# St George's Hall, Liverpool.



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

St George’s Hall, Liverpool.




I have long had my doubts about the official history of the great Hall. Even before I became interested in our stolen history, something about this building did not ring true.

It sits atop a hill and is referred to locally as* “St Georges Plateu”*…. Perhaps that is of some significance?

Here is the official history of the hall;

‘During the Seventeenth and Eighteenth centuries, Liverpool developed rapidly.

Civic pride grew as the city prospered and as a consequence, a venue was needed to host impressive music festivals. In tandem, there was a pressing need for crown courts and civic courts of various sizes. The council decided to combine both projects and so the concept of St George’s Hall was born.

The Hall was the vision of Harvey Lonsdale Elmes, and, although young, produced a magical concept to add spice to the design with the addition of the incredible 500 seat Concert room.’

source

If you look around Liverpool in this period, I am pretty sure you won’t find the majority of the city described as “prosperous’ REF

‘Opened in 1854, it is a building in Neoclassical style which contains concert halls and law courts, and is recorded in the National Heritage List for England as a designated Grade I listed building’

I decided to do a little research on the history of this place, to see if I could spot anything out of place. It did not take me long to discover the usual historical pathway.

“The site of the hall was formerly occupied by the first Liverpool Infirmary from 1749 to 1824’

Source

This source above, is extremely week in my opinion and poorly researched.

Ok, evidence of this infirmary?

No amount of online searching would give me much evidence, except for some old maps which do point to an infirmary around the spot up to 1839;

Maps

Here is one of the area from 1836


Every other source that I found simply repeats the above statement, without any evidence.

I found this image on pinterest which claims to be 1800s, does this look like a new building to you?




and again, a new building?  1854/5...which is it? Source​
So let us assume that there was a building of some sort on or around the site.

So, why do we need this hall to begin with?

‘The idea for the hall came from Liverpool citizens who were concerned about the lack of a place for the triennial music festivals. To fund it a subscription list was set up with shares available at £25 each and by January 1837 £23,350 had been raised.
However as usual, when building work commenced it went over budget.

At the same time a venue was being sought for the Civil and Crown Courts and fortuitously the same architect was employed to design both buildings so it was decided that one building would serve all needs’

Does this make any dense to you? Music festivals in the middle of the 19th Century? Citizens asking for a concert hall, amongst hard times, poverty etc?

Who is going to build it and how are we going to fund it?

According to all sources I have found, in 1838 the foundation stone was laid to commemorate the coronation of Queen Victoria. Yet I have been unable to find any other written or visual evidence to prove this. Surely, such an historical event would leave a trace in writing of in the form of a painting.

So the foundation stone is laid before the building has even been design let alone commissioned? Building did not begin until 4 years later in 1842. Is this normal practice?

Source

By the way, here is how much credence you can place on Wikipedia, all of the references for the St Georges Hall wiki page, are taken from quotes like these here on the bbc website, which in turn cites absolutely zero sources for the information. Make of that what you will.

Let us have a look at the selection of architect and construction process.

A competition announced on 5th March 1839 via an advertisement in the The Times to design the hall, first prize was 250 guineas, second prize 150 guineas. By July more than eighty entries had been received, and was won by *Harvey Lonsdale Elmes,* a London architect aged *25 years,* the second prize went to George Alexander of London. (Those young architects eh?)

The requirement was:

"*there is to be accommodation in the main hall for 3000 persons* (I thought this was a concert hall; and there is also to be a concert room, capable of accommodating 1000 persons, applicable to other purposes such as lectures and smaller meetings....the cost of the building will be £35,000"

There was a need for assize courts in the city and a competition to design these with first prize £300 and second prize £200, there were eighty six entries and was also won by Elmes.

The original plan was to have separate buildings but in 1840 Elmes suggested that both functions could be combined in one building on a scale which would surpass most of the other public buildings in the country at the time. Construction started in *1841 (When was it 41 or 42)* and the building opened in 1854 (with the small concert room opening two years later).

*TS Note:* Many of the references for info on the hall pertain to a book written by the now deceased Lorraine Knowles, who it seem worked in a Heritage position and possibly has access to info we do not on the Hall. It is also entirely possible she was merely repeating what she had been told by others.

Her blog: ‘as Curator of the Merseyside Museum of Labour History, a subject that remained close to her heart throughout her career; as Project Officer for St George’s Hall in Liverpool where she eventually became a trustee; as Head of the Museum of Liverpool Life and then as project officer for NMGM into the Future’

Blog

I have however decided to treat any evidence provided by Knowles with a pinch of salt. (I am going to get a copy of her book to peruse at some point however)

*The Architect: Harvey Lonsdale Elmes. Waki*

Only 25 when he ‘won’ the gig to do the Hall, with only 1 referenced prior design I could find, some small ish house in Westminster. Does this seem logical? We do seem to have a lot of massive builds and project being given to relatively unknown and young people in the 1800s! Apparently, he died 5 or 6 years into the build, depending on which version of events we use, and was replaces by 3 further people to complete the build.

This is a poor narrative by anyone’s standard. His wiki page contradicts the narrative on the Halls wiki page, by the way.

*Let us build:*

So, the finance is in, the design is in (and revisions) let us build,

This building of absolute gargantuan proportions and relevance to the city, returns zero, none, nil images, books, texts or references to its construction. Considering its importance, and it straddling 2 decades of increased advancements of photography, no images.

All I could find, were some schematics of the supposed ventilation design, but absolutely zero evidence of its construction. here

Is this another building left over which they could not figure out how to operate?

There is the Steble fountain just across the road, which they could not figure out how to operate either. either. Steble


Evidence of the build: No images of the land or area immediately prior to its existence. No stone paintings, photos, zip.

No written evidence of its construction, except of the builders name, no numbers of stone, workforce, actual cost, problems, nothing.

In 1839 it is not there, then in 1854 it is there. So was it actually built? Perhaps the photos and evidence are hidden like this place? _Cathederals_

Interestingly, when you enter from the side, you are met with this 'Victorian Tunnels;' where have we seen these before?..... Williamson's Tunnels Will T



*Once inside?

We only had access to the main hall, with the Organ: Some images I took on a recent visit. *

*

*​
The Hall is the home to a massive and I mean massive organ. This probably needs a thread of its own, but here’s a little info;

‘THE organ was built by Henry Willis and completed in 1855 with 100 speaking stops across four manual divisions. In 1931 it was reconstructed by Henry Willis III when the number of stops was increased to 120 and electro-pneumatic action introduced for the combination systems and some of the key action. Its power source was still the Rockingham electric blowing plant which had replaced the two steam engines (one of 1855 and a second which had been added in about 1877 to run the increased pressure required since 1867 for some reed stops. In the interim this higher pressure had been hand blown!) The 1924 electric blowers remained in use until 2000 when the present new low and high pressure blowers were fitted by David Wells. With 7,737 pipes, it was the largest organ in the country until a larger one was built at the Royal Albert Hall in 1871, after which an organ even larger than the one at the Royal Albert Hall was constructed at Liverpool Anglican Cathedral, using over 10,000 pipes’

No real evidence as to how long this actually took to make and install.

How St George’s Hall Took Its Place As One Of Britain’s Finest Buildings | Good News Liverpool

*The Minton tile floor.*

Whilst there recently, my wife and I decided to pay the 5 bucks each and take a look at the Minton Tile floor. Apparently, it’s so worthy of saving that it has only been opened to the public 8 times in the last 12 years… It is built up in the media to be something awe-inspiring. I have to say it was an entirely underwhelming experience. I have no idea what I was expecting, but it simply felt like some tile floor that was covered up, to be uncovered every few years to allow them to charge 5 bucks each to see it. The floor however, looked a lot older and warn than  few hundred years, but what do I know. In addition, the marble statues around the place felt like plaster to my touch…





this statue felt like plaster of Paris.​

TS: Summary

This whole building seems to have popped up out of nowhere, and then had a back story invented. Although it does not appear on any maps I could find prior to 1854, that does not mean it hasn’t been removed from the maps. Everything about it feels off. Also within a few years of the building appearing, it was surrounded by further similar buildings, The World Museum, Central Library etc.

From this, to this in 34 years. Some leap in technology and know how.


Would love to hear forum members thoughts on this building.





> Note: This OP was recovered from the Sh.org archive.





> Note: Archived Sh.org replies to this OP are included in this thread.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-01 13:07:41Reaction Score: 1


My god that is one ugly building. Are you getting your infirmary sites mixed up?
The Workhouse in Liverpool, Lancashire


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-01 18:28:50Reaction Score: 1




jd755 said:


> My god that is one ugly building. Are you getting your infirmary sites mixed up?
> The Workhouse in Liverpool, Lancashire


According to the link in the op, the original stood on the site of the hall, but who knows! 

Original infirmary


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-01 20:18:00Reaction Score: 0




Timeshifter said:


> According to the link in the op, the original stood on the site of the hall, but who knows!
> 
> Original infirmary


You know my feeling about waki, How does the map layout in the op, thinking roads specifically, compare to the maps at that link?


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-01 20:24:35Reaction Score: 1


Yep  the roads appear where they should be.

The un named building centred here was suposedly the Infirmary...



Same place, 1817



1836...



Also note, I can find no maps of Liverpool 1836 to 1851, right when this thing is suposedly built...


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: teokennyDate: 2019-11-01 23:54:16Reaction Score: 2


One thing leaves me perplexed: it is clear that they have not built all these buildings with carts, horses and hammers. there had to be machinery of some kind. we should find something, I don't say whole machines but at least pieces. probably we will not recognize them and we would call them cannons or who knows what else. but they should be huge machines, means of transport, measurement and who knows what else. there must be a trace, they cannot have made everything disappear...


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BantaDate: 2019-11-02 00:04:47Reaction Score: 1



Is the building sick? All those dots...


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TartarisnDate: 2019-11-02 03:49:11Reaction Score: 2


Ah, yes, another architectural competition. How is it all the winners of these competitions designed in the same style?


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-02 08:58:22Reaction Score: 0


The hay market I am guessing would be an actual market where the price of hay was set and hay was sold.
The unnamed building must be the workhouse/infirmary as the road layout is correct.
The dots are 'map speak' for grass aka lawns, if memory serves, on OS street maps of the era which were not produced as often as one would think. Years apart was the norm as my delving into family history showed me. Unlike today where they are 'updated' on the fly but 'in the computer'.

The reason for suggesting that the infirmary's being mixed up is a key thing is because there is a timeline for the workhouse infirmary at the linked page I posted which would mean that any subsequent building on the site can only have gone up once the workhouse/infirmary went out of use.

The machinery of the 1800's is in on this site in various threads. Steam power, railways, oxen carts, wooden cranes then wood and iron cranes, round pole scaffolding., pulley blocks, static winding engines etc etc


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: aero618Date: 2019-11-02 11:47:27Reaction Score: 1




Timeshifter said:


> If you look around Liverpool in this period, I am pretty sure you won’t find the majority of the city described as “prosperous’


_@Timeshifter_, when they say "prosperous" only the elite freemen are being refered to, the poor could lay dying in the gutter from hunger- they are not of concideration. Liverpool became the main trade port to North America, so in the early/mid 1800's I would say the elite of Liverpool did become very prosperous: they would also have had  "associates" from the Americas who no doubt visited as part of the club~
Minton was the first ceramic tile "artist" to produce repeating symetrical patterns and are now collectors items, like most of his day, he probably only "discovered" the idea~ like Lord Sandwich after he went on a Grand Tour across EU; I'm not saying that the tiles are definantly produced by Minton.

My eyes were drawn to the *"granite columns"* inside

Scenario: It could be possible the building once stood in America and was dismantled and rebuilt in Liverpool? I worked on a project at Liverpool Street Station when it was modified in 1990 and an intricate marble war memorial was dismantled, crated, stored (including transportation off site and then back) and rebuilt: no plan was taken during the dismantling and I was tasked with measuring each component piece in storage and supplying the rebuild plans)- it is possible.


_© IWM (Q 48861) _before 


planning

after

an extra lower plinth level was added to the reconstruction to incorperate a lift entrance

There would be a massive time and cost saving if they did indeed import the building rather than build from scratch, they certainly had the general labour at their disposal, and sea transport to do so~ they would then need a reduced no of the most skilled stone masons (banker masons, or carvers) to reserect it. Lime, not cement, was in use back then so dismantling would have less risk of damage. Even in modern days, you use lime "putty" to assemble limestone structures/facades: _although I can't claim what the unknown architecture used_


----------



## KD Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: KorbenDallasDate: 2019-11-02 13:07:04Reaction Score: 3


If it was the only building to put up with no additional infrastructure in place, transporting could make sense. The reality demonstrates that these buildings were being put up left and right. Chances are, a couple streets down they probably locally produced something similar.

As far as the the available 1800’s equipment we can see on this forum goes. I believe that our educational system prefers to omit most of it. Achievements are being shown as a one off type genius inventions instead of raising a question of that society being entirely on par with those machines and equipment we find.

Therefore the true methods of production of these buildings are being hidden. Where is that official source explaining that so many steam cranes, steam shovels and robotic arm type excavating machines were used to construct this or that in 1842? Where is that official dource saying that building progress was being reported in 1850s to some headquarters 700 miles away using Caselli’s fax machine, for example? Or that missing documents were received via his so-called pan-telegraph?

Every complicated piece of machinery has a name of its alleged inventor attached to it. Like it does not consist of hundreds and sometimes thousands of parts and separate small systems like brakes, clutches, etc. Never mind that in todays world a whole bunch of engineers are needed to produce something similar. Engineers and additional resources and industries. Yet, like with our 1850s fax, it was invented by a priest For whom it took only one year to become a physics professor. We have tons of examples on this very forum, just look at who invented those complicated mining machines, or at that Russian guy who invented that 1914 gyrocar.

To me certain things sounds similar to:

_This is Grand Cherokee SUV. It was invented by the Seattle Seahawks quarterback Russell Wilson. Patent is pending._
Going back to our building. We do understand what it was built with, because we dug in and found all those things. They in no way pertain to this structure, but we understand that they could have used something like that.

Our historians do not want people to zero in on the true tech level of that society, and somebody with enough exposure to start asking questions. Therefore any average searching will always produce horses and buggies.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: aero618Date: 2019-11-02 13:58:25Reaction Score: 1


_@KorbenDallas_, _@Timeshifter_, one thing to bear in mind is that in the 1800's Britain (the Monarchy) was still somewhat at arms length with the US, indeed right up to the US coming into help end WW2 (supported Germany more than Britain) after they had traded away all GB gold (Fort Knox) for arms supplies~ during the negotiations to enter the European arena of WW2, the US wanted to be in charge of rebuilding Germany, which was agreed. So back in the 1800's the US may have discovered/invented technology and had a far greater economy, while Britain was still in the dark ages of serfdom and keeping the status-quo, by comparison- even as late as the Bush administration when Prince Charles visited the President (first time since US independance by the Royal Family?)~ during which he replied to some question about the Monarchy being given back Virginia. Saying that, the free traders back then would have their own relationships with American counterparts. I beleive the US were far ahead in the PTB "industrial revolution"

A test for the St.Georges building would be to analyse a sample of the stone, if that were possible~ or a quick visual identification of whether it's built of sandstone or limestone, to start a search in stone quarry records. Granite will either come from Cornwall or Scotland, Grey or Red

_@Timeshifter_, if I'm right, most buildings in Liverpool that have stone in the design (later 1800's on) are red sandstone as that is the local bedrock


----------



## KD Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: KorbenDallasDate: 2019-11-02 14:12:58Reaction Score: 3


I highly question the narrative pertaining to the US of A being at arms with Britain ever. At least not the type of the United States we know today.  That’s the narrative version we received on our end. 

I also have reasons not trust in such things as out of the blue inventions, i.e. industrial revolutions. Especially when from time to time complicated technological examples bleed through when they were not supposed to.

I always say that the totality of circumstances has to be considered, and that things do not exist in the vacuum of their own.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-02 14:24:25Reaction Score: 1


This site courtesy of startpage has interesting info on the building and architects. Harvey Lonsdale Elmes (1813-47)
This pdf of letters published in 1869 does suggest Elmes was the chap who was  behind the design/.https://www.hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/21-12-Kilpin.pdf


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: aero618Date: 2019-11-02 14:27:44Reaction Score: 0


_@KorbenDallas_, I agree. Could you answer something for me~ I have read that there is in the constitution of US somewhere that "The Prince of Wales" is Prince of America, ie America is an "annex" in imperial terms to the "Crown"- annex being self governing
the Prince of Wales being a heriditary title since post 1066; Wales, the Welsh, Cambris- Sons of Gomar (therefore brothers of Cimmeria/Germany), Sons of Jasepth


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-02 14:40:44Reaction Score: 0


It is a little odd that the hall doesn't get a mention in this geological pdf. https://www.bgs.ac.uk/downloads/start.cfm?id=2510


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: aero618Date: 2019-11-02 15:09:38Reaction Score: 0




jd755 said:


> It is a little odd that the hall doesn't get a mention in this geological pdf. https://www.bgs.ac.uk/downloads/start.cfm?id=2510


page 15: _The Grade I listed St George’s Hall (1841-56) (below), is one of the finest neoclassical buildings in the world, and forms the centrepiece of a collection of similar civic buildings on William Brown Street. The scale demanded a uniformity only provided by the likes of Derbyshire Darley Dale Sandstone, which set a pattern for many later buildings in the city centre._


jd755 said:


> This site courtesy of startpage has interesting info on the building and architects. Harvey Lonsdale Elmes (1813-47)
> This pdf of letters published in 1869 does suggest Elmes was the chap who was  behind the design/.https://www.hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/21-12-Kilpin.pdf


Interesting exposay of the writers of that time making comment on the neo-classic style of architecture being replicated were pagan:
pg 234- _"and Elmes, though he designed a building exceeding in magnitude and rivalling in classical beauty the temple of Minerva, never ascended the Acropolis at Athens"_,
pg 250- _"yet nothing can be more unsuitable for the conveniences and requirements of the present ago than the style of architecture which was absolutely required for a heathen temple. The exteriors, indeed, were surpassingly beautiful, but the interior was merely a dnrk receptacle for the worship of the statue of an idol_."


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-02 15:57:32Reaction Score: 0


I should have been more precise. No mentio of what stone it was built out of. It's a building stone atlas of Merseyside.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: aero618Date: 2019-11-02 16:02:00Reaction Score: 0




jd755 said:


> I should have been more precise. No mentio of what stone it was built out of. It's a building stone atlas of Merseyside.


sorry jd755, yes it only aludes to _Derbyshire Darley Dale Sandstone_
sadly many stone quarries closed late 1980's as the demand fell off a cliff, so tracing records will be hard


----------



## KD Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: KorbenDallasDate: 2019-11-02 16:16:44Reaction Score: 1


I wish I could go take a look for myself, but the visual door height difference for these caged doors at the bottom is suspicious, imo.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-02 16:34:25Reaction Score: 1




aero618 said:


> sorry jd755, yes it only aludes to _Derbyshire Darley Dale Sandstone_
> sadly many stone quarries closed late 1980's as the demand fell off a cliff, so tracing records will be hard


Not as hard as getting sight of information relating to the survey work of 2001 and the actual restoration work done between 2002-2007.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: aero618Date: 2019-11-02 16:41:02Reaction Score: 6


_@KorbenDallas_, interesting to compare your picture to the now existing posted by _@Timeshifter_ ~ most to note the removal of statues on the corners of the concourse and more so the removal of the tympanum ornarmentation which is usually represents the temple/building dedication


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-02 16:56:28Reaction Score: 0


Huzah. Startpage and I discovered the internal polished columns are made of red granite. From here; St George’s Hall, Liverpool
_The 169ft-long Great Hall.  The mosaic floor is composed of over 30,000 Minton tiles and the tunnel vaulted ceiling is supported by polished red granite pillars_
We also found these.
From here; 1851 photos of St George's Hall under construction. Some of the earliest photographs of Liverpool


----------



## KD Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: KorbenDallasDate: 2019-11-02 17:03:57Reaction Score: 5


I like how they call it construction. Awesome tech too.

Additionally, if this is indeed 1851, they had no  issues photographing people in motion. You can even see a whip stick in one of the dudes controlling a horse buggy.

This is the pediment, by the way.

And they had to build all that under the main structure.

In recent times St George’s Hall staff have invited people to explore behind the scenes on the Footman Tour – which includes a recently-discovered tunnel as well as the ‘nooks and crannies’ which aren’t usually open to the public.

The ECHO has previously reported how a ‘lost tunnel’ was discovered. It was thought to have been *bricked up in 1838, the year the Hall’s foundation stone was laid* to commemorate the coronation of Queen Victoria. The feeling was that it may lead to more tunnels in the area – even connecting St George’s Hall to the famous Everton Lock Up, also known as Prince Rupert’s Tower.

_What lies beneath Liverpool's landmarks?_


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-02 17:35:05Reaction Score: 5




KorbenDallas said:


> I wish I could go take a look for myself, but the visual door height difference for these caged doors at the bottom is suspicious, imo.
> 
> View attachment 33389


That caged door leads to those Victorian tunnels in the op, which lead into more cavernous halls and to lime street station which is just accross the road on the right of this image.

Here's a few more images I took.

I had not noticed prior to this visit, that the columns are actually built in sections





The underside of the front entrance



And below is what that side caged entrance leads to...




And a tunnel leading of it towards the Milton Floor, via a few flights of stairs.


----------



## Huaqero (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: HuaqeroDate: 2019-11-02 19:28:41Reaction Score: 5




aero618 said:


> _@KorbenDallas_, interesting to compare your picture to the now existing posted by _@Timeshifter_ ~ most to note the removal of statues on the corners of the concourse and more so the removal of the tympanum ornarmentation which is usually represents the temple/building dedication
> 
> View attachment 33390


Could a building like this be the source of 'Elgin Marbles/Statues, stolen from the Parthenon in Greece'...?
Well, another scenario could be that they were leftovers of a destroyed 'St. George Hall' style building somewhere in Britain, kept in the basements of the British Museum and resurfaced under a made up story of 'theft' from a balkan village with a big temple ruin on top (remind you that no official Ottoman paper for their transportation exists)

Very interesting find and well written research...


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-02 20:02:50Reaction Score: 1


I'm confused, what a shock! Is St George's  plateau on Brownlow hill?

From here; Demolitions, Building, Renovations etc.
_Heavy Plant being moved at St George's plateau during the construction of the Underground Loop Line for Merseyrail._


This is the same Browlow Hill whose railway cuttings have featured elsewhere on this forum?
_Covering the open Liverpool to Manchester Railway Bridge cutting on Brownlow Hill._


----------



## KD Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: KorbenDallasDate: 2019-11-03 00:40:45Reaction Score: 1




jd755 said:


> I'm confused, what a shock! Is St George's plateau on Brownlow hill?


I have no idea what the significance of this is. Care to explain?


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-03 05:50:25Reaction Score: 1




jd755 said:


> I'm confused, what a shock! Is St George's  plateau on Brownlow hill?
> 
> From here; Demolitions, Building, Renovations etc.
> _Heavy Plant being moved at St George's plateau during the construction of the Underground Loop Line for Merseyrail._
> ...


No, Brownlow Hill is about 0.6 of a mile away. Although the 1st pic is outside of St Georges hall, with some existing undergound building clearly evident.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-03 09:56:07Reaction Score: 1


A plateau is a flat topped hill, as I was taught at skule. a hill is a promontory in the landscape. Reading through these linked page and photo descriptions it feels like the plateau and the hill are interchangeable locations.

What is meant by plateau in the case of this hall is the raised bit the thing sits on and its immediate surround, as far as I can now figure out. Perhaps it really was or even is a flat topped hill once all the masonry and bricks are removed. A lidar image might show this but my computer ain't up to looking through the lidar map.

Those brick built tunnels and vaulted ceilings mustpredate the layng of the foundattion stone in 1838, an event about which there appears to be absolutely bugger all in the digital world. The 'blocked off' I find very hard to read without smiling. 
This thing is grade ! liisted. The listing surveyors will know every last detail about the place as itsmost ecent renovation begn in 2002 so the survey must have been done prior. If you can find o e of these listings surveys or revews of the renovation online do have a read. I looked for one for this building but other than a review behind a paywall nothing came up.

Again confused Merseyrail is an above ground rail network that occasionally dips underground as hen crossing under the Mersey or going through covered in cuttings like the one in the Brownlow hill photo. Is there a rail tunnel or covered in cutting running across the plateau?

Seems the infirmary went out of use in 1824, probably, not sure about the other building on the site such as the sailors hospital. The halls groundworks must have begun a few years prior to 1838. How these dates tally with the decision to build the hall and the competition I'm not sure.


----------



## Plissken (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: PlisskenDate: 2019-11-04 05:13:19Reaction Score: 10


Assize court from *1841* map.  Building has the right shape for St George's.  I see St. John's Church is still showing instead of the park.


source

Earlier:

Map 1910 Seaman's Hospital
Look how St. John's Church is aligned with St. George's (1775-1897).  That young architect knew his surveying.  Does the blurring and shading on the St George seem weird or is it just a foreground/background issue?


St Johns Church Picturebook article st john
I knew I had seen floors like that before.  In the US Capitol building as seen here. 


The Minton tiles are a thin encaustic tile so they do wear out after about 100 years. The AOC finally replaced them in 1924with marble in the high traffic areas on the the first and second floor -- 68 years after the were installed in 1856.  Pretty good wear for a ceramic encaustic tile.  The majority of floors were okay including the corridors. Other areas of these floors did not need repairs until the 70s.  They have ways to reproduce and replace these tiles, which they figured out at that time.  So they can repair these floors. For the last 50 years.  Why hide them anymore?   AOC tile story

That makes me think that the unveiling of these could be one of two things.  1) They were making some repairs to the wood floors and discovered these underneath at some point -- so now they unveil them occasionally to keep up the cover story.  2) They are shown on occasion as part of some messed up sun/starburst/glory worship.  It would be interesting to see if they really have shown these periodically and when it started.  I mean look at the water damage on the underlayment.   You think that water and the wood would have damaged the floor more than people walking on them.


Speaking of worshiping the sun,exploding in all its glory. Supernova!  Here are some 360 shots of these buildings.  It's almost liked they designed it to be viewed in 360.  You'll see what I mean when you embiggen the first thumbnail below.  jomo360
I knew this place would have an organ.  Seems to becoming a theme in these suspect buildings.  Organ... interesting word.


 

Yep. Pre-Napoleon pyramids.


I mean look at this place. 


  
I see there is another Palace of Worship across the street.  Which has it's own suspect backstory.


Empire
This whole area makes no sense. The St. George makes no sense.  Even though they removed the gods in the pediment.  They missed some gods.  I noticed a lot of sea themed gods so maybe this city was dedicated to Poseidon/Neptune like Athens was Athena's town.  Here is one of our old friends from a detail on the beautiful doors of St. George.


All this for a dance hall/tax office?


Liverpool Picturebook has thousands of old photos of Liverpool.  I barely made it through one page in an hour and he has a lot of pages.... Check these out from his collection (off topic sorry but way cool):



Nice find _@Timeshifter_.  I have been engrossed in Liverpool all day. 

Plissken


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-04 05:38:17Reaction Score: 1


Good spots. The image resolution in the background image Hall, is different (worse) to the foreground image, imo! 2 differing images spliced together.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-04 08:13:26Reaction Score: 1


Any copes of this book in a library near you?
A short history of the first Liverpool infirmary 1749-1824 (Book, 1978) [WorldCat.org]

Could be worth a butchers.


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-04 08:18:43Reaction Score: 1




jd755 said:


> Any copes of this book in a library near you?
> A short history of the first Liverpool infirmary 1749-1824 (Book, 1978) [WorldCat.org]
> 
> Could be worth a butchers.


May be able to get a colleague to grab a copy from Sheffield 

I came across these image on Twitter, an artists painting way after the events, depicting 1823...



Below is screen shot of how it appears today on Google Earth, I have highlighted the buildings in white that appeared within 40 years of St George Hall being commissioned. This is a radical change imo.



and I give I made comparing the two...

Something is very wrong with this who part of town.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2019-11-04 14:52:32Reaction Score: 2




Banta said:


> View attachment 33380
> Is the building sick? All those dots...


I believe it says Lunatic Asylum.

I don't know if you have read this, the owner of the site types up snippets from original old Liverpool newspapers she owns.

St George's Hall


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-04 16:25:00Reaction Score: 1


Here's a google map aerial shot. Seem the road layout has radically altered. from the one in that painting.


Am I on the right St George's square in 1768?


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2019-11-05 14:25:37Reaction Score: 0




jd755 said:


> Here's a google map aerial shot. Seem the road layout has radically altered. from the one in that painting.
> View attachment 33544
> 
> Post automatically merged: 11/4/19
> ...


I am going to say no.  Derby Square is where the Queen Victoria monument now sits it's nearer to the waterfront than St George's Hall which is more central. 

Derby Square, Liverpool - Camlins


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-05 18:49:47Reaction Score: 0




Beedubya said:


> I am going to say no.  Derby Square is where the Queen Victoria monument now sits it's nearer to the waterfront than St George's Hall which is more central.
> 
> Derby Square, Liverpool - Camlins


Aha found it.
Oh the map link; 1768: John Eyes' Plan of Liverpool • Historic Liverpool


forgot to add stunning webpage find by the way/ so much information there it's incredible.


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-05 19:36:30Reaction Score: 1




Beedubya said:


> I believe it says Lunatic Asylum.
> 
> I don't know if you have read this, the owner of the site types up snippets from original old Liverpool newspapers she owns.
> 
> St George's Hall


Thanks for that. However all this is, is more embellished info on what we already know.

Theres nothing about the actual construction or evidence of any construction in there


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-05 20:18:18Reaction Score: 0


there is all sorts in there.

_*THE EXTERIOR*__The position occupied by this building is one of the most commanding in Liverpool. It is built upon a platform, erected on the edge of a sharp declivity towards the port, which is to the westward. As is well known the heath which formerly constituted the site of Lime Street, of Victoria Place, and of this edifice, was the vantage ground from which the town was besieged in the civil war. Could the cavaliers and roundheads note the changes which have ensued since their departure, they would doubtless be much astonished as well as much gratified.

The point from which the best view of the exterior can be obtained is the top of Elliott St [in Lime St], from which the south portico, surmounting a lofty flight of steps, and the long facade, agreeably diversified by an intermixture of circular and square columns, the whole crowned by the lofty double attic, have a noble appearance, and present a combination of light and shade which is highly agreeable.

It is from this point that the stranger should make his first acquaintance with this great national work, for such it is, though it has been erected from the resources of a provincial corporation, from the purposes to which it is applied, and the manner in which they are provided for.

The south portico is pseudo-octostylar dipteral, that is the columns are disposed eight in the front rank and four in the second. The floor of the portico is at a considerable elevation above the ground at the south of the building, which gives it dignity. The colonnade is surmounted by a pediment, the tympanum of which is filled with allegorical sculpture, designed by Mr COCKERELL which may be thus interpreted :- In the centre is Britannia enthroned, in her left hand she offers the olive branch to the four quarters of the globe, with her right hand she protects her native industry, the arts and agriculture. On here right are Ceres and Apollo in a car. Domestic happiness is represented by a labourer, who holds a plough, and his wife with her distaff, his child stands at the man's knee. The manufacturers, especially metallurgy, are indicated by labourers at the anvil, who have been fabricating arms, an anchor etc. To the left of Britannia, Mercury, representing commerce, presents Europe, Asia and America, and lastly Africa, on her bended knee, and leading a young boy, acknowledges the liberty she owes to Britannia. Peace lends her benignant presence, and commercial industry, arduously employed on bales and goods of various kinds completes the group. The background is filled with barges, a hive, vases, and emblems of various kinds. The sculpture is executed in Caen stone, and the estimated cost was 3500 pounds. On the entablature beneath the pediment is the following inscription. "Artibus, Legibus, Consiliis, Locum, Municipes, Constituerunt. Anno Domini M,DCCCXLI ["The municipality have provided this place for counsel, art, and laws."]

The facade to Lime Street is the principal front of the edifice, and though the western side presents a more commanding position, and by some persons is considered the proper aspect for the principal front, it must be remembered that the railway station is the great approach into the town, and that it would be objectionable to turn the back of the building upon the numerous strangers who would thus gain a very undesirable first impression. The facade consists of a poly-stylar-pseudo-dipteral colonnade in the centre, that is, with the depth of two columniations, but with only a single rank of 16 columns, flanked be recesses, having an advanced screen of detached antis, or square columns in antis, the spaces between the columns are built up to about one-third of their height. The colonnade is the length of the great hall, the remainder of the front consists of the screens, each terminated by narrow projections, prepared for being slightly relieved by sculpture at some future time. Over the great hall is the double attic before spoken of, which is built to conceal the roof of the hall, but when it is relieved by the addition of statues on the centre of the lower attic, the effect of the whole edifice will be greatly improved. The lower attic is continued all round the building.

At the north end, that fronting Shaw's Brow there are eight columns in antis disposed in a semicircle, the inter-calumniations being built up the entire height, to form the north vestibule. The entrances, three in number, are on the level of the street, and are formed in a screen wall advanced beyond the main wall, the intermediate space being covered in to form loggie to the steps leading up to the vestibule.

The west front, that to St Johns churchyard, consists of a screen of 12 detached antis in the centre, the spaces between which are built up to form the walls of the library and sheriffs and vice-chancellors courts. The flanks are nearly astylar [or columnless], except pilasters at the angles of projections, and quite plain, with preparation for sculpture.

The exterior taken as a whole is, Grecian Anglicised, that is, the Grecian type is to some extent adapted to the exigencies of this climate, and the requirements of the present age. In the eastern and southern fronts the treatment is more severely classical than in the northern and western, windows are almost entirely excluded, the rooms on that side chiefly used as ante-rooms, being lighted from above, the only exceptions are two, four light windows in the east portico, but these are so treated that they entirely harmonise with the prevailing sentiment. I am aware that the isolated antis, or square columns are exceptional with rigid classicalists, but there use in this instant seems justified by their position in the line of the wall. And by the contrast they represent to the fluted circular columns of the porticos. In the other parts windows are freely introduced wherever they are requisite, so that there is an agreeable variety in the composition of the whole, no two views of the building being similar. Mr HUGGINS has made some excellent remarks upon the increased effect this edifice will gain by the liberal introduction of sculpture. The spaces on the screen wall between the antis are appropriate positions for single figures, while the wall space gives scope for bassi-relievi. For many years to come Liverpool may apply portions of her surplus income to commemorate her most worthy sons, or scenes from her own or Englands history_

_*THE CONTRACTORS FOR THE WORK*__It would be unjust towards those by whom this important building has been erected, if they should be entirely unnoticed. I believe the following is a correct list of the several contractors :-

The carcase, Mr John TOMKINSON

After the carcase was completed the brickwork and joiner's work was carried out by Messers FURNISS and KILPIN, the mason's work by Messers NUTTALL and HARGREAVES

Plumbing, Mr W. EDWARDSON

Plastering Mr Thomas JONES

Painting Messers TROUTBRECK and WANNOP

Interior ironwork, Messers WEBBER and Co

Exterior ironwork, COALBROOKDALE Company

The exterior carving, Mr KELSEY Snr, deceased.

All the polished granite has been supplied by Messers MACDONALD and LESLIE of Aberdeen

All the internal ornaments have been modelled by Mr C. S. KELSEY. Mr W. H. WORDLEY, resident architect, and Mr HUGHES, for many years clerk of the works._


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-05 20:53:15Reaction Score: 1




jd755 said:


> there is all sorts in there.
> 
> *THE EXTERIOR*_The position occupied by this building is one of the most commanding in Liverpool. It is built upon a platform, erected on the edge of a sharp declivity towards the port, which is to the westward. As is well known the heath which formerly constituted the site of Lime Street, of Victoria Place, and of this edifice, was the vantage ground from which the town was besieged in the civil war. Could the cavaliers and roundheads note the changes which have ensued since their departure, they would doubtless be much astonished as well as much gratified.
> 
> ...


Yes, but that is all info we already have.

Iam seeking actual evidence of construction taking place. All of those descriptions could be given by walking into an already existing or completed building.

Bear in mind we are right in the golden age of photography here. No photos, etchings, descriptions of daily, weekly, monthly progress, problems, accidents, deaths....

We have masses of info on how it will be made, and how it looks completed, but nothing to fill the gap.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-06 08:24:09Reaction Score: 1


Well you have your starter for ten in the contractor list.
I'm not sure you will find what you seek though, or what form would be acceptable as evidence but that said I'll do the same and have a ratch  around odd questions and the search engines.

The doors in the plinth,on the south side, are doors through which  criminals were taken to the holding cells for the Assize which are in the sub-basement. It is a combined use building. They were transported in a horse drawn prison van hence their size.
Permit me a slight wander here if you will but I have an ancestor who was sentenced to transportation in this building who must have been taken inside by horse drawn prison van, convicted of arson ( he is said to have burnt his cobblers or a cobblers down in West Derby) and taken away to wait for his ship. The Hougenot was the last prison ship to sail to Australia and he was on it with a bunch of Fenians and other criminals. He only served four or five years of his 10 year sentence and on becoming free he built a fair few houses in Perth, even named a street after himself and came back to Liverpool a fairly well off individual.

The vaulting in the photographs above are the ventilation which is gone into in detail in that transcribed article. "Any of the four winds at the whim of Mr Reid" its designer, again according to the article..Brilliant. system backed as ever with steam engines for the days when the winds didn't blow and he great and the good were enjoying justice or edification,

As you can see the buildings on the 1768 map are commensurate with the documentary evidence so it wasn't there in 1768 at least. Will have a run through the other maps on that site and see if there are any changes.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2019-11-06 09:30:00Reaction Score: 0




jd755 said:


> Well you have your starter for ten in the contractor list.
> I'm not sure you will find what you seek though, or what form would be acceptable as evidence but that said I'll do the same and have a ratch  around odd questions and the search engines.
> 
> The doors in the plinth,on the south side, are doors through which  criminals were taken to the holding cells for the Assize which are in the sub-basement. It is a combined use building.
> ...


I do love to learn more about transportation.  What year was your ancestor convicted?  I know many were convicted in Lancaster but that might have been in earlier days. 

I have spent a lot of time looking online and cannot find any photos or sketches of the construction.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-06 12:31:16Reaction Score: 3




Beedubya said:


> What year was your ancestor convicted?


Here's the link. Hougoumont Convict Ship 1867
or two Western Australian Convicts - Hougoumont 1868
Got the spelling of the ships name wrong, sorry. And wrong about the assizes. He was convicted at Chester!

By 1847 the hall was up..

On the  map posted in the op the asylum/infirmary/hospital had been demolished, with a barracks shown on site and their functions were removed to Brownlow hill as is shown on the 1847 map.

This convict was tried in April 1854 at the Liverpool Assize which confirms that the Lancaster Assize southern division had been transferred to Liverpool prior as mentioned in the transcript of the newspaper article.
Convict Records: Richard Bibby

This one is at Lancaster Special Assize which took place in Liverpool prior to the building if the St George's hall, in an existing building according to the transcript.
The date of departure is 6th January 1847 Convict Records: James Clarkson


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-06 13:43:08Reaction Score: 0




jd755 said:


> Here's the link. Hougoumont Convict Ship 1867
> or two Western Australian Convicts - Hougoumont 1868
> Got the spelling of the ships name wrong, sorry. And wrong about the assizes. He was convicted at Chester!
> 
> ...


Nice work JD, general consensus is that it was completed in 1854, so this precedes the mainstream story by 7 years. Unless the building was actually up, but not kitted out and completed until 1854. Exact start and complete dates are extremely vague. 

Still cannot locate anything resembling construction however.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2019-11-06 13:57:48Reaction Score: 1


A little more on the building and the funding, but still no construction photos

St George's Hall (1841-54), Lime Street, Liverpool


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-06 17:52:56Reaction Score: 2


More stuff courtesy of startpage and duckduckgo with the search string Building of the St George's hall.
From here; St George’s Hall, Liverpool
_The Law Courts and holding cells were opened in 1851, but the rest of the building was a few years away from completion.  A crown court for criminal cases was at the south end of the building and a civil court for civil and family cases was at the north end. 

The key feature of the room is the spectacular sunken floor with its dazzling patterns of 30,000 Victorian Minton tiles. Produced at the Minton Hollins tile factory in Stoke-on-Trent, they are made by pressing different coloured  clay  into deep moulds to create the desired pattern for each tile. The floor was meant to be protected and not always be on view. In 1883  a removable sprung wooden dance floor was placed over the tiles. Today this tradition continues, with the floor only on show at certain times of year.

The barrel vaulted ceiling of the Great Hall is still thought to be the largest of its kind in Europe. Supported by huge red granite columns, it would have been prohibitively heavy, had it not been made with hollow bricks – an innovative idea at the time. _

From here; St Georges Hall Liverpool - e-architect

_On the east side of the hall, between it and the railway station, is St George’s Plateau and on the west side are St John’s Gardens. _


From here; St George's Hall | Purcell
The company tasked with drawing up the restoration plans.

_Extensive conservation of the stonework was required including repair and cleaning. Work involved close liaison with English Heritage and the local conservation team. _

From here; The Sculptured Pediment of St George's Hall, Liverpool | Works of Art | RA Collection | Royal Academy of Arts

_Cockerell's design for the monumental sculpture in the south pediment of St George's Hall, Liverpool originated in his 'Sketch of an idea for the Frontispiece of a Public Building in England' exhibited at the Royal Academy in 1843_

From here; The South Front of St George’s Hall, Liverpool | Architectural History | Cambridge Core

Cannot get to the article (paywalled) but the list of references is enough.

And from here the missing front page from the transcript site; St George's Hall

_About this time the Town Council gave notice of an Improvement Bill, in which they sought for powers to apply the site of the "Old Infirmary" in Lime St, for the purpose of erecting public buildings, of which it was understood the new public hall would be one.

The coronation of Queen Victoria, being appointed for 28th June, 1838, it was considered desirable that the laying of the foundation stone of the proposed St George's Hall should form part of the local celebrations for that auspicious event, consequently, although no design of the proposed building had been prepared, arrangement were made with the town council for having the ceremony performed in the Old Infirmary Yard, in Lime St, the site of the building which is now about to be opened, but the council reserved to themselves the right to place the hall on any part of the ground, that might thereafter be most suitable for it, in conjunction with the buildings, which they might erect thereon.

Thirty years since the Seaman's Hospital, the infirmary, and the Lunatic Asylum where here placed, the latter being in close proximity to St John's churchyard, and near the southern corner of the ground plot, the Infirmary and Seaman's hospital standing to the north and east of the Asylum.

I believe the Infirmary was taken down immediately after the completion of the new buildings in Brownlow St, and soon afterwards the inmates of the Asylum were removed to their new quarters in Ashton St. After the destruction of the Infirmary its site was used as standing grounds for travelling booths of various kinds, including menageries, a frequent source of interest to truant schoolboys and other loiterers by the way.

The old Lunatic Asylum was occupied by a Cholera hospital during the first visitation of that disease in 1832 and subsequently as barracks, during which time the injurious effects from its proximity to the churchyard were spoken of by an officer, who stated that at times the effluvia was exceedingly offensive, and that he and his men suffered from dysentery. A gentleman who resided near the churchyard said that he was convinced that his own health and the health of his children suffered from it and that he had removed to avoid further injury.

These remarks were made prior to 1843, since which time the evil must have been greatly aggravated, as there had been daily interments during the intervening years, and I would suggest to the northern bar whether their influence would not have been exerted more beneficially for themselves as well as for the general public, if they had endeavoured to have their interments prohibited, instead of raising a factious opposition to the temporary re-occupation of the old Sessions House.

A procession of trades formed part of the celebration of coronation day. It assembled in Dale St and after, perambulating several of the principal streets of the town terminating its walk at the site of the foundation stone and the north east corner of the ground. In the absence of the chairman and deputy-chairman of the St George's Hall committee, Mr Charles LAWRENCE, presented to the mayor, William RATHBONE Esq, a handsome silver trowel, which that gentleman handed to Mr John DRINKWATER, right worshipful grandmaster of the masons, and requested him to perform the ceremony, which took place with the customary observances. 

It will be in the recollection of the meeting that this company was formed at a public meeting of the subscribers held after 1013 shares had been taken, amounting at 25 pounds per share, to 25,325 pounds. The company elected in the manner prescribed at that meeting in February 1837, an application to the council of the borough for a grant of part of the site of the Old Infirmary, on which to erect St George's Hall, an in June 1838, the council having first obtained an Act of Parliament for the purpose, made an appropriation of that site, on proper trusts being declared, defining the purpose to which the building should be applied. The mercantile embarrassment of 1837 unfortunately put a stop to all further progress in the undertaking, but after the improvement which took place in the summer of 1838, the committee made a fresh appeal to the public, which was attended with success and the number of shares subscribed for reached 1043.


The council having determined on the erection of law courts on another portion of the Old Infirmary ground, and not having fixed the exact site for them, your committee asked the determination of the council on that point and having at length ascertained that the site originally appropriated to St George's Hall would not be interfered with, your committee have within a few days past, had an interview with Mr ELMES, and have fully arranged the general plan of the hall. There is to be accommodation in the main hall for 3,000 persons, and there is also to be a concert room capable of accommodating 1,000 persons, applicable to other purposes such as lectures and meetings.

As the cost of the building will be 35,000 pounds, including 5,000 pounds for an organ and furniture, the number of shares required to make up that sum will be 1400, of these the call was paid upon 800 only, and from the latter number 130 shares must be deducted, owing to death, removal from Liverpool and misfortune in business of the subscribers, and it is gratifying to find this class is so small._

Based on the available evidence and as astonishing as it seems to us alive today this building appears to have been erected within the timeframe stated, to me always to me and once again I m open mouthed at what the people of 'yore' were capable of. I doubt, but will continue searching, that construction evidence in the form of drawings or early photographs will appear, but you never know!


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-06 17:59:28Reaction Score: 1




jd755 said:


> More stuff courtesy of startpage and duckduckgo with the search string Building of the St George's hall.
> From here; St George’s Hall, Liverpool
> _The Law Courts and holding cells were opened in 1851, but the rest of the building was a few years away from completion.  A crown court for criminal cases was at the south end of the building and a civil court for civil and family cases was at the north end.
> 
> ...


At present, I can only hypothosise that either

A. This building was already there, and has had a well developed back/ forward story put in place, with mountains and mountains of evidence, which conveniently evades any evidence of construction, right in the golden age of photography, or

B. This was built by the good folk of the mid 1800s, but whatever skills/ equipment/ devices they utilised we are not allowed to see, hence the disapearance of construction evidence.

Just my thoughts.

Iam not sure which hypothosis intreagues me the most 

Edit. 1 further theory I have (I ascribe to the simulated reality theory)  the reset involved a coming together of realities, and we ended up with buildings and tech no one could use or explain. Hence the ridiculous historical narratives.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-06 18:04:13Reaction Score: 1


January 1851 date of first departure of a convict tried at Liverpool Lancaster Assizes Convict Records: James Abraham Ball

Where was it on Ayres 1768 map?

Seems the court came into use in October 1850  or possibly earlier still. Will check through tomorrow. Convict Records: Mary Ann Jones


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2019-11-06 19:13:29Reaction Score: 1




Timeshifter said:


> At present, I can only hypothosise that either
> 
> A. This building was already there, and has had a well developed back/ forward story put in place, with mountains and mountains of evidence, which conveniently evades any evidence of construction, right in the golden age of photography, or
> 
> ...


I know very little about Tartaria but am in a few FB groups where they show magnificent buildings unlike the concrete and glass boxes of today.  One theory was that the building "know how" records are hidden from modern man for some reason, another was records were destroyed in some great library fire in Alexandria.  When you look at buildings going up nowadays with huge cranes and all manner of technical wizardry it does make you scratch your head in wonderment as to how these huge buildings were erected by man alone with basic equipment


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-07 11:43:49Reaction Score: 1


Some more info with sources.
From here; Link

_Picton  in  his  Memorials  of  Liverpool mentions  that William and Enoch established a brewery on an extensive scale. Their Cheapside brewery was probably built by  William;  the  Harveys building  business  seems to have  been  one  of  the  biggest  in  Liverpool,  and William’s lime kilns gave Lime Street its name (formerly Lim -kiln Lane) according to Picton_

From here; BBC - Liverpool Local History - Steve Binn's Lime Street History

_Lime Street was set out in 1790, named after William Harvey’s lime kilns. In 1804 the doctors at the local infirmary complained about the smell, so they were moved. _

From here; South Liverpool: Toxteth including the Dingle, St. Michaels and Otterspool

[][Irish immigrant Robert Cain (1826-1907) arrived in Liverpool in 1844. In 1850 he bought a small pub on Limekiln Lane and began brewing his own beer. He bought the original brewery on the Stanhope Street site in 1858. This had been built on the bank of a small stream that had disappeared by the time Cain bought it. [/i]

From here; Liverpool Windmills

Fall well Limekiln Lane 1771

From here; The 1864 Southern Bazaar in Liverpool · Liverpool’s Abercromby Square and the Confederacy During the U.S. Civil War · Lowcountry Digital History Initiative

_ In 1854, St. George's Hall opened in Liverpool as a venue for festivals, meetings and concerts. The 1864 Southern Bazaar was held at this site to raise funds for Confederate prisoners of war._

From here; BBC - Liverpool Culture - St George's Hall - History of the Hall


This pdf gives a superb overview of how dynamic and how industrious Liverpool was during the time o this buildings erection. Link

_Nasmyth was born 19 August 1808 in Edinburgh, the youngest son of the artist Alexander Nasmyth (1758-1840). A brother was Patrick Nasmyth (1787-1831) the well-known artist. Alexander was interested in mechanical subjects and this fact may have decided James to become an engineer. In 1829 he became an assistant in London to Henry Maudslay (1771-1831), the inventor of the screw-cutting lathe and the slide rest mechanism on which it was based.'u He visited Liverpool for the opening of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway in 1830. 

According to his Autobiography{ '2] Nasmyth was granted a holiday after working with Maudslay for a  year. Reports of the locomotive trials held at Rainhill in October 1829 made him determined to visit Liverpool, see Stephenson's "Rocket" for himself, and be present at the opening of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway. He said he left London on Saturday 9  September 1830 (the 9th was actually Thursday) and arrived in Liverpool on Sunday evening. The next day, Monday, 13 September, he went to the terminus of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway where he inspected the "Rocket" and saw it  driven by George Stephenson, whose son Robert acted as fireman. He was particularly impressed by the locomotive attaining a  speed of thirty miles per hour.

The first object of his visit accomplished, Nasmyth presented a letter of introduction from Maudslay to the latter's old friend, William Fawcett, head of Fawcett and Preston of the Phoenix Iron Foundry, York Street, Liverpool. At that time, Fawcett and Preston were making sugar mills, and the engines to drive them, for the West Indies. This foundry had a  dis- tinguished career; being established in 1758 as a  branch of the great Coalbrookdale Iron Works which was operated by the Darby family from the beginning of the eighteenth century.'3 ' The Liverpool branch was managed by George Perry (1719- 1771), a  Somerset man who had trained as an engineer under Abraham Darby at Coalbrookdale. The Liverpool establish- ment was known as the Coalbrookdale Iron Foundry until about 1816 when the name was changed to Phoenix Iron Foundry. George Perry had interests outside engineering: he was responsible for the excellent map of Liverpool published in 1769 and the collection of material from which Enfield compiled his History of Liverpool.

Fawcett turned to marine engineering and as early as 1816 fitted his first engine to a  Mersey river steamer; later he engined the wooden paddler Conde de Palmella, the first ocean-going steamer to leave this country and which went from Liverpool to Lisbon in four days.

Doubtless Nasmyth met other Liverpool people, but he does not record them; after visiting the docks and making a  trip to Birkenhead, he returned to London on foot, by way of Manchester, taking a  fortnight over the journey.

Early in 1834 he visited Liverpool again and presented a letter of introduction "to Mr. Roscoe, head of the Mersey Steel and Iron Company"'9 '. Edward Roscoe (1785-1834) was the second son of William Roscoe, the distinguished Liverpool citizen who associated with Clarkson, Rathbone and Wilberforce in the movement for the abolition of slavery. He had been in business as an iron merchant from about 1810, and in partnership in the same business with his uncle William Wain (see pedigree) from about 1820. The firm became Mather, Roscoe and Finch in 1829 and Mather, Roscoe, Thomlinson and Company in 1834. The manufacture of nails, which were required for building the wooden ships of the day and which were exported in enormous quantities to America for the construction of log cabins, was an important part of their business. They had works in Sefton Road, Toxteth Park, and offices in the East Side, Salthouse Dock. After Roscoe's death, the Mersey Iron Works continued its operations under the name of Mersey Steel and Iron Company.

Nasmyth was introduced to John Cragg (1767-1854), the proprietor of the Mersey Iron Foundry in Tithebarn Street, Liverpool, whom he described as "a most intelligent and enterprising ironfounder. He was an extensive manufacturer of the large sugar-boiling pans used in the West Indies"

The earliest known example in England of the use of iron as a  structural material was in St. Anne's Church, Liverpool, built 1770-72, where cast iron columns support the galleries,'161 but the first iron-framed building was a  mill built at Derby in 1792-93.

The combination of these structural and decorative trends was appropriately accomplished in Liverpool where, in the period 1813 to 1816, Thomas Rickman and John Cragg built three churches almost entirely of iron. Rickman (1776-1841), prior to becoming an architect, was an accountant, who had long studied Gothic churches and summed up his findings in a paper entitled, "Distinctive Principles of Grecian and Gothic Architecture"

Following this, he prepared designs for St. George's Church, Everton, and building was commenced in 1813. The whole of the interior was made by Cragg using iron, and the building was consecrated 30 October 1814. St. Michael's Toxteth Park (1813-1815) and St. Philip's, Hardman Street (1816) completed the trio, and launched Rickman on his successful career as an architect._

The rest of the pdf article features much more but n Liverpool connections.We truly have no idea of what was going on then as the official history has generated a world of soundbites and snippets because the system is constantly telling us work is hard and if we are not busy we are not working hard enough.
Naysmyth walked from Liverpool to London as you can see above is a feat few today would contemplate let alone attemp so took a fortnight to travel and yet look at what he achieved over his entire lifetime.

All of the above is more evidence to me, always to me, this structure did not come through time or was up prior to a 'reset' (strikes me the reset notion is a modern take on 'god's work') as the area it stands in was rural according to the documentary/pictorial evidence.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2019-11-07 12:10:12Reaction Score: 0


Convicts from Lancaster prison/Castle were sent to Millbank before being transported to Australia.  I was told by the archivist/historian at Lancaster Castle that men walked there and women went in carts and any that died along the way, well it was one less to worry about.


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-07 14:08:23Reaction Score: 2


Just got a copy of 'A short history of Liverpool infirmary 1749-1824


Town map included, nothing we havent already seen.


Off to have read, will report back later.

Edit. Read book, it sucked.

Did however discover that the population of Liverpool skyrocketed between 1725 and 1800 the population of Liverpool went from 11000 to 90000, ... where did all of those people come from?

In the mid 1700s Liverpool was not much more than a big village with horrific living conditions, poverty and sewerage problems. Then by 1800, 90000 people. The docks? Shipping?

And remember, the official reason for the hall was entertainment for the people.... the people demanded it...



The book, in honesty reveals very little about the Hospital or asylum, and admits there are very little facts to proof anything. No newspaper articles on its construction, the builders, zip. Sounds familiar.

It does reveal the area was very sparce of buildings almost up to the arrival of St Georges.. ive attached x few pages of interest below.







St Georges Hall is mentioned twice on the book as being 'whst now stands on the ground of the hospital'


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2019-11-07 20:10:27Reaction Score: 1


Ireland.  That's why we call Liverpool the capital of Ireland .

OK today I emailed Liverpool Record Office who are situated in the library


----------



## Verity (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: VerityDate: 2019-11-08 02:54:01Reaction Score: 1




Timeshifter said:


>


I'd like to know what a 'salivating ward for men' is supposed to be.


----------



## Mike Nolan (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: WarningGuyDate: 2019-11-08 03:19:43Reaction Score: 1




Verity said:


> salivating ward for men


 This might explain.

Excessive saliva in adults: Causes and remedies to treat - From Doctor

Told in the Drooling Ward


----------



## KD Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: KorbenDallasDate: 2019-11-08 03:31:44Reaction Score: 3


This Infirmary looks just like our _Foundlings Hospital + __SH Thread_.




_Source_


_Source_


----------



## Verity (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: VerityDate: 2019-11-08 03:44:58Reaction Score: 1




WarningGuy said:


> This might explain.
> 
> Excessive saliva in adults: Causes and remedies to treat - From Doctor
> 
> Told in the Drooling Ward


Yep, found it, figured it out from this quote; "Several thousand were admitted for treatment on the Hospital wards every year, ... to the deeply unpleasant and painful mercury-based "salivation" treatments"


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-08 07:44:44Reaction Score: 0




KorbenDallas said:


> This Infirmary looks just like a _Foundlings Hospital + __SH Thread_.
> 
> View attachment 33765
> 
> ...


Wow, I had not clocked the similarity!


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-08 07:51:33Reaction Score: 0


Well done getting hold of that book and posting some pages. Straight off the bat how did the author discover there were 5,000 inhabitants in 1700 and make the leap to 11,000 people 25 years later in an era of no census, by  aking a guess of course based on old records. NoHe then conradicts his description of the towns port and assumption that the port was the reason why the town was there. From memory wasn't this the era of canal building work brought in at the time of neededing to move the aw materils to the factories/mills/foundrys/kilns etc being buit where water was the primary means of heavy or bulky transport?
Would seem that the labour force for the canal building would be the reason for the increase in population as the builders brought families and often extended families with them and not all of them lived in the travelling camps that went along the canals as they were built. Getting an accurate number of people is a fruitless exercise with a transient and mobile population my guess is the people of te day didn't bother it's only done by people telling tales of yore, to sell a book or establish credibility within the article or even just back guessed so too peak from published census dates from the 1800's, prior to the census coming in and even that is untrustworthy as I know from my own digging into my family folk disappeared on the census or appeared at three or four addresses on the same census and all they were doing was moving from house to house on census night ahead or behind the enumerator.

At least he has the decency to say 'estimated' or his 90,000 figure!

The Earl of Derby opened the thing eh so making a guess of my own I'd lay odds the land it was built on if not most of the land in Liverpool at that time was owned by the Earl of Derby so if anywhere the opening of this infirmary or indeed the deeds to the right to use the land for the infirmary would be in the Earls of Derby private papers. Wonder if he asked too see them or even if they survive.

So the land was owned by the council prior to building not the Earl of Derby, according to the author, and it was only leased. Interesting.

Three floors with attics and cellars and made of bricks faced with stone. A familiar building practice over the years following in many places here and in America. Cellars and attics in full use unlike today where their remains, walls and floors, appear in the ground as evidence of mud flooding, on occasion.
The drawings look very similar if not the same layout as those on the early 1768 map back up the thread.

I spent far too long last night trying to work out how a reset would render St George's being their when 'people who had been reset woke up' and couldn't figure it out. If you get a moment could you elaborate on how such a process could work in practice?


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2019-11-08 07:57:28Reaction Score: 1


My reply:

Thank you for your e mail

Unfortunately there would be no photographs – as construction started on the hall in 1841 and it opened in 1854 – so well before photography really came in to its own . Obviously we would have architects drawings / plans – but that’s not what you really want . We do have a collection of documents which may be of interest – described as correspondence etc of Robert Rawlinson – relating to St Georges Hall ( 920 RAW )  . I can’t say for certain – but there may be some sketches included in these . I have attached the index to the collection for your perusal – in case there may be anything you are interested in viewing . If you want to see anything from the collection – you will need to make an appointment with us – giving at least 2 working day’s notice . Just e mail us back with a preferred date/time for your booking and your item list ( limited to 10 per visit ) with full item references – and we will do our best to accommodate you .  Other than that I can only suggest contacting St George’s hall – to see if they can advise – see link below :-


Home: St George's Hall, Liverpool - Conference and Events Venue

I hope you find this information useful

Best wishes Karen

I can't seem to attach the download.


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-08 08:01:08Reaction Score: 2




jd755 said:


> Well done getting hold of that book and posting some pages. Straight off the bat how did the author discover there were 5,000 inhabitants in 1700 and make the leap to 11,000 people 25 years later in an era of no census, by  aking a guess of course based on old records. NoHe then conradicts his description of the towns port and assumption that the port was the reason why the town was there. From memory wasn't this the era of canal building work brought in at the time of neededing to move the aw materils to the factories/mills/foundrys/kilns etc being buit where water was the primary means of heavy or bulky transport?
> Would seem that the labour force for the canal building would be the reason for the increase in population as the builders brought families and often extended families with them and not all of them lived in the travelling camps that went along the canals as they were built. Getting an accurate number of people is a fruitless exercise with a transient and mobile population my guess is the people of te day didn't bother it's only done by people telling tales of yore, to sell a book or establish credibility within the article or even just back guessed so too peak from published census dates from the 1800's, prior to the census coming in and even that is untrustworthy as I know from my own digging into my family folk disappeared on the census or appeared at three or four addresses on the same census and all they were doing was moving from house to house on census night ahead or behind the enumerator.
> 
> At least he has the decency to say 'estimated' or his 90,000 figure!
> ...


It's a theory. Nothing is reset as in taken back to zero. No ones minds are reset. I see it as more somekind of coming together of realities. Some kind of cataclism where some survive  some don't. During which, bits of one reality end up in another, hence all of those 'neoclassical' buildings that look out of place, the tech we cant figure out, undetgrounds etc, stories that don't make sense are so because they did not originate it our reality.

To explain this to the regular folk, history is fabricated, and memories are short, especially in desperate times.

Something like that.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-08 08:04:03Reaction Score: 1




Timeshifter said:


> It's a theory. Nothing is reset as in taken back to zero. No ones minds are reset. I see it as more somekimd of coming together of realities. Some kind of cataclism where some survive  some don't. During which, bits of one reality end up in another, hence all of those 'neoclassical' buildings that look out of place, the tech we cant figure out, undetgrounds etc, stories that don't make sense are so because they did not originate it our reality.
> 
> To explain this to the regular folk, history is fabricated, and memories are short, especially in desperate times.
> 
> Something like that.


Thanks. I get where you are coming from. Brought to mind the ending of the Lion the witch and the wardrobe series where Aslan closed one reality down and opened another.


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-08 08:04:13Reaction Score: 1




Beedubya said:


> My reply:
> 
> Thank you for your e mail
> 
> ...


Unfortumately, we know.there should be photos. That is a pretty standard and expected response.

Perhaps there are mega details in newspapers, journals, letters etc...? Have you managed to read the attachment?

Ty for doing what you can


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2019-11-08 08:07:00Reaction Score: 1


This is what's in the attachment:

*Liverpool Record Office

920 RAW: CORRESPONDENCE OF ROBERT RAWLINSON RELATING TO ST. GEORGE'S HALL*

In the printed version of the correspondence, there appears a letter, dated 27 September, 1841, from H. L. Elmes to Rawlinson, which does not form part of the collection of MS. letters presented by Rawlinson to the Library. Letters of 15 November 1841, 12 May 1842, 12 October 1842 and 7 January 1843, which do form part of this collection, do not appear in the printed version. MS. transcripts of the letter were prepared in the Library during the nineteenth century. 1841-1863.124 documents. Robert Rawlinson, Assistant Surveyor to Liverpool Corporation, 1840-43, assisted Harvey Lonsdale Elmes in the construction of St. Goerge's Hall. Harvey Lonsdale Elmes was born near Chichester on 10 February, 1814, the son of James Elmes, architect and author of several works on architecture. In 1836, a fund was opened in Liverpool for the construction of a concert hall for large scale performances and a foundation stone was laid in 1838. Nothing further was done, however, until in March 1839, a competition for the design of a hall was announced. Harvey Lonsdale Elmes entered and his was the winning design amongst 75 entries. In 1840, the Corporation decided to build new Assize Courts and a second competition was held. Elmes' design was again chosen, from 86 entries. It was then suggested that the two buildings be combined and the Corporation finance the construction of one large block. The City Architect, Franklin, was commissioned to prepare a design but Elmes claimed the right to revise his designs and Franklin generously gave him his plans to facilitate this. Elmes' revised designs were accepted and building work began in 1842. Elmes worked long hours to achieve perfection but ill-health made frequent journeys from his London office to Liverpool impossible. Robert Rawlinson, Assistant Surveyor to Liverpool Corporation, 1840-1843, helped Elmes by supervising construction work on the spot and his interest continued, ever after Rawlinson became engineer to the Bridgewater Trust in 1843. The two were thus in correspondence. By 1847, Elmes' health had so deteriorated that he was advised to go to the West Indies, where he died on 27 November, 1847, aged 33. However, Elmes had left drawing detailing his intentions for the Hall and work continued for four years under the general supervision of Rawlinson, to whom Elmes' plans and papers had been left. The final work of decoration, sculpture, etc., was completed by C. R. Cockerell, appointed to the task on Rawlinson's recommendation. The building was opened in 1854. In later years, Sir Robert Rawlinson was accused by some of having assumed too much responsibility for the building of the Hall. By way of defence against these charges, he published his correspondence with Elmes and others, privately, in 1871, under the title: Correspondence relative to St. George's Hall [Ref: H 942.7213 GEO]Access will be granted to any accredited reader For further information on Elmes, the architectural features of St. Georges Hall and the work of C. R. Cockerell, SEE: Ronald P. Jones: Life and Work of Harvey Lonsdale Elmes, in Architectural Review, v. 15, June 1904, and R. P. Cockerell: Life and Work of C. R. Cockerell: op. cit., v. 12, August and October 1902 [REF. Hq 920 COC]. For further records relating to St. George's Hall, SEE 900 MD 19-21.


Timeshifter said:


> Unfortumately, we know.there should be photos. That is a pretty standard and expected response.
> 
> Perhaps there are mega details in newspapers, journals, letters etc...? Have you managed to read the attachment?
> 
> Ty for doing what you can


I must have walked past St George's Hall hundreds of times and had no real interest until I started reading about the Tartarian buildings. It's just, until now, been a part of my landscape since childhood, I've obviously always acknowledged it's a beautiful building but that was about it.


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-08 08:23:24Reaction Score: 1




Beedubya said:


> This is what's in the attachment:
> 
> *Liverpool Record Office
> 
> ...


Wow, thats pretty embarrassing if that is all the library has! Or is it all they are allowed to share, Karen probably doesn't know any truths.

Looks like we will have to hit the streets/ relatives/ friends/ great grandparents to see if anything exists.

Thanks again!


----------



## KD Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: KorbenDallasDate: 2019-11-08 08:24:16Reaction Score: 1


Not sure if this picture is of any use, but there it is.

Additionally, may be some paintings are worth taking a look at.

_Views in Modern Liverpool. | SPL Rare Books: Norman R Bobins_


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-08 08:55:11Reaction Score: 1




KorbenDallas said:


> Not sure if this picture is of any use, but there it is.
> 
> View attachment 33778Additionally, may be some paintings are worth taking a look at.
> 
> _Views in Modern Liverpool. | SPL Rare Books: Norman R Bobins_


This lines up with Maps of the same time, which incidentally, 3 or 4 of which have turned up online, in the same places I have looked at maps for the last year, they were not there until when I have looked the last few days!

Ackerman's 1847 panoramic, but tbh this could have been drawn anytime


Good job I am not paranoid....

This image JD posted a few pages back, is the only one anywhere online I can see that claims this building to be under construction.

This building is old, weathered, dirty, not new, imo.

A slight aside, but another building of interest in Liverpool is the 5th Customs House, on the old docks. Complete 1839, demolished 1948 after being slightly damaged in the blitz. Where have we heard that before. Even less info and images on this one, considering it survived for so long. (I will start a new thread)


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2019-11-08 09:02:52Reaction Score: 1




Timeshifter said:


> This lines up with Maps of the same time, which incidentally, 3 or 4 of which have turned up online, in the same places I have looked at maps for the last year, they were not there until when I have looked the last few days!
> 
> Ackerman's 1847 panoramic, but tbh this could have been drawn anytime
> 
> ...


So it should be gleaming if new right?


----------



## KD Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: KorbenDallasDate: 2019-11-08 09:08:45Reaction Score: 1


New building, new thread please.


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-08 09:49:36Reaction Score: 1




KorbenDallas said:


> New building, new thread please.


apologies KD, have made one Here


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-08 11:41:26Reaction Score: 1


A few more snippets and sources this time courtesy of gibiru and the search string; made the bronze doors for St George's hall Liverpool.

From here; Statues in Liverpool - Page 6 - SkyscraperCity
_One thing i've noticed photographing some of the sculpture and architectural detail around the city centre is the different types of stone. Some stone, which appears to be sandstone is remarkably good condition considering some,like St George's Hall are over 150 years old. The reliefs on the Lyceum, are still crisp, as is the carving on the frieze of the town hall, both these buildings are over 200 years old. *I know St George's Hall and i think most of the William Brown St group are made of Darley Dale stone,better known as Stancliffe stone. It is a type of sandstone but much tougher than our local sandstone, which is a type of stone called New Red sandstone,it extends well in to cheshire and as far north as cumbria. Our local sandstone weathers and erodes badly, the estimate is 100 years exposure to the elements before noticeable erosion starts.*_

From here; St George's Hall
_At the south entrance of the building will be a large and massive pair of bronze doors, 21ft high and 11ft wide, they are of rich design, and weigh about 7tons. Each leaf weighs in itself about 2 and a half tons, and works very freely, but as the labour of opening and shutting these doors frequently would be very great, there will be a wicket on one of them. These are the largest metal doors in England._

From here; St. George's Hall, Liverpool - Conservation and new-build projects - Calibre Metalwork
_St. George's Hall, Liverpool

These bronze doors into the basement of St. George’s Hall, Liverpool look relatively insignificant in scale with the building, but they are nearly twelve feet high! In regular use as a visitor entrance, the doors had become difficult for staff to operate. Our survey identified that wear in the hinges had allowed the doors to sag. The problem was solved by repairs and modifications to the hinge units and we are continuing to service and monitor them._

From here; The South Front of St George's Hall, Liverpool on JSTOR

From Flickr a lovely comparison of the colour and the black and white versions of the sandstone. click the right hand arrow to see the b&w photo.

St. George's Hall, Liverpool


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-08 12:25:15Reaction Score: 3


_'These bronze doors into the basement of St. George’s Hall, Liverpool look relatively insignificant in scale with the building, but they are nearly twelve feet high! In regular use as a visitor entrance, the doors had become difficult for staff to operate.'

A 12 foot door for a 5" 6' average person, they will get difficult.

Who would build a 12 foot door for regular use by a  5" 6' person?_

My guess, the door was made for someone strong, and closer to 10ft in height.


Discovered some great interior shots here Interior


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2019-11-08 12:33:30Reaction Score: 1




Timeshifter said:


> _'These bronze doors into the basement of St. George’s Hall, Liverpool look relatively insignificant in scale with the building, but they are nearly twelve feet high! In regular use as a visitor entrance, the doors had become difficult for staff to operate.'
> 
> A 12 foot door for a 5" 6' average person, they will get difficult.
> 
> ...


The average height would have been less then.  How would a person have the strength to open those huge heavy doors?

I still live quite near and am happy to take photos if required for clarification


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-08 12:48:15Reaction Score: 0




Timeshifter said:


> My guess, the door was made for someone strong, and closer to 10ft in height.


Those doors you have put white boxes around admitted horsedrawn prison vans into the basement and its holding cells according to the newspaper article transcript.


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2019-11-08 13:00:05Reaction Score: 1


Possible, this is what meets you as you enter the one top of the hill on the right

Left view



Right View



And looking back towards the entrance...



And looking forward as you come through those two columns

I am no expert, but dropping cons off with horse and carriage?


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-08 13:19:21Reaction Score: 2


Yeah at second look that door looks more like an entrance and exit to and from the court. The article is probably referring to the pair on the left whereas the door repairers are referring to the ones you went through.
Here's the cell side innards ; The secrets of St George's Hall, Liverpool. Pictures Colin Lane


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: StarmonkeyDate: 2019-11-08 13:53:09Reaction Score: 1




Timeshifter said:


> It's a theory. Nothing is reset as in taken back to zero. No ones minds are reset. I see it as more somekind of coming together of realities. Some kind of cataclism where some survive  some don't. During which, bits of one reality end up in another, hence all of those 'neoclassical' buildings that look out of place, the tech we cant figure out, undetgrounds etc, stories that don't make sense are so because they did not originate it our reality.
> 
> To explain this to the regular folk, history is fabricated, and memories are short, especially in desperate times.
> 
> Something like that.


No, BUT I've pulled from several sources that if the EM of the earth drops, LOTS of things happen. So, in low flux or pole switch, we ALSO lose our memories and our minds. The background frequency which holds it all together having dropped off. More "together" individuals have a better chance of coming through. MAYBE there's healings or therapies for it, but i haven't heard about them.


----------



## wild heretic (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: wild hereticDate: 2019-11-08 14:09:13Reaction Score: 3




Huaqero said:


> Could a building like this be the source of 'Elgin Marbles/Statues, stolen from the Parthenon in Greece'...?
> Well, another scenario could be that they were leftovers of a destroyed 'St. George Hall' style building somewhere in Britain, kept in the basements of the British Museum and resurfaced under a made up story of 'theft' from a balkan village with a big temple ruin on top (remind you that no official Ottoman paper for their transportation exists)
> 
> Very interesting find and well written research...



My guess is that its a relic from "Roman" times. Of course, I've no idea when that really was. Later middle ages? Renaissance? 1700s? The building existed in between one of the earth changing epochs that changed Britain I suppose. But only speculations of course.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2019-11-10 15:09:39Reaction Score: 1


Some photos taken in November 2015


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: RecognitionDate: 2019-11-10 19:42:31Reaction Score: 2



"Construction" looks drawn in. (I played with contrast). Love it that this is one of the only pics available of it supposedly being built.  Such a great thread!


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2019-11-19 18:17:37Reaction Score: 1


This was in a Facebook group. Nice clean streets.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-11-19 19:20:36Reaction Score: 1


My feeling about this image and the many like it is they are fakes produced for reasons I don't know by people I don't know, when I don't know.
As every photograph on here is in digital form then obviously in computer fakery is a prime candidate for how. Beyond photoshop or photoshop version 77.9 for example if you get my drift produced in my lifetime but equally post processing after the photograph was taken by mechanisms unknown today could be in play.
The shadows and the way the light falls on everything in the image and the shadows or lack of them seem to scream manipulation.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2020-01-07 18:08:29Reaction Score: 2


Today I was doing some family history research and came across St John's Church and it's burial grounds and remembered the conversation on here about the poverty at the time (please see the attachment) .  My 3 x great grandfather is buried in St John's Gardens unless his body was one of those removed though that might only have been for the better off.  I phoned my 91 year old mother to tell her and she believes St George's Hall has been there for many, many hundreds if not thousands of years.
The church was completed in 1784 yet if you expand the image above you can see the columns of a very large building 

_St. John's Church stood against St. George Hall, on the site of what is now St. John's Gardens. The burial ground for the church, with a small chapel, was consecrated and opened for use in 1767 but the church itself was not completed until 1784. The architect of the church building was Timothy (sometimes given as Thomas) Lightoler._
_In the year it was completed, St John’s served one of the most crowded and poorest areas of the city. Mid-1780’s Burial records indicate the degree of abject poverty to be found locally. Nearly one-in-two of the deaths that occurred were of children whilst in only one–in-four cases were people able to fund their own, or a relative’s, funeral. One-in-four burials were of paupers, two-in-three of whom were from the Poorhouse._
_St. John's churchyard was closed for burials on 11th June 1865, 82,491 bodies having been interred in the grounds. St. John's Church was closed under the terms of the Liverpool City Churches Act 1897 The last Sunday service took place in St. John's on 27th March 1898._
_When he church was demolished, Peet wrote, 'For more that a century this unsightly structure has been allowed to disfigure the landscape ... as an example of ecclesiastical art the church of St. John has not a single redeeming feature....'. Under a facility granted on 11th December 1888 Liverpool Corporation was empowered to lay out the churchyard as the public gardens to be known as St. John's Gardens._
_Early Baptismal records contain a number of mentions of people from Africa, Jamaica, New Guinea and other countries. These record possible mariners or, reflecting that most unsavoury aspect of Liverpool’s past, slaves given English names._
_Lancashire OnLine Parish Clerk Project -  District of Liverpool_
__


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: StarmonkeyDate: 2020-01-07 18:18:09Reaction Score: 1




Beedubya said:


> Today I was doing some family history research and came across St John's Church and it's burial grounds and remembered the conversation on here about the poverty at the time (please see the attachment) .  My 3 x great grandfather is buried in St John's Gardens unless his body was one of those removed though that might only have been for the better off.  I phoned my 91 year old mother to tell her and she believes St George's Hall has been there for many, many hundreds if not thousands of years.


Gotta keep paying! From the cradle BEYOND the grave. So many great scams over the ages... So many gullible people.
I'd like to go somewhere in nature. Not worry about the continuation or marker. The cycle can have this body back.
Guess I'll have to come give the old "mother land" a toss here soon. Touch a few things. Try and REMEMBER.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2020-01-07 18:18:21Reaction Score: 1


The church was completed in 1784 yet if you expand the image above you can see the columns of a very large building


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: StarmonkeyDate: 2020-01-07 18:19:29Reaction Score: 0




Beedubya said:


> The church was completed in 1784 yet if you expand the image above you can see the columns of a very large building


That foundation for the back is enormous!


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2020-01-07 18:21:45Reaction Score: 1


Of course the painting of the church could have been done after St George's Hall was built but it's all a bit strange.


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2020-01-07 18:47:19Reaction Score: 3




Beedubya said:


> Today I was doing some family history research and came across St John's Church and it's burial grounds and remembered the conversation on here about the poverty at the time (please see the attachment) .  My 3 x great grandfather is buried in St John's Gardens unless his body was one of those removed though that might only have been for the better off.  I phoned my 91 year old mother to tell her and she believes St George's Hall has been there for many, many hundreds if not thousands of years.
> The church was completed in 1784 yet if you expand the image above you can see the columns of a very large building


That is definately the corner of St Georges! Would love to hear more from your Ma!


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2020-01-07 19:03:28Reaction Score: 3




Timeshifter said:


> That is definately the corner of St Georges! Would love to hear more from your Ma!
> 
> View attachment 37830


Not much more to report but she pooh poohed it when I said St George's was built in 1841 she was like no those history books are wrong lol.  Maybe we need to get to libraries and look for old history books.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: ScottFreemanDate: 2020-01-07 19:19:49Reaction Score: 1




KorbenDallas said:


> I highly question the narrative pertaining to the US of A being at arms with Britain ever. At least not the type of the United States we know today.  That’s the narrative version we received on our end.
> 
> I also have reasons not trust in such things as out of the blue inventions, i.e. industrial revolutions. Especially when from time to time complicated technological examples bleed through when they were not supposed to.
> 
> I always say that the totality of circumstances has to be considered, and that things do not exist in the vacuum of their own.


No I don't believe that either.  The "US of A" referenced can be said to be the first two branches of America's contracted government.  Those being the British Territorial and the Papist Municipal that are combined to mean "federal".   There is another branch, the one that isn't talked about, called National (actual Americans on the soil jurisdiction).  So no, Britain was never 'at war' with itself.  And, since 1066 there has been no true royalty running Britain anyway (the Queen abdicated three days after her coronation and accepted the office of The Chair of the Estates (from the Holy See))...if the things we're told about that war are true.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: El MesíasDate: 2020-01-07 20:09:37Reaction Score: 1


I was always confused by the name of the park on the Western side of St.George's Hall - 'St.John's Gardens'. It wasn't until last year that I found out it came from the church that previously occupied the site.

The church and the hall co-existed for a number of years. It is said to be the reason for the more 'simple' design on that side of the hall.


----------



## Whitewave (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: whitewaveDate: 2020-01-08 02:17:06Reaction Score: 5


Gotta read the fine print on the burial plot contracts. "Forever" legally equates to 100 years. Then they can dig you up and bury someone else in that spot. Found that out when, as a teenager, I drove past an old cemetery plot that wasn't very large and I wondered how they still had room for new burials after all this time. Next time I attended a funeral I asked the director and he explained it. Cemetery plots seem like a waste of perfectly good real estate to me. Plant a tree over each biodegradable cremation urn and make a memorial wall for all the names/dates. These older churches with "sacred ground" cemeteries on church grounds must not be burying anyone else cuz the old headstones are still in place...so, not digging up the old and burying new ones. As for finding old history books, I was excited to find a 1901 American history book last week only to get 3 pages into it and realize it might as well have been written yesterday. Haven't finished it as the discouragement of reading how Columbus discovered America was not motivation to continue reading further. So we know that by 1901 history was already corrupted. Have to see if I can find older ones.


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2020-01-13 10:16:47Reaction Score: 1


I came across this Design for 'St Georges Place' by Architect Henry Sumner which apparently never made the cut... Apparently Mr Sumner was also a failed inventor...

Source for the article below.

This act of reflection was also done back in January 1911 when a local newspaper reprinted a marvellous artist’s impression of long-lost engineering works that had once been set to totally transform the city.

From the Article:

_*'With the completion of the magnificent St George’s Hall in the autumn of 1854, Liverpool entered an era of confidence not unlike our own which followed the Capital of Culture optimism.Our Liverpudlian predecessors wished to see a continuation of their town’s progression with the creation of more grand, more respectable surroundings for their new neo-classical masterpiece.*_
*
The ambitious plans that followed were the brainchild of architect Henry Sumners.
He envisaged massive changes to the Haymarket, St Johns, William Brown Street, Queen’s Square and Williamson Square.

The most prominent feature of his urbanite dream was a huge salt water bath-house, complete with 150 foot dome and bell tower. This would have occupied the site of the Gladstone Memorial and the entrance to the Mersey Tunnel.

He also pictured a union between the Williamson and Queen Squares to create one large fruit, flower and vegetable market along with an adjoining hotel. Sumners was reported to have been very forward-thinking in regards to his view of Liverpool, far in advance of certain members of the council.

His Latin motto ‘Artibus Legibus Consiliis Locum Municipes Constituerunt Anno Domini MLCCCXLI’ (For Arts, Law and Counsel the townspeople built this place in 1841) is still clear to see on the south façade of the hall, but this was not by unanimous choice. One councillor wished to see something more representative of Liverpool’s trade endeavours, such as rum, sugar cotton and corn, while another put forward the rather direct slogan, "The land we live in and those who don’t like it may leave it."

What a charming message for visitors to Lime Street Station that would have been!

Hopes for William Brown Street to be filled with a library and museums did come to pass, but ideas towards relocating the Georgian church of St Johns to the corner of Hatton Garden were less successful.
*
_*This was eventually torn down in 1898 and gardens now occupy the former sacred site. Nevertheless, the image above does give us a precious insight into the stately and imposing sights Sumner had in mind for us and in some sentimental way we can now appreciate what could have been. Who knows how Liverpool will fair in another century and a half, but as the light of 2013 dawns over the hopeful waters of the Mersey, we surely wish her the best of luck'*_

How do we know this in not another actual drawing of what was actually there at some point?

The view today


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BeedubyaDate: 2020-03-01 20:43:07Reaction Score: 1


A new view


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: El MesíasDate: 2020-03-01 20:50:52Reaction Score: 1


Where did the Frieze go?


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2020-03-02 08:13:50Reaction Score: 1




Beedubya said:


> A new view
> 
> View attachment 41800


Do you have a date for this one? The relief is still present on the end, however I am not sure how much it looks like this....

Found this just now Link sounds like fairytales to me....


This is one of the earliest photographs of St George’s Hall and we can date it relatively accurately due to two facts. Firstly, because of the steps up to the South Entrance. We know, because of newspaper reports at the time, that they had been removed by the December of 1854. Secondly, we also know the name of the photographer – it is accredited to a ‘Mr Forrest’. Now, under normal circumstances, that wouldn’t be overly helpful, but, we know that photographs were a relatively new medium and that a Mr James A Forrest is listed as one of the founding members of the Liverpool Photographic Society that was started in March 1853. So using that information, and the additional fact that the shadows cast are sharp from the sun being very high in the sky, we can hazard a pretty good guess that it is the summertime of 1853 or 1854.

So, what happened to the steps?  Simply put, they were removed because they didn’t fit in with what the architect who was working on the building wanted to achieve.  Harvey Lonsdale Elmes, the original architect of St George’s Hall died in 1847. In 1851, Charles Robert Cockerell was called in to deal mainly with the internal decoration of the Hall.  Cockerell also had several ideas to improve upon the designs of Elmes for the exterior that he pitched to the Corporation (the governing body of Liverpool).  They were excited about these ideas and allowed him to proceed.

Cockerell remodelled St George’s Plateau and removed the steps during this process.  His idea was to have St George’s Hall look like the Parthenon atop the Acropolis in Athens and the steps spoilt the overall effect.

Cockerell also had another idea – to place a sculpture within the empty tympanum that was above the South Entrance. The sculpture can be seen clearly in the above photograph.

That sculpture, and what happened to it, is what we will now look at in more depth:

During the building of St George’s Hall, the original Architect, Harvey Lonsdale Elmes was taken ill with consumption and died in 1847 before seeing its completion. In 1851, Elmes’ mentor, Charles Robert Cockerell was asked to design the interior decoration. Whilst doing this, he also added a couple of his own flourishes to the building – one of which being a sculptured pediment on the South Entrance.

It should be noted that Elmes’ original sketches for his competition entry for an assizes did have a rough sketching of a sculpture in the pediment on the portico (as he had no doubt been inspired for his design by the Fitzwilliam Museum in Cambridge (which, incidentally, Cockerell had worked on)

Whereas his original sketch for the hall shows an empty tympanum. On combining the hall with the assizes, he translated the central tympanum to the south entrance of the hall along with the pediment idea for the assizes.

Even though his amended design showed a rudimentary sculptured pediment in the tympanum, Elmes had personally inspected the finished stone works and – allegedly – declared that the space was never meant to be hidden.

As mentioned earlier, during C R Cockerell’s involvement in the decoration of the building (from 1851), along with ideas such as an extended Plateau, Minton floor, Grand Organ and Small Concert Room, he also wanted a sculpture for the empty tympanum. He based it on a drawing that he had previously completed which was entitled ‘Idea for the Frontispiece of a Public Building in England’ that had greatly impressed Elmes. To have it carved, Cockerell turned to William Grinsell Nicholl, a sculptor who had held his patronage for some time. (Nicholl also designed the Lions and mermaid and merman lampholders that are on the plateau.

The completed sculpture has the following written description: “Britannia armed, her lion by her side, and seated on a rock, forms the centre: she holds in her left hand the olive-branch, and in her right the spear. She hails the four quarters of the globe, presented to her by Mercury; the last of whom, Africa, inclines with the form of the pediment and, with her negro children, acknowledges her obligations to the queen of freedom, who laboured so long and successfully for their emancipation: beyond are the vine and foreign productions; the husbandman and his plough, his wife with the distaff, and her child, express industry, manufacture, and domesticity: at the end are labourers at the anvil, the anchor, and the arms of mail, which she has not forgotten how to use”

So what on earth happened to it?!

The sculpture was carved in Caen limestone, a relatively soft stone. Over the years, acidic rain had damaged it badly and in August 1950, large chunks of stone, some weighing around 50lb, fell more than 100ft to the ground below. Luckily, no one was injured.

The plan was to have it sorted by the following year in time for Festival of Britain, but on inspection it was discovered that the sculpture was too badly damaged to repair – at least in situ. The decision to take it down and put into temporary storage was made, but subsequent inspections showed that it was irreparable and therefore the sad decision to break it up for hardcore road-fill was made.

The missing pediment sculpture has been a great source of controversy for the city. There are many stories of why it was removed that neglect the fact that it was basically rotting and falling down anyway.

The most commonly repeated story is that it was removed or sanded off the hall because it depicted black slaves bowing before the might of Britannia. Now as the description above shows, this could not be further from the truth as it showed the role of Britain in the abolition of slavery. But nevertheless, it’s still a subject of great controversy.

Another tale is that it was secretly sold to an American, and there are also stories of the council denying that there ever was a sculpture in the pediment in the first place. Now, this I can believe! Not because the council is hiding the fact that it was ever there, but the denial is simply down to ignorance. Not everyone is interested in the history of the city’s buildings, so why should we expect every person on the council to have knowledge about them? It’s likely that the persons who have been challenged are simply unaware of its existence… Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity (or ignorance)

Since the removal of the sculpture, a few attempts to have it replaced have been made. In the 1980s, a suggestion to recreate it in stone-faced, reinforced plastic was put forward. However, austerity was biting hard and this was dismissed due to the “city’s economic climate”.

In the 1990s, political correctness scuppered plans by a group of sculptors to recreate it. Anti-racist groups jumped onto the rumour that the black figures kneeling before Britannia symbolised the slave trade and felt that recreating the pediment would offend the city’s black population. The same group also petitioned the council to change the names of all the roads related to the slave trade, but that is a story for another time!

A more recent attempt to recreate it had a new design made where the controversial figure that was causing all of the ruckus was changed to be “more like a chieftain, more like a king. Instead of kneeling down he is sitting in a more regal manner”. That was back in the early 2000s, and kind of just lost impetus from, I’m guessing, a lack of funds.

We will never know with 100% certainty if Harvey Lonsdale Elmes did actually want a sculpture in the pediment of St George’s Hall, or whether Cockerell decided to add it on his own. However, we do know that Elmes was relatively minimalist when it came to the decoration of his masterpiece – his completed rooms are plainly decorated and fit well with the Victorian ideal that the look of something should not detract from the purpose for which it was designed. Whereas, Cockerell with his Minton Floor, Grand Organ and the beautifully over-the-top gold Concert Room displays a love of decoration and flamboyance.


With these two facts taken into account, it seems likely that Cockerell himself decided to fill the pediment with a sculpture. That fact that he used a design that was liked by Elmes may have been a nod to his mentee who had sadly died only a few years earlier.

So, should the sculpture be replaced? If Elmes was indeed happy with the empty tympanum, should we leave it as, or should we follow Cockerell’s lead and put in a sculpture. And if a new sculpture is to be made, should we stick with the original design, or perhaps have a new one that shows a different scene?


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2020-07-21 06:29:12Reaction Score: 1


Came across this on facebook just now. States 1866, but could be anywhen looking at the carriages. What would those ariels/ masts be for in 1866?



Edit to add. 12 years open in 1866, it appears extremely old and aged, imo


----------



## Timeshifter (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: TimeshifterDate: 2020-07-30 08:57:41Reaction Score: 1


Discovered another, much earlier. This one supposedly 1851, 3 years prior to its completion. (A lantern slide of the original) Some work going on mid image to the right, construction or repair? I would say the latter,. Does this look like a new build (Ok, ten years of construction or so) ? Look at that sky...

Oldest Photo of Liverpool


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: Divine WindDate: 2020-07-30 13:58:50Reaction Score: 1




Timeshifter said:


> This lines up with Maps of the same time, which incidentally, 3 or 4 of which have turned up online, in the same places I have looked at maps for the last year, they were not there until when I have looked the last few days!
> 
> Ackerman's 1847 panoramic, but tbh this could have been drawn anytime
> 
> ...


Do the in situ windmills help in anyway to place the construction date?  Your first drawing shows 2 windmills, and it appears they are in and around present day Mill Lane (but perhaps only one would be visible from the perspective below).
Google Maps


This ties up with this painting, labelled as *1851 by William Wyld*. William Wyld - Wikipedia (Well connected : Establishment painter?)


The building does look a bit shiny on the nearest corner, and still does! (and doesn't match up with the present corner construction - artistic license, later expansion?), but the windmill is also clearly visible, as is the building in the foreground.  *When was that windmill demolished, if real?*  (possibly in Mill Lane) as I can't find it on this list below, and *when was the building in the foreground to the left demolished?*
St Georges Hall, Liverpool

Then, another painting with the same corner arrangement as the '1851' painting.  Is it just a lazy artist thing?  as the real columns are not equally spaced. No shiny columns.  It is noticeable that there is a gated arrangment around the building, and no windmill is detailed.  The painting is shown in wiki, and is 'from the 1800's'.   *How old is the church behind, what church is it?*
Assume this one demolished in 1890  St. John's Parish Church in Liverpool, Merseyside - Find A Grave Cemetery


File:A PAINTING ON CANVAS AT ST GEORGES HALL OF ST GEORGES HALL LIVERPOOL IN THE 1800.S TAKEN JAN 2013 (9615323017).jpg - Wikimedia Commons

Why would the building be gated off, it's almost as if it's a very important building, even at that date.  No windmills, was this prior to any windmills?  Is this an old painting that is being put on display that is actually showing some form of truth?  When was this painted, and by whom?


*List of windmills, where are the windmills detailed in and around Mill lane?*
Liverpool Windmills   can't tie any of these in
List of windmills in Lancashire - Wikipedia  any of these tie in?


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2020-07-30 15:50:26Reaction Score: 1




Timeshifter said:


> Discovered another, much earlier.


Recognition beat ya to it! St George's Hall, Liverpool.
Or my eyes aen't rendering properly.



Divine Wind said:


> where are the windmills


Windmills in Lime Street _St George's Hall, Liverpool._
More on Liverpool windmills St George's Hall, Liverpool.

Another painting. Source

                       John Fulleylove  (British, 1845–1908)    _A crowd outside St George's Hall, Liverpool_
A design or architectural drawing.
Source.
RIBAPIX REF NO    RIBA21100
COUNTRY    UK: England
CITY    Liverpool
SUBJECT DATE    1834
IMAGE DATE    1834
VIEW    Exterior
STYLE    Classical Revival
MEDIUM    Drawing
LIBRARY REFERENCE SD61/12(2)
ORIENTATION    Landscape
COLOUR / B&W    Colour
CREDIT    RIBA Collections
NOTES    NOTES: This drawing is by an unidentified 18th century English architect and is likely to be a competition design for the Hall. The competition was won by Harvey Lonsdale Elmes.

And just to prove digital is a dodgy sort of recording medium.
Source.

A digitally constructed antique style painting of St Georges Hall Liverpool UK is a painting by Ken Biggs which was uploaded on April 16th, 2015.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: Divine WindDate: 2020-07-31 16:19:24Reaction Score: 0




Timeshifter said:


> Came across this on facebook just now. States 1866, but could be anywhen looking at the carriages. What would those ariels/ masts be for in 1866?
> 
> View attachment 49837
> 
> Edit to add. 12 years open in 1866, it appears extremely old and aged, imo


That photo is i believe the best old photo that ties in with my hypothesis below. ie the south east coner has been recently extended. I believe the northern end is too far away to clearly show that section as a new build, but it does appear brighter than the mid section with the round columns. And, these are the days before the 'Industrial revolution' and all the soot being layered on buildings, therefore parts of the building even look old without all the soot.

Note, the frieze looks new as well, which again ties in with my theory.



jd755 said:


> Recognition beat ya to it! St George's Hall, Liverpool.
> Or my eyes aen't rendering properly.
> 
> 
> ...


"A design or architectural drawing"?   I was wondering the same about these two drawings (not the photo)


This is the source site St George’s Hall Missing Pediment Sculpture – Independent Liverpool

_"During the building of St George’s Hall, the original Architect, Harvey Lonsdale Elmes was taken ill with consumption and died in 1847 before seeing its completion. In 1851, Elmes’ mentor, Charles Robert Cockerell was asked to design the interior decoration. Whilst doing this, he also added a couple of his own flourishes to the building – one of which being a sculptured pediment on the South Entrance.

It should be noted that Elmes’ original sketches for his competition entry for an assizes did have a rough sketching of a sculpture in the pediment on the portico (as he had no doubt been inspired for his design by the Fitzwilliam Museum in Cambridge (which, incidentally, Cockerell had worked on)"._

I am wondering whether both of these sketches above are in fact the prior to the building being expanded in 1841 ie the bottom one is the oldest sketch, maybe hundreds or more years old, and the top stage was prior to 1841 (round columns are on the west side).  Would it be surprising if the building was extended northwards and the Corinthian columns moved from the west of the building to the east such that the building was a showpiece for the new Train Station which was complete in 1836.  ie 5 years before the Hall was expanded.

This may seem crazy, but it would allow for the architects to completely revamp the Hall and be able to name it a Victorian Building.  It does also fit in with the shiny new square columns on the more than one drawing.   Consider this, if the ancient round corinthian columns were moved to the east and south side, they would still look old, but any new square columns being constructed would look new   ie  *First sketch* has dull east and south round columns, but shiny eastern square columns. (date unknown but church is still there  - prior to 1890)

*Second sketch* of 1851 is exactly the same, but with slighly different south east corner. Windmill shown on the right, how about the left?



The first article above has Queen Victoria stating the following

"Described by Queen Victoria as a building ‘*worthy of ancient Athens*’, the neo-classical St George’s Hall, *Liverpool, is the epitome of Grecian grandeur*".


*It could be that the expansion consisted of the following:*
1. Main facade to the East was extended outwards, and existing columns were moved to the Station side.
2. North end was extended to include rounded end, and also include new square columns at the north east.
3. South east side was extended slightly out to include suquare columns.
4. South end was extended outwards and fitted with a frieze and exisiting old round columns.
5. Main Hall now has upper galleries
6. South end steps constructed.

*The South- East*
This is a newish photo from 1964 (cars - spot on), the south east corner may have just been cleaned, but maybe it hasn't.  Either way it shows what i am on about with the ancient corinthian columns, and the new south east extension, which I believe was mirrored but as a totally new extension on the north east and north west  ie with square columns.  The frieze has apparently been stolen, or disappeared, as nobody seems to know where it is.



Then you have *touched up photos.*  The upper one (1854) has been tarted up so that everything looks the same age, but unfortunately they forgot to make the south east columns look square. The lower one has made all the columns look similar, but remembered to make the SE columns square.



*West Side*
Here you have both ends, of which the SE may have been extended outwards, and the NE might be a completely new construction in 1841.  Both ends have square towers, as they have been moeved to the new south end, and the middle of the east side.  All in all, the building has been greatly expanded, and people are calling it a new build.   No photos though.  Photos sidelined as cover up?


*Interior of Main Hall*
Then you have the whole point of the extension east and west, the upstairs gallery which backs onto the new high level window (now 1 of 2)
*


The Architect : possibly a lot of truth in this article   : St George's Hall (1841-54), Lime Street, Liverpool   *
St George's Hall (1841-54), Lime Street, Liverpool
This article talks of the possible skullduggery of the young Architect who got the commision, but is as suspected by some on here that there is a building provenance cover up, then he will just be a name to go with the 'new building'

_"In 1837 the Government had decided that both Liverpool and Manchester should have their own Assize Courts (previously all Crown Court matters had been dealt with in Lancaster) and a Liverpool Assize Courts Building Committee was formed. The two Committees, one for the Concert Hall and one for the Assize Courts, had joint discussions as early as 1837 about how the two buildings might together form part of a public forum using John Foster's neo-classical façade of Lime Street Station to form the enclosure.

A competition inviting architects to submit design proposals for the new concert hall, which the Committee had by now decided should be called St George's Hall, was announced in The Times in March 1839. Harvey Lonsdale Elmes was announced as the winner of this competition in July 1839 at the age of just 25. The façades of his winning entry bear a strong resemblance to the concert hall designed by Joseph Hansom in 1834 to be used for a Triennial Music Festival in Birmingham and known as Birmingham Town Hall. This, in turn, is said to have been inspired by the Temple of Castor and Pollux in Rome.

A competition inviting architects to submit design proposals for an Assize Court Building was announced in The Times in July 1839, the deadline for submission of entries being 1st January 1840. Elmes also entered this competition but after he had won the first one and, as was said at the time 'it is rather singular that that gent should have chosen to enter a second competition immediately after succeeding in the previous one, unless he had a particularly good reason for anticipating success'. *The Concert Hall was his first major commission and would have been a monumental undertaking on its own for such a young and relatively inexperienced architect. It was indeed strange that he should feel able to enter the competition for the Assize Courts as well unless he knew something that none of the other entrants knew!*

Suspicions might be raised further by the fact that Elmes was not announced as the winner of the second competition until 8th October 1840, 9 months after the closing date. *Further suspicions might have been justified over the next few years when Elmes went on to design houses for a number of the members of the Building Committee, including the Lord Mayor!* His winning entry for the Law Courts Building is clearly based on the Fitzwilliam Museum in Cambridge designed by George Basevi in 1835 and finished, following Basevi's accidental death, by Elmes' mentor, Charles Robert Cockerell, a close friend of Elmes' father, James. (James Elmes was also an architect who had written extensively about the buildings of nineteenth-century  London, in particular the works of Sir Christopher Wren.)

It is traditional to think that Elmes was inspired by the classical buildings of Athens and Rome but the inspiration for Elmes' competition entries was clearly neo-classical buildings, not classical buildings. *It is difficult to see how he could have been influenced by classical buildings when he never visited Greece or Italy*! Cockerell, on the other hand, had completed a 'Grand Tour' and spent several years in Greece, his travelling companion for most of the time being John Foster Junior. Foster, with his father, was responsible for the design of a number of important buildings in  nineteenth-century  Liverpool. It was no coincidence that the building contractors for many of these were also called Foster since this was the family business.

The interior of the Great Hall is considered to have been influenced by the Baths of Caracalla in Rome which may explain the sunken floor, but, again, this building had not been seen by Elmes and is, in any event, largely a disjointed ruin. However, Cockerell had produced a large painting of what he thought the interior of these baths would have looked like. Was this Elmes' inspiration? It seems very likely. 

In fact *Elmes' first entry for the Assize Court Building was so flawed in terms of its circulation, especially considering the necessity to separate the different parties involved in criminal trials, that it was passed over to Joseph Franklin, City Surveyor, for dissection and revision*. Elmes was then permitted to submit a second version well after the deadline and it was this that won him the first prize of 300 Guineas. Elmes was then asked by the Council to explore different arrangements of the two buildings in relation to the site and Lime Street Station, *it was also suggested that a new Daily Courts Building incorporating a Bridewell might be included in the development.*_


While Elmes was considering the various possibilities, *the Concert Hall Committee realised that it had not raised enough capital for the building and approached the Law Courts Committee with the suggestion that the two buildings should be combined* and the costs proportioned between them. Elmes was asked to consider the possibility of combining his two buildings into one and the various options were considered by a joint meeting of the two committees. This meeting agreed to the combining of the two buildings and it was only at that stage that Elmes began to design the building we see today. Elmes was by then 27 years old.

Eventually the Law Courts Committee agreed to undertake 'the whole outlay of the erection and future management' and all subscriptions made to the Concert Hall Committee were returned to the donors.


Original Ancient  Building, or new Azzize Law Courts . . . . . . .  new Concert Hall combined with law Courts (or Ancient Building)


*Conclusion*
If part of St Georges' Hall is truly ancient, then I believe the scenario below is somewhere near the truth.

1. Liverpool required a new Law Court, due to the expanding population, and lancaster was now unable to cope with the volume.
2. A competition was held, an a very young establishment Architect won which was based on someone else's design in Cambridge.
3. A Concert Hall was also required, and it was decide to 'join them together', and the section of new build was to be called St George's Hall
4.  A new mainline station had just been built next door, and the opportunity existed to adapt the existing ancient building to align with it.
5. The existing ancient building was expanded, with columns being moved, and the final design was 'similar' to the Cambridge design
5. Liverpool was responsible for 90% of the British Slave trade, and the city was awash with money. It was a perfect time to bury the old building.
6. The whole of the new building was just called St George's Hall, and was eventually just called a monumental Victorian Building.
7. The old sketches rather than adulterated photos hint at the new construction.
8. Cockerell was really the architect, he had worked on Wren's buildings, had done the grand tour, and was happier working 'under cover'.  ie no association with similar happenings in London.

*A number of Questions*
A. Where did the original Corinthian/ round Columns come from, elsewhere or were they originally built at that site?
B. If elsewhere, where would they have come from?  Fishbourne ie the largest Roman Domestic dwelling in Northern Europe or or elsewhere?
C. Is this a Roman structure, or from a later time?
D. Who pinched the frieze?
E. Are there any construction sketches anywhere to be seen?
F. Is there anywhere in the UK where two buildings have been combined like this ie  new/ new  or new/ ancient?
G. How many ancient building are there in London or esewhere in the UK?


*Links*
St Georges Hall, Liverpool Great 'Timeline' of photos/ sketches
Hall of fame – Liverpool’s St George’s Hall
Harvey Lonsdale Elmes (1813-47)
St George’s Hall Missing Pediment Sculpture – Independent Liverpool
St George's Hall (1841-54), Lime Street, Liverpool
The Temporary Houses of Parliament and David Boswell Reid’s Architecture of Experimentation | Architectural History | Cambridge Core


----------



## Fenderbass1 (Jan 6, 2023)

Archive said:


> Banta said:
> 
> 
> > View attachment 33380
> ...


That was full of great info. Must admit my heads spinning. I'm going read it again. Left me thinking St Georges Hall has been there much longer than people think and has been used for many things. It was just done up by people who wanted to bury its history.  I don't think its ever been a concert hall or a court.


----------

