# What Are The Parallels?



## Wickson (Apr 24, 2022)

So I've been looking into all sorts of mythologies and their creation myths, including the Gnostic one which seems to have everything completely backwards compared to the others. The Gnostic Creation Myth - Gnosticism Explained

 I suppose I am trying to decode and parallel these entities with others from other mythologies, Norse, Greek and so on. We have Sophia who gave birth to Yaldabaoth who defiled Eve to make Yawheh amd Elohim. Eve and Adam seemed to have made Seth. Can this match up to the other mythologies? Is the lion headed serpent related to the world serpent? What of the thunder gods like Thor or Zeus? Or the time oriented gods like Odin, Kronus, or Saturn? What do you think?


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## HELLBOY (Apr 24, 2022)

Wickson said:


> So I've been looking into all sorts of mythologies and their creation myths, including the Gnostic one which seems to have everything completely backwards compared to the others. The Gnostic Creation Myth - Gnosticism Explained
> 
> I suppose I am trying to decode and parallel these entities with others from other mythologies, Norse, Greek and so on. We have Sophia who gave birth to Yaldabaoth who defiled Eve to make Yawheh amd Elohim. Eve and Adam seemed to have made Seth. Can this match up to the other mythologies? Is the lion headed serpent related to the world serpent? What of the thunder gods like Thor or Zeus? Or the time oriented gods like Odin, Kronus, or Saturn? What do you think?


Here I give you this Mexican entity to contribute to your parallels, he was born in a very similar way to Christ, the woman became pregnant only with the fall of a feather from heaven. He came to this earth only to defeat his brothers Titans.





Huitzilopochtli Huītzilōpōchtli - Wikipedia
He was the main deity of the Mexica, associated with the sun.
At the arrival of the Spaniards to Mesoamerica, he was the most worshipped deity in the Central Highlands by imposition of the Mexica.
According to Mexica mythology, Huitzilopochtli is the son of the goddess of Fertility (Coatlicue) and the young Sun son of the old Sun (Tonatiuh).
Birth of this god of war:

The god of war, according to legend, Huitzilopochtli was born of Coatlicue (or according to another myth of Omecíhuatl's theogony), Mother Earth, who became pregnant by means of a ball of feathers or bluish cotton that fell from the sky while sweeping the temples of the Tollan mountain range. Her 400 brothers (Centzonhuitznahua) upon noticing their mother's pregnancy and at the behest of their sister Coyolxauhqui, decided to execute the son at birth to hide the supposed dishonor, as Huitzilopochtli was an unnatural son of his father, Mixcóatl or Ometecuhtli. But Huitzilopochtli was born and took the mythical weapon Xiuhcoatl (fire serpent) in his hands, easily defeated and killed Coyolxauhqui and the Centzonhuitznahua, where Coyolxauhqui was dismembered when falling down the slopes of the mythological mountain called Coatepec. Huitzilopochtli took her sister's head and threw it into the sky, thus becoming the ruler of the Moon, Huitzilopochtli being the ruler of the Sun.

This Mexica deity is not common to other Nahua or Mesoamerican peoples, and was apparently popularized by the reformer Tlacaélel (1398-1480). After the Fall of Mexico-Tenochtitlan the Spanish conquistadors called it Huichilobos, who sought the prompt eradication of its cult by means of the association of the god with evil European qualities and the disappearance of sculptures, temples, codices and agricultural products associated with the deity.

HB: I think I understand why the Spaniards associated Huitzilopochtli with the devil, when I saw some engravings by Arnoldus Montanus from 1680 (Memorable Embassies of the East India Company of the United Provinces, to the Emperors of Japan. It contains several remarkable things happened during the journey of the ambassadors; and in addition, the description of the cities, towns ...). The engraving I show you is titled: The idol of the devil Vitziliputzli, Vitziliputzli is the one being defeated by that man Jabali who is neither more nor less than Vishnu in his avatar Varaja to defeat Jiraniakshá a demon Varaha - Wikipedia and then changed by his other avatar Narasinja is the avatar half man and half lion, hence I understand that a Japanese man carries a lion on his back. When the god Vishnu descended to Earth as his boar avatar Varaja, he killed a rákshasa known as Jirania Akshá. Jirania Akshá's brother, Jirania Kashipú, very angry about this, began to hate Vishnu and his followers. Narasimha - Wikipedia






Montanus himself supported Ogilby with engravings in his book: The Most Accurate Description of America https://www.gutenberg.org/files/59745/59745-h/59745-h.htm where we are also presented with Huitzilopochtli as a demon View: Viztlipuztli idolum Mexicanorum - Mexican Aztec Palace. interesting things are told in the book about this deity, made of wood, scary, on an ark, was brought out only on holidays.




HB: Take a look at Giovanni Fontana and his automata of very similar Demons: Giovanni Fontana (engineer) - Wikipedia maybe many of the similarities that we find in so many cultures is related to the coexistence of so many peoples that belonged to a huge nation, each people adapted it to their beliefs. By the way, these last days I have seen many parallels of different Mexican peoples with India, China, Italy, Cambodia, Indonesia, Greece, Egypt, etc.




*Giovanni Fontana (engineer)*​
HB: Check the engravings, they have interesting things like a Japanese ship with a Griffin flag. View: Page 61. Fayfena, Flibots a la maniere du Japon
A dog-headed god: View: Page 102. Temple consacres au Dieu Amida







Places full of idols, Indian gods and demons, Buddhism, Griffins, Dragons. Temple ou il y a 1000 Idoles = Temple met Duysend Beelden







The seal and arms of Iedo. 2. 2. Of Osacca. 3. Of Miaco View: Page 57. Le Sceau et le’Armes de Iedo. 2. D’Osacca. 3. De Miaco ...




Pieter van der Aa have other very interesting complementary engravings of Montanus as well, like this one from 1683. Duyvel in Afgoden Dienst. Diabolic and idolatrous service of the Circassians, etc. In Leide, with Pierre Vander Aa. (to accompany) La galerie agreable du monde ... This part includes the third volume of China and Greater Tartary. 122. Duyvel en Afgoden Dienst  It is a Circassia engraving where we can see caravans from as many nations as Japan, Tartars, Russians, Chinese, etc. Don't miss this one with people from different nations of the Tartar Empire 73. Cours, Habillemens, Salutations, etc. des Indiens


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## Quiahuitl (Apr 25, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> After the Fall of Mexico-Tenochtitlan the Spanish conquistadors called it Huichilobos, who sought the prompt eradication of its cult by means of the association of the god with evil European qualities and the disappearance of sculptures, temples, codices and agricultural products associated with the deity.


This is the most important statement in your post.  My Mexican contacts tell me the so-called 'Aztec creation myths' were all written down by the Spanish and that nobody believes them.  Although they may contain a grain of truth.  Cuautemoc (Montezuma) commanded his people to keep their knowledge hidden until the time of the sixth sun (now) when they would share it with the world.

Huitzilopochtli literally means 'Hummingbird flying left.'    Huitzilin is a hummingbird, which represents sexual energy or life force, which can remain motionless then move spontaneously in any direction.   The left side of the auric field is the conscious side and the right side the subconscious, so sexual energy moving left is life force.  For context, hummingbird flying right means dream planting.

One of my contacts says huitzilopochtli is analogous to one of our arch angels, since it is one of a group of four primary forces.

Tezcatlipoca - North
Xipe-Totec - West
Huitzilopchtli - South
Quetzalcoatl - East.

All of these have many names, including masculine and feminine names.  Coatlicue is one name for Xipe-Totec.  Xipe-Totec means 'Lord of shedding' and Coatlicue means the entwined serpents - life and death.  The same force that gives life also gives death. 

All things originate from the one energy Centeotl which is also called the Black Eagle.  The first things created by Centeotl were Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl, Mr and Mrs two - the perfect balance of male and female energies.  Everything else was created by them, starting with the four archangels, which were created in the order given above.



HELLBOY said:


> Huitzilopochtli Huītzilōpōchtli - Wikipedia
> 
> According to Mexica mythology, Huitzilopochtli is the son of the goddess of Fertility (Coatlicue) and the young Sun son of the old Sun (Tonatiuh).


This statement from Wiki broadly agrees with what my Mexican contacts have taught me.




HELLBOY said:


> Here I give you this Mexican entity to contribute to your parallels, he was born in a very similar way to Christ, the woman became pregnant only with the fall of a feather from heaven. He came to this earth only to defeat his brothers Titans.


Interesting because the Nahuatl name of the second chakra (where sexual energy is manifested) is feather.  




HELLBOY said:


> The god of war, according to legend, Huitzilopochtli was born of Coatlicue (or according to another myth of Omecíhuatl's theogony), Mother Earth, who became pregnant by means of a ball of feathers or bluish cotton that fell from the sky while sweeping the temples of the Tollan mountain range. Her 400 brothers (Centzonhuitznahua) upon noticing their mother's pregnancy and at the behest of their sister Coyolxauhqui, decided to execute the son at birth to hide the supposed dishonor, as Huitzilopochtli was an unnatural son of his father, Mixcóatl or Ometecuhtli. But Huitzilopochtli was born and took the mythical weapon Xiuhcoatl (fire serpent) in his hands, easily defeated and killed Coyolxauhqui and the Centzonhuitznahua, where Coyolxauhqui was dismembered when falling down the slopes of the mythological mountain called Coatepec. Huitzilopochtli took her sister's head and threw it into the sky, thus becoming the ruler of the Moon, Huitzilopochtli being the ruler of the Sun.



Interesting again because Xiuhcoatl (Fire serpent) is the method of erasing unwanted dreams.  Coatl (serpent) means knowledge. So - the knowledge of using energy to change our dreams. 



HELLBOY said:


> This Mexica deity is not common to other Nahua or Mesoamerican peoples, and was apparently popularized by the reformer Tlacaélel (1398-1480).


I think Tlaloc was the main deity, also associated with the South.

I think these archangels have been misunderstood and are actually a practical system of knowledge. For example Tezcatlipoca represents the self image of man.

Tezcatlipoca - the black smoking mirror - dreams, winds.
Xipe-Totec - Lord of shedding - constant change - life and death - Earth.
Huitzilopochtli - Hummingbird flying left - sexual energy - will - water
Quetzalcoatl - beautiful winged serpent - the precious knowledge - knowledge taking flight - fire


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## HELLBOY (May 4, 2022)

Quiahuitl said:


> This is the most important statement in your post.  My Mexican contacts tell me the so-called 'Aztec creation myths' were all written down by the Spanish and that nobody believes them.  Although they may contain a grain of truth.  Cuautemoc (Montezuma) commanded his people to keep their knowledge hidden until the time of the sixth sun (now) when they would share it with the world.
> 
> Huitzilopochtli literally means 'Hummingbird flying left.'    Huitzilin is a hummingbird, which represents sexual energy or life force, which can remain motionless then move spontaneously in any direction.   The left side of the auric field is the conscious side and the right side the subconscious, so sexual energy moving left is life force.  For context, hummingbird flying right means dream planting.
> 
> ...



Since the post talks about parallels between cultures, I have a few things to show.
Among scholars of ancient Indian texts, there is a notion that in present day Mexican territory there was a kingdom called Makshika, mentioned in the Mahabaratha, a Sanskrit word which they claim is the origin of the word "Mexica", (pronounced in Nahuatl "Meshica".  Curiously "Meksika" is the word for Mexico in the Turkish language today). According to this version, one of Arjuna's consorts would have come from this kingdom, and as a result of the union, an alliance would have been established between the Pandavas and this trans-pacific kingdom, where the goddess Kali was worshipped, (in this cult in India, at some time human sacrifices were common practice as part of their rituals). Under the terms of this alliance, the Makshika kings would have sent their armies and fought shoulder to shoulder alongside Arjuna against the Kauravas for the throne of Hastināpura (near present-day New Delhi) in the famous battle of Kurukshetra, narrated in detail in the Mahabaratha and lasting 18 days.


The goddess Kali and Huitzilopochtli share similarities if you analyze it.
The Hindu religion dedicated to Kali is called Shaktism. In it, the goddess represents the angry and destructive aspect of divinity. More complex tantric beliefs place her as the "ultimate reality" and the "source of being," although her early history as a creature of annihilation still retains some influence. Kali is the patron saint of the Indian city of Calcutta (in Bengal). Her main temple is the Kalighat, a place where animal sacrifices used to be performed in her honor and, in other places, even human sacrifices.
Kali - Wikipedia







No doubt Montanus'  Arnoldus Montanus  engraving of Japan is about Vishnu defeating a Demon that he strangely called Vitziliputzli.
It was not only in Japan and India that demons were represented in this way.

Etruscan mural typhon, is a primitive divinity related to hurricanes. He was the last son of Gaea, this time with Tartarus, the cavernous void below:
But when Zeus had driven the Titans out of the sky,
the enormous Earth bore his youngest son Typheus from the love of
Tartarus, with the help of the golden Aphrodite.
HIS MOTHER: GEA
FATHER: TARTARUS


​Charon (known as Charun to the Etruscans), the Greek ferryman of the dead.





Blue and horned angels and demons in Etruscan art.




Erlik, Erlig or Erlik Khan (in Hungarian mythology equivalent to Ördög) is the god of death and Tamag (hell) in Turkish mythology, and in the beliefs of other primitive Turkic peoples. According to Siberian mythology, Erlik was the first creation of Ülgen, the creator god, but Erlik's pride caused friction between the two, and he was banished to the underworld.
In the myths of the Turkic and Mongolian peoples, Erlik was involved in the creation of mankind. He killed the messenger god, Maidere / Maydere, and is a master of sin. He is sometimes represented by a totemic bear.
In Turkish mythology, Erlik was the deity of evil, darkness, the lord of the nether world and the judge of the dead. He is known as the first of mankind, created by Ulgen. He wants to be equal to Ulgen, but is in an inferior position to him. Then he wanted to make his own land and was sent to prison in the ninth layer of the earth and opposed the upper world, the realm of light.
The evil spirits created by Erlik cause misfortune, disease and death to mankind. These spirits are imagined as Erlik's assistants. In addition to these, his nine sons and daughters help their father in the way of evil. Erlik's daughters especially try to change the opinion of a shaman as he tries to reach Ulgen with his beauties. Erlik gives all kinds of diseases and wants sacrifices from people. If they do not sacrifice to him, he catches the corpses of the people he killed and takes them to this lower world and then makes them his slaves. Then, especially in the Altays, when disease appears, people are frightened of Erlik and make many animal sacrifices to him.
Erlik - Wikipedia







​Erlik is undoubtedly the version of Satan, it is practically the same story. It even runs very parallel with the belief of the Cathars.

An apocryphal gospel called "The Secret Supper", the only known Cathar religious text of a sacred character, exerted great influence on their doctrinal formulations, since the rest of the writings are prayers, reflections, discourses, commentaries, theological works.
Also known as the "Interrogation of John", this apocryphon records the dialogue between John and Jesus "at the Secret Supper of the Kingdom of Heaven on the organization of this world, the prince (Satan) and Adam".
Summarizing its content, we can see that Catharism participated in the Gnostic vision of the existence of a Good and Unknown God, who lived in the World of Light and Perfection (Pléroma), accompanied by his good angels (Eons).
However, one of these Eons....
"...beheld the glory of Him who moves the heavens. And he dreamed of sitting upon the clouds of the heavens, for he desired to resemble the Most High."
"And coming down from heaven into the firmament, neither he nor those who were with him could find a place to rest, and he called upon the Father and said, "I have sinned: have patience with me, and I will repay you all." And the Father had mercy on him and gave him time to do what he would until the seventh day. "
This free will was taken advantage of by Satan to create the World and Man.
"And he had a design to make a man to be at his service. He took slime from the earth and created him in his own likeness. Then he commanded the angel of the second heaven to enter into that body of slime. Then he took a piece of it, with which he formed another body in the form of a woman; and into the body of that woman he caused the angel of the first heaven to enter."
"And Satan compelled them to do the work of the flesh in these bodies of clay, but they knew not how to do sin."
Then Satan, "the creator of sin employing all his malice".
"planted a Paradise, within which he placed men and forbade them to eat of its fruits."
The fruits of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and of the Tree of Eternal Life.
We see, then, that for the Cathars, the God of the Old Testament is Satan himself. It is he who imprisons the true angelic and divine nature of men in bodies of flesh and blood.
Thus, it is concluded that.
"Therefore men are not called children of God, but children of the Devil and children of the serpent, because they do the devilish wills of their father, and will do them to the end of the ages."
And the fact is that after taking from the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, man acquired the capacity to judge, to discern and, therefore, to think, thus losing his original innocence. In this way he was not only bound in the world through his body, but also through his mind, a mind that, forgetting its spiritual part, turned man into the protagonist and co-author of the satanic creation.
Catharism, therefore, not only had a dualistic vision of the world based on the existence of a true and good God, creator of everything spiritual, and a false and evil God, creator of matter. He also believed in reincarnation.
But if Satan martyred men through the tribulations of their numerous lives, gnosis, a superior and saving knowledge that came from God, reconnected man with his angelic part, allowing him to return to the World of Light and Perfection to which he belonged.

Thus, Rome became by "divine design", "the great city that reigns over the kings of the Earth" (Rev 17:18), the Great Harlot of the Apocalypse, the city from which the Beast or Antichrist, has ruled the World. And it has done so, according to the Prophecies of St. Malachi, until the year 2013, that is, until the pontificate of the current Pope Francis I.

From now on we will discover something: that the Church was never as "fanatical" as many believe, because in the shadows it always protected..., what publicly burned the fire of the Inquisition. All to keep together an ignorant and fanatical people.


Being the serpent who granted the knowledge, it is the reason why many times it does not have an evil meaning.


​Genie (from Arabic, جن yinn), sometimes transliterated as djinn or jinn is a spirit in pre-Islamic Arabic mythology.
Like humans, jinn are created in a state of fitra, or purity, meaning that they are born believing in the Oneness of God; it is their environment that changes this natural disposition of every creature. Jinn, therefore, are not naturally evil or benign.
Therefore, genii are considered responsible for misfortune, possession and diseases. However, they are different, especially because jinn can be supportive and benevolent.
Jinn - Wikipedia

According to the Qur'an, which mentions them some twenty-nine times, they are created from fire (as stated in Sura Ar-Rahman, verses 14 and 158) to worship God9 , are endowed with free will and will be judged with humans on the Day of Judgment.
The form genie, comes (in this meaning) from the French genie. Indeed, this was the form chosen by the French translators of "The Thousand and One Nights" to designate the yinn mentioned in the tales of this anthology.
Yinn is the collective noun of جَنّ / جُنّ yann, which comes from the Semitic root ج ن ن ن (Ŷ-N-N), 'to hide' 'to conceal'; for such a reason their name is usually interpreted as "beings who are hidden from the senses". Words like majnūn (مَجْنُون ) 'possessed', or generally 'mad', yannah (جَنَّة) 'garden', in the sense of 'enclosure hidden from view' and yanīn (جَنِين) 'embryo' are related to the same root and always convey the idea of something that is present but cannot be seen. However, Nünlist has sought the origin of the term in Aramaic ginnaya ܓܢܬܐ) with the meaning 'tutelary deity'.
In ancient Arabia, the term genie was also applied to all kinds of supernatural entities among various religions and cults, such as Sabeism; as well as to Zoroastrian, Christian and Jewish angels and demons.
Islam considers genies to be beings created from smokeless fire, endowed like human beings with free will and who can obey either God or Iblis, the devil, who is sometimes described as such, i.e. as a fallen angel, and is sometimes considered a genie:

We have created man out of clay, out of moldable clay.
We created the jinn before out of the burning fire.

(Koran, 15, 26-27)
The jinn are thus the third class of beings created by God, along with men and angels.
Jinn, unlike angels, share the physical world with humans and are tangible, even if they are invisible or take various forms. Genies and humans can marry and procreate.
An example of both the popular belief in genies and that they can be beings worthy of devotion and imitation can be found in Morocco, where, within the framework of the very popular cult of the marabouts or holy men, the cult of a personage who is not human but a genie is inscribed. It is the marabout Sidi Shamharush, located in the village of the same name in the Atlas, and to which the people of the area go on pilgrimage to earn the baraka or divine blessing through the intercession of the saint. The cult is similar to that of other marabouts, except that in this case it does not revolve around a tomb, since Sidi Shamharush is not dead: he lives by day in the form of a black dog and at night takes on a human appearance. Another example is in India, where, according to local Islamic tradition, the ruins of the Feroz Shah Kotla fort in New Delhi are home to dozens of genies or jinns, who fulfill the wishes of those who pray to them and, above all, of those who write their requests to them in detailed letters. Every Thursday, hundreds of people flood the place with rose petals, incense, flower garlands, candles and so on.

In their most benign forms of behavior, they are often pranksters and tricksters. The Nephilim Looked Like Clowns (conspiracy-r-us)



Ezo (蝦夷? also spelled Yezo or Yeso) is a Japanese name that historically referred to the territory north of the Japanese island of Honshu. This region encompassed the northern island of Hokkaido, which changed its name from Ezo to Hokkaido in 1869; sometimes the island of Sakhalin4 and the Kuril Islands were also considered parts of it.
The Ainu tattoo of mouth as a clown, the region called Ezo (Hokkaido) could not help but remind Eso the Clown in the movie and apart behaves just like the evil spirits of the Ainu culture.
Although the spirits do not have a physical body, disembodied deities are not the only ones known to the Ainu. Some are corporeal, this is the case of the best known spirits, the Kropokgurus (who appear in the anime Shaman King, and an allusion to them in the anime Honey and Clover). They are said to be born from fire (Mother Earth) and are protected by trees such as alder and elm (as trees such as willow are considered evil), as they live inside them or under their leaves. It was believed that the kropokgurus had arrived on earth before the Ainu, and this is why women decided to start tattooing their faces with patterns like the ones the kropokgurus were supposed to dye their clothes.


They can be invisible or change form at will, impersonating animals or presenting themselves in the guise of a beautiful woman to visit men at night, make love to them and steal their energy, as if they were succubi. They can also be dominated through an object (such as Aladdin's marvelous lamp) and thus become slaves of whoever possesses that object.

Solomon, a great connoisseur of magic and the spiritual world, summoned and locked up no less than 72 demons of high rank, of the 72 demons that Solomon is said to have summoned he locked up in vases. These vases are probably the inspiration for the lamps.
​


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## Quiahuitl (May 4, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> Since the post talks about parallels between cultures, I have a few things to show.
> Among scholars of ancient Indian texts, there is a notion that in present day Mexican territory there was a kingdom called Makshika, mentioned in the Mahabaratha, a Sanskrit word which they claim is the origin of the word "Mexica", (pronounced in Nahuatl "Meshica". Curiously "Meksika" is the word for Mexico in the Turkish language today).



Very interesting.  I think that Sanskrit and Nahuatl are approximately the same age, around 5000 years old.  So Mexico has been called Mexico for a very long time.

All Nahuatl words are made up of other Nahuatl words.

Mexico is made of Meztli - Xictli - co

Meztli - the Moon
Xictli - umbilical
Co  - place     I think this is the passive voice of the verb to be, active voice Ca

The -tli suffix denotes a noun, so if you remove thsoe you get

Mez - Xic - Co  The place of the umbilical of the Moon. 

Mexica are people who come from Mexico.  Mexica pronounced like Meksheeka, or Mesheeka, as you say.


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## HELLBOY (May 4, 2022)

Quiahuitl said:


> Very interesting.  I think that Sanskrit and Nahuatl are approximately the same age, around 5000 years old.  So Mexico has been called Mexico for a very long time.
> 
> All Nahuatl words are made up of other Nahuatl words.
> 
> ...


There are several elements shared between Coatlicue and the Virgin of Guadalupe; the main one is their role as mothers of the main god of their respective cults.
Coatlicue, the lady with the skirt of serpents, is the earth mother, representing both fertility (birth, life) and death.

While her womb gave birth to thousands of gods, the earth is also an insatiable devourer.  According to Mexica belief, life requires sacrifices in order to regenerate itself, so the cult of the mother required all kinds of sacrifices both in buried tributes and in blood.

The hill of Tepeyac, near Mexico City, was used as the place to erect a temple in honor of Toci-Tonantzin or "Our revered little mother" an invocation of Coatlicue, also known as Teteo inan (the mother of the gods).
According to the Spanish chronicler Bernardino de Sahagún:

There is a small hill that they call Tepeacac and that the Spaniards call Tepequilla, and now it is called Our Lady of Guadalupe. In this place they had a temple dedicated to the mother of the gods, which they call Tonantzin, which means our mother. There they made many sacrifices in honor of this goddess, and they came to her from very distant lands, from more than twenty leagues from all the regions of Mexico, and they brought many offerings: men and women and young men and women came to these feasts. There was a large gathering of people on these days and everyone said 'let's go to the feast of Tonantzin'; and now that the church of Our Lady of Guadalupe is built there, they also call it Tonantzin, taking occasion from the preachers who also call it Tonantzin. (...) and they come now to visit this Tonantzin from far away, as far away as before, which devotion is also suspicious, because everywhere there are many churches of Our Lady, and they do not go to them, and they come from distant lands to this Tonantzin as formerly."

To this day there is debate among historians as to whether the Spanish conquistadors decided to use the cult of Tonantzin as a basis for developing the cult of the Virgin of Guadalupe. The mixing of beliefs had already begun anyway, the indigenous people coined the name Guadalupe-Tonantzin, since they considered it the same identity.




















COATLICUE, TONANZIN, KALI, GUADALUPE, ISIS, SEMIRAMIS

​Tezcatlipoca and Shiva, a brief relationship between an Aztec and a Hindu god.

Konrad Theodor Preuss at the beginning of the 20th century had compared religious songs of the Coras with others of the Rig Veda, and later Paul Kirchhoff conducted research on the subject and, interested in the finding of certain religious parallels between both cultural areas, speculated on the possibility of transpacific contacts that would be noted in these cultural creations.
In the Hindu religion there is a tripartite system with a creator god, primordial cause of all that exists, Brahma; a sustainer or preserver of the universe, Vishnu; and a third one, counterpart of the previous one, which comprises a principle of inertia and destruction, personified in Shiva. However, in Hindu religious literature it is the case that either Shiva or Vishnu can take the role of the creator god within the trimurti, the Hindu trinity, depending on the orientation. 

Moving on to the case of the Nahua cosmogonic myth, we have Ometeotl as the main creator in which there is already implicitly a masculine part, Ometecuhtli, and a feminine part, Omecihuatl.
These two deities are the progenitors of four other gods through whom they complete their work of creation, for it is the latter who create the world, the Sun, the first human couple, and give rise to the course of time. These are the red Tezcatlipoca, also called Camaxtle; the black Tezcatlipoca, Quetzalcoatl and Huitzilopchtli, according to the History of the Mexicans for their paintings.
Thus, as a first difference between the Hindu system and the Nahua or Aztec religion, we have a trinitarian conception of creation, on the one hand, and dualistic on the other, since the presence of the four gods sons of the Aztec primordial couple can be seen as a splitting of the first dual principle.
However, it is necessary to emphasize that in both systems, as a result of the two schemes of creation, two main deities result that acquire a predominant role as divine actors in subsequent mythical stories and as objects of an important cult, in each case. In the Nahua conception it is Quetzalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca who preside over the myth of the cosmogonic eras, as well as other stories, and come to form themselves a dual opposition scheme with implications even in social and political organization. 
In the case of Hinduism, it is Vishnu and Shiva who represent the two main currents of the Hindu cult, each with numerous derivations. It can be said that the main creators, both Brahma and Ometeotl, after creating their work, leave aside their preponderance that, in the myths, as well as in the cult, falls with greater force on all the other gods. We can now go on to review the main characteristics of our two deities, such as some of their attributes or the stories that describe their character.

Shiva, meaning "the radiant one", or "the blissful one" is also recognized as Girisha, "the lord of the hills", Mritunjaya, "the one who overcomes death" or Bhutesvara, "lord of the goblins"; he is also Yogesvara, "the lord of the yogis". His wife is Parvati, goddess of the mountains, although sometimes she is called by other names, such as Uma, or is conceived as the consort of other goddesses, such as Durga or Kali. In his representations Shiva usually appears naked, or dressed in a feline or antelope skin, and often seated in the lotus posture. He wears his hair entangled in braids and a waning moon on his head, as well as a snake hanging from his shoulder or encircling his neck, or a garland of skulls. He is covered with ashes from the crematorium, "the ashes of asceticism". He usually carries a trident and a drum, as he is also Nataraja, lord of music and dance. Sometimes a scorpion or other poisonous animal is represented at his side. His vehicle is the bull Nandi which represents the concept of Dharma. His favorite abode was on Mount Kailasa in the Himalayas, where he was said to wander around living in the open and practicing great austerities, although he is sometimes depicted as also dwelling in the city. It is said that he used to quarrel with his consort, Parvati, who accused him of having affairs with disreputable women and of being a smoker of herbs. His main symbol is the linga. 
He is described as "the destroyer", because as god of the dance he destroys the world after each cosmic cycle by means of his tandava dance, besides appearing as the destroyer of three fantastic cities built by the asuras. He travels accompanied by ghosts and goblins. Other of his nicknames are Mahakala, "great time", Bhairava, "the frightful", or Hara, "the raptor".

In many stories Shiva appears as an angry and punishing god; for example, in a legend it is described how Brahma created Saraswati and then took her as his consort, but as she was his creation, she could also be considered his daughter, so the union of both was seen by Shiva as an incestuous act, so he decided to cut off one of Brahma's heads. After this Shiva had to become a vagabond beggar to try to atone for the sin of having beheaded his creator. In another story Shiva cuts off the head of his son Ganesha, because he, at the request of Parvati, guarded the door of the chamber where she bathed, and by preventing the passage of his father provoked her anger and was beheaded by him, who then repentantly placed an elephant's head.
In another story Shiva fulminated with the internal fire of his third eye to Kamadeva, god of love, because he interrupted his meditation by inspiring a passionate desire for Parvati.

In another story Shiva drank all the poison that appeared at the moment when the gods churned the primordial sea, because of this his neck acquired a blue coloration, so it is called Nilkanta, "blue neck". A very venerated invocation of Shiva is known as Panchanana, "five faces", form under which he is considered a doctor and prayers are dedicated to him to heal from diseases.
Shiva appears in some legends as a god who acts independently and sometimes confronts all the other gods; one account narrates how this god, furious at not having been invited to the great sacrifice of the gods, burst into this ceremony and put to flight the offering itself, which in the form of a deer was pursued by the god. In this pursuit a drop of sweat fell from the forehead of the god, from which arose a being called Jvara, "the fever", which from that moment wanders the earth. Shiva had been reviled by one of the rishis assembled in the assembly prior to this sacrifice, who spoke saying:
"let those who practice the rites of Bhava (another appellation of Shiva) be heretics and opposed to the true scriptures, and who, lost in their purity, confused and ignorant, with matted hair and adorning themselves with ashes and bones, endure the initiation of Shiva in which intoxicating liquors constitute divinity."

So far a brief summary of the most outstanding characteristics of this god.
Tezcatlipoca, the god of the Smoking Mirror, as one of the four sons of the primordial couple, is one of the most important creator gods; Sahagún calls him "principal god", Torquemada also considers him "the most principal of all the gods" and calls him "anima of the world", there are several names and adjectives that are given to him, let us now review some of them.
One of his most common names is titlacahuan, which means "we are his slaves"; under his appellative of Yohualli Ehecatl, "night wind", his characteristic of being "invisible and impalpable" is expressed, an appellative he shares with Ometeotl, the dual creator. It is said that Tezcatlipoca was everywhere, that he knew the thoughts of the people, besides being the one who grants or takes away prosperity or poverty at his whim, without man being able to intervene in his will, since he is also Moyocoyani, "the one who invents himself", an attribute that means: "who is all powerful, or who does all things, without anyone going to his hand".
 Under the name of Necoc Yaotl, "the enemy of both parties," he is characterized as "the sower of discord," and it is said that, when he was on earth, he moved wars and enmities.
Another attribute is that of Moquequeloa, "the one who mocks". He is also called Nezahualpilli, "prince of fasting". Under the title of Telpochtli, "the young", he presided over the Telpochcalli, "the house of the young", he was represented by means of a young slave of unblemished appearance, who for a year was celebrated as an incarnation of the deity to be sacrificed at the end of this period during the feast of Toxcatl. However, Torquemada gives as an interpretation of this title that he represented: "one of the attributes of god... implying the immutability and permanence of god, and that his life is not measured with time, but time itself runs with the permanence and eternity of god".

Some of the stories in which this god appears place him as a detonator of events that entail chaos and destruction and that are linked to the end of an era. He is the inciter of sin in Tamanochan, when by seducing Xochiquetzal he provokes the rupture of the sacred tree that begins to bleed, which leads to the expulsion of the gods to the surface of the earth. In the story of the end of Tollan, it appears again taking multiple forms as a series of characters who are always agents of great commotion. As Tlacahuepan he appears in the form of an illusionist who makes a young boy dance in his hand, then, dying after being stoned by a crowd of Toltecs, he again causes the death of many of them with his stinking corpse being dragged away.
He visits Quetzalcoatl in his old age to "give him his body" and manages to get him drunk and then make him flee from Tollan. As Tohueyo presents himself as a naked huasteco who goes around selling chili peppers, and when he is observed by the daughter of king Huemac, he makes her sick with desire, and then he has to heal her and marry her, which causes the anger of all the Toltec dignitaries.
After the visits of the god of the Smoking Mirror to Tollan, the Toltec city will be abandoned and ruin will befall the whole region. In another story it is said that Tezcatlipoca appeared as an inhabitant of Chalco who drunkenly came out to the wizards of Moctezuma who were going to see Cortés, to show them in a vision the coming destruction and burning of the Mexica city.

Two of the most important invocations of the Lord of the Smoking Mirror are Huehuecoyotl and Tepeyollohtli, the former, the "old coyote", is the old god of dance and music, while Tepeyollohtli, which translates as "heart of the mountain", is usually represented in the form of a jaguar and symbolizes the strength of the earth found particularly in the mountains and ravines. 
We will now point out what some of these common features may be and briefly comment on them.
In the cosmogonic account, the role of both gods as destructive agents in a relationship with the end of time periods and with the cosmogonic eras by extension stands out first of all. Shiva is conceived as the destroyer in the Hindu scheme of creation of the universe, a tripartite system, conceived as a creation that is sustained in its existence by Vishnu and destroyed at the end of each cosmic cycle by the Tandava dance of Shiva as Nataraja, god of the dance. Tezcatlipoca, on the other hand, is the main agent of destruction of Tollan; this god also forms one of the axes of the myth of the eras, in which he disputes with his brother Quetzalcoatl the creation and destruction of the suns that preside over each era. Both gods have a destructive character in relation to an idea of cyclical time; a certain punitive character can also be seen; in the case of Shiva this is shown with a more marked moral charge that is observed, for example, when he cuts off the head of Brahma to punish his incestuous act. On the other hand, in the case of the Smoking Mirror, his role in some stories is defined more as a culprit than as a punisher, as is evident in the case of the myth of Tamoanchan. In Shiva we find a guilty aspect, but in his case it appears as a moral burden on himself, as he usually regrets his outrageous acts and then seeks to atone for them. On the other hand, Tezcatlipoca, as a punishing god, is prayed to punish and eliminate the rulers when they do not know how to serve their people. 

In both cases the destructive aspect is presented in relation to the concept of time; both gods are in their respective contexts representatives of the time that concludes. As Mahakala, Shiva, "the great time", is also "the great death", the waning moon on his head is undoubtedly a unit of measurement of time and symbol of the origin of the calendar. Tezcatlipoca also presents evident relations with the concept of time. 
The Tezcatlipoca-Moon relationship has been studied by Michel Graulich, who emphasizes above all its aspect of nocturnal deity in opposition to Quetzalcoatl-Sun.
The primary difference with Shiva would be that in the case of the latter it is the entire universe that comes to an end by means of his dance; in the case of Tezcatlipoca it is about eras that are measured on a mythical-historical time scale or dimension.


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## PantaOz (Sep 19, 2022)

The Australian Aborigines in their Dreamtime stories are telling about their creator... The Rainbow Serpent... and after all these years, I remembered the stories my grandma and grandpa were telling me (there was no TV at their place in the 1960's) about creation... and somehow there is a parallel! They were Christians but they loved to read and explore... so they had these books called The Bible Stories, issued by some Christian group where all the events from the creation were explained in details (I still have the original books stored in boxes under my friend's house in Canberra).

So, I remember clearly that we were told that the FIRST Son of God was called The Light Bearer... He was given the task of creating the Earth... so he did it! It had beautiful green places, with dinosaurs and all the giant creatures... lots of water... He had a power to move LIKE A SERPENT and create mountains, valleys and rivers and all the huge "beautiful" things... but, when he finished his work God was not pleased... something was missing... so, to cut the story short, we had a disappointed God and The Light Bearer who failed in his task and became bitter when God gave the task to the second son, The Word Bearer, after God made everything dark and void for the new task to be fulfilled!

(My grandparents were only reading the New Testament, that was their Bible! So, they believed that God was the creator not knowing that Eloah was the THE ONE, and Elohim were the others bellow... both sons were above the other angels, but they were both Elohim! I found that later when I was 17 years old spending 8 hours and comparing everything written using the Strong's Concordance and the FULL Bible. But, I was constantly reminded by my grandmother that God and the Sons and the Angels - all Elohim - were together in Oneness, Everything was still united as One! )

This is when The Light Bearer became The Serpent! Parallel? Well, in China I had an opportunity to hear about a Dragon as a creator! OK, dragons are with wings, with legs... no parallel there... but wait: there is more! Many of the early Mesopotamian cultures and surrounding civilizations had very rich oral histories that tell of mighty storm gods saving the people from evil *giant serpents*. And those ones had many terrifying features, ranging from fluorescent skin to the ability to breathe fire and fly. So, we should not forget that these myths were the foundation of the today's perspective on dragons! Even Chinese would sometimes say that a dragon could be any form of fearsome-natured serpent. The word ‘drakon’ that the English word ‘dragon’ was derived from,  means ‘large serpent’ or ‘sea serpent.’ In the West, most dragons are described as being evil in nature while in China, as evidenced by their mythology, dragons are also shown as benevolent and knowledgeable creatures!



And that is what The Light Bearer was... if we take the verses from the Bible that described him (of course we would have to accept that The Light Bearer and Lucifer were the same creature) , we will find the following:

“Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou was created” [Ezekiel 28:15].

This being was so alluring and so beautiful until he, angry at the decision of his Father, was able to take out of the hand of God one-third of all of the multitude of that angelic host [Revelation 12:4]. After that he just kept the names Serpent, Devil and Satan...

So, according to this story or a myth or something I was listening many times as a kid with my sister and two cousins, the first creator could be The Serpent! My last book was written in Mexico, and it was about Monte Alban and Zapotec culture, and I could witness serpents there as well... all around the area!



The feathered serpent was named differently throughout Mesoamerica. In Nahuatl-speaking Central Mexico, the feathered serpent was known as Quetzalcoatl (from quetzalli, “quetzal feather” and coatl, “snake”) then you move to the Mayan-speaking regions, the feathered serpent was known under the name of Kukulcan (in Yucatec Mayan) and Gucumatz (in Quiche Mayan). The significance this religious figure derives from the purpose of its creation.

That is for now... I hope you found some parallels in those stories...


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## Quiahuitl (Sep 19, 2022)

The Light-Bearer being the first creation of God and presiding over the world is common to many mythological systems.  In the Toltec (Nahua) system this is represented by Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl, meaning literally 'Two man' and 'Two woman.'  I like to call them Mr and Mrs Two.  They represent duality and are the first things to emerge from the indivisible primordial energy which is called Centeotl literally meaning 'One energy.'  Mr and Mrs Two represent the perfect balance of masculine and feminine energies.  They can appear in your dreams as a perfectly balanced couple.  For example you might have a pair of friends who have been married for ever and just seem perfect together.  If you dream about them, that is your subconscious representation of Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl.  This is said to be an important benchmark on the journey of mastering your own cave.

Quetzalcoatl is closer to the rainbow serpent than you think.  The Quetzal is a bird that has iridescent plumage, so its feathers shine like a rainbow when it flies.  'Coatl,' serpent represents knowledge and 'Quetzal' represents flight, beauty etc.  The closest we have to this concept in our culture is when we say things like 'The party really took off'  'She turned 21, found her wings and her career really took off'  'I was really flying the other day' etc.

Quetzalcoatl represents the ability of living things to resonate in harmony together and create energy.  When we let go of our egos and just 'Get into it' we start buzzing inside.  That's how we express Quetzalcoatl.


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## PantaOz (Sep 19, 2022)

Quiahuitl said:


> The Light-Bearer being the first creation of God and presiding over the world is common to many mythological systems.  In the Toltec (Nahua) system this is represented by Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl, meaning literally 'Two man' and 'Two woman.'  I like to call them Mr and Mrs Two.  They represent duality and are the first things to emerge from the indivisible primordial energy which is called Centeotl literally meaning 'One energy.'  Mr and Mrs Two represent the perfect balance of masculine and feminine energies.  They can appear in your dreams as a perfectly balanced couple.  For example you might have a pair of friends who have been married for ever and just seem perfect together.  If you dream about them, that is your subconscious representation of Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl.  This is said to be an important benchmark on the journey of mastering your own cave.
> 
> Quetzalcoatl is closer to the rainbow serpent than you think.  The Quetzal is a bird that has iridescent plumage, so its feathers shine like a rainbow when it flies.  'Coatl,' serpent represents knowledge and 'Quetzal' represents flight, beauty etc.  The closest we have to this concept in our culture is when we say things like 'The party really took off'  'She turned 21, found her wings and her career really took off'  'I was really flying the other day' etc.
> 
> Quetzalcoatl represents the ability of living things to resonate in harmony together and create energy.  When we let go of our egos and just 'Get into it' we start buzzing inside.  That's how we express Quetzalcoatl.



We agree that these two are very close... I spent couple of years in Mexico, especially Oaxaca region and I understand what you are saying... here is the whole Dreamtime story (one of the many) about the Rainbow Serpent...



> At the beginning of the Dreamtime, the earth was flat and dry and empty. There were no trees, no rivers, no animals and no grass. It was a dry and flat land.
> 
> One day, Goorialla, the rainbow serpent woke from his sleep and set off to find his tribe. He crossed Australia from east to west and north to south, stopping to listen for his people. He crossed every part of the dry, flat Australia but found nothing. After searching for a long time, he grew tired and lay down to sleep.
> 
> ...


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## Quiahuitl (Sep 19, 2022)

The light, or duality, comes higher than the four archangels.  The Toltec heavens are 

Highest - Centeotl  one energy
Next highest - Ometeotl the twin energies represented Mr and Mrs Two or Lucifer in our system
Next highest - the four archangels Tezcatlipoca (North), Xipe-Totec (West), Huitzilopochtli (South) and Quetzalcoatl (East)

Note - These four essences are called 'The directions' in the Toltec tradition. I'm using the word 'Archangel' instead.  

I was discussing this with Feralimal in another thread here
Alternative Mega Theories

And came up with the observation that all the archangels have duality included in them, because they are all below Mr and Mrs Two. 

Tezcatlipoca is the past and the future - Time.
Xipe-Totec is creation and destruction = Reincarnation
Huitzilopochtli is willpower but also the ability to hurt oneself - Karma.

Quetzalcoatl is the only one that does not appear to embody duality.  So there's a parallel with the Australian story about the rainbow serpent swallowing the twins.


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## PantaOz (Sep 20, 2022)

The Flood stories are all around the world! Unknown to most people, the Australian Aborigines have many traditions surprisingly similar to parts of the book of Genesis, especially those regarding Creation and Noah’s Flood.

Depending on your knowledge, you would be familiar with a story or many stories about the Flood which include the saving of only a few people and animals! These can be found in many cultures worldwide and for some of the believers in the events from the Bible, provide fascinating circumstantial evidence that  all of our ancestors experienced this event... so they probably all came from Noah? Aborigines, Jews, and all modern races?  Maybe is better to check again The Genesis account, the most detailed and systematic of them all.

To refresh our memory, let me introduce a brief summary as found in Genesis 6–9.

Men are exceedingly evil and violent.
God is pleased with Noah only!
God sends a warning to Noah that a flood would be sent as judgement to destroy the terrible .
Noah receives instructions from God to build a boat for his family and for the animals - the animals would be directed by God.
The whole earth (mountains included) was covered by the waters coming from above and bellow.
All animals and men not on the boat perished.
The raven was the first bird sent by to check if there is any dry land, followed by a dove.
The dove returns with an olive leaf in its beak , so Noah knows there is a dry land to disembark the ark. 
Rainbow was sent by God as a sign that there will be no other destruction of the earth by a flood.
All living men and animals came out of those who were on the ark




Check out the story told by _Albert Barangga... The Flood _(Australian Aboriginal elders just recently started recording their stories... traditionally they were passed orally, by initiated story tellers)_, there re the following parallels: _The Flood was a judgement upon evil; It was sent to destroy all men; The Flood covered the mountains; All the land was covered; Only a few were spared; All other men were drowned.



> *In ancient times the sea made the watermarks on the mountains and ranges.* For example Mt. House, Mt. Waterloo, Mt. Hann all have these watermarks, they are right on top. *The reason for this flood was men killed the old woman’s third son, the one she loved.
> 
> This old lady went down and speared the ‘eye’ of the sea. It is said that she was staying on Nowulu Island. The son was dear to her. They told her “They have killed him; already they have taken his life”, they told her. “Ah”, she said. She wept once and did not weep again. “I’ll finish them” she said.* She went over to a place called Garajin and there she speared and poked the small ‘hole’ in the sea. The sea went back and back exceedingly, it sucked it right out. The place was left hard and dry and the fish were flapping about on the hard (bottom) place for there was no water. *At that time the mountains were made.
> 
> We say, the present tides don’t rise like this. For this sea travelled across like a range to them. The mountains sank beneath it. Then she finished them. They were drowned.* While still there was no water, that is at the time when it disappeared, she picked up turtle and fish and took them up to the top of the hill at Nowulu The place is called Nowulu, it’s an island, that the place she climbed up to. Here she remained and dug for water right on the top. *Then that one – the sea – was travelling and all the mainland was underneath it. That was the time it went back. That time it finished them; it drowned all those men. Only those who climbed right on top, over there, only those may be living. Then they returned this way. that was the sea that drowned all the men of that generation on the earth.* Then (that time) they made themselves into turtle and fish and now those of that generation are living creatures in the sea. They were people first but they made themselves sea-creatures. *The sea drowned them all.*



A Western Desert Tradition story has different details but The Flood is still there! It was contributed by W.H. Douglas... KURANGARA...





In this story the parallels are the following: A Great Flood; The heavens opened; Some were saved on boats; Their animals too; The boats went to the mountains.



> *Long ago, in the Creation country across the sea to the west,* some people saw these red-legged birds strutting along with their heads moving up and down. Whenever the people approached them they moved forward always keeping the same distance between themselves and their followers.
> https://creation.com/australian-aboriginal-flood-stories
> There were millions of these birds, and they were much taller than they are today. The men followed them to discover where they were all going. The birds walked east and eventually led the men to the coast of Australia. They stepped out of the sea where Fremantle is today, then turned north and walked up the coast. The men continued to follow them. When they reached the point just below where Port Hedland is now situated *the great flood came.*
> https://creation.com/australian-aboriginal-flood-stories
> ...



I discovered that in "Some Additional Myths of the Hoh and Quileute Indians" by Albert B. Reagan, there was and interesting Flood story from the Native Americans, too. The Story of The Flood's parallels could be drawn by yourself.



> In the beginning Kwattee created the animals of the earth. Then by the union of some of these animals with a star which fell from heaven, came the first human beings. And from these sprang the various races of men.
> 
> Years came and went and all was good. Then Chief Thunderbird attempted to destroy all the good whales of the ocean. Kwattee then interfered, and a terrible drawn battle was fought between him and Thunderbird.
> 
> ...


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## Udjat (Sep 21, 2022)

I think that this thread is very interesting and I think that all of you here have done a great job with all the information.

I just wanted to put out there a great book by Graham Hancock that I read quite a few years ago, it is called "Super Natural Meetings with the Ancient Teachers of Mankind".  In this book he actually is allowed to hang with an ancient tribe in the Amazon jungle and trip out with the shaman.  His experiences throughout this book are very interesting, and a serpent plays a role in the visions that the shaman have and now Hancock.  

When I had taken Mythology in college I came across a lot of different people's around the world, their version of the "creation" story.  Yes many are similar, and the flood story as well.  Everyone keeps talking about this "one" flood that took out a lot of people, seemingly around the world at the same time, but I believe that this "flood" has happened more than once.  I think there has been many "Floods" that have devastated not only the whole planet at once, but at times was great enough to cover only certain places around the world.  Also if you read these creation stories and "flood" myths you can pick up many metaphors that are in these stories that actually refer to comets, asteroids, and other things in the sky coming to earth and even earth sized catastrophes where ancient tribes hide and run for cover in caverns deep below the earth.  Scientific language as what we know today was not the same as it was long ago so sometimes it is hard for us to decipher the true meaning of the ancient stories and writing.  Most of these stories and ancient generations have eluded us in their true meanings for so long, it's nice to see all the wonderful work efforts by so many to unravel the truths of the past. 

It is not a coincidence that these stories of creation around the world are very similar, because there are no coincidences!!!


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