# The Travels of Sir John Mandeville - The Old World & Tartaria



## NPC#0 (Mar 3, 2022)

*The Travels of Sir John Mandeville?*
A collection of folklore and old tales, compiled in an engaging linear format, to form this book, known by some as "The Medieval Odyssey"
Its the only book alongside Marco Polo, which covers Tartaria.
This book consists of 393 (short) pages excluding the index, and I will highlight what I think are the most important parts, and skip the fluff.
I consider it important, as it shows a very different kind of world. Yet, accurate to the medieval-culture perception.
Obviously, there is much corruption, no free energy or anything, but there are some really really insane things remaining.

I will cover the most important parts of this book, linearly from start to end. I will also cover some illustrations of Arthur Layard in the 1895 edition, though I apologize for the image quality.

The only things you need to know is that it was "*originally written in 1357*" (lol ok) and that it is the story of a christian knight travelling to jerusalem, then to the east and beyond.

*Preface*


> "... close on a hundred different printed editions and versions in English, French, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Walloon, German, Bohemian, Danish, and even in Irish; and as for the different MS. versions there are said to be over three hundred known. No book of any respectable age, except the Bible, and possibly Tyll Owlglass, has been so often copied or printed."


Yeah, unlikely statements like this will be frequent. Some future ones may be true. I will provide biased commentary but make your own mind on this, my goal is to provide the best parts.

*Medieval Tower Antenna*




The tower seems to have an obvious antenna, and even the bird pattern is interesting.

*Travelling to Jerusalem*
(page 41)


> And whoso will go long time on the Sea, and come nearer to Jerusalem, he shall go by Sea to the port Jaffa. For that is the next Haven to Jerusalem; for from that Haven is not but one Day's Journey and an half to Jerusalem. And the Town is called Jaffa; for one of the Sons of Noah named Japhet founded it, and now it is called Joppa. And ye shall understand, that it is one of the oldest Towns of the World, for it was founded before Noah's Flood. And even yet the Rock showeth there, how the Iron Chains were fastened, *that Andromeda, a great Giant was bounden with*, and put in Prison before Noah's Flood. And there be Bones of the Giant's Side 40 Foot long.*
> 
> *A queer subversion of the old legend.


The myth is interesting, even though the book itself says it is corrupted with that asterisk note.
Bones 40 foot though...
Also not just any giant, but Andromeda from Ancient Greek Titan mythology? Down in the heart of Canaan?!

Page 46 to 48 is the timeline/dynasty/chronology of the egyptian sultans.
It is not worth to paste 3 pages of text, but I will mention something interesting on page 48.


> And after, one that was called Guytoga took him and put him in Prison in the Castle of Mount-royal and made himself Sultan by Strength, and called himself Melechadel; and *he was of Tartary*. But the Comanians chased him out of the Country, and did him much Sorrow, and made one of themselves Sultan, that...



(page 52)


> And from Babylon where the Sultan dwelleth, to go right between the Orient (East) and the Septentrion (North) toward the great Babylon, is a 40 Days' Journey to pass by Desert. But the great Babylon is not in the Land and in the Power of the said Sultan, but is in the Power and the Lordship of Persia, and is held of the great Chan, that is the greatest Emperor and the most Sovereign Lord of the Parts beyond, *and is the Lord of the Isles of Cathay and of many other Isles and of a great Part of Ind*, and his Land marcheth with Prester John's Land, and he holdeth so much Land, that he knoweth not the End : and he is much more mighty and a greater Lord without Comparison than is the Sultan : of his royal Estate and of his Might I shall speak more fully when I shall speak of the Land and of the Country of Ind


Babylon in short is said to be north-east of the Sultan's border, ruled by the tartars. "Isles of Cathay" is the most interesting in the above, as it includes Japan. The author either was oblivious to geography or claimed the tartarian emperor to have all isles east and north.

*The Terrestial Paradise*
(page 54)


> That River of Nile, all the Year, when the Sun entereth into the Sign of Cancer, beginneth to wax, and it waxeth always, as long as the Sun is in Cancer and in the Sign of the Lion; and it waxeth in such Manner, that it is sometimes so great, that it is 20 cubits or more of Deepness, and then it doth great Harm to the Goods that be upon the Land. For then may no Man travail to plough the Lands for the great Moisture, and therefore is there dear Time in that Country. And also, when it waxeth but little, it is dear Time in that Country, for Default of Moisture. And when the Sun is in the Sign of Virgo, then beginneth the River to wane and to decrease little by little, so that when the Sun is entered into the Sign of Libra, then Men enter between these rivers that are made. *This River cometh, running from Terrestial Paradise, between the Deserts of Ind, and after it smiteth into the Land, and runneth long time through many great Countries under Earth.* And after it goeth out under an high Hill, that Men call Alothe, that is between Ind and Ethiopia the distance of 5 Months' Journeys from the Entry of Ethiopia; and after it environeth all Ethiopia and Mauritania, and goeth all along from the Land of Egypt unto the City of Alexandria to the End of Egypt, and there it falleth into the Sea.


This is the first thing that stunned me. Google maps contrast what is said above. That the Nile's source originates from "Terrestial Paradise" (detailed later), and it goes underground at some point instead of surface linearly. But reaching near the Ind? The Ind borders to the west must be with Arabia/Chaldeans/Tartarians/Egypt.
I do not know if he meant geographical location, but this is a good time to explain "Terrestial Paradise".

All 4 rivers are claimed to originate from here. A pulsing heart of sorts, so all rivers connect together by it. Later it is claimed that no one can approach it, as the tide and pressure destroys all ships (see finale)
If I had to place it somewhere given the total information in the book, it would be somewhere in the indian ocean. And the only way it makes sense, is if the poles had shifted...
Pretty extreme I have to admit. But the author indirectly reinforces this thought by explaining compasses and lodestones. Yet, like many ancient maps, I am sure there is some form of anachronism.
"The Terrestial Paradise" could exist (weird to see it referenced only in this book) especially given it matches the 4 corners of the earth, but personally I do not think so. But the hinting at pole shifting? I feel that is right.

*The Granaries of Joseph*
(page 65)


> And now I shall speak of another Thing that is beyond Babylon, above the Flood of the Nile, toward the Desert between Africa and Egypt; that is to say, of the Granaries of Joseph, that he had made, to keep the Grains for the Peril of the dear Years. And they be made of Stone, full well made of Masons' Craft; of the which 2 be marvellously great and high, and the tothers be not so great. And every Granary had a Gate to enter within, a little high from the Earth; for the Land is wasted and fallen since the Granaries were made. And within the be all full of Serpents. And above the Granaries without be many Scriptures of diverse Languages. And some Men say, that they be Sepultures of great Lords, that were sometime, but that is not true, for all the common Rumour and Speech of all the People there, both far and near, is that they be the Granaries of Joseph; and so find they in their Scriptures, and in their Chronicles. On the other Hand, if they were Sepultures, they would not be void within; for ye may well know, that Tombs and Sepultures be neither made of such Greatness, nor of such Higness; wherefore it is not to be believed, that they be Tombs or Sepultures.


Sounds like it was mainstream back in the day to establish that these were the granaries of joseph, but I don't think Sir John Mandeville can convince many these were merely granaries.
Note that these granaries are pyramids
They did use pyramid buildings as granaries in some places, hence it was easy to label tons of egyptian pyramids as being constructed for granaries.
Anyway, to list the interesting parts:

Multiple pyramids engraved with diverse languages on them (probably full of hieroglyphs)
Claimed to have once hosted "great lords" (probably giants), supported by the next argument:
"And every Granary had a Gate to enter within, a little high from the Earth" could mean giant-sized, or alternatively "of little height" (reminder this is old english) means mudflood. They definitely weren't normal-sized. If they were, he wouldn't mention the gate height.
They used to have local chronicles, so each nation had their own chronology (contrast to today)

*Freemason Math*
(page 95)


> And ye shall understand that when our Lord was put upon the Cross, He was 33 Year and 3 Months old. And the Prophecy of David saith thus: "Quadraginta Annis proximus fui Generationi huic;" that is to say "Forty Year was I Neighbour to this Kindred."
> And thus should it seem that the Prophecies were not true. But they be both true; for in old Time Men made a Year of 10 months, of the which March was the first and December was the last. But Gaius, that was Emperor of Rome, put these 2 Months thereto, January and February, and ordained the Year of 12 Months; that is to say 365 Days, without Leap Year, after the proper Course of the Sun. And therefore, after counting 10 Months to the Year, he died in the 40th Year, as the Prophet said. And after the Year of 12 Months, he was of Age 33 Year and 3 Months.


The mental gymnastics to connect 2 narratives is hilarious. Literally a retcon.
As for the symbology, freemasonic influence is obvious. I do not think they were corrupted back then, but that's off-topic.

*Energy Sword*



Does this sword look like it was designed to cut?
It has no edge at its tip, nor its sides. That bulky part attached to the guard makes it crystal-clear it's not a sword as it could even house an item or liquid.
It is some kind of rod. Almost reminds me of an antenna. The man wielding it does not look like he could defeat even 1 unarmored savage warrior.


*Chaldeans alongside Tartarians*
(page 147)


> And thither come Merchants with Merchandise by Sea from India, Persia, Chaldea, Armenia, and from many other Kingdoms.


There is some confusion on the Chaldeans on the internet. I quote the above to confirm they existed alongside Tartarians, and were not the same.

*Medieval Tower Antenna (again)*

*

*
Even electrical wires I could claim, as they are neatly decorated to be a festive part of the enviroment, but I doubt this is true.

*Tartarian Diet*
(page 154+155)


> This Tartary is held of the great Chan, of whom I shall speak more afterward, for thither lasteth his Lordship. And the Lords of Tartary yield unto the great Chan Tribute. This is a full ill Land and a sandy, and bearing but little Fruit. For there grows little good of Corn or Wine, neither Beans nor Peas. But Beasts be there enough, and that full great Plenty. And there eat they nought but Flesh without Bread, and they sup the Broth thereof. And also they drink the Milk. And all Manner of wild Beasts they eat, Hounds, Cats, Rats, and all other wild beasts. And they have no Wood, or else little; and therefore they warm and seethe their Meat with Horse-dung and Cow-dung and that of other Beasts, dried against the Sun. And Princes and others eat not ut once in the Day, and that but little. And they be right foul Folk and of evil Kind.


Nothing to say here, except redirect you to Marco Polo's Travels. Tartarians fed mostly on milk and meat.

*Tartarian Disclaimer*
(page 156+157)


> *I have not been in that Country*. But I have been at other Lands that march with those Countries, and in the land of Russia, and in the Land of Nyfland (Livonia), and in the Realm of Cracow and of Letto (Lithuania), and in the Realm of Daristan, and in many other Places that march with the Borders. But I went never by that Way to Jerusalem, wherefore I may not well tell you the manner.


tl;dr of his claim is that he cannot travel through there without being spotted and killed, as they kill christians on sight.
So as you can understand most literature on them will convey them as evil as possible. And this book based on the above is not accurate.

*Mohammed*
(page 168)
Something needing no quote, yet I consider interesting is that Saracens believed in both the bible and the quran. It really opened my mind, how today's christianity is only a small branch which is normalized as the default.


> And at the Desert of Arabia, Mohammed went into a Chapel where a Hermit dwelt. And when he entered into the Chapel that was but a little and low Thing and had but a little Door and a low, then the Entry began to wax so great, and so large and so high as though it had been of a great Minster or the Gate of a Palace. And this was the first Miracle, the Saracens say, that Mohammet did in his Youth.


Being skeptic, all I can think of this is that he found a random gigantic structure in the middle of nowhere which almost no one knew, and claimed he did it from little.
Gathering attention, of people who did not know of the existence of this structure, and how improbable it would have been for such a huge structure to be built there, they believed him...

*Terrestial Paradise*
(page 174, 175)


> Now, since I told you before of the Holy Land and of the Country about, and of many Ways to go to that Land and to the Mount Sinai, and of Babylon the Greater and the Less, and other places that I have spoken of before - now is time, if it like you, to tell you of the Borders and Isles and diverse Beasts, and of diverse Folk beyond these Borders.
> For in those Countries beyond be many diverse Countries and many great Kingdoms, *that be parted by the 4 Rivers that come from terrestial paradise*.
> For Mesopatamia and the Kingdom of Chaldea and Arabia be beween the 2 Rivers of Tigris and of Euphrates. And the Kingdom of Media and Persia be between the Rivers of Nile and of Tigris. And the Kingdom of Syria, whereof I have spoken before, and Palestine and Phoenicia be between Euphrates and the Sea Mediterranean, the which Sea endureth in Length from Morocco upon the Sea of Spain unto the great Sea, so that it lasteth beyond Constantinople 3040 Lombardy Miles. And toward the Sea Ocean is the Kingdom of Scythia that is all closed with Hills. And after, under Scythia, and from the Sea of Caspian unto the River Thainy, is Amazonia, that is the Land of Females, where that no Man is, but only all Women. And after is Albania, a full great Realm; and it is called Albania, because the Folk be whiter there than in any other Borders thereabout : and in that Country be so great Hounds and so strong, that they assail Lions and slay them. And then after is Hircania, Bactria, Hiberia, and many other Kingdoms.


Towards the end, obvious mythological elements are introduced to spice up the narration.
Now let us go back to terrestial paradise. Assume this place is real. It cannot fuel these 4 rivers if it was in the north pole. But indian ocean fits.
Its a very very interesting information dump, as it can so easily be confirmed to be wrong with today's maps, which makes you think.
Look at the following:

(page 179)


> And therefore whoso will go the right way, Men go from Trebizond toward Armenia the Great unto a City that is called Erzeroum, that was wont to be a good Cit and a plenteous; but the Turks have greatly wasted it. There-about gorweth no Wine nor Fruit, or else little or none. In this Land is the Earth more high than in any other, and that maketh great Cold.
> *And there be many good Waters and good Wells that come under Earth from the River of Paradise, that is called Euphrates, that is a Day's Journey from that City. And that River cometh towards Ind under Earth, and cometh out into the Land of Altazar*. And so pass Men by this Armenia and enter the Sea of Persia


River Euphrates coming underground from Terrestial Paradise?...
I wish I had a reliable map to destroy this insane claim, yet there is none, it could be real. Or even worse, it could have been real in the previous age.

*Fountain of Youth*
(page 207)


> And at the Foot of the Mount Polombe is a fair Well and a great, that has Odour and Savour of all Spices. And at every Hour of the Day he changeth his Odour and his Savour diversely. And whoso drinketh 3 Times fasting of that Water of that Well he is whole of all Manner of Sickness that he hath. And they that dwell there and drink often of that Well they never have Sickness; and they seem always young. I have drunken thereof 3 or 4 Times, and, methinketh, I fare the better yet. Some Men call it the "Well of Youth" For they that often drink thereof seem always young-like and live without Sickness. And Men say that that Well cometh out of Paradise, and therefore it is so virtuous.


Obvious spreading of the infamous fountain of youth.
It could be just a fountain with good marketing.
But regardless of all that, its not impossible it originated from an underwater river, perhaps that of the mysterious terrestial paradise.

Slightly related to the location of this river, on the same page, the worshipping of the ox is mentioned, a practice which interestingly is preserved up to today in that same area.

*Corrupted Buddha?*
(page 213)


> Also the Church, where Saint Thomas lieth, is both great and fair, and all full of great Simulacres, and those be great Images that they call their Gods, of the which the least is as great as 2 Men.
> And amongst these, there is an Image more great than any of the other, that is all covered with fine gold and precious Stones and rich Pearls; and that Idol is the God of false Christians that have denied their Faith. And it sitteth in a Chair of Gold, full nobly arrayed, and he hath about his Neck large Girdles wrought of Gold and precious Stones and Pearls. And this Church is full richly wrought and, all over, gilt within. And to that Idol go Men on Pilgrimage, as commonly and with as great Devotion as Christian Men go to Saint James, or no other holy Pilgrimages. And many Folk that come from far Lands to seek that Idol for the great Devotion that they have, they look never upward, but evermore down to the Earth, for Dread to see anything about them that should hinder them of their Devotion. And some there be that go on Pilgrimage to this Idol, that bear Knives in their Hands, that be made full keen and sharp; and always, as they go, they smite themselves in their Arms and in their Legs and in their Thighs with many hideous Wounds; and so they shed their Blood for Love of that Idol. And they say, that he is blessed and holy, that dieth so for Love of his God. And other there be that lead their Children to slay, to make Sacrifice to that Idol; and after they have slain them they sprinkle the Blood upon the Idol. And some there be that come from far; and in going toward this Idol, at every 3rd Pace that they go from their House, they kneel; and so continue, till they come thither : and when they come there, they take Incense and other aromatic Things of noble Smell, and perfume the Idol, as we would do here God's precious Body. And so come Folk to worship this Idol, some from an 100 Mile, and some from many more.


Great golden idol sitting reminds me of Buddha, but obviously in the above they did corrupt it and performed blood sacrifices.
But surely in the past, many cities had such barbarism. So why did I mention this as important? Because of the art and notation, "mabaron" on any search engine gives 0 results...

Up to page 217, there is plenty of detailing on human sacrifice, unrelated to the above Idol.

*Manufacturing History is Normalized*
(page 216)


> *And as Men here devoutly would write holy Saints' Lives and their Miracles, and make Suit to have them canonised*, right so do they there for them that slay themselves willfully for Love of their Idol, and say that they be glorious Martyrs and Saints, and put them in their Writings and in their Litanies, and vaunt them greatly, one to another, of their holy Kinsmen that so become Saints, and say "I have more holy Saints in my Kindred, than thou in thine!"


Literally manufacturing history, making fiction into reality by church approval.

*Utopia - Good*
(page 218-219)
The land of Lamary is of seriously questionable historical validity, yet I consider it important to mention.
Lamary is 52 days away into the Ocean from the previous land of people who blood sacrifice. Perhaps its mythological, but I will synopsize it anyway.
They have hot temperatures, everyone is naked. Women cannot deny the sexual advances of Men, otherwise they "sin", and raise children with whoever they are with. Land is also common.
I think the above is mythological as proto-christians always mentioned living on common property.

*Utopia - Bad*
(page 220)


> But in Lamary there is a cursed Custom, for they eat more gladly Man's Flesh than any other Flesh; and yet is that Country abundant of Flesh, of Fish, of Corn, of Gold and Silver, and of all other Goods. Thither go Merchants and bring with them Children to sell to them of the Country, and they buy them. And if they be fat they eat them anon. And if they be lean they feed them till they be fat, and then they eat them. And they say, that it is the best Flesh and the sweetest of all the World.


They knew about this practice from back then, vilified it and warned against it.

*Flat Earth - Detailed Astronomy*
(page 220-222)


> In that Land, and in many other beyond that, no Man may see the Star Transmontane (or Polar Star) that is called the Star of the Sea, that is unmovable and that is toward the North, that we call the Lode-star. But Men see another Star, the contrary (or opposite) to it, that is toward the South, that is called Antarctic. And right as the Ship-men here take their Advice and govern them by the Lode-star, right so do Ship-men beyond these Parts govern them by the Star of the South, the which Star appeareth not to us. And this Star that is toward the North, that we call the Lode-star, appeareth not to us. And this Star that is toward the North, that we call the Lode-star, appeareth not to them. For which Cause Men may well perceive, that the Land and the Sea be of round Shape and Form; for the Part of the Firmament showeth in one Country that sheweth not in another Country. And men may well prove by Experience and subtle Compassing of Wit, that if a Man found Passages by Ships that would go to search the World, he might go by Ship all about the World and above and beneath.
> The which Thing I prove thus after what I have seen. For I have been toward the Parts of Brabant, and beheld by the Astrolabe that the Star that is called the Transmontane is 53 Degrees high; and more further in Germany and Bohemia, it hath 58 Degrees; and more further toward the Septentrional (or Northern) Parts it is 62 Degrees of Height and certain Minutes; for I myself have measured it by the Astrolabe. Now shall ye know, that over against the Transmontane is the tother Star that is called Antarctic, as I have said before. And those 2 Stars move never, and on them turneth all the Firmament right as doth a Wheel that turneth on his Axle-tree. So that those Stars bear the Firmament in 2 equal Parts, so that it hath as much above as it hath beneath. After this, I have gone toward the Meridional Parts, that is, toward the South, and I have found that in Lybia, Men see first the Star Antarctic. And so the more further I have gone in those Countries, the more high I have found that Star; so that toward the High Lybia it is 18 Degrees of Height and certain Minutes (of the which 60 Minutes make a Degree)
> After going by Sea and by Land toward this Country of which I have spoken, and to other Isles and Lands beyond that Country, I have found the Star Antarctic 33 Degrees of Height and some Minutes. And if I had had Company and Shipping to go more beyond, I trow well, as certain, that we should have seen all the Roundness of the Firmament all about. For, as I have said to you before, the Half of the Firmament is between those 2 Stars, the which Half-part I have seen. And of the tother Half-part I have seen, toward the North under the Transmontane, 62 Degrees and 10 Minutes, and toward the Meridional Part I have seen under the Antarctic, 33 Degrees and 16 Minutes. And then, the Half-part of the Firmament holdeth in all but 180 Degrees. And of those 180, I have seen 62 on that one Part and 33 on that other Part; in all, 95 Degrees and nigh the Half-part of a Degree. And so, there faileth not but that I have seen all the Firmament, save 84 Degrees and the Half-part of a Degree, and that is not the 4th Part of the Firmament; for the 4th Part of the Roundness of the Firmament holds 90 Degrees, so there faileth but 5 Degrees and an Half of the 4th Part. And so I have seen 3 Parts of all the Roundness of the Firmament and more yet by 5 Degrees and a Half.


The above is a full explanation of an astrological model. There is much to analyze here, I do not think I am worthy of this. However!
*The 2 stars above disprove the Heliocentric model where the earth like a sphere flies in the void with ~1700 km/h... Why? Because if Earth moved like that in a unique trajectory, the 2 stars could never be on north and south pole (nor could any constellations be static!)*
Anyway, I hope the data/degrees he provides help someone. I want to also mention what he says rightafter, which confirms an underground earth of sorts (which is hinted heavily at earlier parts which I didn't mention)


> By the which I say to you certainly that Men may environ all the Earth of all the World, *as well underneath as above*, and return again to their Country, if tha they had Company and Shipping and Conduct. And always they should find Men, Lands and Isles, as well as in this Country. For wit ye well, that they that be toward the Antarctic be straight, Feet against Feet, *to them that dwell under the Transmontane*; as well as we *and they that dwell under us* be Feet against Feet. For all the Parts of Sea and of Land have their Opposites, habitable or passable, and also they of this Half and the beyond Half.


Hollow Earth confirmed (but you don't need this if you have read other ancient works)

*Zodiac Firmament*
(page 228)


> The Firmament is divided by Astronomers into 12 signs, and every Sign is divided into 30 Degrees; that is, 360 Degrees that the Firmament hath above



*Troglodytes*
(page 240)


> And from that Isle Men go by Sea, from Isle to Isle, unto an Isle that is called Tracoda, where the Folk of that Country be as Beasts, and unreasonable, and dwell in Caves that they make in the Earth; for they have no Wit to make them Houses. And when they see any Man passing through their Countries they hide them in their Caves. And they eat Flesh of Serpents, and they eat but little. And they speak Nought, but they hiss as Serpents do. And they set no Price on any Riches, but only on a precious Stone that is amongst them, that is of 60 Colours. And from the Name of the Isle, they call it Tracodon.



*Cynocephali*
(page 243)


> After that Isle, Men go by the Sea Ocean, by many Isles, unto an Isle that is called Nacumera, that is a great Isle and good and fair. And it is in Compass about, more than a 1000 Mile. And all the Men and Women of that Isle have Hounds' Heads, and they be called Cunocephali.
> And they be full reasonable and of good Understanding, save that they worship an Ox for their God. And also *every one of them beareth an Ox of Gold or of Silver in his Forehead*, in Token that they love well their God. And they go all naked save a little Clout, that they cover them with to their Knees. They be great Folk and well-fighting. And they have a great Targe that covereth all the Body, and a Spear in their Hand to fight with. And if they take any Man in Battle, anon they eat him.


The more this book goes, the more mythological elements are introduced. Up to reaching Jerusalem there are almost none, but the further it goes the harder it gets to believe.
However, it doesn't sound impossible that a race of dog-human hybrids existed, given how much genetical manipulation has happened in the past with human hybrids. *Too many* ancient references of dog-headed humanoids to say with any confidence they did not exist.

*Man's Bloodline*
(page 273, 274, 275)


> Ye shall understand that all the World was destroyed by Noah's Flood, save only Noah and his Children. Noah had 3 Sons: Shem, Cham (Ham), and Japhet.
> This Cham was he that saw his Father's Nakedness when he slept, and scorned him, and shewed him with his Finger to his Brethren in scorning Wise. And therefore he was cursed of God. And Japhet turned his Face away and covered him.
> These 3 Brethren seized all the Land. And this Cham, for his Cruelty, took the greater and the best Part, toward the East, that is called Asia, and Shem took Africa, and Japhet took Europe. And therefore is all the Earth parted in these 3 Parts by these 3 Brethren. Cham was the greatest and the most mighty, and of him came more Generations than of the others. *And of his Son Cush was engendered Nimrod the Giant, that was the first King that ever was in the World; and he began the Foundation of the Tower of Babylon. And that Time, the Fiends of Hell came many Times and lay with the Women of his Generation and engendered on them diverse Folk, as Monsters and Folk disfigured, some without Heads, some with great Ears, some with one Eye, some Giants, some with Horses' Feet, and many other diverse Shapes against Nature. And of that Generation of Cham come the Paynims and diverse Folk that be in Isles of the Sea by all Ind.
> And forasmuch as he was the most mighty, and no Man might withstand him, he called himself the Son of God and Sovereign of all the World.* And from this Cham, this Emperor calleth himself "Cham" and Sovereign of all the World.
> And of the Generation of Shem be come the Saracens. And of the Generation of Japhet is come the People of Israel, and we that dwell in Europe. This is the Opinion, that the Syrians and the Samaritans have amongst them. And that they told me, before that I went toward Ind, but I found it otherwise. Nevertheless, the truth is this; that the Tartars and they that dwell in the great Asia, they came of Cham; but the Emperor of Cathay calleth himself not "Cham" but "Chan" and I shall tell you how


Very interesting bloodline tree.
As for the continuation of where I stopped the quotation, its the story of the rising of Genghis khan, which does match that of Marco Polo's.
Later in page 280, 281 it mentions the conquest of Cathay by Genghis Khan.
Honestly, there is too much to quote. If you want to learn more about Tartaria, read Marco Polo's travels to Tartaria, or read this book and ctrl+f Tartar/Khan/Chan.
I will however expand a bit more on Tartaria.

*Tartaria vs Prussia&Russia*
(page 282)


> And then after him reigned Oktai Chan, his eldest Son. *And his other Brethren went to win them many Countries and Kingdoms, unto the Land of Prussia and of Russia*, and made themselves to be called Chans; but they were all obeissant to their elder Brother, and therefore hew as called the great Chan.
> After Oktai reigned Gaiouk Chan. And after him, Mango Chan that was a good Christian Man and baptized, and gave Letters of perpetual Peace to all Christian Men, and sent his Brother Halaon with great Multitude of Folk to win the Holy Land and to put it into Christian Mens' Hands, and to destroy Mohammet's Law, and to take the Caliph of Bagdad that was Emperor and Lord of all the Saracens.
> And when this Caliph was taken...
> And then after this, Halaon won all the Land of Promise, and put it into Christian Men's Hands. But the great Chan, his Brother, died; and that was great Sorrow and Loss to all Christian Men. After Mango Chan reigned Houlagou Chan that was also a Christian Man. And he reigned 42 Year. He founded the great City Izonge in Cathay, that is a great deal larger than Rome.


"founded" yeah sure, sounds like Saint Petersburg.
Anyway, the story above is interesting because it conflicts Marco Polo's. There it was claimed that Tartarians attacked/razed islamic cities because of a serious diplomatic failure (tl;dr: ambassador was publicly executed), and the same happened with russians.

Regardless, what happened ultimately is Russia got razed, Tartarians slowly became corrupted (gradually, many mass-converted to Islam and abandoned the nomad lifestyle), and Napoleon and europe together fought against Tartaria and purged them. Resulting in most of Tartaria's Land being gifted to Russia (except china/cathay?)

*The Tartarian Royal Court*
(page 290)


> And at one Side of the Emperor's Table sit many Philosophers that be proved for wise Men in many diverse Sciences, as of Astronomy, Necromancy, Geomancy, Pyromancy, Hydromancy, of Augury and of many other Sciences.


Being conditioned by RPGs I was laughing as I read this. Sounds like max level wizards forming a school of magic!
But in the old english, linquistically it makes sense. A hydromancer is an engineering expert of water pipes and pressures.
Pyromancer probably with ignition and metalworks. Necromancer is literally a morgue/doctor. Geomancer something akin of geologist.

*Fiat Currency Abuse*
(page 295)


> This Emperor may spend as much as he will without Estimation; for he spendeth and maketh no Money but of imprinted Leather or of Paper. And of that Money some is of greater Price and some of less Price, after the Diversity of his Statutes. And when that Money hath run so long that it beginneth to waste, then Men bear it to the Emperor's Treasury and then they take new Money for the old. And that Money goeth throughout all his Provinces, for there and beyond them they make no Money either of Gold or of Silver; and therefore he may spend enough, and outrageously. And of Gold and Silver that Men have in his Country he maketh Colours, Pillars and Pavements in his Palace, and other diverse Things what he liketh.



*Terrestial Paradise Reference*
(page 297)


> Else, he rides in a Chariot with 4 Wheels, upon the which is made a fair Chamber, and it is made of a certain Wood, that cometh out of Terrestial Paradise, that Men call Lignum Aloes, that the Rivers of Paradise bring out at diverse Seasons, as I have told you here before.


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## Jd755 (Mar 3, 2022)

Search results for query: Sir john mandeville

Have a look see for yourself.


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## NPC#0 (Mar 3, 2022)

*Tartarian Sins*
(page 306)


> And they have great Conscience and hold it for a great Sin to cast a Knife in the Fire, and to draw Flesh out of a Pot with a Knife, and to smite an Horse with the Handle of a Whip, or to smite an Horse with a Bridle, or to break one Bone with another, or to cast Milk or any Liquor that Men may drink upon the Earth, or to take and slay little Children. And the most great Sin that any Man may do is to defile their own Houses that they dwell in, and whoso that may be found with that Sin surely they slay him...
> And also if any Man or Woman be taken in Adultery or Fornication, anon they slay him.


Reminder that they practiced Polygamy.


*Tartarian Phenotype*
(page 310)


> And all the Tartars have small Eyes and little of Beard, and be not thick haired but shaved.



*Gog&Magog*
(page 315)


> And between that River and the great Sea Ocean, that they call the Sea Maure, lie all these Realms. And toward the Head, beneath in that Realm is the Mount Chotaz, that is the highest Mount of the World, and it is between the Sea Maure and the Sea Caspian. There is a full strait and a dangerous Passage to go toward Ind. And therefore King Alexander made there a strong City, that Men call Alexandria, to guard the Country that no Man should pass without his Leave. And now men call that City, the Gate of Hell.


I would like to redirect you here

*Tartarian Borders to Russia&Prussia*
(page 316)


> And ye shall understand, that all these Kingdoms and all these Lands above-said unto Prussia and to Russia be all obeissant to the great Chan of Cathay, and many other Countries that march with other Borders. Wherefore his Power and his Lordship is full great and full mighty.



*Land of Darkness*
(page 321)


> In that Kingdom of Abchaz is a great Marvel. For a Province of the Country that has well in Circuit 3 Days' Journeys that men call Hanyson, is all covered with Darkness, without any Brightness or Light; so that no Man may see there, nor no Man dare enter into him. And, nevertheless, they of the Country say, that sometimes Men hear Voices of Folk, and Horses neighing and Cocks crowing. And men wit well, that Men dwell there, but they know not what Men.


Abchaz is bordering with Georgia (Georgia was at the time subservient to Tartarians)
As for the explanation of why its darkness, I omitted it because it is of course credited to some overcomplex christian miracle -_-
Anyway, let me put the only other interesting continuation of this:


> Also ye shall understand that out of that Land of Darkness goeth out a great River that sheweth well that there be Folk dwelling there by many ready Tokens; but no Man dare enter into it.


I have no idea how this darkness phenomenon could be a thing. This isn't hyperborea or deep inside the earth. Likely fake but it was worth mentioning.

*Gog&Magog*
(page 327)


> In that same Region be the Mountains of Caspian that Men call Uber in the Country. Between those Mountains the Jews of 10 Lineages be enclosed, that Men call Gog and Magog, and they may not go out on any side. There were enclosed 22 Kings with their People, that dwelled between the Mountais of Scythia. There King Alexander chased them between those Mountains, and there he thought to enclose them through Work of his Men. But when he saw that he might not do it nor bring it to an End, he prayed to the God of Nature that He would perform that he had begun. And albeit so, that he was a Paynim and not worthy to be heard, yet God of His Grace closed the Mountains together, so that they dwell there all fast locked and enclosed with high mountains is all about, save only on one Side, and on that Side is the Sea of Caspian.


Again, I would like to redirect you here
Though that mention of jews is interesting. Reminds me of Ashkenazi origins in Khazaria. Also the narration of that part is so weird. "God of Nature"? Paynim Alexander? Narrated by a Christian?

*Gog&Magog Apocalypse*
(page 330)


> And that strait Passage Men, in that Country, call Clyron. And that is the Passage that the Queen of Amazonia maketh to be kept. And though it happen taht some of them by Fortune go out, they know no Manner of Language but Hebrew, so that they cannot speak to the People.
> And yet, nevertheless, Men say that they shall go out in the Time of Anti-Christ, and that they shall make great Slaughter of Christian Men. And therefore all the Jews that dwell in all Lands learn always to speak Hebrew, in Hope, that when other Jews shall go out, that they may understand their Speech and lead them into Christendom to destroy the Christian People. For the Jews say that they know well by their Prophecies, that they of Caspia shall go out, and spread throughout all the World, and that the Christian Men shall be under their Subjection, as long they have been in Subjection to them.


For both christians and muslims to have this gog&magog "apocalypse" prophecy, they must have known that a horrible yet deadly kind of people were enclosed inside these mountains, and whenever they were to leave, the world would suffer.
Having been so long until then, I am certain they must have left already, hence... If their conquest was "silent" then I think the above ended up being accurate...

*Griffin Detailed*
(Page 333)


> In that country be many Griffins, more Plenty than in any other Country. Some Men say that they have the Body upward as an Eagle and beneath as a Lion; and truly they say Truth, that they be of that Shape. But one Griffin has the body more great and is more strong than 8 Lions, of such Lions as be on this Side, and more great and stronger than an 100 Eagles such as we have amongst us. For one Griffin there will bear, flying to his Nest, a great Horse if he may find him at the Place, or 2 Oxen yoked together as they go to the Plough. For he has Talons so long and so lare and so great upon his Feet, as though they were Horns of great Oxen or of Buffaloes or of Kine, that Men make Cups of them to drink of. And of their Ribs and of the Feathers of their Wings, Men make Bows full strong, to shoot Arrows and Bolts with.



*Degenerated Human Hybrids*
(page 341)


> In that Desert be many Wild Men, that be hideous to look on; for they be horned, and they speak nought, but they grunt, as Pigs.



*Giants Eating Humans*
(page 354)


> After this, beyond the Vale, is a great Isle, where the Folk be great Giants of 28 Foot long, or of 30 Foot long.
> And they have no Clothing but of Skins of Beasts that they hang upon them. And they eat no Bread, but all raw Flesh; and they drink Milk of Beasts, for they have Plenty of all Cattle. And they have no Houses to lie in. And they eat more gladly Man's Flesh than any other Flesh. Into that Isle dare no Man gladly enter. And if they see a Ship and Men therein, anon they enter into the Sea to take them.
> And Men said to us, that in an Isle beyond that were Giants of greater Stature, some of 45 Foot, or 50 Foot long, and, as some Men say, of 50 Cubits long. But I saw none of those, for I had no Lust to go to those Parts, because that no Man cometh neither into that Isle nor into the other, but he be devoured anon. And among those Giants be Sheep as great as Oxen here, and they bear great Wool and rough. Of the Sheep I have seen many times. And Men have seen, many times, those Giants take Men in the Sea out of their Ships, and bring them to Land, 2 in one Hand and 2 in another, eating them going, all raw and all alive.
> Another Isle is there toward the North, in the Sea Ocean, where that be full cruel and evil Women of Nature. And they have precious Stones in their Eyes. And they be of that Nature, that if they behold any Man with Wrath, they slay him anon with the Beholding, as doth the Basilisk.


The similarities with Ancient Greek Mythology are striking (Odyssey for man-eating giants, and medusa ofc)
As I mentioned before, this book gradually adds mythological spicy elements to make it more engaging. But some elements could be real.
For example, pygmies are mentioned, so are giants. So even if someone was completely bluepilled he would be conflicted, as this is what mainstream news do anyway. Report accurate truth on minor news no one cares about, build up validity, then make up big news.
As for the sizes of giants, here are 2 sketchy pictures on giant height, unrelated to this book of course


*Hello, Chronology Department?*
(page 368)


> And therefore say I of this Folk, that be so true and so faithful, that God loveth them. For He hath amongst them many of the Prophets, and always has had. And in those Isles, they prophesied the Incarnation of our Lord Jesu Christ, how he should be born of a Maiden, 3000 Year or more ere our Lord was born of the Virgin Mary. And they believe well in the Incarnation, and that full perfectly, but they know not the Manner, how He suffered His Passion and Death for us.


That folk surely existed 3000 years ago, and prophesied Jesus' Christ Birth. Ok I believe you.
Sidenote to this, this is easily how they used to get authority/validity for their claims. Get to say that someone distant endorces/likes your claim. No one can go there and ask them to confirm, so you can link any claim to a distant group.

*Twin World Trees*
(page 369)


> And from that River a 15 Days' Journey in Length, going by the Deserts of the tother Side of the River, whoso might go for it - for I was not there but it was told us by them of the Country - that within those Deserts were the Trees of the Sun and of the Moon, that spake to King Alexander, and warned him of his Death. And Men say that the Folk that keep those Trees, and eat of the Fruit and of the Balm that groweth there, live well over 400 Year or 500 Year, by Virtue of the Fruit and of the Balm. For Men say that Balm groweth there in great Plenty and nowhere else, save only at Babylon, as I have told you before.


Obviously distorted mythology, but something must have caused this mythological element to spread.

*Terrestial Paradise Finale*
(page 375~380)


> And beyond the Land and the Isles and the Deserts of Prester John's Lordship, in going straight toward the East, Men find nothing but Mountains and Rocks, full great. And there is the dark Region, where no Man may see, neither by Day nor by Night as they of the Country say. And that Desert and that Place of Darkness endure from this Side unto Terrestial Paradise, where that Adam, our first Father, and Eve were put, that dwelled there but little while : and that is towards the East at the Beginning of the Earth. But that is not that East that we call our East, on this Side, where the Sun riseth to us. For when the Sun is East in those Parts towards Terrestial Paradise, it is then Midnight in our Parts of this Side, for the Roundness of the Earth, of the which I have told you before. For our Lord God made the Earth all round in the mid Place of the Firmament. And there be Mountains and Hills and Valleys that be only from Noah's Flood, that wasted the soft Ground and the tender, that fell down into Valleys, and the hard Earth and the Rocks abode as Mountains, when the soft Earth and tender waxed soft through Water, and fell and became Valleys.
> Of Paradise I cannot speak properly. For I was not there. It is far beyond. And that grieveth me. And also I was not worthy. But as I have heard say of wise Men beyond, I shall tell you with good Will.
> 
> Terrestial Paradise, as wise Men say, is the highest Place of Earth, that is in all the World. And it is so high that it toucheth nigh to the Circle of the Moon, there where the Moon maketh her Turn; for she is so high that there might not come to her the Flood of Noah, that covered all the Earth of the World all about and above and beneath, save only Paradise alone. And this Paradise is enclosed all about with a Wall, and Men wit not whereof it is; for the Walls be covered all over with Moss, as it seemeth. And it seemeth not that the Wall is Stone of Nature. And that Wall stretcheth from the South to the North, and it hath but one Entry that is closed with Fire, burning; so that no Man that is mortal dare enter.
> ...


My commentary cannot cover so much of this. But excluding the height, I would amateurly place it in the Indian Ocean. But with the height? I do not know, it just sounds too insane to exist.
The main problem is similar to that of Hyperborea. If it existed, does it now?


*John Mandeville Travel Chronology*
(page 392)


> And I, John Mandeville, Knight, abovesaid, although I be unworthy, that departed from our Countries and passed the Sea, the Year of Grace 1322, that have passed many Lands and many ...


They even got a gravestone of a knight in england to have the name "John Mandeville" (though perhaps the gravestone name was final, then the book was named after him?)
Yeah, made up chronology. This character obviously does not exist. But the author has masterfully linked so many things together, putting mythological elements where there would otherwise be dullness or mediocrity, to form a great story, while learning many interesting things.
There is a constant mystery, atop of a linear progression. This book, with its archaic language, fitting illustrations, and medieval culture exposition really makes you feel like you hold a medieval manuscript, I haven't been this immersed in any other book.

I hope my sharings helped you in understanding more what the average medieval person was conditioned to think about the rest of the world, alongside medieval culture (some things mentioned were popular back then and recycled to sell more, just like today's tropes)


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## dreamtime (Mar 3, 2022)

Excellent post!



NPC#0 said:


> Travelling to Jerusalem



If I remember correctly, he said that Jerusalem was exactly at the South Pole.


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## NPC#0 (Mar 3, 2022)

> If I remember correctly, he said that Jerusalem was exactly at the South Pole.



His Jerusalem is at today's location, and treated as a holy place. On the early part of the book, there is a hyperfocus on christianity (orthodox christians, the artifacts of jesus etc etc), and the history of jerusalem (e.g. the conflicts around it and sultan's background and even detailing the saracens)
After he reaches Jerusalem through a safe and slow route, he proceeds to the east and there is little mention of christianity - in fact his commentary on the Khan seems inappropriate for a Christian Knight ("most mighty"/"World Sovereign" etc etc), but again this is because the Knight did not exist

Also as mentioned in the beginning, what he depicts is the old medieval world, not the truly old world, but I think the information he passed was worth it (there is no way it would survive to our century if it wasn't centered on christianity)
There is much interesting information I didn't mention as it wasn't as interesting as the OP (and because the size is already huge)


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## dreamtime (Mar 4, 2022)

NPC#0 said:


> His Jerusalem is at today's location, and treated as a holy place. On the early part of the book, there is a hyperfocus on christianity (orthodox christians, the artifacts of jesus etc etc), and the history of jerusalem (e.g. the conflicts around it and sultan's background and even detailing the saracens)
> After he reaches Jerusalem through a safe and slow route, he proceeds to the east and there is little mention of christianity - in fact his commentary on the Khan seems inappropriate for a Christian Knight ("most mighty"/"World Sovereign" etc etc), but again this is because the Knight did not exist
> 
> Also as mentioned in the beginning, what he depicts is the old medieval world, not the truly old world, but I think the information he passed was worth it (there is no way it would survive to our century if it wasn't centered on christianity)
> There is much interesting information I didn't mention as it wasn't as interesting as the OP (and because the size is already huge)



This is likely what I read:
​Mandeville, again, in some passages shows a correct idea of the form of the earth, and of position in latitude ascertained by observation of the pole star; he knows that there are antipodes, and that if ships were sent on voyages of discovery they might sail round the world. And he tells a curious story, which he had heard in his youth, how a worthy man did travel ever eastward until he came to his own country again (p. 183). But he repeatedly asserts the old belief that Jerusalem was in the centre of the world (79, 183), and maintains in proof of this that at the equinox a spear planted erect in Jerusalem casts no shadow at noon, which, if true, would equally consist with the sphericity of the earth, provided that the city were on the equator.​​1911 Encyclopædia Britannica/Mandeville, Jehan de - Wikisource, the free online library​​This is the Ebstorf Mappa Mundi, showing Jerusalem at the South Pole (and center of the map), drawing on Christian concepts similar to Mandeville:


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## Fortuna Fled (Mar 4, 2022)

Wonderful post! I just downloaded Sir Mandeville’s book and will start reading it right away.


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## Blackdiamond (Mar 4, 2022)

dreamtime said:


> This is likely what I read:
> ​Mandeville, again, in some passages shows a correct idea of the form of the earth, and of position in latitude ascertained by observation of the pole star; he knows that there are antipodes, and that if ships were sent on voyages of discovery they might sail round the world. And he tells a curious story, which he had heard in his youth, how a worthy man did travel ever eastward until he came to his own country again (p. 183). But he repeatedly asserts the old belief that Jerusalem was in the centre of the world (79, 183), and maintains in proof of this that at the equinox a spear planted erect in Jerusalem casts no shadow at noon, which, if true, would equally consist with the sphericity of the earth, provided that the city were on the equator.​​1911 Encyclopædia Britannica/Mandeville, Jehan de - Wikisource, the free online library​​This is the Ebstorf Mappa Mundi, showing Jerusalem at the South Pole (and center of the map), drawing on Christian concepts similar to Mandeville:
> 
> View attachment 20366​



what is the meaning of the word "salem" 
and "jeru"? 
Also, is there a connection to the up side down maps of the past and semitic map makers?


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## NPC#0 (Mar 4, 2022)

dreamtime said:
			
		

> Mandeville, again, in some passages shows a correct idea of the form of the earth, and of position in latitude ascertained by observation of the pole star; he knows that there are antipodes



Most of this is in the OP, quoted in the section
*Flat Earth - Detailed Astronomy*




			
				dreamtime said:
			
		

> and that if ships were sent on voyages of discovery they might sail round the world. And he tells a curious story, which he had heard in his youth, how a worthy man did travel ever eastward until he came to his own country again (p. 183)


As I did originally, let me quote the source
(page 224)



> And therefore hath a Thing befallen, as I have heard recounted many times when I was young, how a worthy Man departed some-time from our Countries to go search the World. And so, he passed Ind and the Isles beyond Ind, where be more than 5000 Isles. And so long he went by Sea and Land, and so environed the World by many Seasons, that he found an Isle where heheard Folk speak his own Language, calling on Oxen at the Plough, such Words as Men speak to Beasts in his own Country; whereof he had great Marvel, for he knew not how it might be. But I say, that he had gone so long by Land and by Sea, that he had environed all the Earth; and environing, that is to say, going about, he was come again unto his own Borders; and if he would have passed further, he had found his Country and Things well-known. But he turned again from thence, from whence he was come. And so he lost much painful Labour, as he himself said a great while after, when that he was come Home. For it befell after, that he went unto Norway. And there a Tempest of the Sea took him, and he arrived in an Isle. And, when he was in that Isle, he knew well that it was the Isle, where he had heard speak his own Language before and the calling of the Oxen at the Plough; and that was a possible Thing.





			
				dreamtime said:
			
		

> But he repeatedly asserts the old belief that Jerusalem was in the centre of the world (79, 183), and maintains in proof of this that at the equinox a spear planted erect in Jerusalem casts no shadow at noon, which, if true, would equally consist with the sphericity of the earth, provided that the city were on the equator.


(page 223)



> Also ye have heard me say that Jerusalem is in the Midst of the World. And that may Men prove, and shew there by a Spear, that is fixed into the Earth, that sheweth no Shadow on any Side upon the Hour of Midday, when it is Equinox. And that it should be in the Midst of the World, David witnesseth in the Psalter, where he saith "Deus operatus est Salutem in Medio Terrae" ("God working Salvation in the Midst of the Earth") They, then, that depart from the Parts of the West to go toward Jerusalem, as many Days' Journeys as they go upward to go thither, in so many Days' Journeys may they go from Jerusalem unto other Confines of the Superficiality of the Earth beyond. And when Men go beyond those Journeys toward Ind and to the foreign Isles, they are environing the Roundness of the Earth and of the Sea under our Country on this Half.


And the direct continuation is the quote on top of this post of page 224 "And therefore hath a Thing befallen..."

That said, I think the "center of the world" was used to give focus/emphasis/importance to a place. It is no wonder the mediterranean literally means "Middle of the Earth". I remember I had read somewhere that England was in the the middle of the earth lol
Anyway, Mandeville's confirming of the middle of the earth by the shadow of a spear, is not accurate because the Sun doesn't have a static trajectory. My point is any place can be assigned as "the center of the world", just like you can place Jerusalem anywhere. You must have surely seen jerusalem in many wild places (france, south africa's tip, england), before it was standardized and agreed upon.

======

Slightly off-topic on hollow earth and flat earth through his 2 stars analogy. When he says "under us", he often means those under the equator or england or some other mental line splitting the earth horizontally. I say this so I don't mislead anyone. E.g. "The lands of Prester John under us in Ind" doesn't mean Prester John had an underground kingdom.
However, his insistence of huge underground rivers and entire nations enclosed within mountains, gives more credibility to huge areas under the surface, when combined with other sources (the most recent being D.U.M.Bs aka deep underground military base which are stupidly huge and could house entire cities, or many ancient sources which could easily derail this thread)



			
				Fortuna Fled said:
			
		

> Wonderful post! I just downloaded Sir Mandeville’s book and will start reading it right away.


Be careful of modern versions, as they may have degraded the meaning here and there.
I suggest the 1895 version (which contains the immersive illustrations) as its certainly intact, and there are like only 3 words which will trouble you (clept = called, divers = diverse, anon = straightaway)
Now I hope no word will trouble you hahaha

But whichever version you pick, you cannot avoid the author constantly trying to exaggerate things and introducing mythological/fantastical elements. But many real things remain which weren't censored back in the day, like Tartarians which were considered normal to write about.



			
				Blackdiamond said:
			
		

> Also, is there a connection to the up side down maps of the past and semitic map makers?


I remember some posts here mostly by Korben trying to understand the consistency of the maps and the anachronism (e.g. Hyperborea appearing in some maps but not others)
The only thing of value I have to say on this is there was likely a pole shift, and the reverse maps are influenced by that.
Somewhere in this book, I remember a reference of old compasses pointing to the south or being unusable, yet I cannot find it so I may remember wrong. I will place that quote here if I find it.


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## Gabriel (Mar 4, 2022)

NPC#0 said:


> The more this book goes, the more mythological elements are introduced. Up to reaching Jerusalem there are almost none, but the further it goes the harder it gets to believe.
> However, it doesn't sound impossible that a race of dog-human hybrids existed, given how much genetical manipulation has happened in the past with human hybrids. *Too many* ancient references of dog-headed humanoids to say with any confidence they did not exist.



_View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ikAED-mu_AM_


this video summarizes the cynocephali accounts across the many references.  

BTW, this was a great post.


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## OBRYprojekt (Mar 6, 2022)

Blackdiamond said:


> what is the meaning of the word "salem"
> and "jeru"?
> Also, is there a connection to the up side down maps of the past and semitic map makers?


"Jerusalem" is made up of two definite roots - RU/RY and ShL. The closest link to the first is Strong's H7301 "RU": translated "watered; satiate". The next is ShL (with the neutral M plural (or "ongoing" if a verb) suffix. ShL can be found in multiple simple root entries: H5394, H7944, H7945, H7953: mainly translated as words having to do with "press down; plant". YRU "to water; wet" + ShLM "press down; plant". Whether this means it was well-watered or that much water emanated from it, as it was on a mountain (not a gravel hill, as it's alternate name is Mt. Zion), is unsure. But that's very close. I have tools to help with these words at obryprojekt.info on the "resources" page.


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## ProfessorHotStuff (Mar 6, 2022)

NPC#0 said:


> *Medieval Tower Antenna*
> View attachment 20353
> The tower seems to have an obvious antenna, and even the bird pattern is interesting.


Supposedly tamgas like that were added to the tops of buildings to signify ownership/affiliation by a particular tribe or leader. A tamga was essentially a 3D version of a ruler's seal. That's not to say they don't perform some other function, but it does seem to be a way to show at a distance the owner or country to which a structure belonged to, essentially functioning as a flag but more durable.


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## Enzu (Mar 11, 2022)

OBRYprojekt said:


> "Jerusalem" is made up of two definite roots - RU/RY and ShL. The closest link to the first is Strong's H7301 "RU": translated "watered; satiate". The next is ShL (with the neutral M plural (or "ongoing" if a verb) suffix. ShL can be found in multiple simple root entries: H5394, H7944, H7945, H7953: mainly translated as words having to do with "press down; plant". YRU "to water; wet" + ShLM "press down; plant". Whether this means it was well-watered or that much water emanated from it, as it was on a mountain (not a gravel hill, as it's alternate name is Mt. Zion), is unsure. But that's very close. I have tools to help with these words at obryprojekt.info on the "resources" page.


For the name Zion, TsYUN, it could refer to dry land that rises above the well-watered places it is surrounded by, a place from which rivers flow out of. The root TsY H6716, dryness, is combined with the suffix -UN, that denotes a collection or is used as a diminutive. (to my best educated guess) TsY Dryness + -UN Collection = TsYUN, a collection of dry places


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## OBRYprojekt (Mar 11, 2022)

Enzu said:


> For the name Zion, TsYUN, it could refer to dry land that rises above the well-watered places it is surrounded by, a place from which rivers flow out of. The root TsY H6716, dryness, is combined with the suffix -UN, that denotes a collection or is used as a diminutive. (to my best educated guess) TsY Dryness + -UN Collection = TsYUN, a collection of dry places


If you look at my exaustive OBRY bi-glyph root chart at obryprojekt.info "resources" page, you'll see that, as far as the listed roots for "Ts-" go, they have more to do with a "command" or "going forth". Biblically, there are a few distinct features around YRUShLM "Zion", but none seem dry. I would guess H6723 TsYE is closer to "traveling place" or "trodden"... something of that sort.


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## Otherlane (Mar 16, 2022)

Maybe some of these rods that look like swords were ancient tasers? Quite the equalizer before the advent of the gun...smaller and weaker foes could certainly stun bigger foes with electric shock


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## Fawkes (Apr 20, 2022)

"These 3 Brethren seized all the Land. And this Cham, for his Cruelty, took the greater and the best Part, toward the East, that is called Asia, and Shem took Africa, and Japhet took Europe. And therefore is all the Earth parted in these 3 Parts by these 3 Brethren. Cham was the greatest and the most mighty, and of him came more Generations than of the others."


NPC#0 said:


> Very interesting bloodline tree.



The Book of Genesis in the Old Testament tells a different story, that Shem took Asia & (C)Ham had Africa, with Shem's line by far getting the most attention. As a matter of fact, this is the first time that I have ever seen this type of allotment to the sons of Noah.


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## ProfessorHotStuff (Apr 21, 2022)

It's too bad the earliest edition of the Bible still extant is from 1400 AD. Would love to know the actual family trees with accuracy if indeed there is such a thing.


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## Fawkes (Apr 21, 2022)

ProfessorHotStuff said:


> It's too bad the earliest edition of the Bible still extant is from 1400 AD. Would love to know the actual family trees with accuracy if indeed there is such a thing.


Yes, at one time the Habsburg Emperors had a male line pedigree from Ham, Osiris (Mizraim), and Hercules Lybius.


NPC#0 said:


> The Travels of Sir John Mandeville?


The original de Mandevilles married into the de Bouillon Crusader Kings of Jerusalem/"Swan Knights" family.


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