# The Church Inquisition did not persecute people, but counterfeit coins



## dreamtime (Jul 18, 2021)

_(Based on this Russian article, with some minor changes, first found __here_. Also available in our german forum_)_





_The Catholic Church readily supports stories about the horrors of the Inquisition and even publicly repents to hide its main secret from the people - the pursuit of money._​
What kind of witches did the Inqiusition really persecute?

The well-known Russian researcher Igor Grek, author of the "Logistic Theory of Civilization", was always amazed at the absurdity of the Inquisition's actions. Why would the Vatican burn thousands of women all over Europe on an obviously far-fetched pretext? There is no economic or political benefit to be derived from this, and for the Catholic Church such behavior was unacceptable even in the Dark Ages.

He found a sensational answer by deciphering the Inquisition's instructions for identifying "witches."

Inquisitors, in direct translation from Latin, were essentially investigators from the central apparatus of the Church who went on official business, investigated cases of forgery, gathered evidence against those guilty of forgery (the so-called "witch accomplices"), and handed them over to the local court for sentencing ... They themselves did not pass sentences or carry out executions.

Unlike modern investigators, who themselves do not have the right to give expert opinions (this is done by an appropriate expert), inquisitors simultaneously performed the role of investigators and were highly qualified experts for their time.

The books for inquisitors "on witches" contained sufficiently reasonable recommendations on investigative techniques and tactics in terms of the legislation of the time, and many recommendations have not lost their relevance even today.

But a fog of mystery was laid over the sections of investigative technique and expertise for the sake of secrecy, hence the mystical perception. The description of testing, examining, examining coins was slightly veiled, which worked perfectly, and now the mystical "examination of the witch" is taken "at face value" (I apologize for the unintentional pun).

Therefore, from the whole range of information about the "witch hunts", we will first look at one small but significant aspect - that of the "witch test" - that is, the testing of a suspect coin for authenticity.

When examining coins made of precious metals, in addition to the external signs of authenticity, it is extremely important to determine the fineness and weight of the precious metal. We will compare, where appropriate, the mystical interpretation of the "witch test" with the methods of establishing a sample of precious metals according to any "Assayer's Handbook".



 

 


_Images of alleged witch burnings_​
The Instructions for the Investigative Apparatus of the Holy See contain reasonable recommendations on investigative technique, entirely in line with the legislation of the time, and many of them have not lost their relevance even today. However, the sections dealing with the expert opinion to determine the authenticity of "witches" seem downright delusional. The Middle Ages were dark, of course, but not as idiotic as they might seem if you take everything written at face value. The real goals of the Inquisition were economic in nature. And the fight against heresy was in many ways a cover, just as "democratic values" are now for U.S. bombings around the world.

The truth in all its simplicity was revealed to Igor Grek when he saw that the Inquisition's instructions to identify the "witch" were completely consistent with the methods of determining the sample of precious metals according to the Assayer's Guide. And if you replace the word "witch" with "counterfeit coin" in the records of the Inquisition, then everything fits. Let's compare and then we will understand what was burned at the stake all over Europe.

Test with red-hot iron (iron test)​


_Testing a witch with red-hot iron, relief from Bamberg Cathedral (Germany)_​Misconception:

"The iron test is characteristic only of the early Middle Ages. It was necessary not to burn oneself, to step barefoot on hot plowshares or, without hurting the palm, to hold a red-hot iron rod for several minutes. The most amazing thing is that in the Middle Ages it was believed that God would protect the innocent in such a situation (and even gave legendary examples of it). In the era of mass witch hunts, this test was not applied. Doubts about its accuracy were raised by the authors of the Witch Hammer, whereupon it gradually faded into irrelevance."

How it really was:

The reference to "red-hot iron" means the observance of the temperature regime, the color of heat , i.e. the color of the glow of the metal depending on the heating temperature. For iron, a color change from dark cherry red to bright red means a temperature range from 700 to 900 °C.

Red-hot iron is good in that its color makes it possible to standardize the heating temperature of the coins studied, thus ensuring the stability of the results. In addition to melting, the color change of the metal was important.

From Brockhaus: _"... Polybios, who lived in the 2nd cent. BC, mentions the testing of silver by fire, i.e. by changing its color by annealing. The same method is given by Pliny. In Russia, sampling of gold and silver was already known in the pre-Petrine era. The trade book says that Russian merchants tested gold "in fire ..."."_

A coin of pure silver does not melt in this test, but "it will survive a few minutes without damage," since iron heated to a bright red color has a temperature of 830-900°С, and pure silver melts only at a temperature of 960°С. All alloys with silver content below 91 percent start melting at the same temperature - 779°С.

The conclusion was as follows: If the coin did not change color when heated with red-hot iron for several minutes, "did not burn", did not melt, then it is genuine, made of pure silver without impurities.

Pricking and scratch tests​



_In the old engraving shown, which depicts the scene of "testing the witch with needles", there are 15 needles on the table, the 16th in the expert's hand, from which it can be concluded that the silver coin was tested (16-lot scale)_​The writing below the engraving translates from German to mean something like, "Testing with needles is one of the most important ways to test a witch." We pay special attention to the last word _Hexenprobe_, where the German word "Hexe" is now translated as "Witch". Is it just coincidental that Hexe means "hexadecimal" in German? Looks like the witches owned mostly silver....



 


_*left*: Testing needles. These are the ones they used to pierce the coin to check its authenticity. From them comes the story about the search for birthmarks on witches. *right*: A set of modern gold testing needles from the factory in Tula._​Assay needles in Western Europe appeared around the 14th century. Silver was divided into 16 lots, gold first by 12, then by 24, i.e. the number of assay needles required in a complete set depends on the gradations of the tests used.

Misconception:

In England and Germany, in the Netherlands and in France, a special way of searching for witches has become firmly established - the test with a needle. It is known that farmers brand their cattle. Why shouldn't the devil stigmatize his victims as a sign of vassalage? It seemed quite logical to people.

It was believed that the devil marks any witch possessed by him with his mark. So the judges were looking for this mark, called "witch mark". To find it, the accused had her head and body shaved. If only suspicious spots on the skin had to be found, e.g. age spots or liver spots, the executioner pricked them with a needle.

Of course, this stigma can be invisible, but that is why there are specialists to find the "sign of the devil" even under the immaculately smooth skin. The place where the devil held his claw becomes insensitive to pain and does not bleed when injected. If the suspect did not feel pain or bleed, it was considered proven that it was indeed a "witch mark."


What it was really like:

In the "Assayer's Guide," this mystical interpretation corresponds to the ancient method, still widely used today, of using assay needles to determine the sample of objects made of precious metals. They consist of gold, silver and copper of a certain composition, i.e. they are reference samples of the precious metal sample.

The simplest application of assay needles is scratching the surface of the test object. The higher quality alloy needle is softer and leaves no marks. Assay needles are made of gold and copper (or silver and copper) of a certain composition, i.e. they are reference samples of a precious metal sample.

Therefore, the mystical expressions "felt no pain" and "came out no blood" mean that the assay needle of the sample leaves no scratch. This means that the alloy of the test coin is harder due to the higher content of other metals.




_The direct heir of the "Inquisitio Haereticae Pravitatis Sanctum Officium", i.e. the Inquisition, is today the "Institute for the Works of Religion". This is the scientific name of the Vatican Bank, where they also hunt for "witches_​
Tear Test​
Misconception:

The "tear test" was also considered an infallible means of identifying a witch. In the "Witchhammer," (_Malleus Maleficarum_) this test was recommended to judges as particularly reliable. It was believed that witches could not shed tears: A woman who did not cry even under torture was most likely a witch.

How it really was:

In the assayer's manual, this is called a "drop test," "drop method," or "wet test," meaning it involves a sample of a precious metal with special reagents.

"A drop of reagent is applied to the coin and based on the color of the stain, the gold content is inferred. The color of the reaction products, as it is said in a manual on jewelry, the assayer compares only "with his own feeling," so that the error can reach 30 or more sample units."

"Another method widely used today in test inspection work is the use of a "test stone," which is an indicator method whose results depend largely on the experience and qualifications of the tester. This method is based on color comparison. Strips are applied to the "test stone" (special siliceous slate) using the test specimen and test needles made of reference alloys. They are exposed to test reagents. In this case, on some microsections of the strips the metal dissolves and on others the assay reagent precipitates. Thus, if such a reagent is a solution of chlorine-hydrochloric acid (chlorine gold), finely dispersed brown gold will precipitate. Depending on the area ratio of the ground surfaces of gold, silver and copper in the alloy, the corrosion currents change, i.e. the amount of deposited metal and the color intensity of the band of this alloy. When comparing the color at the reaction sites between the bands and the reagents, it is concluded that the alloy of the product of such and such assay needle is similar."

"There is also a "wet test" - a test of the silver content in the alloy, which consists of separating silver from a nitric acid solution with a titrated solution of sodium chloride. This method was probably adopted by the Arabs and spread to Europe in the 13th century."

Probably the "tear sample" in the history of witchcraft refers to the "drip method" for determining coins.

Weighing Test​




_Weighing test of a 19th century witch on the scales in Oudewater (which incidentally houses the Witch Museum)._​
Misconception:

"Much more humane was the weighing test. Thus, in the Dutch town of Oudewater, anyone heavier than a certain limit was acquitted and even given a certificate confirming innocence of witchcraft. The percentage of those who were exposed was vanishingly small. Of course, the subjects were forced to strip down to their shirts and searched for hidden weights."

"In addition to the traditional water test, the suspects were weighed. Weighed so often that even King Charles V granted the city of Oudewater the right, as a privilege, to convert the city scales into special scales for witches. It was used continuously until 1693."

"Charles V donated a scale to the town of Oudewater for testing witches and defined a 50 kg barrier between Satan's servants and honest Christians."


How it really was:

Well, there is a "witch scale" in the Dutch town of Oudewater with the service of weighing women and issuing a "certificate," and the lower limit is 49.5 kg. Well, would tourists be as happy to go to the museum if it was still called as it used to be - simply "Oudewater scale", and there they talked not about witchcraft but about the history of measurement, the difficult way of standardization and unification, certification of weights and measures?

In the case of the Oudewater scales, the term "witch" also refers to trade weights. They were tested, branded and provided with a certificate of conformity. There was no fundamental difference between coins and weights, because coins, like copper coins in the USSR, were "counted" by weighing: one kopek is one gram, and five kopeks are five grams.


By the way, in the manuals of the inquisitors "witch" was called by the term "malefiz", which literally means "bad income". A weight too light, as well as a coin too light, is definitely malefiz. (Compare with the English word beneficence- good income; also fiscal).

If we take into account that in fact, instead of the lady, gold was weighed, then, of course, the "witch" should not weigh less than indicated. Otherwise, the coin will be recognized as a fake or rather a "witch".

Water Test​


 


_The engravings show that the tested "women" were supposedly lowered into the water. The "witch" floated on the water, and the honest woman sank_​Misconception:

"In many witch trials, one of the tasks of the investigations was to find certain signs by which witches could be easily recognized. One of the most popular tests was the "water test" (also called "bathing witch"). For this purpose, the executioner tied the arms and legs of the naked woman tightly, tied her body with a rope and pushed her into the water. If she remained on the surface of the water - and this happened in the majority of cases - then she was a witch because water, the element of purity, did not accept her. Or a witch bath was performed, that is, the woman was drowned ... and if her body returned to the surface of the water after drowning, it means that the water did not accept her - so she is a witch."

How it really was:

Even if you don't get into the physics, the conventional wisdom suffers from a lack of logic: if a woman thrown into the water floats to the top, then she is a witch and must be killed, but if she dies in the process (because she drowns), she isn't a witch. This is completely irrational and lacks any logic.

The reality is much more interesting: "water test" refers to the method of hydrostatic weighing, an amazingly elegant method of comparing the specific gravity of substances. Weighing on a balance with the same arm - "weighing test" - can only determine the equality of the weight of the tested coin with the reference coin. However, if these coins suspended on the balance beam are lowered into water, the balance is disturbed by impurities of lighter metals when the density of the test coin is lower, and the "damaged" "witch" coin floats up, the reference coin sinks.

For higher sensitivity, it is necessary that the coins do not lie on the balance, but are simply tied to the rocker arms with the thinnest possible thread. For this reason, all sources on witches specifically mention that they must be tied crosswise "with the right hand to the left leg and vice versa." A special mention of undressing a witch before the test means cleaning from dirt, foreign layers.

The sensitivity of this method is also extremely high because such a test of a precious metal sample is non-destructive. Unlike testing needles and drop samples. It has been adopted by museums, including the Hermitage, only with more sophisticated equipment, of course.





_Map of the intensity of witch hunts in Europe in the XVI century (according to modern official documents). As we can see, the most active persecution of witches was in Western Germany, Switzerland and France - the most developed regions. Well, let's compare at least Italy: in the progressive north it is much more active than in the backward agricultural south. If it were the backwardness in people's thinking, then it would look exactly the opposite._​
"Money is sacred"​
Now that one knows the true state of affairs, one can comprehend with understanding the old illustrations which the uneducated people have always mistaken for historical chronicles. For example, in the early 19th century, Europeans actually threw women into the water to test them for witchcraft, for which they were justly punished by the authorities.

According to Igor Grek, the Inquisition was a medieval analogue to Interpol, whose main task was to fight counterfeiters. Finally, for many centuries the Pope was an absolutist ruling European monarch, appointing kings and regulating the entire foreign and domestic policy of the continent. Financial control was one of the top priorities. We see this in the example of today's European Union.

The Holy Inquisition burned "witches" - but they were not women, they were counterfeit money!

Yes, and people were burned too. The secular authorities had to deal with "criminals", some of whom were convicted of making counterfeits and handed over to the courts by the Inquisition. But all their "witchcraft" consisted only in trying to defraud the Vatican financially, that is, to tamper with "sacred" things. And in this case the Pope is none other than the Godfather.


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## fabiorem (Jul 18, 2021)

Excellent article. I always found the witch hunts suspicious, specially when we put it side-by-side with the orgies that happened inside the church. So they burned women doing the same scandalous acts they did inside the church? It don't make any sense. 
Cities in the middle ages were filled with hookers and brothels, there was even sacred prostitution. It was only the reformation which put some order into the cloisters. The inquisition predates the reformation. 
Also, the cognate for witch in portuguese, "bruxa", is the name of the rope used to lighten a oil lamp. So "burn the witch" was actually light the oil, to burn the metal.


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## usselo (Jul 18, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> _(Based on this Russian article, with some minor changes, first found __here_. Also available in our german forum_)_
> the Inquisition was a medieval analogue to Interpol, whose main task was to fight counterfeiters. Finally, for many centuries the Pope was an absolutist ruling European monarch, appointing kings and regulating the entire foreign and domestic policy of the continent. Financial control was one of the top priorities. We see this in the example of today's European Union.​
> The Holy Inquisition burned "witches" - but they were not women, they were counterfeit money!
> Yes, and people were burned too. The secular authorities had to deal with "criminals", some of whom were convicted of making counterfeits and handed over to the courts by the Inquisition. But all their "witchcraft" consisted only in trying to defraud the Vatican financially, that is, to tamper with "sacred" things. And in this case the Pope is none other than the Godfather.


Great to see more Russian material appearing in a good translation.

In _An Account Of The Religious Houses Formerly Situated on the Eastern Side of the River Witham_, Rev George Oliver references abbeys and monasteries counterfeiting coins. Citing the first example that came to hand:

In Chapter V - Account of Tupholme Abbey, Oliver writes:



> a more serious charge was made, on another occasion, against one of its  Priors. He was accused of forgery, and counter feiting the current coin of the realm ; 8 with which he purchased corn and wine, and disposed of them at a considerable profit



In footnote 8 of that chapter:


> In the Notices des MSS. are more proofs of coining.



In Chapter XI - The Abbey of Tupholm and the Convent of Stixwold dissolved:



> the commissioners found no difficulty in procuring sufficient evidence for its condemnation ; for in this house were unfortunately discovered materials for coining and forgery ; the existence of which, notwithstanding it was alleged that they had been introduced by a former abbot, and had not been used for many years, constituted a heavy charge against the establishment



For context, Oliver was showing that what we today call 'monasticism' was a racket disguised as Christian religion, at that time called 'monarchism'. Presumably the ecclesiastical remnant was re-branded to 'monasticism' at some later time and today's blue blood/royalty is perhaps a remnant of the original 'monarchism'.

Oliver also refers - without detail - to the 'Inquisition' that tried to investigate these and many other crimes being run out of these institutions.


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## EUAFU (Jul 18, 2021)

Since the Enlightenment (the true dark age for real history knowledge), they've plagued everyone's mind with so many fables about the Inquisition that this article hit me like a blow for not believing all the pathetic hype about hunting for witches and yes for not imagining that it was about weights and measures.
Excellent post.


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## Starman (Jul 19, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> _(Based on this Russian article, with some minor changes, first found __here_. Also available in our german forum_)_
> 
> View attachment 11641
> _The Catholic Church readily supports stories about the horrors of the Inquisition and even publicly repents to hide its main secret from the people - the pursuit of money._​
> ...



Wow, great post, important information no doubt!  

I wonder why the great effort to hide the story of counterfeiting behind the story of witches??  Why put forth a false, macabre story of subjugating women to all sorts of tests?  Isn't that a sordid tale the church would rather not be associated with unless absolutely necessary?  Is it to divert attention from the church being the money purveyors, which is antithetical to Scripture?  Did the church get a double good result by putting fear in the hearts of a future populace while obscuring their past nefarious role in society?  

This is a good example of how our world and its narrative is formed by lies from "those most high."  Think of the effort over time to get artists to create all those engravings and paintings to tell this false narrative, and to scrub the real one.  It makes it easier to understand that all our history is a fabrication, especially the literary translations supposedly handed down from the ancient world.


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## air_dance (Jul 19, 2021)

This map impressed me.



An amazing map supporting my thesis Egypt = Gypsis (here). Roman law and Romani people (gypsies).
_Lex Duodecim Tabularum. _(450 BC) (slavery) (Italy) vs Codex Justinianus (529 AD) = Freedom = Balkan.
The Holy Roman Empire was established under Roman Balkan law.
In the beginning, they were deceived by Slave (Italian) Roman law and paid the price for it.
Roman law that works in Bulgaria, Turkey and Greece. During the Holy Roman Empire it spread to America. The road is: Balkans - Germany - USA. The price of being free was paid by the Germans. But the highest price was paid in the Balkans. After all, today in the 21st century, we all enjoy Roman Balkan law. We will pay the price in the future to keep the freedom.


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## dreamtime (Jul 19, 2021)

Starman said:


> Wow, great post, important information no doubt!
> 
> I wonder why the great effort to hide the story of counterfeiting behind the story of witches??  Why put forth a false, macabre story of subjugating women to all sorts of tests?  Isn't that a sordid tale the church would rather not be associated with unless absolutely necessary?  Is it to divert attention from the church being the money purveyors, which is antithetical to Scripture?  Did the church get a double good result by putting fear in the hearts of a future populace while obscuring their past nefarious role in society?
> 
> This is a good example of how our world and its narrative is formed by lies from "those most high."  Think of the effort over time to get artists to create all those engravings and paintings to tell this false narrative, and to scrub the real one.  It makes it easier to understand that all our history is a fabrication, especially the literary translations supposedly handed down from the ancient world.



One possibility is that analogies were used by our ancestors to keep certain secrets. It also seems to be common in the bible - when you look at how they protrayed celestial alignments.

Maybe the human psyche worked a bit different back then - people weren't able to understand some concepts if they weren't translated to everyday topics (animals, humans, etc.). We tend to focus on abstract logic nowadays, but this was not always so. Maybe people weren't able to think in such an abstract way and always needed a picture of something concrete in their mind to get it.

So maybe in the beginning they just associated coins with women, just like star constellations were associated with complicated metaphors like horses or chariots. And over time the meaning got forgotten. I bet it would have also been a benefit to the inquisition if the common low level criminal did not know all the details, so they wrote their books in a slightly encrypted way. If forgers got access to the written material, it would still be difficult for them to back-engineer the process to produce better counterfeit coins.



> Rev. 4:6-7, “In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.” (NIV).
> 
> The verse above reports on the constellations of Leo, Taurus, Sagittarius, and Pegasus. The lion is Leo, the ox is Taurus, the animal with a face like a man is Sagitarrius, and animal like a flying eagle is Pegasus. Leo represents where the sun is before autumn, Taurus represents where the sun is before summer, Sagittarius is where the sun is before winter, and Pegasus is where the sun is before spring.



Using Astronomy to Date the Book of Revelation


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## Will Scarlet (Jul 19, 2021)

So, all the heretics the Inquisition went after what were they an allegory for? Aliens?


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## Math & Physics (Jul 20, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> associated coins with women


"A half truth can be more detrimental than a whole lie." Ben Franklin
It's great to see the issue addressed, and a clearer focus as to where the exaggerations come from.
Just like the movie Titanic, you're going to find it's about Child Brides, Grooming, Human Trafficking, 'Dark Arts', not Voo Doo but VD. (as indicated by the needle test)
'History', the slave ships stopped in the Caribbean to pick up sugar and rum
Reality, 'East India Co' ran sugar plantations to break the new recruits, and those who didn't go along, didn't see harbor in Connecticut.  Those who did make it through the Human Trafficking ring, made it to Dixieland.

'History', Protestants fled England for the new world b/c of 'religious differences'.
Reality, The Roman Catholic Church controlled the 'legal system', creating witch TRIALS, a system used for the witches' entertainment. (a break-up court, not unlike Dom V standards today)  So subjective, England ended them in 1736, even influencing the Bill of Rights. 
_View: https://youtu.be/1rHSu2oDZXE?t=2767_

Witch Hunting, was a culling of degenerates, as the convenience of antibiotics had not been developed at the time.  In short: A Defense of Procreation
Sailors were known to insert 'hot wire' into the urethra, in hopes of curing 'the drips'.
You can only imagine how it would feel if a sailor groomed your daughter, only to make her sterile.  She could even sterilize the entire town.
Tales of the Brothers Grimm, were chalked up as Fairy Tales, when they were warnings to the children.
Old women were more likely to be destitute, and if her tribe had the right connections, she had no problems.
Harvest time was known for disappearing children.

Females tend to have a higher value to Human Traffickers, or can be 'bought' for coin, maybe money was created for women?

Great opener though.


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## Will Scarlet (Jul 20, 2021)

There was never much of an Inquisition in England:

"_When Mary Tudor took the throne, she instituted her own, smaller inquisition in her attempts to return her people to the Catholic faith. Yet while the Spanish Inquisition was a secretive organization, the trials and arrests in England were far more public and accessible. Much of the methodology and questioning processes were similar, yet Mary’s Inquisition met great resistance and died with her *after only a few years*_."  (The Unsuccessful Inquisition in Tudor England, Sarah J. Dell)

From the reign of Henry VIII (1491 – 1547,) England was under no obligations to the Holy See whatsoever with regard to counterfeiting or 'coining' as it was known.

Instead, England had Matthew Hopkins, 'The Witchfinder General', amongst others:

_"Methods of investigating witchcraft heavily drew inspiration from _*the Daemonologie *_*of King James*__, which was directly cited in Hopkins' The Discovery of Witches. Although torture was nominally unlawful in England, Hopkins often used techniques such as sleep deprivation to extract confessions from his victims. He would also cut the arm of the accused with a blunt knife, and if she did not bleed, she was said to be a witch. Another of his methods was the swimming test, based on the idea that as witches had renounced their baptism, water would reject them. Suspects were tied to a chair and thrown into water: all those who "swam" (floated) were considered to be witches. Hopkins was warned against the use of "swimming" *without receiving the victim's permission first*. This led to the legal abandonment of the test by the end of 1645.

"Hopkins and his assistants also looked for the Devil's mark. This was a mark that all witches or sorcerers were thought to possess that was said to be dead to all feeling and would not bleed – although it was sometimes a mole, birthmark or an extra nipple or breast. If the suspected witch had no such visible marks invisible ones could be discovered by pricking. Therefore, "witch prickers" were employed, who pricked the accused with knives and special needles looking for such marks, normally after the suspect had been shaved of all body hair. It was believed that the witch's familiar, an animal such as a cat or dog, would drink the witch's blood from the mark, as a baby drinks milk from the nipple...

"In Norfolk both Hopkins and Stearne were questioned by justices of the assizes about the torturing and fees. Hopkins was asked if methods of investigation did not make the finders themselves witches, and if with all his knowledge did he not also have a secret, or had used "unlawful courses of torture". By the time this court session resumed in 1647 Stearne and Hopkins had retired..." _(Source)

Hopkins' book, '_The Discovery of Witches_', was published in 1647 and the practices outlined were recommended in law books. During the year following publication the New England witch-hunts began in the American colonies using Hopkins' methods. These led to the now infamous Salem Witch Trials.


Furthermore:

"‘_Coining’ consists mainly of making counterfeit coins and ‘clipping’ or filing metal from the edges of silver coins (or, less often, gold coins) for re-use, a practice going back to medieval times. During the seventeenth century, an acute shortage of small change stimulated an explosion in coining. This was generally beneficial to commercial trade, and aroused little hostility in the community. *Coining and counterfeiting were not sins recognized by the Bible*, and unlike murder, theft, adultery and other acknowledged crimes, they had no ostensible victims. However, the claim by some modern historians that coiners were fully approved of by ordinary people is countered by the fact that coiners operated in utmost secrecy, to avoid being known as coiners to the rest of their community._" (Source)

This practice had previously led to all the Jews of England being subjected to arrest and search of their homes on suspicion of coin clipping and counterfeiting on November 17, 1278.


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## fabiorem (Jul 20, 2021)

It makes even more sense when you consider the word "witch" gave origin to the word "switch".


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## Jd755 (Jul 20, 2021)

fabiorem said:


> It makes even more sense when you consider the word "witch" gave origin to the word "switch".


Really?
How do you know this was the case?
Are you older than you are letting on?
And what about twitch and which?
Where do they fit in?


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## dreamtime (Jul 20, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> So, all the heretics the Inquisition went after what were they an allegory for? Aliens?


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## fabiorem (Jul 20, 2021)

kd-755 said:


> Really?
> How do you know this was the case?




I don't. I'm just speculating, as these words are very similar.
I can speculate any time I want, and anywhere I want, for whatever reason.
If you are seething, please consider using the ignore button.


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## Bitbybit (Jul 20, 2021)

Interesting.
witchcraft = alchemy = making gold and silver from nothing...

I quick-googled coin and witches.

The article linked below tells the story that if you got the right coins, you didnt get any problems..

_"...the well-circulated notion that some Massachusetts silver coins were used as talismans to ward off witches. "

"...Pine Tree Shilling, which was bent, to ward off the powers of witches. Something about the bent silver coin would dispel the forces of evil and protect the bearer. "_

= The Igor explanation would probably be that carrying a bent shilling proves its a real silver coin (not counterfeit coin)

A Coin a Day Keeps the Witches Away
200 people in one village were accused of *witchcraft, *19 of them was sentenced to death by hanging (=treated as any normal criminal)

A bent coin could mean it was pressed with a rolling rocker press: (perhaps the official production method, or not?)
https://coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/FAQ/witchpieces.html


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## Math & Physics (Jul 20, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> died with her


I can concede the point that counterfeit coin would be a problem around brothels.  As would be 'the great mead bust', ergot, White Rabbit, weed, ect...can we agree they where heavily associated with the Black Market?  Todays Smurf was yesterdays Sorcerer (source er) 
_View: https://youtu.be/HOdYGEuoXf8_

Cast silver/gold would be bend w/o break fractures.  Though silver alloyed with 15% copper yields sterling silver, ie flatware.
Lead or other alloys would crack, even stone can be cast.


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## Bitbybit (Jul 21, 2021)

I was checking swedish history about witches, at first glance it seems to disprove the thread. But just after a closer inspection, *the swedish events seems more related to sexual perversion *and some insanity among woman and children, possibly after years of heavy losses in war.(less men at home?) combined with viral hearsay and fear.

There are a couple main events in swedish history that in mainstream are connected to "witchhunt". (A 9 year period, 1668-1676)
But it seems to me most of the time the transcriptions noted in the 1800s texts about this mostly is very abstract and more translated to "sorcery/obsession/going with satan..etc" The magic events recalled in the texts seems to be secondary or nonexistent.
In the two most famous cases, all of the executed were females.. except one male at each site. (!)
The women were accused of leaving their homes, going to this specific place. (blåkulla) 

More strange:
When this "sorcery" came to the capitol city, it was introduced by a 12 year old boy from another town, whos mother already was accused of prostitution and sorcery etc.
The boy is said to have been boasting to the new friends about "having been socializing with satan" for several years already. Strange stories seems at this time to spin to existance in the community. One 15 year old girl said she had been married twice at Blåkulla, the man was very handsome, but when she confessed the man turned out to be just a broomstick (!). She had gave birth through her nose, what then jumped as frogs on the floor...." A 14 year old boy had seen one of the accused women at blåkulla imitate a candelabre with her head down and feet up and a light stick in the ass."
But later after investigation the children confessed, they had never been at some Blåkulla. They claimed they were forced to lie for not to be killed.
And the children had also been given money to make them lie about specific women, often by other women. The spiral of accusations had gone crazy. Eventually at least 3 women were sentenced to death, accused of faking accusations against other women, some more women were sentenced to punishments.


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## Gidgee Bark (Jul 21, 2021)

I hope you're right. But the Papal Bull, Summis desiderantes affectibus, which paved the way for the, Malleus Maleficarum, was predicated on the incubus/succubus attack. Now dream paralysis may be a physical phenomenon but for people who have experienced such attacks, as I did for many years, it is much more. Ghastly doesn't begin to describe the terror even if it's not an interdimensional assault by the vilest of vile entities, which it seems, but a dream state manifestation of a less than noble personal quality. A quality that, in my case, has nothing to do with long unused coinage, but more likely some type of repressed sexual urge. Which puts my upbringing in the Catholic (Dominican parish - would you believe) religion well into the frame by way of an instilled fear of women and her sexuality. This is confirmed by Pope Innocent the whatever (it gets tiring) also targeting midwives in his bull. No doubt in accord with Tertullian's vile rantings about women that aren't worth quoting or citing. Stiil, it's no surprise - the left, patriarchal, brain is the rock this world is built on. And tithing was always off the gross not the net.


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## Will Scarlet (Jul 21, 2021)

fabiorem said:


> I don't. I'm just speculating, as these words are very similar.
> I can speculate any time I want, and anywhere I want, for whatever reason.
> If you are seething, please consider using the ignore button.



You made a statement that gave no indication of speculation. People can disagree with you any time they want and anywhere they want, for whatever reason - it's a forum.



dreamtime said:


> View attachment 11695​



Not allegorical tax evaders then?



Bitbybit said:


> Interesting.
> witchcraft = alchemy = making gold and silver from nothing...



This is more speculation and not just over-simplistic, but incorrect imo.



Math & Physics said:


> Will Scarlet said:
> died with her
> 
> I can concede the point that counterfeit coin would be a problem around brothels. As would be 'the great mead bust', ergot, White Rabbit, weed, ect...can we agree they where heavily associated with the Black Market? Todays Smurf was yesterdays Sorcerer (source er)



I'm sorry, but I don't understand what any of this has to do with Bloody Mary whose death brought an end to the Inquisition in England? Or is this more allegory?


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## Jd755 (Jul 21, 2021)

fabiorem said:


> I don't. I'm just speculating, as these words are very similar.
> I can speculate any time I want, and anywhere I want, for whatever reason.
> If you are seething, please consider using the ignore button.


Asking questions of an apparent speculation is deemed, by some, to be a sign of anger or offence. 
My god.


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## fabiorem (Jul 21, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> You made a statement that gave no indication of speculation.




I did. I said "when you consider". This means it is conjecture. If you are questioning history, you need to speculate. 
I also showed evidence that in my language, witch is a old word for the wick used to lighten oil lamps. Also notice that witch and wick are similar as well. 



Will Scarlet said:


> People can disagree with you any time they want and anywhere they want, for whatever reason - it's a forum.




I don't have any problem with people disagreeing, just don't bully them.


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## Silveryou (Jul 21, 2021)

I think there is a misunderstanding here. @fabiorem I also understood (from an Italian speaker point of view) "when you consider" as a statement that the following part is a fact and not speculation. I would have said something like "it should be considered the possibility that..." maybe?!?!


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## fabiorem (Jul 21, 2021)

Bitbybit said:


> I was checking swedish history about witches, at first glance it seems to disprove the thread. But just after a closer inspection, *the swedish events seems more related to sexual perversion *and some insanity among woman and children, possibly after years of heavy losses in war.(less men at home?) combined with viral hearsay and fear.




I think actual women burning happened in protestant countries, because they didn't inherited the inquisition tribunal from the catholic church, and so didn't inherited their procedures, taking the Malleus Maleficarum terms literally. 
Notice that coins, when they don't have the faces of kings and politicians, usually have the face of a woman. This is the witch that was burned by the inquisition. But peasants took the meaning literally, killing women accused of "witchcraft". 
Also there is this idea that christianity might have been of pagan origin in the past, instead of jewish, and that judaism appeared after it, not before. Only later would christianity become jewish, with the reformation. And the witch hunts starts at around the same time of the reformation.


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## Theinquisitor2328 (Jul 21, 2021)

Very interesting, investigating heresy and witchcraft could have  simply been a cover in order to hide the true nature of the investigation so that no peasants would hide the evidence. Since they were Catholics maybe they did ask people to confess their sins or any heretical beliefs as they passed from town to town searching for counterfeit money. This would strengthen the peasants belief that the inquisitors were looking for heretics and witches and not anything else. Thanks for the info God bless!


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## Will Scarlet (Jul 22, 2021)

fabiorem said:


> Notice that coins, when they don't have the faces of kings and politicians, usually have the face of a woman. This is the witch that was burned by the inquisition. But peasants took the meaning literally, killing women accused of "witchcraft".



Maybe, perhaps, you will take this as bullying, but it isn't meant that way. I don't understand your statements. Are you stating that coins were minted with the image of burned witches on them? Or do you mean that the Inquisition deliberately minted the images of women on coins so that peasants would understand that to mean 'kill women accused of witchcraft?'



fabiorem said:


> Also there is this idea that christianity might have been of pagan origin in the past, instead of jewish, and that judaism appeared after it, not before. Only later would christianity become jewish, with the reformation.



Do you have any sources for this idea please? It sounds interesting, albeit crazy.


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## dreamtime (Jul 22, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> Not allegorical tax evaders then?



This was just meant to be a joke - https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/ancient-aliens


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## usselo (Jul 22, 2021)

fabiorem said:


> I think actual women burning happened in protestant countries, because they didn't inherited the inquisition tribunal from the catholic church, and so didn't inherited their procedures, taking the Malleus Maleficarum terms literally.
> Notice that coins, when they don't have the faces of kings and politicians, usually have the face of a woman. This is the witch that was burned by the inquisition. But peasants took the meaning literally, killing women accused of "witchcraft".
> Also there is this idea that christianity might have been of pagan origin in the past, instead of jewish, and that judaism appeared after it, not before. Only later would christianity become jewish, with the reformation. And the witch hunts starts at around the same time of the reformation.


There are several propositions there, evidence for which might be useful.

It's not an area I've looked at so I'm not sure I understand the background or the implications, but as a first pass at finding analyseable / discussable evidence:

First, a witch hunt timeline to help us identify the events. No idea how accurate it is: ThoughtCo's European witch hunt timeline

Second, I think you are suggesting that a protestant christianity introduced - or expanded - witchcraft hunts and increased the severity of punishment. And that this protestant christianity did this because it had incorporated judaic elements at the time of the Reformation.

With regard to the latter, the investigations into this that I know of are:

1. The Irvin/Seeliger analysis in the list at the bottom of: https://stolenhistory.net/threads/viruses-are-myths.1722/ but it is not clear which of those videos relate to the last paragraph of the above quote. So, I think the two main Irvin/Seeliger discussions about it are:​​bitchute.com/video/FLW9rYAi2NDq​and​bitchute.com/video/y1ujLpGzwg1z​​2. The Mathis entity, who:​
disparages the Irvin/Seeliger investigations at: http://mileswmathis.com/irvin.pdf, 
proposes witch trials in general were/are an intelligence operation: http://mileswmathis.com/occult.pdf, and 
examines the Salem trials as an example of that at: http://mileswmathis.com/salem.pdf.
Third, coin faces and what they represent. Completely new to me. Can you unpack your claim on this?

*General observation*: There's an implicit belief that witch hunters wandered from place for place looking for 'witches'. The limited evidence I have seen about investigations into coin counterfeiting (from Rev George Oliver books) is that the process was more like: counterfeits were found, complaints were made and certain groups were known for having the means (ecclesiasts, basically) and so investigations were more targeted at ecclesiasts and their properties.

None of the above touch on the proposition I am most interested in. Which is the idea that: 


the events in and around 'The Reformation' are a cover for a takeover of the institutions that govern/suppress/tax and 'direct' us. 
these entities possibly came out of Holland/Belgium and/or now-submerged parts of the North Sea and that they are the source of words and labels that sound like:
'Dogger'​'Doge'​'Deus'​'Deutch'​'Dutch'​'Duchess'​'Duchy' eg 'Duchy of Cornwall'​'Duke'​'Jew'​'Jude'​'Georg'​'Ger...'​'Hugh'​
and the source of the sudden appearance in eastern and western Europe of 'Dutch/Deutch' rulers and academics.​
In that highly speculative model, witch hunts may be an aspect of technology suppression or a cover story for mass killings. But it's an idea I am examining rather than promoting.


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## BStankman (Jul 22, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> One possibility is that analogies were used by our ancestors to keep certain secrets. It also seems to be common in the bible



This certainly gives a new light to this bible verse.
Taken from the King James version.  The notorious witch hunter.

_For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows._


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## Will Scarlet (Jul 22, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> This was just meant to be a joke - Ancient Aliens



So was this:



Will Scarlet said:


> Not allegorical tax evaders then?


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## fabiorem (Jul 22, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> Maybe, perhaps, you will take this as bullying, but it isn't meant that way. I don't understand your statements. Are you stating that coins were minted with the image of burned witches on them? Or do you mean that the Inquisition deliberately minted the images of women on coins so that peasants would understand that to mean 'kill women accused of witchcraft?'




No, I'm saying there is the face of a woman in old coins, or of a woman holding scales in her hands, sometimes called "liberty" and with a solar aura around her head. Burn the witch was actually burn the wick, to lighten the oil where the coins were tested. However, the association of the book with the coins might led people to believe physical women were being burned, when in fact it was the woman in the coin that was burned.

As for christianity having a pagan origin, there is plenty of evidence for that. Many of the saints were gods, and the resurrection theme was already present (like Dionysus in greek myth, Baldur and Odin in nordic myth, and so on). Also, Fomenko pointed out orgiastic themes in cathedrals, like a column with buttocks sculpted in it, and there were reports of orgies happening inside the church.

According to Fomenko, the roman prohibition of the bacchanalia is a reflex of the inquisition prohibiting orgies inside the temples. He also pointed out that there was no inquisition in the East, because there were no orgies. But the issue raised by this topic led me to think there were less counterfeiting happening in the East, or they used other methods there.


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## Bitbybit (Jul 22, 2021)

Just more funny stuff to check with Igors theory 

_"....Like Friedrich Stigler, other fraudsters were later up to mischief and enriched themselves at the expense of the superstitious population. Elisabeth Aurholtin was executed in 1597/98, [174] in 1608 another man, Hans Rößner, was expelled from the pillory of the city. [175] In 1617 a trial of Georg Carl Lamprecht followed, which in fact ended up being the only Nuremberg trial that ended at the stake because the elderly news agent Franz Schmidt, for whatever reason, did not carry out the (secret) order of the previous strangulation during his last execution. *The reason for execution, however, was not only due to witchcraft, but rather to the charge of counterfeiting, *which was one of the most serious crimes in the busy trading city. [176]Likewise, in 1622 the witchcraft rule was condemned with the death penalty along with church robbery and arson. [177]"_
Google Translate



_"...In seiner „*Summa Theologica“ bezeichnete er Ketzer als Falschmünzer,* die mit
dem Tode bestraft werden müssen.....
Translation:
"...Fighting heresy, belief in sorcery and demons was ubiquitous, with all
its evil consequences. Time and again in the Inquisition's manuals was sorcery as one
Represented form of heresy. The Dominican Thomas provided the theoretical basis for this
of Aquin.* In his "Summa Theologica" he referred to heretics as counterfeiters* who with
must be punished to death. The uncertainty of belief would be the work of the devil,
especially through the temptation of fornication would the pious turn away from
Divorce unbelievers."_
https://it013179.pers.ad.uni-graz.at:7090/Theo/1fa7175e599c257a3aafef75437ad52f.pdf



_"...Men who were convicted of high treason were hanged, drawn and quartered but this was not deemed acceptable for women as it would have involved nudity. High Treason included such offences as *counterfeiting money and "coining"* (the clipping of coins for pieces of silver and gold which were melted down to produce counterfeit coins), possession of coining equipment and colouring base metal coins (to pass them off as of higher value). Oddly, men who committed these same crimes suffered just ordinary hanging....
...Until 1790, every woman convicted of *counterfeiting *gold or silver coin of the realm, was sentenced *to be drawn on a hurdle to the place of execution and there " to be burned with fire till she was dead.*" (Blackstone's Commentaries, 204. Ibid, 377)
..Between 1702 and 1734, 10 women were burned at London’s Tyburn.  Two of these were for the Petty Treason murder of their husbands, and eight for High Treason, comprising *two for possession of coining equipment, four for counterfeiting and two for coining itself.*  Barbara Spencer was burned for counterfeiting on Wednesday, the 5th of July 1721 at Tyburn. Barbara was a rebellious young woman who wanted easy money and coining seemed to offer this. She was drawn to Tyburn tied to a hurdle (similar to a piece of wattle fencing) behind a horse, before being strangled at the stake prior to the fagots being lit.  ..."_
Burning at the stake


Thought:
Lets say death penalty for men by hanging was common. But when death penalty happened to women it was executed by fire at the square.  For the superstitious population this event with a fighting and screaming woman on fire would probably be horrific to witness, and the heresay would go wild.   "-Do they know she is guilty? -Yes, they put her in water, and she floated! "
However, the correct belief that she was just a coiner would eventually be known, at least in speech. But perhaps not in copied documents where the rulers probably would emphasize the heresy stuff, and downplay the coining.


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## Alexandra (Jul 22, 2021)

Starman said:


> I wonder why the great effort to hide the story of counterfeiting behind the story of witches?? Why put forth a false, macabre story of subjugating women to all sorts of tests?



I once heard a story that the crusaders have hidden their gold on a secret place.
Since then (the alleged 1500's) the gold standard was more and more replaced by a sort of "paper" money and loans.
Burned witches are not the treasure you're gonna dig for.


Since this topic I read the Wikipedia page with different eyes.
It turns out that the legends are all based on this "Malleus Maleficarum" book.
I am also suspicious about the fact that the writer's name was Heinrich _Salesman _in Latin.

The pictures of women are just fantasised later I guess.




Bitbybit said:


> There are a couple main events in swedish history that in mainstream are connected to "witchhunt". (A 9 year period, 1668-1676)


The Swedes were the first to install banknotes around 1664...
Because "they ran out of coins" ?


Starman said:


> I wonder why the great effort to hide the story of counterfeiting behind the story of witches?? Why put forth a false, macabre story of subjugating women to all sorts of tests?



I once heard a story that the crusaders have hidden their gold on a secret place.
Since then (the alleged 1500's) the gold standard was more and more replaced by a sort of "paper" money and loans.
Burned witches are not the treasure you're gonna dig for.


Since this topic I read the Wikipedia page with different eyes.
It turns out that the legends are all based on this "Malleus Maleficarum" book.
I am also suspicious about the fact that the writer's name was Heinrich _Salesman _in Latin.

The pictures of women are just fantasised later I guess.




Bitbybit said:


> There are a couple main events in swedish history that in mainstream are connected to "witchhunt". (A 9 year period, 1668-1676)


The Swedes were the first to install banknotes around 1664...
Because "they ran out of coins" ?
Aarch something went wrong with my post


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## dreamtime (Jul 22, 2021)

Bitbybit said:


> ...In seiner „*Summa Theologica“ bezeichnete er Ketzer als Falschmünzer,* die mit
> dem Tode bestraft werden müssen.....
> Translation:
> "...Fighting heresy, belief in sorcery and demons was ubiquitous, with all
> ...



This would be very interesting, but I looked for confirmation on this and found the following quote:

"As for heretics, they are guilty of a sin that justifies not only their expulsion from the Church by means of excommunication, but also their removal from this world by the death penalty. After all, it is a much more serious crime to counterfeit the faith, which is the life of the soul, than to counterfeit money, which is for worldly life. If, therefore, counterfeiters or other evildoers are rightfully promoted from life to death immediately by worldly princes, with how much greater right can heretics be not only expelled from church communion immediately after their conviction for heresy, but also be cheaply executed. (Summa theologica; IIa IIae q XI, a. 3)​​Thomas von Aquin - Ökumenisches Heiligenlexikon​
This is a direct quote from Aquin, and it seems he only compares witches to forgers, but doesn't equal them.

Notice the work you quote is a master thesis written by a student. These papers are usually full of errors, because they are only written to get a degree.


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## Bitbybit (Jul 22, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> By the way, *in the manuals of the inquisitors "witch" was called by the term "malefiz", which literally means "bad income".* A weight too light, as well as a coin too light, is definitely malefiz. (Compare with the English word beneficence- good income; also fiscal).


This is very telling. Are this manuals to be found readable online?



> According to Igor Grek, the Inquisition was a medieval analogue to Interpol, whose main task was to fight counterfeiters. Finally, for many centuries the Pope was an absolutist ruling European monarch, appointing kings and regulating the entire foreign and domestic policy of the continent. Financial control was one of the top priorities. We see this in the example of today's European Union.



Its the same with Queen of England
_“Many contemporary commentators identified the debasement of the coinage as a root cause of England’s economic problems, and they also went much further linking it to widespread social disorder, disruption and popular unrest – and the corruption of English towns and local government – with coinage being deeply symbolic of the health and prosperity of the nation,” said Bishop._

Naughty Money: Clippers and Coiners in 16th-Century England


dreamtime said:


> This would be very interesting, but I looked for confirmation on this and found the following quote:
> 
> "As for heretics, they are guilty of a sin that justifies not only their expulsion from the Church by means of excommunication, but also their removal from this world by the death penalty. After all, it is a much more serious crime to counterfeit the faith, which is the life of the soul, than to counterfeit money, which is for worldly life. If, therefore, counterfeiters or other evildoers are rightfully promoted from life to death immediately by worldly princes, with how much greater right can heretics be not only expelled from church communion immediately after their conviction for heresy, but also be cheaply executed. (Summa theologica; IIa IIae q XI, a. 3)​​Thomas von Aquin - Ökumenisches Heiligenlexikon​
> This is a direct quote from Aquin, and it seems he only compares witches to forgers, but doesn't equal them.
> ...



Allright. Good.
However, this is really early on, and he still thinks death penalty is right for both counterfeiters and herecy.
And it seems his notion is that it should be seen morally preferable for a ruler to send someone to cheap execution, if the suspect are heretic.
So for a priest/ruler, this part can be taken as a comparison/equalization where the result in practice was worse for the witch. (the counterfeiter that in part also was accused of heresy)

And the thought that should be entertained is to what grade the popularized witchhunts are mixed up with the hunts for counterfeits.
It is clear we have historic executions with women burned on fire (just because hanging would involve nudity), where the charges in reality where counterfeiting, where its perhaps not that far fetched they are now statistically "witches" in modern history. (because they were burnt on fire, to burn the devil etc).
The thing is, the rulers needed mainly to get rid of counterfeiters. This was high treason and high priority. While to invest in statewide crusade just to kill off random women can be seen quite illogical.


Contemporary critic:
The Discovery of Witchcraft by Reginald Scot, 1584


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## Will Scarlet (Jul 23, 2021)

Perhaps there's some confusion here between the terms 'coining' and 'counterfeiting'. In one way they are both the same because coining involves the imitation or copying of valid coins. However, counterfeiting doesn't explicitly refer to money, it could refer to an imitation of anything, such as being a true Christian. Therefore, to be accused of coining *and *counterfeiting doesn't make sense unless they have separate meanings.

"counterfeit (v.)
c. 1300, countrefeten, "pretend to be," from countrefet (adj.), Old French contrefait "imitated" (Modern French contrefait), past participle of contrefaire "imitate," from contre- "against" (see contra-) + faire "to make, to do" (from Latin facere "to make, do," from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put").​
From late 14c. as "assume, simulate" (a feeling, quality, etc.); also "to make a copy of, imitate without authority or right," especially with a view to deceive or defraud. Medieval Latin contrafactio meant "setting in opposition or contrast." Related: Counterfeited; counterfeiting.​
"counterfeit (adj.)

late 14c. (late 13c. in Anglo-French), countrefet, "spurious, forged, made in semblance of an original with a view to defraud," also "feigned, simulated, hypocritical," from Old French contrefait "imitated" (Modern French contrefait), past participle of contrefaire "imitate," from contre- "against" (see contra (prep., adv.)) + faire "to make, to do" (from Latin facere "to make, do," from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put").​​As a noun, "an imitation or copy designed to pass as an original," late 14c., from the adjective."​
Source: counterfeit | Origin and meaning of counterfeit by Online Etymology Dictionary



fabiorem said:


> a woman holding scales in her hands, sometimes called "liberty" and with a solar aura around her head.



I think you'll find that represents justice, pretty much universally.



fabiorem said:


> Burn the witch was actually burn the wick, to lighten the oil where the coins were tested. However, the association of the book with the coins might led people to believe physical women were being burned, when in fact it was the woman in the coin that was burned.



Confusing 'burn the wick' with 'burn the witch' only works in English and if the person saying it has a speech impediment. Which (not witch) "book" are you referring to? Executions were public events back then so I'd say it was very difficult to confuse a coin with a burning woman.



fabiorem said:


> As for christianity having a pagan origin...



It's also a strong possibility that Christianity hijacked 'pagan' gods and turned them into Saints in order to take control of people's beliefs and redirect them. This also happened to 'pagan' (I hate that word)  places of worship, the Christians either destroyed them or built churches or shrines over them. I don't see how this shows that 'paganism' and Christianity were one and the same thing... personally that is. It's like putting the cart before the horse, imo.

If you think that 'paganism' equates to orgies and nothing more, then maybe you should try thinking about it as the Old World belief system.


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## dreamtime (Jul 23, 2021)

@Will Scarlet For what it's worth, the german version of the quote by Aquin from which I translated says "coining" ("forger of coins").


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## Bitbybit (Jul 23, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> Perhaps there's some confusion here between the terms 'coining' and 'counterfeiting'. In one way they are both the same because coining involves the imitation or copying of valid coins. However, counterfeiting doesn't explicitly refer to money, it could refer to an imitation of anything, such as being a true Christian. Therefore, to be accused of coining *and *counterfeiting doesn't make sense unless they have separate meanings.



Yes, well i am aware, so in my search i have made clear that the english translated word "counterfeiting" had the meaning of coining. Searchwords i used were for example "Falschmünzer" as you can see in my post #31 where i included a snippet from the german original just to make just this point clear. 
(Falschmünzer and Falschmünzerei are both googletranslated to "counterfeit")


*"*_Although *many people might associate burning at the stake with witchcraft*, it was much less used for that offence in Britain than in other parts of Europe - particularly France, Switzerland and the Nordic countries. In England witchcraft was a felony and thus punishable by hanging. Alice Molland is thought to have been the last person to suffer for witchcraft, at Exeter in 1684."_

At least in around 1700s it seems most of the english women that burnt, burnt because of murder or coining. 
(The question about the 1300-1500s are more obscure.)

From this source:
Burning at the stake


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## fabiorem (Jul 23, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> I think you'll find that represents justice, pretty much universally.



Yes, but these coins only go back to the 19th century, after the inquisition was over. If you look on numismatics catalogs, you will notice coins from the middle ages and the renaissance period usually displays emperors and politicians in their designs. My guess is these coins were melted, and over time it came to be associated with counterfeiting. Also, christianity might have sprung from the emperor cult (the emperor Andronikus, who, according to Fomenko, was crucified in Italy) so to not put the emperor (or a politician) in the coin might have been regarded as "heresy". In any case, the church used "heresy" as a pretext to hide the fact that the witch hunts were all about money.

See today how the public is gullible and fall for whatever made-up story by the media. The media today is what the church was in the past. So it was easy to create this narrative of dealing with the devil to create fear among the peasantry, the same way today people fear a virus.



Will Scarlet said:


> It's also a strong possibility that Christianity hijacked 'pagan' gods and turned them into Saints in order to take control of people's beliefs and redirect them. This also happened to 'pagan' (I hate that word)  places of worship, the Christians either destroyed them or built churches or shrines over them. I don't see how this shows that 'paganism' and Christianity were one and the same thing... personally that is. It's like putting the cart before the horse, imo.



We can't ignore the cults of Mithras and Cybele. Mithraism have striking similarities to christianity, and the Cybele cult gave origin to celibacy. Cybele's priests were called "galli" and "essenes", which ties up with Julius Caesar commentary that the gauls have better skill with latin than the romans themselves, and with Fomenko claiming latin, greek and hebrew were sacred languages, not for everyday use. As for the essenes, they are deemed as the precursors of christianity. So yes, it all points to a pagan origin, and since the history of the hebrews was literally copied from byzantine history, we can claim judaism appeared after christianity, not before it.

The Dionysian cult was linked to the Cybele cult (which could lead to the idea of celibacy being temporary, instead of permanent, hence the orgies in certain dates), and according to Cumont, there was a rivalry between the Mithras cult and the Cybele cult. We can just pinpoint this to the schism between East and West, with the bacchanalia prohibition by the romans being actually done by the inquisition.


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## Math & Physics (Jul 23, 2021)

Bitbybit said:


> many people might associate burning at the stake with witchcraft


Some have gone so far as to say witches were the first pole dancers.

Much of the 'coining' perspective may be the same angle used against Capone.  If you can't get them on criminal charges, take their money for tax evasion/counterfeit.
So money was of a higher priority than life itself, how did they deal with pederast?  Give the kid some KY, and a data boy?
The Pilgrims knew long before Fredrick Douglas coined "It is easier to rear strong children, than to repair broken men.", they had to get out of England or their children would suffer.  Crown courts are only there to protect the pederast, like modern courts.  Nothing like running a crime syndicate were 'you' get to define all the crimes and what's accepted as 'evidence'.

Fire was a primary means of sanitation.
Then again, who's next to extol the virtues of Simon&Shuster, when we can't even take what's being recorded as history now, serious?


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## Will Scarlet (Jul 24, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> For what it's worth, the german version of the quote by Aquin from which I translated says "coining" ("forger of coins").



So it was his misunderstanding of the word "counterfeiting" and not yours. 



Bitbybit said:


> Yes, well i am aware, so in my search i have made clear that the english translated word "counterfeiting" had the meaning of coining.



But it doesn't and never did.



fabiorem said:


> Yes, but these coins only go back to the 19th century, after the inquisition was over.



Now you're arguing against yourself - you brought up the female figure of "liberty" on coins, not me.

As for the rest of your speculation, this is the wrong thread in which to deal with it, in spite of the Administrator's and original poster's 'Like'.

This thread has gone too far for me what with orgies and now pole-dancers. The contributors are clearly determined to present the Inquisition as simply the 'coin police' rather than the means by which *counterfeit Christians* were exterminated.

The Spanish Inquisition (who no one expects) was specifically formed in order to weed out counterfeit Christians - mostly Jews disguised as Christians. Back then the Jews had their activities severely restricted by legislation, not just in Spain, but in most of Europe. You alone can decide if that was pure persecution or whether it was justified, but you owe it to yourself to do some research rather than just accept the modern status quo on the subject as history has been changed in recent years, just as it is being changed here and now.

If a Jew took baptism and counterfeited Christianity in outward appearance he had much more liberty to do whatever it was he wanted to do. The Spanish Inquisition was even busier after 1492 when the Jews were expelled from Spain, because many had taken baptism to avoid expulsion. At the time the Catholic Monarchs believed that all Jews had to be converted to Christianity in order that the Second Coming would take place. Therefore, the Inquisition's job was to ensure that the conversions were genuine not *counterfeit*.

Often, as has been shown in previous comments, the crimes of coining and *counterfeiting *went together - i.e. forgery of coins and *counterfeiting *a genuine belief in Christianity. Can it be a coincidence that the Jews were expelled from England for exactly that combination of crimes?

The persecution of 'witches' and other heretics came under the same category of being *counterfeit *Christians.

I expect there to be more of these allegorical interpretations of pre-1700 events as it is necessary in order to support @dreamtime's and... what is the other name... Moses' (?) new official stolenhistory narrative, whereby everything pre-1700 is swept under the mudflood. The 'reset' concept also demands that everything pre-1700 was a part of the pre-reset Old World and therefore all 'Sweetness and Light', i.e. no nasty witch hunts where hundreds of thousands of innocent people were burned alive. Also no similar atrocities perpetrated by the Kabal through their machinations to gain control of everything, everywhere and lead us to where we are now - upon the verge of what may be compared to another witch hunt of Covid deniers and vaccine refusers.

This approach removes all historical context, imo, so that no individual isolated allegorical event makes any sense in the context of other similarly interpreted events. The guilty are absolved and rather than 'Rediscovering the History of the World' much more of it is being hidden under the mud and that suits the Kabal just fine.

Apologies for any offence, but it's all just conjecture.

_Exit stage left..._


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## dreamtime (Jul 24, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> I expect there to be more of these allegorical interpretations of pre-1700 events as it is necessary in order to support @dreamtime's and... what is the other name... Moses' (?) new official stolenhistory narrative, whereby everything pre-1700 is swept under the mudflood. The 'reset' concept also demands that everything pre-1700 was a part of the pre-reset Old World and therefore all 'Sweetness and Light', i.e. no nasty witch hunts where hundreds of thousands of innocent people were burned alive. Also no similar atrocities perpetrated by the Kabal through their machinations to gain control of everything, everywhere and lead us to where we are now - upon the verge of what may be compared to another witch hunt of Covid deniers and vaccine refusers.



That's all your interpretations. There's no "official stolenhistory narrative" and everyone can speculate in this thread and present their findings, including you. the value of a forum is that there can me many different viewpoints existing alongside each other. every reader can decide for himself. I am as biased as everyone else.

I remember the modern concept of wich hunts started with a book published by an employee of napoleon, so it may be good to start there when thinking about what is true about the story of the inquisition.

SH Archive - Insane Asylums of the United States, Canada, UK and the rest of the World



_1829: "Histoire de l'Inquisition en France" by Etienne Leon de Lamothe-Langon was published. It was a forgery claiming massive witchcraft executions in the 14th century._


From wikipedia:

Histoire de l'Inquisition en France is a book about witch trials in the early modern period published in 1829 by Étienne-Léon de Lamothe-Langon (1786–1864), supposedly on the basis of his unprecedented access to Church archives in Toulouse, granted by one Bishop Antoine Pascal Hyacinthe Sermet . *It is now regarded as a forgery.*​The dramatic and blood curdling accounts of Histoire were incorporated as a primary source into many other volumes, notably Joseph Hansen's (1862–1943) German Quellen und Untersuchungen zur Geschichte des Hexenwahns und der Hexenverfolgung im Mittelalter ("Sources and investigations regarding the history of the witch craze and the witch hunts in the Middle Ages"), which in turn became the source for many other works.* Ultimately, Lamothe-Langon's work became the sole or principal primary source for a substantial part of twentieth century popular and historical beliefs about the Inquisition, witchcraft, torture and jurisprudence in the medieval period.*​​*... Prior to fabricating the Histoire, Lamothe-Langon had been an author of gothic horror novels. Subsequently, he went on to forge several autobiographies of French historical figures.*​


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## Will Scarlet (Jul 24, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> I remember the modern concept of wich hunts started with a book published by an employee of napoleon, so it may be good to start there when thinking about what is true about the story of the inquisition.



How do you define "the modern concept of witch hunts"? Do you mean post-reset? Personally, 1829 doesn't seem like a good place to start at all given that the subject matter is far older. There are thousands of documents claiming to be contemporary with the actual  events and they are available in many languages. As you might imagine, the Spanish Inquisition is covered extensively in Spanish. Or do you consider all of these to be counterfeit?


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## dreamtime (Jul 24, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> How do you define "the modern concept of witch hunts"? Do you mean post-reset? Personally, 1829 doesn't seem like a good place to start at all given that the subject matter is far older. There are thousands of documents claiming to be contemporary with the actual  events and they are available in many languages. As you might imagine, the Spanish Inquisition is covered extensively in Spanish. Or do you consider all of these to be counterfeit?



No, it's a good idea to get an overview of all those documents and the story that has been created around them. I just don't take them at face value. 

Many people here radically question everything, which can go too far sometimes. That's why it's important to have members like you in the forum who aren't as radical as others when it comes to questioning sources.


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## Silveryou (Jul 24, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> I expect there to be more of these allegorical interpretations of pre-1700 events as it is necessary in order to support @dreamtime's and... what is the other name... Moses' (?) new official stolenhistory narrative, whereby everything pre-1700 is swept under the mudflood. The 'reset' concept also demands that everything pre-1700 was a part of the pre-reset Old World and therefore all 'Sweetness and Light', i.e. no nasty witch hunts where hundreds of thousands of innocent people were burned alive. Also no similar atrocities perpetrated by the Kabal through their machinations to gain control of everything, everywhere and lead us to where we are now - upon the verge of what may be compared to another witch hunt of Covid deniers and vaccine refusers.


All that remains is a perpetual 'communists vs nazis' narrative in which everyone accuses the other side except not, because the TPTB-PLGHIZ are the ones to blaim, but no one knows if they are nazis or communists and here we go, the wheel turns endlessly.

EDIT: this was my message n. 666. alleluja


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## fabiorem (Jul 25, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> Now you're arguing against yourself - you brought up the female figure of "liberty" on coins, not me.




I brought it because of the similarity between the two words, witch and wick. Like I said in another thread, information could be mistaken easily when you read tomes written by hand with cursive letters, and under the light of candles. So I don't see any contradiction in what I said. It _could_ have been the case, since these coins don't go back before the 19th century, when the inquisition was over. They could have been melted before, hence "burn the witch".
I'm not denying people might have been burned alive. The peasantry believed the church in the same way they believe the media now, so they might have conducted executions in that way, in cases where counterfeiting was not involved. But the church clearly was after counterfeiting, using "heresy" as a cover-up for their operations. And as you mentioned, the marranos were into counterfeiting as well.


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## Bitbybit (Jul 25, 2021)

_On November 17, 1278, all the Jews of England were subjected to arrest and search of their homes on suspicion of coin clipping and counterfeiting.

Some 680 Jews detained in the Tower of London, with more than 300 subsequently executed..

...Coin clipping was a widespread practice, one in which both Jews and Christians indulged, and which led to a financial crisis in the kingdom. (One contemporary chronicle estimated that, overall, the practice reduced currency’s value to one-half its face value.) By 1275, coin clipping had been elevated to the status of capital crime. It was in this context that the November 1278 raid on coin clippers got under way. _
1278: All Jews of England arrested in 'coin-clipping' scandal



_... counterfeiting (coins) was rampant in the eighteenth century..
...Nicolas Tosney’s work on London, on the other hand, found an unusually high level of female participation in counterfeiting..
...By subverting the official currency, even small-time counterfeiters undermined royal authority, and the cumulative effect of many individual operations was seen to threaten to undermine the economic stability of the kingdom, if not the ideological foundations of the monarchy...._
Counterfeiting in 18th-Century France: Political Rhetoric and Social Realities


_Coining was one of the most popular forms of property crime for female offenders in the nineteenth century.
Coining – WaywardWomen


"..we roast a female fellow creature alive, for putting a pennyworth of quicksilver on a half-penny worth of brass."
..Afterwards, Margaret was presented, wearing a white penitential robe. A stake had been erected for her, in whose center she aschended a stool. Solemnly the sheriffs men lit up the stake..
..During the search following things turned up: a bit of sandpaper, a cork, some "black stuff", a pair of tweezers, a melting pot and an iron flask.
Let’s be merciful and hang them: The Catherine Heyland case - CoinsWeekly



Jean Bodin was [..] an early observer that the rise in prices was due in large part to the influx of precious metals.[27] Analysing the phenomenon, amongst other factors he pointed to the relationship between the amount of goods and the amount of money in circulation. The debates of the time laid the foundation for the "quantity theory of money".[28] 
...Jean Bodin, jurist and statesman, was not only one of the most eminent European publicists of the sixteenth century, but one of the most rational and tolerant thinkers of his time. Yet even such a man could thus write "Of the punishments deserved by witches":_
I. The Theory of Witch-Persecution.


_...the Valais trials of 1428 are the first event (in Switzerland) in which the accusation of sorcery leads to systematic persecution....
the victims in the Valais witch trials are estimated to have been two-thirds male and one-third female..._
Valais witch trials - Wikipedia




(This translation below seems weird to me.)
_2. For (and this in the second place I recant), in the letters which I have clandestinely sent to sundry persons, I have pertinaciously, without solid reasons, alleged against the magistracy that the [aerial] flight of witches is false and imaginary; asserting, moreover, that the wretched creatures are compelled by the severity of the torture to confess things which they have never done, and that by cruel butchery innocent blood is shed and by a new alchemy gold and silver coined from human blood.
https://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/244trier.html_


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## Silveryou (Jul 25, 2021)

Slightly off from the topic but still related. I've always been fascinated by the possibility that banks (Bank - Wikipedia) did exist way before their supposed beginning in the Renaissance. The architectural style of the bank is always that of a Greek/Roman temple. I wonder if the bank was in ancient time the religious establishment itself, both in 'pagan' and Christian times. It is known that temples 'guarded' the treasures of the community and these 'goods' were consacreted to the gods or the God...

EDIT: for example the temple of Saturn (Pluto in Latin and Greek, the wealthy) could be both the bank and the cult of those who pray on Saturday...


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## Will Scarlet (Jul 26, 2021)

fabiorem said:


> I brought it because of the similarity between the two words, witch and wick.



In the English language you 'light' a wick in order to burn something else, you don't 'burn' the wick. Also, whist they may look similar to you in print, they sound completely different and would never be confused.



dreamtime said:


> That's why it's important to have members like you in the forum who aren't as radical as others when it comes to questioning sources.



And look a what that costs "members like" me. We become fair game for marginalisation and personal insults. I can't help thinking that your new narrative has created a schism in the forum. To use your terminology, it's as if you have declared yourself the champion of 'the radicals' and given them a flag to rally around. It also seems that I'm the only 'unbeliever' stupid enough to oppose it. I have better things to do and my own projects to spend time on, so I will probably resort to the occasional heckling in future.

@Bitbybit  I'm not sure what your mixed bag of quotes is supposed to be in support of, but I have never denied that coining took place. The link between coining and witchcraft is spurious, imo. Why would a witch counterfeit coins? Weren't they too busy cursing people and ruining crops and consorting with the devil etc? Why would they need equipment to do it? Wouldn't they just magic up some of the genuine stuff? I have never in my life found any reference stating that the practice of witchcraft includes counterfeiting coins. What's highly likely is that because coining was causing a social and economic problem it was blamed upon witches, *just as everything else was* - like bad harvests, disease etc. This would be thanks to the atmosphere of general paranoia created by Christianity, as you have illustrated by referring to this link: The Theory of Witch-Persecution.

Did the Inquisition get to Salem, Massachusetts? Were they looking for coin counterfeiting witches there as well?

This gives a broader picture than the one you have quoted from here - 1278: All Jews of England arrested in 'coin-clipping' scandal which seems to be a Jewish website (although I get kicked off the site for not accepting their cookies, scripts and adverts.)

*'The Great Eviction*

King Edward I’s expulsion of the Jews from England in 1290 was the start of what Jewish historians call ‘*The Great* Eviction’… and there we have that epithet again, ‘The Great’.

There was a very delicate balance in the relationship between the people, the Jews and the king. The people blamed the Jews for high rents, interest rates and prices. The Jews blamed the king for over taxation and the king didn’t trust that the Jews were playing fair with him. This was a recipe for disaster and in Albion that disaster culminated in the 1290 expulsion.

“_It was only in the late thirteenth century that some Christian kings tightened their control over Jewish life in Europe. The king of England expelled *his Jews*, perhaps 2,000 people, in 1290, and the king of France expelled *his*, possibly 80,000, in 1306. There probably were as many French Jews forced into exile in 1306 as there were Iberian Jews expelled from Castile and Aragon in 1492.” Source' The Betrayal of Albion (Part 2): 1066 and all that_



Silveryou said:


> I've always been fascinated by the possibility that banks (Bank - Wikipedia) did exist way before their supposed beginning in the Renaissance.



Apparently the concept of banking was 'invented' by the Knights Templar, although I'm probably wrong about that of course.

Templar Banking Principles | Order of the Temple of Solomon


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## fabiorem (Jul 26, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> In the English language you 'light' a wick in order to burn something else, you don't 'burn' the wick. Also, whist they may look similar to you in print, they sound completely different and would never be confused.




But I was talking about the print (in this case, hand-written documents, read by candle light), not about how these words sounds in modern daily use.
As for the rest of your post, it seems you want to suppress and/or censor other people's thoughts, like people do in Reddit. I didn't see anyone being a "radical" here.




Silveryou said:


> I've always been fascinated by the possibility that banks (Bank - Wikipedia) did exist way before their supposed beginning in the Renaissance. The architectural style of the bank is always that of a Greek/Roman temple.




I believe they already existed before their supposed beginning as well, but were controlled by sacred institutions.
Notice that the roman senate was composed of priests, and the figure of the secularized clerk came from the clergy.
Roman senators were soothsayers. The name Vatican came from _vates_, that is, people who made predictions by watching the flight of birds, and notice the financial markets have a lot of charts and predictions (so-called "technical analysis").


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## Will Scarlet (Jul 27, 2021)

fabiorem said:


> I didn't see anyone being a "radical" here.



I didn't introduce that term to this thread it was @dreamtime but I think you're right, 'radical' is the wrong word. 'Fanatical' looks the same in print - they both end in 'ical' so by the burning wick of a _lighted _candle they could be mistaken for each other.

If I'm suppressing or censoring other people's thoughts, then I'm doing a really bad job of it... but then both those words end in 'ing' and so, by the light of a burning witch, could easily be mistaken for 'disagreeing'.


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## Bitbybit (Jul 27, 2021)

Will Scarlet, fyi, I am not convinced of either ”side”.
The bag of quotes is just some results when checking for the coining connection. A question could be: How much of the witchburning kids learn about in school was in reality the result of the execution of women in general?

So far it seems like many women were certainly killed on a fire accused of coining. (just like the popularized witch, we have also tales of coining women dressed in white (as the saint Lucia) etc)

Torture was certainly used, but I havent seen in the individual cases so far that it was normal to test criminal women with a floating test. Mostly this flotatation test is only somewhat depicted in paintings/pamhplets. So another question: if the water test was originally meant for coins, how and when did it turn out for being about women?


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## Silveryou (Jul 29, 2021)

I've stumbled upon some very interesting medieval pictures from the city of Siena, Tuscany. Here below just a few. The others on a dedicated archive (http://www.archiviodistato.siena.it/museobiccherne/it/5/home). No witches here, but I think it could be useful to understand the whole matter.
















​These images on wood were the covers of the accounting books of the so-called _*biccherna*_ (Biccherna - Wikipedia), the magistrate or chancellery of finance. The word seems to derive from the Palace of Blachernae in Constantinople (Palace of Blachernae - Wikipedia), which guarded the imperial treasure and various important 'christian sacred relics'.

It is frequent to see these covers beginning with: "LIBRO DE L’ENTRATA E DE L’ESCITA DE LA BICCHERNA", roughly "BOOK OF THE INCOME AND EXPENSES OF THE *BICCHERNA*".
Strangely enough though, from time to time (like in the images above) you can find something slightly different: "LIBRO DE L’ENTRATA E DE L’ESCITA/DELLA GIENERALE CHABELLA", roughly ""BOOK OF THE INCOME AND EXPENSES OF THE *CHABELLA*".

Chabella! What was the chabella (or gabella, or kabella)? It was obviously another kind of institution related to the magistrate or chancellery of finance. Cannot explain the exact difference. What is important is that the *gabelle *(Gabelle - Wikipedia) was in any case "a very unpopular tax on salt in France that was established during the mid-14th century and lasted, with brief lapses and revisions, until 1946. The term _gabelle_ is derived from the Italian _*gabella*_* (a duty)*, itself originating from the Arabic word *قَبَلَ (qabala, "he received")*". And again: "Because the _gabelle_ affected all French citizens (for use in cooking, for preserving food, for making cheese, and for raising livestock) and propagated extreme regional disparities in salt prices, the salt tax _stood as one of the most hated and grossly unequal forms of revenue generation in the country's history_".

The covers shown in the archive sometimes call the officials '_*iudices*_' (litteraly _judges_)... They were very hated by everyone and it's clear from the images above and the parallel to the Palace of Blachernae that they used religious imagery while they _served_... mmmmmhhhh iudices practicing the chabella... mmmmmmhhhhhh

Finally an interesting adding note. The head of the biccherna was the chamberlain, whose name derived from "the Old French _chamberlain, chamberlenc_, Modern French _chambellan_, from Old High German _Chamarling, Chamarlinc_, whence also the Medieval Latin _cambellanus, camerlingus, camerlengus_; Italian _camerlingo_; Spanish _camerlengo_, compounded of Old High German _Chamara, Kamara_ [Latin _camera_, “chamber”], and the German suffix _-ling" _(Chamberlain (office) - Wikipedia). The 'CHAMARLENGHO' (this is how it is written in the picture below), was the "*chamber attendant*" (generally understood "of the treasury" and "of the sovereign") (Ciambellano - Wikipedia - in Italian).



mmmmmmmhhhhh! *CHAMARLENGHO!!!!!!*
I have heard in the past of a certain dude who was Mayor of the Palace (Mayor of the palace - Wikipedia), or majordomo (*manager of the household*) of some Frankish King... What was his name? Pipan? Peppin? Oh yeah, Pepin! (Pepin the Short - Wikipedia)
He had a son. What was his name? mumble mumble oh yeah *CHARLEMAGNE!!!!! *(Charlemagne - Wikipedia)
This guy was apparently crowned by a very important dude called Pope, the sovereign of Latin christianity, and in his career accomplished some important reforms. One of those was the institution of "_principles for accounting practice_" (Charlemagne - Wikipedia).

Isn't it strange that the Chamarlengho(s) and Charlemagne had the same interests?


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## fabiorem (Jul 29, 2021)

The chamberlain is equivalent to the huskarl, or house karl. The term karl (before it became a name) was used to mean a clerk, and also a bodyguard. Charles is a variant of Karl, hence charlemagne = chamberlain = huskarl. Charlemagne would mean the top clerk ruling over the empire. I think he is a fictional character used as a allegory for a takeover of the crown by the church.


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## Alexandra (Jul 29, 2021)

Bitbybit said:


> So another question: if the water test was originally meant for coins, how and when did it turn out for being about women?


Well it may be a fantasised merge between real witch tribunals with some sort of judge and the accused woman, and testing on coining/counterfeiting.

Maybe it's even some sort of Enlightment propaganda to point out how backwards the church was.




Silveryou said:


> I wonder if the bank was in ancient time the religious establishment itself, both in 'pagan' and Christian times


Well I guess....
Temple of Mercury looks a lot like many stock exchange buildings

"_Mercury is the Roman god of commerce.  
In many guises, he has symbolized stock exchange trade in the Netherlands for centuries.  As early as the 17th century, a Mercury statue adorns the facade of the Beurs van Hendrick de Keyser in Amsterdam."_
( Dutch )


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## Sovereine (Jul 31, 2021)

This proposal that the story of the Inquisition's witch hunts might be a metaphor or code language for hunting counterfeit coins is blowing my mind...  opens up the possibilities of what else is metaphorical or in code. 

Makes sense that if you wanted to limit the understanding of some information, you would develop code words for describing things you didn't want others to know.  And then when others get a hold of the coded story, they don't know any better and take it literally...

This sounds like it could be a really interesting video!


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## push4more (Aug 2, 2021)

"The long and underappreciated history of male witches – and the countries where more men were prosecuted for witchcraft​More men than women were prosecuted for witchcraft in countries such as Normandy, Estonia, Burgundy, Russia and Iceland"​
The long and underappreciated history of male witches

Perhaps we might find that men were the real burned. Most of the women mentioned in this topic were ....fake?  

Delicious.



1400-1800 = 400 years distributed over 50,000 casualities = 125 per year.    My guess 125 is real - averaged.  This topic is also true.





Witches Everywhere​The 30,000 to 50,000 casualties of the European witch-hunts were not distributed uniformly through time or space, even within particular jurisdictions.  Three-quarters of Europe saw not a single trial.  Witch persecution spread outward from its first center in alpine Italy in the early 15th century, guttering out in Poland, where witchcraft laws were finally repealed in 1788.  The center had generally stopped trying witches before the peripheries even started.

Who Burned the Witches?


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## Math & Physics (Aug 16, 2021)

Alexandra said:


> some sort of Enlightment propaganda to point out how backwards the church was.


While the church may have seemed backward, it's the fact they were promoting policies that worked against the public interest, and trying to hide it through double speak/sophistry, that made it seem backward.  In order to control the black market, they were/are the supervisors.
When you get to the bottom rung of society, they tend to 'seek altered states of mind' (ergot, the great mead bust).  Is that young prostitute really going to notice counterfeit coin you passed in the middle of the night?  Exploitation of children was common so commonplace prior to 1874, when an eight year old girl, Mary Ellen, had been maliciously abused, New York had to prosecute the abusers under animal cruelty statutes, as there were no protections for children. (Black's Law: abuse, child)


push4more said:


> underappreciated history of male witches


While the UK was very hostile toward women, men carry VD as well.  And, IMO, were more likely to spread it due to extensive travel.

Personally I find it disturbing that in Black's Law, the term witch hunt wasn't commonly used in the English language until 1885.  Now that just doesn't jive.


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## ViniB (Jan 14, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> I've stumbled upon some very interesting medieval pictures from the city of Siena, Tuscany. Here below just a few. The others on a dedicated archive (http://www.archiviodistato.siena.it/museobiccherne/it/5/home). No witches here, but I think it could be useful to understand the whole matter.
> View attachment 11796View attachment 11797View attachment 11798View attachment 11799
> View attachment 11800View attachment 11801View attachment 11802​These images on wood were the covers of the accounting books of the so-called _*biccherna*_ (Biccherna - Wikipedia), the magistrate or chancellery of finance. The word seems to derive from the Palace of Blachernae in Constantinople (Palace of Blachernae - Wikipedia), which guarded the imperial treasure and various important 'christian sacred relics'.
> 
> ...


This is wild, once or twice is a coincidence, a third time is a pattern. But a pattern of duplicate characters, of institutions or of consolidation of power?? Maybe a bit of all 3 combined???


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## JWW427 (Apr 29, 2022)

Sounds like a Russian coverup story to me.
The Church and all religions are mind control devices for slaves.
The Roman Church is evil and pedophile-ridden.
All religions are unnecessary and controlling.


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## Frits (Aug 19, 2022)

Very good article.
I have forwarded this page to several women I know so that they can get rid of the idea of witches being burned once and for all. I hope it arrives.

I'm suddenly thinking that that was the intention to separate women and men, just like feminism was made up: divide and conquer.


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