# Homer in the Baltic



## Silveryou (Feb 2, 2021)

This is a presentation of the work of Felice Vinci based on his own summary. Due to the fact that this theory is not very well known to the peoples who should be more interested, it has been criticized with a lot of petty arguments by those who feel deprived of “their” own supposed roots. On the other hand this theory has also gained many admirers, despite its inevitable imprecisions. The author doesn't know about Fomenko's recentism, which could clarify many of the strange similarities between cultures supposedly thousands years apart. He points at intriguing geographical correspondences but I think someone here can do even better! Regarding the supposed lack of ruins, maybe megaliths can offer an explanation. The work of Felice Vinci finds many parallels with the maps of Tartaria and the discussions that are going on about the identity of the ten tribes of Israel and this is why I decided to post this summary hoping it can give some new perspective. Enjoy!

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The real scene of the _Iliad _and the _Odyssey _can be identified not in the Mediterranean Sea, where it proves to be weakened by many incongruities, but in the north of Europe. The sagas that gave rise to the two poems came from the Baltic regions, where the Bronze Age flourished in the 2nd millennium B.C. and many Homeric places, such as Troy and Ithaca, can still be identified. The blond seafarers who founded the Mycenaean civilization in the 16th century B.C. brought these tales from Scandinavia to Greece after the decline of the “climatic optimum”. Then they rebuilt their original world, where the Trojan War and many other mythological events had taken place, in the Mediterranean; through many generations the memory of the heroic age and the feats performed by their ancestors in their lost homeland was preserved, and handed down to the following ages. This key allows us to easily open many doors that have been shut tight until now, as well as to consider the age-old question of the Indo-European diaspora and the origin of the Greek civilization from a new perspective.

Ever since ancient times, Homeric geography has given rise to problems and uncertainty. The conformity of towns, countries and islands, which the poet often describes with a wealth of detail, with traditional Mediterranean places is usually only partial or even nonexistent. We find various cases in Strabo (the Greek geographer and historian, 63 B.C. – 23 A.D.), who, for example, does not understand why the island of Pharos, situated right in front of the port of Alexandria, in the _Odyssey_ inexplicably appears to lie a day’s sail from Egypt. There is also the question of the location of Ithaca, which, according to very precise indications found in the_ Odyssey_, is the westernmost in an archipelago which includes three main islands, Dulichium, Same and Zakynthos. This does not correspond to the geographic reality of the Greek Ithaca in the Ionian Sea, located north of Zakynthos, east of Cephalonia and south of Lefkada. And then, what of the Peloponnese, described in both poems as a plain?






​In other words, Homeric geography refers to a context with a toponymy with which we are familiar, but which, if compared with the actual physical layout of the Greek world, reveals glaring anomalies, which are hard to explain, if only on account of their consistency throughout the two poems. For example, the “strange” Peloponnese appears to be a plain not sporadically but regularly, and Dulichium, the “Long Island” (in Greek “_dolichos_” means “long”) located by Ithaca, is repeatedly mentioned not only in the _Odyssey_ but also in the _Iliad_, but was never discovered in the Mediterranean. Thus we are confronted with a world which appears actually closed and inaccessible, apart from some occasional convergences, although the names are familiar (this, however, tends to be more misleading than otherwise in solving the problem).

A possible key to finally penetrating this puzzling world is provided by Plutarch (46 – 120 A.D.). In his work _De facie quae in orbe lunae apparet_ (“The face that appears in the moon circle”), he makes a surprising statement: the island of Ogygia, (where Calypso held Ulysses before allowing him to return to Ithaca) is located in the North Atlantic Ocean, “five days’ sail from Britain”.

Plutarch’s indications lead us to identify Ogygia with one of the Faroe Islands (where we also come across an island with a Greek-sounding name: Mykines). Starting from here, the route eastwards, which Ulysses follows (Book V of the _Odyssey_) in his voyage from Ogygia to Scheria allows us to locate the latter, i.e. the land of the Phaeacians, on the southern coast of Norway, in an area perfectly fitting the account of his arrival, where archaeological traces of the Bronze Age are plentiful. Moreover, while on the one hand “_sker_” in Old Norse means a «sea rock», on the other in the narration of Ulysses’s landing Homer introduces the reversal of the river current (_Od._, V, 451-453), which is unknown in the Mediterranean world but is typical of the Atlantic estuaries during high tide.







​From here the Phaeacians took Ulysses to Ithaca, located on the far side of an archipelago, which Homer talks about in great detail. At this point, a series of precise parallels makes it possible to identify a group of Danish islands, in the south of the Baltic Sea, which correspond exactly to all of Homer’s indications. Actually, the South Funen Archipelago includes three main islands: Langeland (the “Long Island”; which finally unveils the puzzle of the mysterious island of Dulichium), Aerø (which corresponds perfectly to Homeric Same) and Tåsinge (ancient Zakynthos). The last island in the archipelago, located westwards, “facing the night”, is Ulysses’s Ithaca, now known as Lyø. It is astonishing how closely it coincides with the directions of the poet, not only in its position, but also its topographical and morphological features. And here, amongst this group of islands, we can also identify the little island «_in the strait between Ithaca and Same_», where Penelope’s suitors tried to waylay Telemachus.



​Moreover, the Elis, i.e. one of the ancient regions of the Peloponnese, is described as facing Dulichium, thus is easily identifiable with a part of the large Danish island of Zealand. Therefore, the latter is the original «_Peloponnese_», i.e. the “Island of Pelops”, in the real meaning of the word “island” (“_nêsos_” in Greek). On the other hand, the Greek Peloponnese (which lies in a similar position in the Aegean Sea, i.e. on its southwestern side) is not an island, despite its name. Furthermore, the details reported in the _Odyssey_ regarding both Telemachus’s swift journey by chariot from Pylos to Lacedaemon, along «_a wheat-producing plain_», and the war between Pylians and Epeans, as narrated in Book XI of the _Iliad_, have always been considered inconsistent with Greece’s uneven geography, while they fit in perfectly with the flat island of Zealand.



 

​Let us look for the region of Troy now. In the _Iliad_ it is located along the Hellespont Sea, which is systematically described as being «wide» or even «boundless». We can, therefore, exclude the fact that it refers to the Strait of the Dardanelles, where the city found by Schliemann lies. The identification of this city with Homer’s Troy still raises strong doubts: we only have to think of Finley’s criticism in the_ World of Odysseus_. It is also remarkable that Schliemann’s site corresponds to the location of the Greek-Roman Troy; however, Strabo categorically denies that the latter is identifiable with the Homeric city (_Geography_ 13, 1, 27).






On the other hand, the Danish Medieval historian Saxo Grammaticus, in his _Gesta Danorum_, often mentions a population known as «Hellespontians» and a region called Hellespont, which, strangely enough, seems to be located in the east of the Baltic Sea. Could it be Homer’s Hellespont? We can identify it with the Gulf of Finland, which is the geographic counterpart of the Dardanelles (as both of them lie northeast of their respective basins). Since Troy, as we can infer from a passage in the _Iliad_ (XXI, 334-335), lay North-East of the sea (further reason to dispute Schliemann’s location), then it seems reasonable, for the purpose of this research, to look at a region of southern Finland, where the Gulf of Finland joins the Baltic Sea. In this area, west of Helsinki, we find a number of name-places which astonishingly resemble those mentioned in the _Iliad_ and, in particular, those given to the allies of the Trojans: Askainen (_Ascanius_), Karjaa (_Caria_), Nästi (_Nastes_, the chief of the Carians), Lyökki (_Lycia_), Tenala (_Tenedos_), Kiila (_Cilla_), Raisio (_Rhesus_), Kiikoinen (the _Ciconians_) etc. There is also a Padva, which reminds us of Italian _Padua_, which was founded, according to tradition, by the Trojan Antenor and lies in Venetia (the «Eneti» or «Veneti» were allies of the Trojans). What is more, the place-names Tanttala and Sipilä (the mythical King Tantalus, famous for his torment, was buried on Mount Sipylus) indicate that this matter is not only limited to Homeric geography, but seems to extend to the whole world of Greek mythology.



 

​What about Troy? Right in the middle of this area, halfway between Helsinki and Turku, we discover that King Priam’s city has survived the Achaean sack and fire. Its characteristics correspond exactly to those Homer handed down to us: the hilly area which dominates the valley with its two rivers, the plain which slopes down towards the coast, and the highlands in the background. It has even maintained its own name almost unchanged throughout all this time. Today, Toija is a peaceful Finnish village, unaware of its glorious and tragic past. Various trips to these places, from July 11 1992 onwards, have confirmed the extraordinary correspondence between the _Iliad_‘s descriptions and the area surrounding Toija. What is more, there we come across many significant traces of the Bronze Age. Incredibly, towards the sea we find a place called Aijala, which recalls the “beach” («_aigialos_»), where, according to Homer, the Achaeans beached their ships (_Il._, XIV, 34).








The correspondence extends to the neighbouring areas. For example, along the Swedish coast facing Southern Finland, 70 km north of Stockholm, the long and relatively narrow Bay of Norrtälje recalls Homeric _Aulis_, whence the Achaean fleet set sail for Troy. Nowadays, ferries leave here for Finland, following the same ancient course. They pass the island of Lemland, whose name reminds us of ancient _Lemnos_, where the Achaeans stopped and abandoned the hero Philoctetes. Nearby is Åland, the largest island of the homonymous archipelago, which probably coincides with _Samothrace_, the mythical site of the metalworking mysteries. The adjacent Gulf of Bothnia is easily identifiable with Homer’s _Thracian Sea_, and the ancient Thrace, which the poet places to the North-West of Troy on the opposite side of the sea, probably lay along the northern Swedish coast and its hinterland (it is remarkable that the _Younger Edda_ identifies the home of the god Thor with _Thrace_). Further south, outside the Gulf of Finland, the island of Hiiumaa, situated opposite the Esthonian coast, corresponds exactly to Homer’s _Chios_, which, according to the _Odyssey_, lay on the return course of the Achaean fleet after the war.



​In short, apart from the morphological features of this area, the geographic position of the Finnish Troas fits Homer’s directions like a glove. Actually, this explains why a «_thick fog_» often fell on those fighting on the Trojan plain, and Ulysses’s sea is never as bright as that of the Greek islands, but always «_dark-wine_» and «_misty_». As we travel through Homer’s world, we experience the harsh weather which is typical of the Northern world. Everywhere in the two poems the weather, with its fog, wind, rain, cold temperatures and snow (which falls on the plains and even out to sea), has little in common with the Mediterranean climate; moreover, sun and warm temperatures are hardly ever mentioned.

There are countless examples of this; for instance, when Ulysses recalls an episode of the Trojan War:


> «_The night was bad, after the north wind dropped,
> and freezing; then the snow began to fall like icy frost
> and ice congealed on our shields_» (_Od._, XIV, 475-477).


In a word, most of the time the weather is unsettled, so much so that a bronze-clad fighting warrior invokes a cloudless sky during the battle (_Il._, XVII, 643-646). We are worlds away from the torrid Anatolian lowlands. The way in which Homer’s characters are dressed is in perfect keeping with this kind of climate. In the sailing season they wear tunics and heavy cloaks which they never remove, not even during banquets. This attire corresponds exactly to the remains of clothing found in Bronze Age Danish graves, down to such details as the metal brooch which pinned the cloak at the shoulder (_Od._, XIX, 226). Moreover, this fits in perfectly with what Tacitus states on Germanic clothing:


> «_The suit for everyone is_ a cape with a buckle»
> («_sagum fibula consertum_»; _Germania_, 17, 1).






​This northern collocation also explains the huge anomaly of the great battle which takes up the central books of the _Iliad_. The battle continues for two days (_Il._, XI, 86; XVI, 777) and one night (_Il._, XVI, 567). The fact that the darkness does not put a stop to the fighting is incomprehensible in the Mediterranean world, but it becomes clear in the Baltic setting. What allows Patroclus’s fresh troops to carry on fighting through to the following day, without a break, is the faint night light, which is typical of high latitudes during the summer solstice. This interpretation -corroborated by the overflowing of the Scamander during the following battle (in the northern regions this occurs in May or June owing to the thaw)- allows us to reconstruct the stages of the whole battle in a coherent manner, dispelling the present-day perplexities and strained interpretations. Furthermore, we even manage to pick out from a passage in the _Iliad_ (VII, 433) the Greek word used to denominate the faintly-lit nights typical of the regions located near the Arctic Circle: the «_amphilyke nyx_» is a real “linguistic fossil” which, thanks to the Homeric epos, has survived the migration of the Achaeans to Southern Europe.



​It is also important to note that the Trojan walls, as described by Homer, appear as a sort of rustic fence made of wood and stone, similar to the archaic Northern wooden enclosures (such as the Kremlin Walls up to the 15th century) much more than the mighty strongholds of the Aegean civilizations.



​Troy, therefore, was not deserted after the Achaeans plundered and burnt it down, but was rebuilt, as the _Iliad_ states:


> «_At this point Zeus has come to hate Priam’s stock,
> so Aeneas’s power will rule the Trojans now
> and then his children’s children and those who will come later on_» (_Il._, XX, 306-308).


On the contrary, Virgil’s quite tendentious, and much more recent, tale of Aeneas’s flight by sea from the burning city of Troy (a homage paid to the emperor Augustus’s family, considered Aeneas’s descendant) is absolutely unrelated to the real destiny of the Trojan hero and his city after the war. As regards this “Finnish” Aeneas, the first king of the dynasty that, according with Homer, ruled Troy after the war (that is a kingdom which, under Priam, dominated a vast area in southern Finland; _Il._, XXIV, 544-546) it should be very tempting to suppose a relationship between his name and «_Aeningia_», Finland’s name in Roman times (Pliny, _Natural History_, IV, 96).

It is remarkable that farmers often come across Bronze and Stone Age relics in the fields surrounding Toija. This is proof of human settlements in this territory many thousands of years ago. Further, in the area surrounding Salo (only 20 km from Toija), archaeologists have found splendid specimens of swords and spear points that date back to the Bronze Age and are now on display in the National Museum of Helsinki. These findings come from burial places, which include tumuli made of large mounds of stones that can be found at the top of certain hills, which rise from the plain today, but which, thousands of years ago, when the coastline was not as far back as it is nowadays, faced directly onto the sea. This relates to a passage in the _Iliad_, where Hector challenges an Achaean hero to a duel, undertaking, in case of victory, to give back the corpse of his opponent


> «_so that the long-haired Achaeans can bury him
> and erect a mound for him on the broad Hellespont,
> and some day one of the men to come,
> sailing with a multioared ship on the wine-dark sea, will say:
> ...


These Homeric mounds «_on the broad Hellespont_» and the Bronze Age ones near Salo are remarkably similar.



​Let us now examine the so-called_ Catalogue of Ships_ from Book II of the _Iliad_, that lists the twenty-nine Achaean fleets which took part in the Trojan War, together with the names of their captains and places of origin. This list unwinds in an anticlockwise direction, starting from Central Sweden, travelling along the Baltic coasts and finishing in Finland. If we combine this with the data contained in the two poems and in the rest of Greek mythology, we may completely reconstruct the Achaean world around the Baltic Sea, where, as archaeology confirms, the Bronze Age was flourishing in the 2nd millennium B. C., favoured by a warmer climate than today’s.
​In this new geographical context, the entire universe belonging to Homer and Greek mythology finally discloses itself with its astonishing consistency. For example, by following the _Catalogue_ sequence, we immediately locate Boeotia (corresponding to the area around Stockholm). Here it is easy to identify Oedipus’s Thebes and the mythical Mount Nysa (which was never found in the Greek world), where the Hyads nursed baby Dionysus. Homer’s Euboea coincides with today’s island of Öland, located off the Swedish coast in a similar position to that of its Mediterranean counterpart. Mythical Athens, Theseus’s native land, lay in the area of present day Karlskrona in southern Sweden (this explains why Plato, in his dialogue _Critias_, refers to it as being an undulating plain full of rivers, which is totally alien to Greece’s rough morphology). The features of other Achaean cities, such as Mycenae or Calydon, as described by Homer also appear completely different from those of their namesakes on Greek soil. In particular, Mycenae lay in the site of today’s Copenhagen, where the island of Amager possibly recalls its ancient name and explains why it was in the plural. Here, in the flat island of Zealand (i.e. the Homeric «_Peloponnese_»), we can easily identify Agamemnon’s and Menelaus’s kingdoms, Arcadia, the River Alpheus, and in particular, king Nestor’s Pylos, whose location was held to be a mystery even by the ancient Greeks. By setting Homer’s poems in the Baltic, this age-old puzzle is also solved at once. What is more, it is equally easy to solve the problem of the strange border between _Argolis_ and _Pylos_, which is mentioned in the _Iliad_ (IX, 153) but is “impossible” in the Greek world. After the Peloponnese, the _Catalogue_ mentions Dulichium and continues with Ithaca’s archipelago, which was already identified by making use of the indications the _Odyssey_ supplies. We are thus able to verify the consistency of the information contained in the two poems as well as their congruity with the Baltic geography. After Ithaca, the list continues with the Aetolians, who recall the ancient Jutes. They gave their name to Jutland, which actually lies near the South-Fyn Islands. Homer mentions Pylene in the Aetolian cities, which corresponds to today’s Plön, in Northern Germany, not far from Jutland. Opposite this region, in the North Sea, the name of Heligoland, one of the North Frisian Islands, recalls Helike, a sanctuary of the god Poseidon mentioned in the _Iliad_ (it is remarkable that an old name for Heligoland was Fositesland, where «_Fosite_», an ancient Frisian god, is virtually identical to Poseidon).





​As regards Crete, the «_vast land_» with «_a hundred cities_» and many rivers, which is never referred to as an island by Homer, it corresponds to the Pomeranian region in the southern Baltic area, which stretches from the German coast to the Polish same. This explains why in the rich pictorial productions of the Minoan civilization, which flourished in Aegean Crete, we find no hint of Greek mythology, and ships are so scantily represented. It would also be tempting to assume a relationship between the name «Polska» and the _Pelasgians_, the inhabitants of Homeric Crete. At this point, it is also easy to identify Naxos (where Theseus left Ariadne on his return journey from «_Crete_» to «_Athens_») with the island of Bornholm, situated between Poland and Sweden, where the town of Neksø still recalls the ancient name of the island. Likewise, we discover that the _Odyssey_‘s «_River Egypt_» probably coincides with the present-day Vistula, thus revealing the real origin of the name the Greeks gave to Pharaohs’ land, known as «_Kem_» in the local language. This explains the incongruous position of the Homeric Egyptian Thebes, which, according to the _Odyssey_, is located near the sea. Evidently the Egyptian capital, which on the contrary lies hundreds of kilometres from the Nile delta and was originally known as Wò’se, was renamed by the Achaeans with the name of a Baltic city, after they moved down to the Mediterranean. The real _Thebes_ probably was the present-day Tczew, on the Vistula delta. To the north of the latter, in the centre of the Baltic Sea, the island of Fårö recalls the Homeric Pharos, which according to the _Odyssey_ lay in the middle of the sea at a day’s sail from «_Egypt_» (whereas Mediterranean Pharos is not even a mile’s distance from the port of Alexandria). Here is the solution to another puzzle of Homeric geography that so perturbed Strabo.

The _Catalogue of Ships _now touches the Baltic Republics. Hellas lay on the coast of present-day Esthonia, and thus next to the Homeric _Hellespont_ (i.e. the «_Helle Sea_»), today’s Gulf of Finland. In this area also lies Kurland -the Curians’ country, that is the mythical _Curetes_, linked with the worship of Zeus- where is found the figure of a supreme god, who is called Dievas in Lithuania and Dievs in Latvia; in local folklore he shows features typical of Hellenic _Zeus_ (the genitive case of the name «_Zeus_» in Greek is _«Diòs_»; _Il._, I, 5). Moreover, Lithuanian has very archaic features and a notable affinity with the ancient Indo-European language. _Phthia_, Achilles’s homeland, lay on the fertile hills of southeastern Esthonia, along the border with Latvia and Russia, stretching as far as the Russian river Velikaja and the lake of Pskov. _Myrmidons_ and _Phthians_ lived there, ruled by Achilles and Protesilaus (the first Achaean captain who fell in the Trojan War) respectively. Next, proceeding with the sequence, we reach the Finnish coast, facing the Gulf of Bothnia, where we find Jolkka, which reminds us of _Iolcus_, Jason’s mythical city. Further north, we are also able to identify the region of _Olympus_, Styx and Pieria in Finnish Lapland (which in turn recalls the Homeric _Lapithae_, i.e. the sworn enemies of the Centaurs who also lived in this area). This location of Pieria north of the Arctic Circle is confirmed by an apparent astronomical anomaly, linked to the moon cycle, which is found in the _Homeric Hymn to Hermes_: it can only be explained by the high latitude. The «_Home of Hades_» was even further northwards, on the icy coasts of Russian Karelia: here Ulysses arrived, his journeys representing the last vestige of prehistoric routes in an era which was characterised by a very different climate from today’s.




In conclusion, from this review of the Baltic world, we find its astonishing consistency with the _Catalogue of Ships_ -which is, therefore, an extraordinary “photograph” of the Northern Early Bronze Age peoples- as well as with the whole of Greek mythology. It is very unlikely that this immense number of geographic, climatic, toponymical and morphological parallels is to be ascribed to mere chance, even leaving aside the glaring contradictions arising from the Mediterranean setting.

As regards Ulysses’ trips, after the Trojan War, when he is about to reach Ithaca, a storm takes him away from his world; so he has many adventures in fabulous localities until he reaches _Ogygia_, that is one of the Faroe Islands. These adventures, presumably taken from tales of ancient seamen and elaborated again by the poet’s fantasy, represent the last memory of the sea routes followed by the ancient navigators of the Northern Bronze Age out of the Baltic, in the North Atlantic (where the «_Ocean River_» flows, i.e. the Gulf Stream), but they became unrecognizable because of their transposition into a totally different context. For example, the _Eolian island_, ruled by the «_King of the winds_», «_son of the Knight_», is one of the Shetlands (maybe Yell), where there are strong winds and ponies. _Cyclops_ lived in the coast of Norway (near Tosenfjorden: the name of their mother is Toosa): they coincide with the _Trolls_ of the Norwegian folklore. The land of _Lestrigonians_ was in the same coast, towards the North; Homer says that there the days are very long (the famous scholar Robert Graves places the _Lestrigonians_ in the North of Norway; moreover, in that area we find the island of Lamøj, which is probably the Homeric _Lamos_). The island of sorceress Circe -where there are clear hints at the midnight sun (_Od._, X, 190-192) and the revolving dawns (_Od._, XII, 3-4), typical phenomena of the Arctic regions- is one of the Lofoten, beyond the Arctic Circle. _Charybdis_ is the well-known whirlpool named Maelstrom, south of the island of Moskenes (one of the Lofoten). South of Charybdis Odysseus meets the island _Thrinakia_, that means «_trident_»: really, near the Maelstrom lies Mosken, a three-tip island. The Sirens are shoals and shallows, off the western face of the Lofoten, before the Maelstrom area, which are made even more dangerous by the fog and the size of the tides. The sailors could be attracted by the misleading noise of the backwash (the «_Sirens’ Song_» is a metaphor similar to Norse «_kenningar_») on the half-hidden rocks into deceiving themselves that landing is at hand, but if they get near, shipwreck on the reefs is inevitable.







​Besides, we can find remarkable parallels between Greek and Norse mythology: for example, _Ulysses_ is similar to Ull, archer and warrior of Norse mythology; the sea giant _Aegaeon_ (who gave his name to the Aegean Sea) is the counterpart of the Norse sea god Aegir, and _Proteus_, the Old Man of the Sea (who is a mythical shepherd of seals, who lives in the sea depths and is capable of foretelling the future) is similar to the «marmendill» (mentioned by the _Hàlfs Saga ok Hàlfsrekka_ and the _Landnàmabòk_), a very odd creature, who resembles a misshapen man with a seal-shaped body below the waist, and has the gift of prophecy but only talks when he feels like it, just like Proteus.



 



​On the other hand, there are remarkable analogies between the Achaean and Viking ships: by comparing the details of Homeric ships with the remains of Viking ships found in the bay of Roskilde, we realize that their features were very similar. We refer to the _flat keel _(one infers this from _Od._, XIII, 114), the _double prow _(we can deduce this from the expression «_amphiélissai_» Homer frequently uses with regard to their double curve, i.e. at the stern and the prow), and the _removable mast –_this is a sophisticated feature typical of Viking ships, which was typical of Homeric ships, too: many passages in both the _Iliad_ (I, 434; I, 480) and the _Odyssey _(II, 424-425; VIII, 52) confirm without a shadow of doubt that the operations of setting up and taking down the mast were customary at the beginning and the end of each mission.



​More generally speaking, apart from the respective mythologies, remarkable parallels are found between the customs of the Achaeans and those of the populations of Northern Europe, although they are separated by almost 3000 years. The systems of social relations, interests and lifestyles of the Homeric world and Viking society, despite the elapsed years, are surprisingly similar. For instance, the «_agorà_», the public assembly in the Homeric world, corresponds to the «_thing_» of the Vikings: this was the most important political moment in the running of the community for both peoples. In his turn, Tacitus informs us that at his time the northern populations held public assemblies (_Germania_, chap. 11), that appear to be very similar to the «thing» (therefore, to the «_agorà_», too). In a word, the parallels between the Homeric _Achaeans_, who lived during the Bronze Age, the Germans of the Roman period, and the Medieval _Vikings_ testify to the continuity of the Northern world throughout the ages.



​We should note that many Homeric peoples, as the _Danaans_, _Pelasgians_, _Dorians_, _Curetes_, _Lybians_ and _Lapithae_, whose traces are not found in the Mediterranean, probably still exist in the Baltic world: they find their present counterparts in the Danes, Poles, Thuringians, Kurlandians, Livonians and Lapps (this identification is supported by their respective geographic locations). Moreover, both poems mention the _Sintians_, mythical inhabitants of _Lemnos_ who were linked with the smith god _Hephaestus_ (_Il._, I, 594; _Od._, VIII, 294): their name is exactly the same as today’s Sintians, i.e. a tribe of Gypsies’, who traditionally are metalworkers and coppersmiths. We also note a possible relationship between the «_Argives_», another name for the _Achaeans_, «_Argeioi_» in Greek -i.e. (_V_)argeioi, considering the usual loss of the initial _V_ (the «_digamma_») in the Homeric language- and the “Varangians” (Swedish Vikings).

As regards the Homeric _Danaans_ («_Dànaioi_» in Greek, who were also Achaeans), at the beginning of the _Gesta Danorum_, Saxo Grammaticus states that «_Dudon, who wrote a story about Aquitania, believes that the Danes owe their origins and name to the Danaans_» (I, I, 1). This comparison has hitherto been interpreted as a means of exalting the origin of the Danes, but now one could start to see them in a new light. If we still dwell upon the digamma, we should consider now the relationship between the Greek words «_areté_» (valour) and «_àte_» (fault or error) and their Latin counterparts «_virtus_» and «_vitium_» respectively (apart from the initial _V_, the vowels _A_ and _I_ are often interchangeable: for example, «_ambush_» corresponds to the Italian «_imboscata_»). By applying the same alteration (i.e. _A→VI_) to the name of the _Achaeans_ («_Achaioi_» in Greek), we get the word “Vikings”. In a word, _Argeioi_, _Danaioi_, and _Achaioi_, i.e. the three main names Homer gives the peoples comprising the protagonists of his poems, possibly came down to modern times as _Varangians_, _Danes_, and _Vikings _(never found in the Mediterranean area, even in ancient times) respectively.

Here, therefore, is the “secret” which is hidden inside Homer’s poems and is responsible for all the oddities of Homeric geography: the Trojan War and the other events Greek mythology handed down were not set in the Mediterranean, but in the Baltic area, i.e. the primitive home of the blond, «_long-haired_» Achaeans (the _Odyssey_ claims that Ulysses was fair-haired; XIII, 399; XIII, 431). On this subject, the distinguished Swedish scholar, Professor Martin P. Nilsson, in his works reports considerable archaeological evidence uncovered in the Mycenaean sites in Greece, corroborating their northern origin. Some examples are: the existence of a large quantity of baltic amber in the most ancient Mycenaean tombs in Greece (which is not to be ascribed to trade, because the amber is very scarce in the coeval Minoan tombs in Crete as well as in later graves on the continent); the typically Northern features of their architecture (the Mycenaean _megaron _is identical to the hall of the ancient Scandinavian Kings); the similarity of two stone slabs found in a tomb in Dendra with the menhirs known from the Bronze Age of Central Europe; the Northern-type skulls found in the necropolis of Kalkani, etc.. Moreover, Aegean art and Scandinavian remains dating back to the Bronze Age present a remarkable affinity -for example, the figures engraved on Kivik’s tomb in Sweden- so much so that a 19th century scholar suggested the monument was built by the Phoenicians.





​Another sign of the Achaean presence in the Northern world in a very distant past is a Mycenaean graffito found in the megalithic complex of Stonehenge in Southern England. Other remains revealing the Mycenaean influence were found in the same area (“Wessex culture”), which date back to a period _preceding_ the Mycenaean civilization in Greece. A trace of contact is found in the _Odyssey_, which mentions a market for bronze placed overseas, in a foreign country, named «_Temese_», never found in the Mediterranean area. Since bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, which in the North is only found in Cornwall, it is very likely that the mysterious _Temese_ corresponds to the Thames, named «_Tamesis_» or «_Tamensim_» in ancient times. So, following Homer, we learn that, during the Bronze Age, the ancient Scandinavians used to sail to Temese-Thames, «_placed overseas in a foreign country_», to supply themselves with bronze.

This theory -which has already undergone a positive check by means of inspections carried out on the territories concerned, and meets Popper’s requirement on “falsifiability”- solves many other problems, such as the backwardness of the Homeric civilization compared to the Mycenaeans’; the absence of reference to seafaring and Greek mythology in the Minoan-Cretan world; the inconsistencies between the morphology of several Homeric cities, such as _Mycenae_ and _Calydon_, and their Greek namesakes; the absurdities concerning the regions of the _Peloponnese_, and the distance of the allies of the Trojans from the _Dardanelles_ area, and so on. We should also note that oxen are of the utmost importance in the Homeric world: this is the yet further evidence that we are not dealing with a Greek setting, undoubtedly more suitable for goats than oxen, but with a Northern one. Moreover, in a Greek environment one would expect a surfeit of pottery, but this is not the case: in both poems tableware is made solely of metal or wood, while pottery is absent. The poet talks of metal vases, usually of gold or silver.

For example, in Ulysses’s palace in Ithaca,


> «_a maid came to pour water from a beautiful
> golden jug into a silver basin_» (_Od._, I, 136-137).


People poured wine «_into gold goblets_» (_Od._, III, 472) and «gold glasses» (_Od._, I, 142). Lamps (_Od._, XIX, 34), cruets (_Od._, VI, 79) and urns, like the one (_Il._, XXIII, 253) containing Patroclus’s bones, were made of gold. The vessels used for pouring wine were also of metal: when one of them fell to the ground, instead of breaking, it «_boomed_» (_Od._, XVIII, 397). In a word, on the one hand, the Homeric poems do not mention any ceramic pottery, which is typical of the Mediterranean world, but, on the other, they are strikingly congruent with the Northern world, where scholars find a stable and highly advanced bronze founding industry, compared to the pottery one, which was far more modest. As to the poor, they used wooden jugs (_Od._, IX, 346; XVI, 52), i.e. the cheapest and most natural form of vessel, considering the abundance of this material in the North: Esthonia and Latvia have a very ancient tradition of wooden beer tankards.



​Therefore, it was along the Baltic coast that Homer’s events took place, before the Mycenaean migration southwards, in the 16th century B. C.. This period is close to the end of an exceptionally hot climate that had lasted several thousands of years, the “post-glacial climatic optimum”. It corresponds to the Atlantic phase of the Holocene, when temperatures in northern Europe were much higher than today (at that time the broad-leaved forests reached the Arctic Circle and the tundra disappeared even from the northernmost areas of Europe). The “climatic optimum” reached its peak around 2500 B. C. and began to drop around 2000 B. C. (“Sub-Boreal phase”), until it came to an end some centuries later. It is highly likely that this was the cause that obliged the Achaeans to move down to the Mediterranean for this reason. They probably followed the Dnieper river down to the Black Sea, as the Vikings (whose culture is, in many ways, quite similar) did many centuries later. The Mycenaean civilisation, which did not originate in Greece, was thus born and went on to flourish from the 16th century B. C., soon after the change in North European climate.






​The migrants took their epos and geography along with them and attributed the same names they had left behind in their lost homeland to the various places where they eventually settled. This heritage was immortalized by the Homeric poems and Greek mythology (the latter lost the memory of the great migration from the North probably after the collapse of the Mycenaean civilization, around the 12th century B. C., but kept a vague memory of its “hyperborean” links). Moreover, they renamed with Baltic names not only the new countries where they settled, but also other Mediterranean regions, such as Libya, Crete and Egypt, thus creating an enormous “geographical misunderstanding” which has lasted until now. The above-mentioned transpositions of Northern place-names were certainly encouraged, if not suggested, by a certain similarity (which the Mycenaeans realized owing to their inclination for seafaring) between Baltic geography and that of the Aegean: we only have to think of the analogy Öland-_Euboea_ or Zealand-_Peloponnese_ (where they were obliged to force the concept of island in order to maintain the original layout). The increasing presence of Greek-speaking populations in the Mediterranean basin, with their cultural and trade supremacy, later consolidated this phenomenon, from the time of Mycenaean civilization to the Hellenistic-Roman period.



 

​In short, besides the geographic correspondences, in favour of this theory there is the remarkable temporal concurrence between the end of the “climatic optimum” in northern Europe and the settling of the Mycenaeans in the Aegean area. We should also note that a catastrophic event happened at that time: we refer to the eruption of the volcano of Thera (_Santorini_), around the year 1630 B. C., which presumably extinguished the Minoan civilization in Crete and certainly had severe climatic consequences worldwide (traces of it were found even in the annual rings of very ancient American trees), giving rise to atmospheric phenomena which must have terrorized the Bronze Age civilizations in Northern Europe. If we consider that the “optimum” had begun to decline some centuries before, this event probably started, or quickened, the final collapse.

This is the same age as the arising of Aryan, Hyksos, Hittite and Cassite settlements in India, Egypt, Anatolia and Mesopotamia respectively. In a word, the end of the “climatic optimum” can explain the cause of the contemporary migrations of other Indo-European populations (following a recent research carried on by Prof. Jahanshah Derakhshani of Teheran University, the Hyksos very likely belong to the Indo-European family). The original homeland of the Indo-Europeans was probably located in the furthest north of Europe, when the climate was much warmer than today’s. However, on the one hand G. B. Tilak in _The Arctic home of the Vedas_ claims the Arctic origin of the Aryans, “cousins” of the Achaeans, on the other both Iranian and Norse mythology remember that the original homeland was destroyed by cold and ice. It is also remarkable that, following Tilak (_The Orion_), the original Aryan civilization flourished in the «_Orionic period_», when the constellation of Orion marked the spring equinox. It happened in the period from 4000 up to 2500 B. C., corresponding to the peak of the “climatic optimum”.

We also note the presence of a population known as the Tocharians in the Tarim Basin (northwest China) from the beginning of the 2nd millennium B. C. They spoke an Indo-European language and were tall, blond with Caucasian features. This dating provides us with yet another confirmation of the close relationship between the decline of the “climatic optimum” and the Indo-European diaspora from Scandinavia and other Northern regions. In this picture, it is amazing that the Bronze Age starts in China just between the 18th and the 16th centuries B.C. (Shang dynasty). We should note that the Chinese pictograph indicating the king is called «_wang_», which is very similar to the Homeric term «_anax_», i.e. “the king” (corresponding to «_wanax_» in Mycenaean Linear B tablets).

On the other hand, the terms «_Yin_» and «_Yang_» (which express two complementary principles of Chinese philosophy: _Yin_ is feminine, _Yang_ masculine) could be compared with the Greek roots «_gyn-_» and «_andr-_» respectively, which also refer to the “woman” and the “man” («_anér edé gyné_», “man and woman”, _Od._, VI, 184). Moreover, it is no accident that in this period the Steppe peoples -the _Scythians_, as the Greeks used to call them- who were blond or red-haired, flourished in the area where the Volga and the Dnieper run, the rivers that played such an important role as trade and transit routes between north and south. A passage from Herodotus about the origin of the _Scythians_ corroborates this picture:


> «_They say that 1000 years elapsed from their origin and their first king Targitaos to Darius’s expedition against them_» (_History_, IV, 7).


As this expedition dates back to 514 B.C., their origin would thus date back to the 16th century B. C., i.e. the epoch of the Mycenaean migration. One could venture to include in this picture the Olmecs also. They seem to have reached the southern Gulf Coast of Mexico in about the same period; thus, one could infer that they were a population who had formerly lived in the extreme north of the Americas (being connected to the Indo-European civilization through the Arctic Ocean, which was not frozen at that time), and then moved to the South when the climate collapsed (this, of course, could help to explain certain similarities with the Old World, apart from other possible contacts).

Returning to Homer, this reconstruction not only explains the extraordinary consistency between the Baltic-Scandinavian context and Homer’s world (compared to all the contradictions, over which the ancient Greek scholars racked their brains in vain, arising when one tries to place the Homeric geography in the Mediterranean), but also clarifies why the latter was decidedly more archaic than the Mycenaean civilization. Evidently, the contact with the refined Mediterranean and Eastern cultures favoured its rapid evolution, also considering their marked inclination for trade and seafaring which pervades not only the Homeric poems, but also all Greek mythology. Furthermore, this thesis fits in very well with the strong seafaring characterisation of the Mycenaeans. As a matter of fact, archaeologists confirm that the latter had been intensely practicing seafaring from their settling in Greece (their trade stations are found in many Mediterranean shores). Therefore, they had inherited a tradition dating back to a long time before, which implies that their original land lay near the sea. Further, the northern features of their architecture and their own physical traits fit in perfectly with the parallels between Homeric and Norse myths, which not only possess extremely archaic features, but also are of an undeniably seafaring nature. This is hard to explain with the current hypotheses about the continental origin of the Indo-Europeans, whereas the remains found in England fit in very well with the idea of a previous coastal homeland (by associating this with the typically northern features of their architecture we remove any doubt as to their place of origin).

Many signs prove the antiquity of the two poems and their temporal incongruity with Greek culture (this also explains why any reliable information regarding the author, or authors, of the poems had been lost before classical times), showing that they in fact belong to a “barbaric” European civilization, very far from the Aegean, as has been noticed by authoritative scholars, such as Prof. Stuart Piggott in his _Ancient Europe_. Moreover, Radiocarbon dating, corrected with dendrochronology (i.e. tree-ring calibration) has recently questioned the dogma of the Eastern origin of European civilization. Prof. Colin Renfrew describes the consequences for traditional chronology:


> «_These changes bring with them a whole series of alarming reversals in chronological relationships. The megalithic tombs of western Europe now become older than the Pyramids or the round tombs of Crete, their supposed predecessors. The early metal-using cultures of the Balkans antedate Troy and the early bronze age Aegean, from which they were supposedly derived. And in Britain, the final structure of Stonehenge, once thought to be the inspiration of Mycenaean architectural expertise, was complete well before the Mycenaean civilization began_» (_Before civilization, the radiocarbon revolution and prehistoric Europe_, chap. 4, “The Tree-ring Calibration of Radiocarbon”).






​Consequently, Prof. Renfrew goes so far as to say:


> «_The whole carefully constructed edifice comes crashing down, and the story-line of the standard textbooks must be discarded_» (_Before civilization_, chap. 5, “The Collapse of the Traditional Framework”).


To conclude, this key could allow us to easily open many doors that have been shut tight until now, as well as to consider the age-old question of the Indo-European diaspora from a new perspective.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For other images and informations you can give a look here:
_View: https://www.slideshare.net/akela64/1-aa-toija-2007-english_


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## Seven823One (Feb 4, 2021)

This theory finds some supportive evidence in another thread: https://stolenhistory.net/threads/tolkien-and-the-bock-saga.3623/#post-33397
That would explain why the mainstream would not support that archaeological dig! Too much is invested into the current theories, so many distinguished careers would be jeopardized...


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## Silveryou (Feb 4, 2021)

Seven823One said:


> This theory finds some supportive evidence in another thread: https://stolenhistory.net/threads/tolkien-and-the-bock-saga.3623/#post-33397
> That would explain why the mainstream would not support that archaeological dig! Too much is invested into the current theories, so many distinguished careers would be jeopardized...


This youtube channel is dedicated to that connection
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9EKL8uHI0c61s91Ke5f3Tg


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## freygeist (Feb 4, 2021)

I found this statement from Prof. Colin Renfrew particularly interesting:

«_These changes bring with them a whole series of alarming reversals in chronological relationships. The megalithic tombs of western Europe now become older than the Pyramids or the round tombs of Crete, their supposed predecessors. The early metal-using cultures of the Balkans antedate Troy and the early bronze age Aegean, from which they were supposedly derived. And in Britain, the final structure of Stonehenge, once thought to be the inspiration of Mycenaean architectural expertise, was complete well before the Mycenaean civilization began_» (_Before civilization, the radiocarbon revolution and prehistoric Europe_, chap. 4, “The Tree-ring Calibration of Radiocarbon”).


If that's true, that would be a groundbreaking discovery that proves what many people have been theorizing for years about ancient european cultures. That's the first time im hearing about this corrected calibration method of carbon-dating, really amazing.


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## Silveryou (Feb 4, 2021)

freygeist said:


> I found this statement from Prof. Colin Renfrew particularly interesting:
> 
> «_These changes bring with them a whole series of alarming reversals in chronological relationships. The megalithic tombs of western Europe now become older than the Pyramids or the round tombs of Crete, their supposed predecessors. The early metal-using cultures of the Balkans antedate Troy and the early bronze age Aegean, from which they were supposedly derived. And in Britain, the final structure of Stonehenge, once thought to be the inspiration of Mycenaean architectural expertise, was complete well before the Mycenaean civilization began_» (_Before civilization, the radiocarbon revolution and prehistoric Europe_, chap. 4, “The Tree-ring Calibration of Radiocarbon”).
> 
> ...


My take on the subject, from the point of view of someone interested in the recentism of Fomenko, is that these poems talk about the Early Middle Ages, also known as Dark Ages, and it's awesome because, in my opinion brings to light that period of Germanic/Slavic "invasions" of Europe known as the age of myth. The parallels between Greek myths and Norse myths are notorious...


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## dreamtime (Feb 4, 2021)

Parts of this thread have been moved into a new thread: Origin of Homer's Illiad | stolenhistory.net - Rediscovered History of the World


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## Silveryou (Feb 5, 2021)

I want to drop some bombs tonight (or today, according to the time zone). I hope this also involves the Americans in the discussion, who start yawning every time they hear about Greeks and Romans LOL.

If Felice Vinci is right in saying that the names Achaeans (Achaeans (Homer) - Wikipedia) and Vikings (Vikings - Wikipedia), Argives (Achaeans (Homer) - Wikipedia) and Varangians (Varangians - Wikipedia), Danaans (Achaeans (Homer) - Wikipedia) and Danes (Danes - Wikipedia) are related, and if we consider the possibilty that Fomenko is right when he says that our history has been extended, then Vikings, Varangians and Danes were the Acheans, Argives and Danaans of Greek legends.

But if that is true then we have to remember that Vikings went to North America. What does Plutarch say in his _De facie quae in orbe lunae apparet? "_To the great continent by which the ocean is fringed is a voyage of about five thousand stades, made in row-boats, from Ogygia, of less from the other islands, the sea being slow of passage and full of mud because of the number of streams which the great mainland discharges, forming alluvial tracts and making the sea heavy like land, whence an opinion prevailed that it is actually frozen. The coasts of the mainland are inhabited by Greeks living around a bay a£ large as the Maeotic, with its mouth nearly opposite that of the Caspian Sea. These Greeks speak of themselves as continental, and of those who inhabit our land as islanders, because it is washed all round by the sea".

I remember one of KD's threads (American Arcadia: Arcadia-city, Starnatana, Taina...) about the American Arcadia (Arcadia (utopia) - Wikipedia).






​Who are the Native Americans?


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## veeall (Feb 5, 2021)

A critical look: ODYSSEY - Yes; ILIAD - No


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## Silveryou (Feb 5, 2021)

veeall said:


> A critical look: ODYSSEY - Yes; ILIAD - No


Pay attention to the numerous petty arguments in this so-called analysis though. It appears that the author wants us to believe at all costs that Homer was not the author of both books, while in antiquity it was common knowledge that he was in fact the acclaimed author of those books. The author of this article takes into consideration the entire book of Vinci, while here I have posted just a summary by the author. Apart the location of Troy, which could be elsewhere in my opinion, and other geographical locations which could be better placed, the overwhelming Nordic ambience is recurrent in the entirety of the Iliad. There are numerous people who don't want "their" Homer to be placed in the North for nationalistic and identity problems. Here a more in depth analysis by Kalju Patustaja (new_etymology). Let me know what you think.

Just to add something more specific... The whole point of the author of that article is that Homer did not write both the Iliad and the Odissey. The so called Homeric Question (Homeric Question - Wikipedia) was posed in antiquity because the Homeric poems found no corrispondence in the Mediterranean set, as Vinci points out in his book and in this summary and tries to solve with his work. But then the Homeric Question became something else becoming the modern theory of the different authors for the two books. This theory has become so extreme to the point that today there are people who claim Homer never existed (Homer never existed - Google zoeken)!!!

Who started this madness? This attempt to remove our past from our consciousness? You can find the culprit in the Wiki article dedicated to the Homeric Question: Isaac Casaubon (Isaac Casaubon - Wikipedia). What can we learn about this man?

"Casaubon sought help by cultivating the acquaintance of foreign scholars, as Geneva, the metropolis of Calvinism, received a constant stream of visitors. He eventually met Henry Wotton, a poet and diplomat, who lodged with him and borrowed his money. More importantly, he met Richard Thomson ("Dutch" Thomson), fellow of Clare College, Cambridge, and through Thomson came to the attention of _*Joseph Scaliger*_. Scaliger and Casaubon first exchanged letters in 1594. They never met, but kept up a lengthy correspondence that shows their growing admiration, esteem and friendship". (http://chronologia.org/en/seven/1N01-EN-001-030.pdf) (Joseph Justus Scaliger according to Jacob Duellman)

They want us to be ignorant of our past.


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## veeall (Feb 5, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> Pay attention to the numerous petty arguments in this so-called analysis though. It appears that the author wants us to believe at all costs that Homer was not the author of both books, while in antiquity it was common knowledge that he was in fact the acclaimed author of those books.



You're probably right. I didn't want to shoot Vinci down, but this review kinda cooled me off a little when i read it first time, especially having previously read the reviewers own theories about ancient north and about Venetic transcriptions. There're so many theories circulating, every nation searching for his own glorious past, but histories and territories keep overlapping, with too many claimants. Probably the same provoked the author of this review to be unnecessarily harsh.

As a sidenote, he was probably wrong translating 'hiiumaa' as 'land of groves', grammatically in modern estonian that would have been 'hii*e*maa' while 'Hii*u*' is '... of A giant', 'maa'=land. Edit: or perhaps it is historically known to mean 'land of groves', i don't know.


Silveryou said:


> Kalju Patustaja (new_etymology). Let me know what you think.



Yep, this is familiar line of thought. Quite logical, nationality is also an identity, it could be that at some point of time this conglomerate of nations in Russia was proud to identify themselves as Rus. i guess the switch should be easier if the new identity is more respectable than the old one, and change of language follows, especially if enforced by state. Today, even if true, i doubt anybody in Russia would switch their identity from slavic to finnic, it would be too artificial and also, finno-ugric is the less respected one.

I haven't read Odyssey nor Iliad myself, and know 'Homer in Baltic' only through recensions and reviews. I've heard about Bocks saga, and have tried to search it, but haven't found much sensible about it. I wonder if those two relate favourably with each other.

Could local place names really survive eradication of population through wars and plaques, emigration/migration over few thousand years without written records, while memory of bygone times haven't survived among locals? Did terrain stayed largely the same during this time? I'm skeptical now, though about ten years back it fascinated me a lot, and i even introduced this theory to a publishing company i worked with at the time, which consequently translated and published the book in Estonia.

Should probably read it at some point.


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## Silveryou (Feb 6, 2021)

Rest assured that those who think of themselves as somewhat the inheritors of the ancient Greece and Rome were just Catholic and Orthodox Christians merely few decades ago. It's just propaganda fueled by the scholastic system at all levels. If the state wants everybody in school, then something must be teached to the youngsters. The classical authors didn't have a clue of where these events took place but everybody knew that the Trojan War was an historical fact. Therefore time, migrations and above all brainwashing can definitively wash away the memory of people. It's more difficult to wash away geography and climate though. That's why the relocation of the events is possible. If you lived in Italy you would have no doubt about the location of events in the Mediterranean. Even if classical authors said otherwise, some awarded professor would say that they were wrong because in antiquity everyone was stupid and we know better! It's just belief, nothing more.
So I think that a Northern location is more than possible based on the texts and without the noise of disbelievers and skeptics for fun (or well payed, or with an identity or nationalistic agenda). You speak of thousands of years and I perfectly know that the author doesn't have a clue about recentism, but I think that this theory with its identification of Vikings, Varangians and Danes as maritime peoples related to each other with Acheans, Arigives and Danaans is just a perfect example of how "recent" events (not so recent really) have been moved back in time. The Trojan War (nowadays said mythical) was dated by the first chronologists around 1200 BC. In reality these events probably occured around 800 AD, more or less. We are talking about a difference of 2000 years! If you remove that barrier everything comes logically into place. It's my intent to delve into this matter more in depth because it's fascinating and it doesn't end with Vinci's work, which is limited by the Scaligerian chronology. We'll see!


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## Kike (Feb 10, 2021)

Look into doggerrland to know the truth. 14.08 Doggerland - Greenland Theory


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## Silveryou (Feb 10, 2021)

Kike said:


> Look into doggerrland to know the truth. 14.08 Doggerland - Greenland Theory


Look at the similar names on both coasts of Africa and South America in the place in which they "combined". And the shape of the seabed and coastlines in the Pacific...






​Maybe this theory can explain the movements without the use of bombs: Expansion Tectonics. But certainly this theory doesn't say that all of this happened in the recent past!

Anyway that journey would have been too easy for Ullr/Ulysses to do...


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## Bitbybit (Feb 10, 2021)

https://theognose.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/lodyssee-dans-le-grand-nord-et-partout-ailleurs/


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## Silveryou (Feb 10, 2021)

Bitbybit said:


> https://theognose.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/lodyssee-dans-le-grand-nord-et-partout-ailleurs/


Oh yeah! I know very well that blog! Good taste


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## Sasyexa (Feb 19, 2021)

Haha, all roads lead to Hyperborea.
There's a lot of stuff happening in the north:
Things that were described in Oera Linda Book
Scythian-Gothic-Aryan connection

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOM2fT6tBFE&list=PLru9zi8j7G3Nsz03pkBzFdv_1tRxdCMJo&ab_channel=AshaLogos_

Then there's Tolkien's mythology, which was presumably translated from some Finnish manuscripts
Connection of this said mythology with Atlantis.
The Iliad and the Odyssey was a surprise to me, so great post, op!

That got me thinking though - newearth lady said, that catholic monks had a custom of switching names on maps back and forth. The northerners probably didn't take the names with them, they were assigned, like Troy instead of Ilium SH Archive - Troy: X marked the spot for centuries, but the ruins were only identified in 1822.


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## veeall (Feb 19, 2021)

There are coral fossils found in Baltic region, meaning it was warmer once - hundred thousands years ago - of course.

Edit: "There are many bioherms around Vilsandi (Estonia). Bioherm is a type of limestone formed from the fossilized remains of former coral reefs. Corals grew in these areas in the Silurian warm sea about 400 million years ago."


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## tobyahnah (Apr 11, 2021)

Sasyexa said:


> Haha, all roads lead to Hyperborea.
> There's a lot of stuff happening in the north:
> Things that were described in Oera Linda Book
> Scythian-Gothic-Aryan connection
> ...



That got me thinking too, and you boosted it, that our current society recognize 'given' names, usually by parents or grandparents, 'assumed' names, usually because we want to emulate or imitate another, but also now, here you speak of 'assigned' names, which; have become more and more evident, and significant, in light of not only colonisation of the globe but usurpation of history by Rome. Very consternating that, for example, we have Ottawa in at least four locations on earth with no apparent relativity. A very fine comment you have complimented to a very fine post.


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## Silveryou (Apr 11, 2021)

Sasyexa said:


> Haha, all roads lead to Hyperborea.
> There's a lot of stuff happening in the north:
> Things that were described in Oera Linda Book
> Scythian-Gothic-Aryan connection
> ...




_View: https://www.bitchute.com/video/FBcNhNVybPS8/_


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## tobyahnah (Apr 11, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> Kike said:
> 
> 
> > Look into doggerrland to know the truth. 14.08 Doggerland - Greenland Theory
> ...


Very interesting point(s)/ places (names).


Silveryou said:


> Sasyexa said:
> 
> 
> > Haha, all roads lead to Hyperborea.
> ...



Great video, especially in the context of the word 'video', 'vi' 'deo', 'see the demon', see the lie, see what we are told as 'truth' for what it really is; a lie. Notable that this is now on BitChute and not on YouTube, or YouLube, as it is now, not affectionately, but correctly, known.
History is being rewritten daily, immensely and enormously. I download anything of importance and store it offline: impervious to hacking though not protected, yet, from EMP. Best stored in the brain, and retained, alive. I regret not asking my great fathers, my grandfathers, a thousand more questions than I did. Lesson learned: pay attention to the weather. The whether it is truth or a lie.


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## Sasyexa (Apr 11, 2021)

tobyahnah said:


> Sasyexa said:
> 
> 
> > Haha, all roads lead to Hyperborea.
> ...




Videos shown here compliment this view as well


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## Silveryou (Apr 11, 2021)

tobyahnah said:


> Sasyexa said:
> 
> 
> > Haha, all roads lead to Hyperborea.
> ...



An example (upon many) of how "Italians" saw the people around them during the Middle-Ages




​And a statistic taken by Ridolfo Livi in the 19th century for pure blondes frequency on Italian territory


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## Silveryou (Sep 8, 2021)

By the way, to those cavemen who start screaming things like 'Nazees', 'White Supremaceeests' and the like, this theory was proposed by this man here below, not exactly the prototype of the Aryan-Supremacist!!! Is it so strange, I ask these virtue-signaling brainless kids, to accept that those Greek heroes were blonde (this is not a 'theory', this is a fact)? Shall everyone be re-coloured (or de-coloured) in the name of the politically correct? Do you look under your bed at night to see if Hitler is hiding there, ready to stab you while sleeping?
And in any case Germans are definively the most important scholars about Homeric questions both in terms of quantity and quality. This is a fact.


​The author Felice Vinci was born in Rome in 1946, graduated from the Liceo Tasso in 1964 and graduated in nuclear engineering from the University of Rome La Sapienza in 1971.



> The book _The Baltic Origins of Homer’s Epic Tales_ (Rochester, VT 2006) by Felice Vinci, with the Foreword by Joscelyn Godwin, expounds a theory upon the origins and the real setting of the Iliad and the Odyssey. It is the USA edition of _Omero nel Baltico. Le origini nordiche dell'Odissea e dell'Iliade_ ("Homer in the Baltic. The Nordic Origins of the Odyssey and the Iliad") by Felice Vinci (6th edition, Rome 2016), which is introduced by Prof. Rosa Calzecchi Onesti, a scholar and translator of the Iliad and Odyssey into Italian. The book was also published in Russia (_Гомер и Балтика_, 2004), Estonia (_Homerose eeposte Läänemere päritolu_, 2008), Sweden (_Skandinaviskt ursprung för Homeros dikter_, 2009), Denmark (_Homers nordiske rødder_, 2012), Germany (_Homer an der Ostsee_, 2012), France (_Homère dans la Baltique_, 2016).​
> A congress entitled "The Nordic Origins of the Homeric poems", centred around the topic of this book, was held by the University of Rome in 2012. The Proceedings were published by the _Rivista di Cultura Classica e Medioevale_ (a very prestigious Review of Classical Philology here in Italy) in the monographic issue 2/2013 entitled "Scandinavia and the Homeric poems": there are articles of both Italian and foreign scholars on that topic as well as a wide abstract by the author (DOI: 10.1400/212850).
> 
> _An international panel upon this topic was held by the ATINER of Athens in April, 2017_. The article presented by the author, entitled "The Nordic Origins of the Iliad and Odyssey: An Up-to-date Survey of the Theory", was published in the Athens Journal of Mediterranean Studies, vol. 3, issue 2, April 2017, pp. 163-186, website
> ...


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## theheir (Oct 1, 2021)

> Likewise, we discover that the _Odyssey_‘s «_River Egypt_» probably coincides with the present-day Vistula, thus revealing the real origin of the name the Greeks gave to Pharaohs’ land, known as «_Kem_» in the local language.


There is a town 'Kemi' and 'Keminmaa' (translation: Land of Kemi) in the Northern Finland and they are situated by the river Kemijoki (Kemi river). The Kemijoki leads to town of Rovaniemi, locally nicknamed as 'Rollo', like the alleged founder of the Normans/Romans. The one who supposedly invaded northern France during the ninth and tenth centuries and settled his people in the area of Normandy, which again supposedly means 'Land of the north men.

Egypt was called 'Keminmaa' in Mika Waltari's novel 'The Egyptian' ('Sinuhe Egyptiläinen' in Finnish), which tells a story about the time in Egypt, when the pharaoh Akhenaten tried to start monotheism, his god being "universal creator god" Aten (Aton or Aton-Ra in Finnish). The people weren't supposed worship Aten but_ the son of Aten_, the Pharaoh, who then would worship Aten. To this sounds quite familiar.

The story of the birth of the novel is a interesting (Wikipedia): 


> The novel was written within a three and a half-month period of great inspiration, with Waltari producing as many as between 15 and 27 sheets per day. So intense was his state of inspiration and immersion that, in a fictionalised account called _A Nail Merchant at Nightfall_ he would write later, he claimed to have been visited by visions of Egyptians and to have simply transcribed the story as dictated by Sinuhe himself.


The completed manuscript, totaling almost one thousand pages, required little to no corrections or deletions by the editor.

For what it's worth, the novel is known for its high-level historical accuracy of the life and culture of the period depicted (Wikipedia) by modern era historians. 

I don't try to tell any story with this post, it's just association and stream of consciousness.


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## Sasyexa (Nov 1, 2021)

I didn't consider the possibility before, but could the Faroe islands be related to Pharaohs?

France - Biblical Israel

Apparently, there was a lot of gypsy kings in Scotland and England: King of the Gypsies - Wikipedia

It could also explain the legend described in this video: 
_View: https://youtu.be/uGwgkQUV0H8_

Apparently, Egyptians travelled there from Spain

_P.S._ Turns out, some of those things were mentioned here: Scottish history, part of the persecution


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## Starman (Nov 1, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> By the way, to those cavemen who start screaming things like 'Nazees', 'White Supremaceeests' and the like, this theory was proposed by this man here below, not exactly the prototype of the Aryan-Supremacist!!! Is it so strange, I ask these virtue-signaling brainless kids, to accept that those Greek heroes were blonde (this is not a 'theory', this is a fact)? Shall everyone be re-coloured (or de-coloured) in the name of the politically correct? Do you look under your bed at night to see if Hitler is hiding there, ready to stab you while sleeping?
> And in any case Germans are definively the most important scholars about Homeric questions both in terms of quantity and quality. This is a fact.
> View attachment 12612​The author Felice Vinci was born in Rome in 1946, graduated from the Liceo Tasso in 1964 and graduated in nuclear engineering from the University of Rome La Sapienza in 1971.



Not to forget Vinci's co-author, Bill Mullen, a dear friend of mine who died exactly 4 years ago today.  He was an avid and active Electric Universe member. 

_"William Mullen received his BA in Classics from Harvard College and his PhD from the University of Texas. He was a Professor or post-doctoral Fellow at Berkeley, Princeton, Boston University, and Harvard’s Center for Hellenic Studies and St. John’s College. Dr. Mullen settled in the Classics Department at Bard College in 1985."_


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## Silveryou (Nov 2, 2021)

Sasyexa said:


> Apparently, there was a lot of gypsy kings in Scotland and England: King of the Gypsies - Wikipedia


The proponents are in my opinion trying to establish a semitic origin through some wacky word-plays, since everything should come from the Middle-East according to them. So the gypsies are romani people, which are the Romans, who were the Graeco-Romans and therefore the Greek tales describe (semitic) Gypsies from the Middle-East. There you go... black semitic LFBTQQ++-- scandinavians in tutu.


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## Silveryou (Dec 9, 2021)

A review with adding elements by a knowledgeable French recentist (L’Odyssée dans le Grand Nord (et partout ailleurs)), here translated:

*The Odyssey in the Far North (and everywhere else)*

I have a great interest in recentist theories, the most radical of which is that carried by the Russian school around Anatoly Fomenko. It begins the history known to the world after the year 1000, with a Christ crucified in Byzantium in the 11th or 12th century. Fomenko has a very solid statistical base, but when it comes to agreeing on the details he's a bit of a guessing game. This kind of radical theories adapts very well to major geographic shifts.

Other authors start from geographic transpositions. Conversely, they are much more respectful of established chronologies.

Imad Jacob Wilkens "Where Troy Once Stood" and Felice Vinci "The Baltic origins of Homer's Epic Tales" suggest that the events of the Trojan War and the journey of Odysseus, recounted by Homer, took place in the north of the Europe. They are supported by many other authors who dare to comment in passing on the Nordic character of these adventures, but without devoting an entire thesis to them.
Morten Alexander Joramo in “The Homer Code” allows himself to modify his place identifications a little. We give him the point for the island of Hyperion, the land of the Lestrygons and the island of Circe. It is harder to grant him that Lemnos could be Heligoland, Hellas in southern Finland and Troy in England. He relies on Wilkens' book to locate Troy in England, but we can tell that he does so only because he absolutely wants Hellas to be in the south of Finland. But this is precisely where Vinci places the Troad.
Moreover, if Lemnos were Heligoland, and the land of the Pheacians the island next door, which he discusses much later in his story, Homer would have mentioned Lemnos again.

These details are quite minor. Overall, I say bravo to Felice Vinci, I affirm that his geography is the right one and that he should read his book.
There are many authors confirming the Nordic theory. Bertrand Russel writes: “the Mycenaeans were undoubtedly Greek speaking conquerors, of which the aristocracy at least were blond Nordic invaders. (History of Western Philosophy).

Vinci makes good use of the writings of Plutarch, Tacitus and Plato.
Tacitus writes in Germany that Ulysses sailed the northern seas and visited the Teutons. The Germans for Tacitus encompass all of Scandinavia.
Plutarch is even more explicit. He writes: “Ogygie [the island of the nymph Calypso] is five days sailing west of the island of Brittany. Vinci suggests identifying Ogygie with the island of Stora Dimun in the Faroe archipelago.
In the Critias, Plato speaks of the "round hills" that Athens had round hills, while it is surrounded by mountains. He says that at the time of the "ancient Athenians" who conquered the Atlantean Empire, the acropolis was larger, and extended as far as Eridan and Ilissus. It goes without saying that the Athenian acropolis is circumscribed by the height where it is built, and that in no case does it extend as far as the Po, which today we designate as being the ancient Eridanus. Plato therefore knows full well that he is not talking about the Athens that we know. But as he specifies that the ancient Athenians occupied the same country as himself, one can also wonder if Plato himself really came from the Mediterranean world.

Strabo, a geographer and supposedly later author, tells him that attempts are made to believe that the accounts of the Iliad and the Odyssey took place in the eastern Mediterranean. But for his part, he does not believe it: Homer's Peloponnese is an island as well as a vast plain and not a mountainous peninsula; Crete and Rhodes are not islands either; the island of Pharos is a day's sailing from the Egyptian coast and not opposite Alexandria; Pylos, Scheria, Dulichium are not found in the Greek world. He adds about Troy "this is not the site of the ancient Ilion, and the Trojans know it well", which, by the way, means that there was in his time a Troy in the Mediterranean of which we also have lost the location.

Medieval works are also cited: thus Saxo Grammaticus in his Gesta Danorum dated 12th century says that the king of the Danes went to conquer the Hellespont. He mentions typically “Greek” places like the Styx. Vinci judiciously reverses the original and the copy. The original is to the north, the copy to the south.
The 13th century Edda in prose, by Snorri Sturlusson, tells the legend of Ull the archer whose legend is more or less identical to that of Ulysses.

However, it will be noted that, starting from a geographic revisionism, Vinci is totally orthodoxy with regard to chronology. He doesn't even seem to know the mainstream that denies the existence of the Dark Ages of Greece. In the most common chronology, the Trojan War ends in the 12th century BC, and nothing more happens in Greece until Dorian society arrives in the Peloponnese in the 8th century BC. However, Thucydides (for example) only admits eighty years between these two events. To give his Achaeans time to cross Europe and settle on the shores of the Mediterranean, Vinci proposes to set back the Trojan War a little further, and proposes a date in 1630 BC, thus making it contemporary. of the supposed date of the eruption of a supervolcano on the island of Santorini.
It is this gigantic explosion that would have led the Achaeans of the Baltic to leave their usual shores to move south and found the Mycenaean civilization, which has retained the trace of the ancient Nordic civilization, going so far as to resume the toponymy Nordic, recreating a Mycenae, an Argos, a Peloponnese, etc. It is a second explosion of Santorini, in the 12th century BC, which would have brought the end of the Mycenaean civilization of the Mediterranean, to the date where “classical” historians therefore place the Trojan War. By the way, it is quite astonishing to highlight a Mediterranean supervolcano to explain that inhabitants of the far north are settling nearby. While it is true that the impact of such an explosion is global, the first to suffer are certainly its immediate neighbors.

Vinci will however use curious comparisons to validate his chronology. He admits that there is no trace of anything dating from the third millennium in the Nordic world, no Scandinavian text before the year 1000.
He does not question whether his closest sources for the events he describes date from the 12th and 13th century AD. And is ecstatic in front of the great cultural continuity of the peoples of the north for nearly three millennia, both in terms of habitat, clothing, the shape of boats, local legends!
He will even say that the Vikings most certainly took the same routes once taken by the divine Achaeans, via the great rivers of Central Europe and Russia; and that the Viking society benefited between the 8th and the 12th century from a climatic optimum quite comparable to that which the famous Achaeans had enjoyed in the 3rd millennium BC! This allowed them to colonize Greenland (the Green Earth).

Homer as Saxo Grammaticus describes a Nordic society well, but the first would speak to us eight centuries before our era, eight hundred years after the events, while the second copies an original story three millennia old! All the while knowing how to locate it in the right environment, whereas Strabo, from the 1st century, began not to know too much!

This time lag is explained. The great continuity between the culture of the Germans of Tacitus (1st century) and the Viking society cannot be explained by the great conservatism of the people of the north. Anatoliy Fomenko puts forward monumental arguments to demonstrate that almost all of the "classical" Greek or Roman authors wrote in the 13th or 14th century. Almost contemporaries of Grammaticus. Homer, he must not be much older.
There was in fact no reason for the Renaissance to suddenly become passionate about “ancient” authors whom we had never heard of before, nor to bring ancient statuary and colonnades up to date if this period did not exist. 'was contemporary or just earlier.
Officially, the invasions of the Vikings began in the 9th century. We will allow ourselves to say that if it is the end of the medieval climatic optimum that led them to migrate, the 12th and 13th centuries are more likely. Moreover, Saxo grammaticus, who wrote putatively in the 12th century, does not mention such migrations.

It is likely that the relocation of these events to the Mediterranean rim is more than late. When Vinci points out that the Olaus Magnus marine charter mentions Horrenda caribdis (Charybdis) instead of the Mosken maelstrom south of the Lofoten Islands, he forgets to point out that this map dates from the 16th century! He quotes in passing an 18th century writer (a certain Jonas Ramus) who still places Charybdis in this place.
However, the migration bears the signature of the Vikings. We know that the oldest tombs of Mycenae, in a style similar to that of the Viking tombs, contained amber artefacts, thereby showing a link with the northern coasts of Europe where amber is produced. There are also horned helmets and dolichocephalic skulls of the "Nordic" type. Very quickly, the amber disappears from the tombs of Mycenae. Thus the Mycenaean civilization is posterior to the Viking invasions. The culture of Wessex (Stonehenge), which has been dated from so-called "Mycenaean" artefacts to twelve centuries BC, is probably of Saxon origin, as its name suggests, but from Saxons later than 'we don't usually think of it, from the 12th century and not from the 5th century.
All the cultures thus dated to the Early Bronze Age in Germany (Unetige culture), southern Russia and Hungary are very likely to date from the Viking invasions.

Plutarch (14th century?) Wrote “there are islands beyond Ogygia, and beyond the great continent which surrounds the ocean. Its coast is inhabited by Greeks, along a gulf at least as large as Lake Meotis [the Sea of Azov in the Mediterranean world, but it is assumed that Plutarch had something larger and more Nordic in mind] . These Greeks call themselves Continental. "
We know that the Vikings of Leif Eiriksson colonized Vinland and Greenland, and we can suggest that "Greeks" in Plutarch may be a deformation of Varangians, the Scandinavian people who colonized Russia from the 9th century (and probably a little later). Indeed, the Germanic W is often transformed into G in the Gallic languages as are the Italian patois. Vinci showed that the W in Germanic languages is written in Old Greek with a digamma (and in Latin by the letter v), which falls in Homer's Greek as well as in classical Greek, but whose presence is felt always in the metric of the verses of the Iliad and the Odyssey by an extension of the syllables.

Indeed, Vinci even allows himself to highlight the continuity of the language between its third millennium BC, and that of the Vikings. The Achaean, Danaean, Argian terms which designate the peoples who besiege Troy ('Achaioi, Danaoi and' Argaioi) would be deformations undergone in Ionic-Aeolian Greek by the words Vikings, Danes, and Varègues. We have kept the trace of digamma in our western languages, which suggests that Homer's version is a late version.
In reality, Vinci concluded without saying it with this argument since he validates it: the Achaeans are the Vikings. He takes a similar step by speculating on the identity of the Gutis, invaders from the north who overthrew the Akkad empire in the 22nd century BC… and the Goths. It is very likely that Vinci thinks like a recentist but that he cannot admit it too openly!

Plutarch adds that the colonists arrived in successive waves, first the people of Cronos, then the companions of Hercules. It will be noted that Heracles is a character anterior to Homer's Trojan War by one generation, and therefore that this colonization of America is therefore also de facto older than the account in the Iliad.

Lapp dwellings, Native American tipis, have a tree in the middle of the house like Volsüng, Sigurd's father in Edda, or like Ulysses in the Odyssey. The Aztec god of the dead Tlaloc - equivalent to Cronos - is believed to come from the far north. But one would find many other similarities across the world.

The academic world has no shortage of specialists in the Indo-European world, who are well aware of the points in common between Rome, Greece and the Persian or Aryan societies of India.
Indian scholar Tilak deduced from the texts of the Vedas that they referred to an arctic civilization. Mount Mérou or Soumérou (similar to the name Sumer) is the cradle of the aryas and is found in the far north. Morten Alexander Joramo quotes a very scholarly work from the 19th century written by a certain William Warren and entitled "From the cradle of the human race", where almost everything comes from the North Pole: even tropical flora and fauna!
It was often recognized that their migrations did not have as long as it is sometimes said. It is likely here that they should be dated from the same time as these Viking invasions in Europe. We have already written (see previous article) that the Persians of the Old Testament were probably the same as we find in the 7th century at the origins of Islam, fighting Byzantium. Fomenko pushes this date back again and he is probably right, as the invaders from the north did not yet arrive in Persia in the 7th century.
Vinci also suggests a Nordic origin for the Sumerians and the Ancient Egyptians, even if he assigns them a migration even older than that of the Achaeans, especially not to question the great antiquity of these peoples. But we did find two Viking-type boats buried next to the pyramid of Cheops, and the boats by which the founders of the kingdom of Egype (dynasty 0) would have arrived typically have this flat bottom and the two prows that we find in viking ships.

It should however be noted that the Vedas are “arctic”, while the Homeric texts are only “Baltic”. Homer already mentions, if we are to believe Felice Vinci, of the original gods living further north than the Achaeans and Trojans. Jurgen Spanuth identified the homeland of the Pheacians, called Scheria, with Atlantis and the very many similarities between Plato's account and that of Homer are very convincing in this regard. But the land of origin of the Pheacians, Hypereia, further north (which Vinci assimilates to Pieria, another place cited by Homer but this time in the Iliad, and to Lapland), has already been swallowed up by the waves a generation before. the time that Homer describes. Some have also pointed out parallels between Troy and the city of Atlantis, but if we accept Homer's account, the struggle of the "ancient Athenians" against the Atlantean Empire predates the Trojan War by a generation. It is contemporary with the Argonauts expedition. Theseus, founder of the Athenian confederation, also participated among most of the authors in the expedition of the Argonauts. Heracles too, and at that time he had not yet migrated anywhere.

We therefore have the following chronology:

1) the Atlanteans of Cronos, alias the Vikings discover Greenland and America. Under the name of Arya, they conquer Persia and India.

It would not be surprising if the accounts of Mesoamerican tribes encountered by Cortes and his ilk, claiming an “Atlantean” origin in the far east refer to the same men from the North.

2) Heracles and Theseus take part in the Argonauts expedition, at the same time as the “ancient Athenians” are fighting the Atlantean empire. Around the same time seven Achaean kings march against Thebes, and the Lapiths defeat the Centaurs.

Vinci clearly locates the Colchis and the Golden Fleece in the far north, but also Hypereia the land of origin of the Pheacians in the far north, and Jurgen Spanuth clearly identified the Pheacians with the Atlanteans. Theseus the Athenian not being able to be everywhere at the same time, the Colchis is another name of Atlantis. The Seven against Thebes and the war of the Lapiths against the Centaurs are contemporary wars, where other heroes are illustrated.

3) The main island of Atlantis disappears under the waves. Nausithous (the Phaeacian king in the Odyssey) migrates to Scheria further south. Athens is victorious. Heracles attacks Laomedon in Troy, which also suffers a tidal wave.

4) The Greeks of Heracles, more southerly Vikings, in turn colonized America. Under the same name of Heracles, Gaul and Spain are also invaded.

5) The Trojan War is waged by the Achaeans against the Trojans.

Heracles, cited in the works of Homer, and putatively Nordic, has many similarities with the character of Arthur. A detailed account of these similarities can be found in Emmet Sweeney's “Arthur and Stonehenge - Britain's Lost History”. His contemporary Theseus, also present during the Argonauts expedition, removed a sword from a rock.
Arthur is most likely derived from the Scandinavian first name Arnthor. Merlin or Bors built Stonehenge, while it was Boreas or Bor who built Asgard.

British authors Alan Wilson and Baram Blackett point out that two generations ago, little Britons learned Arthur in history lessons and are alarmed at his relegation to the rank of myth. The Breton and Welsh annals attest to the existence of this king according to them. If we do not trust as much as they do what we can find in chronicles, which have a political function of legitimizing the sovereigns of the time, we can be fairly convinced by their account of the conquest of America. by the Welsh general Arthur, and by the many pages evoking the discovery of white Indian tribes and speaking Welsh.
It was discovered by Anatoliy Fomenko that the later chronicles of English kings are copies of the Byzantine chronicles. It would not be surprising if this propensity to usurp the past of Byzantium had an precedence. Indeed, Wilson and Blackett consider that it was Arthur who defeated and killed Emperor Gratian in Lyon, and on the faith of Geoffrey de Monmouth and other Breton sources, that certain emperors like Magnus Maximus or the great Constantine were of Breton origin. It is indeed very probable that the accounts of Rome or Byzantium and those of Brittany evoke the same characters, but it is not certain that they were Bretons in the restrictive sense that one would give them today.

Wilson and Blackett gag when it is suggested that the Bretons could be “Celts”. And indeed, the Celts have always designated the Gauls among classical authors. But the continental Gauls. The similarity of the names of Gauls and Welsh is probably not accidental. It is certainly Celts which is the restrictive ethnonym and Gauls the most general, contrary to the use which is made of these terms. We find the root Gal among the Welsh, Gaels, Galicians, Galatians. The transposition into W in the Germanic languages makes us find the same root among the Valais, the Walloons, or even the Vlachs of Romania.
The Irish called the Vikings "Galls", that is to say "foreigners". Curiously, the Welsh (Welsh) are also the "foreigners" for the populations of German-speaking Saxon origin. The Swiss Romandies are also called Welsch by the German-speaking Swiss. For the Irish, the Donegals are the Danish Vikings, which means "black foreigners", the Finegals the Norwegian Vikings, which means "white foreigners". Thus the Gaels who would have colonized Scotland and Ireland in a “prehistoric” period could also be only an avatar of these Vikings. Donegals may be reminiscent of the Tuatha of Dannan, although these are usually considered to represent an older migration. However their eponymous ancestor Nemed is however typically one of the names of Heracles, who is the leader of the Gals invaders in France. Lebor Gabala Erenn considers the Nemedians to be a separate and even earlier migration.
This differentiation into "white" and "black" is found among the Huns, a people with red hair, whose origin is Nordic.

These Gals are in the Gallic traditions of migrants from the north or the east. Like the Greeks of Plutarch in America, the Berry tradition relates a second migration, of Cimmerians this time.
Wilson and Blackett ignore the Gallic tradition on the Gals, but set great store by the Cimmerians. They identify the Cimmerians with the ten tribes of Israel. After their deportation to Assyria, the ten tribes were in "the cities of the Medes" and among the Nations. Subsequently, they would have arrived in the peninsula of Jutland (Denmark) where they called themselves Cimbri, and in Wales, where they called themselves the Cymris.
We do not reject these parallels. However, the Cimmerians in the Odyssey are a people living in cold and almost permanent darkness. If Homer's account is correct on this point, and the populations of the far north then migrated south, the primitive homeland of the Cimmerians is located in the far north, and then stems from the Danish peninsula and into the island of Brittany. It is also not unlikely that they lived in Asia Minor. But these Gimmirai mentioned in the tablets of Ashurbanipal found in Nineveh are invaders from Crimea, driven out by the advancing Scythians, they are not indigenous or from central Palestine.
Homer's Cimmerians are neighbors of Colchis if Vinci's geography is correct, and their propensity to conquer makes them convincing Atlanteans.

In support of the statements of Wilson and Blackett, we can add that in the Table of Nations of Genesis, Gomer is the first son of Japhet. It is sometimes presented as designating the Germans, sometimes the “Gimmirai” of Ashurbanipal, “Kimmeroi” of Herodotus, whom we call Cimmerians.
However, it is his son Ashkenaz who separated his people in two, one part going to live in the Cities of Medes, the other in Europe, which is precisely what is said in the Bible of the ten tribes of Israel.
The tradition of Berry calls the eponymous hero Gomer Gallus, son of Gomer, and identifies him with Heracles. However, the only one of Gomer's three sons to migrate to Europe is Ashkenazim. Ashkenaz therefore designates the Gauls and all assimilated peoples. If he is Heracles, the Homeric texts identify his homeland of origin in northern Europe.
However, if it is true that the traditions of the Anglo-Saxons say they are descended from the ten tribes of Israel, this is the case for a large number of peoples through the number, especially in parts of the world colonized by the Aryas .

However, if we do find two migrations in the traditions of Berry, they sometimes seem to merge into one, and sometimes to be presented in the opposite order to that which we have identified so far. For them, the Gals arrived before the Cimmerians. There were also other Gals who accompanied the Cimmerians on their journeys. But the name of Gomer Gallus suggests otherwise. Gallus is the son of Gomer: the Gals are descended from the Cimmerians. The southern Vikings are much later than the Cimmerians of the far north.

And as Gomer is also the eponymous hero of the Germans and Gallus that of the Gauls, the Gals are a branch of the Germans / Atlanteans. They are white and black, Norwegian and Danish, they are also the white and black Huns.
The name Walloons could be another example of the fall of an initial digamma in classical Greek; they would have become the Hellenes. It is these "companions of Hercules" that Plutarch would call "Greeks". The same that Wilson and Blackett identify in the light of their national chronicles as "Bretons".


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## Silveryou (Dec 10, 2021)

*Digamma *(Digamma):

We have applied the recentist theories of an Anatoliy Fomenko, who begins known history about a thousand years ago (11th century), and asserts that history is only reliable from the 17th century, to the story of Felice Vinci who in "The Baltic origins of Homer's Epic Tales" situates the events of the Trojan War and the journey of Odysseus in northern Europe.

We will try to unravel the language questions that may arise. In fact, Homer's texts have reached us in Ionic-Aeolian Greek, in an apparently recent form, since the digamma has disappeared from its version. It appears that the linear B, writing found in Mycenae, Pylos or Cnossos, reads a language similar to that of Homer, but written in a syllabary, like Akkadian, and not in an alphabet like Greek. It would be the same language, but in an older wording.

Vinci not having dealt with these questions in depth, one would suppose that Homer's Greek, relatively different in appearance from the Scandinavian languages, is a later translation of the Nordic author, made to be read by a Mediterranean audience.
However, Vinci tries well and with some success to trace the origin of Homer's Greek to the Germanic languages.
The Achaeans are the Vikings. It would be a generic term, grouping the Dananeans (Danes) of Denmark and the Argiens (Varègues) of Sweden. It would be necessary to verify whether the Achaean heroes can be attributed one of the other two terms or both in the Homeric account. If our guess is correct, never will a Dananean be described as an Argian, and an Argian will never be described as a Dananean.
The passage from Varègues to Argiens ('Argaioi) and from Vikings to Achaeans (' Achaioi) could be explained by the fall of the digamma, written F and pronounced “oué”, between the linear B of Mycenae which possesses it, and the language of Homer. However, Homer's rhapsodies have retained a trace of this in the metric of the verses, which require long vowels. The digamma also existed in the Coptic alphabets, and especially in the Gothic.
We can therefore suggest that there is an original Germanic language, prior to that of linear B.

This hypothesis is fully that of Bertrand Russell, who writes: “the Mycenaeans were undoubtedly Greek speaking conquerors, of which the aristocracy at least were blond Nordic invaders. (History of Western Philosophy).
Russell might have been introduced to something. For him, Nordic blondes speak Greek! This is fully the meaning given to the name of "Greeks" who conquered the continent on the other side of the Ocean by Plutarch: for us it is about Vikings.

The Edda in prose by Snorri Sturlusson (13th century) mentions the adventures of Ull the archer, very close to those of Ulysses. It is probable that the Ulysses form is original and at least anterior to the Odysseus form that the name of the hero takes from Homer. Vinci mentions in passing the transitional form Olysseus used in Athens, Corinth or in Boeotia. It does not suggest - of course - the anteriority of this form. Thus for him, it is the Latin lacrima which would come from the Greek dacryon. We suggest the opposite.
Adolphe Granier de Cassagnac showed as early as the 19th century that Latin is a priestly language that the people never spoke, whose grammar has nothing to do with that of the so-called Latin languages and their numerous patois. The so-called patois are not the degeneration of anything but the many forms that these languages took across the Iberian Peninsula, Italy and France, which however all shared a common grammar.
Jean Espagnolle has proven the identity of some of these patois with certain forms of "Dorian" Greek. It offers a Dorian dialect that is different from the French, Aquitaine and Basque languages. Basque is the language of Sparta, inherited from Cantabrian Iberia. Espagnolle has a long lexicon of what he calls “etymologies”. That is to say, he considers that our dialects were brought to us thanks to the numerous Dorian colonies installed on the coasts of Western Europe. However, it is precisely one thing that Cassagnac refutes: seaside settlers are absolutely unable to give a language to an entire continent.
We cannot say that the patois of the West derive from this old Greek: it is the same language written in the Latin alphabet and without the usual endings of Greek. This Greek therefore lasted in its original form in the West much longer than in Greece itself, until the 19th century, when Jean Espagnolle wrote. Dorian dialects were quickly erased by the Ionian-Attic Koine spoken in Athens at the beginning of our era. That is to say, according to the rules of Cassagnac, that it probably has no stock in Greece, that it was imported there. This is not surprising: the Dorians invaded Greece.
It is much more likely that colonization took place the other way around. Besides, the Gauls also invaded Greece, supposedly two hundred and fifty years after the Dorians, coming from the north by the continent like them. Classical literature, however, makes very little reference to it. This is because she calls them Dorians, and not Gallic. However, it is doubtful that this invasion concerns the small Greek peninsula which we now call the Peloponnese as we will see below.
Homer's works have come down to us in another Greek language, Ionic-Aeolian. We assume that this language is of Germanic origin. To my knowledge, there is no work equivalent to that of Jean Espagnolle showing Greek in modern Swedish or Danish or their patois. Legends, after all, are there. Morten Alexander Joramo says that there is an old Finnish-Swedish language that all Scandinavian countries understand, while they do not understand each other in their respective languages. We would also be interested in comparing the linear B with the Scandinavian runic.
If the "Greek" digamma pretty much disappears or turns into upsilon in classical Greek, in the Etruscan language (of Gallic grammar) it turns into V, pronounced u or w. In Latin, it sometimes turns into F (which is written like digamma). We don't say that digamma turns into V (oué) in Latin, and we don't say it because we assume older Greek. Thus Felice Vinci supposes - rightly - a similarity between the Greek "hecatomb" and the Latin "victima". It is usually thought that "slaughter" would come from hekaton boos (one hundred oxen) but Homer speaks in one place of a slaughter of fifty sheep. The Latin victima, on the other hand, has exactly the same meaning as the Greek hecatomb.
In our opinion, the Latin version - which has not lost the digamma - better reflects the Germanic original. Latin is like the Germanic languages a case and declension language. Vinci even points out, without going into more depth, that Lithuanian has endings in "ius" which may make you think of Latin. As Cassagnac says, the Gallic populations of Italy, France and Spain never spoke it. It is therefore probably a language imported by the Vikings, either because it is their priestly language as Cassagnac assumes, or whether it is one of their common languages.
Greek, on the other hand, exists in many versions, which are actually transcriptions into a new alphabet of pre-existing languages. Dorian dialects are Gallic dialects, Ionic-Aeolian dialects are Germanic dialects. “Classical” Greek probably even derives from Latin, which is “Germanic” in essence. So when Cadmus brings the Phoenician alphabet to Europe, he brings the possibility of writing languages that were not written, but not a particular language. Phenicia is also a neighbor of Ithaca in Homer, and Cadmus would thus be a viking!
It will be recalled that there are no real traces specific to the Dorians in the Peloponnese. The very word Dorian as it exists in the Iliad designates a people of Crete (!) And not of Thessaly - their mythical cradle - where we place it. The appellation of "Dorian" Greek that Jean Espagnolle gives to the language which he thinks to be at the origin of the Gallic patois has the value that we want to give it, even if, in this case, it could be correct. .
The return of the Heraclids to the third generation, to retake the throne of Argos, Pylos and Sparta, is done with the help of the Dorians. Thucydides says that this event happened eighty years after the Trojan War. We are happy to bet that at the time of Thucydides the Viking world had not yet moved to southern Europe. It could simply be a reflection of Heracles' conquest of Gaul, or a second invasion eighty years later. This seems to put Wilkens' Homeric geography back in the saddle, which we had set aside in favor of that of Vinci. Indeed, where Vinci sees the Peloponnese in the island of Zealand in Denmark, Vinci offers northern France.
The authors Grishin and Melamed in "The Medieval empire of the Israelites" (an opinion which agrees perfectly with that which we present, Israel being more or less synonymous with Atlantis in our reconstruction) assert that the war of the Peloponnese of Thucydides (431- 404 BC), which saw Sparta clash with an Attic confederation led by Corinth and Athens, is a description of the Greek War that took place between 1374 and 1387 between Navarre and a confederation led by Corinth and Athens.
This is correct: Jean Espagnolle in "The Origin of the Basques" affirms the quasi identity of the language of Sparta and of the Basque language, as well as their identity of tradition. More broadly, Basque and Iberian are synonymous terms. Obviously, he thinks that some Greeks from the Peloponnese that we know of established colonies a long time ago in Spain. We suggest here that the Peloponnese means the Iberian Peninsula, and Sparta the Cantabrian region. It is perhaps from the name of Sparta that the Jews of Spain derive their name from "Sephardim" as the Ashkenazim are those of Germania. It is true that Judas Maccabeus writes in an apocryphal to the king of Sparta as to a brother of race.
We have well observed the precedence of the Gallic and Germanic patois over the Greek dialects "Dorian" and "Ionic-Aeolian". A final transformation interests us in this triangular game: the inversion of Gallic “g” into “w” in Germanic languages. We do not always know in which direction this substitution occurs or if it is done in both directions, that is to say if it is the Celtic word which gave the Germanic word or the opposite.
Where Latin writes V and pronounces W, the patois of France and Italy write V… and pronounce V. In Spain, they write V and pronounce B.
So sometimes the sound W is preserved (Wallon), sometimes it becomes V (Valais), sometimes it becomes G (Gallic). Secondly, V can become B (Vascons becomes Basques). It is said that Gascon comes from Vascon, but the succession of pronunciations is not obvious. It is not impossible that Vascon is a distortion of Viking.


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## Safranek (Dec 10, 2021)

Great research, I've been trying to make sense of these things also.

Since you've ventured into language, I have been researching this aspect for some time now, but I haven't posted a thread yet as the rabbit-hole keeps getting deeper and there is more material to sift through and organize for congruent presentation. However, since you've taken the thread in this direction, here is a video by Peter Revesz from that research since it ties into this subject. He's a computer data miner/modeler who took an interest in linguistics, genetics and archeology. However, this video only deals with the subject of the title.

*Breakthrough Decipherment of Minoan Linear A and Cretan Hieroglyphs | Minoans Part 1*


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiLyN9T2stY_


If you find it interesting, its worth checking out his other lectures and reading his papers for additional info.


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## Sasyexa (Dec 10, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> Vinci even points out, without going into more depth, that Lithuanian has endings in "ius" which may make you think of Latin


I've only scratched the surface with this, but Lithuanian has forms of some words that look most similar to Latin (as compared with Russian and English). The ones that first come to mind are 'mensis' and 'mėnesis', 'venit' and 'eina'. I also should mention that Lithuanian is seemingly more complex than Latin.

Some other Latin words are almost identical to Russian ones, as in 'videt' and 'видит (vidit)' (the root 'vid' also means 'view' in Russian). Alexey Khrustalyov has also compiled some work in tracing the origin of some Latin and German words from Slavic languages. Usually by examining the morphemes.

English though, has a surprisingly large amount of Latin borrowings.

_P.S._ Btw, considering what Otrok Vyacheslav had said, this theory and the words "ancient Athenians vs Atlanteans", this joke starts to sound ever less like a joke:


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## Silveryou (Dec 11, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> *Adolphe Granier de Cassagnac* showed as early as the 19th century that Latin is a priestly language that the people never spoke, whose grammar has nothing to do with that of the so-called Latin languages and their numerous patois. The so-called patois are not the degeneration of anything but the many forms that these languages took across the Iberian Peninsula, Italy and France, which however all shared a common grammar.
> *Jean Espagnolle* has proven the identity of some of these patois with certain forms of "Dorian" Greek.


About these two important authors above, @Will Scarlet showed me a passage from Fulcanelli that I report here below for greater insight.

Fulcanelli, 'The Dwellings of the Philosophers', 1929:

"In 1872", wrote J.L. Dartois, "Granier de Cassagnac, in a marvelously erudite and pleasantly styled work entitled: History of the Origins of the French Language, pointed out the inanity of the neo-Latinism thesis which pretends to prove that French is evolved Latin. He showed that it was not defensible and that it shocked history, logic, and common sense, and that, finally, our idiom refused it ". A few years later, M. Hins in turn proved in a very well documented study published in the Review of Linguistics that all the works of Neo-Latinism only allowed us to conclude a kinship with it, not a direct connection with the so-called Neo-Latin languages. Finally, Monsieur J. Lefebvre in two remarkable and much read articles published in June 1882 in The New Review, demolished the Neo-Latinism thesis from beginning to end by proving that Abbot Espagnolle in his book The Origin of French was indeed right; that our language, as the greatest scholar of the 16th century had guessed, was Greek; that Roman domination in Gaul had only covered our language with a thin layer of Latin, in no way altering its genius". The author further adds: "If we ask Neo-Latinism to explain how the Gallic people, which counted at least seven million inhabitants, could forget their national language and learn another one, or rather change the Latin language into the Gallic language which is more difficult; how the Roman legionaries, who themselves for the most part did not speak Latin and were stationed in fortified camps separated from each other by vast spaces, were nevertheless able to become the teachers of the Gaulish tribes and teach them the language of Rome, that is to say, to accomplish among the Gauls alone a miracle that the other Roman legions were not able to accomplish anywhere else, neither in Asia, nor in Greece, nor in the British Isles; how, finally, the Basques and the Bretons succeeded in maintaining their languages while their neighbors, the inhabitants of Bearn, Maine and Anjou lost theirs and were forced to speak Latin. What would Neo-Latinism tell us?". This objection is so serious that it is Gaston Paris, the head of the School of Neo-Latinism, who is charged with answering it. "We Neo-Latins", he says in substance, "are not obliged to resolve the difficulties that logic and history may raise; we are only concerned with the philological fact and this fact dominates the question, since it proves, alone, the Latin origin of French, Italian, and Spanish"... "Assuredly", answers Monsieur J. Lefebvre, "the philological fact would be decisive if it were properly established, but it is not so at all. With all the possible subtleties of the world Neo-Latinism in fact only succeeds to observe this very banal truth, that there is a great quantity of Latin words in our language. This has never been contested by anyone".

As for the philological fact invoked but in no way proven by Gaston Paris, in order to attempt to justify his thesis, J.L. Dartois shows its lack of existence based upon the works of Petit-Radel. "To the pretended Latin philological fact", he writes, "we can oppose the evident Greek philological fact. This new philological fact, the only true one, the only demonstrable one, has a capital significance, since it proves without doubt that the tribes which came to people Western Europe were Pelagian colonies, and it confirms the beautiful discovery of Petit-Radel. We know that the modest, humble scholar read in 1802 before the Institute a remarkable work in order to prove that the polyhedral block monuments which are found in Greece, Italy, and France, and even in the heart of Spain and which were attributed to the Cyclops, are the work of the Pelagians. This demonstration convinced the Institute and no doubt has been raised since about the origin of these monuments. The language of the Pelagians was archaic Greek, above all made up of the Aeolian and Doric dialects, and it is exactly this form of Greek which is found everywhere in France, even in Parisian slang (Argot d’Paris)".


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## Silveryou (Dec 12, 2021)

*A Northern Language* (Un langage du nord):

Grishin and Melamed themselves propose the linguistic arguments which suggest an origin of the Empire in the north, but do not draw the consequences. The language of the Empire would have been ancient Lithuanian or Slavonic. Lithuania at the time corresponds to Homeric Crete as seen by Felice Vinci, and to the territory of future Prussia. It encompasses eastern Germany, Poland, the Baltic countries, Ukraine, Byelorussia and western Russia.

We have not done any personal linguistic research, so we accept the propositions of Grishin and Melamed for the moment.

The authors cite the first edition of the Encyclopedia britannica from 1771 which says that Greek is identical to the Corinthian dialect of Slavonic. This sentence is curious: the Corinthian dialect is considered today as a Dorian "Greek" dialect and is no longer spoken in Greece. This affiliation with Corinthian Doric dialects is to check, Jean Espagnolle, this French linguist of the 19 th century, clearly identified the Doric dialects to the different Romance languages or Gallic.

Our authors also consider that the ancient Lithuanian is at the origin of Latin, with which he shares many affinities. But Latin is a case-and-declination language like modern German can be, and very different from the Romance languages of Italian or French.

The Latin would thus inherited his alphabet and language of the Lithuanian towards the second half of the 14 th century. The Hebrew and Greek Dorian would also be derived from the former Lithuanian, but later than Latin and dated 15 th and 16 th centuries.

Modern Greek would be much closer to Bulgarian, a language whose origins are further east (Bulgarians is an ethnonym implicating a people from the banks of the Volga). This would suggest a linguistic change after 1771 in Greece, like a second invasion from the north, but by a more eastern route! A more complete linguistic study carried out by a specialist would be enlightening.

According to the reconstructed history, all these languages do not begin to be written until very late. The alphabets bloom from the 14 th century, the first being the Sanskrit, which precedes the Slavonic.

Hebrew like Latin are commercial and priestly languages, languages of the court, which only the elite master. Hebrew is used in particular in commercial documents from Venice. In the 16 th century alone, Greek is used to convey spoken languages. It is broadcast at the same time as French, English or German. It should therefore come as no surprise that "Dorian" Greek conveys exactly the same language as the patois of France: languages begin to be written at the same time: with the exception of the Greek finals, the alphabet alone is different.

The ancient Norse would therefore have been the Greeks of Plutarch, but contrary to what Bertrand Russel said would not have spoken the Greek we know.

We believe that Davidenko and Kessler's proposals identifying Bosnia (a country with a name close to Byzantium, or - we add - would be pyramids) and northern Italy as the land of milk and honey called Israel in the Bible are acceptable, but not the location of Egypt and wandering in Italy. Egypt was further north.

Vinci gives many elements justifying the presence of Crete on the coasts of the Baltic Sea, in particular this Eridan which would be the Oder already mentioned, and which Homer calls Iardanos. However, he places Egypt more or less in the same place, but with less arguments, except for a similarity of name between the island of Farö facing the European coasts of the Baltic which he assimilates to the island. of Pharos from the old man Proteus.

If Homer's Iardanos is in Crete, like the Eridanus in the map drawn after Hecataeus in Poland, Eridanus is later clearly another name for the Po.

Incidentally, Slavonic is "the language of slaves". The ancient Lithuanian being a matrix of the Germanic languages, it probably gave Yiddish. Davidenko and Kessler even add that in Norwegian jyder (Danish) is pronounced the same as jøder (Jewish).


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## Will Scarlet (Dec 20, 2021)

I came across this image today quite by accident. It's very strange...




"A Gallic druid is using a mallet to remove a ring which [ìs] hemmed [i.e. joining the two halves together] in a globe inscribed "Gaul"; he is assisted by two Roman soldiers and surrounded by female allegorical figures, a sickle and fasces, while the Olympian gods look on from above; representing the opening of Gaul to the Roman Empire." _Source_

It has all the relevant ingredients plus a few more. Weird eh?


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## Silveryou (Dec 20, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> Weird eh?


I can't really tell what's going on without a context. It seems a typical 18th century print (engraving?). I've seen a lot of '''theories''' going around this kind of illustrations and all of them generally bring to absolutely nothing. The only thing I can see is how Romans were depicted differently from today and the so-called druid has no particular feature to recognise him as such.

P.S. _fasces _alert above the clouds! Is it the Phoenicians walking through the sky thanks to their _reknown _space battle ships?


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## Safranek (Dec 20, 2021)

Or it could just be symbolic image by them showing their attempt to break the 'chains' that bind them.


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## Silveryou (Dec 21, 2021)

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myjaFG5yNA4_


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCuC6ZsI70s_


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## Will Scarlet (Dec 21, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> I can't really tell what's going on without a context.



I did some more digging. Seems it's part of a series from a book called 'Medicea Hospes'

Plate 12- Allegory on the Discord in France, from Caspar Barlaeus, "Medicea Hospes" 1638
Hercules forges the split French empire into a unity; Festivities in the visit by Maria de 'Medici to Amsterdam in 1638. Tableau Vivant. Hendrik IV, dressed as Hercules, together with Mars and Minerva the globe of the split French empire again. Left The fertility goddess' watch. Right handles power of peace. Presentation used in the water theater on the Rokin. Legal under numbered: 12. Plate 12 of the illustrations in the description of the festivities around Maria de 'Medici to Amsterdam's visit from 31 August to 5 September 1638.
Artist: Pieter Nolpe (Dutch, 1613/1614–1652/1653)
Artist: After Claes Moeyaert (Dutch, Amsterdam 1591–1655 Amsterdam)
Author: Caspar Barlaeus (Dutch)

 ​I thought it might give a clue to 17th century thinking on the Greeks / Romans / Gauls etc. Apologies if it's not relevant.


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## Silveryou (Dec 21, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> Hercules forges the split French empire into a unity; Festivities in the visit by Maria de 'Medici to Amsterdam in 1638. Tableau Vivant. Hendrik IV, dressed as Hercules, together with Mars and Minerva the globe of the split French empire again. Left The fertility goddess' watch. Right handles power of peace.


It seems an auto-translation right? I would say that Hercules (who goes by the name of Gomer according to some) is the druid holding the globe, as in the myth in which he substitutes Atlas as the pillar (one of the four pillars in reality). Contrary to the description it seems he is the one splitting the globe in two and then some tragedy happens with the gods' intervention from above.
It can be a representation of the change in power in France bringing to the throne the first Bourbon after the Valois rule. The author I previously cited says that 'Valois' means 'Gaulish', for the same Digamma thing explained in one of the previous posts (and obviously this is the case for Wales too). So it makes sense that Henry IV the Bourbon destroys Gaul. But I think he poses as new Hercules based on the already accepted narrative of a Graeco-Roman civilization conquering the barbarians, or something like that, with divine approval.


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## Fawkes (Dec 21, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> But I think he poses as new Hercules based on the already accepted narrative of a Graeco-Roman civilization conquering the barbarians, or something like that, with divine approval.


Henry IV, as Hercules, vanquishing the Lernaean Hydra (i.e. the Catholic League), by Toussaint Dubreuil, c. 1600




"The old roads will all be improved,
One will proceed on them to the modern Memphis:
The great Mercury of Hercules fleur-de-lis
Causing to tremble lands, sea and country.

Henry IV was known as the *Gallic Hercules* and endures to this day as one of France's most popular rulers.

In essence it was Henri that modernised the run-down city of Paris and its supply routes thereby removing the impediments to trade and prosperity. Paris was not on the great Roman routes and the old roads that had been the backbone of transport for over 1500 years had to be rebuilt in order that Paris could become the modern hub of the 17th century. In so doing it replicated the achievements of the ancient trading hub of Memphis as implied in Nostradamus' verse."

Nostradamus on Henry IV of France

Both the French Royal House and the Habsburgs claimed Merovingian descent, which leads back in the male line to Hercules of Libya, the son of Osiris (Egyptian connection with Memphis) and King of Spain, Gaul, and Italy. Both the French Bourbon dynasty founder Henry IV and his second wife Marie de' Medici (granddaughter of Habsburg Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand I), the mother of his children, thus had Hercules as an ancient ancestor.


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## Silveryou (Dec 21, 2021)

Fawkes said:


> In essence it was Henri that modernised the run-down city of Paris and its supply routes thereby removing the impediments to trade and prosperity. Paris was not on the great Roman routes and the old roads that had been the backbone of transport for over 1500 years had to be rebuilt in order that Paris could become the modern hub of the 17th century.


Or more probably it's just a cover-up for the destruction gently provided in the aftermath of the Saint Bartholomew massacre!

But I think it's better to return on the subject of the thread.


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## Fawkes (Dec 21, 2021)

Sasyexa said:


> Scythian-Gothic-Aryan connection


From the Wikipedia article on the Ukraine:

_During the Iron Age, the land was inhabited by Cimmerians, Scythians, and Sarmations. Between 700 BC and 200 BC it was part of the Scythian Kingdom, or Scythia._​​_Beginning in the sixth century BC, colonies of Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, and the Byzantine Empire, such as Tyras, Olbia, and Chersonesus, were founded on the northeastern shore of the Black Sea. These colonies thrived well into the sixth century AD. The Goths stayed in the area, but came under the sway of the Huns from the 370s AD._​


Silveryou said:


> But I think it's better to return on the subject of the thread.


I was actually proposing a connection between ancient Memphis and Paris (much farther "north" than Memphis). Perhaps I chose the wrong thread, Sorry.


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## Silveryou (Dec 21, 2021)

Fawkes said:


> I was actually proposing a connection between ancient Memphis and Paris (much farther "north" than Memphis).


Ok fine. But I think trying to understand the Homeric poems using 16th century 'knowledge' is a hard task, since by that time the setting was already placed in the Mediterranean, without being able to locate the places and therefore bringing us to the the 17th century when these stories were collectively labelled as myth. You can see that Henry IV is just _impersonating_ Hercules. It's not even comparable, imo, to the Arch, where true alt history is disclosed. I agree with you that here we are already in the modern era of fake genealogies, since this is the epoch of Scaliger and the Gregorian calendar was already used in France. Also all of this piece of French history is quite controversial and I don't see a connection with Homer's tales, unless you are saying something more deep that I didn't manage to capture.


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## Fawkes (Dec 21, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> Ok fine. But I think trying to understand the Homeric poems using 16th century 'knowledge' is a hard task, since by that time the setting was already placed in the Mediterranean, without being able to locate the places and therefore bringing us to the the 17th century when these stories were collectively labelled as myth. You can see that Henry IV is just _impersonating_ Hercules. It's not even comparable, imo, to the Arch, where true alt history is disclosed. I agree with you that here we are already in the modern era of fake genealogies, since this is the epoch of Scaliger and the Gregorian calendar was already used in France. Also all of this piece of French history is quite controversial and I don't see a connection with Homer's tales, unless you are saying something more deep that I didn't manage to capture.


The supposed Merovingian ancestry of the French dynasty connects to them to the Trojans of Homer's "Iliad" and, even further back in time, to Hercules and Osiris (Memphis), which may be a hidden reason why Henry IV was impersonating him. From Fictitious Habsburg Genealogies genealogy project - 

In his earlier years Maximilian was inclined to accept the Pierleoni descent. Later, he favored research that showed he was a descendant of the ancient Trojan kings through the Merovingians. The French kings claimed the same origin, but their line went through the Carolingian usurpers. Claiming a different version of the same line allowed Maximilian to present himself as the legitimate heir of the ancient kingdoms of Gaul and Germany, and provided a justification for his territorial expansion into France and Burgundy.
In 1649 French genealogist Jérôme Vignier advanced a new idea about the Habsburg origins. He based his theory on a manuscript fragment he found in Lorraine, but never produced the manuscript. He traced their ancestry back to Eticho, duke of Alsace in the 7th century, and from him back to Aega, _major domo_ of Clovis II in the 6th century.
At the time, this line had political implications. The Habsburgs were no longer the heirs of the ancient French kings, they were one branch of a subordinate family.

So it looks as though the French Merovingian descent back to the Trojans of Homer's "Iliad" set the pattern for the Habsburg descent, unless I am reading and understanding it wrong. Perhaps I am saying something more deep, without intending to sidetrack this thread topic, Sorry.


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## Silveryou (Dec 21, 2021)

Fawkes said:


> Perhaps I am saying something more deep, without intending to sidetrack this thread topic, Sorry.


That's ok. I see that words such as 'Hercules' and 'Troy' are clearly connected to the topic, but the thread is entirely about a relocation of the geography, the racial background of the peoples involved and the eventual language they spoke.

Edit: and the time when these events really happened, of course.


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## Silveryou (Dec 22, 2021)

*Celtic Frost *(Celtic Frost):

After Felice Vinci "The Baltic Origins of Homer Epic Tales" , I received the competing book by Iman Jacob Wilkens "Where Troy Once Stood" .

Wilkens like Vinci therefore point to the Nordic origin of the Iliad and the Odyssey. In the end, there is nothing innovative about it. Professor Lasserre, French translator of the Iliad, considered that the Achaeans had invaded Greece from the north, taking with them the cults of the supreme god Zeus and the mother goddess, and had sacked Rome in 387 BC . In the official story, it was the Gauls who brought Rome to its knees, so Lasserre visibly identifies Homer's Achaeans with these Gauls. Herodotus was not citing the Achaeans, but the Pelasgians, like the invaders of Greece, who had changed the names of the cities, rivers and regions of the country to those of their country of origin.

Herodotus also distinguishes between the Achaeans and the Pelasgians. He also writes that the first inhabitants of Thrace were the Achaeans and Pelasgians. The territory of Thrace must therefore be larger than that of the Achaeans and Pelasgians.

I took the evidence to point to a character identity between Achaeans (blond) and Vikings, and assumed that the conflict took place perhaps a thousand years ago. Felice Vinci's location identifications did not make it possible to link the war in question to a known conflict. It was known that the Vikings had descended rivers from Russia to invade Eastern Europe and the Byzantine Empire, and that this explained the migration of the Vikings to Greece. It seems that both the Vikings and the Achaeans organized their raids against England (Wilkens' Troy), from Aulis as well.

Moreover, if it is a northern and Scandinavian people who brought their culture to Greece, there is no such thing in Western Europe. This one does not consider itself Greek! On the other hand, in the Middle Ages, most of the peoples of Western Europe claimed to be descendants of the Trojans. The Franks had their Sancta Troia which would have been Xanthen on the Rhine, the Bretons Caer Troia (London), the Romans said they were descended from Aeneas.

Wilkens like Vinci propose dates that are orthodox and far too old. Vinci thinks that the Achaeans founded Mycenae and the Mediterranean Troy, as well as all the Cyclopean cities or not having inherited the names cited by Homer. As these would have been destroyed around 1200 BC by a second eruption of the Santorini volcano, he suggests that the calamity that led the Achaeans to migrate south corresponds to a first eruption of the said Santorini in the 17th century BC. Wilkens respects the most orthodox date: 1200 BC. Mediterranean cities have already been destroyed during migration.

Vinci constantly compares the customs, the clothes of the Achaeans from Homer to that of the Vikings, astonished at such a cultural permanence for more than two millennia. He is still astonished that the two civilizations knew an era where the climate was warmer, followed by a small ice age which brought these people down towards the south.

Wilkens offers to identify the places mentioned by Homer to compare the names that appear in the maps of the 11 th century. It will be noted that, if these identifications are correct, there too we have a great permanence of the names of places for more than two millennia, names which have become unrecognizable in a few centuries. The suggestion of a medieval date for the Trojan War seems based on solid premises.

Wilkens points out that the zodiac orientation system is close to the "12 winds of Ptolemy" (which Fomenko dates to the Middle Ages) and medieval maps.

Many novels are known before that of Homer, and are published in the Middle Ages. It will come as no surprise that Benoît de Saint-Maure is a Norman poet from the 12th century century, and one of the first to tell a full story since the first expedition of Jason and Hercules against Troy, the reconstruction of the city by Priam, the kidnapping of Helena, the Trojan War and the voyages of Odysseus, all of it in a unique novel! Yet Wilkens assures us that Homer's stories were not known before the Renaissance, the Middle Ages being more familiar with the alternative stories of Dictys the Cretan or Darès the Phrygian, the latter telling the story on the Trojan side. According to Wilkens, all medieval authors were based on Darès. But Darès only evokes the Trojan War. Where could Benoît de Saint-Maure have known all the rest of the story?

The point is, if we accept the tradition recorded by Virgil, the Trojan ancestry of the Romans is after the Trojan War. We also know that the primitive elements of the Roman religion (the year of ten months ...) relate to an arctic myth. That is, the founding of the city by Romulus has a connection to the north, and its refoundation by Aeneas - if Troy is to the north - also has a connection to the north. It is more than likely that both myths relate to the same events.

For the Bretons, Monmouth reports that Brutus the Trojan, descendant of Aeneas, will found from Rome a new Troy in England.

Following Cailleux and Gideon, Wilkens places the old Troy right next to the new one, in the Cambridge area. He thinks that Trojans inhabited Hissarlik between 1180 and 1100 BC, where pottery similar to that of Wessex is found, before returning, first to Italy, then again to England.

So he seriously thinks, on the faith of Nennius and Monmouth, that Brutus and his Trojans passed the pillars of Hercules, for him Gibraltar, before returning to colonize England, eighty years after the end of the Trojan War.

But if the two Troyes were next to each other, it's more likely that Monmouth may have been seeking a tale to validate the enduring legend that made the Britons descendants of the Trojans. In his time, the site of ancient Troy had already been relocated to Asia Minor. Trojans, they were, by the simple fact that they still lived around Troy. For linguistic elements, we can cite _The History of Britain Revealed_ by MJ Harper. This would show that English (and not Welsh for example) has a linguistic priority over the Romance languages as over the Germanic languages, and that the two branches come from it. This is consistent with a Troy in England and a Trojan origin of both Britons and Franks.

Curiously, like Monmouth, Thucydides mentions an eighty-year interval between the end of the Trojan War and the episode he calls the return of the Heraclides, whose historians make the equivalent of supposed "Dorian invasions" in the Greek peninsula. However Thucidydes did not believe that the Trojan War took place in the regions he inhabited, so the return of the Heraclides certainly concerns these same places in the north. This same length of time, and the mention of a return to Thucydides which is lacking in Monmouth's text where it should be, are quite surprising.

Note that for the same Thucydides, Thebes in Boeotia was founded sixty years after the Trojan War. However, the Boeotian contingent of the Iliad does have a city called Thebes.

Wilkens brings two more than interesting hypotheses absent from the work of Felice Vinci. First, it presents the Odyssey as a nautical chart intended for travelers. Second, he suggests, with the support of certain authors, that the Homeric texts are initiatory accounts. Freke and Gandy had shown this about many Greek texts, from which Homer was absent. It probably made sense that the oldest myths could be treated in the same way. Wilkens, like Timothy Freke or William Warren, asserts the ancient existence of monotheism, which I also believe. As Wilkens shows, the labyrinths of Troy, very famous ... in northern Europe, are supposed to represent initiatory mysteries. Curiously, some of the comparisons cited take us back to the Middle Ages:

Wilkens' use of his own assumptions is less convincing. We will come back to the subject of the nautical chart. As far as Gnosticism is concerned, Wilkens hardly seems to know much about it, and his interpretations can be wisely ignored.

It will be noted that the accounts of the Old Testament also have a lot in common with the Homeric accounts. I quoted Jonas and Ulysses. For more details, we can offer _Homer's Odyssey and the Near East_  by Bruce Louden as a reading on this subject.

Overall, Vinci offers a more northerly, more Scandinavian geography of the Iliad and Odyssey, and Wilkens makes a more westerly and Celtic proposition.

Morten Alexander Joramo in "The Homer Code" tried to synthesize each other's ideas, giving preference where their views differed. He agrees with Wilkens to locate Troy and his allies in England, but follows Vinci in identifying the peoples of the Achaean boat catalog. Thus the Achaean confederation comes from the area all around the Gulf of Bothnia, from Denmark, the east coast of Sweden, the Baltic coast of Germany and Poland (Egypt and Crete), the Baltic countries and the west coast of Finland. Some of Ulysses 'adventures contain too many elements pointing to an arctic location to choose Wilkens' Caribbean and tropical solutions.

We have already pointed out the angle acquired between the terrestrial equator and the ecliptic plane following a cataclysm. For Wilkens' latitudes to be correct, the earth's axis of rotation would also have to change. It is a proposal made by Charles H. Hapgood and in which Einstein was interested. It was not a cosmic collision that Hapgood had in mind, but a southward slide of the earth's crust on the liquid magma of the asthenosphere. Without having thoroughly studied the idea, I do not believe it is appropriate for the context.

Thus Vinci places the Lotophages, the Cyclopes, the Laestrygons from the south to the north of Norway. Between the Cyclops and the Laestrygons, the fleet reaches the island of Eole that Vinci identifies as an island in the Shetland archipelago. Aeolus helps Ulysses return to Ithaca, but in sight of their homeland, the sailors open the bag of the winds that Aeolus gave them and find themselves again on his island. This time he refuses to help them, and Odysseus's ships must take to sea again, as far as the land of the Laestrygons.

In the land of the Laestrygons, it is possible to earn twice your wages by keeping oxen by day and goats by night. It is a reference to the permanent sun reigning in the arctic regions. Vinci identified Aeaea the island of Circe in Haja, not far from Lamoy (which he identifies with the town of Lamus of the Laestrygons) by its linguistic similarity, but Joramo shows that the island of the Bear not far from the pole corresponds better at descriptions of the Odyssey. From the island of Circe, Ulysses reaches the land of the Cimmerians, who live in permanent fog, and from there the land of Hades where the souls of the dead are. William Warren had placed the land of Hades in the southern hemisphere, but as we have shown, when you are at the North Pole, everything is in the South. It is more likely the lands on the other side of the pole which are indicated, either Canada or Siberia. Vinci does not go that far: it bypasses the Kola Peninsula and finds the entrance of the Styx into a unique hydrographic system that crosses Finland and part of Russia from west to east. After having resisted the song of the Sirens, Ulysses must pass between Charybdis and Scylla. Medieval chroniclers and even some maps clearly identify Charybdis with the Mosken maelstrom in the southern Lofoten Islands. In short, everyone already knew it. Vinci had proposed Mosken Island for Thrinacia Island where Hyperion's herds graze. Joramo prefers Treniken to him, for its name and its number of sunny days in the year: 350, like the number of cows of Hyperion. Cows can be compared to dawn or to different days of the year in Aryan myths, as Tilak has shown. Ulysses then arrives at the island of Ogygia, where he spends seven years with the nymph Calypso. Vinci offers Stora Dimun, an island in the Faroe archipelago. It is essentially in order to be able to identify the passage to the south of the Faroes with the pillars of Hercules (or Atlas or Briarea) that this identification is proposed, and it is not the clearest. Hermès leaves Olympus, crosses Pieria and arrives on the island of Ogygia where he announces to Calypso that the will of the gods is that Odysseus can leave. On a raft, it sails for eighteen days and risks shipwreck due to the storm caused by Poseidon. With the help of Ino or Leucothea, Ulysses arrives in Scheria, the land of the Pheacians. Vinci then quotes Jürgen Spanuth, who showed the great similarity in the descriptions of Scheria in the Odyssey and that of Atlantis in Plato. Scheria is not, however, the original country of the Pheacians, who made the decision a generation earlier to leave the country where they lived next to the Cyclops who were hostile to them. Also, no Scheria on the map because Atlantis was submerged. Spanuth sees it as an island south of Heligoland, near the coast in western Denmark. Following which Ulysses finds Ithaca.

Ulysses first plundered the land of the Cicones on his return from Troy. The Cicones were allies of Troy in the Iliad, and Ulysses took to sea without covering much distance. After leaving the land of the Cicones, Ulysses crosses Cape Malée and is caught in a storm that brings him to the land of the Lotophagi. Ménélas also crosses Cape Malée, is caught in a storm and arrives in Egypt, while another part of his boats arrives in Crete.

Joramo proposed Ijseelmeer in the Netherlands for Ismara the city of Cicones and the tip of Jutland for Cape Malée.

The Egypt of Vinci and Joramo is next to Crete, but it is not clear whether it is to the west or to the east (they together form the German and Polish Baltic coasts). Oddly enough, the Egyptians find themselves among the peoples of the boat catalog, but they do not speak the same language, and they did not participate in the Trojan War.

Wilkens relied heavily on linguistics, but also on "zodiacal" indications of the directions followed in particular by Ulysses during his journey, to validate his Celtic hypothesis. Thus a ram in the text would suggest a direction to the west, because the vernal point in Homer's "remote" time would be located in Aries. Indeed, he cites works showing that the Celts used the zodiac as we know it for orientation, and had another tree-based zodiac for practicing divination. Wilkens also has for him the fact that the megaliths left by the Atlantic people roughly cover the places he describes as being those described by Homer. It has often been suggested that the people of the megaliths were earlier and distinct from the Celts, who are desperate to come late from central Europe. No ancient author, however, uses this Celtic word to refer to anything other than the inhabitants of present-day France, and more broadly Belgium or northern Spain.

But the Nordic or even Arctic references, especially in the Odyssey, are difficult to deny. We have shown that the "zodiac", if it indicates fixed directions as navigators need, should not allow dating from one epoch or another. Aries must always point to the same direction. Which direction would indicate the different signs of the zodiac if the card of Vinci or Joramo were chosen in preference to that of Wilkens?

The appearance of two Sirens would signify the sign of Gemini. Ulysses then coming from the island of Circe and Hades all north, Gemini therefore means the south. Sagittarius, the opposite sign to Gemini, is then the North. The Archer being an equivalent of Sagittarius, the description of Odysseus as an archer on the island of Circe then means that this island is reached by going north from the land of the Laestrygons. This is exactly the proposition of Morten Alexander Joramo's card. It remains to attribute the west and the east to Pisces and Virgo. From Ogygie, which according to the two authors is located in the Faroe Islands, Ulysses sails eighteen days before arriving in Scheria where he meets the virgin Nausicaa on the beach. If Nausicaa symbolizes the sign of Virgo, Virgo is the west. Indeed, the authors map suggests a direction to the west between Ogygie and Scheria.

The appearance of a water and fish carrier in the Laestrygonian episode suggests an intermediate direction between Aquarius and Pisces. According to our now constituted directional zodiac, the direction is roughly east-northeast. This is roughly the direction to take from Aeolus Island, if it corresponds to an island in the Shetland Archipelago. All this remains approximate, however. If Homer wanted to make the Odyssey a nautical chart as Wilkens suggests, and this seems plausible, it must be borne in mind that no ancient or medieval map is as precise as our maps today constructed by satellite. Homer only offers twelve directions and distances in days, nothing that comes close to degrees of latitude or longitude.

Wilkens makes life a lot easier by offering multiple identities for different places. So Ulysses and Menelaus both cross Cape Malea on their way back from Troy, but one ends up in the land of the Lotophagi and the other in Egypt. Wilkens having made the first the Senegalese coast and the second Haute-Normandie, he can hardly justify a common path from England. It therefore offers two identities at Cap Malée: Saint-Malo and Cap Saint-Vincent in southern Spain. Likewise, it will offer two Pylos (in Andalusia and west of Germany), two Phrygia (Flanders and Scotland), three Thrace (in England, Finistère, Friesland), two Cnossos (in Boeotia) and in Crete), three Orchomenes (the Orkneys, the south of Sweden, Orchamps in the Doubs).

When the distances are not suitable, he suggests an allegory. Thus, from the land of the Lotophagi (Senegal), Ulysses could have returned to Ithaca (Cadiz) without difficulty, but he does not do it… because Homer has not finished describing his nautical chart. Ulysses takes only one night to go from Scheria (in the Canaries) to Ithaca (Cadiz)… to signify that his initiation is finished. But in this case his card is wrong.

However, I agree with Wilkens that the Odyssey is both a nautical chart and a story of initiation into the mysteries, which the Celtic druids would be at the origin. I myself have suggested this Celtic connection concerning the initiatory accounts of the gospels and the lives of the philosophers of Greece. There is an interdependence between the texts of the Greek philosophers and the Gospels, and each tradition separately has a connection to the Celts. Very many second-degree Gnostic gospels have been written in Greek, and a third gospel of Mark is said to have been revealed only orally. This corresponds to the rules of the Celtic mysteries. The bards must all write a book containing the teachings received and they wrote in Greek. The Druids, initiates of high rank, transmitted their teachings only orally.

On the other hand, Aristotle said that the Druids had been the teachers of Greece. Abaris the Celtic or the Hyperborean according to Hecataeus of Miletus would have been the teacher of Pythagoras. Thales, he would have learned from a Chaldean (Celtic?).

However the Gnostic gospels that we know of were found in the south and east of the Mediterranean, and Plato himself is very surprised at the geography and behavior of Homer's gods. So the mysteries were transmitted, but not the memory of the origin...

...Nordic.

As for religion, several classical authors assert that the Celts worshiped the gods under their Greek names, and that Greece would only have adopted the Celtic pantheon. This pantheon actually hid a fundamental monotheism. Zeus was God, and the other gods were only aspects of it, in the same way that we must understand the Egyptian pantheon, or the names of God in Sufism.

Zeus in particular was worshiped in the form of an oak tree. I note in passing that one of the old charts of the sky mentioning the planets published by Anatoli Fomenko mentions, instead of the Jupiter that one might expect, a planet called Louis. However, Saint-Louis is often represented dispensing his justice under an oak tree.

Wilkens believes that the texts of the bards would have been "translated" into Greek. In reality, everything shows that the Greek language is that of the Gauls. Thus Jean Espagnolle in _L'Origine du Français_ already quoted on this blog. It is believed that the Celts would have dominated Europe before the Romans, in the form of a confederation. It is also in the form of confederations that the Greeks are supposed to have known their apogee, thus the twelve cities of Athens. Another connection can also be proposed: that of the twelve cities of Athens and the twelve tribes of Israel. The Damascus Document, found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, specifies that it is not possible to become a member of the sect if one suffers from any infirmity. The identity of the sect in question is the subject of debate, one thinks among the most serious authors of a group of monotheistic warriors messianists, resulting from Judaism and precursors of what would become Islam.

Here too, we find ourselves confronted with this ambiguity: who are the Greeks? In view of the language, the Celts. In view of the stories of Plutarch, the Vikings.

However, as far as locations are concerned, Vinci's Scandinavian and Wilkens' Celtic hypotheses are not immediately compatible. It will be noted that the two authors formulate the hypothesis that all the peoples of a huge region of Europe would have chosen to migrate to a small country in the eastern Mediterranean to give the names of the places they had left to the newly conquered countries. I do not believe that Greece had such a power of attraction on wandering warriors. It will therefore be necessary to suggest another hypothesis on this subject.

My choice to make Achaeans Vikings of the Middle Ages solves both problems: the Vikings not only migrated to Byzantium and Greece, they raided all over Western Europe. The Celtic-Scandinavian connection therefore exists. It remains to turn it in the right direction. Posidonius claimed not to know how to navigate between the Celts and the Teutons. And the Germans are also very close to the Scandinavians, as we had shown. But Julius Caesar distinguishes much more clearly between Germans and Celts. The definition of Caesar is restricted: he calls the inhabitants of Gaul as far as Belgium Celts. These have druids and practice human sacrifices. No druids or such sacrifices among the Germans. Wilkens uses a much broader definition, similar to that of contemporary archaeologists: any civilization that has recourse to funeral urns is Celtic. So there are Celts in Denmark, Switzerland, Spain and even Morocco. But it is also the case of the peoples mentioned by Homer. And within the framework of a rapprochement of the peoples of the Iliad with European megalithism, Wilkens' proposals correspond better to the distribution of megaliths in Europe.

Wilkens quotes Posidonius: the population of Gaul is partly indigenous, partly coming from islands and lands beyond the Rhine, peoples driven out by their neighbors and by the sea. But he does not imagine that this story precisely reports the fate of the Achaean people. In the Odyssey, this is also what happened to the Pheacians when they still lived in Hypereia… which Wilkens does not place precisely beyond the Rhine, but in Africa. Driven by their Cyclops neighbors and the high tides, they would have decided to leave for more hospitable regions. Now all that is "hyper" in Greek authors designates the lands to the north, and Hypereia is probably a synonym for Hyperborea. The study of once submerged lands has generally concerned the lands of northern Europe and the Arctic. In fact, in the ship catalog, Wilkens locates another Hypereia in western Norway, which seems much more convincing.

Note that Scheria, the second homeland of the Pheacians after Hypereia, has many points in common with Atlantis as described by Plato, as Jürgen Spanuth noted in Atlantis of the North.


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## Mick Harper (May 11, 2022)

Did I miss something or has somebody explained why the city of Troyes in France is just down the road from the city of Paris, the Hero of Troy?


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## Silveryou (Nov 17, 2022)

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvKNRGahDsw&t=3037s_


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## dreamtime (Nov 17, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvKNRGahDsw&t=3037s_



When your job is to fake the history of humanity, but you are also pretty lazy


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## Silveryou (Nov 18, 2022)

dreamtime said:


> When your job is to fake the history of humanity, but you are also pretty lazy


I'm not sure it's fake. Here on sh everybody is on the conspiracy side without considering simple errors as a viable explanation, as Fomenko suggests (in a confusing way, to be fair) and this video based on recentist Sylvain Tristan's work confirms.


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## dreamtime (Nov 18, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> I'm not sure it's fake. Here on sh everybody is on the conspiracy side without considering simple errors as a viable explanation, as Fomenko suggests (in a confusing way, to be fair) and this video based on recentist Sylvain Tristan's work confirms.



Maybe, I just wanted to make a joke due to the similar name. I saw the suggestions in the video why this is the case. Individually, things are complex, but when you look at it from a larger perspective, there's the pattern of duplications.

Maybe Plato was his pseudonym to get things published. But even the argument that later historians duplicated Pletho and Plato accidentally, is suspicious in the context of endless amounts of duplicated scholars. So even if in this case, it was merely a convenient error, in most other cases it probably wasn't.

Actually, the similarity in names indeed suggests that it was an error, since you would expect history forgers to be less obvious. And in most other cases, they were indeed careful enough to use completely different names.


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## Silveryou (Nov 18, 2022)

dreamtime said:


> I just wanted to make a joke due to the similar name.


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