# Meta history - Who provides the data?



## feralimal (Sep 14, 2020)

If you search for who has the largest old map collection, you may be directed to David Rumsey's at: David Rumsey Historical Map Collection | The Collection. 

When you look into who David Rumsey is though:
David Rumsey - Wikipedia

the second para reads as follows:
"Rumsey has a Bachelor of Arts and a Master of Fine Arts from Yale University and was a founding member of Yale Research Associates in the Arts also known as PULSA, a group of artists working with electronic technologies. He was also a 1966 initiate into the Skull and Bones Society,[1] before becoming Associate Director of the American Society for Eastern Arts in San Francisco. Later, he entered a 20-year career in real estate development and finance during which he had a long association with Charles Feeney's General Atlantic Holding Company of New York and served as President and Director of several of its real estate subsidiaries; General Atlantic eventually became the Atlantic Philanthropies, a Bermuda-based philanthropic foundation that is one of the world's largest charities."

So, he's a Yaley bonesman, who founded a research group of artists working with electronic media, and now has the largest old map collection in the world.  The implications of this sort of thing does NOT warm the cockles of my heart when it comes to being able to trust historical data.

I'm new to this site, but is this info well known?  Should we trust this source?

	Post automatically merged: 8/30/19



Feralimal said:


> The implications of this sort of thing does NOT warm the cockles of my heart when it comes to being able to trust historical data.


I know it's probably bad form to respond to one's own thread, but I thought perhaps it would be useful to explain specifically what the implications are.

* This guy owns loads of old maps.
* He puts them online and makes them available for free.
* He is likely directly connected to those groups that appear to be running the show.
* He appers to be somewhat of pioneer of electronic technologies.
* He managed a group of artists that used electronic technologies.
* He has serious financial resources.

Putting all this together could mean that *he could literally alter the maps* of the historical terrain.

If, 30 years ago, he wanted to add references to a place that didn't exist on maps in 1980, he could do so.  He could remove places.  Merge maps.  Copy the style of one map and create a new one.  Etc, etc.

This case is plain to follow, and the implications are serious.

One question is how much more of this sort of thing goes on.  It would surely not be an isolated case.  It would extend to other maps, photos, books etc - any digital sources can only be trusted so far.

The concern I have is that if this sort of thing is happening - and it certainly seems like a plausible hypothesis - it does have repurcussions for us.  How much should we trust this data?  How much are we following a trail that has been set out for us to find?





> Note: This OP was recovered from the Wayback Archive.





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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: AnotherLifeDate: 2019-09-03 03:26:39Reaction Score: 2


This makes me feel ill. I can't believe you haven't gotten any other feedback on this. The implications are extremely disturbing and it certainly doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility. Honestly, nothing really does anymore. I'm certainly going to try to find out more about him, his company, and his maps.


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## KD Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: KorbenDallasDate: 2019-09-03 03:59:36Reaction Score: 3


I believe there are only a few he is the sole proprietor of. Kind of like the 1587 Urbano Monte’s map. 

There are always other maps to corroborate the findings. That said it does not mean those maps are not altered or made up either. At the same time it’s impossible to fake everything. The key is to look at multiple issuing sources.


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## feralimal (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: FeralimalDate: 2019-09-03 07:39:41Reaction Score: 5




AnotherLife said:


> This makes me feel ill. I can't believe you haven't gotten any other feedback on this. The implications are extremely disturbing and it certainly doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility. Honestly, nothing really does anymore. I'm certainly going to try to find out more about him, his company, and his maps.


Thanks.  Absolutely it's a downer.  But I'm after the truth so have to consider all the possibilities.  The story on this guy is so obvious - it really took very little investigation - it does make you wonder what we can say is true.

My position is that while you can disprove a lie, you cannot prove the truth.  You can pattern match perhaps, to gain a better understanding of what history was, but if the control is extensive enough, this could lead you to dismiss 'truth' in favor of breadcrumb trails.  If whoever runs the show really is as powerful as all that, it is possible that they do contain the entire scenarios we find ourselves in, at least enough so that we can't sure.  It's very deflating to have to lose that trust, but in the name of trying to uncover the truth I am prepared to do so.

My final position is probably that of a hardcore skeptic summed up as so: truth without personal experience is a hoax.


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## JWW427 (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: JWW427Date: 2019-09-03 18:20:12Reaction Score: 11


Firstly, I wouldn't trust him at all.
My quick-draw gut feeling.

"Skull and Bones" is Chapter 333 of the *German Thule Society*, which has Nazi connections with Himmler and the SS. Bush family, Rockeffelers, Morgans, Duponts, etc. The fraternity seeks out business-as-usual and fascist-minded conservatives in an aggressive, occult-driven way.
"Scroll & Key" is another scholarly and high-minded Yale "ultra conservative" secret society for blue-bloodline men. My Grandfather was a member. He was a fascist and militarist.

No offense to any Ivy-League members here, but...
Ivy League schools––in general––are for rich elites, Committee of 300 illuminati old money kids, and a few "unlucky" scholarship folks. _Wink-wink_. Huge endowments in the billions. Old secret societies by the score.
The fancier the school, the deeper the bullshit pile, the deeper the pit of lies, in my personal opinion. Important rich kids need much sturdier reinforcement of our false reality and history than average folks because they go on to powerful careers with even more powerful connections. They could do real damage to the almighty status quo, but extremely few hear the call to do so. Money is all about control. A titanium fist in an iron glove.

This guy ticks all the boxes.
Given his real estate success and apparent net worth, he is most likely a "genius" status quo gatekeeper of the highest sort, and would not entertain any alternative views on anything. I would say he is in the business of historical obfuscation and remanufacture. He is dangerous and well-connected.
I could be wrong, but I know lots of these types of people, and most are arrogant sods that will stop at nothing to win an argument or debate, public or private. Failure at this is NOT an option; victory is ingrained in their psyche. Their Yale-Harvard-Stamford-Princeton egos require lots of maintenance by design. Awards and scholarly titles are GOD. In their superior Ivy League eyes of intellectual malice, YOU are nothing.
If this guy saw an old map of Tartaria, he'd laugh, rip it up, and rename it "Trashcanistan."

_*Stamford:*
"Collector, author, entrepreneur, and *philanthropist* David Rumsey was an early and pioneering spokesperson and practitioner of innovative geospatial techniques and visualization technologies *that grant global scholarly access* to his more than 150,000 maps, atlases, globes, school geographies, and maritime charts.  His extraordinary combination of curatorial and technical expertise benefitted many libraries, foundations, companies and organizations and he was honored by numerous prestigious awards and appointments. His donation of the David Rumsey Map Collection is the greatest benefice in the Libraries’ history and forms the nucleus of the *David Rumsey Map Center* in Green Library."_

Then again, I like to take the high road with people. He could be a closet alternative historian, but keeps it secret lest he be ostracized by his inquisitional peers. That happens more than we think. Some of our best minds have kowtowed to their academic "betters" despite having an open mind and a heart of decency. History is strewn with their corpses. Remember Galileo?


This is my usual long answer to a short question, but we–––everyone here and those in the overall disclosure movement at large–––could be looking at the face of one our our fiercest opponents.

JWW


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## BStankman (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BStankmanDate: 2019-09-04 10:30:49Reaction Score: 9


In the digital age one has to wonder why we do not have the _Vatican library_ available at out fingertips.

It would seem a simple task to put some seminary students and interns on some scanners and we could have several lifetimes of documents to review.
The bottleneck could likely be the availability of trusted gatekeepers to review edit and approve what is released.



JWW427 said:


> these types of people, and most are arrogant sods that will stop at nothing to win an argument or debate


They are highly arrogant, but not infallible.  When things slip through you see the evidence of the game.

 
We have had a few of them show up here, mock us about at their private book collections, and their version of history we are not allowed access to.
No answers or documents, just insults and possibly more false paths.
Real or as altered as ours, it should be concerning that they have an alternate version of history available only to them.


Feralimal said:


> truth without personal experience is a hoax.


This is probably more in line with Searching.  Are you entirely sure you can trust your perception?
It has been molded and shaped by controllers your entire life from the moment your mother turned on a television for you.
And probably before, as she was a product of the public education system.

I have been to historic sites in person.  Looked at blocks, the chisel marks, and been convinced they were made of quarried stone.
Only to later review the digital images I took myself and and wonder how I clearly missed all the signs that these were actually cast from concrete.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: Red BirdDate: 2019-09-04 14:23:51Reaction Score: 8



Wilder, Wealthy, and Wise


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## feralimal (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: FeralimalDate: 2019-09-04 20:20:26Reaction Score: 7




BStankman said:


> Are you entirely sure you can trust your perception?


Good question.  I absolutely believe I can be fooled.  I can be hypnotised and see things that aren't there.  What was my education?  What is the point of carrying on as we do, go to work, get tired, get money, waste time, etc.  Was I fooled into taking those actions?  Where was my perception?

What I'm writing here can be read as negative and pessimistic, even if I don't feel that way.  I'm probably happier being where I am, as it feels more like solid ground at least.  I have had to ditch many assumptions that seemed essential.  Such as extending trust to some external force, eg government, authorities, other people.  And their photos and maps.  Reflecting on the wasted time/bs ideas in one way, I can say that I wouldn't have chosen to spend my time being lead up a garden path (a path that seems to successfully divert most of humanity).  Ie that time was a waste.  Of course, in another way nothing is a waste, and I wouldn't have known what I now know without having gone that way.

I think most people here would agree that the standard education did not in fact educate us, but misled us.  We were given a half-arsed narrative, that with only a cursory glance is full of holes.  This site shows those holes multiple times every day!  It proves many of the things we were told cannot be.  The grand narrative we were taught took most of us however waaay too long to spot, no?  Why is that?

My view is that we love a story.  One story, or another..  His story, her story, our story   We love them all and fill in the blanks.

For a story we will assume all sorts of things.  What evidence do we have that energy was free in that past, that Tartaria existed and was some sort of paradise, or giants, or for religion and its artifacts, or any of it?  On the other hand, what evidence do we have of the powers who run the show and the nefarious history we were given?

There is data/evidence out there for sure.. But is that evidence driving the narrative, or is the narrative driving the evidence?  Is this how it has always been and how we are wherever we are now?

Back to your question:


BStankman said:


> Are you entirely sure you can trust your perception?


No, I can't.

Can I say what my assumptions are?  Mostly not, though maybe with effort..  

Can I even say that my personal experience is driving my thoughts and actions now?  Have I deprogrammed myself?  Possibly not fully, no. 

Are others able to fill in the blanks for me?  Possibly, but less so than previously.


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## wild heretic (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: wild hereticDate: 2019-09-05 13:29:15Reaction Score: 5




BStankman said:


> In the digital age one has to wonder why we do not have the _Vatican library_ available at out fingertips.
> 
> It would seem a simple task to put some seminary students and interns on some scanners and we could have several lifetimes of documents to review.
> The bottleneck could likely be the availability of trusted gatekeepers to review edit and approve what is released.
> ...


The biggest problem for me is less the authenticity and more the time and language skills needed to sort through mountains of books etc. It's amazing what Korben finds on Google Books alone. So by and large the info is there, it is just that we have to find it and make sense of it.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: StarmonkeyDate: 2019-11-16 17:25:07Reaction Score: 0


Searching for a blow up of that Urbano Monte map. Showed up in Pinterest. Got the little island in the middle... Jon Levi brought it up again...

	Post automatically merged: 11/16/19

And, is anyone familiar with the luo-pan? Chinese Oracle or divination device? Circular like those maps. Moves like the map in PotC, where they go off the edge of the world...


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## HollyHoly (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: HollyHolyDate: 2019-11-17 04:11:43Reaction Score: 1


I'm glad you made this thread I've been suspecting this very thing for awhile. Seems 'new finds that change everything about history" pop up nearly everyday now. If it isn't a new dinosaur its and old manuscript or a new Human ancestor,a  map  or a  large jumble of new Egyptian coffins.  the list goes on forever. It seems these so called miraculous artifacts all have a curious backstory ,found in a street bizarre  or by by a donkey falling in a hole etc.. It appears as though every time they need support to propel the propaganda .Presto ! there it is.  Im not even surprised there is a Skull and Bones connection to all this but its awesome that you did the research and brought it to light.  There are private libraries belonging to royal estates and whatnot ,there may very well be old maps in them. Ive been suspecting this map collection for awhile just because they're so complete and  to perfect etc. Of course he can alter them and why would any of these guys put out truth just altruistically 'for the people" ? They wouldn't.  The one thing about TPTB  that I  absolutely know is, they don't care about humanity at all. So that these maps are a psy-op is very possible.


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## feralimal (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: FeralimalDate: 2019-11-17 08:03:14Reaction Score: 1




HollyHoly said:


> found in a street bizarre or by by a donkey falling in a hole etc


.. or found in a rubbish dump by scholars from Oxford or Cambridge...



HollyHoly said:


> It appears as though every time they need support to propel the propaganda .Presto ! there it is.


I personally think there are at least 2 dynamics.  One is to mislead.  The other is tourism.  I've not seen tourism with maps but artifacts and even new sites are definitely conveniently created IMO.  Egypt provides great examples of this.


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## HollyHoly (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: HollyHolyDate: 2019-11-17 15:47:44Reaction Score: 1




Feralimal said:


> .. or found in a rubbish dump by scholars from Oxford or Cambridge...
> 
> 
> I personally think there are at least 2 dynamics.  One is to mislead.  The other is tourism.  I've not seen tourism with maps but artifacts and even new sites are definitely conveniently created IMO.  Egypt provides great examples of this.


Thats true!! they want you to look at their 'canned" wonders so you don't think about the ones they cant explain.  Perfect example "Fake Henge? I mean Stone Henge. Which somehow everything  found in Britain relates to LOL!!


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## _harris (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: 0harris0Date: 2019-11-25 14:01:59Reaction Score: 0




HollyHoly said:


> Perfect example "Fake Henge? I mean Stone Henge. Which somehow everything  found in Britain relates to LOL!!


why and how is stone henge "fake"?
does that also mean Avebury stone circle is fake? are the Stanton Drew stone circles also fake?
all in the same sort of area... I guess all the ancient sites around here are also "fake" too as they're from the same time?

feel free to p.m me if you need any more information, I live round these parts, those stone circles are definitely correctly named. Circles of stones. That's what they are


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## Rhayader (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: RhayaderDate: 2019-11-25 14:21:47Reaction Score: 1


I think because what we see as Stonehenge today is mostly a 19th century reconstruction is why it's considered a fake and propping up some narrative.


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## _harris (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: 0harris0Date: 2019-11-25 18:21:08Reaction Score: 1




Rhayader said:


> I think because what we see as Stonehenge today is mostly a 19th century reconstruction is why it's considered a fake and propping up some narrative.


why then, are there 1800s photographs showing it in a very similar state to modern times?

there is plenty of information available about what they did there in the 1920s and 1960s restoration efforts!

and what narrative, exactly? that they don't actually know when it was built, or who by? same narrative as every pre-roman site in the uk. no writing, no trace of the "builders", just historical guesswork with no foundations


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## feralimal (Oct 17, 2022)

I just happened to watch this short Aewar + wooden Nickels video, where they reverse-image search a couple of images, to show how these are faked:

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_8PDTnZCTc&t=116s_


... and it reminded me of this thread.  I know I started this focussed in on maps specifically, but I think the principle holds for imagery and videos too.  I know that there will always be 'photoshop chancers' out there who will create pics/videos for a moment of notoriety, but I think it is also possible (probable, even) that there are groups out there seeding false digital artifacts intentionally.



feralimal said:


> * This guy owns loads of old maps.
> * He puts them online and makes them available for free.
> * He is likely directly connected to those groups that appear to be running the show.
> * He appers to be somewhat of pioneer of electronic technologies.
> ...



I could say:


> Putting all this together could mean that he could literally alter *or create* the maps, *pictures and videos* of the historical terrain.​



I see no reason why David Rumsey and co couldn't also be editing photos, etc - it would actually be easier than maps, as maps require a lot more background context to be viable.

This also relates to another thread of mine - where we are shown a 300 acre studio that must have been there for decades - on a military base!
: Real architecture but an old stage?

If you were in the business of controlling/creating information to control people's frame of reference, how useful would it be to have a group of digital artists at the advent of the technological age, or a 300 acre set with lots of accurate, historic buildings?!?  Pretty useful, I'd say..


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