# Ancient Rome according to Piranesi and others



## Silveryou (Jan 13, 2021)

In the past days, while searching KD's blog (Section listhttps://www.stolenhistory.org/articles/the-ptb-history-fabrication-tools.480/#post-509), I found a very interesting engraving by Piranesi (Giovanni Battista Piranesi - Wikipedia) that can possibly reveal some information on the past of the city of Rome. It's called "Antiquus Circi Martial. Cum Monum. Adiacentia Prospectus Ad Viam Appiam" (roughly: "Ancient Martial Circus with Monuments. Perspective near the Appian Way") and it is supposed to be a fantasy by the author.





What struck me was that strange and unusual line of obelisks and bizarre structures in the middle of the engraving. I recognised immediately the typical _spina _(Roman circus - Wikipedia) of the hippodromes of the past. Here below is represented the Hippodrome of Constantinople with its spina.



​"Circi" is obviously a Roman circus. The word "Martial" reminds me the Campus Martius, while the Appian Way (Appian Way - Wikipedia) is a famous Italian and Roman landmark. The Campus Martius was located north of the Capitoline Hill (Capitoline Hill - Wikipedia), while the Appian Way began its course near Porta Capena, a gate in the Servian Wall which was near the Circus Maximus (Circus Maximus - Wikipedia), the hippodrome of Rome, located south of the Palatine Hill (Palatine Hill - Wikipedia). I think this last is the optimal position if Piranesi engraved something really existing.



​It seems that Piranesi's point of view was near Porta Capena and therefore the palaces represented should be those on the Palatine Hill.





​The central palace in Piranesi's painting could be the Palace of Domitian (Palace of Domitian - Wikipedia) composed by the Domus Flavia, the Domus Augustana and the garden or "stadium".








​Could this palace be represented on the Hereford map (Hereford Mappa Mundi - Wikipedia) to symbolize Rome?



​But if all of this is true, then the enormous palace behind the Palace of Domitian should be a representation of the famous Domus Aurea (Domus Aurea - Wikipedia) built by the Emperor Nero and said to be a vast landscaped palace!!! It is placed exactly in the position where it should have been, where the Colosseum is located nowadays.





​If we assume that Piranesi was representing Rome, then there are a lot of things to add. In the painting we can clearly see how the Appian way and the Circus Maximus are the same. The road doesn't end or begin near the circus but it continues in the distance with other palaces and also two pyramids on the right (if we imagine to walk in that direction). I have prolonged the hypothetical Appian Way on the map of Rome in the same direction indicated by Piranesi and the result is quite interesting.



​As you can see the road hits perfectly the Vatican on the top left of the map! But this is not all. This road overlaps with the course of the Tiber River and in particular it entirely encomprises Tiber Island (Tiber Island - Wikipedia).



​I have circled in red Pons Cestius (Pons Cestius - Wikipedia), an "ancient" Roman bridge, while in blue the Great Synagogue of Rome (Great Synagogue of Rome - Wikipedia). Now more or less in the position of the blue circle in Piranesi's painting we see a pyramid, the first one on the right! One could say that there is no certainty that the pyramid was placed there, but there is a very peculiar particular: the name of the bridge! Isn't it strange that the bridge is named after the same family that gave its name to to the Pyramid of Cestius (Pyramid of Cestius - Wikipedia), built for Gaius Cestius Epulo? Should it be surprising to have a Great Synagogue in the same place where a pyramid stood?





​I think this _gens Cestia _(Cestia gens - Wikipedia) is one of those families to research with great attention.


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## Silveryou (Jan 14, 2021)

This is another of the fantasy engravings by Piranesi. I have seen it multiple times without giving it a proper look. It's called "Antiquus Bivi Viarum Appiae Et Ardeatinae Prospectus Ad II Lapidem Extra Portam Capenam" (roughly: "Ancient crossroad between the Appian Way and Ardeatina road. Perspective from the second milestone outside Porta Capena"). Once again the Appian Way, once again Porta Capena (Porta Capena - Wikipedia).



​This time though the point of view of the author is the opposite compared to the first engraving discussed, with the Circus Maximus and Palatine Hill behind his back. On the right it is represented Via Ardeatina (Via Ardeatina - Wikipedia), another "ancient" Roman road which started from the Appian Way, apparently at the second mile from the centre of Rome. The modern Via Ardeatina is said to have a different initial path, but is not difficult to understand what the ancient road here represented is called today.








The initial path of Via Ardeatina ran alongside the Servian Wall (Servian Wall - Wikipedia) outside of Porta Capena and nowadays is named "Viale Guido Baccelli". At the convergence of the Appian and Ardeatina (now Viale delle Terme di Caracalla and Viale Guido Baccelli) we can find a sort of memorial with an inscription which I can't read (neither you). I have found no information and no image on the internet apart from this one "captured" by myself from GoogleMaps but I wonder if it has something to do with the "lapidem" described by Piranesi as the epigraph to the tombstone of the Scipiones (Cornelia gens - Wikipedia) or the second milestone.






This milestone is an interesting aspect in itself, because we have no clue of the exact measure equivalent to a Roman mile. It is empirically estimated to have been around 1.481 meters (1,620 yards, 4,860 English feet, 0.92 English miles); compared with a modern mile, which is 5280 feet (Roman mile - Wiktionary). Therefore two Roman miles should have been equivalent to 2.962 meters (9.720 feet). In "ancient" Rome, the count of miles started from the Milliarium Aureum (Milliarium Aureum - Wikipedia) located in the Temple of Saturn in the Roman Forum, but it is apparent that this measure does not fit with the real distance between the two points.



​We can see that the best case scenario gives us roughly 1.490 meters for two miles, not one (it would have been perfect in that case). That means 745 meters (2.444 feet) was possibly the value of one Roman mile. But what about the distance from the Vatican (considering the direct path supposed in the previous post)?



​3.500 meters for two miles means 1.750 meters (5.741 feet) for one Roman mile. Is it better? Is the Vatican the real Temple of Saturn?

Anyway the most famous ruins in this part of Rome are certainly the Baths of Caracalla (Baths of Caracalla - Wikipedia), which placed in between the two roads, would be covered by the buildings at the forefront of the engraving. And what do you see _behind _these buildings? A huge pyramid, obviously!





​By the way, the Umbilicus Urbis Romae (Umbilicus urbis Romae - Wikipedia), "Navel of the City of Rome" was the symbolic centre of the city. This word sounds similar to _obelisk. _Could St. Peter's Square (St. Peter's Square - Wikipedia) be considered the centre of the city and the world? Urbi et Orbi (Urbi et Orbi - Wikipedia)!!! Obelisk or Umbilicus?


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## veeall (Jan 15, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> But if all of this is true, then the enormous palace behind the Palace of Domitian should be a representation of the famous Domus Aurea (Domus Aurea - Wikipedia) built by the Emperor Nero and said to be a vast landscaped palace!!! It is placed exactly in the position where it should have been, where the Colosseum is located nowadays.



There's engraving of Colosseum attributed to Piranesi. Just judging by the city map the Colosseum shouldn't be visible in the engraving (?).

Fascinating to read the translation of the title of the engravings, they basically claim the depicted views being non-fictional.


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## Silveryou (Jan 15, 2021)

veeall said:


> Fascinating to read the translation of the title of the engravings, they basically claim the depicted views being non-fictional.


Yes. We can say that even if these buildings could be just a fantasy reconstruction by Piranesi, the location is not a fantasy at all. It is baffling to me that no one has apparently ever come up with these simple observations. After my first post I have searched on some Italian websites to see if someone has some clue about this stuff and I have found that even though sometimes someone shows knowledge of the location (only about the Circus Maximus, by the way), no one investigates futher. I bet there are lots of things to search...



veeall said:


> There's engraving of Colosseum attributed to Piranesi. Just judging by the city map the Colosseum shouldn't be visible in the engraving (?).


The funny thing is that the Domus Aurea and the Colosseum are mutually exclusive, because it is said that the Colosseum was built in place of a truly enormous statue of Nero (Colossus of Nero - Wikipedia). I think this statue would fit well in these engravings. Just look at the abundance of statues, busts and heads of enormous dimensions in all these "fantasy" pictures. So I think that Piranesi had some accurate informations to do his thing, and even though he could have something wrong, his work should be considered with great attention.


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## Silveryou (Jan 16, 2021)

"The Prisons (Carceri d'invenzione or Imaginary Prisons) is a series of 16 prints by the Italian artist Giovanni Battista Piranesi in the 18th century. They depict enormous subterranean vaults with stairs and mighty machines." (Imaginary Prisons - Wikipedia)

































​Where these prisons were supposed to be, besides the chaotic mind of our dear artist?  We are obviously talking about an underground setting here, but we can maybe deduce the location from some details. First of all, let's say that the word _prisons_ translates as _carceri_ in Italian and _carceres _in Latin. Today we are shown places of "ancient" Rome which somehow represent these prisons, like the modest Mamertine Prison (Mamertine Prison - Wikipedia), behind San Giuseppe dei Falegnami church.







​But if there is a thing everyone knows from history books, novels, movies and so on, is that Rome was built _upon _slave labour. Slaves were everywhere but in prison: in the houses of the nobility (working as barbers, butlers, cooks, hairdressers...), in urban workplaces (fullers, engravers, shoemakers, bakers...), in farms, mines, quarries and, most importantly, _circuses _(Slavery in ancient Rome - Wikipedia). Is it just a coincidence the similarity between the words _circus _and _carcerem_? Can we find a connection of sort?





​In the image above we can see a modern reconstruction of the _carceres _of _Circus _Maximus, complete with its track-side seatings upon them, which form a slope with a certain degree. Where did we see that slope?








​What is hidden under Palatine Hill? With an height of 40 meters (131 feet), the fantasy prisons of Piranesi would certainly fit beneath it. It would be interesting to understand what type of job these slaves/gladiators/prisoners did in those prisons/carceres/circuses. What kind of purpose those "engines and machinery, wheels, cables, pulleys, levers, catapults, etc." depicted by Piranesi in his 16 _capricci _above were supposed to serve?



​"In 1852 a gas works was built on the site by the Anglo-Italian Gas Society. It remained in situ until 1910 when it was relocated to the edge of Rome." (Circus Maximus - Wikipedia)


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## EUAFU (Jan 16, 2021)

Excellent topic and subsequent posts also.

You are true researchers.


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## veeall (Jan 17, 2021)

I've been looking into these Carcere engravings, and what stands out for me are:

very undisciplined strokes compared to other engravings of Piranesi (attributed to illness)
ropes and hooks and some structures are drawn over others as afterthoughts
absurdity of a proposal as concept-prisons
few are actually aboveground 'street' views of a city

They seem as discarded mediocre scetches later decorated with torture machinery. The additions in the second edition is drawn with the same clumsy hand. Originally we see  some colonnade with an obelisk in the middle:






Maybe they are forgeries, and Piranesi was not a fantasy-artist.
Other Piranesi engravings are of higher quality.
A structure drawn from two different angles.







Buried structures (not related, but just interesting).


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## Silveryou (Jan 17, 2021)

veeall said:


> few are actually aboveground 'street' views of a city


True. I'll look for this bell tower. I wonder if these "Prisons (Carceri d'invenzione or Imaginary Prisons)" were really intended by the author as a series in itself or if his reviewers compiled it to add more confusion.



​


veeall said:


> absurdity of a proposal as concept-prisons


This kind of argument I thought it was used to discard these engravings so that no one go and see what they represent. They have done a good job because knowing how many Roman nationalists live in Rome, I think they would talk about this every day (I am repenting for what I am doing?).

Anyway, in the past days I've seen a lot of different versions of the same engravings. Apparently they did many copies in which some details were changed, expecially the writings and symbols. As for the fantasy landscapes there are only two possibilities, after having established that the locations are real. The first is that Piranesi was reconstructing something ancient based on his knowledge of the past (and obviously enriching his work with catchy details), the second (I don't believe that) is that these engravings were much older and then attributed to him to hide them in plain sight. As for the engravings of ruins, they are used by mainstream people without a problem because they are "harmless".


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## veeall (Jan 17, 2021)

Of course i'm no  expert, but here what i had in mind when talking about 'undisciplined strokes'. Normal clouds:




clouds in Carcere:





He is very precise and without redundancy even in the darkest of shadows, what made him change his style so much in Carcere series?





Just two pompous interiors:







So if they were like this due to sickness, then maybe the second and successive editions of these works should be more in-line with authors usual handwriting, but it doesn't seem to be so. Not knowing the period the engravings below were made, but both source and the cropped motive still exhibits these loose strokes.









---
In Athens: While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that *the city was full of idols*.

Lol, how much is 'full', and which of those are idols?


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## Silveryou (Jan 17, 2021)

Yes I noticed. I had to choose the clearest images for the presentations.










​Here you can see three different types of the same engraving with the last two evidently fakes. If you see them side by side you can spot the fake, otherwise it is very difficult to tell.







​


veeall said:


> In Athens: While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that *the city was full of idols*.


I like these engravings because they talk about that lost world. It seems to me that they want us to think these are all fantasies at all costs.


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## daniloscarinci (Jan 18, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> In the past days, while searching KD's blog (Section listhttps://www.stolenhistory.org/articles/the-ptb-history-fabrication-tools.480/#post-509), I found a very interesting engraving by Piranesi (Giovanni Battista Piranesi - Wikipedia) that can possibly reveal some information on the past of the city of Rome. It's called "Antiquus Circi Martial. Cum Monum. Adiacentia Prospectus Ad Viam Appiam" (roughly: "Ancient Martial Circus with Monuments. Perspective near the Appian Way") and it is supposed to be a fantasy by the author.
> 
> View attachment 5491​
> What struck me was that strange and unusual line of obelisks and bizarre structures in the middle of the engraving. I recognised immediately the typical _spina _(Roman circus - Wikipedia) of the hippodromes of the past. Here below is represented the Hippodrome of Constantinople with its spina.
> ...


This is the kind of research we need more here at SH. It could be wrong, but this methodology will take us somewhere. I totally respect everyone's religions, but if one selects only facts or evidences that go along with what their religion states, they'll only please their mind and not get closer to the truth (which , of course, is unattainable). Congrats!


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## Silveryou (Jan 18, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> In the image above we can see a modern reconstruction of the carceres of Circus Maximus, complete with its track-side seatings upon them, which form a slope with a certain degree.



First of all, for the sake of clarity, the _carceres _(Roman circus - Wikipedia) were not under the track-side seatings of the circus, because they were supposed to be the gates from which the chariots started their race (I didn't find the sources for these statements though, to see if these are modern deductions or have a foundation in some classic authors).





​These carceres were nonetheless next to the _caveae _(Cavea - Wikipedia), the tracksides of the circus, which on the Italian wiki are said to have been a term to designate the underground of those public spaces, and only later became the place where people sat to watch the races. Therefore we have a hint to the possibility that the word _cavea _was never used to describe the undergrounds “where the cages for the beasts” were placed, because the best name to give to those places with cages would have been _carceres _(prisons).







​These images above show the caveae of two Roman amphitheatres (the third being Circus Maximus) and on the wiki it is specified that caveae were the tracksides of theatres and amphitheatres, no circuses mentioned. But it is easy to see that the name was also used for circuses by looking at the description of Circus Maximus (Circus Maximus - Wikipedia). This to show how there is a sort of confusion on terminology, expecially when you see that the caveae (as tracksides) were used by the _equites _(Equites - Wikipedia), the knights, to watch horse-races! This confusion of terms and meanings is quite unique but not rare when we talk of “ancient” languages. Is it possible that the original meaning of certain words may have been changed on purpose? Anyway the images above resemble a lot the arches of Piranesi's prisons, and you can also see the lions!






One of the features of these circuses were the _pulvinaria _(Glossary of ancient Roman religion - Wikipedia), “a special couch used for displaying images of the gods, that they might receive offerings at ceremonies such as the lectisternium or supplicatio” and “At the Circus Maximus, the couches and images of the gods were placed on an elevated pulvinar to "watch" the games”. On the Italian wiki it is explicitly stated that the pulvinar was the seat of honour for the Emperor to watch the games.





​Is it possible to find the pulvinar in Piranesi's engravings? I would say yes!





​This is Sant'Anastasia al Palatino (Sant'Anastasia al Palatino - Wikipedia), a Roman Catholic basilica built in the late 3rd century AD - early 4th century AD. As the name suggests, it is located at the foot of Palatine Hill next to Circus Maximus. I had recently stated my suspicion in regard to the original function of the structure known today as Porta Nigra in Trier (Black Gate), but I probably have to reconsider my position (even though I am against the brutal destruction of the past to recover an even more ancient past). It seems to me that this church was a gate of sort too, as you can see in these images.







​And one can also say that a church could be considered a pulvinar, “a special couch used for displaying images of the gods, that they might receive offerings at ceremonies such as the lectisternium or supplicatio”. The relative position of the church and the ruins of the spina of Circus Maximus (if it was a circus in the first place!) is almost identical to that represented by Piranesi.


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## Silveryou (Jan 19, 2021)

Considering Sant'Anastasia al Palatino as the pulvinar of Circus Maximus allows us to search for the other gate represented in the engraving. I previously stated (Ancient Rome according to Piranesi and others) that the Great Synagogue of Rome (Great Synagogue of Rome - Wikipedia) was placed where the pyramid once stood, but with a better look we can identify this synagogue with the gate near Pons Cestius and Tiber Island.








​"The present synagogue was constructed shortly after the unification of Italy in 1870, when the Kingdom of Italy captured Rome and the Papal States ceased to exist" (I didn't expect that, a real surprise...). "The building which had previously housed the ghetto synagogue, a complicated structure housing five _scolas_ (the Italian-Jewish term for synagogues) in a single building was demolished" (never heard about scolas before but it is obviously way too similar to the word _school, _and on the Italian wiki they are called _la Castigliana, la Catalana, la Siciliana, la Nova e l'Italiana... _language schools?). Where these "complicated" scolas were located is not specified and in fact it's not clear to understand if these five scolas were in different parts of Rome or in a single building in the Roman ghetto, which was nearby the modern synagogue. We will see later where Piazza delle Cinque Scole (Cinque Scole Square) is nowadays. In the meantime we can see how the new buiding has overall retained the same shape of that on Piranesi's engraving, even though it is no more aligned to the hypotetical "ancient" road.





​In another interesting engraving by Piranesi we can see this "complicated" gate/temple in between the "ancient" Theater of Marcellus and Theatre of Balbus. The structure, with a perfect alignement to the imaginary road starting from Circus Maximus, has no name and I have not founded an explanatory image for the number 29 upon the building.



​While searching this topic I learned that Piranesi draw a map of Rome based upon a supposedly "ancient" marble map called Forma Urbis Romae (Forma Urbis Romae - Wikipedia). Here below we can see a piece of the presumed original with the word THEATRUM. Notice how the inscriptions copied by Piranesi are always written with great clarity, the words separated one from each other, and compare this style with the wordings on the Arch of Titus, in which words were written in a continuous line without gaps between words, as in the "fashion" of Roman inscriptions. "The Plan was gradually destroyed during the Middle Ages, with the marble stones being used as building materials or for making lime. In 1562, the young antiquarian sculptor Giovanni Antonio Dosio excavated fragments of the _Forma Urbis_ from a site near the Church of SS. Cosma e Damiano, under the direction of the humanist _condottiere_ Torquato Conti, who had purchased excavation rights from the canons of the church. Conti made a gift of the recovered fragments to Cardinal Alessandro Farnese, who entrusted them to his librarian Onofrio Panvinio and his antiquarian Fulvio Orsini."








​Rodolfo Amedeo Lanciani (Rodolfo Lanciani - Wikipedia) revised the map of "ancient" Rome (Forma Urbis Romae di Rodolfo Lanciani - Le LXVI tavole), giving it the same name, Forma Urbis Romae (just a coincidence), between 1893 and 1901 and bringing it to perfection: "a unique work within the genre". The strange building and the Theatre of Balbus are no more represented and we can clearly see in their place the "ancient" Roman Ghetto (Roman Ghetto - Wikipedia). The Great Synagogue of Rome was built from 1901 to 1904...





​Could the history of Rome have been manipulated two times, instead of one or zero (or three, who knows!)? The first one by the (possibly) new Christian faith during the 15th - 16th centuries, the other one being still very "fresh" (19th - 20th centuries)... and accomplished by whom (hehehehe ?‍)? I believe so. Maybe!


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## veeall (Jan 19, 2021)

Silveryou said:


>



Probably due to my ignorance, but i could really lol about how these pieces are fit together. Especially the large chunk on left put on top of others.


---
Is this also the site of Circo Massimo?




---
Few more editions just for fun:









​


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## Silveryou (Jan 19, 2021)

veeall said:


> Is this also the site of Circo Massimo?


Yes


veeall said:


> Few more editions just for fun


hahaha. I'll edit with my face next time


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## Safranek (Jan 19, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> Conti made a gift of the recovered fragments to Cardinal Alessandro Farnese, who entrusted them to his librarian Onofrio Panvinio and his antiquarian Fulvio Orsini



What a nice reliable lot we have here. At least 3 of those are 'black nobility' families; Conti, Farnese and Orsini all having popes and cardinals in the family. If these guys are messing with the antiquities we can certainly assume a massive effort at deception. Why are we not surprised when our historical info comes from the top deceivers? 

*Just a few examples:*

During the Middle Ages, the *Conti* were notable, including four who became popes:

Pope Innocent III (1160 or 1161 – 16 July 1216), born Lotario de' Conti, was the head of the Catholic Church from 8 January 1198 to his death in 1216.[2]
Pope Gregory IX (1227–1241), born Ugolino di Conti[3]
Pope Alexander IV (1254–1261), born Rinaldo di Conti[4]
Pope Innocent XIII (1721–1724), born Michelangelo di Conti[5]
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes_from_the_Conti_family*
_______________________________________________

*Pope Paul III* (Latin: _Paulus Tertius_; February 29, 1468 – November 10, 1549), born *Alessandro Farnese*, was an Italian priest of the Roman Catholic Church and the 221st Pope from 1534 to 1549.[1]

_______________________________________________

*Orsini popes*

Pope Celestine III (Giacinto Bobone, created cardinal in 1144)
Pope Nicholas III (Giovanni Gaetano Orsini, created cardinal in 1244)
Pope Benedict XIII (Pietro Francesco Orsini, created cardinal in 1672)
The Orsini family also produced 34 Cardinals of the Roman Church and many other important political and religious people.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Orsini
_____________________________________________

When you check on the level of corruption of some of these popes it makes you wonder how the Vatican can still have so many followers.


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## Silveryou (Jan 20, 2021)

Safranek said:


> Silveryou said:
> 
> 
> > Conti made a gift of the recovered fragments to Cardinal Alessandro Farnese, who entrusted them to his librarian Onofrio Panvinio and his antiquarian Fulvio Orsini
> ...


I would take all these dates, characters and stories as a big question mark though! I bet the Vatican is not a monolithic power representing one side for all these centuries. It seems to me that there are a lot of layers to the story. Anyway I was thinking about the Conti in particular in these days because they are said to be the owners and builders of these two towers which are very interesting.





​They are called Torre dei Conti (Torre dei Conti - Wikipedia) and Torre delle Milizie (Torre delle Milizie - Wikipedia) and they are said to be medieval fortresses. Their position falls almost perfectly in the area once occupied by the Domus Aurea as represented by Piranesi (my interpretation obviously), expecially Torre dei Conti.








​It seems to me that these "towers" could actually be what remains of the cyclopic columns of the Domus Aurea and that the access to this building from the main road was between Palatine Hill (on the right) and Capitoline Hill (on the left). You can see in Piranesi's picture the stairs apparently going down between the two hills/palaces.



​And the details of Torre dei Conti are interesting if compared to Piranesi's engraving, with those particular "vertical channels" (!?!?! - I am not an architect). Were these towers simply the columns of the Domus Aurea?


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## Silveryou (Jan 21, 2021)

​We are now looking for the pyramid. We have seen that its most probable location was somewhere behind the "gate" corresponding to the modern Great Synagogue. In the proximity the most famous building is certainly the Pantheon (Pantheon, Rome - Wikipedia), which I think it is represented in front of the pyramid. Or maybe not?








​If we assume the distance between the gates as almost identical, we can try to locate the third gate that we see in the distance.








​The "gate" is no more there, but we see a street, Via dei Baullari, that leads us to an important roman square, Campo de' Fiori. The position of the pyramid relatively to that of the "second" and "third" gates is therefore quite difficult to ascertain and therefore its position in present Rome could be anywhere from the proximity of the Pantheon (even above it) to the river Tiber. It is however noteworthy that this area has the higher density of Egyptian/Roman obelisks/columns: the Obelisco agonale (Obelisco Agonale - Wikipedia), the Column of Marcus Aurelius (Column of Marcus Aurelius - Wikipedia), the Obelisk of Montecitorio (Obelisk of Montecitorio - Wikipedia), the Elephant and Obelisk (Elephant and Obelisk - Wikipedia) and the Obelisco del Pantheon (Obelisco del Pantheon - Wikipedia).


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## Forrest (Jan 23, 2021)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_of_Cestius"The origins of the pyramid were forgotten during the Middle Ages. " The inscriptions are above dirt level, how could it be missed?
Notice dirt level, over 15' deep.




"Its true provenance was clarified by Pope Alexander VII's excavations in the 1660s, which cleared the vegetation that had overgrown the pyramid, uncovered the inscriptions on its faces" -wiki
So they had to excavate in order to clear vegetation? Nobody thought to brush aside the plants and read the large inscriptions before 1660? Then the plants grew back again for Piranesi?

The pinecones in the Piranesi drawing are a real thing. "Legend has it" the Vatican pinecone, Fontana della Pigna - Wikipedia , was in a fountain next to the Pantheon. There's another one, um-

"There is another fountain known as Fontana della Pigna in Rimini, Italy, also of Ancient Roman origin but heavily restored. The pine cone sculpture crowning this fountain was only installed in 1807, replacing a 16th-century statue of St. Paul damaged by the Napoleonic army."

There are several Roman pyramids in this old map-


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## Silveryou (Jan 23, 2021)

Forrest said:


> "The origins of the pyramid were forgotten during the Middle Ages. " The inscriptions are above dirt level, how could it be missed?
> Notice dirt level, over 15' deep.


haha yeah! There's something really off with this pyramid. The fact that the bridge leading to Piranesi's pyramid is named after the Cestiuses is strange and it is strange that no informations remain of this family. But for me the most crazy thing of all is that it was included in the Aurelian Walls (Aurelian Walls - Wikipedia)! How can you decide to do it! What kind of tactician/strategist would ever do something so stupid! I don't even want to go and search what explanation they have come up because I'm sure it's cringy as Hell.


Forrest said:


> There are several Roman pyramids in this old map-


This map is fantastic. Can you give me the link?


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## Forrest (Jan 24, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> This map is fantastic. Can you give me the link?



I thought I could easily find the link for you, but it was not so easy. This is close La topografia di Roma / di Gio. Batta. Nolli ; Piranesi e Nolli incisero | Gallica 
Search old rome city map liggorio for other interesting things.


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## Silveryou (Jan 27, 2021)

​When I wrote this post (Ancient Rome according to Piranesi and others) I was aware of the fact that in the caption below Piranesi's engraving it was stated (at number 1) that there was a representation of the Tomb of the Scipios (Tomb of the Scipios - Wikipedia), which is located nowadays somewhat to the South-East compared to the position given by me. What convinced me to suppose a new location was the presence of a milestone in the picture indicating the second mile “Extra Portam Capenam”. I assumed that it was just a description of where the milestone was located (near Porta Capena) and that the count of miles would have started at the Milliarium Aureum. The other possible interpretation being that this was the second mile from Porta Capena. If we look at the shape of the crossroads, the South-Eastern location fits well with Piranesi's engraving as much as my own, even if the Tomb of the Scipios is not quite visible (but I didn't find the number 1 of the caption corresponding to the Tomb in any of the various copies of this engraving, so it was impossible to ascertain its position even in my own location). Here below I have called my first choice with number 1 and the “South-Eastern” with number 2. While in the first case scenario we had Viale delle Terme di Caracalla in the role of the Appian way and Viale Guido Baccelli in that of Via Ardeatina, we now have Via di Porta San Sebastiano (Appian Way) and the same Viale delle Terme di Caracalla in its new role as Via Ardeatina.












​But while I was searching for more informations to add, I found out that the Circus of Maxentius (Circus of Maxentius - Wikipedia), known until the 19th century as the Circus of Caracalla, is situated between the second and third miles of the Appian Way, with the tomb of Caecilia Metella (Tomb of Caecilia Metella - Wikipedia) as the three mile marker of the same road. We obviously have a representation of both by Piranesi.





​Wait a second! Between the second and third miles? Let's do a recap to better understand the problem. We have on one side a circus named after Maxentius which was previously known as Circus of Caracalla placed between the second and third miles of the Appian Way, and on the other side we have an engraving by Piranesi which represents the second milestone outside Porta Capena and in any case near the Baths of Caracalla (whether we consider option 1 or 2 as previously described, it doesn't affect the general concept). Instinct would tell to search for the Circus of Caracalla near the baths of the same name! So why did historians choose a far away location and rename the circus?



​First of all we should measure the distance between the supposed second mile (in both its supposed locations) and the third mile.












​The distance is about 3.750 meters (12.303 feet) for the short distance and 4.350 meters (14.272 feet) for the longest. This is too much for the current “scientific” theory which asserts that a Roman mile “is empirically estimated to have been around 1,481 meters (1,620 yards, 4,860 English feet, 0.92 English miles); compared with a modern mile, which is 5280 feet” (Roman mile - Wiktionary). I have not found the calculations used by historians to determine the position of the milestones and their distance from the Milliarium Aureum, the point from which every measure started in “ancient” Rome (Milliarium Aureum - Wikipedia), but we can try to figure out something. We subtract 1.481 meters starting from the tomb of Caecilia Metella and going in the direction of Rome on the Appian Way, searching for the hypothetic second milestone. What do we find?



​Nothing! Maybe time (2.000 years they say), weather, wars and tourists made the milestone disappear. Who knows! Let's try now doubling the measure (2.962 meters – 9.718 feet).





​Bingo! Porta San Sebastiano (Porta San Sebastiano - Wikipedia), “originally known as the Porta Appia, the gate sat astride the Appian Way, the regina viarum (queen of the roads), which originated at the Porta Capena in the Servian Wall”. What do we find near this gate? A copy made in 1910 of the first milestone of the Appian Way, founded in 1584  and standing in the right-hand boundary wall 100 meters after Porta San Sebastiano (Prima colonna miliaria - Sito ufficiale Parco Archeologico dell'Appia Antica - no English translations whatsoever, by the way). The first mile apparently stopped here from Porta Capena.





​Turning a blind eye on the 117 meters difference, we can anyway make a first statement: the choise to have the beginning of the counting of miles from outside Porta Capena directly contradicts the purpose of the Milliarium Aureum. “All roads were considered to begin at this monument and all distances in the Roman Empire were measured relative to it” (Cassius Dio 54.8.4; Plutarch, Galba 24.7; Pliny, Naturalis Historia 3.66; Tacitus, Historiae 1.27; Suetonius, Otho 6.2. - Milliarium Aureum - Wikipedia). What do historians use instead to support their claim? “According to a vague sentence by Pliny the Elder (Naturalis Historia, 3.66), the distances in Roman miles were measured starting from the city gates and not from the location of the Milliarium” (Milliarium Aureum - Wikipedia). A “vague sentence” which can be also used to validate the Milliarium Aureum as the centre of Rome, as you can see above! But let's continue our research and see if we can find traces of the particular crossroad depicted by Piranesi in this new scenario.








​Is it a joke? This is the same shape of the crossroad in the engraving, and that is Via Ardeatina! How can it be? It seems a joke to me and here is why (Via Ardeatina - Wikipedia – no English for you, my friends eheh). You can use your Google translate to obtain this: “Ancient itinerary - The Via Ardeatina separated from the Via Appia a short distance from the city and passed through the localities known today as Tor Marancia and Cecchignola until it reached the Solfarata , at the time a pool of cold sulphurous waters 15 Roman miles from the city. From here, the road proceeded towards Ardea with a path identical to that followed by the modern road”. What does it mean? We don't need to follow all the itinerary of the ancient road. The beginning will be enough (Tor Marancia).





​I have indicated with numbers 1 and 2 my hypotetical reconstructions as mentioned before. You can see the hypotetical path of the “ancient” Via Ardeatina passing through Tor Marancia, but what his the name of the gate through which the road passes? Porta Ardeatina (Porta Ardeatina - Wikipedia)!!






So in the end, it seems to me that there is a deliberate effort to hide the original locations and replace them with new and similar ones. The reproduction of the same shape of the crossroad between the modern Via Ardeatina and the Appian Way is too much.

Now the task is to calculate the Roman mile and searching for the Circus of Caracalla...


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## Forrest (Jan 27, 2021)

Finally tracked down the fantastic map by searching on Antique Urbis Romae Ligorio Pirro map
http://socks-studio.com/2016/03/13/...imago-image-of-the-ancient-city-of-rome-1561/
Pirro Ligorio - Wikipedia "*Pirro Ligorio* (c. 1512—October 30, 1583) ... worked as the Vatican's Papal Architect under Popes Paul IV and Pius IV...
" Ligorio's employment at the Vatican was briefly interrupted in the summer of 1565 when he was imprisoned for one week. Allegedly, he had committed fraud by stealing building materials during several of his papal architectural projects. He was investigated extensively and had his writings removed. He was released with little incident, aside from having medallions worth six thousand _scudi_ removed from his possession. Accusations like these, however, did not help Ligorio's already controversial fame and earlier allegations of forgery against him. "

"Jul 19, 2020 - In 1551, *Pirro* *Ligorio* produced an engraving depicting a reconstruction of ancient Rome; this inventive *map* was printed by Jacopo Rossi in 1561. *Pirro* *Ligorio* was an architect, a painter, a counterfeiter and a scholar" Pirro Ligorio’s “Antiquae Urbis Romae Imago” (Image of the Ancient... | Rome map, Ancient, Ancient cities

Piranesi looks like he was a company with a number of apprentices and assistants, judging by the work product. One of them- say Piranesi- had an extreme and rare ability to visualize with precision in three dimensions, beyond Da Vinci's or Michelangelo's, for example. The Pontiff Maximus (the Pope) evidently hired him, in 1748 by the printed date, just as with Ligorio earlier, to make an accurate map of Rome.
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53039292m/f1.item


The above it the title or description of this map. It's tedious to translate into English, but might be worth it. At the bottom is a scale of some sort, maybe related to the Roman mile-


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## Silveryou (Jan 27, 2021)

Thank you. I had found some stuff by myself but didn't have time to look at it properly. Anyway it seems to me that the 16th century for Rome is the century in which everything was turned upside down. I am finding so many dates and clues in these days that I find difficult to clear my mind and write something.


Forrest said:


> Piranesi looks like he was a company with a number of apprentices and assistants, judging by the work product.


He had also a son who did the same job of his dad and took an interest in the Circus of Caracalla (Francesco Piranesi - Wikipedia).


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## Forrest (Jan 27, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> Thank you. I had found some stuff by myself but didn't have time to look at it properly. Anyway it seems to me that the 16th century for Rome is the century in which everything was turned upside down. I am finding so many dates and clues in these days that I find difficult to clear my mind and write something.
> 
> 
> Forrest said:
> ...



Fyi, I have here a tab still open from a couple days ago- Circus of Maxentius - Infogalactic: the planetary knowledge core
The features on these maps, they shift around, they come and go, sometimes intact, sometimes in ruins, renamed, re-purposed, made up, and almost forgotten. It's a sort of board game trying to sort it out.


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## Silveryou (Jan 27, 2021)

Forrest said:


> The above it the title or description of this map. It's tedious to translate into English, but might be worth it. At the bottom is a scale of some sort, maybe related to the Roman mile-


The first is just Piranesi thanking his client, cardinal Alessandro Albani. The second is the title of that engraving.

But I find interesting the names given to the cardinal: "Emo e Rmo Principe". It reminds me Romulus and Remus, the first being the founder of Rome. I've just googled it without finding any kind of explanation except one interesting detail... It was frequently used for Cardinal Enea Silvio Piccolomini (Pope Pius II) which had the same name of the ancestor of the twins who escaped from Troy... I mean Aeneas escaped

Wait. Yes it's a scale of sort. I'm gonna look at it.

 That Enea Silvio Piccolomini is not the one who became Pope though, but another less famous who lived in the 18th century (Enea Silvio Piccolomini (cardinale) - Wikipedia)... strange


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## Forrest (Jan 27, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> Forrest said:
> 
> 
> > The above it the title or description of this map. It's tedious to translate into English, but might be worth it. At the bottom is a scale of some sort, maybe related to the Roman mile-
> ...



Thank you. Another rabbit hole, sadly off topic- Alessandro Albani - Infogalactic: the planetary knowledge core
"Alessandro's father, Orazio, was the brother of Pope Clement XI ... Albani developed into one of the most astute antiquarians of his day, an arbiter of taste in the appreciation of Roman sculpture, and "*a powerful and enterprising collector of Roman antiquities* and patron of the arts... He used both ancient and modern art as a form of cultural capital," Seymour Howard observed,[3] "giving away acquisitions as favours and *selling them for perpetually needed funds* or when they lost efficacy for him." " Sounds like a forger.
He also funded Anton Raphael Mengs - Wikipedia , who has an interesting memorial in Rome Anton Raphael Mengs - Wikipedia
For additional entertainment, Mengs painted _The Triumph of History over Time_ on the ceiling Vatican Library


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## Silveryou (Jan 27, 2021)

Forrest said:


> Silveryou said:
> 
> 
> > Forrest said:
> ...


It sounds like it. But was it? Piranesi is giving us some precious info, sponsored by Albani... Maybe his biography was written by his enemies? That's another rabbit hole!


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## Knowncitizen (Jan 27, 2021)

Rome was a ruined city inside a Star Fort in 1593 according to this map. I'm not sure anything they tell us about Rome's time line is correct.



https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/381436This one is apparently 1550


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## Silveryou (Jan 27, 2021)

Knowncitizen said:


> This one is apparently 1550


Here Porta Capena is depicted where is Porta San Sebastiano, previously known as Porta Appia. It seems a fake to me, expecially after all the talk in these posts..., and also by seeing where it comes from?

Anyway, here below is a famous painting by François Dubois, "Le Massacre de la Saint-Barthélemy". Am I the only one seeing a circus-hippodrome in this picture, with its carceres and spina? How many massacres happened in these hippodromes and why cavalry is always involved? There's something really odd with the conventional narrative...



​Here below Giorgio Vasari's "First and Second Night of Saint Bartholomew" (1573 - commissioned by Pope Gregory XIII). Look at the "ancient" Roman fashion, especially in the second one. And also the building in the background (in the second one) is incredibly similar to the first building of the "spina" in "Le Massacre de la Saint-Barthélemy" by François Dubois (the previous painting).


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## Silveryou (Jan 28, 2021)

If you want to know how myths are created out of thin air you just have to come to Italy. Yesterday I posted about the possible duplication of places (Ancient Rome according to Piranesi and others) and today, after digging a little bit more, I have found other informations regarding the milestones and the nonsense produced by historians.

First of all some geography. In the actual city of Rome exist two roads with the name Ardeatina. One is called Viale di Porta Ardeatina, which runs along the Aurelian Wall near Porta Ardeatina, and the other is Via Ardeatina (the new one) which we have seen in the previous post and proceeding from the Appian Way (creating another duplicate of the ancient crossroad).



​The Italian wiki (Via Ardeatina - Wikipedia – here translated) says: “Modern itinerary - Born as a branch of the Via Appia Antica , it originates from the latter at Porta Ardeatina and extends for several kilometers in the territory of the homonymous park”. FALSE. As you can see in the image below the modern road begins 1.220 meters (4.003 feet) after Porta Ardeatina and is not aligned with it (a proof that it is not the original one).



​The modern myth in question is spreading through Italian blogs and websites (Il primo miglio della Via Appia, un luogo strettamente connesso con le origini mitiche dell’Urbe - Capitolivm; Una camminata da antichi romani sull’Appia Antica; La "Regina Viarum": la via Appia Antica (II e III miglio)) probably after the publication of a book (Il paesaggio della Via Appia ai confini dell'Urbs) in which it is stated that the supposed first Roman mile (assumed to be marked by the milestone outside Porta San Sebastiano due to some evident error, as we have seen in the previous post), can be nonchalantly be considered the church of Santa Maria in Palmis too, also known as Chiesa del Domine Quo Vadis (Santa Maria in Palmis - Wikipedia), due to the uncertainty in the measure of the Roman mile itself. I don't know what kind of acrobatic reasoning is done in that book but the location of this church is quite interesting. We have seen that Porta Capena magically transforms into Porta San Sebastiano and the crossroad between the Appian Way and Via Ardeatina has been magically dislocated from the vicinity of the Baths of Caracalla to the Roman countryside. The first milestone (second one in Piranesi's engraving, due to the fact that the count of miles began at the Milliarium Aureum) changed location as well from the whereabouts of Porta Capena to the whereabouts of Porta San Sebastiano and now it has become a church, no milestones needed anymore! So... where is this church?









Oh no! Again!!! At this point the question is clear... Is all of this just a coincidence or is it an intended attempt to hide something? I bet in the future they will find some _*“ancient” *_ruins of a gate nearby and they will call it _*“Porta Capena”*_.


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## Bitbybit (Jan 28, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> Thank you. I had found some stuff by myself but didn't have time to look at it properly. Anyway it seems to me that the 16th century for Rome is the century in which everything was turned upside down. I am finding so many dates and clues in these days that I find difficult to clear my mind and write something.



Perhaps a year ago i read some old depictions of Rome, alleged to be written around 1500s. And in that authors eyes, Rome had been largely evacuated a time ago or people have died, and Rome was repopulated within the old ruins.  It could've been the black plague.  I have thought of that texts for many times, but i cant remember how i found it.

I am still trying to figure out what grecoroman-architecture in Rome/mediterreana are really ancient, what was renovated, and what was copied.


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## Silveryou (Jan 28, 2021)

Even in history books it is said that Rome went from 1.000.000 citizens to 50.000. But the possibility of an entire substitution is entirely possible and I am totally sure that Romans of today have nothing to do with those of antiquity (or anyway very little to do with them).



Bitbybit said:


> I am still trying to figure out what grecoroman-architecture in Rome/mediterreana are really ancient, what was renovated, and what was copied.


Yes. I think it has become the entire objective of this thread. The mysterious disappearance and lack of testimonies (modern and ancient) for this road Ardeatina and the extraordinary coincidence of the same shape of crossroads with the same names subsequently changed is quite astonishing!


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## Safranek (Jan 28, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> Even in history books it is said that Rome went from 1.000.000 citizens to 50.000. But the possibility of an entire substitution is entirely possible and I am totally sure that Romans of today have nothing to do with those of antiquity (or anyway very little to do with them).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can't quote any references at the moment but I read some sources where all the 'architecture' or Rome and most of Italy was attributed to the Etruscans. I think it may have been Mario Alinei's work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Alinei
And this from the Wiki Talk page:

*Vote for Deletion*
_This article survived a Vote for Deletion. The discussion can be found here. -Splash 00:57, 4 August 2005 (UTC) 

Paleolithic Continuity Theory appears to be taken seriously by at least 11 academic writers.  Is this overlooked simply because the haplessly monolingual majority of English wikipedia editors cannot read most of the papers? All I've seen on wikipedia thus far is a lot of hand-waving by essentially anonymous wikipedia editors that Mario Alinei is a lunatic on the fringe and is considered so by everybody... without a single citation to that effect, of course.  If indeed this seemingly highly respected and widely acknowledge professor is universally disgraced on account of his more recent theories, it should be rather trivial to show citations to that effect.  I'd love to see some... --198.103.167.20 (talk) 15:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC) _

So there are 'forces' that want his name out our Wiki and his research gone.

Here's another link that quotes one of his publications:

https://www.rastko.rs/filologija/alinei/malinei-continuity.html


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## Silveryou (Jan 29, 2021)

Safranek said:


> Silveryou said:
> 
> 
> > Even in history books it is said that Rome went from 1.000.000 citizens to 50.000. But the possibility of an entire substitution is entirely possible and I am totally sure that Romans of today have nothing to do with those of antiquity (or anyway very little to do with them).
> ...


Thank you for the sources. I'll look into Alinei's work. I have read a good part of the link you provided and I have to say that it is interesting in certain aspects but it smells a little too much of nationalism for me. And I mean modern nationalism (I've never found a better word but the best that I can think is _statalism_ as opposed to "ancient" nationalism as a racial and cultural entity, which I like). When an Italian speaks about continuity is generally trying to say that Italians have always been the way they are today from millenia and therefore Romans and Etruscans are Italians, case closed. I think instead that modern Italians are just the product of many events and that Etruscans, Romans and possibly (maybe) Latins came from somewhere else and I would say the first two came from the North, as opposed to some theories who want them from the Middle-East. This is my bias, if you want.
I can take something from everyone but for me it's important to take always into consideration _myths_ (because I think that myths are history) and _New Chronology_ (because even if Fomenko, for me, is not right in many things, he has nevertheless opened the doors to something big with which historians will have to deal sooner or later).


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## Safranek (Jan 29, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> I have to say that it is interesting in certain aspects but it smells a little too much of nationalism for me.



Strange, I was not left with such impression at all. I would remember that, as I will remember this from Fomenko. But Alinei is not in the least bit like Fomenko, I found his hypothesis as presented to be based on solid ground and there's a bibliography of linguists and historians who lean in that direction. 

Consider that the most dangerous to the establishment are those scientists with high credentials, as their work can't be categorized as amateur. If they can't attack their science, they go for the person.

What alarms me is that the mainstream goes out of their way to ostracize this guy without so much as a valid argument. Since we KNOW history is a lie as presented to us, it would be a grave mistake to allow the work of those scientists who have stood up against them, to go unnoticed or be categorized as 'nationalist' or 'fringe' or 'pseudo', without the establishment even having to make the effort for a scientifically sound argument.  It seems all they have to do is add a label, enforce it and they have successfully prevented those whose interest is represented by the work from looking at it carefully and seriously, but most of all, scientifically.

My first and only question regarding his work is this: 

Is it possible that he is right? 

Based on my personal research I say yes, not only possible but highly more probable than the BS we've been given so far. So then, if he's right or close to it, then what? How does that fit into local and surrounding history? Would it give an appropriate model to how history evolved, one that's more appropriate then what we are given today?

______________________________________________

Briefly regarding Nationalism;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
*Nationalism*_ is an idea and movement that promotes the interests of a particular nation (as in a group of people),[1] especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland. Nationalism holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity[2] and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power (popular sovereignty).[1][3] It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,[4][5] and to promote national unity or solidarity.[1] Nationalism seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional cultures and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements.[6] *It also encourages pride in national achievements and is closely linked to patriotism.[7][8][page needed] Nationalism is often combined with other ideologies such as conservatism (national conservatism) or socialism (left-wing nationalism).*__*[2]*_

Consider the last two sentences in the Wiki definition with respect to this in two dictionaries;

https://www.britannica.com/topic/nationalism
*Nationalism*_,  ideology based on the premise that the individual’s loyalty and devotion to the nation-state surpass other individual or group interests._

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/nationalism
_*nationalism*
noun [ U ]

  social studies 
the feelings of affection and pride that people have for their country 

  politics & government 
Nationalism is also the desire for political independence in a country that is controlled by or part of another country:_


The Wiki definition gives a clear and thorough description of the word 'nationalism' up to the last two sentences where they bring in other factors, having the effect of partially negating the up-to-then positive definition which most people of the world would wholeheartedly agree with. From what I've seen, this definition is omitted from dictionaries, no healthy local cultural spirit allowed.

So without any further diversion from your excellent and studiously researched thread, I just wanted to stress this point of NOT letting the modern manipulation of words and the misuse of well-grounded research by potentially 'cointelpro' operatives derail from being able to consider purely the scientific evidence presented by researchers who have dared go against the grain. All 'they' have to do is tie their work to something negative and present them together.

Looking forward to the outcome of this thread. I suspect there is much more to be found.


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## Silveryou (Jan 30, 2021)

Safranek said:


> I suspect there is much more to be found.


A lot more to find!

This church, Chiesa del Domine Quo Vadis (Santa Maria in Palmis - Wikipedia), has an interesting story to tell. First of all “the current church is from 1637. The current façade was added in the 17th century”, and “there has been a sanctuary on the spot since the ninth century”. But “it has been supposed that the sanctuary might have been even more ancient, perhaps a Christian adaptation of some already existing temple: the church is in fact located just in front of the sacred _campus_ dedicated to Rediculus, the _Roman God of the Return_". Do you think it's Ridiculous? Listen to the whole story! “The two footprints on a marble slab at the center of the church — nowadays a copy of the original, which is kept in the nearby Basilica of San Sebastiano fuori le mura — are popularly held to be a miraculous sign left by Jesus”. On the Italian wiki (Chiesa del Domine quo vadis - Wikipedia): “Legend - The church is built on the spot where, according to an episode narrated in the Acts of Peter, the apostle Peter, who fled from Rome to escape Nero's persecution, met Jesus in a vision. According to this account, Peter asked Jesus the question "Domine, quo vadis?", Or "Lord, where are you going?", And to Jesus' answer, "Eo Romam iterum crucifigi", "I am going to Rome to be crucified again", Peter understood that he had to go back to face martyrdom".
Here below the true imprint of Jesus' feet (shoe number of 44/45 – don't know if it's the same around the world, anyway 27,5 cm), the _fake _on the left and the _authentic _on the right.





​Why am I talking about these details? To explain it we have to read the captions of Piranesi's engraving called "Antiquus Bivi Viarum Appiae Et Ardeatinae Prospectus Ad II Lapidem Extra Portam Capenam", the one in which the now notorious crossroad between the Appian Way and Via Ardeatina is depicted. At number 1 it says: “Lapide col nome di Milord, affisa al Sepolcro degli Scipioni” (roughly: tombstone with the name Milord, affixed upon the Tomb of the Scipios). I have not found where the number “1” is placed on the engraving, but we have already seen that the location of the Tomb is nowadays inside the second zone that I consider as the one depicted by Piranesi, so we can say that it at least fits well with the representation done by the artist.






​The Tomb of the Scipios (Tomb of the Scipios - Wikipedia) was rediscovered in 1614 in a vineyard: “The owner of the property in 1614 did not alter or further publicize the tomb. He must have resealed it, hid the entrance and kept its location a secret, for whatever reasons, as it disappeared from public knowledge and was lost again... In 1780 the then owners of the vineyard, the brothers Sassi, who apparently had no idea it was there, broke into the tomb again during remodelling of their wine cellar”. “The tomb was published in Rome in 1785 by Francesco Piranesi (Francesco Piranesi - Wikipedia) in Monumenti degli Scipioni. Francesco was completing a previous incomplete work by his father, Giovanni Battista Piranesi (Giovanni Battista Piranesi - Wikipedia), who died _in 1778_ (added by me! He died two years before the rediscovery!!!). The accuracy of the drawings in that work (actually, two works, by father and son – _they have to specify it_) leaves much to be desired (_I had no doubt this was their opinion_)”. In the article they fail to mention the engraving shown above in which Piranesi drew the Tomb way before it was _casually rediscovered_ (unless someone wants to take into consideration the first supposed discovery in 1614, a highly suspicious event). By the way, just for fun (or maybe not?) the article ends with “The tomb was subsequently neglected again (but not lost) until purchased by the city of Rome; in fact, there were reports of a gypsy family living in it”. Gypsies! Who are the gypsies?
Here below the _fantasy _and _idealized _plan of the Tomb of the Scipios by Piranesi (supposedly completed by his son!) and a look at the “Tomb” inhabited by nomad gypsies as it appeared in 1803 in a painting by Angelo Uggeri called “Tomb of Scipios” and as it appears now. Has this modern "monument" ever been a Tomb?








​So we can see that Piranesi had knowledge of the position of the Tomb near the crossroad between the Appian Way and Via Ardeatina (the true one). But now we have to tell why everything is Rediculus (Rediculus - Wikipedia): “Rediculus is an ancient Roman divinity. His cult had a temple near the Porta Capena, and a _campus_ on the Appian Way”. _*Porta Capena again!!! *_They tell us the _campus _is near the church Chiesa del Domine Quo Vadis and the modern crossroad between the Appian Way and Via Ardeatina but it's *FALSE. *The temple was where Piranesi drew it.
But let's continue. “This divinity is probably one of Rome's _lares_, a protector-god of the city. He is said to have appeared to Hannibal as he was camped outside Rome in 211 B.C., urging him to return (_redire_) to Carthage. Festus' account of the incident reports that Hannibal, nearing the city, saw apparitions in the air, filling him with dread and causing him to turn back immediately”.

Hannibal or Saint Peter? Who did they saw outside Porta Capena?


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## Silveryou (Jan 30, 2021)

Where the second milestone was located? We have seen that the modern opinion given by historians place the first milestone outside Porta San Sebastiano, informing us it is a copy from 1910 that replaced the original found in 1584 which is now on Capitoline Hill (Capitoline Hill - Wikipedia). Can we see this original from the year 1584? Yes. Here below you can see the original on the left and the copy on the right.





​It seems the 100 years copy is in a really bad shape when compared to the 2.000 years milestone. Under the original there is an inscription which assures us it was found in 1584 and transferred on Capitoline Hill.



​But there is something off in this story, in the same way we have seen for many other things. The position in which the milestone was transferred to is incredibly close to the famous Temple of Saturn where the Milliarium Aureum was placed in ancient times, the centre of Rome and starting point of the count of miles. By the way “It is certain that it was "hard by [under] the Temple of Saturn at the head of the Roman Forum", but its exact location is still unknown” (Milliarium Aureum - Wikipedia). Since we have seen how the real measure of the Roman mile is not well established, let's do some measurements using the positions of the original and the copy. Let's pretend that the original on the Capitoline Hill is the “ancient” Milliarium Aureum, which by the way should have also necessarily been the first Roman mile possibly with a Roman “I” (1 in "Arabic" numbers) inscribed upon it, expecially because Roman numbers didn't have the zero placeholder. And let's pretend the copy outside Porta San Sebastiano was the third milestone (is it possible that originally was inscribed with a “III” subsequently changed into ”I”?). And finally I will try to find the correct location of the second milestone engraved by Piranesi. What do we find?






​Even if I don't really know the exact path one should follow from the milestone on Capitoline Hill (I have chosen the path of Via Sacra - Via Sacra - Wikipedia – in a straight line running down the hill), it seems that the distance from the first and the second milestone and from the second and the third is ideally identical. This would confirm the location of the second milestone near the crossroad of the Appian Way and Via Ardeatina just outside Porta Capena, as described in the second post of this thread (Ancient Rome according to Piranesi and others).





​Roman mile = 1.580 meters (5.184 feet)? That would be extremely similar to the modern mile of 5.280 feet... (Roman mile - Wiktionary)

You decide!

P.S. The milestone was rediscovered in 1584. "The English statute mile was established by a Weights and Measures Act of Parliament in 1593 during the reign of Queen Elizabeth I" (Mile - Wikipedia).


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## Forrest (Feb 1, 2021)

Here is another Piranesi drawing with a scale. This is Tiber/Tiberina Island on the Tiber river, downtown Rome; the map appears to show it as a ship with an obelisk for the mast, as is depicted in several old maps. This might get us to a more accurate Roman Mile, if that's what he means. "Palmi Romani"? Roman hands instead of Roman feet?





*Caption:*
Nelle passate Tavole ho rappresentato il Mausoleo e Ponte Elio Adriano, co gli avanzi dell antico Ponte Trionfale a questo
contiguo; e parendomi cosa non men utile, che necessaria render compita la mia raccolta, anche coi Ponti, i quali esistono dentro
la Cuta, ho voluto dimostrare nella presente figura la situazione degli altri due Ponti Quattro Capi, e Ferrato, cosi detti da Moderni, per mezzo de quali si passa all’Isola Tibernina detti di S. Bartolomeo; osservando nello stesso tempo gli avanzi di questa Isola, qualisono stati da me suppliti del mancante di lor fabriche, distinguendoto con tinta pui leggera, ed accennando l’esistente con la pin nera. 1. Ponte Fabrico. 2 Ponte Ferrato. 3. Avanzo della Poppa della Nave, come vedremo nella seguente tavola 4. Tempio de Esculapio 5 Are piantate innanzi al Tempio sudetto 6. Guglia eretta nel mezzo della piazza. 7. Atrio dedicato ad
Esculapio nel mezzo dell’Isola con Statua di questa Dieta. 8 Ospedale per gl’Infermi 9. Statua di Giulio Cesare 10. Tempio di Giove Li:
caonio con statua di questa Deita nel dinanzi. 11. Tempio, e statua di Fauno. 12. Statua di Semone Sango. 13. Carcere, nel quale
portavansi per un mese intero i Nobili condannati a morte. 14. Case dei tre Fratelli Anizi. 15. Pezzo della sudetta guglia di granito innanzi alla Chiesa di S. Bartolomeo. 16 Are che si veggono nel cortiletto de PP. Di questa Chiesa
Piranesi Archit. dif. inc.

*Shaky translation:*
In the past Tables I have represented the Mausoleum and Bridge Elio* HADRIAN*, with the remains of the ancient Trionfale Bridge adjacent to this one; and since it seems to me no less useful than necessary to make my collection complete, even with the Bridges, which exist inside the Cuta, I wanted to demonstrate in the present figure the situation of the other two Bridges Quattro Capi, and Ferrato, so called by Moderni, for through which one passes to the Tibernina Island known as S. Bartolomeo; observing at the same time the remains of this island, which I have made up for for the lack of their buildings, distinguishing them with a lighter shade, and pointing out the existing one with a black pin.

1. Fabrico Bridge.
2 Ferrato Bridge.
3. *Remnant of the stern of the ship,* as we will see in the following table
4. Tempio de Esculapio
5 Ares [areas?] planted in front of the aforementioned Temple
6. Spire erected in the middle of the square.
7. Atrium dedicated to Aesculapius in the middle of the island with a statue of this Diety.
8 Hospital for the sick
9. Statue of Julius Caesar
10. Temple of Jupiter Li: caonius with a statue of this Deita in front.
11. Temple, and statue of Faun.
12. Statue of Semone Sango.
13. Prison, where the nobles sentenced to death were taken for a whole month.
14. Houses of the three Anizi Brothers.
15. Piece of the aforementioned granite spire in front of the Church of S. Bartolomeo.
16 Ares that can be seen in the courtyard of PP. Of this church
Piranesi Archit. dif. inc.

The image is from a KD post- SH Archive - Ancient bridge construction as presented by Piranesi in the 18th century

Also relevant- https://stolenhistory.net/threads/18th-century-cartography-and-map-making.2321
Also https://stolenhistory.net/threads/1721-two-different-maps-of-rome-why.2191/#post-11807
especially the Dreamtime post of *Date:* 2018-08-26 11:38:38 showing bridge up, bridge out. Tiber Island also changes, sometimes it's like a ship, sometimes there's a little islet upstream. The little islet and the bridge out may correlate with big floods that deposited 20+ feet of soil in the Circus Maximus, Forum, etc., like this one- 1530 The Great Flood of ROME


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## Silveryou (Feb 1, 2021)

I am trying to figure out something related to the Tiber Island that I have in mind from the start. I am going to post it when it's ready.

In the meantime a real treat for those interested in misconceptions, hidden truths and stolen history. This goes very weel with post #17 (Ancient Rome according to Piranesi and others). Here below two engravings by Piranesi (supposedly by the same author) with the same title: "Veduta degli avanzi del Tablino della Casa Aurea di Nerone, detti volgarmente il Tempio della Pace" (roughly: View of the ruins of the Tablinum of the Domus Aurea of Nero, vulgarly called the Temple of Peace).





​In the first engraving, on the right of the picture you can see the Colosseum (and it's written in the caption - point C Flavian Amphitheatre). The tablinum was "a room generally situated on one side of the atrium and opposite to the entrance; it opened in the rear onto the peristyle, with either a large window or only an anteroom or curtain" (Tablinum - Wikipedia). How is it called nowadays? The Basilica of Maxentius (Basilica of Maxentius - Wikipedia)!



​And so this is the second time we see a monument previously called in another way and now attributed to Maxentius, the first being the Circus of Caracalla renamed as Circus of Maxentius. This is a strange thing in itself.


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## wild heretic (Feb 2, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> "The Prisons (Carceri d'invenzione or Imaginary Prisons) is a series of 16 prints by the Italian artist Giovanni Battista Piranesi in the 18th century. They depict enormous subterranean vaults with stairs and mighty machines." (Imaginary Prisons - Wikipedia)
> 
> View attachment 5568View attachment 5569View attachment 5570View attachment 5571View attachment 5572View attachment 5573View attachment 5574View attachment 5575View attachment 5576View attachment 5577View attachment 5578View attachment 5579View attachment 5580View attachment 5581View attachment 5582View attachment 5583​Where these prisons were supposed to be, besides the chaotic mind of our dear artist?  We are obviously talking about an underground setting here, but we can maybe deduce the location from some details. First of all, let's say that the word _prisons_ translates as _carceri_ in Italian and _carceres _in Latin. Today we are shown places of "ancient" Rome which somehow represent these prisons, like the modest Mamertine Prison (Mamertine Prison - Wikipedia), behind San Giuseppe dei Falegnami church.
> 
> ...



I love this kind of stuff. 

Perplexing that the artist both drew ruined and not-so ruined drawings of Rome. Was he copying another drawing? Or did the artist live through the great changes and therefore was alive to draw a before-and-after picture of Rome?


Silveryou said:


> Anyway it seems to me that the 16th century for Rome is the century in which everything was turned upside down.



Indeed, I found the same date a few years ago while researching Rome for the first time on my forum on the mudflood thread.


Silveryou said:


> View attachment 6140
> ​



Notice how all the victims in the above painting have green skin. I've noted green-skinned people to be quite prevalent in Italy in tapestries, busts and paintings of the 1400s. Not before, and not after. Well, maybe now we know why they aren't depicted later on. It is because they were all slaughtered perhaps. The question arises as to where they came from all of sudden to pop up in the 1400s.


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## Silveryou (Feb 2, 2021)

wild heretic said:


> Perplexing that the artist both drew ruined and not-so ruined drawings of Rome. Was he copying another drawing? Or did the artist live through the great changes and therefore was alive to draw a before-and-after picture of Rome?


Here (Ancient Rome according to Piranesi and others) @veeall noticed the hiding of an obelisk in particular. I think it's relevant.


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## Forrest (Feb 3, 2021)

Here is a list and MSM timeline of archeologists, etc., translated from
https://storiaromana.blogspot.com/2008/09/cronologia-archeologica-1407-1561.html
*Archaeological chronology 1407 - 1561*
1407 Filippo Brunellesco and Donato Bardi study the ancient buildings of Rome and excavate them.
1424 *Ciriaco de 'Pizzicolli* of Ancona begins his antiquarian travels in Italy and in the East.
1445-1446 Editing of Flavio Biondo's work: Romae instauratae libri tres.
1447 *Dialogue De varietate fortunae* by *Poggio Bracciolini* concerning the topography
of ancient Rome.
1450 Nicolò V gives LB Alberti and B. Rossellino the task of rebuilding the basilica of St. Peter in the Vatican.
1450 Report by Giovanni Rucellai on the jubilee of 1450 with information on Roman topography.
1452 Beschreibung der Stadt Rom by Nicolò Muffel.
1460 Devastation of the Colosseum for the buildings of Pius II.
About 1460. Fra Giocondo begins his archaeological investigations in Rome.
1465 Publication of the work of LB Alberti: De re aedificatoria, Florence.
1466 and following Lorenzo the Magnificent and Pope Paul II collect antiquities.
1471 Pope Sixtus IV begins the Capitoline municipal collection of ancient sculptures.
1478. Pomponio Leto organizes the Academy of Antiquaries on the Quirinale.
1485 First and important excavation in the Quintilii villa near Rome.
About 1491. Editing of the Codex Escurialensis containing sketches of ancient monuments, made in the style of the Ghirlandaio school.
1496. Collection of antiquities of Cardinal Raffaele Riario at the New Chancellery in Rome.
About 1498. Editing of the Giocondiana Sylloge with information on Roman collections of antiquities.
1500. Establishment of the Cesarini Museum in Rome, the first garden-museum freely open to scholars.
1503. Pope Julius II entrusts Bramante with the reconstruction of St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, after having had the Constantinian basilica demolished.
1506. Pope Julius II collects ancient statues in the courtyard of the Belvedere at the Vatican.
1506. Discovery of the Laocoon in Rome.
1508. Arrangement of the collection of Cardinal Giovanni De 'Medici in Palazzo Madama in Rome.
1509. Editing of the work of Francesco Albertini: Opusculum de Mirabilibus novae et veteris urbis Romae.
1510. Formation of the Chigi collection in Rome.
1510-1540. Engraving of ancient Roman monuments by Marco Antonio Raimondi, by Agostino Veneziano, by Marco Dente.
1512 or 1513. Discovery of the Nile in Rome.
1513. Publication of the work of Andrea Fulvio: Antiquaria urbis, Rome.
1515. Raffaello Sanzio of Urbino is appointed Commissioner of Antiquities of Rome.
1517. Ruin of the cochlid column of Theodosius in Constantinople.
1523. Death of Cardinal Domenico Grimani; its rich collection of sculptures passes into the Serenissima.
1527. Publication of the work of Andrea Fulvio Sabino: Antiquitates urbis, Rome.
1530. Discovery of the Idolino in Pesaro.
About 1530. Foundation of the Farnese collection by Cardinal Alessandro Farnese.
1532-1536. Drafting of two sketchbooks of Roman monuments by Martino van Heemskerck.
1535. Drafting of two sketchbooks of Roman monuments by Amico Aspertini.
1535-1538. First discoveries in Villa Adriana with Pirro Ligorio.
1536. Triumphal entry of Charles V into Rome; discovery and isolation of ancient monuments.
1538. Bull of Paul III for the conservation of the ancient monuments of Rome.
1538. The equestrian statue of M. Aurelio is transported from the Lateran to the Piazza del Campidoglio.
1538-1539. Editing of a book of drawings of Roman monuments by Francisco de Hollanda.
1539-1549. The Roman Forum suffered serious damage due to the construction of the Basilica of St. Peter.
1541. Francis I of France had the cast of the Trajan column made.
1544. Discovery in the rotunda of S. Petronilla in Rome of the ark of Mary, daughter of Stilicone, with a huge treasure of precious objects, now missing.
1544. Publication of the work of Bartolomeo Marliano: Urbis Romae Topographia, Rome.
1546-1547. *Farnesian excavations in the Baths of Caracalla*; discovery of various plastic works, including the Farnese Bull. Beginning of the Farnese Museum in Rome.
1547-1555. Home of the Dutch Stefano Vinaud Pighius in Italy; drafting of the Codex Pighianus.
1547-1565. Farnesian excavations in the Foro Romaono.
1550. Editing of the work of Ulisse Aldrovandi: Ancient statues that can be seen throughout Rome.
1550-1553. Drafting of the Code of Drawings of Roman Monuments in Cambridge.
1550-1572. Cardinal Ippolito d'Este collects ancient sculptures on the Quirinal and Tivoli.
1551-1560. New research in the villa Adriana; general first floor of the villa by Pirro Ligorio.
1553. Discovery of the Chimera in Arezzo.
1556. Publication of the Statues of Rome by U. Aldrovandi in the work of L. Mauro: The antiquities of the city of Rome, Venice.
1557-1559 Journey of the Dutch painter Melchiorre Lorichs to the East.
1558 Publication of the work of Tommaso Fazzello di Sciacca: De rebus siculis decades duae, Palermo.
1559-1566. Transformation of the Baths of Diocletian in Rome into the Certosa and into the church of S. Maria degli Angeli.
1561. Publication of the work of the French Pietro Gilles: Topographia Constantinopoleos.
1561-1565. Drawings of Roman monuments by Giovanni Antonio Dosio.


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## Silveryou (Feb 3, 2021)

Forrest said:


> *Archaeological chronology 1407 - 1561*
> 1407 Filippo Brunellesco and Donato Bardi study the ancient buildings of Rome and excavate them.
> 1424 *Ciriaco de 'Pizzicolli* of Ancona begins his antiquarian travels in Italy and in the East.
> 1445-1446 Editing of Flavio Biondo's work: Romae instauratae libri tres.
> ...



My God!!! It will require a lifetime to look at them!


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## enthusiast (Feb 5, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> What struck me was that strange and unusual line of obelisks and bizarre structures in the middle of the engraving.


Why is there an Egyptian obelisk in Vatican St. Peter’s Square? VERSADOCO


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## Silveryou (Feb 5, 2021)

enthusiast said:


> Silveryou said:
> 
> 
> > What struck me was that strange and unusual line of obelisks and bizarre structures in the middle of the engraving.
> ...


It seems to me a regular video with common informations passed off as particularly incredible. The only interesting part, VERY Interesting I must say, is the involvement of Domenico Fontana with the supposed positioning of the obelisk. Who was Domenico Fontana?

https://stolenhistory.net/threads/79-a-d-no-more-pompeii-got-buried-in-1631.2024/
SH Archive - Pompeiigate Scandal: Chronology Issues


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## enthusiast (Feb 5, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> Who was Domenico Fontana?


There's an article on wikipedia. I was not interested in his biography in more detail.


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## Silveryou (Feb 5, 2021)

Yes I know who he is! I was suggesting you to look at those threads that I've posted following the question... They give you an incredible answer!


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## enthusiast (Feb 5, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> They give you an incredible answer!


Thank you.


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## Ivalon Olga (Feb 7, 2021)

wild heretic said:


> Green skin[/ QUOTE]
> Green skin becomes a violent death for dying people for sombody, why can SEE.
> [QUOTE = "Silveryou],[/ QUOTE]
> The mystery of Rome is buried elsewhere. Until the end of the 18th centuryRoma was Kiev
> ...


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## Silveryou (Feb 7, 2021)

Ivalon Olga said:


> [QUOTE = "wild heretic, message: 39778, member: 170"]
> Notice the green skin of all the victims in the picture above. I noticed that green-skinned people are quite common in Italy on tapestries, busts, and paintings from the 1400s. Not before and not after. Well, maybe now we know why they are not depicted later. Perhaps because they were all stabbed to death. The question is where they suddenly appeared in the 1400s.
> [/ QUOTE]
> Green skin becomes a violent death in dying people for seeing people
> ...


I think you can use this service to translate deepl.com.


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## Ivalon Olga (Feb 7, 2021)

Until that falsification many countres and cites changed their places. 
Spain was in Caucases.
 Hannibal all his life live there. 
Greece was Crimea. 
Neapol was Simferopol.
 Kitay was not China, it was in Russea, the place of Andrey Bogolubsky. 
Bible was falsificated.


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## Silveryou (Feb 7, 2021)

Ivalon Olga said:


> Until that falsification many countres and cites changed their places.
> Spain was in Caucases.
> Hannibal all his life live there.
> Greece was Crimea.
> ...


There is a sort of copy paste mechanism inscribed in our history, but I am not yet sure of how it works. I think that Italian Rome has certainly many things to tell though.


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## Ivalon Olga (Feb 8, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> Ivalon Olga said:
> 
> 
> > Until that falsification many countres and cites changed their places.
> ...



Those images and maps are the maps of Kyiv.
And here is a Roman amphitheater on the slopes of the Dnieper.
Napoleon took everything valuable, and what he could not take, he blew up.


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## Silveryou (Feb 8, 2021)

Ivalon Olga said:


> Silveryou said:
> 
> 
> > Ivalon Olga said:
> ...


Please, show us the exact position of the second milestone of the Appian Way in Kyiv according to Piranesi.


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## Ivalon Olga (Feb 8, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> Ivalon Olga said:
> 
> 
> > Silveryou said:
> ...



The Appian Way led to Greece and crossed the Pontic Swamps. 
“that during the construction of the road Appius conducted a canal through the Pontic swamps”
The ancient city Pont, also known as Ponticapei, Constantinople, Theodosia, near the ancient Bosporus Strait in the Crimea (not to be confused with the modern Bosphorus). And sea Pont - Black sea.
Real Greece is the Crimea and the shores of Lake Meotia - the Sea of Azov, in the same place was the Bosporus Kingdom and then Byzantium.
Then the ancient tract in that direction passed through Kaniv and Trakhtomyriv. Trakhtomyriv - from the ancient word tract-road, an ancient city, like Kaniv. There was old road and new road.
Along that road were ancient royal sarcophagi, which still existed antil the 19th century, mentioned by pilgrims.
Pilgrims went to Kyiv for thousands of years, from all ends, until the Bolsheviks stopped it.
There are many sayings, for example, "The tongue will bring to Kiev"
This is indeed a very ancient road.
 The distance by 2 miles is about three kilometers - depending on where, maybe from Vydubichi. 
It would be necessary to walk to see. 
There were waves of destruction of antiquities, by the French, the Bolsheviks, the Soviet Union. 
 Few survived. And yet there is something that has survived.
Most of our ancient monuments have been transported to modern Rome.
 I was there. These are familiar faces and bodies and sarcophagi
Julius Caesar went west from Rome, but from modern Rome he would have drowned.

The word Caesar of Ukrainian origin, as well as the word sar, sar-maty, sarcophagus. With the Ukrainian article, cae or tse, as tse-glyna.

The wars of Rome began with the borders of Ukraine.

Pompey fought with Mithridates in the Crimea, etc .

 There was close contact between Greece and the Mir-Rome with Colchis-Georgia

The giant Troyan Ramparts stretch from Kiev to Odessa. 

Troyan is mentioned in the Word about Igor's regiment as a glorious ancestor. Rome is mentioned there too. 
The ancient name was Mir, Rome came later.

The DNA of the Romans who built London is the DNA of the Ukrainians.
There are millions of facts about it.


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## enthusiast (Feb 8, 2021)

Ivalon Olga said:


> Real Greece is the Crimea <...>


What!?
1. Where on the territory of Crimea was Mount Olympus?
2. "Pontic campaign" not "Panticapaeum".
Sorry, *Silveryou.*


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## wild heretic (Feb 8, 2021)

Ivalon Olga said:


> Silveryou said:
> 
> 
> > Ivalon Olga said:
> ...



I think there is a bit of truth in there, but let's not go full Fomenko just yet. For example, Jerusalem is not in the Ukraine, when studying the old maps. The medieval Jerusalem is Baalbeck in Lebanon. That's pretty clear. I agree though that Moscow became the third Rome after Constantinople fell.

Also, Piranesi was drawing Rome in Italy as the OP has pretty clearly demonstrated. 

If you wish to present your evidence in documented analytical form, I suggest you start a new thread.


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## Silveryou (Feb 8, 2021)

wild heretic said:


> Also, Piranesi was drawing Rome in Italy as the OP has pretty clearly demonstrated.


Exactly. Whether you want to shift the Roman events from Italy to another place, it is a fact that an ancient city called Rome is actually in the middle of Italy.

Then I can say that Fomenko has in my opinion clearly shown how many "ancient" monuments (the Christian ones in particular) were probably built only beginning with the 16th century. Less convincing is his speculaton on the Colosseum and other ruins. In my opinion Piranesi shows that we are dealing with an ancient city and I believe many of the Roman events took actually place in Rome (not all of them though probably).

... my OPINION...


enthusiast said:


> Ivalon Olga said:
> 
> 
> > Real Greece is the Crimea <...>
> ...


Don't be sorry! You are talking to someone who believes Ancient Greece was in the Arctic and Mount Olympus was the North Pole!!!


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## Forrest (Feb 8, 2021)

Piranesi's _*Palmi Romani*_ unit of length might be this Palmus Major


palmus majorpalm length3⁄4 pes​0.728 ft​222 mm​in late times


It's the closest to the scale in his map of Tiber Island above. Using that to scale Piranesi's drawing to a Google Map shot of the present day island, the only features that are useful for reference are the two bridges that connect the island to the mainland. The bridges line up accurately in angular measure, but the scale is still suspect.





We can see that everything on this island has changed since Piranesi's time. Some of the walls of the old buildings still line up with some of the new features. The upstream end of the island (the 'stern of the ship') has been swept away, while the downstream end (the 'bow' of the ship) has been added on to. It is more streamlined now than it used to be. The river has changed its course. All of these details are consistent with a major flood, or a series of lesser floods. The two coffer dams were probably added to control the water level upstream to throttle the water flowing past the island, to stop the river from chewing up poor old Tiber Island any further.

*Technical Note for Silveryou* and anyone else. This picture was made in *GIMP, a free program* with Photoshop-like features. I used Google Maps to zero in on the area of interest, then adjusted the picture by zooming and translating in order to frame the area around the Piranesi drawing. Google has a Measure tool, its box is shown in the image. I picked the points that I thought represented the riverside bridge piers on either side of the island to add the measurement (the167.86 meters), hoping this would be useful in the scaling comparison. I compared it later on with the Piranesi scale, hoping to use it to figure out what units he was using- that didn't work out too well.

The screen shot was imported into GIMP by pasting it into the first layer of the file, and select-cropped using Image...Crop to Selection to remove irrelevant material on its sides. This gives us a modern reference for the old map, presumably taken from the zenith (90 degrees overhead), which matches the Piranesi POV. The resolution is limited by the size of the computer screen used to take the screen shot, a topic that will come up later on in a more ambitious project.

The Piranesi map was then pasted into a second Layer on top of the first. It was smaller than the Google map, so I enlarged it using Scale...Layer (Not Scale...Image). So now there is a lower-resolution image sitting on top of a higher-resolution image, partly covering it up. It's also not to any precise scale at this point. Reducing its Opacity (increasing the Transparency) lets the underlying image show though, which is needed for the rest of the process. I then used Rotate...Layer to rotate the Piranesi drawing around to roughly match up with the North-South orientation of the Google map.

Now a decision has to be made as to which features on the two images are to be equated with each other, under the assumption that both images are accurate representations. It turned out, for this particular case, that the angle the two bridges make with each other is the most reliable for orientation- Piranesi and Google agree here to within the pixel resolution of the images. I was able to orient the drawing to the Google map to within about 1/10th of a degree, by repeatedly scaling, rotating, zooming, and translating to bring the two sets of bridge representations together.

It was the scaling that turned out to be most problematic, as was expected. I took a pot-shot at locating the bridge piers in the Google map expecting that a more accurate measurement can be taken later. On the Piranesi map, the black rectangles are presumably the cross-sections of the piers, and are probably accurate, judging by the man's other works. Then I found the Roman Measurement page on Infogalactic and used that number (0.728 feet per Palmi) for the scale.

Since two lines at an angle meet at a single intersection point, that point became the implied origin for rotating about, and then for aligning the two images in translation. So the overlay is fairly accurate in POV-alignment, rotation, and in translation. It's less accurate in scaling; I think the Piranesi drawing is slightly too large.

I played around a bit with a couple filters to try to make the image easier to see, then settled for Layer...Darken for now.


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## Silveryou (Feb 8, 2021)

Forrest said:


> Piranesi's _*Palmi Romani*_ unit of length might be this Palmus Major
> 
> 
> palmus majorpalm length3⁄4 pes​0.728 ft​222 mm​in late times
> ...


I've now looked at your image above a hundred times and nothing comes to my mind (by the way, you have to teach me how you do those superimpositions!).
I think the course of the river was changed but I am tormented by the possibility that there was a road connecting the circus to the Vatican, I had some ideas in mind but I've momentarily stopped the research.


Forrest said:


> 6. Spire erected in the middle of the square.


This was your translation of the "point 6" on the map. Wanted to underline the word _spire_, which is _guglia_ in the original and it's correct, but apparently guglia derives from _aguglia, _which is _ago _in modern Italian (needle in English) and was simply a term for obelisks. The Vatican obelisk was called Caesar's needle in the Middle-Ages. That was the position of the obelisk on the island-ship.


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## Bitbybit (Feb 9, 2021)

Forrest said:


> Here is a list and MSM timeline of archeologists, etc., translated from
> https://storiaromana.blogspot.com/2008/09/cronologia-archeologica-1407-1561.html
> *Archaeological chronology 1407 - 1561*
> 1407 Filippo Brunellesco and Donato Bardi study the ancient buildings of Rome and excavate them.
> ...



I just dived into one of them:

"1485 First and important excavation in the Quintilii villa near Rome. "
The year 1485 seems to point to information about a discovery of a girl in a sarcophage.
The excavations of ruins seems to have possibly first started in 1783. The ruins was at the time of excavations called "Roma Vecchia" (Old Rome) by the locals.
It is made by small bricks and can be compared to Pompeii.  Stonework is of course different from Balbek etc.
And for example the statue _Aphrodite Braschi_ was allegedly found in 1792 (9 years into excavations.)


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## enthusiast (Feb 9, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> <...> but apparently guglia derives from _aguglia, _which is _ago _in modern Italian (needle in English) and was simply a term for obelisks.


aguglia


Bitbybit said:


> And for example the statue _Aphrodite Braschi_ was allegedly found in 1792 (9 years into excavations.)


Yes, you're probably right. They recreate the statues from the images on the coins.
"Hinsichtlich ihrer Auffassung belehren knidische Münzen, dass sie vollkommen nackt in der Linken ein Gewandstück hielt, welches auf einem Gefässe auflag, während die Rechte vor die Scham gehalten war, und nach dieser Darstellung steht unter den zahlreichen erhaltenen Aphroditenstatuen dic Aphrodite Braschi der Münchener Glyptothek der Knidierin am nächsten: vielleicht sogar näher als der Vergleich mit der Münze zu erlauben scheint, wenigstens hält sich der Verfasser aus der Münzpraxis zu der Annahme berechtigt, dass Nachbildungen von Kunstwerken aus dem Gebiete der Architektur wie der Plastik in den meisten Fällen nur in äusserlichen Charakteristiken und Attributen verlässig sind, sonst aber eine Selbständigkeit und Ungenauigkeit der Stempelschneider verrathen, welche man nach moderner Behandlung kaum begreift." — Franz von Reber. Kunstgeschichte des Alterthums, t. 1 (source)


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## Bitbybit (Feb 9, 2021)

Lets say the Villa is a 1400-1600s century building like pompei probably also is.
Pompeii was dug out around 1750.
If this villa ruin was found (and renamed) in 1783 they already had the ancient roman narrative ready.


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## Ivalon Olga (Feb 9, 2021)

enthusiast said:


> Ivalon Olga said:
> 
> 
> > Real Greece is the Crimea <...>
> ...



Pont is the name of the sea and the city on its shore.
Modern Greece was never that Ancient Greece, there is already enough material about this. 
For example, Athens was a coastal city, modern Athens is located 5 km from the coast. 
Perhaps, in the Crimea, they later became Pont.
Sparta became Partogenes.
It is hardly possible to write here a voluminous work on every point known to me.
So far, my knowledge is not so detailed as to talk about each separate point.
But the real Constantinople is also Pontus, and the Tower of Constantine is in it.


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## Silveryou (Feb 9, 2021)

Ivalon Olga said:


> enthusiast said:
> 
> 
> > Ivalon Olga said:
> ...


Please, show us the exact position of the second milestone of the Appian Way in Kyiv according to Piranesi.


Bitbybit said:


> Lets say the Villa is a 1400-1600s century building like pompei probably also is.
> Pompeii was dug out around 1750.
> If this villa ruin was found (and renamed) in 1783 they already had the ancient roman narrative ready.


That of the 18th century seems a fake rediscovery to me. In the 15th-16th-17th centuries they built the various churches in Rome and they subsequently renamed the ruins already there and maybe they modified others also changing their names and scope to create a new fake antiquity a thousand years old, while it was "only" two-three centuries old.
They labeled the stories surrounding those ruins a "fantasy" and attributed them to their ancestors, slightly modifing the real past century after century to create a new historical paradigm. For example today Italians think that Rome started from unnamed Italian tribes who lived there on stilt houses, while the ancient stories (today labeled as myth) say clearly that the Trojan Aeneas arrived there and his heirs founded the city.


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## Ivalon Olga (Feb 9, 2021)

wild heretic said:


> Ivalon Olga said:
> 
> 
> > Silveryou said:
> ...


Thanks.
I am not such a follower of Fomenko, and this is not what shaped my outlook on things.
I have great respect for the early Fomenko and am horrified by the current one, who suffered from special influence.
 I will write more in a separate thread.
Italy was Ukraine at that time. Hetman Mazepa was a Roman prince, others too. Almost until the end of the 18th century.
There was one city, now Kiyv, it was called Mir. 
It was named Mirskaya empirea (worldly empire) 
This word Mir meant the world as a community of people.
This was the name of other cities, Mir-gorod (World-city). Zhito-mir (Bread-world, the city of bread where Jesus was born). 
When falsified, or perhaps even before it, this name Mir was changed to the opposite reading - Rim, in latina Roma. When the Jewish version of history was created, it was called Jerusalem, although in fact it was never called that in life.
Kiev was the first Rome, modern Rome was the second, so Moscow claimed to be called the third Rome.

I haven't figured it out yet, how to make separate branches, and can I already do it, I am new here.


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## Silveryou (Feb 9, 2021)

Ivalon Olga said:


> I haven't figured it out yet, how to make separate branches, and can I already do it, I am new here.


Good luck!


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## Ivalon Olga (Feb 9, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> Ivalon Olga said:
> 
> 
> > enthusiast said:
> ...



Perhaps there was a long plan for a gradual transition.
Later, Moscow was preparing the transfer of Kiev to Vladimir, preparatory work was carried out there, but this plan was never implemented. Many cities and countries have been moved.

Napoleon in the Pontic company fought in Ukrainian Italy and was the king of Italy in 1796-97, then he fought in Egypt on the Volga-Ra, and then captured Moska-Moscow, together with Alexander I.

The results were formalized in the newly minted Russia with two capitals

Before that, it was Mosca or in the French manner daMask or Damascus.
Damascus was in a country that at that time was Syria
This was also postponed

From the chronicles of the Crusaders: Aleppo was Halep'ya, Edesa was Odessa (Gades), Tripoli was Tripoli, Nikopol and Nikopol, Accra was an ancient Crimean city Accra, the battle of the Crusaders near Khotyn.
There is no Khotyn in Israel and no monastery of Stefanych from the chronicles of the Crusaders, and much more.

Lebanon (Livan) was Lithuania (Litva), the crusaders were in the Baltics when they were driven out

Troy was located at the mouth of the Danube, now it is the village of Starye Troyany


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## Forrest (Feb 16, 2021)

A comparison of scales including the Palmi-




This is from Piranesi's map discussed here. It can be used to translate between different archaic unit systems.  Piedi Inglesi is English Feet.

Measuring pixels, I about get 516 px wide for the _*Palmi*_ scale and 708 px wide for the _*Piedi Inglesi* _scale. The ratio is then 516/708 = 0.729 palmi per english foot. This is in good agreement with the 0.728 palmi/foot cited above.


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## Frodod (Feb 21, 2021)

Forrest said:


> Piranesi's _*Palmi Romani*_ unit of length might be this Palmus Major
> 
> 
> palmus majorpalm length3⁄4 pes​0.728 ft​222 mm​in late times
> ...



Thanks for this great thread. Very interesting. I don't have anything to add, but i want to bring this website, Old Maps Online, to your attention. It lets you do overlays of old(er) maps over the current version. I think it allows for your own maps to be imported. I have not been playing with it for long, but i find it great fun.  It has other features as measuring distances and areas too. I am not sure how accurate it all is. But this section i chose as an example has the vatican and the starfort line up perfect. I typed Rome, clicked an old map,  and voila.









edit: to give credits to KD stolenhistory.org   I found this oldermapsomline website a week ago under the 'resources' button.


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## Forrest (Feb 21, 2021)

Frodod said:


> Thanks for this great thread. Very interesting. I don't have anything to add, but i want to bring this website, Old Maps Online, to your attention. It lets you do overlays of old(er) maps over the current version. I think it allows for your own maps to be imported. I have not been playing with it for long, but i find it great fun. It has other features as measuring distances and areas too. I am not sure how accurate it all is. But this section i chose as an example has the vatican and the starfort line up perfect. I typed Rome, clicked an old map, and voila.



Thanks for this ref, and nice job on the overlay. I can't find the online tools for doing overlays and measurements. Some notes on your images.





The two maps don't quite agree in rotation. Notice the misalignments of the roads and river Tiber at the edges of the overlay. Relative scale looks pretty good. If the Vatican area was the focus for matching the two maps, then that area would have the most accurate match, with errors in translation, rotation, and scale accumulating as we move away from it.
This particular old map has the buildings drawn in a 3D cabinet projection, which adds another inaccuracy. The measurements have to be taken at the bases of these buildings.
The mini-starfort is Hadrian's Mausoleum (Hadrian = *Adriano* = *Adriana*) , rebranded as Castle of the Angels/Saint Angel (*Angeli*). It didn't have the starfort wall around it until sometime around the rebrand, say the 1600's. Maybe the Pontiff Maximus decided it would make a swell fort, like how the Frangipani's turned the Colosseum into their family fort, Max Max style.
This is one for the short list of focus areas, almost exactly as you selected it. Some other examples are Tiber Island & environs, Palatine/Circus Maximus. It's much easier than trying to map the entire city on a small computer screen.


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## air_dance (Mar 6, 2021)

Ancient Rome acording to BIble is Sofia - Bulgaria.
It was built by Aurelian (Sol Invictus). = Solomon.
Before Samaria (Sirmium with Serbia) was built from Emperor Severus to Crispus, they ruled in Tirzah (Trier - Germany = Prussia).
Crisp then moved the capital to Sirmium.
It seems that in the end the people of Tirzah (Trier - Germany + Russia = Prussia) organized under the name of Assyria and invaded the Balkans and Bulgarian Asia.

Babylon I've been looking for him for a long time.
It seems to be the city of Berlin. At first I thought it was St. Petersburg, but now I think of Berlin.













P.S. Thanks to Horos for his discoveries which helped me understand the world and history.


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## Silveryou (Mar 7, 2021)

air_dance said:


> Ancient Rome acording to BIble is Sofia - Bulgaria.


This is _Ancient Rome according to Piranesi _though. I think you are in the wrong thread...


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## air_dance (Mar 7, 2021)

I do not think so. Through the above post I will prove what Piranesi painted.
Piranesi painted the present Rome, but he also painted the former Rome = Sofia.
*"Veduta del ponte Salario" - Rome vs. the bridge of Serdika = Sofia*


 

 


*"Tempo di Minerva Medica" (1) - Rome (2) vs. The Red Church - Perushtitsa = Bulgaria (3)*


 

 


Piranesi paints something that is not in the city. Why is his picture placed in urban conditions? 
Not to say a big word, but I think that in today's Rome everything is copied from the original - the Balkans. Not that this is bad! But it is obvious what is new and what is old.


 vs 


Assuming Minerva is the Christ?
Piranesi must have painted other buildings he had seen in the Balkans. Such as this:



I've seen this building, but I can't remember exactly where. Between Albania, Croatia and Hungary. In this area.
And go to the main street of Rome.



and go to the main street of Serdica:



Here is an ancient map of Sofia presented for Jerusalem. Do you see what is happening at the end of the street? So ... Jerusalem = Serdica = Rome. Who is the real one? 



And on top of everything on Madaba, it is written about the city of Jerusalem that it is said: "Hagia Polis Serdica". (Сердика) in BG.
This is what Piranesi paints. He did not paint only in Italy and for Italy.
_"decumanus" - East West - main street
"cargo" - North South - crossing the main street
Piranesi paints a street that is east-west. And a surprise. This is not Rome = Serdica, but Plovdiv (Philippopolis).
Piranesi painted two pyramids for reference. These are not just pyramids, but hills.


 

_





 


Plovdiv (19 c) and Ancient stadium of Plovdiv


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## Forrest (Mar 7, 2021)

air_dance said:


> I do not think so. Through the above post I will prove what Piranesi painted.
> Piranesi painted the present Rome, but he also painted the former Rome = Sofia.
> *"Veduta del ponte Salario" - Rome vs. the bridge of Serdika = Sofia*
> View attachment 7339 View attachment 7341 View attachment 7340
> ...



Piranesi's drawing of the Temple of Minerva Medica is consistent with that of other artists. The building is in Rome. Its architecture is distinctly different from that of the Red Church, and it appears to be much larger as well. Minerva Medica is a true dome, the Red Church appears to have a major arch spanning its open area, which could have supported either rafters or secondary arches. A dome can be idealized as an arch rotated around its central, vertical axis.


It does not have a single, massive, central arch like the Red Church. Its dome is compared to that of the larger Pantheon. Both work by stacking mass around the outer rim, to counter the downward and outward forces on the dome. It's similar to the idea of pinnacles, stacks of stones above the pillars of the flying buttresses of cathedrals.


The dome is made of brick, much lighter, more daring, than the Pantheon's dome, and so it collapsed, in at least two stages. It may also be older than the Pantheon, as it doesn't have the advanced concrete tech.










Minerva Medica is interesting for other reasons. Look how rapidly it has decayed- not just the dome collapse but the other parts of it as well- in the span of a couple-three centuries. (It's been shored up in the 20th C.) Projecting that decay rate backwards, it could have been brand new not so long before Piranesi. There is also a controversy over its name and purpose. It is called out as Minerva Medica in many of the old maps of Rome, some of which show it intact, but there is a recent (?) push to re-brand it as a nymphaeum of some sort, which supposedly had nothing to do with Minerva.



From a Ligorio map dated M. D . LXX (1570 AD) T = Temple. It appears to be intact, while the aquaducts are in ruins.​
*"Veduta del ponte Salario" - Rome vs. the bridge of Serdika = Sofia*
The two bridges can be distinguished by the style of their arches, either 'Roman' (aka round, barrel)  or 'Gothic' (pointed at the top). Salario has round arches, Serdika has pointed arches. The details and style of the stonework of the two bridges is quite different.


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## air_dance (Mar 8, 2021)

*Temple of Minerva Medica*
Let's ask ourselves, why would Piranesi paint the temple of Minerva Medici? Historians are almost 100% convinced that the building was never a temple. Piranesi is an architect and artist. If it was not a temple, then why was it painted?
Do they date it to the 4th century? Based on what?
4th century?..........................................................4-5th century!





Give a logical explanation that the left is "Roman construction" (4c) and the right (4-5c) is "From Mars?"
For me, Piranesi lived in the 19th century. Graduated artist. He may be a Mason. 100%. With the pyramids trying to suggest something. They are not real.
There is no point in looking for the pyramids. They are Masonic. I know what they mean (I suggested a little above, but you hardly take me seriously  ), but I don't know if you would understand me. The obelisks he painted are also "Masonic".
*Example (task):*
Do you see anything similar in the two photos (down)? If so, you will understand the pyramids. If you think that the two photos have nothing in common, you will not understand what the pyramids and obelisks are.


 


And now. Because it's not easy.
Leonardo da Vinci lived 1452-1519. Piranesi lived 1720-1778. Suppose they live at the same time.
All know how everything was exported from Byzantium to Venice and Genoa in the 14th-15th centuries. Piranesi also graduated there in Venice or had close ties. He has a diploma to paint and build what he sees. What he sees will be Byzantine. That is, he will have seen the "original" and created the "copy". It's the same with Leonardo. I will even say about Leonardo that his mother is Bulgarian. Sold into slavery in Italy and abandoned by her husband.
Then Leonardo painted a "copy" of the "original".


 


the Last Supper (1495-1497) vs Ivanovo rock churches (13-14 century)
It's the same with Piranesi. They copied the buildings in the Balkans and moved them to Italy.
Then it turns out that Minerva Medici did not exist! And then it turns out that scientists are right that Minerva Medici has never been a temple as we are convinced today.
Then Piranesi was either a senior mason or he painted things he saw in the Balkans. I know I know. I am Bulgarian and I talk nonsense. 
And a question?
To be a Mason you need to know at least 5 languages including LATIN. How many languages did Piranesi know? These are not artists! He grabbed paints and brushes and just scratched something. Nothing of the kind. A man with 5-6 languages + Latin, an architect, an educator, a scientist, a rich man did not create a ROME in his paintings. I guarantee you that.


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## Silveryou (Mar 8, 2021)

air_dance said:


> I do not think so. Through the above post I will prove what Piranesi painted.
> Piranesi painted the present Rome, but he also painted the former Rome = Sofia.
> *"Veduta del ponte Salario" - Rome vs. the bridge of Serdika = Sofia*
> View attachment 7339 View attachment 7341 View attachment 7340
> ...


Please, show us the exact position of the second milestone of the Appian Way in Serdica or Plovdiv or any other locality in the Balcans according to Piranesi.


air_dance said:


> Leonardo da Vinci lived 1452-1519. Piranesi lived 1720-1778. Suppose they live at the same time.
> All know how everything was exported from Byzantium to Venice and Genoa in the 14th-15th centuries. Piranesi also graduated there in Venice or had close ties. He has a diploma to paint and build what he sees. What he sees will be Byzantine. That is, he will have seen the "original" and created the "copy". It's the same with Leonardo. I will even say about Leonardo that his mother is Bulgarian. Sold into slavery in Italy and abandoned by her husband.
> Then Leonardo painted a "copy" of the "original".
> 
> ...


This would require a new thread


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## air_dance (Mar 8, 2021)

I will not comment further. I apologize. I will only add:
There are two types of paintings.


 


First type of painting: In the paintings with pyramids and obelisks you should look for Freemasonry. That is, symbols, hidden messages and others.
Second type of painting: a real panorama of real cities
I just can't understand why his work is so mixed with a purpose: research.
*And the most awkward question?* In what language were the streets of Italy written in 1740? Isn't Italian based on Dante Allegieri? Why 500 years later will the streets of Rome be in Latin?
That is. If he wanted to paint Rome, he would paint Rome, not pyramids and obelisks. Then he painted another city and coded it in symbols.


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## Silveryou (Mar 8, 2021)

air_dance said:


> I will not comment further. I apologize. I will only add:
> There are two types of paintings.
> View attachment 7427 View attachment 7428
> First type of painting: In the paintings with pyramids and obelisks you should look for Freemasonry. That is, symbols, hidden messages and others.
> ...


Yes the pyramid symbolism is everywhere in Piranesi's Rome but at the same time is present in the Italian Rome of our time with the Cestius' pyramid and a number of obelisks. But I am not certain that those features should be necessarily be related to Freemasonry, even though it's right to see the possible connection and "stay alert".
About Dante Alighieri I've read many things about the possible re-invention of a Dante of antiquity in the 19th century. Voltaire mentions Dante as a "second line" writer with no particular talent. One wonders how could he not know Dante's Divine Comedy and consider that work as the product of a second class writer! So I don't really know!
But I am going to tell you something that will make you laugh. I was scolded here (The legionary in battle) because I said that Italian language was called _Volgare _and that seems to me a rendering of the word _Bulgarian!!!_


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## Forrest (Mar 9, 2021)

Here is a decent compendium of high-resolution Piranesi drawings, with 3,023 results for "Giovanni Battista Piranesi"-
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/colle...ortBy=Relevance&sortOrder=asc&searchField=All
They give some MSM background as well.

For maps of Rome-
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search#!?q=rome map&perPage=20&searchField=All&sortBy=Relevance&offset=20&pageSize=0

These are downloadable without too much trouble. The resolution is such that the captions are readable, a problem with the image search images.

This site also has content, but switches out to a pitch page-
https://www.wikiart.org/en/giovanni-battista-piranesi/all-works/text-list
Also, for select pictures with MSM opinions-
https://digital.kenyon.edu/piranesi/


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## Forrest (Mar 12, 2021)

Forrest said:


> Piranesi's _*Palmi Romani*_ unit of length might be this Palmus Major
> 
> 
> palmus majorpalm length3⁄4 pes​0.728 ft​222 mm​in late times
> ...



Here is an overlay of the Piranesi map of Tiber Island onto a (his?) 1748 AD map-




Other maps also show this little islet where the stern of the ship used to be. The islet is no longer with us. What I think is going on, is that Piranesi copied his version of the old Tiber Island from an older map, possibly a fragment of the Forma Urbis Romae. Then came a flood that cut the channel and carved out the little islet sometime before 1748- taking all its building with it and most of the structures on the main part of the island. Piranesi may not have seen these. Then came another flood after 1748 that swept the little islet away and the buildings shown, which are now mostly replaced with newer buildings.

Waters of the Tiber, like the flood of 1937 can reach up to the tops of the bridges-




Ponte Cestio, as viewed from the south, during the flood of November 1937






Ponte Fabricio, as viewed from the south, right arch, during the flood of November 1937​


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## Forrest (Mar 15, 2021)

http://www.romeartlover.it/Tevere.htmlLevels of the Tiber River sometime ago. "S. Maria sopra Minerva is one of the most interesting churches of Rome: its interior contains masterpieces by Michelangelo, Bernini, Filippino Lippi and other important painters and sculptors. It is also the church with the highest number (5) of papal monuments after S. Pietro. Visitors usually pay little attention to its simple façade and do not notice a group of plaques on its right side. "


All of these signs look like they were made by the same artist at the same time. They also look relatively new.

"S. Maria sopra Minerva is not the only place where one can see plaques indicating the level reached by the river waters: Porto di Ripetta, S. Rocco, Arco dei Banchi and Ospedale di S. Spirito are some of the other locations where floods are recorded. A less known tablet written partly in Latin and partly in Italian can be seen in Rione Regola, a quarter frequently flooded by the Tiber. In this _rione_, after the erection of the walls on the river, the level of some streets (which once led to its shores) was raised and this explains why one can see a fine Renaissance portal half buried in the ground."

Maybe. He is saying that a post-Renaissance Tiber mudflood buried this portal. To do this, the river would also have to carry mud along with the water, then deposit it in a layer thick enough and widespread to prevent its removal.


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## Schepsis (Mar 25, 2021)

I have to say, Piranesi is a very good artist. I was very impressed by his drawing of the Arch of Constantine. Great attention to detail.
It seems to be partly buried in the ground and vegetation is growing on it, but the most surprising thing is the height of the people around it. The four large Dacian statues at the very top of the arch are supposed to be 3 meters tall, so those people near the arch are pretty tall themselves.


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## fabiorem (Mar 26, 2021)

A nautical mile is equal to one minute of latitude, in a given place. The french used latitude 45 as a base for the nautical mile.
So the roman mile would probably be equivalent to one minute of latitude in a given place in Rome, probably the vatican hill.




veeall said:


> Just two pompous interiors:
> 
> View attachment 5647
> View attachment 5648




Did anyone paid attention to the clothing? 
These drawings are actually from the 18th century. If it was fantasy, they would be wearing togas. 
That is, it was exactly like that in the 18th century. And since the 19th century might have lasted 300 years, they could have rebuilt it the way it is today.


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## Silveryou (Mar 26, 2021)

fabiorem said:


> A nautical mile is equal to one minute of latitude, in a given place. The french used latitude 45 as a base for the nautical mile.
> So the roman mile would probably be equivalent to one minute of latitude in a given place in Rome, probably the vatican hill.


Here I gave my "final" thought and the reasoning behind it. Let me know what you think.
Ancient Rome according to Piranesi and others


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## fabiorem (Mar 27, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> fabiorem said:
> 
> 
> > A nautical mile is equal to one minute of latitude, in a given place. The french used latitude 45 as a base for the nautical mile.
> ...




I think the "copy" is the original one.
And none are ancient, they came from the renaissance. Piranesi was depicting how things were at his own lifetime. None of his pictures are fictional, not even the ones of the prison and the ones with the pyramids. Just compare them with actual fictional works (for example, John Howe depictions of Middle Earth), and you will notice the perspective in Piranesi's drawings describe the physical world. 
Ancient Egypt did not exist, its a fiction from the 19th century. Like I said in another thread, hieroglyphs were just figures of decoration, like celtic knots are. And they were used by the romans.
Roma was actually a area from Transylvania to the Peloponese, and which included Constantinople. The current Rome in Italy was founded later by migrants from that area (Aeneas from Troy was actually a migrant from Constantinople). The splendor you see came during the "renaissance", with great improvements in architecture. And it was really that huge because giants were a reality. The roman empire was always a empire, while the cities in Italy were republics, hence the SPQR fiction (as part of the history of the roman empire) invented by Scaligeri and others. Rome was actually a city-state, a republic among many others, and not the "papal states" like official history reports. The state of Vatican was founded in the 20th century, its medieval history might as well be a forgery.


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## Silveryou (Mar 28, 2021)

Vagabond said:


> Italians here have more knowledge please do share!


Italians don't have a clue about anything (generally speaking).


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## Silveryou (Mar 28, 2021)

Vagabond said:


> Silveryou said:
> 
> 
> > Vagabond said:
> ...


Yes, you are almost correct. If you talk with Italians, they have generally no interest in everything historical and you pointed out pretty well their most beloved "interests". Those who have an interest always seem to know everything better than anyone else. As an Italian myself I am used to this kind of behaviour and this is why I literally go insane when someone acts as if he/she knows everything.
I personally think that the Romans were not Italians who built stilt houses on the Tiber and some centuries after conquered the world. For me they were originally a small group of technologically advanced Trojans who came from somewhere in the Northern regions of Eurasia, the ancient Roman/Greek myths being practically the same myths told by the Norsemen. I've always been fascinated by the fact that "Roman" is almost the anagram of "Norseman". I also think that Roman and Latin are two different things, being Latins another population conquered by the Romans, or something like that.
It is obviously useless to speak about this with Italians, since much of their ("our" I must say) identity is based upon this, in my opinion, counterfeit history.


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## Forrest (Mar 28, 2021)

Schepsis said:


> I have to say, Piranesi is a very good artist. I was very impressed by his drawing of the Arch of Constantine. Great attention to detail.
> It seems to be partly buried in the ground and vegetation is growing on it, but the most surprising thing is the height of the people around it. The four large Dacian statues at the very top of the arch are supposed to be 3 meters tall, so those people near the arch are pretty tall themselves.
> View attachment 7779View attachment 7782View attachment 7783



The figures in the Piranesi etching look about right to me. He is using perspective, where figures closer in appear larger than those far away. Compare with the 3rd photo, which is automatically a perspective view as seen by a camera.

But Piranesi was much more than just an architect as we know them. He was quite capable of drawing existing things _exactly_ inaccurate. Precision misdirection for purpose of propaganda. He was also capable of drawing things which did not exist, which is fundamentally what all architects do. The OP drawing of the Appian Way is one example of his fantasy work. Here is another-



The close up in the upper right is from this etching showing the construction of the Tomb/Mausoleum/Sepulcher of Cecilia Mettela-


This was a propaganda piece designed to show the former glory and technical prowess of Rome. In it, the building is depicted as being two or three times larger than life, by making the figures tiny. It appears to be a far more grandiose project that it actually was. He certainly knew better, since he also drew another picture of it-



"now called Capo di ox out of the gate of S. Sebastiano on the ancient Via Appia A. Constructure as added to it in early times B. Ruins of other fortifications of the same times "

Notice it has a prominent inscription, just as the Pyramid of Cestius does, so it's hard to mistake it for anything else. This building also still exists, so we know exactly how big it is, which of one Piranesi's two drawings are accurate, and which one is a fantasy.


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## luddite (Apr 3, 2021)

Forrest said:


> He was quite capable of drawing existing things _exactly_ inaccurate. Precision misdirection for purpose of propaganda. He was also capable of drawing things which did not exist, which is fundamentally what all architects do. The OP drawing of the Appian Way is one example of his fantasy work. Here is another-



This is a insane way of lifting tons of stone. It also show's clearly that that it's pure imagination and never happened by the fact that you see the wooden panels of a box. See below.





The most mis-direction in a drawing I have seen in a long time. The more likely method of building was making a empty box, pouring in the geopolymer and letting it set. Rinse and repeat.  We also have the Egyptian / Freemason 22 and half degree amulet.





If used as the picture depicts then the stone would have been broken into a thousand pieces when it breaks free after being ripped from the hole as soon as too much weight was applied. Seriously a stupid drawing.


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## Jd755 (Apr 3, 2021)

luddite said:


> If used as the picture depicts then the stone would have been broken into a thousand pieces when it breaks free after being ripped from the hole as soon as too much weight was applied. Seriously a stupid drawing.


You dismiss too quickly.
That is a bona fide stone lifting device which works perfectly in its designed task of allowing the lifting and placing of stone blocks from above.



> A ‘*three-legged Lewis*‘ – a lifting device used by stonemason to move large stones into place. Inserted into a  prepared hole in the top of a stone it works by applying a sideways force when lifted. The Romans are known to have used such devices. [Levo in Latin means levitate or lift. Interestingly, the son of a Freemason is called a Lewis]






Source​
Though I have never seen one of this design in use I have seen stone blocks with the shaped hole to take a lewis carved in them. The use of leverage to move heavy things is plain common sense and way easier than we 'modern humans' think it to be. In fact they and their carved slots (each useless without the other) is superb evidence of carving not casting. 
In the concrete blocks which of course are all cast there is a female screw socket installed at the time of casting to allow a future use of a screw thread lifting eye.


A lewis would not work in a cast concrete block and neither would it work in a cast stone block. Geopolymer is simply modern gobbledygook to hide the true term casting.


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## luddite (Apr 3, 2021)

kd-755 said:


> Though I have never seen one of this design in use I have seen stone blocks with the shaped hole to take a lewis carved in them.



Very interesting. Maybe I doubt too much.

I found this for you. It seems like huge drills are required at a minimum.



and this one, again with a drill.



Finally, this fellow has some good ideas.


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## Jd755 (Apr 4, 2021)

luddite said:


> I found this for you. It seems like huge drills are required at a minimum.


Today we use huge drills because today we are so wrapped up in the time is money twaddle. Imagine if Piranesi was so wrapped.
The wedged Lewis he drew requires a wedge shaped slot sized to take that particular lewis. This cannot be shaped by cylindrical drill bit. Sure it would take more time to put in a wedged notch with a hand tool set but time is a modern invention that permits the commerce control system to dumb us down to the level of ignorance we find ourselves in today.

Piranesi was not drawing from some old book or copying someone else he was drawing what was real to him when alive as his attention to detail shows. He knew precisely how these worked and were made and what they could and couldn't do with them . Copy that across everything else in that drawing and its obvious we of today simply do not have the skills to work in that way.


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## luddite (Apr 4, 2021)

Maybe they did that one building but having to drop the block up top, chisel it down, clean up, lift it up again (how when all the holds are gone) and place it is a seriously huge leap of faith. The crane they have looks like it would fall over after 3 blocks were done.


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## Jd755 (Apr 4, 2021)

The stone is prepared on the ground. Shaped faced and notched for the lewis.
The lewis is fitted and the crane picks the block up whilst the mortar bed is prepared.
The crane then lowers the block down into place and it is moved by human hands whilst the crane holds the weight of the block into position. Then its a case of rinse wash repeat. 
As the building rises so does the crane. It is dismantled and reassembled all the way up until it is no longer needed and then its dismantled one last time and removed or being wood it can also be worked on and incorporated into the roof leaving just ropes, pulley blocks and hook to cart down through the structure. 
Any pointing or finishing of the outer face of the stone is done from a portable bosuns chair arrangement hung over the edge.
These people knew how to do stuff we can no longer do either because we lack the skill and the know how and I have to say the stamina and health that they had or we are over regulated to the point of insanity and we rely totally on machines and electric power of one form or another to 'do things'. In essence our electric digital tech dumbs us down to the level of slavery quite honestly.
Piranesii was drawing stuff from a time where people did things because they could, they enjoyed it, they created we on the other hand destroy in  the name of commerce and ownership. When that building went up I would argue there was no monetary system in play. Take the monetary  away from those alive today and then we really would see the walking dead manifest in their droves.


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## luddite (Apr 4, 2021)

kd-755 said:


> In essence our electric digital tech dumbs us down to the level of slavery quite honestly.


I could not agree more with that statement. It is plain as day.

I think that the method of construction that you detail is massively complicated. A simple geopolymer construction, which can be seen in plain sight in Piranesi's drawings, is more probably and utilitarian. I fail to see how it can be overlooked.


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## Jd755 (Apr 4, 2021)

You are stuck in the modern mindset. That's why. There is something to be said for casting stone. So lets look at what the cast stone is. Crushed or otherwise small bits of stone held together in a liquid of some sort which solidifies so the mould once removed leaves behind a solid mass.
Exactly like concrete is made I would postulate  just using different materials. Concrete is strong enough to be load bearing up to a limit. Beyond that limit it fails. To make concrete have a greater load bearing capacity it is fitted with a metal armature. To make it have even more load bearing ability it is fitted with a stressed armature.

All  well and good. Here in the yard of this house there sits a pair of dragon castings. They are made of crushed cheshire grit Cotswold stone and resin. They have no armature in them. They suffer no weather damage though they do chip if hit with something heavy enough. They and the process used to make them, basically mixing the crushed stone and resin and pouring it into a fibreglass mould is not a load bearing process.
The same process is used to create fake 'bits of castle' for garden structures but the load bearing limit of this stuff means that ten feet tall is as high as an independent wall can go. Any higher and they have to have a core structure of brick or cement block tied in to take the load.

Point being current cast stone products are not designed to be load bearing. You simply cannot make a tower the scale shown in the Piranesii drawing out of a cast stone product.
Piranesii was drawing real life as he knew it. To my mind there is no question of it. His attention to detail scale and proportion is a clear sign he was drawing things he had first hand knowledge of not just the items themselves but the purposes to which they were put and the processes they were used in. Just because they jar with out dumbed down modern view of what can be done by humans and their non electric machines is not grounds to dismiss them.

The only thing with Piranessi and his drawings is I cannot accept he was the only artist knocking about who did such detailed drawings yet his are the only ones that seem to be available to view, at least digitally. That strikes me as very odd indeed but then again there would be no need for discussion if there were lots of artists work digitally available all showing the ways things used to be done in detail.

Edit to correct chesire grit to Cotswold stone


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## luddite (Apr 4, 2021)

kd-755 said:


> The only thing with Piranessi and his drawings is I cannot accept he was the only artist knocking about who did such detailed drawings yet his are the only ones that seem to be available to view, at least digitally. That strikes me as very odd indeed but then again there would be no need for discussion if there were lots of artists work digitally available all showing the ways things used to be done in detail.


Excellent point. Why did he get to be the pall-bearer of that age? If his drawings are true then was he the only admirer? If not then what mis-direction is he being pushed with. The masonic imagery is a telling gesture. 

Now that you mention this, I doubt everything in that picture as misdirection.


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## Jd755 (Apr 4, 2021)

With apologies to silveryou but this is the best place to slot this video in I feel.
Here is a video about one man and his bridge all built by hand with hand tools. Can you or I do this?
I have to say I cannot but obviously I cannot answer for you.
Point of posting is we truly have no comprehension whatsoever about what we as individuals are capable of and even less what a group of individuals working together are capable of. Piranesii or whoever drew those images knew precisely.

I give you grandpa amu. Do go to his channel and pick any of his videos, literally any as they are all remarkable. For myself I tested out one of his projects a lid for a wok by making one myself from some pallet wood and scraps. The astonishing, truly astonishing thing for me was finding out that I could do something he did simply from watching him do it and trusting myself. 
Again apologies go to silveryou.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSPAK3mcI3c_​


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## Forrest (Apr 5, 2021)

There are/were others besides Piranesi.









Along the Appian Way, Italian School




*W._II_van_Nieulandt_-_Romeinse_capriccio_met_het_Septizodium,_de_Tombe_van_Porsenna_en_de_Tempel_van_Vesta_-_NK2429_-_Museum_Boijmans_Van_Beuningen*​


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## Silveryou (Apr 10, 2021)

In _The Triumphs of Caesar _by the Italian Renaissance artist Andrea Mantegna (Triumphs of Caesar (Mantegna) - Wikipedia), there are interesting "pictures within the picture" depicted on the first canvas called _Picture Bearers. _Even if this doesn't make sense at all from the point of view of official history, it seems to me that these pictures represent Rome. I say that it doesn't make sense because the triumph was supposed to be happening in Rome to celebrate the conquest of Gallia and not the conquest of Rome itself. But I don't know if I'm right with the identification...









​The image above resembles the Cloaca Maxima (Cloaca Maxima - Wikipedia) with Palatine Hill (Palatine Hill - Wikipedia) on the right and Capitoline Hill (Capitoline Hill - Wikipedia) on the left.


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## Silveryou (May 15, 2021)

"A "new" Colosseum, this is how the icon of Rome will be renovated with reversible and technological roofs:

The Ministry for Cultural Heritage and Activities and Tourism has approved one of the projects presented for the call for redevelopment of the historic Roman structure. The Colosseum will therefore be equipped with a reversible and technological roof. The intervention proposed by the architect Fabio Fumagalli, which aims to maximize the usability of the surface in the center of the arena, will allow the visitor to experience spaces in a new way." May 03 3021 - La Stampa (Un 'nuovo' Colosseo, ecco come sarà ristrutturata l'icona di Roma con coperture reversibili e tecnologiche)

New cover-ups and manipulation. The centre of the "arena" will officially become an arena. How long we have to wait for the first combats and "reenactments"?


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## Silveryou (Jan 29, 2022)

During the fascist era it was decided to demolish a particular district in Rome becuase «_Millennial monuments must tower in the necessary solitude_», as Mussolini said. It was done to prompt the supposed 'Roman spirit' of the recently 'unified' Italian nation. The district was called Alessandrino since the client was Pope Pius V born in Alessandria (city in Liguria, italy). Here the description (Via Alessandrina - Wikipedia):

"The first modern urban planning in the area between the Forum of Nerva and the Trajan's Column took place around 1570 thanks to Cardinal Michele Bonelli. He arranged to reclaim the area and make it buildable and traced the street, called _Alessandrina_ from his nickname. The street cut through the ancient _Argiletum_ reaching the Temple of Peace (beyond today's Via Cavour).

The small, narrow streets of the district (Via Cremona, marking its border towards the Capitolium; Via Bonella, Via del Priorato, Via dei Carbonari, Piazza delle Chiavi d'Oro) formed the mesh of the building fabric that had grown continuously between the slopes of the Capitolium, the wall of Suburra and the Roman Forum. It consisted of modest houses, but also of prestigious buildings, such as the small palace of Sixtus IV (maybe the Ghislieri Palace), the Conservatory of Santa Eufemia, born as a convent of the _Sperse di Sant'Eufemia_ next to a church dedicated to St. Urban and the palace of Flaminio Ponzio. The ground floors housed small businesses and artisan shops and in 1855 four taverns overlooked Via Alessandrina: one of them, called _alle Colonnacce_, stood among the remains of the Temple of Minerva."

As you can see by the photographs there was no mud or dirt of a supposed height of 13-15 meters covering the ground (SH Archive - Excavation of Rome: archaeologists are silent). The district was built at the same exact level of all the other buildings, while the ruins of the 'ancient' Rome were the ones covered, as everybody knows.





​There is in any case an interesting aspect to add. This Alessandrino district construction began in 1570, while "The *Roman Ghetto* was established as a result of Papal bull _Cum nimis absurdum_, promulgated by Pope Paul IV on *14 July 1555*." (Roman Ghetto - Wikipedia). "*The first record of Jews in Rome is in 161 BC*, when Jason b. Eleazar and Eupolemus b. Johanan are said to have gone there as envoys from Judah Maccabee."

Jews came to Rome in 161 BC!!! The Ghetto was established in 1555 AD!!! History is a perfect schience.

Edit: the Jewish Ghetto is nowadays the most guarded district in all Rome. It has various guard posts for the carabinieri (Italian gendarmerie) and an internal private security system owned by 'the community'.


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