# They say that this building was built recently, the building hides some mystery or not?



## HELLBOY (Jan 26, 2022)

I am interested to know if this building hides some mystery or not, they say that this building was built recently, in only 2 years, by Leonid Gornik and his company Antika. The style of the construction is baroque, after some, eclectic, after others, or even renaissance.

"Kazan now has its Palace of Agriculture" - that reminded me of the Universal Exposition.

*ANTIKA The House of Agriculture (Tatarstan Department of Food and Agriculture)
Architect: Leonid Gornik*


When participating in the building design competition for the House of Agriculture, our aim was that the project should embody our ideas on the restoration of classical style forms, which combine strict laconic proportions and monumental features. After winning the competition, we began to build what we had designed. On the seventeen thousand square meters of territory, all construction works, including interior finishing and curb appeal, were completed in just two years. This is how the city of Kazan got its House of Agriculture.
Every building must be unique. In this particular project, the centerpiece of the composition is the magnificent bronze tree, 20 meters high. It represents cultivated nature and the noble work of farmers.

The architect also finds it hard to believe in the result in such a short time: 
Revival of the elegant classics

The project was created very quickly. Time was very limited: only one month.
I had 12 days to create and draw the project. The remaining 18 days were spent on computer graphics and creating the 3D model, this was a hell of ideas, but I have realized that when you don't have time to think, the ideas that are created are more interesting and daring.
And within the architectural circles of our city there is a kind of stereotype of how the architecture of our city should be. We propose something different and very unusual.
Forgotten classics, but authentic? Not a provincial and miserable classicism, but classics for the capital, complex and beautiful, daring and therefore attractive.
We achieved this building in two years. Sometimes I find it hard to believe, but we did it! But enthusiasm is a great thing, it allows us to overcome everything. I think one of the main factors is our 20 years of experience in construction. During all these years we have perfected our skills in creating classical forms.

*HB:* Does anyone here know where I can find construction photos?
The building was already there before? the building reminds of the ancient architectural style of the previous civilization.

If it is a recent construction, is it something like a 3D printer?

This reminded me a little bit of the style of architecture that is used in the ghost town in China. Ghost town between Russia, China and Mongolia


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## Safranek (Jan 26, 2022)

Interesting. I would also like to see the construction photos. Here's another building attributed to him:





from this link:    

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/new-classical-architects-list-please-add-more.1715624/page-40


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## Lightseeker (Jan 26, 2022)

Looks suspicious.


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## Goddo (Jan 26, 2022)

Yes, even on their website  Antica - Sale of real estate   no photos of Progress to Completion or Construction Site.  They include a few 'concept' design drawings and all the rest are of fully completed buildings.  Their mission statement is 'the revival of classical architectural styles'.  No mention on their website of staff or directors, and no reference to contractors, design teams, historical research etc. Not certain of how long the company Antica has been going !  Since 2005 ??  Seems very flimsy to me.


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## iseidon (Jan 26, 2022)

The Palace of Farmers is next to the Kazan Kremlin (there is a theory that the Kremlin is a relative newel, as part of Kazan on such a theory washed away), so the place is 100% not the most common.

The second building is located at 15 Kasatkina Street. Nearby runs Pushkin Street, which is the boundary of the modern center of Kazan (a la Garden Ring in Moscow or old Wall Street in New York).



Spoiler: Road Kasatkina 15, Kazan



Link google street view







In my opinion, judging by the modern relief, there used to be a river or canal in place of Pushkin Street. Or there was a "fortress" moat.



Spoiler: Photo google maps



Link google street view









Unfortunately, there is almost no detailed information.

On pastvu.com old photos do not indicate anything unusual in these areas.

A link (ru) pastvu.com to the location of the Farmers' Palace.

A link (ru) pastvu.com to the location of the building on Kasatkina 15.

But perhaps there was something underground before the conditional "post-flood" settlement of Kazan by Russians and Tatars.


Goddo said:


> Yes, even on their website  Antica - Sale of real estate   no photos of Progress to Completion or Construction Site.  They include a few 'concept' design drawings and all the rest are of fully completed buildings.  Their mission statement is 'the revival of classical architectural styles'.  No mention on their website of staff or directors, and no reference to contractors, design teams, historical research etc. Not certain of how long the company Antica has been going !  Since 2005 ??  Seems very flimsy to me.


I couldn't find a picture of the construction of the Farmers' Palace either. And we're asking about photos from the 19th century. 

So, 100% something was underground.

The fact that the company was founded in 2005 - this is normal for Russia, as we had the collapse of the USSR. Would 1991 have suited you? By the way, the website says that the company has existed since 1997. But that doesn't change anything.

I'm almost 100% sure that the building was built on the old foundation. That's why there is so little information on construction in the heart of one of the largest cities in Russia.


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## Jd755 (Jan 26, 2022)

This really is not hard to do. I spent less than ten minutes with duckduckgo, google translate, the Tatar language & the Russian language and found this.


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## iseidon (Jan 26, 2022)

kd-755 said:


> This really is not hard to do. I spent less than ten minutes with duckduckgo, google translate, the Tatar language & the Russian language and found this.
> View attachment 18977​


Thank you. But this is practically the final part of the construction. 

Yandex is not a good search engine.


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## Silveryou (Jan 26, 2022)

Someone should call people living in that neighborhood. It's not gonna be difficult


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## Jd755 (Jan 26, 2022)

iseidon said:


> Thank you. But this is practically the final part of the construction.
> 
> Yandex is not a good search engine.


And what is the problem with it being the final part?
Are we so immature we need photos from breaking ground all the way through to topping out before we accept it is not ancient, found or something?
Who used Yandex?
The claim was construction photos do not exist which led to all the speculation above.
Well here is a photo that disproves the claim.
I'm sure native Russian speakers would be able to find more if they are so minded.


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## iseidon (Jan 26, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Someone should call people living in that neighborhood. It's not gonna be difficult


This is the center of Kazan, near the Kremlin. Not many people live there. But there are a lot of tourists. If there were a lot of pictures, they would pop up right away.


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## Jd755 (Jan 26, 2022)

iseidon said:


> This is the center of Kazan, near the Kremlin. Not many people live there. But there are a lot of tourists. If there were a lot of pictures, they would pop up right away.


Or maybe call someone in the construction companies that built the thing. Surely they would nail it one way or the other.


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## iseidon (Jan 26, 2022)

kd-755 said:


> And what is the problem with it being the final part?
> Are we so immature we need photos from breaking ground all the way through to topping out before we accept it is not ancient, found or something?
> Who used Yandex?


The fact that the building itself is new is clear. The question is different. What's underneath it?

I used the Yandex. This once again confirms that to search for information (not pictures), Yandex is not the best option.


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## Jd755 (Jan 26, 2022)

iseidon said:


> The fact that the building itself is new is clear. The question is different. What's underneath it?
> 
> I used the Yandex. This once again confirms that to search for information (not pictures), Yandex is not the best option.


Well why carry on using it?
If you go to Sidneys thread on here you will find page after page of search engines to wander through.
Is this constant arguing against Yandex a search engine I do not use and didn't for this search thread sliding?
Asking the mod crew not you.

Edit to strike through as I now get what iseidon is saying. He uses Yandex and its crap.


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## Silveryou (Jan 26, 2022)

iseidon said:


> This is the center of Kazan, near the Kremlin. Not many people live there. But there are a lot of tourists. If there were a lot of pictures, they would pop up right away.


I'm not familiar with the geography of the place but if one manages to find a photo _without_ this construction, wouldn't it be considered proof of its non-existence in the recent past?


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## iseidon (Jan 26, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> I'm not familiar with the geography of the place but if one manages to find a photo _without_ yìthis construction, wouldn't it be considered proof pf its non-existence in the recent past?


I'm referring to the foundation of the (proposed) building, which is underground. The fact that there were little-noticeable houses in the place of this building is also seen on pastvu.com.


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## Citezenship (Jan 26, 2022)

They are always screwing with us, always.

65-Foot Bronze Tree Grows in Russia’s “Palace of Farmers” Archway

It says it is a renovation, maybe this is lost in translation.


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## iseidon (Jan 26, 2022)

Thanks to this forum thread, I learned that Gornik designed (only the design stage) the reconstruction of a building in the center of Yekaterinburg.

The building is very unusual. Or rather a complex. Originally it was built as a library, but World War II changed the plans. And instrument-making plant was placed there. Later, more buildings were added. They are now standing on the site of the building in question. Before the Revolution, there were estates in the "ancient" style. Inside the complex of buildings is a building about which few people know, even in Yekaterinburg (it was supposed to become a library). For as long as I can remember, there was no movement there.










Now there is a fight for this land between local oligarchs and the federal budget (Moscow).

By the way, the inscription on the building, which was proposed to reconstruct, reads "What are We? Where Do We Come From?Where are We Going?» This text refers to Paul Gauguin.


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## Jd755 (Jan 26, 2022)

The image immediately underneath the construction photo shows more of the area that is under development after being cleared.


The idea that massive foundations existed under whatever buildings were on the ground and were miraculously uncovered then deemed safe enough to build on remains an idea nothing more. There is zero evidence be it documentary, pictorial or anecdotal for the pre existence of a building of this precise shape.


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## iseidon (Jan 26, 2022)

kd-755 said:


> The image immediately underneath the construction photo shows more of the area that is under development after being cleared.
> View attachment 18982​The idea that massive foundations existed under whatever buildings were on the ground and were miraculously uncovered then deemed safe enough to build on remains an idea nothing more. There is zero evidence be it documentary, pictorial or anecdotal for the pre existence of a building of this precise shape.





Spoiler: Photo GSV



Link panorama 










The photo you cited proves nothing. This is only a small part of the site. Moreover, the building stands in the middle of the site and does not adjoin in any way to the part that is shown in the photo.

And as for the foundations. Yes, I agree. It's just a theory. But it has the right to life. But it must be approached carefully.


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## Jd755 (Jan 26, 2022)

The black soil in the foreground of both pictures is evidence the site has been cleared of all previous construction.

The two buildings with the black roofs beyond the agriculture building are just finished going off of their appearance and the huge sign on the nearest one. The building in the far right background behind the agriculture building is dilapidated and the scrub between the two is a regrowth on previously cleared land as evidence by the low scale of the shrubs and plants.

In the second photograph of the blue building the foreground road has new lights along the road whilst on the side of the cleared land there is a smashed kerb clearly visible. The building to the far right beyond the fence in this photograph is not old and between the fence and the back of the blue roof building there is more cleared land.

Together this shows the area has been and remains under development at the time the photographs were taken. Tineye search engine claims there are no other copies of these photographs on the internet so there is a possibility the author of the article took them.

Photographs are evidence not proof. They capture a singular moment in time and that is all. All the available evidence points to a land clearance programme followed by a construction programme.

All the evidence points to the building of recent construction.
Everything else is speculation and will remain speculation without evidence to the contrary. None has been presented here.


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## iseidon (Jan 26, 2022)

Near the Kremlin, in addition to the Palace of Farmers, there is a circus, the Central Stadium and the Pyramid Culture and Entertainment Complex.



Spoiler: Photo GSV
















kd-755 said:


> The black soil in the foreground of both pictures is evidence the site has been cleared of all previous construction.


The presence of fresh chernozem does not mean anything. In Russia, they put it everywhere. Next to my apartment building there are constant excavations every year (replacing pipes mostly). And there are thousands of such houses all over the country. Under the black earth and layer of soil, literally at a depth of 2-3 meters there is a sewer. By your logic, I have to assume that there is nothing under the fresh chernozem (which, among other things, every time they fill up the sewer system).

The only evidence of the presence of chernozem is that there is chernozem, of which there is plenty in Russia.

Yes, you are right. We mere mortals cannot provide any evidence. They won't let us in. If we were allowed in, this site (and many others) would be unnecessary.

But what do I see, from my subjective point of view? I see the Kremlin area in Kazan. Around this Kremlin there are a number of buildings that always attract my attention (circus, pyramid theater, stadium). Next to such an object a building in the "ancient" style is built. Already there are suspicions. But then I go to the website of the architect and what do I see? And I see that the same architect was engaged in a suspicious (one of the most suspicious, in my opinion) building in my city, which interests me for a long time. And on the facade of this building (as if in banter) hangs a phrase that can be made the motto of this and any other similar site.

And as the cherry on the cake. Building in Ekaterinburg, is located 400 meters from the place of "murder" (the proof, though was not after the death) of Nicholas 2. Combine this with numerous legends of dungeons in those areas. I got these legends directly from my relatives (mother, grandfather, great-grandmother). All as one said that there were underground passages. But over time, most of the area where my relatives lived was buried underground. So was the Melkówka River. Now there's a movie theater and a park there.

Given all this, the Palace of Farmers in Kazan seems suspicious, to say the least. The presence of photos at the stage of the bare excavation with the appropriate depth would remove my doubts, but there are no such photos.

User @HELLBOY  gave the example of two buildings. Hypothetically linked them to the Manchurian supposed "ancient" old-new cities. Given that the building in Kazan interested me before, I decided to give the  @HELLBOY user as much information about that area as possible. And given that this building led me to a building with similar connotations in Yekaterinburg, I think there is definitely reason for doubt.

Still found (with the help of Yandex) photos of construction (albeit not from the stage of the pit). That's something.

But there are still no photos of the zero stage of construction.

And I can tell you exactly. The fact that you have to search with such difficulty for pictures of construction in a city with a million people, in one of the most visited places in Russia (the Kazan Kremlin; except for Moscow and St. Petersburg), is already suspicious.



Spoiler: Photos


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## Jd755 (Jan 26, 2022)

More speculation.
Were I a native Russian speaker I would do my utmost to contact someone in Kazakstan who was either in the newspaper industry or the construction industry or even a local historian and find things out us English only speakers cannot do.
I do happen to know a chap who is in Kazakstan on 3 months on 3 months off rotation but he is on a gas field and is escorted to and from the field as the oil company running the gas field do not want the locals finding out just how much money he gets paid.

Still until you pull some evidence from somewhere which shows anything to the contrary the available evidence is what it is. The building is a recent construction built using modern building methods which rather knocks the suggestion that "Taratarian" architecture cannot be built today into a cocked hat.


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## iseidon (Jan 26, 2022)

kd-755 said:


> More speculation.
> Were I a native Russian speaker I would do my utmost to contact someone in Kazakstan who was either in the newspaper industry or the construction industry or even a local historian and find things out us English only speakers cannot do.
> I do happen to know a chap who is in Kazakstan on 3 months on 3 months off rotation but he is on a gas field and is escorted to and from the field as the oil company running the gas field do not want the locals finding out just how much money he gets paid.
> 
> Still until you pull some evidence from somewhere which shows anything to the contrary the available evidence is what it is. The building is a recent construction built using modern building methods which rather knocks the suggestion that "Taratarian" architecture cannot be built today into a cocked hat.


Wait. I didn't even say a word about the building itself being old. That the building (its upper level) is recent is obvious.

The only question is this. What's underground. And here we enter the realm of hypotheses. But, in my opinion, it is obvious that there is something under the building. In Russia, there are plenty of such cases (buildings or their lower parts underground, not just the basement).

Remains of building foundations underground in Russia (ru, photo). Given that digging deeper than 5 meters in Russia without a license is prohibited - lucky that we see at least something at such shallow depths. What's deeper than that? They won't tell us.

Chernozem on Vainera (Yekaterinburg) at a depth of 3 meters. The buildings that have been blown in?


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## Jd755 (Jan 26, 2022)

iseidon said:


> But, in my opinion, it is obvious that there is something under the building. In Russia, there are plenty of such cases (buildings or their lower parts underground, not just the basement).


At the risk of another post being deleted. What have you done or going to do to validate that opinion?

You won't know this as you are new here but honestly I went through this with the creator of SH version 1 Korben Dallas. He too was convinced buildings in Russia had been partly dug out, they are never 'restored' to the original ground level for some reason no-one has ever explained, and I showed him the evidence he presented did not back up his claims. Here's some links. Posting them here as they are relevant to this buried buildings theory.
SH Archive - Mud flood, dirt rain, and the story of the buried buildings
SH Archive Replies - Mud flood, dirt rain, and the story of the buried buildings

Edit to correct typo


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## Lightseeker (Jan 26, 2022)

kd-755 said:


> This really is not hard to do. I spent less than ten minutes with duckduckgo, google translate, the Tatar language & the Russian language and found this.
> View attachment 18977​



Let's assume for a moment that it was indeed built in modern times. 
Modern-day machinery and tech was necessary to build ONE building in TWO years. Yet we are told that the buildings shown in the world fairs were built in a few months...


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## iseidon (Jan 26, 2022)

kd-755 said:


> What have you done or going to do to validate that opinion?





Spoiler: Answer. Doesn't fully fit the topic of the thread. Therefore, I place it under the spoiler.



It is naivety that speaks in you, which is expressed in the fact that someone will provide you with information. I get the feeling that you are unfamiliar with such concepts as “non-disclosure agreement” and “state secret”. Everything that we are interested in in Russia (I am sure that the situation is similar all over the world, since such measures are aimed primarily at the safety of facilities, and they are approximately the same everywhere) falls under this concept. (Underground works at a depth of 5 meters; Works in the Metropolitan; Real projects of buildings; etc.). As a result, not a single official will tell about anything, the necessary plans will not be posted. So what kind of evidence can we talk about? The only thing that can convince me is a photo report from a bare pit, the stage of strengthening the soil and driving piles. In the vast majority of cases, when it comes to building within the historic centers of cities, this is not the case.

We (in Russia), in general, have little to find. Therefore, it remains to put forward hypotheses (based on inconsistencies) and connect them. The more such inconsistencies, the better. This is how I see the approach to recovering STOLEN history. I get the impression that you want the thief (since the story is stolen, then there must be a thief) to bring you proof of his guilt. This will not happen.

My opinion is not the ultimate truth. This is just my opinion. But it arose not just from watching videos on YouTube and reading a couple of dozen articles or books.

If there is a reason to delete it, then delete it.

You don't need to warn me. I won't die if a couple of my posts get deleted. Even my attitude to the site will not change. I respect the opinion of the moderators, no matter how it applies to me. I didn't offend a single person. All posts are related (in one way or another) to the topic of the thread.

This message was specially folded under the spoiler so that not everyone read it.


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## Jd755 (Jan 26, 2022)

Lightseeker said:


> Let's assume for a moment that it was indeed built in modern times.
> Modern-day machinery and tech was necessary to build ONE building in TWO years. Yet we are told that the buildings shown in the world fairs were built in a few months...


Knock yourself out. SH Archive Replies - 1904: the destruction of the Louisiana Purchase Exposition in Saint Louis 10 pages long.


iseidon said:


> Spoiler: Answer. Doesn't fully fit the topic of the thread. Therefore, I place it under the spoiler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All I asked was what you are doing to prove or disprove your opinion. From memory there is a similar state permit required when digging in Holland, more to do with flooding most likely than buried buildings but still.
If the only thing that convince you there is nothing there except a bare pit as you put it then the likelihood of you finding such a thing given the restrictions you outline is remote. Perhaps you would be better doing a similar search effort in a country where the state is not as onerous. At least then you would get a clearer idea if your opinion is valid or not. Best of luck whatever you decide.

Edit to add
As you can see in the linked threads forum member cemen is a Russian and he managed to find a lot of things out.


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## iseidon (Jan 26, 2022)

kd-755 said:


> Knock yourself out. SH Archive Replies - 1904: the destruction of the Louisiana Purchase Exposition in Saint Louis 10 pages long.
> 
> All I asked was what you are doing to prove or disprove your opinion. From memory there is a similar state permit required when digging in Holland, more to do with flooding most likely than buried buildings but still.
> If the only thing that convince you there is nothing there except a bare pit as you put it then the likelihood of you finding such a thing given the restrictions you outline is remote. Perhaps you would be better doing a similar search effort in a country where the state is not as onerous. At least then you would get a clearer idea if your opinion is valid or not. Best of luck whatever you dec
> ...





Spoiler: Answer



Gostiny Dvor in Kasimov has an underground floor (at least). To shoot the video, the author of the video had to go against the security of the complex, who threatened the police.

Video (19:19), Article on tart-aria.info (ru)



Spoiler: Photo













The Luzhetsky Monastery in Mozhaisk has not been fully excavated. Excavated 1 meter after the collapse of the USSR. They didn't dig further. At the same time, all windows, at the excavated level, are sealed with modern bricks on cement mortar.

Video (20:01)



Spoiler: Photo











What should the posts of the user cemen convince me of?

All the examples (quite well-known in the Russian environment of alternatives) that he cited confirm the version that something interesting is waiting for us underground, rather than refute it.

What difference does it make what country a person is from? Let's say you are an American. If I tell you that another American believes something, will that be an argument for you in favor of this statement?


UPD


Spoiler



This is the height at which most of the buildings are buried, at least in the Urals. But most likely, all over the world, where there are traces of "antique" architecture.


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## Jd755 (Jan 26, 2022)

This thread seems to have slid from the op so I won't contribute any further to that slide. Apologies to hellboy if its already gone too far.

If there is something pre-existing in the ground under that building as iseidon opines then the chances of it ever coming to light are extremely remote for the reasons iseidon has provided. The building shown in the op was built in modern times as the evidence of the photograph, solitary as it is, attests. 
Until such times as evidence of a pre existing foundation is presented then no there is nothing mysterious about the building we see today as far as I can tell.


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## Broken Agate (Jan 27, 2022)

Only two years to complete that monstrosity of a building?? How?? I've seen  smaller, cheaper construction projects that took longer than that, and they weren't fancy, just the usual modern ugly boxes. That's surely an incredible feat of engineering, yet we get a photo of some scaffolding and no ground-to-roof  construction photos at all. I'm not buying that this thing was made in modern times. Reconstructed, certainly, but not put together from the foundation up.

I love the tree under the archway. It surely wasn't an accident that it represents the World Tree, Yggdrasil, whatever you want to call it, beneath the dome of the sky.  Proof enough to me that there is more going on with this building than some bored billionaires wanting a pretty building to house the agriculture department.


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## HELLBOY (Jan 27, 2022)

Safranek said:


> Interesting. I would also like to see the construction photos. Here's another building attributed to him:
> 
> View attachment 18925
> 
> ...


In fact that's what I was looking for, if anyone here on the forum, perhaps from among the Russian members would have access to construction photos.


kd-755 said:


> And what is the problem with it being the final part?
> Are we so immature we need photos from breaking ground all the way through to topping out before we accept it is not ancient, found or something?
> Who used Yandex?
> The claim was construction photos do not exist which led to all the speculation above.
> ...


Right, I was hoping some member in Russia would provide some pictures to give me an idea of how the construction went, I was going through Tartaristan with google and it has thousands of buildings of this style, I was thinking about the fact how come they don't support this kind of architects for global architecture, it is very beautiful. 
It would be even more impressive to find some map or engraving of the same place or photo of about 10 years ago.


Silveryou said:


> I'm not familiar with the geography of the place but if one manages to find a photo _without_ this construction, wouldn't it be considered proof of its non-existence in the recent past?


Yes, actually my search about this Palace of Agriculture is, what was there before the building on the site, hopefully maybe some old map of the city or some engraving, and some photos of the construction but I knew it was an easier task maybe for some Russian. That's why I decided to ask if anyone had any data on the site.


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## Goddo (Jan 27, 2022)

kd-755 said:


> This really is not hard to do. I spent less than ten minutes with duckduckgo, google translate, the Tatar language & the Russian language and found this.
> View attachment 18977​


Could just as easily be a photo of renovations / maintenance or simply cleaning.  This is all scaffolding.


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## HELLBOY (Jan 27, 2022)

kd-755 said:


> The image immediately underneath the construction photo shows more of the area that is under development after being cleared.
> View attachment 18982​The idea that massive foundations existed under whatever buildings were on the ground and were miraculously uncovered then deemed safe enough to build on remains an idea nothing more. There is zero evidence be it documentary, pictorial or anecdotal for the pre existence of a building of this precise shape.


This image shows the distance between this church and the Palace of Agriculture, which seems to be in a deeper place.
Google Maps









Someone with an old map of the city, as this aerial shot reminds me of the St. Petersburg swamp.


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## Jd755 (Jan 27, 2022)

Goddo said:


> Could just as easily be a photo of renovations / maintenance or simply cleaning.  This is all scaffolding.


No it is a construction site. I have been on on construction sites bigger and smaller than the Qazak one so I know what to look for.
The biggest clue is the area butting up to the building within the white fence. Its appearance is repeated ad nauseum on building sites large and small all over the world. Not quite littered but untidy and uses to store materials as they arrive and move them onto site which results in a generally muddy environment.
Were it renovation this would not be there. The fact it continues across to the two black roof buildings is evidence that they are newly built.

_This image shows the distance between this church and the Palace of Agriculture, which seems to be in a deeper place._
Do you mean the church is built on a hill and the agriculture building isn't?
How about a WW2 German aerial photograph dated 1942, that do?
Kazan, a German air recce picture taken in 1942




Or how about one dated 1943?
Kazan, a German air recce picture taken in 1943



Edit to add
Continuing asking search engines questions brought this site to my attention  Kazan city modern architecture photos

Specifically this image




It is the same building in the top right corner of the construction photograph. The image is undated but the white construction site fence is the same. However as the land inside the fence has been recently graded there is no green growth in view. Based on my experience and the evidence within this photograph and the construction photograph it looks like the site was levelled prior to construction beginning. Clearly a hill or bank has been removed to create a large level area to build the agriculture building on.

Edit two
Just to round it out these two images are evidence that all I have mentioned above in regards this building is over the target so too speak
From here Kazan Palace of Farmers - the pearl of Tatarstan - Environment 2022

The dilapidated building(s) are still there when this photo was taken.




This one shows a part of a hill was removed.


​Yet another edit,
I found the photographer who took the images above images Flight over Kazan (2012) — Photos — Encyclopedia of safety

They are dated 2012


> In this post I collected the photos taken during a flight over Kazan on a sunny summer afternoon.  Undoubtedly, this city — in his own amazing and interesting.  It combines the beautiful historical buildings and modern skyscrapers.  Kazan continues to prepare for the Universiade, which will take place in 2013 — is in full swing throughout the construction and reconstruction.



Here is a screenshot of the last photo above enlarged in the browser and in it you can clearly see the grass behind and to the right of the building has recently been laid so the landscaping which is always the final stages of construction was ongoing or just about complete in 2012. You alsio get a clear view of the dilapidated buildings behind the agriculture building high on the hill.


​For there to have been existing foundations for this building if not for the three alongside it then they would have been buried under a hill at least partially as I have no idea how much hill was removed to accommodate this building and possibly the three alongside it.

What this thread has shown me is we alive today and our technologies and materials are easily capable of building any built structure in any built style whatsoever and architecture alone is no guide to when it was actually constructed. In the flesh these buildings may not pass the ancient test in terms of appearance and materials used but only to people who are looking into such things or have knowledge of such things for most people "it looks old therefore it is old" is good enough.
All this so called Tartarian architecture is more than likely a mix of buildings constructed at different times in the same or very similar styles. following fashion is one way of putting it.

Apologies again for wandering a bit Hellboy this just seems the right place to record my observation.


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## HELLBOY (Jan 27, 2022)

kd-755 said:


> No it is a construction site. I have been on on construction sites bigger and smaller than the Qazak one so I know what to look for.
> The biggest clue is the area butting up to the building within the white fence. Its appearance is repeated ad nauseum on building sites large and small all over the world. Not quite littered but untidy and uses to store materials as they arrive and move them onto site which results in a generally muddy environment.
> Were it renovation this would not be there. The fact it continues across to the two black roof buildings is evidence that they are newly built.
> 
> ...





> Apologies again for rambling a bit Hellboy these just seems like the right place to record my observation.




Seems to me you do a good job and I appreciate it.

I was really confused with the Kazan 1942, 1943 shots. I wanted to contrast with the actual map and based on the Kasanka river which is even apparent in the two photos, the area shows huge changes since that date.









The photo shows the curve of the Volga to the left as I marked above, it is strange when you compare and see that now the Kazanka river is further inland away from the Volga.





The land mass in the center of the Volga moved to the right?





As I said, I already took a look in the city and saw thousands of buildings similar to the Agriculture Palace in the city, the pictures you posted show a land without buildings, so many of these buildings must be after that 1942-3.


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## Jd755 (Jan 27, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> Seems to me you do a good job and I appreciate it.


Thank you. That means a great deal.

The difference is the German photographs are taken from a low flying aircraft on film. The google images are as far I as can find out are digital renditions of images taken from higher flying aircraft. The evidence for the existence of a satellite guidance and stabilisation system that allows a machine said to travel at thousands of miles per hour over land and sea and allow a camera to produce high quality still images is simply not there.

That there has been ground reshaping since 1942/3 is beyond doubt and  it seems likely the banks of the river would be reshaped as would any islands in the rivers themselves. We cannot stop ourselves fiddling with such things it seems. As with many places on river banks or lake sides the easiest way to get more flat land is to infill indentations in the bank and often push this infilling out a fair way from the original land/river boundary. Its popular the world over and as Kazan was under Soviet control for a long long time there would be no shortage of labour and machinery to carry out vast changes more or less hidden from the outside world though no doubt United States spy planes were busy taking photographs that we do not have access too.
They could also build just about anything and we would know nothing of it until the Soviet era collapsed.

My friend in the gas field says there are two Kazakhstans. One where the city people live that is underpinned by mafia and the European west and the rest of the country where they are more or less left to their own devices and are piss poor financially but are the much more friendly and generous people.
Ties in does it not with the creation of the Tartars as described in this thread where the author opines then provides evidence of Germans creating Russian history. Usurpers from abroad inventing a history is a repeating event across the entirety of stolen history subjects.


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## iseidon (Jan 27, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> I was really confused with the Kazan 1942, 1943 shots. I wanted to contrast with the actual map and based on the Kasanka river which is even apparent in the two photos, the area shows huge changes since that date.
> 
> The photo shows the curve of the Volga to the left as I marked above, it is strange when you compare and see that now the Kazanka river is further inland away from the Volga.





HELLBOY said:


> The land mass in the center of the Volga moved to the right?



I told you earlier.



> «The Palace of Farmers is next to the Kazan Kremlin (there is a theory that the Kremlin is a relative newel, as part of Kazan on such a theory washed away), so the place is 100% not the most common.»



As you can see, the theory did not arise from scratch.

The flooding of part of the city (ru) is associated (according to the generally accepted version) with the creation of the Kuibyshev reservoir.

During the construction of which a number of cities and many villages were flooded.

Before that, there is still information about a strong new flood in 1926 (ru).


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## Citezenship (Jan 27, 2022)

So here is the googly's historical imagery from 2004 to 2011.


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## Blackdiamond (Jan 27, 2022)

Citezenship said:


> So here is the googly's historical imagery from 2004 to 2011.
> 
> View attachment 19042View attachment 19043View attachment 19044View attachment 19045View attachment 19046View attachment 19047View attachment 19048View attachment 19049




Looks like its on the edge or just outside the old star city?


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## iseidon (Jan 27, 2022)

By the way, the tree in the arch can be connected with Mertsalov's palm (ru).


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## Citezenship (Jan 27, 2022)

Old plan of the Kremlin, can't really find an old star there, i mean the kremlin kind of is a fortified city but it is not what i would call a star fort or a star civ, it has the wrong dimensions to satisfy my need, emphasis on my. It does make it onto the map as being an interesting place.









My criteria is that although it is an impressive fortified city, from above it is not a star, ie not geometrically perfect.


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## iseidon (Jan 27, 2022)

Blackdiamond said:


> Looks like its on the edge or just outside the old star city?


According to the generally accepted version, this is so. The same can be seen on any map. I have already mentioned many times that this building is located next to the Kremlin (in this case, there is no information that the Kremlin is star "fortress").

Personally, I tend to think that the real history of Kazan (like most cities in Russia; and the world too) is hidden from prying eyes. In the case of Kazan, it is hidden under water. I don’t have much confidence in old maps (beginning of the 20th century and earlier), since they could easily be drawn at any time.


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## Jd755 (Jan 27, 2022)

Hellboy there is a timelapse in the video on this page which shows the reclamation that was done.
Pavel Otdelnov | Artificial Reclamations


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## iseidon (Jan 27, 2022)

kd-755 said:


> Hellboy there is a timelapse in the video on this page which shows the reclamation that was done.
> Pavel Otdelnov | Artificial Reclamations


The video featured on the site shows areas on the other side of the river or areas that are located on the outskirts of the city. To the Palace of Farmers, the video is indirectly related. The only thing it shows is how the coastline is being washed and strengthened for the construction of elite housing and Universiade facilities.


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## Jd755 (Jan 27, 2022)

Fair enough. I found it looking for articles or images of any of the rivers flooding. Cannot find any using English as the search language will try the Russian language later.
Did find this though which is a great view of the area under discussion. Historic and Architectural Complex of the Kazan Kremlin
No sign of the singular form of a starfort though.



​


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## iseidon (Jan 27, 2022)

kd-755 said:


> No sign of the singular form of a starfort though.


We will not see them (at least the central ones, not the outskirts).

The center of old Kazan, with a high degree of probability, is under water.

Around here, in my opinion.


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## Silveryou (Jan 27, 2022)

We should drain the area. Maybe there's a treasure of the pirates inside the star-fort.

Ok.


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## Jd755 (Jan 27, 2022)

iseidon said:


> The center of old Kazan, with a high degree of probability, is under water.
> 
> Around here, in my opinion.


Opinions are fine as far as they go but you have no evidence.

Edit to add
From here Flying Over the Capital of Tatarstan, Part II - English Russia
The people who commissioned and built this



Also commissioned and built this during the same building period pre 2013.
Good grief.


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## iseidon (Jan 27, 2022)

kd-755 said:


> Opinions are fine as far as they go but you have no evidence.


As you can see, I'm not putting forward evidence. Only a theory based on a comparison with the location of a number of cities in the world.



Silveryou said:


> We should drain the area. Maybe there's a treasure of the pirates inside the star-fort.
> 
> Ok.


Most of what interests us has long been washed away (and most likely more than once). And what was left after was taken to us. It would be interesting to see what is under the modern bottom (under the old earth), but this is definitely not information for the general public.


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## Blackdiamond (Jan 27, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> We should drain the area. Maybe there's a treasure of the pirates inside the star-fort.
> 
> Ok.



No need to be rude. You dont know until you dig if there is any pirates there. 
This for example, seemingly random rectangular foundation style cut rocks, is a bit from a ~200m area where no maps show any building historicly. But the name of the modern housing contains something you can translate to fort. Its just an example.


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## Silveryou (Jan 27, 2022)

Blackdiamond said:


> No need to be rude. You dont know until you dig if there is any pirates there.


I'm not rude. Just want to drain the area. Would you go there with me? I have a couple of drinking straws, one blue and one red. Blue is my fav colour


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## iseidon (Jan 27, 2022)

kd-755 said:


> Also commissioned and built this during the same building period pre 2013.
> Good grief.
> View attachment 19059​


This is a late Soviet style building (ru). (I think it's obvious). Built after the collapse of the USSR. Nobody built it in 2013. At most, minor repairs were carried out.



Spoiler



This building is located along the same line as Pushkin Street (the border of the modern center of Kazan), which, in my opinion, is a section of the border of the old Kazan.

Please note that the building is fortified on all sides with earth. This may indicate both additional reinforcement (given that there is a river nearby), and the fact that the building was built on an old foundation. And to strengthen this foundation (without prying eyes) they added an embankment from all sides.


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## Jd755 (Jan 27, 2022)

iseidon said:


> Only a theory based on a comparison with the location of a number of cities in the world.


Again fine but this thread is all about the Palace of Farmers building don't forget. We are seeking evidence there is anything mysterious about it and up to date there is no evidence of anything mysterious.

Clearly it wasn't there in 2004 as the google images provided by citizenship are evidence of.
Clearly part of a hill was removed to accommodate the building as I have provided evidence of.
There was a flood in 1926 but it was not what you could call devastating nor catastrophic.
The German aerial shots are the best evidence I have found for what was really there in 1942/43 and it is very very different to what is really there today in 2022.
I am looking for any evidence of any buildings of any kind that were there prior to 1900 and am finding nothing no matter what language is used so will continue broadening the search.

Please stop hiding your replies behind the spoiler tag not only is it annoying it disrupts the flow of discussion.
Once again where is the evidence for what you claim to be the case?
Please post it.


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## Silveryou (Jan 27, 2022)

By the way @iseidon, Fomenko says that Astrachan was previously located in another place. Never seen any 'mudflooders' searching for the previous location.

14. THE MODERN LOCATION OF ASTRAKHAN DIFFERS FROM THAT OF THE OLD TARTAR ASTRAKHAN, WHICH THE ROMANOVS APPEAR TO HAVE RAZED OUT OF EXISTENCE (https://chronologia.org/en/seven/4N14-EN-5.pdf)


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## iseidon (Jan 27, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> By the way @iseidon, Fomenko says that Astrachan was previously located in another place. Never seen any 'mudflooders' searching for the previous location.
> 
> 14. THE MODERN LOCATION OF ASTRAKHAN DIFFERS FROM THAT OF THE OLD TARTAR ASTRAKHAN, WHICH THE ROMANOVS APPEAR TO HAVE RAZED OUT OF EXISTENCE (https://chronologia.org/en/seven/4N14-EN-5.pdf)


I'm sure of it too. As well as Samara, Nizhny Novgorod, Tolyatti, Volgograd, Saratov-Engels and other large cities on the Volga.

But this is already too far from the topic of the branch.

UPD for KD-755.


You will not find any serious evidence from the beginning of the 20th century and earlier.

The censors (ru) ate their bread and butter for a reason. You know my position on the stolen story (I already cited it in the thread).

My opinion is based only on my life experience. Every time I'm interested in any area, the same signs pop up (for example, those indicated in this thread). And so from time to time. This is the only way to approach the study of stolen history, in my opinion. No one will give me or you any proof.

I am sure that censorship exists in developed countries as well. Only there it is more advanced than in conditional Russia. Plus, there are more contradictions in developed countries. As a result, one branch of the ruling groups can use (for example) us or anyone from real civil society in their interests against another branch of the ruling circles. When we perform (without knowing it) a task that certain ruling circles need, we will be disposed of or discredited. That's all the reasons, in my opinion, why such people (like me and many visitors to the site) can freely paint their theories on the Internet.


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## Jd755 (Jan 27, 2022)

Well took me a while but here you go Iseidon you asked for a great big hole picture and here it is;




And another six documenting the build.


















​


> he development project of the quarter, taking into account the location of the administrative building of the Ministry of Agriculture and Food of the Republic of Tatarstan, was developed on the basis of the Order of the Head of the Executive Committee of Kazan, the program and conditions of the closed competition for the best conceptual design of the development of the quarter, taking into account the location of the administrative building of the Ministry of Agriculture and Food of the Republic of Tatarstan .
> 
> The space-planning idea of the Ministry building is to harmonize it with the complex of the Kazan Kremlin and neighboring buildings. The Kazan Kremlin is a historical pearl of Kazan. Next to it, in our opinion, architecture in the style of past eras is best combined. Therefore, it was decided to design the building in the classicist style, in the spirit of Belle Epoque prevailing in the second half of the 19th century - the golden age of architecture. In order for the building not to compete with the Kazan Kremlin in the panorama of the city, it was necessary to limit it to a four-level storey and arrange it in length. The building is integrated into the slope of a fifteen-meter hill and exceeds its height by only one floor. This ensured the maximum underestimation of the building relative to the Kremlin hill.
> 
> ...



All from here

Took me longer to find these and I do not speak nor understand the Russian language but google translate and duckduckgo came in handy.
It would have been quicker but frankly I was mesmerised by the imagery on this site

Edit to add
Here is a blokes who wandered through the undergrowth behind the construction sites blog inc photographs.

Here is an old postcard type photo of the site in days long ago


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## iseidon (Jan 27, 2022)

What do these photos show (most of which I have already posted)? There is no pit.

They just partially dug out part of the hill, which was evident from the previous photos. Back then, they did not bury the building under the hill to strengthen it. So it has nothing to do with the excavation of the foundation.










This means that there is a powerful foundation below (into which piles were driven). This foundation (piling pit or ground stabilization work in the coastal area) is not visible. It can only be seen that the piles are driven into the ground. Which is not enough for the coastal area.

You gave a link to a survey of the Bogoroditsky Monastery area, and it is located a little away from the Palace of Farmers. This monastery is under renovation. I came to Kazan 3 times (2016, 2017, 2019) and each time it is half-abandoned in anticipation of reconstruction. According to Google panoramas, the situation has not changed much.





In the old photo that you brought, you can only see that there are small residential buildings. The situation is similar with the houses that interest me in Yekaterinburg.







Ural Federal University, old UrGU (ru)






Military GenSHtab (ru).







So this only reinforces my suspicions. According to my theory, these lands were specially built up with such housing so that prying eyes would not go there (in the case of Russia, first of all, foreigners who actively tried and are trying to appropriate everything that is on the territory of Russia).

And there is another area that is completely occupied by the Greenwich Shopping Center (one of the largest in Russia).





Near Greenwich, as in the case of the Palace of Farmers, there is a metro station, a monastery (ru), a stadium (ru), a circus, a shopping center in the form of a pyramid (ru, photo) (truncated), a park (ru, photo) (an arboretum with a fountain and an old restored chapel).

Is it just a coincidence?

Before the revolution, this area was occupied only by estates. And now there are officially two (at least) floors underground, numerous underground parking lots from all sides, access to the metro station, which is located at a depth of 30 meters.





And there are many more such examples in Russia.

You do not want to understand that the current level of the Volga is artificially high. That is, we need to look for the foundations that interest us at a fairly large depth, since modern buildings in Kazan are much higher than this level.





Judging by how you actively try to prove that the building was built from scratch, but at the same time not being able to prove it (just like I cannot prove the opposite), and as an example you only cite photos that do not say anything about , which is underground or a link to a survey near the lying monastery - one gets the impression that you are working for forces that are stealing this story.

I can't assume this from a user who is one of the most active on the site. So I don't know what to think.

UPD. Added old photos to objects in Yekaterinburg.


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## Blackdiamond (Jan 27, 2022)

iseidon said:


> What do these photos show (most of which I have already posted)? There is no pit.
> 
> They just partially dug out part of the hill, which was evident from the previous photos. Back then, they did not bury the building under the hill to strengthen it. So it has nothing to do with the excavation of the foundation.
> 
> ...



Perhaps this user you refer to is only trying to make you work harder.


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## iseidon (Jan 27, 2022)

Here is a photo of what type, I could be convinced. There is nothing like the Palace of Farmers.





This is the construction of a new building in the historical center of Voronezh. The link (ru) shows the real process of laying the foundation in close proximity to historical buildings.

At the same time, construction is not carried out in the coastal region.


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## Jd755 (Jan 27, 2022)

So now you get into me the person not the information I have posted.
You have provided no evidence whatsoever that supports your opinions nor your theory of water level changes in the rivers that meet at Kazan.
As I am not living in Kazan or Russia and can neither read nor speak Russian I have to rely on the internet as in search engine duckduckgo and googles translation service to uncover things.

During all my searches which are nothing more than putting search strings into the search engines which arrive at through asking myself the question "what is the most likely explanation?", I have not come across a scrap of evidence be it pictorial or documentary that supports your opinions.

On the balance of what I have discovered, all presented here for everyone's perusal, shows me the buried pre existing foundation theory is a nonsense, without supporting evidence.

You yourself claim such evidence will not be found due to the state secrecy etc in Russia so this means you are left with opinions and theories.
Me I prefer the balance of available evidence as the method of determining the likely reality.

In light of that I can see no point in going any further with this investigation unless you or someone else turns up any evidence which throws doubt on the way this building went up and presents it here.


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## iseidon (Jan 27, 2022)

kd-755 said:


> You have provided no evidence whatsoever that supports your opinions nor your theory of water level changes in the rivers that meet at Kazan.


I agree with most of your post. With one exception.

The fact that the level of the river has risen significantly, I knew before. But didn't you yourself post photos in this thread that indicate that a significant part of Kazan was flooded?

Or do you think that the flooding of such a large part of the territory will not affect the level of the river in any way?

Since you think (you yourself posted a photo with the old Volga bed) that the flooding of the territories does not lead to a rise in the water level, I will post the relevant photos here.












I will say more, they flooded the river for a reason.

In connection with the industrial growth under Stalin, it was necessary to provide industrial and populated areas with water, which was done by expanding the riverbeds and creating a chain of reservoirs.

Now in Russia there are practically no personnel left who are engaged in the regulation of the river water balance (and in other industries too, except for the extraction of resources and banking services), and industrial and human needs have not decreased, but only increased.

Therefore, we are now observing a process when the inland rivers across Russia are becoming shallow everywhere. So soon, perhaps, we will see a drop in the level of a number of rivers.


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## Boudicca (Jan 28, 2022)

Citezenship said:


> They are always screwing with us, always.
> 
> 65-Foot Bronze Tree Grows in Russia’s “Palace of Farmers” Archway
> 
> ...


that dome, tree & green light is the ugliest thing I've seen in a very long time.


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## wommak (Jan 29, 2022)

(PDF) Development of a permanent geological environment model of Kazan city aimed to solve various engineering-geological problems (Russia)


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