# The Earth was flat in medieval times



## dreamtime (Jun 25, 2021)

In this thread The earth was flat in medieval times - The Wild Heretic, wild heretic theorizes that the earth was flat until around 500 years ago, when it slowly moved into a concave form.




 

 


I just watched a video on the Silmarillion, which contains the entire mythology and cosmogony of the world created by J.R.R. Tolkien.

The Silmarillion has five parts. The first, Ainulindalë, tells of the creation of Eä, the "world that is." The second part, Valaquenta, gives a description of the Valar and Maiar, supernatural powers of Eä. The next section, Quenta Silmarillion, which forms the bulk of the collection, chronicles the history of the events before and during the First Age, including the wars over three jewels, the Silmarils, that gave the book its title. The fourth part, Akallabêth, relates the history of the Downfall of Númenor and its people, which takes place in the Second Age. The final part, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, is a brief account of the circumstances which led to and were presented in The Lord of the Rings. (wiki)​
Specifically I was watching a video about Númenor:

It was the kingdom occupying a large island to the west of Middle-earth, the main setting of Tolkien's writings, and was the greatest civilization of Men. However, after centuries of prosperity many of the inhabitants ceased to worship the One God, Eru Ilúvatar, and rebelled against the Valar, resulting in the destruction of the island and the death of most of its people. Tolkien intended Númenor to allude to the legendary Atlantis. Commentators have noted that the destruction of Númenor echoes the Biblical fall of man. (wiki)​​In which it was mentioned that during the second age after the Downfall of Númenor, the world was changed in a cataclysm: from a flat surface, to a round surface.

Interesting. I am quite certain that Tolkien tapped into a source of truth. His task was to rescue the old knowledge from disappearing during the times of world war 1, since this war cut humanity off it's roots. Through Tolkien's work, we were still able to connect to our own past, without actually realizing it's our own past. Maybe he also 'remembered' that the earth was once flat, but after the downfall of Atlantis, the 'gods' of this realm changed the structure of the surface from flat to round - but not round as a ball, but round as a hollow concave egg.

Another name for Númenor given by Tolkien is Atalante - the sunken land. Atlantis is old-germanic for "Alt-Land", which means "the old land". A region in northern Germany, near Hamburg, is still called "The Old Land" (Altes Land). And indeed, one early Atlantis-researcher put the sunken Atlantis exactly in this region (he was called Jürgen Spanuth). Heligoland is said to be the remains of Atlantis, and "Heligoland" means "The Holy Land".

Before the end of the Second Age, when the Men of Númenor rebelled against the Valar, Ilúvatar destroyed Númenor, separated Valinor from the rest of Arda, and *formed new lands, making the world round.* Only Endor remained of the original world, and Endor had now become Eurasia.​​The world, not including associated celestial bodies, was identified by Tolkien as "Ambar" in several texts, but also identified as "Imbar", the Habitation, in later post-_Lord of the Rings_ texts. From the time of the destruction of the two lamps until the time of the Downfall of Númenor, Ambar was supposed to be a "flat world", in that its habitable land-masses were all arranged on one side of the world. His sketches show a disk-like face for the world which looked up to the stars. A western continent, Aman, was the home of the Valar (and the Eldar). The middle lands, Endor, were called "Middle-earth" and the site of most of Tolkien's stories. The eastern continent was not inhabited.​
When Melkor poisoned the Two Trees of the Valar and fled from Aman back to Endor, *the Valar created the Sun and the Moon*, which were separate bodies (from Ambar) but still parts of Arda (the Realm of the Children of Ilúvatar). A few years after publishing _The Lord of the Rings_, in a note associated with the unique narrative story "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" (which is said to occur in Beleriand during the War of the Jewels), Tolkien equated Arda with the Solar System; because Arda by this point consisted of more than one heavenly body.​​According to the accounts in both _The Silmarillion_ and _The Lord of the Rings_, when Ar-Pharazôn invaded Aman to seize immortality from the Valar, they laid down their guardianship of the world and Ilúvatar intervened, destroying Númenor, removing Aman "from the circles of the world", and reshaping Ambar into the round world of today. _Akallabêth_ says that the Númenóreans who survived the Downfall sailed as far west as they could in search of their ancient home, but their travels only brought them around the world back to their starting points. Hence, before the end of the Second Age, *the transition from "flat earth" to "round earth" had been completed.*​​- source​​This also reminds me of the myths in esoteric circles that the moon is a relatively new phenomenon, and that the sun was different in ancient times.

In my view, @wild heretic is one of the few who have figured out how to combine both cosmology and history in a meaningful way. When I read his theory that the earth was actually flat until recently, and then changed into a concave form, a lot of things started to fall into place for me.


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## Will Scarlet (Jun 26, 2021)

This is very interesting. I have often believed that the subject of the Earth's true form and its relationship with celestial bodies is nowhere near as black & white as it's presented to is. All of the models that have been put forward are flawed in my view and are just not convincing.

I also came to the hypothesis long ago that the Sun and the Moon are very closely knit to our collective conscience and not necessarily physical bodies at all. Sounds nuts, I agree. Sounds nuts to me as well. I mentioned this some years ago on a FE forum and was either ignored or ridiculed, but then I heard it repeated back to me on a video by one of those FE 'celebrities last year.

I am researching for a post that has also led me to Tolkien, strangely enough. Its concept is somewhat similar, but embraces much more than the Earth's shape. Through Tolkien, my interpretation of the "cataclysm" began around the time of the 'voyages of discovery'. I also feel that it was not necessarily a physically destructive event in the material sense and that it continued over the ensuing centuries.

The result has been that the "old knowledge" has simply faded away and the reality we now inhabit is very very different to that of the Middle Ages.

Imo, Tolkien definitely knew what was going on, whether consciously or otherwise. The title of this thread doesn't really do it justice though.


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## freygeist (Jun 26, 2021)

Really amazing, so Númenor stands for Atlantis, might Aman/Valinor stand for Hyperborea/Thule (Asgard)? This could explain why we have Lands on the North Pole on older Maps, and on newer maps there is nothing, so the maps are accurate after all, and Hyperborea vanished after the transformation of the World.

I'm wondering myself the whole time, why this map shows the lands at the north pole fully mapped out:



​But this map shows it broken off/half disappeared at the southeast:



​And the smaller island south of the half-vanished land reads "gebroke land" so broken land.






Was Mercator trying to show the departure of Hyperborea?


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## Apollonius (Jun 26, 2021)

This could also be evidence that the Earth's shell could be the celestial sphere of another realm.

Here Cyrus Teed's other model:





As above, so below.


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## Myrrinda (Jun 26, 2021)

freygeist said:


> Really amazing, so Númenor stands for Atlantis, might Aman/Valinor stand for Hyperborea/Thule (Asgard)? This could explain why we have Lands on the North Pole on older Maps, and on newer maps there is nothing, so the maps are accurate after all, and Hyperborea vanished after the transformation of the World.
> 
> I'm wondering myself the whole time, why this map shows the lands at the north pole fully mapped out:
> 
> ...


The last one caught my eye, sorry my Latin is really almost non existent, "here live pygmys with long feet" - something.... - are these the Hobbits??


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## Jd755 (Jun 26, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> When I read his theory that the earth was actually flat until recently, and then changed into a concave form, a lot of things started to fall into place for me.


What have you done in the practical reality we experience to establish determine the likely veracity or lack of of this theory?
Edit to change 'establish' to 'determine'


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## dreamtime (Jul 31, 2021)

@wild heretic I translated your article into german: Die Erde war bis zum Mittelalter flach (added my thoughts on Tolkien, and some other things)

Then one of the biggest german alternative news sites copied it 1:1 (without asking me), but at least your theory got introduced to a larger audience now: Die Erde war im Mittelalter flach?



kd-755 said:


> What have you done in the practical reality we experience to establish determine the likely veracity or lack of of this theory?
> Edit to change 'establish' to 'determine'



I'm mostly concerned with thought experiments, and playing around with different concepts.

If you want to look into the empirical evidence for concave earth, look at the evidence @wild heretic has compiled at wildheretic.com


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## TheRimmer (Aug 25, 2021)

Myrrinda said:


> The last one caught my eye, sorry my Latin is really almost non existent, "here live pygmys with long feet" - something.... - are these the Hobbits??



Check this video out, 
_View: https://youtu.be/5IgFB6fg1GE_

 Robert Sepehr, he has some great content if you want to check out his channel.
Seems that there was a distinct race of dwarfs/little people who were chased to exile by "crain" like birds who would prey on them. A lot of them survived by fleeing and living amongs other civilizations.


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## Jd755 (Aug 25, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> I'm mostly concerned with thought experiments, and playing around with different concepts.


Oh well there it is, thank you anyway. 


dreamtime said:


> If you want to look into the empirical evidence for concave earth, look at the evidence @wild heretic has compiled at wildheretic.com


Empirical Evidence 

_I can't believe I hadn't seen this sooner. This is a major breakthrough in understanding for me, and hopefully for you too. This thought experiment or "theory" I am about to propose wraps up flat earth, bowl earth, concave earth, earth expansions and the Zoroastrian and Biblical creation story in one theory._


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## FarewellAngelina (Aug 25, 2021)

TheRimmer said:


> Check this video out,
> _View: https://youtu.be/5IgFB6fg1GE_
> 
> Robert Sepehr, he has some great content if you want to check out his channel.
> Seems that there was a distinct race of dwarfs/little people who were chased to exile by "crain" like birds who would prey on them. A lot of them survived by fleeing and living amongs other civilizations.



One of the books I am reading -The Sagas Of The Icelanders- has a  chapter on "The Vinland Sagas" . Vinland is believed to be somewhere on the West coast of USA.

In Eirik the Red's saga the tale recounts the attempts to settle in the area. Trade and battle with a race of people described as small of stature , broad cheeked with moon eyes and the land had vineyards and cultivated wheat fields aplenty. Fits in well with that video . 

Nice case of synchronicity there.


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## alnevo (Sep 12, 2021)

Myrrinda said:


> The last one caught my eye, sorry my Latin is really almost non existent, "here live pygmys with long feet" - something.... - are these the Hobbits??


According to my Latin, it says: "here live pygmys no taller that 4 feet in height at most", but, maybe I'm wrong.


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## dreamtime (Nov 12, 2021)

_This is the translation of a german article I wrote about this topic, and it contains some things I haven't written here before. It uses a lot of material from @wild heretic. I still need to optimize some parts of the translated text. The quotes are directly taken from the original english sources, when applicable._


*Preface*​
This text is largely based on the article "The Earth was Flat in Medieval Times". The premise is that the Earth in which we now live has a concave shape - that is, we live on the interior of a hollow sphere:




 



*A model of the concave earth - the celestial bodies are located in the center of the "universe" or the world egg. The light rays move curved on the basis of the magnetic lines.*​
This theory is known as "Concave Earth Theory", or "Inner World Theory" and was elaborated e.g. by the German physicist Johannes Lang and presented in his book "The Hollow World Theory" (German only).

The most prominent representative was Cyrus Teed (The cellular cosmogony, or, The earth, a concave sphere).


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OwyuJYBFSc_​


A short historical outline can be found here Verkehrte Welt (german article):

_Cyrus Teed, on the other hand, is less convinced by the world view of modern natural science, which becomes increasingly complex in the course of the 19th century. Even the universe is no longer what it once was: Neptune is discovered in 1848, the moons of Mars follow in 1877, and the invention of spectral analysis in 1859 makes it possible to determine the elements that make up the sun and distant stars. The universe is expanding._​​_Teed opposes this development and is on the search for another system. Chance comes to his aid. In 1869, during one of his strange experiments, an electric shock knocks him to the ground. While unconscious, he has a celestial apparition that gives him a world view diametrically different from that of astronomy._​​_According to this, we do not live on the surface of a full sphere, but on the inner surface of a hollow sphere. The roundness of the earth is not convex, but concave. But why did astronomers from Galileo Galilei to Wilhelm Herschel not notice this long ago? Quite simply, because they and other natural scientists assume a straight-line propagation of the light and a constant speed of light. However, if light rays propagate in an arc, i.e. if they are curved, the observer only gets the illusion of a fully spherical earth and an infinite universe. The true earth, however, proclaims the heavenly appearance, consists of numerous cells and spheres._​​_The ground under our feet is only 100 miles (161 kilometers) thick and consists of 17 metal and stone layers. Like an eggshell, it encloses the inner universe. The diameter of the hollow sphere is only 8000 miles (12,875 kilometers). There are three spheres: The first is the atmosphere on the Earth's surface, followed by a layer of hydrogen, and finally boron in the center._​​_Of course, there is a place for the sun in this celestial-centric worldview. "The sun is an invisible, electromagnetic energy source that revolves around itself in the center of the hollow sphere. Thereby the visible sun is only a reflection like the moon", Teed explains in his book "Cellular Cosmogony or the Earth as a Hollow Sphere", published in 1898. At an altitude of only 4500 kilometers, it stands firmly above the concave surface of the Earth and is correspondingly small._​​_Also the moon, the planets and stars are not real, but only reflections of the sunlight. Since the sun also has a dark side and rotates in a 24-hour rhythm, this world view also provides for day and night. For the seasons there are similar explanations. Even the gravitation finds its cause in the sun, it is special rays which go out from it and are reflected by the metal layers in the ground._​
Especially in Germany of the 20th century this theory was popular, and the leading minds in the 3rd Reich probably assumed behind closed doors that it corresponded to reality - even though in public research on the concave Earth was largely suppressed (Johannes Lang was persecuted by the National Socialists).

The consideration that the earth was flat in the past but is not so today also resolves some existing contradictions. For example, the religions and myths of the world are full of allusions to a flat earth - yet there is no empirical evidence for the flat earth today. Here the daring thesis shall be put forward that the earth was flat in our past, but it is no longer so today.


*The earth was flat in Medieval Times*​
The following thought experiment that I would like to present here combines the flat earth, the concave earth, the expanding earth (growing earth) as well as the Zoroastrian and biblical creation story in a single theory.

I have stumbled upon the Zoroastrian version of creation, which bears striking similarities to the earth model in the Greek Old Testament of the Bible. The only thing missing is the creation of the firmament (the Biblical firmament is a glass celestial firmament in my concave earth model). However, other parts of the myth are a bit more detailed and clear in the Zoroastrian version, such as that the earth was not created in 7 days, but that the creation process consisted of seven divine emanations. The whole process of creation itself is said to have lasted 3000 years. Also the water was not always present, but was created first.

So I have taken this Zoroastrian creation myth and simply inserted the biblical firmament or the glass firmament from my model.

Here now a short outline about the Zoroastrian version of the creation:

_According to Zoroastrian cosmology, the period of (material) creation, which was also to last 3,000 years, began after the treaty when Ohrmazd uttered the Ahunwar prayer, which revealed to Ahriman his final defeat and caused him to fall back into darkness in a sleep that lasted for the entire period of creation. During this time, Ohrmazd fashioned his creations in material form by celebrating a "spiritual yasna." He placed each creation under the protection of one of the seven emanations._​​_First he created the sky, which enclosed the world like an eggshell. The second creation was the water, which filled the lower half of the "egg". The third creation, the earth, had the shape of a flat disc and floated on the primordial water. On it stood the fourth, fifth and sixth creations, the single plant or tree, the uniquely created bull and the first man. The seventh creation, fire, is said to have permeated all other creations. During the 3,000 years of material creation, these creations were immobile, and the sun stood still in the center of the sky._​

The earliest maps I consider reliable are the Ebstorf and Hereford maps from 1200 and 1300 AD. Then the expanded, but still circular Fra Mauro map (1450 AD). I trust these three maps, that is, I generally consider them credible. All three show the Earth as a flat, circular disk (the Fra Mauro map perhaps less so, since Earth expansion and the process toward a concave Earth had probably already occurred by that time).





*Ebstorf map ca 1250*




*Hereford map ca 1300*





*Fra Mauro map ca 1450*​

So I drew the Zoroastrian "world egg" and imagined the medieval maps above as a flat earth disk. Basically, I'm just taking the Zoroastrian model (supplemented with the Biblical firmament) and the medieval maps literally - something that no one seems to have dared to do before.

It looks like this - with Jerusalem at the south pole (exactly in the center of the flat disk):






_If you take the Herford and Ebstorf maps literally, they show that the earth was flat. The chart shows what the world might have looked like at that time, if you take the Zoroastrian creation myth and the Bible literally._​

I think this flat earth disk in the world egg became a concave (inwardly curved) earth in the course of a cataclysm. The sun was in the upper hemisphere (not in the center of the concave cavity). Assuming it was the same sun and the same motion as in my concave earth theory (_note: The Wild Heretic – "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.", a similar theory can be found at Johannes Lang and at rolf-keppler.de_), it would have looked larger than it does today, and moved differently across the sky. Also the seasons and day and night lengths were different at the time of the flat earth.

Sometime between 1300 and 1450, the Earth's disk was pushed downward because the electromagnetic gravitational pressure of the Sun (note: gravity in my model is not a passive attraction of matter, but an electromagnetic thrust of the Sun) was always stronger than the pressure of the primordial water under the Earth. A spike or imbalance in solar pressure was enough to shift the Earth's disk and water into a shell shape. This process is indeed depicted on the historical maps. The first maps (Ebstorfer, Hereford) show a flat earth. Then, with the Fra Mauro map published later, the process of transformation of our Earth into a shell or concave shape begins.

In any case, the firmament bent as the Earth's disk curved. The firmament must have broken off from the edge of the shell as the Earth was pushed further and further down. So the rims shattered at some point. Perhaps Lybian desert glass is the shards of the broken firmament? Alternatively, there is also the possibility that the firmament is some kind of stretchable bio-membrane rather than solid glass.

In any case, the pressure had not yet equalized, and with each imbalance of the sun (in its cycle), the firmament, the earth's disk, and the primordial waters were pushed further down into the center of the concave earth. As they were pushed down, the Earth and the waters on the inside expanded around the egg, while the Sun naturally continued to sink toward the center of the cavity.




Martin Behaim's "Erdapfel" from 1492​
By 1492, the Atlantic and Indian Oceans had formed, albeit smaller than today. I suspect that by this time the Sun had pushed the Earth and water almost all the way around the egg to form the concave Earth. Because the Behaim map of 1492 shows the highest northern latitude at 85 degrees (I had to count them extra for that). The southernmost latitude is the Antarctic Circle at 66 degrees south latitude (I counted that too).




The Atlantic Ocean (and the Indian Ocean) were those parts of the Earth's flat disk that cracked (the weakest parts), which in turn caused cracks and fissures (we see these cracks on aerial photos, e.g. Google Maps) through which the water from below could fill the new ocean basin. Remember, the Earth's disk was pushed downward against the water, allowing the water to naturally seep through the weakest and thinnest part of the stretched Earth disk.

By the 1500s, the Earth was now completely wrapped around the World Shell, but still smaller than today's Earth. An article I have somewhere mentions that Mercator maps around 1500 depicted the earth about 9% (or was it 12 or 16%) smaller than today's current world maps. This is because the pressure between the sun and the water had not yet equalized.

The earth movements from 1500 to 1812 were caused by the pressure of the primordial ocean against the earth's shell. In some ways, these movements were perhaps the most dramatic because the earth and water could not now move easily within the shell due to the lack of space. The land must have pushed against itself while the oceans expanded a little. This could (and did) wipe out entire countries.

The circumference of the Earth still expanded because the water underneath was compressed into a smaller space, but nowhere near as much as before, and that's what we see. The difference between 1450 and 1492 and then around 1500 is absolutely huge, but between 1500 and 1812 it is smaller.

After 1812, the pressure between the sun and the primordial waters was largely balanced. There was still room for coastal change, and there was also the odd volcanic island that appeared out of nowhere, but there was no longer any real pronounced Earth expansion. By the 1950s, the pressure had leveled off to the point where the primordial waters no longer had room to move, so there were no longer any coastal changes or even small location changes.




The early maps transition from a flat to a convex bowl shape, becoming an inverted convex full sphere only in the 1840s and later. The mid-19th century seems to be the beginning of the mass satanic inversions (inversions) of everything. The hollow inner world became a convex planet - truth was inverted into its exact opposite.

One of the earliest fully concave maps I could find was published in 1607, one of the last in 1863.

This type of mapping is called a stereographic projection. Of note, it is commonly used in geology for accurate mapping of many geologic features, including analysis of folds, faults, and fractures. According to Wikipedia, the method was developed in the early 16th century.

The image of the Earth in the form of a convex sphere is called a homalographic projection. It was invented much later, in the early 19th century, but was not popularized until 1857 by Jacques Babinet. Its angles and shapes are inaccurate, but the area proportions are correct (relative size). One of the earliest maps I could find on this type of projection was published in 1846.

The most interesting thing about it is that between the Hereford map (ca early 1300) and the Mercator maps of the 1540s and later, the Earth is always drawn as a partial sphere, *like a bowl*. This is exactly what is to be expected during the transition period when the Earth changes from a flat to a round shape.

Here are some of them, some are partial spheres, some are three-quarter spheres. The main dates are perhaps a bit dubious chronologically, but you can get an idea of the rough idea of the transformation from flat to bowl-shaped to concave.




*Ptolemy Cosmographia 1467*​

_Ptolemy (c.100-178) was a hugely important geographer and astronomer working in Ancient Rome. This map takes valuable information from his famous book Geographia. His work informed mapmakers on the size of the Earth, and the co-ordinates for the positions of all the places and features indicated on the map._​​_Until a copy of Geographia was translated from Greek into Latin in 1407, all knowledge of these co-ordinates had been lost in the West. The book created a sensation, as it challenged the very basis of medieval mapmaking – mapmakers before this had based the proportions of countries, not on mathematical calculations, but on the importance of different places - the more important a country was, the bigger it appeared on the map. In fact, many of Ptolemy’s calculations were later proved to be incorrect. However, the introduction of mathematics and the idea of accurate measurement were to change the nature of European mapmaking forever. This copy of Ptolemy's World Map was produced slightly later, in 1482._​
*Source: Ptolemy's World Map*​
On this map, the Earth is a bowl - the latitudes flatten out at above 62 degrees and below 24 degrees.




 


*1488 - Henricus Martellus Germanu*​
This map was made by a German cartographer living in Florence and reflected the latest theories about the shape of the world and the most accurate ways to represent it on a flat surface.





*1511 - Venetian edition of Ptolemy's Geographica.*​
I could not clearly see the latitudes on this 1511 world map. I would need a higher resolution for that. I think it's still a maximum of 60 degrees south latitude here.

The first time I see continuous 90 degrees on a map is Maercator's 1540 map, which is drawn as a convex globe:




I really think I'm onto something big here. What I'm looking for is weather and seasonal observations, including the sky during the day and night before 1570. Maybe we can also work together to figure out how the sun worked in terms of its altitude, etc. on a flat disk Earth. If anyone has any clues from old books, please post in this thread as a reply. Thanks a lot!


*Flat earth in mythology*​
The mythology and cosmogony of the world created by J.R.R. Tolkien also contains in code this process of transforming the flat earth into a concave earth:

_The Silmarillion has five parts. The first, Ainulindalë, tells of the creation of Eä, the "world that is." The second part, Valaquenta, gives a description of the Valar and Maiar, supernatural powers of Eä. The next section, Quenta Silmarillion, which forms the bulk of the collection, chronicles the history of the events before and during the First Age, including the wars over three jewels, the Silmarils, that gave the book its title. The fourth part, Akallabêth, relates the history of the Downfall of Númenor and its people, which takes place in the Second Age. The final part, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, is a brief account of the circumstances which led to and were presented in The Lord of the Rings._​​_Númenor was the kingdom occupying a large island to the west of Middle-earth, the main setting of Tolkien's writings, and was the greatest civilization of Men. However, after centuries of prosperity many of the inhabitants ceased to worship the One God, Eru Ilúvatar, and rebelled against the Valar, resulting in the destruction of the island and the death of most of its people. Tolkien intended Númenor to allude to the legendary Atlantis. Commentators have noted that the destruction of Númenor echoes the Biblical fall of man. (Wikipedia)_​
It mentioned that in the Second Age, after the fall of Númenor, the world changed by a cataclysm: from "flat" to "round."

_Before the end of the Second Age, when the Men of Númenor rebelled against the Valar, Ilúvatar destroyed Númenor, separated Aman from the rest of Arda, and formed new lands, making the world round. Only Endor remained of the original world, and Endor had now become Eurasia._​​_The world, not including associated celestial bodies, was identified by Tolkien as "Ambar" in several texts, but also identified as "Imbar", the Habitation, in later post-Lord of the Rings texts. From the time of the destruction of the two lamps until the time of the Downfall of Númenor, Ambar was supposed to be a "flat world", in that its habitable land-masses were all arranged on one side of the world. His sketches show a disk-like face for the world which looked up to the stars. A western continent, Aman, was the home of the Valar (and the Eldar). The middle lands, Endor, were called "Middle-earth" and the site of most of Tolkien's stories. The eastern continent was not inhabited._​​_When Melkor poisoned the Two Trees of the Valar and fled from Aman back to Endor, the Valar created the Sun and the Moon, which were separate bodies (from Ambar) but still parts of Arda (the Realm of the Children of Ilúvatar). A few years after publishing The Lord of the Rings, in a note associated with the unique narrative story "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" (which is said to occur in Beleriand during the War of the Jewels), Tolkien equated Arda with the Solar System; because Arda by this point consisted of more than one heavenly body._​​_According to the accounts in both The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings, when Ar-Pharazôn invaded Aman to seize immortality from the Valar, they laid down their guardianship of the world and Ilúvatar intervened, destroying Númenor, removing Aman "from the circles of the world", and reshaping Ambar into the round world of today. Akallabêth says that the Númenóreans who survived the Downfall sailed as far west as they could in search of their ancient home, but their travels either brought them to new lands or back around the world back to their starting points. Hence, before the end of the Second Age, the transition from "flat earth" to "round earth" had been completed._​​_- Source_​
I am pretty sure that Tolkien had a special connection to the Source. His task was to save the ancient knowledge from oblivion before the time of the First World War, as this war cut humanity off from its roots. Through Tolkien's work, we were still able to connect to our own past without really being aware of it. Perhaps he "remembered" that the earth was once flat.

Another name used by Tolkien for Númenor is Atalante - the sunken land. Atlantis is Old Norse or Old German for "Alt-Land", which means "the old land". A region in northern Germany, near Hamburg, is still called "Old Land". And indeed, an early Atlantis researcher located the sunken Atlantis exactly in this region (Jürgen Spanuth). Helgoland is said to be the remnant of Atlantis, and "Helgoland" means "The Holy Land".

This also reminds me of the myths in esoteric circles like the Russian mystic G.I. Gurdjieff that the moon did not exist long ago and that the sun in the old times also had different properties, looked different and moved differently in the sky.


*The expanding earth and the world egg*




*The earth as an opening flower, drawn by S.W. Carey - a metaphor for the process of awakening?*​
S. Warren Carey developed the theory of the expanding Earth as well as the theory of plate tectonics based on Alfred Wegener's ideas of continental drift.

Biochemist Dr. Ray Peat comments on Carey and the spiritual implications of his theory:

_But beyond the geological or cosmological issues, the expanding Earth is a rich metaphor. The nature of star energy and the origin of life are not remote or abstract issues when we begin to feel the earth swelling beneath and around us. [...]_​​_Although the "dead matter" theorists now dominate education, research, and medicine, and control so many other systems that the world is objectively in decline (toxins, radiation, deforestation, malnutrition, shrinking brains, species extinction), techniques are now available to repair much of the damage and chart an upward course. The repair and realignment begins with a system of passive constraints - a "mundane shell." The only thing that can resist the constructive, organizing flow of energy is the absorbing, entropic principle of disorganization, and as William Blake pointed out, there is a limit to contraction but no limit to expansion._​
William Blake despised the notion of a dead universe as promoted by modern physics:

_"The idea of a 'biological cosmos' seems strange only when juxtaposed with an ideology that asserts that life on Earth is alone in an immeasurable, dead universe." The assumption of a dead, unintelligent, randomly moving physical world is the creation of a set of theological ideas that Blake found to be essentially satanic. Blake showed how language was used to obscure reality and impose a perverted way of life on the living world._​
*Source*: Can art instruct science? William Blake as biological visionary and other writings by Ray Peat​
Then we can next ask if there are esoteric concepts about a growing earth, and yes, there are.

The following image is by William Blake and is based on esoteric Christianity (Milton's Paradise Lost, among other sources)




*"At length for hatching ripe he breaks the shell" from The Gates of Paradise, William Blake 1793.*​
But how can a planet expand? According to conventional physics, it can't.

The world egg and breaking out of the shell only make sense if we live in a hollow, concave Earth that actually expands, literally like a balloon expands.

Blake was describing actual reality, it was not a metaphor. We live in the mundane shell, the world egg described in many mythologies, which is a barrier between external reality and the illusion we live in.

In one poem, Blake mentions the concave earth:


_"The Mundane Shell, is a vast Concave Earth: an immense
Hardend shadow of all things upon our Vegetated Earth
Enlarg'd into dimension & deform'd into indefinite space,
In Twenty-seven Heavens and all their Hells; with Chaos
And Ancient Night; & Purgatory. It is a cavernous Earth
Of labyrinthine intricacy, twenty-seven folds of opakeness
And finishes where the lark mounts; here Milton journeyed
In that Region calld Midian among the Rocks of Horeb
For travellers from Eternity. pass outward to Satans seat,
But travellers to Eternity. pass inward to Golgonooza."_

*[The mundane shell]. Excerpts from "Milton." William Blake. 1908. The Poetical Works.*​
The cosmic egg is a mythological motif found in cosmogonies throughout the world. In modern cosmology it makes no sense, for how can the world be an egg if space is infinite? It can't. But heliocentrism is a big lie.




In Vedic mythology, this shell that surrounds us is called the "golden fetus" or "golden womb." The snake around the egg comes from Greek mythology. In Egyptian mythology, all life comes from the cosmic egg. The concept of the world egg also gives us a clue to what is behind Blake's "contractive force": the serpent, which is a metaphor for the lizard-like creatures that feed on us.

There are no galaxies, no solar systems, no planets, no endless universe.

The growing earth theory has been unanimously and unceremoniously taken apart argumentatively by mainstream scientists: It does not make the slightest sense that a planet spinning in an empty universe would grow (basically, according to the rules of physics, a planet cannot grow matter. But this would be necessary for the earth to actually grow within a heliocentric model).

Something like an "expanding Earth" (Pangea), as the basis for the formation of the oceans and modern continents, only makes sense in a world where things are inverted compared to the mainstream model (Concave Earth).

At some point we will have to accept that without a reasonable cosmological model, no one can reasonably explain the entire true historical and spiritual context of humanity. *Life on a spinning globe hurtling through an empty universe is a conceptual dead end, but it is the perfect metaphor for our inner emptiness and sense of separateness from creation. Anyone who believes in the heliocentric model without any doubt is, to a large extent, trapped in darkness.*

The foundation for a future worth living is to break through the amnesia, to reconnect with our past.

In other words: We must become fully human, reclaim the earth as our home, and drive out the parasitic forces that feed on us.

The evolution of humankind obviously goes through several stages, and the way the earth changes is connected to these different ages. This is related to the historical significance of calendars and astronomical constellations:


Edenic state
The Fall, Paradise Lost (contractive, sense of separation, primordial cataclysm separating humanity from natural life).
Stagnation and recovery (current state, growing out of collective trauma and amnesia, conflict between contraction and expansion)
Awakening (expanding, conscious memory of the entire human past, dissolution of amnesia, full reconnection with history, with oneself and with reality outside the material plane of this concave Earth).

It is possible that we are facing a strongly contractive event that will force us to get in touch with ourselves, leading to death or forced awakening. The birth of a human being is a sudden, traumatic and concrative event, and perhaps something similar is in store for humanity.


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## Akanah (Nov 15, 2021)

Yes, earth could have been flat in medieval times... also when I think earth today is embryonic. The reason for this thinking is the flatform of the ancient mysterious island "Atlantis" with three water-rings. I believe Atlantis could have been the flat earth-ovum. In the center of Atlantis there was the cell-core. In the middle there was the egg-cell-membran and on the outline there was the follicle wall. The sinking of Atlantis is logically connected with the flood as fertilization. And after the sinking of Atlantis earth became concave and embryonic.


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## dreamtime (Dec 26, 2021)

dreamtime said:


> Perhaps Lybian desert glass is the shards of the broken firmament? Alternatively, there is also the possibility that the firmament is some kind of stretchable bio-membrane rather than solid glass.



These guys expand on the above hypothesis:


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JaSpEAUAnM_

I think glass doesn't make a lot of sense when it comes to the firmament, it would shatter too easy, that why I originally speculated it to be a bio-membrane. It seems Charles Fort had already postulated this long before.

The video also briefly touches on Blake's comment about humanity hatching and "breaking the shell".


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## WITT (Dec 26, 2021)

Ok this topic has me so much on the fence. All the information I just received has my head spinning. Now this may seem a stupid question (lord knows I've been called worse), why was a level invented if we are on a ball?


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## Shadow11 (May 19, 2022)

dreamtime said:


> These guys expand on the above hypothesis:
> 
> 
> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JaSpEAUAnM_
> ...



That's interesting that you say bio membrane. I had read someone else also associate well flat earth (not concave) like a cell the firmament a barrier. Each cell has a barrier to protect environments some had natural passages where environments were similar or under water and some had portals.

(This is a new map and book floating around under a price wall) credibility is low. It's also in a different language for me. But from what I found in a video that had English subtitles- this guy got his information through email but it was deleted and he wrote what he could remember. A lot of effort to turn it into a book and map. But this is also how I learned about tartar and a great war and began searching for that in OUR history. Because this "book" is from a POV outside the wall and before the reset.


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## dreamtime (May 27, 2022)

In English, the Mediterranean Sea was also called the Sea of Middle Earth; for example, John Trevisa wrote in his 1397 translation of De Proprietatibus Rerum (On the Properties of Things - c. 1240) by Bartholomaeus Anglicus:



> *The great sea of middle earth* comes out of the West and out of the ocean […] And is called sea of the middle earth because it passes by the middle of the earth as far as to the East.



Source

you can also find this description (middle land sea) on the map of the turkish empire in my recent thread.





I am convinced that Tolkien's "fantasy" world consists of memories of the ancient world and describes our history and place in the world.

This terminology also suggests a stationary, enclosed earth.


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## Quiahuitl (May 27, 2022)

Tolkien was professor of English at Oxford university and thus had access to the Bodleian library which has the biggest collection of old manuscripts in England. Most people aren't allowed to read those.  I've always thought he must have drawn on those sources.

He stated explicitly that he was trying to create a set of myths for a culture that didn't seem to have its own.


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## soleilbelmont (Jul 27, 2022)

dreamtime said:


> In English, the Mediterranean Sea was also called the Sea of Middle Earth;



The 1611 King James Bible had that on their map. The following image is from https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02666286.2013.798092





In the Geneva Bible, first published 1560, it is called the Sea Mediterran (medi terran, middle earth). (I didn't put the red circle on the map.)



The above link doesn't show it's from the Geneva Bible, but the link below does. Its map is a bad copy.
The Geneva Bible's Map of Palestine



Perhaps the name Medes is also related to middle earth.




A few observations on the Geneva Bible map. 

The Sea Hircan for the Caspian Sea. The Sea Persike for the Persian Gulf. The Sea Pontike for the Black Sea.


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## Udjat (Jul 28, 2022)

They say that when looking at the Milky Way it looks like a flat disc shape?  I wonder if that is indicative of the planets that are contained within it?


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## Frits (Jul 29, 2022)

I don't think the earth is flat nor that it is round. According to Viktor Schauberger you have to look at the earth as being an apple; that's why pilots are not allowed to fly over the poles. The theory of earth being a part of a bubble within the universe (cell-structure) is interesting cause I think that the universe is not a vacuum, but that it behaves like an upper state of water. And water is the source of recording and transmitting information; it has a memory. The universe is filled with information.


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## Udjat (Jul 30, 2022)

There is an author by the name of R. Pilotte that wrote a book that uses a sort of  bubble theory also.  He says that it was this way before the great flood, but what I find interesting is that you mentioned like a "cell structure".  That made me think right away of this author.  I am very interested in that perspective because it seems more of an organic approach, it being alive and all.   


Frits said:


> I don't think the earth is flat nor that it is round. According to Viktor Schauberger you have to look at the earth as being an apple; that's why pilots are not allowed to fly over the poles. The theory of earth being a part of a bubble within the universe (cell-structure) is interesting cause I think that the universe is not a vacuum, but that it behaves like an upper state of water. And water is the source of recording and transmitting information; it has a memory. The universe is filled with information.


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## inthefade (Jul 30, 2022)

Frits said:


> I don't think the earth is flat nor that it is round. According to Viktor Schauberger you have to look at the earth as being an apple; that's why pilots are not allowed to fly over the poles. The theory of earth being a part of a bubble within the universe (cell-structure) is interesting cause I think that the universe is not a vacuum, but that it behaves like an upper state of water. And water is the source of recording and transmitting information; it has a memory. The universe is filled with information.


That still implies a curve. There is no observable curve. Unless you're implying something like this, with the north pole being a hole into the "inner":


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## Frits (Jul 30, 2022)

inthefade said:


> That still implies a curve. There is no observable curve. Unless you're implying something like this, with the north pole being a hole into the "inner":
> 
> View attachment 24341





Without the leave


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## inthefade (Jul 31, 2022)

Frits said:


> View attachment 24349
> Without the leave


But where's the curve?


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