# Charlemagne the Chamberlain



## Silveryou (Jul 29, 2021)

I've stumbled upon some very interesting medieval pictures from the city of Siena, Tuscany. Here below just a few. The others on a dedicated archive (http://www.archiviodistato.siena.it/museobiccherne/it/5/home).






















These images on wood were the covers of the accounting books of the so-called _*biccherna*_ (Biccherna - Wikipedia), the magistrate or chancellery of finance. The word seems to derive from the Palace of Blachernae in Constantinople (Palace of Blachernae - Wikipedia), which guarded the imperial treasure and various important 'christian sacred relics'.

It is frequent to see these covers beginning with: "LIBRO DE L’ENTRATA E DE L’ESCITA DE LA BICCHERNA", roughly "BOOK OF THE INCOME AND EXPENSES OF THE *BICCHERNA*".
Strangely enough though, from time to time (like in the images above) you can find something slightly different: "LIBRO DE L’ENTRATA E DE L’ESCITA/DELLA GIENERALE CHABELLA", roughly ""BOOK OF THE INCOME AND EXPENSES OF THE *CHABELLA*".

Chabella! What was the chabella (or gabella, or kabella)? It was obviously another kind of institution related to the magistrate or chancellery of finance. Cannot explain the exact difference. What is important is that the *gabelle *(Gabelle - Wikipedia) was in any case "a very unpopular tax on salt in France that was established during the mid-14th century and lasted, with brief lapses and revisions, until 1946. The term _gabelle_ is derived from the Italian _*gabella*_* (a duty)*, itself originating from the Arabic word *قَبَلَ (qabala, "he received")*". And again: "Because the _gabelle_ affected all French citizens (for use in cooking, for preserving food, for making cheese, and for raising livestock) and propagated extreme regional disparities in salt prices, the salt tax _stood as one of the most hated and grossly unequal forms of revenue generation in the country's history_".

The covers shown in the archive sometimes call the officials '_*iudices*_' (litteraly _judges_)... It's clear from the images above and the parallel to the Palace of Blachernae that they used religious imagery while they _served_... mmmmmhhhh iudices practicing the chabella, hated by people throughout France for their activities... mmmmmmhhhhhh maybe Jews practicing the Kabal? Who knows!

The head of the biccherna was the chamberlain, whose name derived from "the Old French _chamberlain, chamberlenc_, Modern French _chambellan_, from Old High German _Chamarling, Chamarlinc_, whence also the Medieval Latin _cambellanus, camerlingus, camerlengus_; Italian _camerlingo_; Spanish _camerlengo_, compounded of Old High German _Chamara, Kamara_ [Latin _camera_, “chamber”], and the German suffix _-ling" _(Chamberlain (office) - Wikipedia). The 'CHAMARLENGHO' (this is how it is written in the picture below), was the "*chamber attendant*" (generally understood "of the treasury" and "of the sovereign") (Ciambellano - Wikipedia - in Italian).



mmmmmmmhhhhh! *CHAMARLENGHO!!!!!!*
I have heard in the past of a certain dude who was Mayor of the Palace (Mayor of the palace - Wikipedia), or majordomo (*manager of the household*) of some Frankish King... What was his name? Pipan? Peppin? Oh yeah, Pepin! (Pepin the Short - Wikipedia)
He had a son. What was his name? mumble mumble oh yeah *CHARLEMAGNE!!!!! *(Charlemagne - Wikipedia)
This guy was apparently crowned by a very important dude called Pope, the sovereign of Latin christianity, and in his career accomplished some important reforms. One of those was the institution of "_principles for accounting practice_" (Charlemagne - Wikipedia).

Isn't it strange that the Chamarlengho(s) and Charlemagne had the same interests?

The late Roman Empire and 'Byzantine' Empire had their chamberlain too. It was the *cubicularius (κουβικουλάριος) *(Cubicularius - Wikipedia): "The term derives from their service in the _sacrum cubiculum_, the emperor's "sacred bedchamber".

Added observation by @fabiorem: "the chamberlain is equivalent to the huskarl, or *house karl*. The term karl (before it became a name) was used to mean a clerk, and also a bodyguard. Charles is a variant of Karl, hence charlemagne = chamberlain = huskarl".
"A *housecarl* (Old Norse: _húskarl_, Old English: _huscarl_) was a non-servile manservant or household bodyguard in medieval Northern Europe" (Housecarl - Wikipedia)

chabella - cubiculum - kabal
chamarlengo - charlemagne
chamberlain-majordomo-cubicularius-housecarl
What are we talking about?


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## Bitbybit (Jul 31, 2021)

Just a thought. I dont know if the tax on salt was the only or dominant tax. But if so, the word "chabella" (if it meant tax) could perhaps in reality have become synonym for the "salt tax" among the people.

Regarding charmalengo - charlemagne i am not so sure.
-In swedish both Karl and Magnus are common names. 
-The swedish word Karl was (at least in 1700-1900)  often used meaning a man with certain responsibility. example: huskarl, hästkarl, "kammarkarl" (= Chamberclerk) was a financial clerk in the swedish governement chamber around 1700s..
-Magnus is said to be Latin for "the great". Example "Carolus Magnus Rex"

if chamerlengo is somehow connected to charlemagne doesnt that mean that CHAMBER is mixed up with MAGNUS (?)
Unless of course "Charlemagne" never was the same as "Carolus Magnus"


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## Will Scarlet (Jul 31, 2021)

"Chabella" in Spanish is an affectionate nickname for Isabel. Also Charlemagne is 'Carlomagno'.

There's an awful lot about Charlemagne that doesn't make sense. I thought I read a comment here saying that he was a fictitious character, but now it's gone...? Imo, that's a great way to hide something (not the comment)  - make it fictitious.


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## Silveryou (Jul 31, 2021)

Bitbybit said:


> Regarding charmalengo - charlemagne i am not so sure.





Will Scarlet said:


> I thought I read a comment here saying that he was a fictitious character, but now it's gone...? Imo, that's a great way to hide something (not the comment) - make it fictitious.


Just to be clear, I don't think that the character named Charlemagne never existed and we should trash everything related to him. I just wanted to underline the strange similarity of names and the even more strange (partial) equivalence in their actions. The fact that a man whose name is Charlemagne reforms the "principles of accounting practice" (chamberlains' job) sounds to me as if Mr. Bananus discovered bananas for the first time.


Bitbybit said:


> -In swedish both Karl and Magnus are common names.
> -The swedish word Karl was (at least in 1700-1900) often used meaning a man with certain responsibility. example: huskarl, hästkarl, "kammarkarl" (= Chamberclerk) was a financial clerk in the swedish governement chamber around 1700s..
> -Magnus is said to be Latin for "the great". Example "Carolus Magnus Rex"
> 
> ...


According to medieval lore/history, Charlemagne was a crusader, not allegoricaly but as a matter of fact. He was protagonist of tales such as the stopping of the sun, in a manner identical or parallel to the biblical story of Joshua. He had twelve paladins like the twelve spies sent by Moses to Canaan and the (possibly) twelve knights of King Arthur.

But in fact here I was delving into names alone. It's very interesting that Karl and Magnus are both swedish names, and it's also interesting their ending in -us, since Charlemagne was the one who supposedly revived the Roman Empire.
And yes, the main thing here is the strange recurrence of 'chambers'. I always found awkward that in Anna Comnena's Alexiad one of the main titles was 'protovestiarios', relating one of the most important offices to the wardrobe of the autocrat! But here we see that chamberlain, chamarlengho, majordomo, cubicularius and housecarl have all the same meaning.

By the way, the word cubicolo in Italian means 'little room'. Isn't it strange that the Latin/Greek cubicularius (κουβικουλάριος) seems at first glance to be a composite of the words _cubicula _and _lares_? The Lares (Lares - Wikipedia) were considered protectors, guardian deities and _household gods_ in 'Roman' religion. So again the protector theme. In fact Charlemagne was without a doubt considered the protector of Christianity against the infidels on behalf of the Roman Pope.


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## UgricMongol (Jul 31, 2021)

Edit: my first post. Been lurking for a year now.

Some Hungarian non mainstream historian entertains the theory that Charlemagne is a sanitised western version of Attila the Hun - who, of course , was no barbarian at all. At the same time this guy (and more Hungarians) think that a 300 years of middle ages were never there. Hungarian written history gains much more coherence when this is indeed true.

Hungarian history is one of the written histories that needed erasing in order to fit the narrative.


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## Silveryou (Jul 31, 2021)

UgricMongol said:


> Edit: my first post. Been lurking for a year now.
> 
> Some Hungarian non mainstream historian entertains the theory that Charlemagne is a sanitised western version of Attila the Hun - who, of course , was no barbarian at all. At the same time this guy (and more Hungarians) think that a 300 years of middle ages were never there. Hungarian written history gains much more coherence when this is indeed true.
> 
> Hungarian history is one of the written histories that needed erasing in order to fit the narrative.


Welcome.

I've read Hungarian reconstructions in the past but I can't find the links to them anymore. If you know where I can read about them (in English) please share the links. If you can find only in hungarian I'll try to read them translated.

At first glance I would say that Charlemagne and Attila are not the same, but if you provide some links I would be curious to read about it. A more fitting (for me) equivalence is that between Attila and Totila, both 'Flagellum Dei', Scourge of God. I have also found a curious historical parallel by superimposing two segments of our chronology by an established amount of time, but I will eventually talk about that in another thread.


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## UgricMongol (Jul 31, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> Welcome.
> 
> I've read Hungarian reconstructions in the past but I can't find the links to them anymore. If you know where I can read about them (in English) please share the links. If you can find only in hungarian I'll try to read them translated.
> 
> At first glance I would say that Charlemagne and Attila are not the same, but if you provide some links I would be curious to read about it. A more fitting (for me) equivalence is that between Attila and Totila, both 'Flagellum Dei', Scourge of God. I have also found a curious historical parallel by superimposing two segments of our chronology by an established amount of time, but I will eventually talk about that in another thread.


His name is Toth Gyula, his main thesis is called "the invented middle ages" (a kitalált középkor).

English (or non-Hungarian) sources are scarce. I found an English subtitled video of his in typical boring Hungarian style, so you'll have to endure 2 hours of it:



Maybe much of a stretch for uninitiated readers, but it does very much fit in the much broader framework of Hungarian historical sources which in the west are either unknown or dismissed as "not in line with Herodotus and therefore nonsense"
_View: https://youtu.be/wgGFqfgqEaU_


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## Silveryou (Jul 31, 2021)

Precisely him. I read something some years ago because he is part of the 'Velikovskian school', but then I 'lost' the link. Thank you


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## UgricMongol (Aug 1, 2021)

And thank you too. Looking forward to your chronology thread.


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## Alexandra (Aug 1, 2021)

I don't understand where "_camer_" decided to show up in Latin language as "room" because "room" is _locus _and "chamber" is _cubiculum.

Lingus_ seems like "language" so that is understandable related to money:  _"in the early 17th century, the scriveners (who can read and write) were the first to keep deposits for the express purpose of relending them"
_


Silveryou said:


> CHARLEMAGNE


I didn't know that the English gave him the French sounding name Charlemagne instead of Charles or Carolus the great.

He was not the founder of the Carolingus dynasty, that was Charles the Majordomo...

_Caro_ means to care, a treasure, but also czar and flesh, as in sinful flesh in the bible.

Hmmm  _Carolingo - Camerlengo_?

_Charlemagne__, in 800 AD, implemented a series of reforms upon becoming "Holy Roman Emperor", including the issuance of a standard coin, the silver penny._

History of money. 

It is all too much coincidence.


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## Silveryou (Aug 1, 2021)

Alexandra said:


> I don't understand where "_camer_" decided to show up in Latin language as "room" because "room" is _locus _and "chamber" is _cubiculum._


It seems _camera _meant something like "vaulted ceiling of a room" in Latin.


Alexandra said:


> _Lingus_ seems like "language" so that is understandable related to money: _"in the early 17th century, the scriveners (who can read and write) were the first to keep deposits for the express purpose of relending them"_


It seems to be a better explanation than the generic "German suffix _-ling" _given in the wiki (Chamberlain (office) - Wikipedia).
The Italian wiki says (translated): "The title of '_camerlengo_' derives from the medieval Latin _camarlingus_, in turn corruption, starting from the Frankish _kamerling_, of the Latin _camerarius_, with the meaning of 'room attendant' (generally understood 'of the treasure' and 'of the sovereign'). The meaning of the title and the function are in part comparable with those of the _cubicularius _in the late Roman Empire, in the Byzantine Empire and in the Pontifical Court. In Anglo-Saxon languages the title takes the form of _chamberlain_, a word that derives from the French _chambellan_, hence the Italian '_ciambellano'_". (Ciambellano - Wikipedia)
So in all languages seems to be a composite of the words _room _and -_lengo, -lingus, -ling, -larius (or -rarius), -lain, -llan, -llano.
Karl_ in particular sounds as a syntesis of the two words in reduced form.


Alexandra said:


> It is all too much coincidence.


Indeed. Don't forget that chamarlanghos administered the biccherna and the chabella. I'm going to read these wooden tables one by one to see if something interesting comes out


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## Jd755 (Aug 1, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> It seems _camera _meant something like "vaulted ceiling of a room" in Latin.


Hearings in Private (‘In Camera’) | The Crown Prosecution Service


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## Alexandra (Aug 1, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> cubicularius


"The term derives from their service in the sacrum cubiculum, the emperor's "sacred bedchamber". 

O well here you go. Off course I don't believe the _sacret bedroom_ story.
....
And all the words in one picture:
Writing, a box, the words majordomo, kamerlengo, biccherna,...


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## Alexandra (Aug 3, 2021)

I found more ... 


_"The aristocratic families in Siena date their line to the Lombards' surrender in 774 to *Charlemagne*.
Siena prospered as a city-state, becoming a major centre of *money lending *_
(Dutch wiki* The nearby silver mines made Siena an important European financial center.*"

Italian wiki:

_"Conventionally 1186 is indicated as the year of the official recognition of the new State by the Holy Roman Empire, the year in which the Emperor Frederick Barbarossa granted the possibility of minting coins"_

Family and titel Viscount (Italian family Visconti)

_"The surname of the family derives from the Latin vice comitis, which means "in the stead of the counts", that is "viceconti", from the Latin vice 'Instead of' and 'conte' (originally 'companion, associate'), an expression that indicated a vassal and companion in arms of the king or emperor, in this case the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire"

"Similar to the Carolingian use of the title, the Norman viscounts were local administrators, working on behalf of the Duke. Their role was to administer justice and to collect taxes"_


"Count" is according to English wiki from "county" but Italian wiki tells us:

*"Conte*_ is a noble title , widespread in Europe , higher than the title of viscount and lower than that of marquis . In the Carolingian period the title was used to indicate generically a civil servant in the role of civil governor of a territory, in fact, in the sources is not uncommon to find referred to as aristocrats counts who were entrusted with the control of brands or *ducats* "_

Duke in Italian = _Ducato_. The Golden coin.
I start to understand why the Vatican is so secret; they had a lot of money to _count_ at that time.  Where is it?


Another slip of my brain: did you also notice that the cabal "Tree of life" very much looks like a temple with 10 coins? 

_The cabal tree is named_ _Sefirot  (ספירות, sfirot, singular ספירה sfirɔ), literally means "*counting*, enumeration"_

Were the tax collectors from Jesus not also jews?

And at last: the etymology of Emperor and Empire:

_From imperō (“command, order”), from im- (form of in) + parō (“prepare, arrange; intend”) Cognate with pariō (“to produce”)_

Now I understand why the Nobles* were so rich 

*Noble = first English golden coin


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## Borec (Aug 3, 2021)

Kabela is a larger handbag (kabelka)... in the Czech language. Maybe it has something to do with the SALT tax they needed a big KABELA for.   )


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## Alexandra (Aug 3, 2021)

Borec said:


> Kabela is a larger handbag (kabelka).


Yes off course! A purse!


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## Silveryou (Aug 4, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> "The Old French _chamberlain, chamberlenc_, Modern French _chambellan_, from Old High German _Chamarling, Chamarlinc_, whence also the Medieval Latin _cambellanus, camerlingus, camerlengus_; Italian _camerlingo_; Spanish _camerlengo_, compounded of Old High German _Chamara, Kamara_ [Latin _camera_, “chamber”], and the German suffix _-ling" _(Chamberlain (office) - Wikipedia)





Silveryou said:


> So in all languages seems to be a composite of the words _room _and -_lengo, -lingus, -ling, -larius (or -rarius), -lain, -llan, -llano._


Another possible meaning of this suffix could be _land_ (as in 'country', 'province'). If _chamberlain _and _camerlengus _are the same then we can see how the chamberlain was also called _cambellanus._
The city of Milan was called Mediolanum, said by some to derive "from the Celtic root _lan_, meaning an enclosure or demarcated territory (source of the Welsh word _llan_, meaning "a sanctuary or church", ultimately cognate to English/German _Land_) in which Celtic communities used to build shrines". (Milan - Wikipedia)
An Italian small town called Casalpusterlengo (Casalpusterlengo - Wikipedia), not far from Milan, is said to derive its name from the medieval _Pusterla _family (even though a pusterla - Engl. postern - is also "a secondary door or gate in a fortification such as a city wall or castle curtain wall" - Postern - Wikipedia). No explanation is given for the -lengo suffix, which could be a different way to say 'land' in Lombard language. Maybe.


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## Bitbybit (Aug 5, 2021)

in swedish disctionary words: Lang/lång/langa/belanga etc  = Long/extend/reach out..
We have the synonyms:  Langobard - Lombard
and then in some books some speculation if the origin comes from long bears or as in long spear (hillebard).

Langobard kings list:
_Pepin or Pippin, born originally with the name *Carloman*, was the son of Charlemagne and King of the Lombards_





Pepin of Italy - Wikipedia
Lombards - Wikipedia
Understanding 6th-century barbarian social organization and migration through paleogenomics - Nature Communications

http://runeberg.org/katalog.html
Perhaps also non swedish person can try etymological research with runeberg site.
Use the search field in the top right, and the list with google results is the word from different books.


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