# Alphabetic "Evolution"



## OfTheBrave (Apr 26, 2021)

Ok, bear with me here as this is an incomplete thought.

So I'm thinking about other languages and trying to figure out how some letters can be SO SIMILAR, as in, exactly the same in shape, but they are Rotated 90 degrees or 180 degrees, or flipped horizontally...

See Cyrillic:  э -  ч -  и 
Looks like: e - h - N to me (though it's not quite that straight forward, as I've found)

If you're like me, upon seeing these similarities,
You may wonder... "Now what on earth could have led to us sharing these alphabetic characters and having them rotate like this?"
and also... "Is it possible that these letters are connected in more than just appearance?"
you ponder... "Could this have been done intentionally or just drifted over time?  (as the following shows)



You gasp... "Wait, *what if it was *_*the method they were copied using*_* which ultimately changed their orientation?*

What I mean is this.
Say you have a clay or metal tablet with writing.
you ink it up to copy it.
You set it down on the blank slate and...



All your letters are backwards.
Not only that, but all your sentences are backwards so now it has to be read backwards.

Could this have served to further divide us from our history and writings of the time?
I know I've seen discussion about the printing press being in use long before they admit having it.

I've often felt that, if our true timetable for humanity is much shorter than we think it is, our languages now are far to disparate for simple distance to explain the massive linguistic changes while maintaining a similarity in the individual letters across the various continents.

I'm not 100% on this yet but my question is essentially the following.
*How many letters share vocal characteristics while appearing similar?(despite their orientation)*
_and_
*When did these changes happen?*
_and_
*Why did it happen? (intentional/accidental)*

I started with Cyrillic as an example but I _know_ I've seen other languages (shockingly once some ancient japanese) which have letters/numbers sharing the form of our current English ones.

Here's a brief example of what I dug up tonight:

Cyrillic Цц  (Phonetically similar to our C makes a "ts" sound and also looks like the Latin Letter C turned Counter Clockwise.)

Cyrillic Дд (Phonetically same as our "D" and also looks like the Latin Letter D turned Counter Clockwise and stylized.  *S*_*ee below.*_)

Cyrillic Чч (Phonetically pronounced "ch" but reminds me of certain yiddish words which start in the throat, like "chutzpa" (which sounds like an H to me. It also looks like the lowercase Latin letter h flipped 180)

Cyrillic Ии (Phonetically can be used the same a our "I" pronounced as "ee" (like in taxi or thief) and it may be a stretch, but could be the Latin letter I turned Counter Clockwise and stylized)

Cyrillic Йй (Phonetically "ee" and treated in relation to И the same way we use I and J in (old) English (I as a vowel and J as a consonant)
See Jesus( modern english) = Jesus (spanish) = Iesa ), with moving only the far left leg, could easily be a J on it's side. *See Below*)




_Side note: After writing *"Phonetically"* that many times it has me wondering if the people practicing this kind of language trickery were *Phoenetic-Allies *_
(see Phoenician = Venetian)

That's all I've got for now, let me know what you think about these similarities.





> Note: This OP was recovered from the Sh.org archive.





> Note: Archived Sh.org replies to this OP are included in this thread.


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## Whitewave (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: whitewaveDate: 2020-07-16 16:50:44Reaction Score: 5


Interesting that the letter "t/T" stays the same in all forms and unchanged for over 3000 years. It's the only letter that does.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: esgee1Date: 2020-07-16 19:05:36Reaction Score: 2




whitewave said:


> Interesting that the letter "t/T" stays the same in all forms and unchanged for over 3000 years. It's the only letter that does.


If going by ofthebrave’s Idea of copying causes letters to become backwards, then the letter T is always oriented the same forwards or backwards.

The evolution of language fascinates me. Thanks for sharing your insight ofthebrave. Cheers!


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## Huaqero (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: HuaqeroDate: 2020-07-16 19:51:39Reaction Score: 7


I remember how annoying was learning the hand-written style of the Russian alphabet.
_Especially these two, their 'B' and their 'D'._
Why would they have replaced the small 'b' with a letter that is identical to the small greek 'delta'='d'
and the small 'd' with a 'g' ?


However, with that rotating and mirroring way of approach it makes more sense !
If someone had received _movable letters for printing_ but messed the b's and d's, we would get this result:

A greek small 'delta' in the place of the small *'b'*
and a greek small 'beta' , _rotated 180deg (which looks like a 'g'),_ instead of a small *'d'* !

 
So, our friend received the box with the movable greek letters, messed the b's and d's and based the hand-written form on this mess.

Now, about the russian 'Tt' which looks like an 'm', I would say that we have to blame ... vodka    :


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## Deleted member 65 (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: PrincepAugusDate: 2020-07-16 23:02:19Reaction Score: 8


I think this is what the Bible means with the Tower of Babylon. Scrambling the languages just like this.


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## Whitewave (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: whitewaveDate: 2020-07-17 01:26:02Reaction Score: 3




esgee1 said:


> If going by ofthebrave’s Idea of copying causes letters to become backwards, then the letter T is always oriented the same forwards or backwards.
> 
> The evolution of language fascinates me. Thanks for sharing your insight ofthebrave. Cheers!


The letter "t" on its side= x. 

Dyslexic drunken typesetters. That actually makes a certain amount of sense.


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## Septimus (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: SeptimusDate: 2020-07-17 01:46:43Reaction Score: 5




Huaqero said:


> So, our friend received the box with the movable greek letters, messed the b's and d's and based the hand-written form on this mess.


What's interesting is all three names for father:

baba
dada
papa
They have this Babel phenomenon. The *b*, *d*, and *p* characters are just rotations and/or inversion of the same character.


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## OfTheBrave (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: OfTheBraveDate: 2020-07-17 03:18:56Reaction Score: 8


I appreciate everyone's replies and thoughts on the matter.

I think the best way forward, for me at least, would be to go all the way back to the "proto" versions of these languages and match them up in this way. In some cases that might not be needed but for the full scope and picture of how these changes may have unfolded, I think it may be necessary. I hope it's not a fool's errand, but it's hard to tell when first striking out in a new direction which way is the way of providence.
Now in my third decade, I tend to trust my instincts more and more to reveal the way.

For instance, last night I basically had it all typed up before I began to fact check what my sub conscience was driving at.
Maybe that isn't the scholarly or scientific way, but it all just seemed to fall into place as I laid it out.
As I referenced and fact checked myself it only lent more and more credence to what I had rushed on to the page..
and here we are.

Glad you liked it.
I really think that this forum may be the place where things in the past start to crystallize for us all.

Good luck out there in the desert of the real.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: RecognitionDate: 2020-07-18 11:12:08Reaction Score: 1


“As above, so below” matches the idea of flipped letters. Brilliant research, _@OfTheBrave_


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## Mick Harper (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: Mick HarperDate: 2020-07-18 14:40:47Reaction Score: 1


When trying to trace out who comes before whom, as Lenin might have put it, one way is to examine how closely 'your' alphabet comes to your language's needs. So, if we notice that Italian is pretty much phonetic we might conclude that the Latin alphabet was designed by or for them. But even they have their problems. Ciao!  But when some other bunch of dudes are forced to use the same alphabet for their language they have to run a whole bunch of letters together. Chow. 

But at least this is susceptible to some direct observation and real-time number crunching, unlike linguists with their proto-this and archaic-that, and what-sounds-like-what, and take away the first number you thought of, in order to produce -- guess what? -- the version of history they were taught in school, so it must be true.


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## OfTheBrave (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: OfTheBraveDate: 2020-07-22 16:12:46Reaction Score: 2




Recognition said:


> “As above, so below” matches the idea of flipped letters. Brilliant research, _@OfTheBrave_


You know, I had the same notion.

Here’s another which directly pertains to that.


GAMMA
3rd letter of the Greek alphabet (I want to address the alleged order of letters in alphabets in a later post)

Has allegedly the same form and meaning as the Phoenician and Hebrew GIMEL

phonetically a “G” sound

Gamma‘s modern meaning is loosely defined as “change“. This is how it is used in mathematics.
Also, I’ve seen reference (can‘t find it atm) for it originally meaning Giving and Taking (Beginning and ending maybe?)
You’ll see why that makes sense in a moment.

“G“ or GAMMA was classically viewed as the “root note” in a musical scale
(G)-A-B-C-D-E-F-G

So here we can see this ”give and take” or “beginning and ending” or “change” in action, represented by Gamma, GIMEL or just “G”, which has been preserved in music.



You can see it there at the very bottom as “terra” and at the very center of the monochord (next to the sun symbol) all brought in tune by the hand of god In this Pythagorean depiction.

(side note, I find it interesting that the “C” note is here represented by the symbol for the moon.. Also, just noticed the possible connection between the note “D”, the symbol for mercury and the D-evil “horns“.. Hmm.. _Big think_)

Anyhow,
In western music there are 13 notes, not 12, as commonly repeated.
7 whole steps, 5 half steps
and then the “1”. The octave
which stands apart.
It is the ”change” or transition from one level to the next.
or you might say...
The beginning, and the end.

::Back to the point which I will try not to belabor::

When you or I look at this  Γ we think “L”

But in essence it is _THE_ “L”
it represents the beginning and end. You might say, the alpha and omega.

It is, to my mind, the “L“ of “HIM”.
The L o’ him
The Elohim
The big G-D or GOD
the G-rand designer.

I’ll keep posting these as they occur to me, but do let me know on a scale of 1-10 just how crazy all this sounds!

(edited for formatting)


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## Septimus (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: SeptimusDate: 2020-07-22 20:06:29Reaction Score: 0




OfTheBrave said:


> You know, I had the same notion.
> 
> Here’s another which directly pertains to that.
> View attachment 50012
> ...


Wow, incredible revelations _@OfTheBrave_ ! You are connecting all the dots.

Let's apply your model to chakras.

G F E D C B A representing a top down from the crown to root chakra.
G : Crown

*F : Pineal / Third Eye*



F clef looks like the pineal gland with two eyes from a top down view of the human head. The two vertical dots on the right being our two physical eyes. The spiral representing our third eye inside our brain.

*G-D, God, Our Higher Self*
Like _@OfTheBrave_ said, G-D being God. This is our top half of our chakras representing our higher self. Crown, Pineal, Throat, Heart.

*D-G, D-L, Devil, Our Lower Self*
Our bottom half chakras:
D : Heart
C : Solar Plexus
B : Sacral
A : Root
G / L : H*ell *

_@OfTheBrave_ said G is L. *G* is the ground. *L* is land. *G/L* is gravel (grav-el, grav-hell, grave-l). So DCBA(hidden G) could represent the DEVIL or our base self.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: DaemonApophiDate: 2020-07-26 10:17:15Reaction Score: 1




OfTheBrave said:


> Ok, bear with me here as this is an incomplete thought.
> 
> So I'm thinking about other languages and trying to figure out how some letters can be SO SIMILAR, as in, exactly the same in shape, but they are Rotated 90 degrees or 180 degrees, or flipped horizontally...
> 
> ...


Very interesting read. Thanks for sharing.

I'm not sure if this is related. But I've always wondered when some cultures read their books the complete opposite way to how we do in west. Take Japanease manga or the Quran.


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## feralimal (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: FeralimalDate: 2020-07-27 10:08:39Reaction Score: 2


I've heard that Greek and Arabic alphabets also work in a similar way, that Greek is based on Arabic, but they are a 90 degree turn.  I have tried to compare the 2, but I couldn't make much headway with it.

Its possible the change is down to drunken typographers or printers.  However, there is another possibility - that it was a simple but intentional code to confuse and obfuscate.  I mean, when I look at Arabic it seems impossible, but if there is a simple code to it, that would be a different thing.

Also, I have a similar-ish observation but with numbers - see below:


I think all the single numbers are paired, sort of.


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## OfTheBrave (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: OfTheBraveDate: 2020-07-27 17:23:48Reaction Score: 6




DaemonApophi said:


> Very interesting read. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> I'm not sure if this is related. But I've always wondered when some cultures read their books the complete opposite way to how we do in west. Take Japanease manga or the Quran.


Yeah, I guess part of what I'm thinking is, after going far enough back, are the languages more connected than we're led to believe?
Check it out.

I stumbled across the "proto" japanese language bearing a striking resemblance to hebrew and other languages a while back. While this isn't the file I was looking for, it still shows an uncanny relationship.

My question about the reading/writing orientation is whether or not this was done intentionally or accidentally.


Feralimal said:


> I've heard that Greek and Arabic alphabets also work in a similar way, that Greek is based on Arabic, but they are a 90 degree turn.  I have tried to compare the 2, but I couldn't make much headway with it.
> 
> Its possible the change is down to drunken typographers or printers.  However, there is another possibility - that it was a simple but intentional code to confuse and obfuscate.  I mean, when I look at Arabic it seems impossible, but if there is a simple code to it, that would be a different thing.
> 
> ...


Definitely going to require some research to fully explore the relationships between these alphabets. All I hope is that others will take the concept and run with it because for 1 person it is a daunting task.

The relationship between numbers you brought up has always puzzled me. I'm sure you've seen this, but check it out if you haven't.

There exists a pattern to the numbers and their values which I (and other kids apparently) picked up on when I was younger. It took seeing a ted talk discussing this for it to fully be fleshed out for me though.
I like your thought that they may have been paired somehow but I'd have to look at it more closely than I have.
I'm not 100% convinced that we're using the numbers per their original denominations anyhow.

There is a good graph on wikipedia where you can see the numbers 1-9 for most of the major regions laid out. Hindu-Arabic Numerals.

To my original post's point though, you can plainly see the 90 degree turn happening in the transition between arabic to european numbering happening above.
Example: the 2 and 3 columns for arabic and east arabic appear to be clockwise rotations of european numerals (or vice versa)

I find it hard to reconcile the following issues with these numerical translations though:

Forgot to circle it but the 5=0 thing is weird as well.
How is it that both languages share the same symbols but have them set to different values?
I don't remember where it was that I read (maybe Fomenko) that there somehow was an issue with the numbers 5 & 6 in history and that they possibly flipped values at some point.
I've noticed some discrepancies since hearing that, though I can't quite parse what is going on.

Just to add to the confusion there's the fact that originally the latin alphabet (which we use today) had letters doubling as number just like the hebrew alphabet still does. Didn't know that? Thought it was all "roman numerals"?
Guess again.

Just a thought to add to my above post about* GAMMA/GIMEL*, looks like both of these letters have a *value of 3.*
As in, the *Holy Trinity*

This and the other connections add up to be a but much for a coincidence, in my eyes at least.
Below is the hebrew alpha-numerical-bet


Not sure where this thread will end up but I'm glad to keep theorizing on these oddities and more.


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## feralimal (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: FeralimalDate: 2020-07-27 18:58:32Reaction Score: 2


I love the observations you are making and have found 

And no, I didn't know about the number intersections thing you posted.  And obviously 0 fits into the pattern although it isn't shown.



OfTheBrave said:


> I'm not 100% convinced that we're using the numbers per their original denominations anyhow.


Hey - you can see that thing about the arabic-indic being twisted 90 degrees for # 2 + 3!  (and maybe 7)

Personally, I think this is all coded.  Or perhaps it was all coded, and then things moved on over time.


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## Worsaae (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: WorsaaeDate: 2020-07-27 21:53:19Reaction Score: 2




OfTheBrave said:


> I'm not 100% convinced that we're using the numbers per their original denominations anyhow.
> View attachment 50453


For the devanagari the numbers:  
4 goes to 5 (like the roman V)
5 goes to 4
6 goes to 8
7 goes to 6 (rotated)
8 goes to 7 (rotated)


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: RecognitionDate: 2020-07-27 23:30:52Reaction Score: 1


Your research is so mindblowing!!! I have always thought of A as resembling the pyramid and capstone.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: RecognitionDate: 2020-08-07 14:22:39Reaction Score: 1


This post by _@Mabzynn_ got me thinking: Cynocephali: The Dog-Headed Men

In the pages he posted, we see that in all the words, B is in the place of D. 

I know that for a period of time V existed in the place of U.

There are many writings that place F instead of S.

What do you think, guys? I’m wondering if we could kind of map out when each of these letters switches, and maybe see if the letter switch/flip lines up with reset events?


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: NowhereManDate: 2020-08-08 01:15:21Reaction Score: 1


Found this in my archive, hope it helps:



The Saxon-Alphabet, last page of John Fortescue's The Difference between an Absolute and Limited Monarchy (1st ed., 1714)


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## OfTheBrave (Apr 27, 2021)

Wow, so glad the mods were able to resurrect this thread. 
When I have time I will definitely resume my research on this subject.


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## Will Scarlet (Apr 27, 2021)

It may be worth considering that many 'languages' were created by cloistered monks - particularly Cyrillic. The idea was to monopolise all written communication by producing what was effectively a cipher that only they could translate. Not only was this very profitable, but also gave them intelligence they could use to their advantage.


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## E.Bearclaw (Apr 27, 2021)

It may be a bit out there, and it is a thought rather than a fully formed idea, but... riffing from t being the same each revolution, and the comment already made of 'as above, so below',

another thing that revolves over time is the sky, observably, the night sky. See image of the Big Dipper below, it is quite reminiscent of the T. And also, happens to be the only constellation, that when rotated 90 degrees will not change.






I can also see the aforementioned D character being rotated 90 degrees. I am postulating a possible relationship between characters and the night sky, or more accurately perhaps the cosmic clock.

I think an interesting natural progression of this idea would be whether language is a code to infuse the relevant cosmic tropes of the astronomical age into the collective consciousness.


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