# Ireland as an example of old-world governance



## dreamtime (Nov 16, 2020)

Looks like the Irish resisted the empire until the 17th (or even 18th) Century, and the potato famine was created to destroy the remains of the old decentralized system of the tuath under British rule.

I propose the way the old world worked was like this:

- Single, united civilization on earth that was governed locally but connected globally. This united civilization later split apart after a cataclysmic event or war (maybe around 1300 AD)
- Afterwards, the local governance did not change, but the connection between the different countries wasn't as good as before, we see development of individual languages, etc.
- no central authority, kings had spiritual functions
- caste system, but fluid
- people were judged by accomplishment and ability
- no money, no banks, no parasitism
- this system, decentralized but united in spirit, could have been called the commonwealth of earth
- The parasitic PTB stole the name _commonwealth_ but perverted everything in order to create a central authority that controls people and enslaves.
- It took a long time to overthrow the old kingdoms because due to their decentralized governance and focus on autonomy and freedom they couldn't simply kill their leaders, they had to slowly destroy the spirit of the entire people

What remains known about the Irish system implies that life in the pre-colonial times was glorious, and doing good things and working hard mattered, for people reaped the fruits of their own labor, and people knew how to resolve conflicts without resorting to a central authority. This implies a completely different approach towards life, and means that people were in touch with themselves, and the people around them. When there is no central arbitrary authority, relationships and life as a whole become meaningful.

The connections between people living together within a small community were like a very dense web, their lifes interwoven in a single destiny, and everyone dependent on everyone else, the biggest fear was being ostracised from the community, for that usually meant total loss of one's reputation and eventually suffering or death.



> Irish law is almost wholly the produet of a professional class of jurists called brithim or brehons. Originally the Druids and later the filid or poets were the keepers of the law, but by historic times jurisprudence was the professional specialization of the brehons who often were members of hereditary brehonic families and enjoyed a social and legal status just below that of the kings. The brehons survived among the native lrish until the very end of a free Irish society in the early 17th century. They were particularly marked for persecution, along with the poets and historians, by the English authorities. The statutes of Kilkenny (1366) specifically forbade the English from resorting to the brehon's law, but they were still being mentioned in English documents of the early 17th ceniury.l61 The absence from the function of law-making of the Irish kings may seem startling. But Irish kings were not legisiators nor were they normally involved in the adjudication of disputes unless requested to do so by the litigants. A king was not a sovereign; he himself could be sued and a special brehon was assigned to hear cases to which the king was a party. He was subject to the law as any other freeman. The Irish polity, the tuath, was, one distinguished modem scholar put it, "the state in swaddling clothes". It existed only in "embryo". "There was no legislature, no bailiffs or police, no public enforcement of justice . . . there was no trace of Stateadministered justice". Certain mythological kings like Cormac mac Airt were reputed to be Iawgivms and judges, but turn out to be euhemerized Celtic deities. When the kings appear in the enforcement of justice, they do so through the system of suretyship which was utilized to guarantee the enforcement of contracts and the decisions of the brehon's courts. Or they appear as representatives of the assembly of freemen to contract on their behalf with other fuafha or churchmen. Irish law is essentially brehon's law-and the absence of the State in its creation and development is one of the chief reasons for its importance as an object of our scrutiny.





> *Conclusion and Summary*
> 
> While a comprehensive survey of the Irish law of property and property rights cannot yet be written, we can already see that the idea of private ownership permeates those aspects of the law which have been subjected to recent study. The Irish frankly and openly used assessments of property as the criterion for determining a man's social and legal status, the extent of his capacity to act as a surety or compurgator, and to fix the amounts of compensation due hi as a victim of crime or any kind of injury. Ownership of land determined a man's status as free or unfree and his right to participate in the public assembly. The needs of the Church modified but did not alter the basic character of native Irish institutions and law. While it secured for itself almost total freedom from lay ownership and secular obligations, it was never able to fully destroy the essentially secular character of Irish law as exemplified in the laws on marriage and divorce. The legal capacity of women showed exceptional development and gave women property rights in the 8th century that were centuries ahead of those enjoyed by English women. The fact that lrish law was the creation of private individuals who were professional, even hereditary, jurists, gave to the law both a conservative yet flexible and equitable character. Their power rested upon the free consent of the community in choosing them as arbitrators in disputes; and this made equity and justice more likely than in royal courts where the interests of the State and its rulers are paramount. The invasion and conquest of Ireland, the work of over 400 years before it was completed, was eventually fatal to the Irish system of law snd the culture and civilization it expressed. The English State was incompatible with the Irish tuoth; the English common law was totally incompatible with the Irish law. Ireland from the 12th century was a single land in which two nations and two laws and two cultures engaged in a constant struggle for survival. The end came in the early 17th century with the flight bf the last Irish kings from Ulster and the new plantation of that region by Protestant Scots sent by James I-that most absolute of English Kings. As for the native Irish and their ancient culture, the English official Sir John Davies thought he said it all: "For if we consider the Nature of the Irish Customes, we shall finde that the people that doeth use them, must of necessitie bee Rebelles to all good Government, destroy the commonwealth wherein they live. and bring Barbarisme and desolation upon the richest and most fruitful land of the world.'



https://mises.org/library/property-rights-celtic-irish-law-0


> In fact, the most glaring cause of the famine was not a plant disease, but England's long-running political hegemony over Ireland. The English conquered Ireland, several times, and took ownership of vast agricultural territory. Large chunks of land were given to Englishmen.
> 
> These landowners in turn hired farmers to manage their holdings. The managers then rented small plots to the local population in return for labor and cash crops. Competition for land resulted in high rents and smaller plots, thereby squeezing the Irish to subsistence and providing a large financial drain on the economy.
> 
> ...



https://mises.org/library/what-caused-irish-potato-famine-0


> Each _túath_ was a self contained unit, with its own executive, assembly, courts system and defence force. _Túatha_ were grouped together into confederations for mutual defence. There was a hierarchy of _túatha_ statuses, depending on geographical position and connection to the ruling dynasties of the region.[3] The organisation of _túatha_ is covered to a great extent within the Brehon laws, Irish laws written down in the 7th century, also known as the _Fénechas_.[4]
> 
> The old Irish political system was altered during and after the Elizabethan conquest, being gradually replaced by a system of baronies and counties under the new colonial system. Due to a loss of knowledge, there has been some confusion regarding old territorial units in Ireland, mainly between _trícha céta_ and _túatha_, which in some cases seem to be overlapping units, and in others, different measurements altogether.[5] The _trícha céta_ were primarily for reckoning military units; specifically, the number of fighting forces a particular population could rally.[2] Some scholars equate the _túath_ with the modern parish, whereas others equate it with the barony. This partly depends on how the territory was first incorporated into the county system. In cases where surrender and regrant was the method, the match between the old _túath_ and the modern barony is reasonably equivalent. Whereas in cases like Ulster, which involved large scale colonisation and confiscation of land, the shape of the original divisions is not always clear or recoverable.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Túath


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## solarbard (Nov 16, 2020)

Ireland was a remarkably civilized society.


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## codis (Nov 17, 2020)

I suppose it could not have been like that.
The catholic church claims to have a hold on Ireland for 1500 years (St. Patrick).


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## dreamtime (Nov 17, 2020)

codis said:


> I suppose it could not have been like that.
> The catholic church claims to have a hold on Ireland for 1500 years (St. Patrick).



well they claim a lot.


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## torgo (Nov 17, 2020)

The East side of North America used to be known as Great Ireland a long time ago.  I found out about this from a comment in a thread at SH but I can't find it anywhere. It had to do with the backgrounds of the Native Americans, I believe. Luckily, I saved the screenshots and sources and have added some links I've found.



Sources:
1838 America Discovered in the Tenth Century
1875 Lives of the Irish Saints
1884 Magazine of Western History
1897 Iowa County democrat. [volume] (Mineral Point, Wis.) 1877-1938, November 18, 1897, Page 3, Image 3
1906 Bismarck daily tribune. [volume] (Bismarck, Dakota [N.D.]) 1881-1916, March 12, 1906, Image 3
1926 Evening star. [volume] (Washington, D.C.) 1854-1972, June 24, 1926, Page 8, Image 8
Ancient Stone Sites of New England and the Debate Over Early European Exploration

The Ruins of Great Ireland in New England

Irish colonists came to Southeastern North America four times, long before Columbus

Duhare – Irish “Indians” in South Carolina?

Proof an Irish colony in South Carolina predates Christopher Columbus

The Duhare: A Gaelic Colony in North America Nearly 500 Years Ago

Evidence of Fireworks in Ancient America?

How Choctaw Indians raised money for Irish Great Hunger relief


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## Knowncitizen (Nov 18, 2020)

solarbard said:


> Ireland was a remarkably civilized society.


And still would be if it was as racist as it was then. Being sold of to the euro didn't help much. There is a very complicated web of power involved in Irish affairs at home and world wide that goes back hundreds of years.
I think the friendliness of the Irish, Scotts and Welsh comes from this old world system. The later systems lack the closeness of the village mentality. The new village raising the child stuff is garbage. The old 80's backwardness of Ireland is lost forever.

Yeah I've smoked a bowl.


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## dreamtime (Nov 21, 2020)




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## GaelicWestIndian (Nov 23, 2020)

Lovely post. Brehon Law seems to represent an illustrious past that we are only just beginning to reawaken to. As a Descendant of the original peoples of Ireland, exiled to Jamaica by Oliver Cromwell (a story that needs to be examined) I am quite proud of this system of law that was pioneered by my ancestors and I think all of us who know this is our heritage need to push for it's implementation in our homes and amongst our families


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## JWW427 (Nov 23, 2020)

I love Ireland! My ancestors were from Ulster county.
The country is very, very energetic with earth energy, stone circle portals, and Gaia connection, which is why I think everyone wanted to conquer the place. But did they?

I found this very funny:


_Ireland is constantly said to be one of the best places on Earth but this article disagrees with that assumption. Instead, here are 14 reasons why Ireland is the _*worst place on Earth.*

*1. The scenery is rubbish*
​
Valentia Isalnd, Co. Kerry.
*2. The beaches are terrible*
​
Portsalon Beach, Co. Donegal.
*3. The roads are too busy*
​
N67, Co. Galway.
*4. The coast is ugly*
​
Cliffs of Tory Island, Co. Donegal. Credit to Owen clarke photography.
*5. There are no hidden gems*
​
Bloody Bridge, Co. Down.
*6. The lakes are rubbish*
​
Glendalough, CO. Wicklow. Credit: Joe McConkey.
*7. There are no scenic mountains*
​Benbulben, Co. Sligo.
*8. The old castles make the surroundings look worse than they already are*
​Rock of Cashel, Co. Tipperary.
*9. Dublin is an ugly place*

*

Dublin. Credit: www.centralhoteldublin.com.*​


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## Citezenship (Nov 24, 2020)

Dublin is such beautiful city and to me part of that old world but i cant find a star fort there or on any old maps, there is one just on the outskirts but think it is a recent one, although a view of the city from above it looks like set of lungs with a windpipe to my eyes at least.
To keep inline with the op i think Ireland must have been one of the last strongholds of our old world as it has so many medieval looking places and plenty of star forts and citadels, the londonderry citadel for instance is huge.


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## Blue Ice (Nov 25, 2020)

According to traditional history, it was the Irish monks who preserved the knowledge of the antique world and passed it on to the rest of the Europeans, which led to the Renaissance. But since I’m so diubtful now about the traditional version of history, I don’t know what to believe.

I also want to know more about bardic schools in Ireland. Education based on aesthetics - sounds fascinating.


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## wild heretic (Nov 30, 2020)

Since I live in Ireland, maybe I'm biased. Dublin is no great shakes. It's pretty poor by Euro standards. When I lived there around 2007, it was pretty dirty and terrible to get around, public transport-wise.

Most of Ireland looks like a giant farm and is very flat. There are exceptions of course on the west coast: Connemara, Kerry, Donegal etc. It has some nice lakes, but in all honesty, it's a much poorer version of Scotland in terms of scenery. Wexford has great beaches and the south-east has nice places to swim. 

Where I live, the rivers are ok for trout, but Irish rivers and even canals are not a patch on what they were decades ago for fishing. You can thank corruption in energy and river management for that. 

Scotland is better in just about everything in the areas of wildlife and scenery, except it can get colder than Ireland which is generally pretty mild all year round (5 to 20 degrees with some exceptions). It rains a lot in Ireland, with many frequent weather changes during the day.


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## JWW427 (Dec 16, 2020)

Going back to the OP, I wonder if the original people actually "judged" each other at all.
Perhaps it was an egalitarian ranking system based on various skills. Different but equal.
Was it based on the Prediluvian high civilization model?


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## dreamtime (Dec 22, 2020)

Here's a mainstream documentary about the genocide on the Irish:

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DK-GoVkRjw_
​

I always liked this song by Primordial for it's melancholic spirit. It is about the Irish Coffin Ships, escaping the Potato Famine:



> Coffin ships carrying emigrants, crowded and disease-ridden, with poor access to food and water, resulted in the deaths of many people as they crossed the Atlantic, and led to the 1847 North American typhus epidemic at quarantine stations in Canada. Owners of coffin ships provided as little food, water and living space as was legally possible, if they obeyed the law at all.





*The Coffin Ships*

_Our young hearts are born with grief
And we have payed the penalty of truth
A season of our stolen youth
Shall teach old hearts to break

It feels like I've been here before
Here, where the animals lay down to die
So we stand alone on a distant shore
Our Broken spirits in rags and tatters

With knot and muscle, and heart and brain
They are lost to Ireland, they are lost in vain
So you pause and you can almost hear
The sounds they echo down through the ages
The creak of the burial cart
Here in humiliation and sorrow
Not unmixed with indignation
So one is driven to exclaim
Oh god, that bread should be so dear
And human flesh so cheap.

 
https://www.irishamericanmom.com/irish-famine-burial-pits-in-skibbereen/_​


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## fabiorem (Dec 23, 2020)

Punishment in the past consisted not of imprisonment, but of banishment. The individual who commited a crime was banished from his community, and had to fend off for himself. 
Imprisonment implies the local authorities have to pay for food and shelter for the criminal, and this was only possible with centralized governments. As the State monster grows bigger over time, more and more taxes were created, and so the prisons got bigger. What we have today is a devouring leviathan, the modern State, which now wants to imprison people in their own homes, and pay for their food and shelter through welfare. The leviathan will print money until the system collapses, and then will offer a "solution" through quantum dot technology.


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## Oracle (Dec 24, 2020)

JWW427 said:


> I love Ireland! My ancestors were from Ulster county.
> The country is very, very energetic with earth energy, stone circle portals, and Gaia connection, which is why I think everyone wanted to conquer the place. But did they?
> 
> I found this very funny:
> ...


Just for your information, Ulster is a province and not a county.?

	Post automatically merged: Dec 24, 2020



dreamtime said:


> Looks like the Irish resisted the empire until the 17th (or even 18th) Century, and the potato famine was created to destroy the remains of the old decentralized system of the tuath under British rule.
> 
> I propose the way the old world worked was like this:
> 
> ...


About two years ago I was reading traveler's in Ireland  journals from the 18th century.What stood out to me was the constant complaints about the bogginess of the countryside and roads (from english travellers).
It made me wonder was this because it had recently emerged from the sea or was not long after the mudflood time.
The english traveller's journals were incredibly bigotted, to the point I stopped reading them in disgust, describing the citizens as filthy and ignorant wallowing in grime and their homes hovels.
Sounds to me like both effects of the result of being conquered and a weather anomaly.
      The english newspapers described the irish as "the blacks of Europe"  (propaganda much?).
The " mythical" isle of tir na nOg was said to be visible occasionally west of Ireland in even older history,many think this was the island of Atlantis.According to legend,when Oisin spent time there, one year on the Island equaled 100 on the mainland.
Oisin and tir na nOg
Also apparently travel used to be possible via the giant's causeway to Scotland (sorry no source,I read that a long time ago).


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## liqouriceandhorses (Jan 2, 2021)

matematik said:


> The mainstream Irish historical narrative seems to be "800 years of English oppression/attempted genocide", but why did the English supposedly want to do this for 800 years? Just for the sake of it? Just because they hate Irish people for some inexplicable reason? Because they hate Catholics, despite the Church of England being to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from the Catholic Church? It can't be for natural resources because Ireland as far as I'm aware has no resources that England doesn't, very similar type of land overall.
> 
> I recall an Irish historian wrote a book a few years ago claiming that many of the claimed English massacres in Ireland are fabricated, and that people who are claimed to have been killed in these massacres turn up in censuses and other records years after the claimed events. I can't remember what the book is called, I've searched it quickly and it might have been "Cromwell Was Framed" by Tom Reilly, but I'm not 100% sure, but I think that book is along the same lines.
> 
> ...




There are many of those you speak of as well as the other traveller sub groups there.
This might be why the American Irish are so patriotic?
But I do believe the english empire expanded to the west just like they did where ever they could. The Irish were forced out of their land, probably so London / England could make money or just supply them selves. They dont like competition, look at the world war for example.


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## WorldWar1812 (Jan 3, 2021)

JWW427 said:


>



Why has Ireland so few trees?


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## matematik (Jan 3, 2021)

WorldWar1812 said:


> JWW427 said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



The "official" reason seems to be that the English deforested all their land for shipbuilding which sounds like far-fetched nonsense to me designed to appeal to nationalistic sentiment. For a start it seems highly dubious there would have ever been a need for that much wood, which must have been almost every tree in Ireland if it was covered in forest at one point. Also, would deforestation on that scale in such a short period of time have even been possible with technology of the era as we are told it was?

Another point I'd make is that tree cover in Britain is not much higher, especially in England although England is a significantly more densely populated country than Ireland so maybe that accounts for a lot of the loss here, but it seems to me that neither Ireland or Britain have a great amount of tree cover compared to much of the world.

Also, on the shipbuilding thing, Portugal has a long history as a seafaring nation, so presumably built a lot of ships and yet tree cover in Portugal is significantly higher than both Ireland and Britain, so why didn't this effect their tree cover like Britain and Ireland if shipbuilding is the reason?


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## Oracle (Jan 3, 2021)

Saw this played live by Moving Hearts in Dublin once, by the end of it the whole hall and band had tears rolling down our faces.


_View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mIILCtCtk9o_




Moving Hearts - "Irish Ways & Irish Laws"


Once upon a time there was
Irish Ways and Irish Laws
Villages of Irish blood
Waking to the morning
Waking to the morning

Then the Vikings came around (1)
Turned us up and turned us down
Started building boats and towns
They tried to change our living
tried to change our living

Cromwell and his soldiers came (2)
Started centuries of shame
But they could not make us turn (3)
We are a river flowing
We're a river flowing

Again, again the soldiers came
Burnt our houses stole our grain
Shot the farmers in their fields
Working for a living

800 years we have been down (4)
The secret of the water sound
Has kept the spirit of a man
Above the pain descending
Above the pain descending

Today the struggle carries on
I wonder will I live so long
To see the gates being opened up (5)
To a people and their freedom
A people and their freedom

Once upon a time there was
Irish Ways and Irish Laws
Villages of Irish blood
Waking to the morning
Waking to the morning


Notes from the video description:

(1)
The first documented Viking landing took place in 795. Until the
Anglo-Norman invasion in 1170 the Vikings would play an important
role in Ireland, both politically and economically. They created trade
routes, founded kingdoms, and built the first towns in Ireland,
including Dublin, Cork and Limerick.

(2)
Oliver Cromwell landed in Ireland in August 1649 at the head of a
huge army, by May 1650 he had crushed opposition in all but the West.
(By 1652 the Irish population had fallen to .7 m. In 1641 it had
been 1.5 m. By 1660 .5 m cattle were being exported annually to
England.)

(3)
Both Cromwell's and subsequent colonisation campaigns used the twin
techniques of "planting" English and Scotish settlers and forcing
some locals to change or "Turn" their religion to the Protestant
faith. So here he uses the ambiguity of the term "turn" to echo both
the image of the unbowed Irish peasant and a metaphor for Irish
History flowing like a un-turnable river.

(4)
Since the first English invasion in 1170

(5)
"Gates" here evokes both images of the be-sieged walled cities of the
17th century and also of the present day prison camps in the North
of Ireland which at the time the song was being written (in the late
1970's early 1980's) were the subject of much political campaigning
including Hunger Strikes by the inmates.

Edited: due to double post.


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## matematik (Jan 3, 2021)

What about Spanish security forces in the Basque country, or Russian security forces in Chechnya? You got songs about that too or do you just hate "the English"? The world is a lot more complicated than "it's the English what done it".


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## Oracle (Jan 3, 2021)

matematik said:


> What about Spanish security forces in the Basque country, you got a song about that too or do you just hate "the English"? The world is a lot more complicated than "it's the English what done it".



My goodness,where did you get the impression I hate the english?!
Half my family are english haha.
  I just shared a beautiful song on the theme of the thread.
Interested to read your thread on the Basque country if you share the link.


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## matematik (Jan 3, 2021)

Oracle said:


> matematik said:
> 
> 
> > What about Spanish security forces in the Basque country, you got a song about that too or do you just hate "the English"? The world is a lot more complicated than "it's the English what done it".
> ...



I find it irritating how there is this idea that the Irish have suffered uniquely at the hands the brutal "English" (which was actually the Normans any way), when in reality there's plenty of parallels all over the world that get no attention what so ever, and also this idea that the English should be uniquely apologetic for their history, when I don't see people in any other country apologising for their colonial history.

The English have become something of an easy target I think, a scapegoat for the ills of the world, mainly because we don't generally challenge that.


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## GaelicWestIndian (Jan 20, 2021)

WorldWar1812 said:


> JWW427 said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



Possibly the Great Frost disaster in the early 1740s killed many of the trees...


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## feralimal (Jan 20, 2021)

matematik said:


> The English have become something of an easy target I think, a scapegoat for the ills of the world, mainly because we don't generally challenge that.


"English" is a concept.  Countries are a concept.  It is an idea that you have been taught to accept and feel defensive about.

I don't feel that way - we are all individuals. To buy into the idea of England, the Queen and all that, is just to buy into the English cult. Or Irish cult, for the craic. Nothing to feel proud or embarrassed of. These geographical areas are really just administrative regions. No need to be defined by someone else's cult once you can reason for yourself.

Those that have run England though, have certainly impacted other countries. With Darwin, the Huxleys, HG Wells, City of London, etc, etc, we can see many examples of how England's rulers have impacted the wider world. Here are a couple of great shows that touch on the overall hidden geopolitical nature of this reality, where we can see in their own words (in books) how this occurred in recent years - you will be surprised how much 'England' figures in that:

https://jaysanalysis.com/2020/12/16...ism-the-vatican-klaus-richard-grove-jay-dyer/
https://jaysanalysis.com/2021/01/06...ien-disclosure-part-2-jay-dyer-richard-grove/


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## Oracle (Jan 21, 2021)

feralimal said:


> matematik said:
> 
> 
> > The English have become something of an easy target I think, a scapegoat for the ills of the world, mainly because we don't generally challenge that.
> ...


This is a recurring theme with this user I've noticed right across the board.
Often totally inappropriate and off topic.I sometimes wondered was it a deliberate thread killing/sliding tactic of a cointel troll but he's posted some good material elsewhere so probably just misplaced over enthusiastic nationalism. Good call mate and thanks for the links.


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## matematik (Jan 21, 2021)

Oracle said:


> feralimal said:
> 
> 
> > matematik said:
> ...



I find it ironic how you say my nationalism is "inappropriate" when you are the user who literally posted an Irish sectarian song, and we all know what Irish sectarianism leads to. Then again funding the IRA was popular in the US so I suppose you think they are wholesome, salt of the earth "freedom fighters". I really don't see what is appropriate about that sort of thing on a forum that is supposed to be about discussing history, not modern tribal politics and conflicts.

I find it odd how there seems to be this mentality that everyone elses' nationalism is fine and to be encouraged, but English nationalism is bad and oppressive and must be stamped out. I suppose it's not surprising though, as I said England is the most common scapegoat for the ills of the world, even most native English people despise their own country and history.


feralimal said:


> matematik said:
> 
> 
> > The English have become something of an easy target I think, a scapegoat for the ills of the world, mainly because we don't generally challenge that.
> ...



So it's ok for Oracle to post an Irish sectarian song, but not for me to respond to that? Give over. You may hate your own country but I don't and you will find that most people around the world don't regardless of the history of their elites.


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## feralimal (Jan 21, 2021)

What does it mean to 'love your country'?  What exactly are you loving?  The history, the area, the culture you born into, the tax, its rules, the governance structure?  It seems like a misplaced feeling.  Can your country love you back?

As far as I can tell, its an idea, taught to people to better collectivise and administer them. If you are taught to love your rulers and their ideas, you can then put their intentions in your heart, and do their bidding without even being asked, or realising that you are a slave.

You are not a citizen of a country.  You are an autonomous individual.


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## trismegistus (Jan 21, 2021)

matematik said:


> I find it ironic how you say my nationalism is "inappropriate" when you are the user who literally posted an Irish sectarian song, and we all know what Irish sectarianism leads to. Then again funding the IRA was popular in the US so I suppose you think they are wholesome, salt of the earth "freedom fighters". I really don't see what is appropriate about that sort of thing on a forum that is supposed to be about discussing history, not modern tribal politics and conflicts.



From an anthropological perspective, sharing that song is relevant content to the thread.  I don't see any evidence that Oracle tacitly supports or promotes any further ideas related to Irish political parties.  However, admittedly I cannot speak for Oracle so I am only seeing what I observe as a mod.  

However, at the risk of spinning this thread out into complete offtopic territory I would recommend that any user who still has concerns over the content of another poster in this thread creates a report or to take it off this thread in general.

Please keep subsequent posts relevant to the OP, or thread may be locked or comments removed.


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## matematik (Jan 21, 2021)

feralimal said:


> What does it mean to 'love your country'?  What exactly are you loving?  The history, the area, the culture you born into, the tax, its rules, the governance structure?  It seems like a misplaced feeling.  Can your country love you back?
> 
> As far as I can tell, its an idea, taught to people to better collectivise and administer them. If you are taught to love your rulers and their ideas, you can then put their intentions in your heart, and do their bidding without even being asked, or realising that you are a slave.
> 
> You are not a citizen of a country.  You are an autonomous individual.



This whole concept of this thread is a celebration of Ireland though, and therefore presumably a love for the country/culture. Do you take issue with that? I think your apparent disdain for patriotism/love of ones country is a very British liberal mentality.

I think it's perfectly possible to love ones country and want to defend its traditions and identity without supporting the government/elites, in fact very often British nationalism is directly at odds with the government especially these days in a climate where any expression of nationalism is labelled as "racist" and "hate speech". I would also comment that most of the British elites are not even English, they are largely of Norman and other foreign descent.

Your implication that the sum of English culture is the City of London and the royal family, and therefore suggesting that English people should be ashamed of their nationality because of that is ridiculous. That's like saying Italians should be ashamed of their nationality and heritage because of the Vatican.


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## Knowncitizen (Jan 21, 2021)

I'm Irish and I'm proud of my Celtic heritage but as for what is going on with Ireland, that's an ever changing landscape. Ireland has been raped and pillaged for centuries by the people in power and not the average man. I have no hatred toward the English for what happened in the past , that is almost as silly as the current black people trying to make me feel guilty for white mans crimes hundreds of years ago.


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## feralimal (Jan 22, 2021)

matematik said:


> feralimal said:
> 
> 
> > What does it mean to 'love your country'?  What exactly are you loving?  The history, the area, the culture you born into, the tax, its rules, the governance structure?  It seems like a misplaced feeling.  Can your country love you back?
> ...



I think loving your country is a ridiculous notion, whether its the UK, Ireland, the US or anything.  "I love those people who administer me, and tell me what I can and can't do!".  Ridiculous!  That a circumstance of birth should confer some sense of superiority over others is ridiculous in itself, but you are feeling proud of what exactly?  The way the government is structured?  The countries your country's government beat in previous wars?  How your government spends the taxes it extracts from the hostage population by use of force?  The laws it has?

I've no problem with people having customs - I think that's great.  Enjoy special food, songs, dances, idiosyncratic speech, whatever - that's all great. I love seeing different cultures.  Those customs are nothing to do with the country though or being a citizen of a country.

Discussion of culture in intentionally conflated with government and country.  They are not the same thing.

The government will promote cultural ideas only in so far as they help achieve its aims of greater control.  So they are useful as a divide and conquer strategy.  But don't be confused = as soon as possible the government will sell you down the river - creating burdensome restrictions for local companies and business, turning town centers into cultural dead ends full of corporate entities such as McDonalds and Starbucks, etc.  Surely I'm not saying anything surprising here, am I?  Surely we have all seen that cultural variations in our countries have decreased over time, that places are more similar with less local customs?  Do you think the current crisis will decrease or accelerate that trend?

The reality is that there are only individual people. The ideas they hold - such as in the validity of government, of 'country', of 'us' - create or manifest the reality we experience. Local customs are an expression of personality - no problem.  But if you want to hold to the notions on country that were provided to you, and that you were educated into believing and even loving, you are part of the problem. If you do, you are embracing your slavery and the collectivisation of all us all. And you will accept violence on others in the name of the greater good (king and country) when you inflict your received opinions about country on others who don't agree that any statist apparatus is morally acceptable.


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## Jd755 (Jan 22, 2021)

There never was old world governance. 
Anarchy prevailed. It still does but people seem to gain a comfort in pretending otherwise
Ireland or Hibernia or whatever else the island has been named is just a construct of the mind in the same way governance is.


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## matematik (Jan 22, 2021)

kd-755 said:


> There never was old world governance.
> Anarchy prevailed. It still does but people seem to gain a comfort in pretending otherwise
> Ireland or Hibernia or whatever else the island has been named is just a construct of the mind in the same way governance is.



Some countries/people are very attached to this notion of an unbroken historical lineage, it often seems to me that the term "Celtic" is used very loosely to refer to anything not "English". I've even heard the term "Romano-Celtic" used a lot as if the Romans and Celts were basically one and the same as opposed to the "English".


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## Knowncitizen (Jan 22, 2021)

matematik said:


> kd-755 said:
> 
> 
> > There never was old world governance.
> ...


This thread has veered off into your defense of the English for some reason. I'm puzzled? Why defend the English if countries don't matter? Do you personally know any of the people involved in the history of Ireland?


----------



## matematik (Jan 22, 2021)

Knowncitizen said:


> matematik said:
> 
> 
> > kd-755 said:
> ...



I wasn't specifically criticising Ireland or its history actually, just saying that often I think the term "Celtic" is used very loosely and sometimes seems quite political, and this is probably the case in Britain even more so than Ireland. I was agreeing with kd-755's sentiment that peoples' modern idea of nations and a linear historical narrative from the past to the present day is an artificial construct that many seem to take comfort in.

This doesn't only happen with "Celtic" either, in Greece there's a strong tendency to want to portray a completely linear transition from Ancient Greece to modern Greece, as if today's Greeks are their direct descendants, same with the "Han Chinese" in China and their 5,000 year history or what ever it is.


feralimal said:


> matematik said:
> 
> 
> > feralimal said:
> ...



You're the one conflating country/culture with government and big corporations. In my experience patriotic people are usually among the most anti-government and anti-corporation, especially in England where patriotism has long been considered taboo and tantamount to "racism". Your claim that English patriotism means supporting the City of London and the royal family is just not true, if anything patriotic people are by far the most likely to criticise those institutions as foreign impositions and completely detrimental to the interests native English people (let me guess you don't think there's any such thing as "native" English people?).

In the UK big corporations are among the biggest enemies of English people, most of them openly support elite, globalist agendas like BLM and mass immigration. Many of them openly pledge to specifically give preference to non-whites for employment just because they're non-white, essentially saying they want to disenfranchise native English people in their own country.

Culture and nation are intrinsically linked, you can't have one without the other, and I mean "nation" in terms of a specific ethnic/cultural group, not a modern state/governmental construct. You seem to be advocating for some sort of borderless world with no concept of race and nationality, but do you really think different cultures and traditions would survive in such an environment? That borderless NWO with one globalist culture is the aim of the globalists, the likes of the City of London and the Royals. They care nothing for English patriotism, in fact they see it as something that needs to be stamped out.


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## FAELAGUM (Jan 22, 2021)

kd-755 said:


> There never was old world governance.
> Anarchy prevailed. It still does but people seem to gain a comfort in pretending otherwise
> Ireland or Hibernia or whatever else the island has been named is just a construct of the mind in the same way governance is.




I wholeheartedly disagree with your claim 'Anarchy prevailed'.

Nature follows an order. The river has it's motion set and flows accordingly. This is not anarchy, but order. And us humans mimic nature.
Anarchy is what we see now. Where you have AFA, BLM and other lawless "anarchy" cells acting inorganically to what nature is supposed to be namely what we have now in cities, roaming, looting and obstructing law and order.

Now, elements of free will in nature ought not to be defined as anarchy since their is law free will cannot defy, and defying such law causes friction between forces, and sometimes the friction becomes so violent one has to be eliminated if not the forces involved do not apply peace, stillness and calmness to their encounter, meeting and so forth.

Don't fight. Just sit, relax and do nothing. Enjoy the weather!
If you are hungry, go hunt some salmons like the bears do. Now that is violence because you as a human can eat blueberries instead which a bear cannot because the bear has claws and cannot pick blueberries.


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## Jd755 (Jan 22, 2021)

I neither seek nor expect agreement with anything I post.
Anarchy can be defined as anything just like every other word in any language can be. To me it simply means without government.
Of course this simplicity gets immediately conflated into without law, more specifically without the law but what those who say such things really mean without the legal.

In the context of the op premise of Ireland being an example of governance of the old world the one before the catastrophe or the demolition or replacement of the old world it can be construed many ways, it is still falling into the idea that there has to be governance.  I see nothing in my readings of history of these so called British Isles that reveals anything but governance of some description or other at least in the documented and pictorial sources and it could be argued in the architectural sources but it is impossible to derive truths from fictions. Governance is a fiction. Law of Nature is a fiction.
However, whoever, whatever is running this thing I was taught to call life doesn't appear to confide in me what is going on. Objective reality  observation reveals life here is reliant on death. Unless we can get a handle on what death may be or is then we live a life confined by other peoples imaginary fears.

Apologies dreamtime if I have wandered to far. Please delete if you feel it appropriate.

EDIT to correct a couple of typos


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## matematik (Jan 22, 2021)

kd-755 said:


> I neither seek nor expect agreement with anything I post.



I take it this is in reference to me saying I agreed with the sentiment of your post. I didn't think I needed a posters' permission to say I agree with their post, surely that's my decision?


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## Jd755 (Jan 22, 2021)

matematik said:


> Some countries/people are very attached to this notion of an unbroken historical lineage, it often seems to me that the term "Celtic" is used very loosely to refer to anything not "English". I've even heard the term "Romano-Celtic" used a lot as if the Romans and Celts were basically one and the same as opposed to the "English".


I've read on numerous occasions the Celts or more accurately the term Celts was invented in Victorian times used in the same way as Roman us ie by the Jesuit Church to paint its pictures over things its people decided were 'too ugly' for their tastes. No way to prove it either way of course but thought it worth the mention.


matematik said:


> kd-755 said:
> 
> 
> > I neither seek nor expect agreement with anything I post.
> ...


Dear god. 
This is what I was referring to!


FAELAGUM said:


> I wholeheartedly disagree with your claim 'Anarchy prevailed'.


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## matematik (Jan 22, 2021)

kd-755 said:


> Dear god.
> This is what I was referring to!



Oh, apologies. I'm starting to get a bit overly defensive.


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## feralimal (Jan 22, 2021)

matematik said:


> Culture and nation are intrinsically linked, you can't have one without the other, and I mean "nation" in terms of a specific ethnic/cultural group, not a modern state/governmental construct. You seem to be advocating for some sort of borderless world with no concept of race and nationality, but do you really think different cultures and traditions would survive in such an environment? That borderless NWO with one globalist culture is the aim of the globalists, the likes of the City of London and the Royals. They care nothing for English patriotism, in fact they see it as something that needs to be stamped out.


Nation is a made up concept.  Culture is the food you eat, language, customs, etc.

Think about the hobbits if you're familiar with the Hobbit. They had a culture but not a nation. There was no "Hobbitland". They just lived somewhere and did their thing. So, culture and nation are not intrinsically linked, but intentionally conflated, for the benefit of nation.

Who said anything about a borderless world? Do you think I am an advocate for the NWO? Lol.

If you are saying something like nations are worth attempting to defend, in the face of a planetary NWO that makes up crises to justify taking greater control over those they claim to rule over - ie a tactical, pragmatic move to prevent being steamrollered - I'd probably agree. But it would just be a small step. Individuals don't need greater collectivisation in any of its forms.


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## asatiger1966 (Jan 24, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> Looks like the Irish resisted the empire until the 17th (or even 18th) Century, and the potato famine was created to destroy the remains of the old decentralized system of the tuath under British rule.
> 
> I propose the way the old world worked was like this:
> 
> ...



The Druids were the offspring of the Gentry that arrived in Ireland about 1,450 BC. They came in a grey cloud that hung over the Island for over three days. When the sun came the Gentry were on the ground in their colored round floating houses that spun around and around.

The Gentry interacted with the locals and taught them farming, science, laws, machinery,and everything needed to build a civilized cultured world. They had many cities on the island along with colonies in Europe.

There was a large tribe, many cities, in  what now is London area. The tribe was black, tall, cannibals and not trustworthy. The Gentry met them and convinced them to stop the cannibalism and they did for a while. After a year or two they started eating people again.

The gentry killed most of them and the rest moved to the opposite side of the channel.


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## tobyahnah (Feb 15, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> codis said:
> 
> 
> > I suppose it could not have been like that.
> ...


a LOT? They claim everything! 
Abilene, Texas, as an example, was incorporated and established as a trail head for shipping cattle out to the big cities. This was after the order of Abilene, Kansas. 
Every property Title in Abilene, Tx., every Deed, was issued by the town Clerk first to the Catholic Church. Why?
The Church had previously claimed it and therefore they owned it.
Plus, they had several armies to back it up. In fact all armies.
The Planet Earth was colonised, in this go round, by the Catholic church acting with the might of Portugal, Spain, England, France and Holland Navy's in conjunction with the Navy of Rome (Vatican City).
During the colonization Rome, Vatican City, the Church, played off each colonizer against the others as it suited the purpose of the Church. Rapaciousness describes it best.
They did this in WW2 having diplomatic couriers, secret agents too, for Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt at the same time. 
They still do today with the Vatican Diplomat in every Capital city, named after Capitoline Hill in Rome, being the Chief Diplomat of the Diplomat Corps, or group of diplomats, of that city and of the whole world. 
Pontiff Maximus: Chief Bridge Builder/Chief Diplomat.
Ireland is reputed to have been the resting place for the Bible, the Book, of multiple books including the 66 now in the KJV, for several centuries as the Bible was kept alive through the dark ages and the middle ages by Clerics, or Clerks, later to be priests. Supposedly - it was the pagan Celts, educated, scribes who transliterated or translated the original scriptures, book of books from many scribes and man ages, for all tongues.
I thank the Celts. 
Disclosure: I have an Irish bloodline in the Pac family dating to the 1700's.
The Catholics can kiss my ... rose. So can the Irish. A rose by any other name...
Interesting how the adage/law/commandment 'Love of money is the root of all evil' lives on in the Catholic Church while the Protestant Church is slowly absorbed back into the fold, the cloak, of the Church of Rome!
There are a horrendous lot of intentional mis-translations in the Bible, whichever one you like, whether the fault of Irish scribes or others, but the adage regarding the 'love of money', and 'interest', or 'usury', is rock solid dead on. It survives because it had to. Some others too, like: Ps. 68:4 or Jer. 23:26, 27. These are scripts that know priest will touch with a long pole. Both compelling and condemning at once. So many other truths are upside down or even backwards but this one... cuts to the chase and cuts all bonds put on it. "Usury, the charging of interest, is the root of all evil."
Other truths  live on within the pages of the Bible but pick and choose with care. I am just quoting but with a lifetime of experience to validate it.
The Irish saved this book, the Bible, from utter ruin by Rome. Then Rome, as they always do, used one of their chattel Crowns to punish Ireland and turn it into a democracy, demon crazy, bunch of cultists.
Some may depend on COVID to take down the evil empire and everything else with it. Some may depend on God to do that same when God, or god, is the architect of it.
I say Yahweh will take care of his own!
You will know the days are short when Rome is burning to the ground.
When Damascus gets nuked.
When two billion are dead but the slaughter continues.
Then look for your redemption on high.
In the meantime; those who remember the past, clearly, are the most likely to survive the future!


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## Citezenship (Feb 15, 2021)

tobyahnah said:


> The Catholics can kiss my ... rose.


I think you mean, Kiss my rosebud, although that may excited them!


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## tobyahnah (Feb 15, 2021)

Citezenship said:


> tobyahnah said:
> 
> 
> > The Catholics can kiss my ... rose.
> ...


I get the humor but, would hesitate to ascribe the same immorality to the Irish, well maybe a few, as to the Romans.
There is not much negative you can say about the Irish except, well their whiskey is a little weak, but, that they got snookered by the English who have been in bed with Rome since at least Edward the Confessor: idiot that He was.
Yes, I would tell him to his face.

There is a maxim which says: 'A man without a woman is like a ship without a port.' Everyone, men and women, seem to like that one.
The flip side? Not so much: 'A woman without a man is like a ship without a rudder.'  Rome, the Church, is described as a woman without a man.
There is a deep religious, linguistic secret therein to let percolate a while. For men and women.
So it is with all of these churches. Gadzillions of them. And the govs they are in bed with.
They all follow Rome to perdition. Hopefully.
I have more hope for Ireland than most countries. With what they have learned from tyrants, in the potato famine and emigration debacle(s) particularly, they should be able to withstand any storm including the weather they are under and will be for the next 33yrs.
Fundamentally, I believe we have all of the data we need.
What we need are sharper glasses to see through.
No doubt; Stolen History.net and .org are on the cutting edge of the past and future. What comes next is up to the members.


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## Citezenship (Feb 15, 2021)

tobyahnah said:


> I get the humor but, would hesitate to ascribe the same immorality to the Irish, well maybe a few,


It was me trying to point out the roman proclivity for the rosebud, 
a desire for _anal intercourse_ and sexual contact with the genitalia of the young.

I did not mean to offend, please accept my humble apology!


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## tobyahnah (Feb 15, 2021)

Citezenship said:


> tobyahnah said:
> 
> 
> > I get the humor but, would hesitate to ascribe the same immorality to the Irish, well maybe a few,
> ...


I got it. No offense. 
Homosexuality is a self perpetuating perversion which goes against common sense let alone creativity. Nonetheless, it appears bored humans, especially in closed up cloisters, have a penchant for it. Catholics being the most notorious.
To me that just indicates 'they' are not 'practicing' anything to become proficient at it. They are just doing what inanity they have been taught to gain acceptance.
We are not targeting Catholics here, or Jews, Protestants, Hindi, etc. because in all cloistered areas there are aberrations.
We are just pointing out that such aberrant behaviour exists and it intereferes with serious discourse and discovery of Truth. Define Truth.
People can do what they like and I can leave the room too. As I often do. 
In any and every case the servant is obedient to the master by design. This is most incorporated in religion and less so in commerce which is directed by religion and therefore already in play and in force.
From either a religious, political or historical approach it is notable how little credit Ireland gets for its part in retaining renderings which would be lost without their, the-ir, the Irish, energy.
Is there a more maligned group, class, religion on earth than those of Eire?
Not only do I have the Irish of the Pacs but the Irish and Scottish of the Mc/Macs of whom I shall not say.
It has been exposed that there is no known origin, aside from the Bible tale, of the modern human. Including all races. How can that be?
I think we are being punked! Or puked!

People can do what they want including 'murder'. That is what free moral agency allows, and, we do have that.
However, if any part of a plant is perverted the odds are that the plant will die. So goes, also, for political or religious states.


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## matematik (Feb 15, 2021)

tobyahnah said:


> Is there a more maligned group, class, religion on earth than those of Eire?



I'd say the English give them strong competition for that title in 2021. Even the St. George's Cross is considered a racist banner, whereas no one would say the Irish flag was such a banner. British/English history has also recently been declared by Oxford to be "worse than the Nazis".

Actually, today the English are much more maligned than the Irish, it's not even a competition. No doubt even saying this will make many people angry, which rather proves the point I think.


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## tobyahnah (Feb 15, 2021)

matematik said:


> tobyahnah said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a more maligned group, class, religion on earth than those of Eire?
> ...


I could go on a tear with that but suffice to say that the St. George Cross is by no means racist. Or prejudiced. Not at all. 
That particular Cross, shared by the Pope, the Templars, the Swiss, the Red Cross, the British Colonies, and so many others, terrifies all equally. For a couple of thousand years anyway.
I suspect that George himself was the director of the death of Tartaryah and so much more that we could fill volumes.
Oh, I forgot, we are right here on Stolen History!


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## Curved Pluto (Feb 15, 2021)

I would like to link a book that has collaboration with the OP and with what Blue Ice stated.

Irish Wisdom Conor Mac Dari : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive 

I don't agree with everything he says in the book, but its hard to agree with everything anyone says or writes, especially as new things are constantly coming to light in history and science. One just has to use a little discernment to pull the truth from the lies and he does have a few good truths locked away in his book.

Also, I found this kind of interesting to note about the Irish

Ancient bones reveal Irish are not Celts after all (irishcentral.com) 

And as far as loving ones country, I think it is excellent to love ones country. That does not mean I love everything about the country I live in, the U.S.A.; but I do love my country and my heritage. It's good to love. It's good to have some pride in ones nation and history as long as that pride doesn't lead to hated or evil actions. Just like it is good to have some discrimination as long as that discrimination doesn't  lead to hate or sinful actions. Every country and/or race has had atrocities done to them and done them themselves. I'll stop there.


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## matematik (Feb 15, 2021)

tobyahnah said:


> matematik said:
> 
> 
> > tobyahnah said:
> ...



I know the symbol of the St. George's Cross is not maligned in general, or even specifically English, but it is certainly maligned when used as a symbol of English patriotism. You would almost never see the St. George's Cross flown in any official capacity anywhere in England (outside of football any way), but in Scotland, Wales and Ireland they fly their own flags freely, as they should be able to.

The St. George's Cross in Britain definitely has a strongly negative stigma as being a "racist chav" sort of thing, I think people would tend to make a lot of negative assumptions about people who display a St. George's Cross in England which they wouldn't for other national flags.


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## matematik (Mar 24, 2021)

I guess you will resent me saying it, but it has always seemed to me that the British are under particular attack by the "powers that be". Even with this current "pandemic" a disproportionate amount of the focus seems to be on Britain, like how the British are being vaccinated at a much faster rate than anywhere else in Europe, and how many of the "new strains" are being supposedly discovered in Britain and many countries are blaming their pandemics on the "British/English strain", and also all the controversy over AstraZeneca, the so called "British vaccine".

Maybe I am being overly Anglo-centric and not seeing the bigger picture, but the words "Britain" and "England" do seem to appear an awful lot in things related to this "pandemic". Britain is obviously the seat of the royal family and also City of London, so arguably the de facto seat of the NWO, so perhaps that is an explanation for why the "powers that be" would have an interest in asserting spiritual control over the population of this country?

Also, I've noticed that in Spain many houses have these decorative iron bars on the windows, especially in more rural areas. I always assumed that it was just an old fashioned form of security, but having read your post I wonder now whether the origin of the practice is more spiritual?


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## Mosaic (Oct 31, 2021)

I found an interesting website about the Irish Holocaust from 1845-1850 including free ebook on the subject:


> Only when you, the Diaspora and the Proud Irish Men & Women,
> spread the truth of what really happened during that terrible time
> in Ireland's history of 1845-1850 and seek recognition and justice,
> only when you STAND UP for the truth, can the 5+ Million
> souls who perished, truly Rest In Peace.


PERFECT HOLOCAUST BOOK



> Ireland in 1845-1850 was essentially, entirely owned by English landlords, many of them Lords temporal or spiritual, in estates typically of tens of thousands of acres. Their land titles were conquest-based.  On these estates the Irish were tenants-at-will on holdings of typically three to eight acres the rent of which they paid by, typically, 250-260 days of unpaid work annually on the landlord’s estate.
> 
> In previous centuries the Irish, under British rule, were non-persons, stripped of legal personhood. As murder requires personhood: the Irish were thus legally killable by any English person at will. Education was prohibited by law.
> 
> ...



Probably we are not dealing with "800 years of English oppression/attempted genocide" but with a targeted action in the 19th century in which everything was wiped out.

In any case, I find it remarkable that the British used more military force during the Irish "famine crisis" than during the conquest of the Indian subcontinent.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gU-b1nSXOc_


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## Will Scarlet (Oct 31, 2021)

Mosaic said:


> Probably we are not dealing with "800 years of English oppression/attempted genocide" but with a targeted action in the 19th century in which everything was wiped out.



Targeted against whom? Everyone everywhere? Are you basing that assumption upon what happened in Ireland during a four year period?



Mosaic said:


> In any case, I find it remarkable that the British used more military force during the Irish "famine crisis" than during the conquest of the Indian subcontinent.



Exactly - so how many troops would it require for "a targeted action in the 19th century in which everything was wiped out"? Also, would it have wiped out everything except the troops?

The historical evidence for the "800 years of English oppression" is overwhelming and began with the English traitor Cromwell and then continued with William of Orange - the puppet king of the Dutch Jewish Financiers, who established the Bank of England and the National Debt - which, unlike the Irish one, has never been repaid.


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## matematik (Oct 31, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> The historical evidence for the "800 years of English oppression" is overwhelming



Evidence of Irish Catholic mass murder of Protestants is overwhelming too, if you want to play that game.


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## dreamtime (Oct 31, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> The historical evidence for the "800 years of English oppression" is overwhelming and began with William of Orange, the puppet king of the Dutch Jewish Financiers, who established the Bank of England and the National Debt - which, unlike the Irish one, has never been repaid.



So according to the official history, the English oppressed the Irish for hundreds of years. By 1550 the British ruled over the Irish in every aspect, but only in 1798 with the Irish Rebellion did the Irish fight back? This seems suspicious.


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## Will Scarlet (Oct 31, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> This seems suspicious.



...suspicious? So what do you think they were really up to then?



Year(s)Location(s)ConflictOrganiser(s)1534Lordship of Ireland (Dublin)Silken Thomas RebellionFitzGeralds of Kildare1569–73Kingdom of Ireland (Province of Munster)First Desmond RebellionFitzGeralds of Desmond and allied clans1579–83Kingdom of Ireland (Provinces of Munster and Leinster)Second Desmond RebellionFitzGeralds of Desmond and allied clans1593–1603Kingdom of IrelandNine Years' WarHugh Ó Neill, Hugh Ó Donnell and allied clans1608Kingdom of Ireland (County Donegal)O'Doherty's rebellionSir Cahir O'Doherty1641Kingdom of IrelandIrish Rebellion of 1641Phelim Ó Neill, Rory Ó Moore, Conor Maguire, Hugh Óg MacMahon1642–52Kingdom of IrelandIrish Confederate WarsIrish Catholic Confederation1689–91Kingdom of IrelandWilliamite WarJacobites under James II of England1798Kingdom of IrelandIrish Rebellion of 1798Society of United Irishmen1799–1803Kingdom of Ireland, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (County Wicklow)Michael Dwyer's Guerrilla campaignMichael Dwyer and his followers (Society of United Irishmen)


Source


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## dreamtime (Oct 31, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> ...suspicious? So what do you think they were really up to then?



Currently I am not entirely sure, I am just asking questions. Why did it take the Irish 250 years to start an uprising? Do you think thats plausible?


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## Will Scarlet (Oct 31, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> Why did it take the Irish 250 years to start an uprising? Do you think thats plausible?



Did you see the table listing the 10 Irish uprisings and wars during that period in my previous comment?

If not it's here: List of Irish uprisings - Wikipedia


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## dreamtime (Oct 31, 2021)

Yes, I need to look into those in in more detail.


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## Jd755 (Oct 31, 2021)

If you chaps do not mind please could you write out what your frame of reference for evidence is as I have no clue what to trust.
Cheers.

Edit to add a missing 'what'


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## matematik (Oct 31, 2021)

Personally if the "evidence" for anything is Wikipedia that makes me even more suspicious of it, because anything on there is 100% establishment/cabal narrative.


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## Will Scarlet (Nov 1, 2021)

matematik said:


> Evidence of Irish Catholic mass murder of Protestants is overwhelming too, if you want to play that game.



*I'm not playing any games!* How could you consider any of this murder and suffering to be as trivial as a game?

It seems like you have completely missed the point of my comment.


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## asatiger1966 (Nov 1, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> Looks like the Irish resisted the empire until the 17th (or even 18th) Century, and the potato famine was created to destroy the remains of the old decentralized system of the tuath under British rule.
> 
> I propose the way the old world worked was like this:
> 
> ...



The Irish Potato Famine 1845-1850 did not kill but about thirty percent of the potato crop, also the potato crop accounted for about fifteen percent of the Irish food production yearly. The so called famine was a cover the British used to claim the Irish could not live on the land and would die unless they were sent overseas, against their will, as  indentured servants. The British needed vast food supplies for their Colonial Army, so they took about ninety percent of the food produced by the Irish and shipped it overseas. Yes leaving the Irish to starve.

The roads for many miles , every day, heading west to their seaports were guarded by Bristh troops to ensure no interruptions in their theft.
The British stole all of their food then sold the Irish into slavery to save them. My recall is about five million slaves were sent to every British colony.


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## Sasyexa (Nov 1, 2021)

Would Brehons have anything to do with Brahmins perchance?


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## asatiger1966 (Nov 1, 2021)

WorldWar1812 said:


> Why has Ireland so few trees?



A few years back on the old forum, I commented from a book I had read, One of the reasons given for the influx of black slaves from Africa was Ireland had suffered a cataclysm which left eighty five kilometers of new land on Irelands Atlantic side. Meaning the white slaves could no longer meet the demand. All ports and infrastructure gone.


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## Will Scarlet (Nov 2, 2021)

It's interesting that the term 'Tuath' is the very same term as the Tuatha de Danann (People of Dana) who ruled Ireland in the distant past.



Sasyexa said:


> Would Brehons have anything to do with Brahmins perchance?



 Imo, no. Brahmins were akin to the Druidic Bards.



asatiger1966 said:


> Meaning the white slaves could no longer meet the demand. All ports and infrastructure gone.



I wonder if that ties in with the Potato Famine malarkey you mentioned previously? Do you have a source for the enforced indentured servitude business?

In Scotland the similar absence of trees is put down to shipbuilding. However, I favour Felix Noille's theory of the Arctic Circle cataclysm to explain both Ireland and Scotland's lack of trees... Iceland's as well.

As someone else has also mentioned the Great Frost, was no doubt a contributing factor. (Records of this event seem to have survived only in Ireland. If you google 'Great Frost' you will get different ones.):

The "Great Frost" struck Ireland and the rest of Europe between December 1739 and September 1741, indoor temperature values during January 1740 were as low as 10 °F (−12 °C).[1] The one outdoor reading that has survived was stated as "thirty-two degrees of frost", not including the wind chill factor, which was severe. During the ramp up to the crisis in January 1740, the winds and terrible cold intensified, yet barely any snow fell. Ireland was locked into a stable and vast high-pressure system which affected most of Europe, from Scandinavia and Russia to northern Italy, in a broadly similar way. Rivers, lakes, and waterfalls froze and fish died in these first weeks of the Great Frost.

Professor John Sweeney of the Irish Climate Analysis Research Unit (ICARUS) at Maynooth University said the exact cause of the sever winter of 1740-41 remains a mystery.

“A change in solar or volcanic activity is one possible theory,” he said.

Somewhere in the range of 310,000 and 480,000 people, out of the 2.4 million population, are believed to have perished during the extreme weather conditions which swept across the country, between 1739 and 1741, according to the book “Arctic Ireland.”

The frost “remains to this day, the longest period of extreme cold in modern European history.” The Irish population endured "21 months of bizarre weather" that was "without known precedent and defied conventional explanation".

It was shortly after Christmas on December 29, 1739 that the Great Frost began and "introduced a cold so penetrating that liquids froze indoors and ice floes appeared at the river mouths".

The devastation included three ships sinking in Dublin Bay, drowning all on board.

Temperatures plummeted to levels where the rivers Lifffety, Slaney, Boyne and parts of the Shannon froze over, as well as several lakes throughout the country. Large volumes of fish also perished and were found along the shores of Strangford Lough and Lough Neagh.

Disruption to coal imports being brought from across the Irish Sea caused coal prices to soar, resulting in "hedges, fine trees, and nurseries around Dublin were stripped bare as desperate people searched for substitute fuel".

"The frost also plunged the streets of Dublin into darkness at night, for not only were there problems in milling the rape-seed to make the customary lamp oil, but even fully serviced lamps were being snuffed out by the intense cold," according to the book.

The situation worsened when the frost virtually wiped out the potato crop the following spring and widespread drought killed off sheep and cattle.

Blizzards swept along the east coast in late October 1740 depositing snow and returned several times in November. Then a massive rain downpour occurred on 9 December 1740, causing widespread flooding. A day after the floods, the temperature plummeted, snow fell, and rivers and other bodies of water froze. Warm temperatures followed the cold snap, which lasted about ten days. Great chunks of ice careened down the Liffey River through the heart of Dublin, overturning light vessels and causing larger vessels to break anchor.

Fifty to a hundred years passed before Ireland became healthy again, only to experience the 1840s famine. Dickson notes that an upsurge in migration out of Ireland in the years after the 1740–1741 crisis, similar to the mass emigration in the 1840s, did not occur. One additional item: Irish Dendrochronologist Mike Baillie confirmed tree ring patterns in 1740 that were consistent with severe cold.

The year 1741, during which the famine was at its worst and mortality was greatest, was known in folk memory as the "year of the slaughter" (or "bliain an áir" in Irish).

 (I've had this in my notes for a few years and don't remember the source, apart from those mentioned in the text.)


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## asatiger1966 (Nov 2, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> It's interesting that the term 'Tuath' is the very same term as the Tuatha de Dannan (People of Dana) who ruled Ireland in the distant past.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The following may help. If not let me know.


Will Scarlet said:


> It's interesting that the term 'Tuath' is the very same term as the Tuatha de Dannan (People of Dana) who ruled Ireland in the distant past.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The " Tuatha de Dannan " were called " The Gentry " they arrived about 1,450 B.C. and immediately started teaching the locals farming, tool making, language skills , arts and sciences. Created schools at major towns, taught law and responsibility They interbred with the locals and a few were chosen for education at the universities where after twenty years they became Druids and started teaching themselves. Need more ask and I will spend some time in my library, always enjoy that.


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## Will Scarlet (Nov 3, 2021)

@asatiger1966  excellent information, many thanks. I have my own theories and research regarding the Tuatha de Dannan, but thank you for the offer.

I find it ironic that the mythical Fomorians, who were apparently defeated by the Tuatha de Danann (in the Christianised version of the 9th-11th centuries,) were portrayed with an identical character to the 'English' and capable of causing all of the same disasters and atrocities.

In general, stories say the Fomorians took pleasure in waging war and when they conquered other races, they would proceed to *enslave *them. They were described as having the power to control certain forces of nature, notably the more destructive ones, including the weather, *crop-blight,* and plagues.

In fact it's almost as if the Fomorians were resurrected or reincarnated in the English, or 'took possession' of them ...or were somehow magically invoked by them. Sorry, thinking out loud and going off on one of my wild fantasies again.


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## usselo (Nov 3, 2021)

asatiger1966 said:


> The following may help. If not let me know.
> 
> The " Tuatha de Dannan " were called " The Gentry " they arrived about 1,450 B.C. and immediately started teaching the locals farming, tool making, language skills , arts and sciences. Created schools at major towns, taught law and responsibility They interbred with the locals and a few were chosen for education at the universities where after twenty years they became Druids and started teaching themselves. Need more ask and I will spend some time in my library, always enjoy that.


That is interesting. I'm sure many of us would like to know more.

Do you have anything that evidences or casts doubt on that 1,450 BC date? And anything that suggests a departure time?

I'd like to see if the Tuatha de Dannan could possibly be any of these historical entities from English history/mythology:

The Danann
The Danes
Deus/Jews/joueurs de jeux (game players)
Giants/Geants/Gentility
Nobility
Yeomanry
From _The Torrington Diaries (Abridged Selection)_, John Byng, p357 (At Bratoft, East Midlands (Google Maps), (Google Streetview)):


> ... where is a small brick church; and where has been a wall'd park, and a hall, now dismantled and destroy'd. Not only gentility have fled the country, but the race of yeomanry is extinguish'd.



From _The Torrington Diaries, Vol III_, John Byng, p134 (At Ingestre Hall, West Midlands (Google Maps), (Google Streetview)):


> The ground about, and views from Ingestre, are beautiful; and this country seems to have been, formerly, studded with spacious parks, and noble mansions; at the time when the nobility resided with magnificence; and hospitality, in their several counties; before operas were known; or that it became necessary to huddle all together, in miserable, mean lodging-houses in London; there to pay extravagantly for what is brought, or stolen, from their own lands!




_Ingestre Hall. __Source_​They seem to have been driven out or away from England in around 1730 and 1760. Seemingly by events that involved flood and fire, followed by freezing weather. By 1790, Byng is reporting still very changeable weather, with lightning, cloudbursts, and with evening fires needed - at least by him - in July.


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## Will Scarlet (Nov 3, 2021)

usselo said:


> I'd like to see if the Tuatha de Dannan could possibly be any of these historical entities from English history/mythology:



The Tuatha de Dannan are a famous misspelling by that idiot @Will Scarlet.

The Tuatha de Danann were not part of either English mythology or history, but Irish and Manx. Their name means People or Offspring of Dana, who was The Goddess. They were also referred to in Ireland as 'The Gentry' which equates to the same term for a similar race in Galician/Asturian/Basque mythology who were known as the Gentiles (Hen-tee-les in Spanish). These terms had nothing to do with religion, but with their comportment, appearance and manner - they were gentle and 'fair' in all senses of the word. It contributed to the later general use of the term 'fairy'.

Personally, I've never come across the use of the term Yeomanry in relation to the Tuatha de Danann, but that doesn't mean it wasn't.


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## matematik (Nov 5, 2021)

asatiger1966 said:


> The Irish Potato Famine 1845-1850 did not kill but about thirty percent of the potato crop, also the potato crop accounted for about fifteen percent of the Irish food production yearly. The so called famine was a cover the British used to claim the Irish could not live on the land and would die unless they were sent overseas, against their will, as  indentured servants. The British needed vast food supplies for their Colonial Army, so they took about ninety percent of the food produced by the Irish and shipped it overseas. Yes leaving the Irish to starve.
> 
> The roads for many miles , every day, heading west to their seaports were guarded by Bristh troops to ensure no interruptions in their theft.
> The British stole all of their food then sold the Irish into slavery to save them. My recall is about five million slaves were sent to every British colony.



Why did "the British" need to depopulate and "plunder" Ireland for food? Why were their colonies not capable of meeting their food requirements? Were India, Canada, New Zealand, Burma, South Africa, etc, not capable of producing large amounts of food? Why was depopulating Ireland specifically so vital in your opinion?

For balance, what are your thoughts on the Holodomor in Ukraine or the famines in Kazakhstan in the early 1900s? What about the forced deportations of nationalities in the Soviet Union to do hard labour in Siberia? Was that the work of "the Russians" plundering and enslaving others, or do you have some excuse for that, like Jews, Communists, "the cabal", etc?


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## Blackdiamond (Nov 5, 2021)

matematik said:


> Why did "the British" need to depopulate and "plunder" Ireland for food? Why were their colonies not capable of meeting their food requirements? Were India, Canada, New Zealand, Burma, South Africa, etc, not capable of producing large amounts of food? Why was depopulating Ireland specifically so vital in your opinion?
> 
> For balance, what are your thoughts on the Holodomor in Ukraine or the famines in Kazakhstan in the early 1900s? What about the forced deportations of nationalities in the Soviet Union to do hard labour in Siberia? Was that the work of "the Russians" plundering and enslaving others, or do you have some excuse for that, like Jews, Communists, "the cabal", etc?


What du you mean "excuse" ? Also, do you say that the britts did not force the irish out?


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## matematik (Nov 5, 2021)

Blackdiamond said:


> What du you mean "excuse" ? Also, do you say that the britts did not force the irish out?



I don't know, according to the official "Wikipedia" narrative that's the case but I thought Stolen History forum members were supposed to be above just automatically believing the official narrative of anything?

Why do people keep saying "the British", "the Brits" as if every British person is individually responsible for every bad thing that has ever happened in the world?

Are "the Russians" responsible for the Holodomor, for the Kazakh famines, for forced deportations of non-Russian nationalities to Siberia in order to "Russify" these areas? Are "the Chinese" responsible for mass murder and internment of Tibetans and Uyghurs in order to "Sinofy" these areas? Are "the Japanese" responsible for the genocide of the Ainus in Hokkaido? Are "the Spanish" responsible for the almost total wiping out of the indigenous population of Argentina? Are "the Turks" responsible for the Armenian genocide? Are "the Arabs" responsible for the enslavement and mass murder of black people, for the kidnapping and enslavement of white people by Arab corsairs of which Ireland was a frequent target? Are "the Jews" responsible for the mass murder and deportation of Arabs from their land? Are "the Swedes" responsible for the mass sterilisation and deportation of the Sami people from their lands?

The fact is things are often, usually even, not what they seem. We live under a cabal that has manipulated and rewritten human history to an almost unfathomable extent. It seems to me a lot of people are very keen on throwing around accusations about "the Brits" and scapegoating them for all the world's ills, but not so bold in accusing other peoples.


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## Blackdiamond (Nov 5, 2021)

yes.







I get your point.


matematik said:


> I don't know, according to the official "Wikipedia" narrative that's the case but I thought Stolen History forum members were supposed to be above just automatically believing the official narrative of anything?
> 
> Why do people keep saying "the British", "the Brits" as if every British person is individually responsible for every bad thing that has ever happened in the world?
> 
> ...


No. Most likely a group using abrahamitish religion is. But the brits of yesteryear did ship the irish to the new found lands. Probably blaming the germans xD


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## asatiger1966 (Nov 5, 2021)

matematik said:


> Why did "the British" need to depopulate and "plunder" Ireland for food? Why were their colonies not capable of meeting their food requirements? Were India, Canada, New Zealand, Burma, South Africa, etc, not capable of producing large amounts of food? Why was depopulating Ireland specifically so vital in your opinion?
> 
> For balance, what are your thoughts on the Holodomor in Ukraine or the famines in Kazakhstan in the early 1900s? What about the forced deportations of nationalities in the Soviet Union to do hard labour in Siberia? Was that the work of "the Russians" plundering and enslaving others, or do you have some excuse for that, like Jews, Communists, "the cabal", etc?



 Was that the work of "the Russians" plundering and enslaving others, or do you have some excuse for that, like Jews, Communists, "the cabal", etc?

I have experienced combat with paratroop units in a number of countries, 1965-1993 then consultant for various alphabet agencies 1995-2001. Never did we consider the people of any country we happened to be in the enemy. It was always the same, the government and their controllers are the bad guys.

 the Holodomor in Ukraine or the famines in Kazakhstan in the early 1900s?

As always there will be a multitude of agendas going at the same time, land, religions, hatred, power. No we were not briefed
  on their history, because we were not deployed there.

I am not sure where I fit into the excuse business, most events are black and white, making excuses was a career ender, we called it like we experienced it. One of the best resources we had going for us, access to a many great libraries. 

And specifically the Irish persecution went on for hundreds of years. Their were so many outsiders coming and going for thousands of years, it is hard to keep up with all the hatred.


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## Will Scarlet (Nov 6, 2021)

matematik said:


> It seems to me a lot of people are very keen on throwing around accusations about "the Brits" and scapegoating them for all the world's ills, but not so bold in accusing other peoples.



If you knew anything worth knowing about British history you would understand that the scapegoating effect was part of the plan by those who have been controlling 'Great' Britain for centuries. This is also true of other empire building nations like Spain with its 'Legenda Negra'.

Your constant sensitivity to and defence of the indefensible is really quite annoying, not to mention its disruptive effect on many threads. Most people here are savvy enough to understand that the sins of the kabal are *not *the sins of their citizens and imo, that's also something that stolenhistory should be demonstrating.

I've come across the same attitude many times in the past, as trying to shift the blame or deflect it by counter accusations is part of human nature, but one we should have grown out of by now and left in the school playground. Frankly, whenever I see it in my own countrymen it makes me ashamed to be English.


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## trismegistus (Nov 6, 2021)

If we're going to try and suss out Irish history more time should be spent analyzing exactly why they had such a connection with the American southeast.

Savannah Georgia: Fire or Faux?

https://digitalcommons.georgiasouthern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1111&context=honors-theses
Abstract:


> Between the years of 1812-1880, the Savannah Irish created and maintained an identity based on the Irish ideologies of separatism, independence, and egalitarianism. Through an analysis of Hibernian Society archival toasts and semi-structured interviews, the social, economic,  and  political  institutions  which  influenced the  Savannah-Irish culture  emerged.  While  many  aspects  of  Irish  life  in  Savannah  are  left  to be  explored,  this  research  serves  to  illuminate  the  creation  of  identity  in the public space between Savannah and the Irish through social, economic, and political means.



Irish History in Savannah, Georgia

Robert Sepehr has done a decent amount of interesting research into similar topics:


_View: https://youtu.be/KdN1-_oW00k_


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## dreamtime (Nov 6, 2021)

matematik said:


> but I thought Stolen History forum members were supposed to be above just automatically believing the official narrative of anything?



we are also above automatically rejecting it


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## pispascana (Dec 30, 2021)

matematik said:


> I guess you will resent me saying it, but it has always seemed to me that the British are under particular attack by the "powers that be". Even with this current "pandemic" a disproportionate amount of the focus seems to be on Britain, like how the British are being vaccinated at a much faster rate than anywhere else in Europe, and how many of the "new strains" are being supposedly discovered in Britain and many countries are blaming their pandemics on the "British/English strain", and also all the controversy over AstraZeneca, the so called "British vaccine".
> 
> Maybe I am being overly Anglo-centric and not seeing the bigger picture, but the words "Britain" and "England" do seem to appear an awful lot in things related to this "pandemic". Britain is obviously the seat of the royal family and also City of London, so arguably the de facto seat of the NWO, so perhaps that is an explanation for why the "powers that be" would have an interest in asserting spiritual control over the population of this country?
> 
> Also, I've noticed that in Spain many houses have these decorative iron bars on the windows, especially in more rural areas. I always assumed that it was just an old fashioned form of security, but having read your post I wonder now whether the origin of the practice is more spiritual?


Hello Matematik
Your comment is quite relevant to a post I made less than an hour ago in the Scottish History thread. The post features links to the work of William Comyns Beaumont who wrote a few books last century where he maintains that Constantine and his co-conspirators at Nicea relocated Biblical events in a desert area in the middle of nowhere and that the green and verdant Biblical lands were in fact Britain. I drove round the coast this summer. Devon, Cornwall, Somerset, South Wales, you can feel it, here are some of the photos posted at my own website Do Pictures Speak 1000 words & St David's Head
The cherry on the cake for you here so to speak, CB maintains that Edinburgh is the true Jerusalem, Queen's husband was Duke of Edinburgh. So he also concludes that Jesus was crucified in an area on the western outskirts of the city near the local madhouse until it closed in 1999. Here are links to two of his great works.

*WILLIAM COMYNS BEAUMONT, The Great Deception*
*WILLIAM COMYNS BEAUMONT, Britain – The Key to World History*
There is also *David Alan Ritchie – We the Skythians *written more recently, agrees with much of WCB'S conclusions and adds more.

Are you familiar with the music 'Jerusalem' by William Blake, just a coincidence!

I knew Scotland well but it was just last summer that I finally saw England and Wales - such an island!


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## 6079SmithW (Dec 30, 2021)

There are many places in Wales with biblical names. They are on the oldest maps we can find. 

I used to think that the Welsh (ie the remnant of true Britons) had named them after the biblical sites in the middle East. 

Starting to wonder if the sites in the middle East weren't named after the originals in Britain


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## dreamtime (May 10, 2022)

Based on this post by @Bluestorm, I collected a couple interesting aspects about the destruction of Four Courts in Dublin in 1922.

If this explosion was merely an accident, it certainly helped to get rid of any historical evidence favoring a more Irish-centric view of the conflict between Ireland and the Crown.

During the Irish Civil War in 1922, there was an explosion in the Four Courts building complex, "the likes of which Dublin had never seen before, after which most of the buildings, including the Public Records Office, were destroyed by fire." (Irish Times)

When Dublin’s Four Courts went up in flames on June 30th, 1922, seven centuries of Ireland’s historical and genealogical records, stored in a magnificent six-story Victorian archive building known as the Record Treasury, were lost. In one afternoon, hundreds of thousands of English Government records concerning Ireland, dating back to the 13th century, were destroyed - seemingly forever. - Trinity recreates Ireland’s history lost in 1922 fire | IrishCentral.com​
​



_"The huge explosion at the Four Courts during the Irish Civil War in 1922."_​
​Two days into the Civil War, a massive explosion destroyed the Public Records Office attached to Dublin’s Four Courts and with it hundreds of years of documented history.​​The census records for the whole of the 19th century going back to the first in 1821 were incinerated. Chancery records, detailing British rule in Ireland going back to the 14th century and grants of land by the crown, were also destroyed along with thousands of wills and title deeds.​​The records of various chief secretaries to Ireland and centuries of Church of Ireland parish registers vanished in the fire.​​The list of documents which were stored in the office’s record treasury departments are contained in a single manuscript which is 300 pages long and dates back seven centuries. - Retrieval of Irish archive lost in 1922 fire ‘astounding’, historian says​

*What was lost? *​​Apart from a few fragments, the Irish Censuses of 1821, 1831, 1841, and 1851 were burned in the Public Records Office. So, too, were just over half of all the Anglican Church of Ireland registers deposited there following the dis-establishment of the state church in 1869. In addition, the majority of wills and testamentary records that had been proved in Ireland were reduced to ashes (although transcripts of many testamentary records survive). All pre-1900 documents from the legal courts were lost, as were local government records for the same period. - The fire that destroyed all Irish records - the myth and the reality​




_"_The attack by the National Army on an anti-Treaty force entrenched in the Four Courts was one of the most important events in modern Irish history, if not the most important. The Four Courts has been, since its completion in the early 19th century, a significant physical presence along the Liffey quays in Dublin, and because fighting during the first hours of the Civil War was mainly confined to the area immediately surrounding the complex, the battle drew large crowds of spectators, and the action was comprehensively recorded in newsprint, photographs and even newsreel film. In spite of this it is clear, from some accounts of the battle, that the authors had little or no knowledge of the physical nature of the buildings in the Four Courts complex, their external and internal layouts and indeed, something as simple as the number of buildings in the courts complex.​​In 1922, as today, the complex contained four distinct buildings, the Four Courts, the Public Records Office, the north block and the Land Registry Office. Dorothy McArdle, who was in Dublin at the time of the battle, suggested her lack of understanding of the complex in her account of the battle, by referring to the Four Courts as “the building”. Recent publications, including the prestigious Atlas of the Irish Revolution, have maps describing the complex which fail to show one of the four buildings on the site, the Land Registry Office. Although the smallest of the buildings on the campus, it protected much of the north block, which the anti-Treaty garrison had made their headquarters and where they stored their explosives, from observation and gunfire from the National Army-occupied Bridewell Police Station.​​It is difficult to understand how any accurate analysis of the battle that took place over those three fateful days in June 1922 could be carried out without such knowledge. - What really happened in the Four Courts at the start of the Civil War​





Your browser is not able to display this video.


Ireland Heals Her Wounds (1925).

"The Four Courts - almost destroyed by shellfire in Republican outbreak - are now almost restored.​​Remember those desperate days just 3 years ago?​​Today, Dublin's most imposing building rises like a phoenix from the ashes."​

Meanwhile, the authentic original Irish documents have been replaced with "credible" substitute documents from British records:

"Project Circle" is

"a reconstruction of these lost chancery rolls based on substitute sources located in various repositories in the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, England and the USA. Many of these substitute sources are found in England because the Dublin administration in the late Middle Ages was closely supervised by its ‘mother’ administration at Westminster." - Trinity Historians Reconstruct Thousands of Medieval Documents Bombed in the Four Courts in the Civil War​
The medieval Irish Chancery was the secretariat of the kings and queens of England, responsible for issuing royal letters under the Great Seal of Ireland. The lord chancellor of Ireland was the keeper of this Great Seal, which authenticated documents on behalf of the crown. The chancery issued legal documents relating primarily to property rights, grants of land, appointments to office, pardons, and fines. Outgoing letters were also recorded by chancery clerks, who copied the text onto long rolls of parchment known as the chancery rolls. The chancery rolls suffered loss, damage, and neglect over time through multiple fires and poor storage conditions in Dublin Castle. In 1810, the Irish Records Commission was established to survey the surviving rolls and produce a calendar of the medieval records up to the year 1600. By 1816, the rolls were moved to the Record Tower of Dublin Castle and the IRC had produced this remarkable report on the chancery rolls.  - Ghost Records: A 19th-century manuscript copy of lost chancery rolls​​In this context, here's an interesting quote from a text about the Maunder Minimum and the Little Ice Age:

In the 1640’s and 1650’s, a civil war griped the British Empire. This war combined with the effects of a series of failed harvest that led to famines, and plague epidemics killed approximately a quarter of a million people in England, Scotland and Wales or 7% of the population. *The population in Ireland alone fell by 20%. In 1655, it was recorded that ‘a man might travel twenty or thirty miles [in Ireland] and not see a living creature’ except for ‘very aged men with women and children’ whose skin was ‘black like an oven because of the terrible famine.’* It produced in Scotland a famine of which ‘the lyke had never beine seine in this kingdome heretofor, since it was a natione.’​
https://nextgrandminimum.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/little_ice_age_theory.pdf

The above text also has a reference to flooded first floors:

_In 1687, there was a great flood in Dublin, Ireland. The lower part of the city was underwater up to the first floor and boats plied in the streets. There was also a great estuary flood in the River Severn in England. In the summer many of the rivers in England were flooded and many people drowned. When the fruit ripened on the trees, great swarms of gnats and insects appeared._​


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