suggesting but not necessarily true. You can read the paper here (El origen inédito del Cristianismo oficial, un matrimonio y/o un proyecto indio) with a translator if you're not accustomed with Castillian/Catalonian.



HELLBOY said:


> I don't know if you knew about this manuscript that brings a totally different history to the official one and that talks about Preste Juan?


Yes I read it a few years ago and re-read it when tou posted the link in some of your posts ('cause I recognized the image). Now a comment would be tooooooo long but I'll gladly have a discussion about it in the future


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## _harris (Jan 26, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> The kingdom of Tarsi and Visola and Grisola is not known


could be:

Tarsia, Italy
Visole, Slovenia
Grisolia, Italy


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## Mungo (Apr 17, 2022)

Don't laugh, who knows?


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