# German Space Race



## zlax (Dec 22, 2020)

In the English Wikipedia article about Helmut Gröttrup, you can read the following:


> From December 1939, Helmut Gröttrup worked in the German V-2 rocket program at the Peenemünde Army Research Center with Walter Dornberger and Wernher von Braun. In December 1940, he was made department head under Ernst Steinhoff for developing remote guidance and control systems.
> Since October 1943 Gröttrup had been under SD surveillance. A report stated that he, his wife Irmgard, Wernher von Braun, and his colleague Klaus Riedel were said to have expressed regret at an engineer's house one evening that they were not working on a spaceship and that they felt the war was not going well; this was considered a "defeatist" attitude. A young female dentist who was an SS spy reported their comments. Combined with Himmler's false charges that they were communist sympathizers and had attempted to sabotage the V-2 program, the Gestapo detained them on March 21, 1944, and took them to a Gestapo cell in Stettin (now Szczecin, Poland), where they were held for two weeks without knowing the charges against them. Walter Dornberger and major Hans Georg Klamroth, representative of counterintelligence at Peenemünde, obtained their conditional release so that the V-2 program could continue.
> ...
> Then during the night on 22 October 1946, a selected group of more than 170 German scientists and engineers - plus equipment - from the Zentralwerke were unexpectedly and forcibly (at gunpoint) moved to the USSR by 92 trains as part of Operation Osoaviakhim with more than two thousand German specialists. From 1946–1950, Gröttrup was in charge of the more than 170 German specialists brought to Branch 1 of NII-88 on Gorodomlya Island in Lake Seliger. The German team was indirectly overseen by Sergei Korolev, the "chief designer" of the Soviet rocketry program.
> From 9 September 1945 to 22 October 1946, Gröttrup worked under the supervision of Sergei Korolev and Boris Chertok who reported to the Soviet military government of Dmitry Ustinov, the later Minister of Defense.


That is, this man was a key man, like Baron von Braun, in developing rockets. He was released from prison when without him the development of rockets stopped, after he was accused of sympathy for the Communists during the war with the USSR.

The Russian article provides slightly different information:


> In 1945, Gröttrup was moved by the US troops to Witzenhausen (a city in the US occupation zone) to be sent to the United States. But then he unexpectedly came into contact with Russian specialists who had come to Germany to organize work on German rocket technology.
> This is how Boris Chertok describes this episode in his book "Rockets and People":
> - A week later we received a report through a new "female" agent that the wife of a German specialist, Frau Grettrup, wants to meet us. The meeting was held near the border itself. Irmgard Gröttrup - a tall blonde woman in a light tracksuit - appeared with her son about eight years old. "In case of trouble, I will explain that we walked and got lost." She made it clear at once that it wasn't her husband who was deciding, it was her. She supposedly hated fascism. She was even arrested. So was Helmut. But they want to know what the Russians promise them. Helmut Grettrup, according to her, was Von Braun's deputy for radio control of rockets and electrical systems in general. He's ready to go to Soviet side if you guarantee complete freedom. I said I had to get the general's consent from Berlin and only then will we give an answer. But we'd like to meet with Mr. Gröttrup beforehand. Frau said we must hurry, in a week or two they could be sent to the United States. In three days, of course, without Berlin's consent, we have moved the whole family: the father, mother and two children of the Gröttrups.
> In 1946, he became an employee of branch No. 1 of the Research Institute-88 on the island of Gorodomlja.
> ...


That is, according to the Soviet version, Gröttrup did not "at gunpoint" decided to help the Soviet Union to implement the rocket program, and offered his services through his wife. And at the same time, with a group of 170 other German rocket engineers, he quietly went to the Soviets, from the U.S. occupied territory. It turns out that the U.S. occupation authorities voluntarily handed over most of the rocket specialists of the USSR. At the same time, according to some data, the number of German specialists sent to the U.S. was much smaller:


> So the U.S. government hatched a plan to bring 88 Nazi scientists captured during the fall of the Nazi Germany back to America and get them back on the job.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip


> “I suspect we will have to pass Russian customs when we finally reach the moon”



- Wernher von Braun, Nazi and US space architect







> The Russian Orthodox priest is blessing astronaut Jessica Meir from USA by holy water before the journey to the ISS



Untersturmführer SS and “the Father of US Space Flight”, baron Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun in his book "Project Mars" (1953cc) wrote that the leader of Mars was called - "Elon".
Interestingly, this quote was not found in all of the English-language editions of the book. Therefore, meticulous admirers of Elon Mask found the German original to verify this statement.


I also offer to see a BBC documentary about baron von Braun's career, which mentions, among other things, his first missile success - 5000 lives in the first use of V-2 rockets in London, as well as an interview with a former prisoner who worked in a concentration camp to build these rockets:


Günter Wendt: The Unbroken Chain: Apogee Books Space Series 20











Comment by A.I. Popov:


> A rocket scientist and then not an ordinary builder of the launch pad for the Energia-Buran, he spent many years at Baikonur/ Tyura-Tam, and he told the author that a rocket explosion on the launch pad, if it happens, always happens unexpectedly. So talk of urgent evacuation of astronauts already sitting in the spacecraft because the rocket is about to explode is a bluff. No one can foresee this explosion.
> Even if the rocket explodes during the launch, our cosmonauts in this case are saved not by the tale of urgent evacuation but by a special mini-missile (SAS) installed on the very top. It pulls the ship away from the body of the large rocket, which is already in the explosion phase, and carries the ship with the people to a safe distance.
> What, then, was the room that Wendt told us about created for? The author believes that Wendt told about the room, where he would take the "astronauts" after opening the hatch. He followed them calmly, without panic, not rushing and not expecting any explosion, but in full accordance with the schedule ...
> And the express gondola, the "rubber room with rubber shock absorbers" and other technical "contrivances" are a bluff of NASA's top, covering up the true purpose of the room. It is intended for the rank-and-file perpetrators of the scam - those who have been used "in the dark". So that first the developers, and then the builders, would not guess the purpose for which they were creating the shelter described by Wendt. And such a trifle as an almost empty first aid kit with nothing for first aid is a small but eloquent puncture of the bluff organisers. The "astronauts" bored in the lock-up room would have been better served with whisky and soda than with hydrogen peroxide and other medical paraphernalia!


https://www.manonmoon.ru/articles/st107.htm
"Rubber room":


Günter F. Wendt:


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## JWW427 (Dec 22, 2020)

Thanks, but the video is in Greek, so its all Greek to me.
It's well known that the Russians got their fair share of the SS rocket, non linear physics, sundry data, and scientist prize, probably it was decided beforehand at the Yalta Conference, but no one is 100% sure what went down or why. I believe America received the lion's share of technology. Russia mostly obtained territory.

Please be super careful about posting Wikipedia text as we all know it is highly manipulated history.
Im extremely familiar with all this NASA and SS Project Paperclip scientist history, so I don't understand what your post is really about. It's an unexplained info dump.
Can you clarify it for us?


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## zlax (Dec 22, 2020)

JWW427 said:


> Thanks, but the video is in Greek, so its all Greek to me.
> Please be super careful about posting Wikipedia text as we all know it is highly manipulated history.


I did not find this video in English. But in this version you could hear English speech of some orators.
Here the version with Ukrainian subtitles and Russian dubbing-in:

I'll highlight the key points:
Werner von Braun came to the US as a German scientist, not a Nazi. It wasn't until a decade after his success that he was accidentally discovered by an English Jew, a former concentration camp prisoner, who told the following about him
When Baron von Braun came to the concentration camp - the first thing he did was to increase the number of gallows from one to several - to increase productivity.
The important thing here is that of all German rocket scientists, only von Braun was a former Nazi as a result (by chance, as one of the prisoners recognized him). All the other German scientists who went to the USSR and the USA - were never Nazis, according to extant documents. There were no documents to prove that Baron was a Nazi either. It was the testimony of witness that exposed the former Nazi.
For example, Günter Wendt, according to the documents, was never a Nazi:



In this short video, taken out of context, Yuri Gagarin's daughter claims that the famous footage of the first space flight was staged:

Unfortunately, there is little information in Russian about the Soviet space deception (but a lot about the NASA production).
For example, the aforementioned Popov exposes the moon mission in detail. He even exposes the Soyuz-Appolo project (because it was with NASA), but does not touch on Gagarin:
http://manonmoon.ru/articles/st98.htm
But i can recommend this website: ARRACIS.COM - WELCOME!
This is the website of an independent Ukrainian researcher who has also paid attention to the Soviet space programme.


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## JWW427 (Dec 22, 2020)

I can assure you without doubt that most Paperclip scientists were Nazis, even if they were unwilling ones dragooned into the SS by force, which was common.

Kurt Debus and Walter Dornberger were definitely Nazis and said so in front of many NASA personnel. They were elitist "Aryans" who wanted NASA to be in Huntsville and Houston because minorities knew their place, plus there were many Nazi-admirers around such as a few of the Texas oil billionaires.

See: author Joseph P. Farrell, "The Reich of the Black Sun," and "Nazi International."


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## zlax (Dec 22, 2020)

Walt Disney and German Baron:





...

And:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Kondratyuk


> Soviet engineer and mathematician. He was a pioneer of astronautics and spaceflight, a theoretician and a visionary who, in the early 20th century, developed the first known lunar orbit rendezvous (LOR), a key concept for landing and return spaceflight from Earth to the Moon.[1][2] The LOR was later used for the plotting of the first actual human spaceflight to the Moon. Many other aspects of spaceflight and space exploration are covered in his works.



Here his original profile:


And this is what it has become at NASA:


https://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/profile.html
...



JWW427 said:


> Please be super careful about posting Wikipedia text as we all know it is highly manipulated history.


I quoted official English and Russian versions to demonstrate the contradictions.
I think it was a conscious decision by the Nazi scientists to split into two teams. I don't think it was possible to send captured scientists at gunpoint from the US zone of occupation to the Soviet zone of occupation.


JWW427 said:


> Can you clarify it for us?


I have tried to gather clear examples that the Soviet and US programmes (both) were equally coordinated by the German Nazis. Also as "nongovernment" Mars project.
It seems unfair to me to expose only the deception of NASA and the lunar programme. Exposing the Soviet manned cosmonautics, in my opinion, is also worth paying attention to. Unfortunately such materials are scarce, many still believe in the declared space successes of Soviet manned cosmonautics.


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## JWW427 (Dec 22, 2020)

Good points.
Thanks.

Walt Disney was definitely on the Deep State payroll. He had his hand on the pulse of America, and could manipulate youngsters like no one else. At one time I admired him and von Braun to no end. They were heroes to us baby boomers.


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## JohnNada (Dec 22, 2020)

JWW427 said:


> I can assure you without doubt that most Paperclip scientists were Nazis, even if they were unwilling ones dragooned into the SS by force, which was common.
> 
> Kurt Debus and Walter Dornberger were definitely Nazis and said so in front of many NASA personnel. They were elitist "Aryans" who wanted NASA to be in Huntsville and Houston because minorities knew their place, plus there were many Nazi-admirers around such as a few of the Texas oil billionaires.
> 
> See: author Joseph P. Farrell, "The Reich of the Black Sun," and "Nazi International."



Debus even carries physical evidence of his Nazi past via the dueling scar on his chin.


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## JWW427 (Dec 23, 2020)

Debus was an electrical plasma physicist on the Nazi Bell project.
Later, he probably installed a small plasma accelerator unit on the Apollo Command Module.


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