# Tartaria, a short history and dissection of its people



## Mabzynn (Apr 26, 2021)

So at one point in our history the following information was considered elementary level geography.

From: *Modern and ancient elementary geography. Volume 1.*
_1772_

_Géographie élémentaire moderne et ancienne._



We understand under this general name all the northern part of Asia, that is, to say, all that is in the North of Persia, India & China, as far as the Glacial Sea, & what the Ancients also generally called Scythia or Country of the Scythians. We have said that Scythe means skillful in drawing from the Bow: Tartar or -Tatar means Master of Land. It’s only been around 600 years the later name is in use, and it appears to have been first given to a particular people that became powerful.


Qualities. This vast Country alone occupies half of Asia; but it is far from being as fertile and as populous as the other half. The northern part is filled with Woods and Mountains, covered with snow and ice for three quarters of the year, and the Earth is uncultivated. The southern part enjoys a milder climate, but it contains vast sandy deserts & there is no fertile soil, is not yet cultivated there. Most of the inhabitants live by robbery, or are content with pastures, lead a life of Shepherds.
Productions. We find to the north a lot of polar bears, black foxes , a number of ermines, sable martens, and other animals, whose furs are highly esteemed, which makes the principal trade of the country. In the Middle, it comes from the villages, Rice, Fruit, and especially the best Rhubarb: we also get the most esteemed Musk.



Revolutions. There is no question here of Empire nor of flourishing Kingdom. The Tartars knew at all times what to do in war, to hunt, or to lead herds, and they had for the most part no fixed abode. But there is, successes had made some among them powerful people, who made themselves famous by their ravages & their conquests. Such! are the Huns, who desolated Europe * - in the fifth Century, under the leadership of Attila; the Turks, who founded the Ottoman Empire; the Tartars yes Moguls who seized Persia from India & finally the Mantchéous which are today in China.  Part of Tartary has been conquered since 1554 by the Russians; one other by the Chinese people, since Tartars have mastered China & the rest is occupied by different Free peoples, who each have their own Prince or Kan.




Government. The Kans of the Tartars are despotic, their Crown is hereditary, their income consists in the 1/10th they take on all the goods of their Subjects. Their States are divided by Hordes or Tribes: each Horde is subdivided by Families, & each Family is governed by a Head, who is called Murse. These Walls are the Generals & Counselors of the Kans.

Religion. The Tartars, neighbors of Turkey & Persia, are Islamic. There are some Christians in the North & in the South; but most of the Peoples are Idolaters, & their Priests are called Lamas.

Morals. The Tartars generally have a swarthy complexion, a broad, flat face, a crushed nose, black and frizzy hair , and very little beard. Those who live to the north are, for the most part, still wild. The Mahometans are cruel, lazy & thieves; but the Peoples of the middle of the Earth live peacefully from the product of their herds. All have retained the customs of the ancient Scythians: they dress in animal skins, feed mainly on horse milk, & live in tents or in carts.

​Division. The Grand Tartaria divides it into three main parts; known, the Russian Tartary, in the North; the Chinese Tartary , & the independent Tartary in the South. We will repeat these different Parties separately, continuing with the Chinese.

​This Part is in the North of China, - from which it is separated by the Great Wall , & it is occupied by two powerful and belligerent Nations , the Mantcheous in the East, & the Mogols in the West.

The Mantchéous are the Peoples who conquered China in mid-seventeenth Century: they worship Heaven, or the Emperor of Heaven, but they have neither Temples nor Idols. Their Country is quite fertile towards the South: there is fishing for Pearls on the Coasts to the East; & there are also several fairly large cities, which they have built since they entered China.

The main of these Cities are Chinyang, Kirin, Oula & Tcitcicar, Capitals of so many Chinese Governments.

​Chinese. A path to Chinyang the magnificent Mausoleum of Xunchi, Conqueror of China.

The Mugales who inhabit the Western part, are the Descendants of the old Mogols, so famous in the thirteenth Century, under Genghiskan. They are divided into two Nations, which are called Mongous or Black Mugales, & Kalkas or Yellow Mugales; & they are separated from each other by a vast Desert, called Cobi or Chamo. Their Religion is the same as that of the Lamas.

*1761 Zhe-hol: Poo-Ta-La Temple in Tartary*​
The Mongols are near the Great Wall, & Tributaries of China: they live under Tents made of skins, & the Chinese call them Point Tartares for that.

*The great Tartar wall in China** (Great Wall of China separating Chinese Foreign Occupied Tartaria with the remaining Indepedent Tartaria)*​
The Kalkas live in Tents or in Chariots, and feed large herds of Horses, Camels, Cows & Sheep: they do not pay Tribute & their Kan is highly regarded in China.



The: Independent tartary is located in the interior & towards the middle of Asia & it is so named, because it is not subject to foreign Powers , like the two other parts of Tartary. She has her Princes and particular Kans; & we distinguish;four principal Countries, to know: the Country of the Eluths or Calmouks, in the North of India; the Land of the Usbeks, to the North: of Persia; ls Turquejlan, northof the Usbeks; & Circassia to the West of Turquestan, from which it is separated by: the Caspian Sea.

Land of the Eluths. This Country is the most considerable state of the Tartars. It is 600 leagues long by 400 wide; of Genghiskan, who takes the title of, Contaisch or Grand-Kan & we can look at it as a remnant of the Empire of this famous Conqueror.  Relative to the different Peoples who inhabit this Country, we divide it into: four parts, which are Calmôuquie in the North, the small Bukarie in the West , the Countries of Turfan & Friend the East, & Tibet or Boutan in the Middle.

Calmouquie is the former Land of Eluths or Calmouks, who submitted; the Yoisins, & which are originally Mongales or Mogols. We see neither Towns, Villages, nor Cultivated Lands. Only busy feeding Herds, Calmouks are constantly wandering, almost always on horseback, & living only in tents. They are the most courageous & the most warlike of the Tartars, & they have a peculiar figure which distracts them, the flat turned, the crushed nose, small eyes, large ears, almost no beard, & only a toupee of hair which they keep at the top of the head. They are Idolaters, & the Head of their Religion is a Kutuktu, or Vicar of the Dalai Lama of Tibet. We note as the Capital of their Country Harcas which is a large Camp where the Contaisch(Kan) ordinarily resides.

The small Bukarie is thus called to distinguish it from the Large, which is nearby, and which is part of the Land of the Usbeks. Its inhabitants are natives of the country, who are nothing like the Tartars. They live in Towns & Villages, cultivate the Lands, do Trade, & exercise all: kinds of Trades. Their Religion is the Islamic, & their Capital City; is Yerken "on a river of the same Muks. These Peoples regard him as a Divinity, & believe him immortal: we come to him from all sides with great presents to worship him & consult him: also his Palace is magnificently furnished, gold shines from all sides, and he himself is covered with jewels. When he dies, the Laamas replace him with another who resembles him , where they persuade the People that his soul animates another body, reading the doctrine of Metempsychosis, to which all these Idolaters are attached. The Religion of these Lamas, which is widespread at the eastern endof Asia, is a mixture of Idolatry, of Superstitions, with some Ceremonies similar to those of Christians, like Holy Water,Song in Divine Service, & Prayers for the Dead.


​
Land of the Usbeks. It is in the North of the Loss, between the Land of Calmouks & the Caspian Sea, it responds to what was formerly called Sogdiane or Baciriane. It is the most fertile part & the best cultivated of Tartary. There is a considerable River named Amu or Gihon, in which the cross; all its extent. We see great Wineries, well built & commercial, & its inhabitants pass for the most polished & the most knowledgeable of the Tartares.

It is necessary to distinguish among these Peoples, the old Naturals of the Country, which one names Sarts & Bukares; they are all Merchants, and they are the ones who inhabit the Cities. A part of the Usbeks cultivate the Lands, & they remain in Hamlets; others fed on their cattle, and they lodged in huts, which they transport side by side to others. All, in general, are good warriors, and their very wives often go to war with them.

We divide their country into two main parts , which are the Great Bukaria in the East, and Karasm in the West, and we distinguish there four Tribes or
Kingdoms, which are governed by as many Kans. These Kingdoms each bear the name of their Capital City, which are Samarcand, Balk, Bukara & Urghens.

Samarkand is a very ancient city, which was formerly very large & the Capital of the Empire of Tamerlane. It is still today connderable, oneof the most marketable in the East, & very famous by an Academy of Sciences, where one comes to study from all sides. There is a Tissue Paper Factory , the most beautiful in all of Asia.

*(Side note Tissue Paper was not "invented" until 1857 with its patent). Strange.*

Balk, formerly called Bactria,is a large & beautiful city, remarkable for a Kan Castle, which is almost entirely of marble. Bukara is very commercial, especially in excellent dried fruits, for which it supplies Persia and all Mogol.

Urghens is the capital of Karasm, but not very significant today. The Kan there lies the Winter & spend the summer in a Camp named Chiva and more at noon. For this, the Russians call the inhabitants of the Karalm Tartars of Chiva.

Turquefian. This country took its name from the Turks, who used to live there, and who were long masters of a large part of Tartary. It is shared today between two Kans of Tartars Mahometans, who are called Kasats or Kasatchia- HordcZj & Mankats or Kara-Kalpalcs. These Peoples cultivate land only as long as it takes for their subsistence; their main trade is piracy,, & they go without that to make races on the grounds of: their Neighbors. They live in Villages> & Cities, but not very significant. The main ones make Taskunt, where the Kan of the Kasats resides in Winter, & Tunkat one resides the Kan of the Kara-Kalpaks. These two cities are on the Sirr River, formerly named Jaxartes which flows into Lake Arall. '

Circassia. This Country is located to the West of the Caspian Sea, & at the foot of Mount Caucasus, which separates it in the South of Georgia & Persia. he contains Dagestan, Circassia proper, & several free Peoples who inhabit the Mountains.

The Dagestan, near the Caspian Sea, is inhabited by Tartars, who are very ugly, very wild, and big birds (not big birds- great thieves*). They are Mahometans, & subject to Princes of their Nation. It is a law among them that one cannot marry without having planted a hundred fruit trees; as a result they have all kinds of Fruits in abundance. They also have many flocks, but they leave the hay to their wives.

Circassia proper contains different Peoples, who each have their Kan; know, the little Nogais> the Koubans the Cabardinians & the Petigorians. The Peoples make a great trade in Horses, very ugly people to tell the truth, but with extraordinary agility; they apply, for the most part to Agriculture, and are less cruel than their Neighbors. What is quite remarkable is that the Men are all very ugly, and their Women perfectly beautiful. Their main city is Terki near the Caspian Sea.

The other Peoples, who inhabit the surrounding areas of the Caucasus, are the Abases, the Alanes, the Ziques. They are free, independent, & the greatest thieves of all Tartars. The Ziques, in particular, supply the Turks with Slaves.



​This part of Tartary occupies all of northern Asia, from the borders of Europe to the Straight which separates Asia from America. It is as
extensive as the other two Tartaries taken together, but more advanced towards the North, she is even more sterile & uncultivated & the inhabitants are rude and savage. The Russians began their conquest in 1554 they made considerable establishments there in different places, and they
finally forced all the Peoples to pay them tribute.

We divide this extended nation into two main parts; one Western, watered by the Volga & the Jaik, which go to the Caspian Sea & the other Eastern, watered by the Rivers which flow into the Glacial Sea. These two parts are separated from each other by a chain of Mountains called Karmenoi-Poyas.

Western part. It is the first conquest of the Russians in Asia, & it was inhabited in the fifteenth century by famous Tartars called Kipjaks, to which the Russians themselves have been stolen for 300 years. It is divided into three Governments or Provinces, which each bear the name of their capitals; known, Astrakan, Orenburg & Kasan.

The Government of Astrakhan, near the Caspian Sea, was once the home of the Huns & the Avars before they passed through Europe. is inhabited
today by the Nogais, on whom the Russians conquered it, by Calmukes who came to settle there at the beginning of this Century, & by Russians, who are there in great numbers. Aftrakan its Capital, is in an Isle of Volga, near its Mouth in the Caspian Sea. It is well populated, and there is a great trade there, especially with the Pearl.

The Orenburg Government is inhabited by two kinds of Tartars,which are called Bafchkires & Ufimkes. They are in the Volga & the Jaik,
northeast of Astrakhan, & that's where the Hungarians come to Europe to end of the ninth century. Orenburg - the capital of this country, is a new
city built in 1738 on the Jaik. There are a large number of Persians who have taken refuge there, and the Bukares come to traffic there.

The Government of Kasan is in the north of Astrakhan, near the Volga, and seems to be the former country of the Bulgarians who came to inhabit the banks of the Black Sea. The Tartars, who are there today, are called Tscheremisses, Wotiaks & Morduanes. The town of Kasan is located on the Volga shortly after the exit from Russia; it is quite rich & well populated, & there is a strong Citadel, into which the Tartars are forbidden to enter, under penalty of life.

Eastern part. This part is called Siberia, after the name of an ancient City where Tartar Sovereigns once lived. It is the coldest country of all known lands: the rivers are covered with ice there most of the year, & snow often falls there from the month of September until the month of May. The
southern part produces a few grains during the short time that summer lasts but beyond the 6o degree, sees no production, not even Trees. All the resources of the Peoples consist in Hunting, Fishing, or the Herds which they fed. There are a number of wild beasts of all kinds, and this is the greatest wealth of the Country: their skins are used to cover the inhabitants, to pay their tribute, & to procure them other necessary things , by the trade they make. Towards the Glacial Sea, all these Beasts turn white during the Winter, as do some of the Birds. We distinguish in Siberia three
kinds of inhabitants, the most ancient the Tartars & the Russians.

The ancient inhabitants are rude, wild, idolatrous men, and most of them very ugly: they are divided into different Peoples, the main ones
being: The Samoyeds, who live on the shores of the Glacial Sea, from Arkhangel to the mouth of the Léna. They are quite similar to the Lapps, but
uglier yet, and the dumbest in all of Siberia.

The Ostiakes, along the Obi, Irtiche & Tobol Rivers . Theyare also very stupid, & than to feed dogs to pull their sleds & for hunting.

The Tongouses, Very numerous people, towards the upper part of the Lena. They are quite lively & cheerful, & they draw blue figures on their faces, by means of a thread which they sew there. They are the ones who provide the most beautiful skins.

The Yakuts, towards the lower part of the Lena. They are fairly similar to the Calmouks, and are said to be the most spiritual of Siberia. Their
Idols are made of Cloth & Dolls.

Les Korekes les Olutorskes & les Tzutzches, towards the Eastern end of Asia. These are ferocious peoples, which the Russians have not yet been able to subdue. The latter wear Sea Cow teeth in each cheek, pierced for this effect from childhood.

Finally, the Kamtschadales in the South of the previous ones, & in a long isle called Kamchatka. They are quite civilized, and dress in the skins
of Dogs, the only Animals among them. Jéniséa, where there are great Deserts. They were formerly the masters of Western Siberia, before the conquest made by the Russians, and there remained a very large number. They make Idolaters & Mahometans, but quite peaceful, & paying
their tribute exaftement . They have their particular Kans, & live in their own way, Herds which they feed.

The Russians established in this Country make, for the greater part, Sons of Exiles, Exiles themselves, or of Merchants who have done their
business badly in Russia. They are extremely lazy, delivered to all kinds of debauchery & they lead, for the most part, a life as miserable as the Indians among whom they live. They are the ones who built the Cities & Towns that we see today in this Country in quite a large number. The main cities are:

Tobolsk on the Irtiche River, which flows into the Oby. This City is the Capital of all Siberia, the Seat of a Governor General & an Archbishop, & the warehouse of all the Trade of Russians in India & It is 550 leagues to the East of St. Petersburg.

Jéniféisk quite large, well populated city on the Jéniféa" in the Orient of Tobolsk.

lrkutsk, on the Angara j south-east of Jéniséisk. It is a city of the most considerable of the whole country: there is a Deputy Governor & a Bishop; &
there is a great trade there, because of the passage of the Caravans which go to China. It should be noted at a distance from this City, Lake Baikal,
which is about 140 leagues long, on 5 to 6 wide, & which is surrounded by mountains.

Sélinginsk, in the East of Irkutsk, is the place from where the Caravans leave for China.

Nertching, on the Amur, plus to the East, is renowned for its rich silver mines which are in its vicinity, in Argun.

Ochota is a Seaport, in the North of Tartary China, where the Russians, embark to go to Kamchatka.

Avatcha & Kamtchatka, are two other ports in the peninsula of Kamtchatka, from where the Russians left in 1741, to go and discover the coasts
of North-West America.

It was known today, by these Russian Navigations, that America is advancing towards the Eastern Point of Siberia, and that it is only separated from it by a straight about 30 leagues wide. This straight is sometimes frozen for part of the year, and the inhabitants of the two continents can communicate with each other. It is easy to see from there how America was populated from the beginning, & before the first Navigations.




So, that's a lot of information to unpack. *(Russian section added above)*

My conclusions feel free to comment:  This summary provides a really nice way to connect a lot of the ideas and threads posted on this forum. The reason for the different names to the regions of Tartaria was identifying control by foreign powers so it's safe to say the remainder of Independent Tartary at this time fell to the Chinois at a date later than 1772.  It states Russian Tartaria went all the way to the Anian straight where it connected with America.

This text explains the CIA document discussing the Russian destruction of Tartar history because until reading this I had not realized those old names on the maps were showing foreign control of Tartary.

So... was there a remaining Independent Tartaria in the Americas?  The maps seem to indicate it.

I know we don't like to talk about current affairs but it truly shows what is happening right now.  Wars from the Caucus throughout the middle East to Central Asia. You have white Islamic Caucasians from the Caucus region going to Afghanistan (Bactria) to fight against occupying forces. Chinese clean up of the Uighurs that even the main stream is reporting on.  The weird situation in Tibet and the current fuckery of the active Dalai Lama saying he is going to stop reincarnating after himself.... The clean up is on-going and happening in front of our faces.





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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2020-01-01 15:07:06Reaction Score: 1


Many thanks for the translation. Do you have a link to this book?


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## Mabzynn (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: MabzynnDate: 2020-01-01 15:09:54Reaction Score: 3




jd755 said:


> Many thanks for the translation. Do you have a link to this book?


Yessir editing into the original as well - Géographie élémentaire moderne et ancienne. Tome 1 / , contenant les principes de la géographie, une description générale du globe, & un détail particulier de l'Europe & de la France. Par J. N. Buache, de la Neuville | Gallica


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: StarmonkeyDate: 2020-01-01 16:32:00Reaction Score: 1


Finally everyone can stop rampant suppositioning and fantasizing.
SYLVIE included.
omg
Wild at heart and weird on top.
We been monkeyin all over this place for awhile now.


Tathagata for you there. Probably not the correct kanji, but...
There's your pass


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2020-01-01 16:39:30Reaction Score: 6


Using startpage and google translate plus various search strings to find out more about the author of this book. Reason being If this was a text book in use in France then it must haave had Catholic approval as the Catholics were the educators of the day, as far as I've been able to ascertain so the content must fit in with the Catholic dogma.

His name was Jean-Nicolas Buache
He was the Director of this Royal French Navy department from
The deposit of charts and plans of the Navy is a cartographic service created in 1720 by the Regent
The book was published in 1772 so well before he became Director.
Interesting that Gallica's page lists his only career of note as being the Director of the Deposits of Charts and Plans of the Navy.

Although from his list of works on Gallica he must have alsi been a cartographer.
From Gallica;
_Map of part of southern France discovered on February 13, 1772, by Mr. Kerguelin lieutenant de Vaisseaux (1776) with Jean-Nicolas Buache (1741-1825) as copyist_

And,
_Plan of the Southern Lands discovered in 1772, by Mr. de St. Allouarn Commander of the Flute du Roy le Gros Ventre (1776) with Jean-Nicolas Buache (1741-1825) as Copyist_

So was a copyist not a cartographer as in the creator or compiler of a map, so too speak, four years after the book was published.
Is it likely a copyist would author a text book?

Seems he most likely did.
_Selected member of the Academy of Sciences in 1770, he was commissioned by Louis XVI to draw up the maps of the bailiwicks of the kingdom of France in 1788. He is the author of numerous memoirs, including the Memoirs on the discoveries to be made in the Great Ocean (1797-1798) where he identifies the discovery in 1777 of James Cook of Christmas Island in Acea (discovered in 1537). He was a teacher at the Ecole normale and a member of the bureau des longitudes _

Source of the above passage;
_Letillois de Meizières, General biography of famous Champenois, dead and alive; preceded by illustrious Champenois, lyric poem, and enriched by several chronological tables, very precious, for the intelligence of the artistic, literary and contemporary history of Champagne, Paris, Au bureau du journal des painters, 1836, p31._

Obviously from the above, as is so often the case, we are looking at secondhand information in that book as in the author did not visit the places he is writing about.
This is one of the most frustrating, to me, things about 'history' very rarely is it the actual people who most likely did the travelling and observing write the accounts we today are allowed to see.

He was also a teacher as well as a copyist but cannot find any date for this employment.
He was a teacher at the Ecole normale and a member of the bureau des longitude

But not in 1772 as this school for these people,
_ "There will be established in Paris an Ecole normale (literally, a normal school), where, from all the parts of the Republic, citizens already educated in the useful sciences shall be called upon to learn, from the best professors in all the disciplines, the art of teaching." _

didn't get going until 1795.
_The inaugural course was given on 20 January 1795_

The only likely explorer who was French was a chap by the name of
Philippe Avril and the only source of info I have yet found is wikiwaki Philippe Avril - Wikipedia.
As is always the case, or so it seems, he was a Jesuit, quelle surprise.
There is next to nothing produced about this time that doesn't have a named Jesuit source. There is no such thing as a coincidence.
I was looking for a Jesuit connection. Not finding one immediately I was hopeful that my feeling that the word Tartary is nothing more than the Jesuit/Catholic term for a place where people who are with out Lord God dwell, (As in Tartarus made palatable) would go away.

_Philippe Avril was a Jesuit explorer of the Far East. He was born at Angoulême, France on 16 September 1654.

Avril was a professor of philosophy and mathematics at Paris when he was dispatched to the Jesuit missions of China. Following the instructions of Ferdinand Verbiest, another Jesuit, then at Peking, he attempted an overland journey, and traveled for six years through Kurdistan, Armenia, Astrakhan, Persia, and other countries of eastern Asia.

Arriving at Moscow, Avril was refused permission to pass through Tatary, and was sent by the Government to Poland, whence he made his way to Istanbul and from there went back to France._
Source of the above passage
_Love, Ronald S. (2003). "A Passage to China:A French Jesuit's Perceptions of Siberia in the 1680s". French Colonial History. 3: 94._

Poor bugger.
_Though exhausted by disease, he set out again on a vessel, which was lost at sea. Avril presumably died in a 1698 shipwreck.

Avril's journal and writings provide a significant amount of useful material for modern historians and demographers. _

And the Jean-Nicolas Buache book?
I also find it convenient that Jesuits are the only people who are able to wander around throughout Tartary/Rus most of the time .


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: StarmonkeyDate: 2020-01-01 17:22:30Reaction Score: 0




jd755 said:


> Using startpage and google translate plus various search strings to find out more about the author of this book. Reason being If this was a text book in use in France then it must haave had Catholic approval as the Catholics were the educators of the day, as far as I've been able to ascertain so the content must ft in with the Ctholic dogma.
> 
> His name was Jean-Nicolas Buache
> He was the Director of this Royal French Navt department from
> ...


Or ANYWHERE, ftm.
That account of them flooding Mexico City has me thinking that was a technique used by them to subjugate peoples. Destroy their way of life and livelihood. Then, swoop in to "help". Just an idea...
"Cthulhic dogma"?...


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2020-01-01 18:45:23Reaction Score: 0




Starmonkey said:


> "Cthulhic dogma"?...


Than eee kindly squire. Retraining my eyes to work all of the time sans glasses, is taking longer than anticipated, but getting there.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: StarmonkeyDate: 2020-01-01 19:09:23Reaction Score: 0




jd755 said:


> Than eee kindly squire. Retraining my eyes to work all of the time sans glasses, is taking longer than anticipated, but getting there.


Seemed oddly apropos to me.


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## Mabzynn (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: MabzynnDate: 2020-01-01 20:46:34Reaction Score: 7


This text goes on to describe:


the Americas also being called the New World and also very improperly the Little Indies and West Indies.




In Peru they found there are many in abundance, which were found, during the Discovery of this Country, Temples coated with Silver, & Houses covered with plates of Gold: what may have given rise to the Fable so well known in beautiful country of El-Dorado.


Reaffirms the idea that the ancients considered America to be Atlantis.


jd755 said:


> Using startpage and google translate plus various search strings to find out more about the author of this book. Reason being If this was a text book in use in France then it must haave had Catholic approval as the Catholics were the educators of the day, as far as I've been able to ascertain so the content must fit in with the Catholic dogma.
> 
> His name was Jean-Nicolas Buache
> He was the Director of this Royal French Navy department from
> ...


I'm with you on the never having a solid answer due to the Jesuit hand in creating our new history but the text admits the Spanish hit the West Coast and the Portuguese hit the East Coast. It also states the Spanish killed 15 million in less than a year.



Oh and it says the entire population was under police control when the Spanish arrived.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: RecognitionDate: 2020-01-01 22:01:12Reaction Score: 8




Mabzynn said:


> The Dagestan, near the Caspian Sea, is inhabited by Tartars, who are very ugly, very wild, and big birds. They are Mahometans, & subject to Princes of their Nation.


Not to look at this too simplistically, but I do read this as these beings were very ugly and very wild and also big birds AKA


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## Mabzynn (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: MabzynnDate: 2020-01-01 22:22:57Reaction Score: 2




Recognition said:


> Not to look at this too simplistically, but I do read this as these beings were very ugly and very wild and also big birds AKAView attachment 37237


That should translate better to GREAT THIEVES*** 

For some reason I had the Cossacks and Winged Hussars on my mind while typing out this post... I knew it'd slip in somewhere.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: RecognitionDate: 2020-01-01 22:24:28Reaction Score: 1


Hahaha dang it! What a let down Great research always _@Mabzynn_


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2020-01-02 09:39:09Reaction Score: 1




Mabzynn said:


> t also states the Spanish killed 15 million in less than a year.


How or why they would bother counting the dead is beyond me.
That figure comes down to 41095 deatths a day if it took 365 days.
The smell alone must have been intolerable and who would undertake the task of dealing with this amount of corpses piling up everyday
How many Spaniards were really there?

I feel all of these Jesuit sourced tales are not trustworthy accounts of anything, if for nothing else they are pushing their Lord God as the saviour of 'mankind; and those without their Lord God are not mankind. They are Tartarians, heathens, savages etc and must be onverted or eradicated.
When the opposite is much more likely, to me. The actual Tartars, Tartarians, Hethens Savages aka the people sent into to and of Tartarus are Jesuits.


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## Mabzynn (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: MabzynnDate: 2020-01-02 14:27:54Reaction Score: 9




jd755 said:


> How or why they would bother counting the dead is beyond me.
> That figure coes down to 41095 deatths a day if it took 365 days.
> The smelll alone must have been intolerable and who would undertake the task of dealing with this amount of corpses piling up everyday
> How many Spaniards were really there?
> ...


Or there's some truth to the accounts of the Jesuits causing "natural" disasters like rerouting water sources and flooding populated areas that housed or fed millions.

I'm with you though it's frustrating, but if we all followed that guidance this website wouldn't exist because virtually everything pre-1890's has the red stamp of approval.


I do believe mistakes were made during the rewrite and with careful consideration and evaluation of all the sources we can get a fairly realistic understanding of what happened.  Did the Spanish really kill 15 million in under a year? Definitely not because calling them anything other than Jesuits/Catholics is a mislabeling of who they were.  This line at least indicates to me that a massive population died off at some point while they were "exploring" or "re-discovering" the Americas.  The mechanism through which they died I don't really care about it if I'm honest because it was most likely from cataclysms and the remainders were just re-integrated into the current slave state we find ourselves in.  I'm more interested in following the people who are still holding out today than convening with other fellow conquered folks.

Will we know the height of this power or how great it truly was? No.

To quantify that, I see a description of a great Indo-European nation that has been disappeared from our history within the past 200-500 years.  I also see major cataclysms after and before this rewrite of history.  Most of the modern languages stem from this language group.  Etruscan can be actively read by Hungarians yet it's somehow a lost language according to scholars.  I should mention the description of this Indo-European Empire with flying vehicles and high technology seems to fit our ideas of a highly advanced civilization in our recent history.  The technological advancements and the sheer amount of patents in the 1800's is obviously a cover up.  There's lots of evidence of aerostatic machines in the later part of the 1700's.  The maps of India and Asia heavily change during this period where the outline of the continent is almost unrecognizable.  2/3's of Cairo was destroyed by earthquake and deluge in 1754 and this event has been removed from our history.  You have the strange world wars and allegiances that make no sense according to current politics.  You have a white European nation that fought against most of the known world being represented by an ancient Hindu/Sanskrit symbol...  What is everyone so confused about exactly?

Are you confident that the Bharat Empire/Scythia/Gaul is not Grand Tartaria pushed back thousands of years?  I'm not, it seems quite likely to me that this is the case.  I'm probably in a smaller group of individuals on this forum but I don't believe anything on the surface to be much older than 1000 years.  I see what we've accomplished in a century and for history to imply that we were not always capable of this nation and city building is utter crap.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2020-01-02 16:57:46Reaction Score: 3


I've yet to ome across anything outside of Jesuit control, or within it for that matter, that is evidence of their power to cause artificial catastophes and pass them off as natural.
They never seem to define natural or make any distinction between natural and artificical. The closest they get is to say its' God's will', the ultimate backstop for all of their claims via their vicar the pope.
Another thing is the numbers of Jesuits seems to be a movable feast in the written records with no two references agreeing with each other. Just how numerous were they or indeed are they?

The people who lived around modern day Mexico seemed to have fed themselves by means of chinampas, more edge living, which were extremely productive floating and waters edge gardens located in the shallow waters of the area.
Jesuits draining or poisoning the waters could indeed starve or directly kill a fair number but what are the odds of the Jesuits themselves surviving such an event?

Crown copyright is a sure sign to me its bullshit, authorised bullshit.
Get your drift and hoonestly other than the objective tangible reality of things I know not where to look for evidence of real history in paper form.

Where does one look for these people holding out in this reality or get to talk with them?
Are they in specific geographical areas or living with 'countries' and staying under the radar so too speak?
I get the feeling we are in reality self policing slaves and are trained to be so from the moment we can talk. Not by slave masters but by oher slaves in some sort of self perpetuaing process that few seem to notice and even fewer do anything about.

The system perpetuates itself on our confusion, or so it seems to me. For every snippet of reality that is missed by the rewriters there is overlaid layer upon layer of obfuscatio which require moree and more layers to burry it confusion which i turn needs ever more layers.
It's all down to the individual, for me to accept that they have ben had, been conned by others, conned themselves into belief of things that are demonstrably untrue and instead seek within to order if you will what is demonstrably true, unlearn so too speak.

_Are you confident that the Bharat Empire/Scythia/Gaul is not Grand Tartaria pushed back thousands of years?_
No how can anyone be so?
I'm not confident of anything prior to my birth and less and less confident about most things since that singular event.
However speculation it maybe but prior to the arising of the RCC with it's Jesuit wanderers what existed was not an empire at all. Empires require hierarchy.My feeling is that the people alive before the RCC singular event had no knowing of hierarchy as they had no need of it because they knew who they were.
Empire is a word crafted by the RCC scriptwriters to hide this truth as is Tartaria and Tartary and its derivatives. They all sprang from the invention of Tartarus for a reaso, it seems to me.

I've no way of knowing how old anything is, least of all myself. I have a recurring feeling that this entire reality comes into being when 'we' come into being just as an oak and the acorn mutually come into being, for example.

Sorry if this is wandering off your thread a little but quite honestly this is one of the most refreshing conversations I've had since coming here.

The odditiy and the absurdity is that all the talk of Jesuits doing this and that comes from within the writings of Jesuits. As George Carlin might say 'the bullshit department'.
I wonder, no i don't, I know on some level I cannot quite get too this objective reality of land, air and water is far bigger than we are told, sold or allowed to know and everything from history to distances are actually much closer togther.


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## Mabzynn (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: MabzynnDate: 2020-01-02 17:37:49Reaction Score: 9


The wandering is all good my man how would we get anywhere if we didn't communicate our ideas?



jd755 said:


> Where does one look for these people holding out in this reality or get to talk with them?
> Are they in specific geographical areas or living with 'countries' and staying under the radar so too speak?
> I get the feeling we are in reality self policing slaves and are trained to be so from the moment we can talk. Not by slave masters but by oher slaves in some sort of self perpetuaing process that few seem to notice and even fewer do anything about.


I see the majority of your points and understand them I'm just still a bit optimistic that the truth could be out there!  Fair points on the Jesuits being a control mechanism or cover story (for the military industrial complex/banking system in my eyes) but when their home base of the Vatican willingly acknowledges it's hiding our history I like to put a name to use when it's applicable.  My feelings and thoughts on the pre-history people that you're alluding to having no hierarchy... I fully support it - it seems reasonable to me. I'm of the opinion that people are truly genuinely good - yes, there's a portion of society that could be defined as sociopaths/psychopaths but this is small percentage that probably are indifferent about other humans in a world where they don't need to pay taxes to live so they just go f**k off in the woods.

Throughout the Caucus region and Central Asia there are tribal groups that remain completely separate from whatever colonial system they're living in.  Dagestani's and Chechen's are not Russian despite Russian claims that they are - these are your Tartars.  Ever seen a helicopter clip of U.S. Special Forces losing fire fights in a mountainous region?  Almost all universally areas manned by Islamic Caucasians.  This was my experience in Afghanistan at least.  I've spoken with Pashai in the Korengal who outright stated their history had been destroyed.

JD, I acknowledge 100% that we are being conned, and knowing the truth of our reality will never be possible in our current state of enlightenment.  But that's what this forum is about right?  Let's try.  Let's see who or what we can wake up  

How many people do you think this website is dragging out of their slumber in all seriousness though? We're in a collective state of amnesia as Hancock likes to put it.  There's something magical going on here let's not forget that.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: StarmonkeyDate: 2020-01-02 19:03:05Reaction Score: 0


The truth is not "out there". Sorry.

I suppose "systems" of some sort of another are necessary for existence. But institutions? Clubs? Organizations? Establishments?
CORPORATIONS?
I find the actual decided upon name, the "united states" dubious at best.
EU is in the process of dismemberment only how many years later?
So is this shithole. We should decide what we want it to be, rather than let others decide for us.
I concur with the self-policing slaves bit. Get our agreement, complicity or complacency.
No cajones left out there...
We should start a thread about LIES.
Misinformation, fantasy or fancy, codes, secret societies, sects, denominations, DIVISIONS.
You don't get to UNITY through more division.
Good luck with that.


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## Mabzynn (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: MabzynnDate: 2020-01-02 20:25:02Reaction Score: 0




Starmonkey said:


> The truth is not "out there". Sorry.
> 
> I suppose "systems" of some sort of another are necessary for existence. But institutions? Clubs? Organizations? Establishments?
> CORPORATIONS?
> ...


So help me understand...

Is it the "Truth" word that is muddying this?  I know the philosophical types could debate that word for a century.  Would you accept me saying a more realistic version of our past?  Or have ya'll really lost hope?

Would you settle for the use of the word "within" instead of "out there?" You speak very symbolically so it's hard to gather what you mean.

Was I promoting division somewhere? - This was not my intent.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: StarmonkeyDate: 2020-01-02 20:30:38Reaction Score: 0




Mabzynn said:


> So help me understand...
> 
> Is it the "Truth" word that is muddying this?  I know the philosophical types could debate that word for a century.  Would you accept me saying a more realistic version of our past?  Or have ya'll really lost hope?
> 
> ...


Unless we get a defector or spy helping us out, I believe NOT in objective truth.
I DO believe in OTHER methods more in line with what the minority of us are attempting, which relates to the BIGGER picture.
I trainwrecked my other musings about "U.S." and incorporation there, apologies. What, EXACTLY, we're they attempting to unite? Or INCORPORATE.
Can't forget this mess occurred during the rise of CAPITALISM.


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## Mabzynn (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: MabzynnDate: 2020-01-02 21:13:56Reaction Score: 7


They were INCORPORATING us.  They took our divinity and turned us into bags of meat to be sold, traded, and used as lifeless commodities to those that are still connected.  After all, your LEGAL NAME is just a dead lifeless corporation.

Unfortunately I feel my tie has been severed. Don't get me wrong I live more in my head than I do in reality, but I can't help but feel like I've been limited from the start. Or so to say, my wings have been clipped.

(Taking to PM's) --- Back on topic...

Did you know that prior to 1772 the accepted population of Boston was over 30,000?

Yet in 1765 the "last surviving" census only puts it at 15,000.

This is also the place where all those pesky brick burning "fires" started in 1760.

Early census making in Massachusetts, 1643-1765, with a reproduction of the lost census of 1765 (recently found) and documents relating thereto; : Benton, Josiah H. (Josiah Henry), 1843-1917



A Century of Population Growth from the First Census of the United States to the Twelfth, 1790-1900
Looks like by the 1764-1765 census they were able to eliminate all the remaining Acadians (French Neutrals?)

Side topic - Is anyone ever curious about the classifications on these old census charts?

So they track the age of whites 16 under/over due to militia obligations at 16.
They're tracking French Neutrals for militia obligations at 16.
No obligations for Negroes, Mulattoes, and Indians.

I could accept this if it was historic belief that all Blacks, Mulattoes, and Indians were slaves in Massachusetts.  But they weren't.  So why the pass on military obligations for all of them?  They served in the Revolutionary war according to the records so it can't be an argument of not allowing them to serve.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2020-01-03 11:03:34Reaction Score: 2


The Vatican as in the country called Vatican, a country being nothing more than a registered corporation aka a non living entity a legal person,cannot do anything as it only appears in the mind and on paper. 
Wandering again but this feels crucial to me in shredding the curtain of illusion we live under. Written words bind the mind.

It's people who say history is being hidden in the Vatican or by other people in the Vatican. It's the Jesuits did everything story for a 'contemorary audience'. To me these people don't hide anything they invent history, an image of history if you will and let and/or 'encourage' others without run with elaboration and interpretation. They even provde them with organs to use, universities, job titles, schooling etc.

Ever wondered about the Venetian and Genoan realtions to 'The Vatican' and another variation being the Phonecians and Babylon?

Were the Pashai referring to their physical history, written history or their spoken history, or all of it being destroyed?
I've always felt since my schoolday discovery of the British Empire's men and boys invading Afghanistan (alhough it now looks more like it was the East India Cmpany which was sending it's men in) that there was no need for it. I could never and still cannot see any sense in it or any form of war to be honest.
The tales of total defeat do not ring true when tales emerge from 'the other side' of them losing their history to destructive force.
Did the Pashai say who was responsible, when or how?

Reason for enquiry is assuming for a moment present day Afghanistan is geographically speaking within what was labelled Tartary it may show evidence of how extensive the Pashai lands were 'back then, ergo how much they have lost and when it went

Like all forums in my experience it's dragging very few out of 'their slumber' as you phrase it. Most are unaware of its existence and in common conversation no-one I speak with ever brings history to the fore. Even in my family of four only one other has the slightest interest and he got bored with the content as he said 'it's gotten samey'. The other family members couldn't care less.
For me it's not about numbers its about internal change. Through my participation on here it's become more obvious to me that there are 'image makers' at work in this life of mine who have the ability to mask objective reality and not so much steal history but 'layer it up' in craft, invention, lies. Why I have no idea. Maybe they do it for kicks or just because it's just something they can do. (If they can do it then we all can that might be another reason why they do it, it gets weird very quickly pondering this!) 
This place is a lot different to all other forums I've been part of as for the most part ego gets left at the door and only rarely does it manifest in threads which is why they are more often than not interesting to read. Most realise the words on the screen are simply that and ad hominem attacks are all but non existent which is a marked difference to all of the other places I've frequented. 

Census's here didn't begin until the early 1800's with 1841 being the first one that covered more than a basic head count.


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## Mabzynn (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: MabzynnDate: 2020-01-03 12:31:53Reaction Score: 7




jd755 said:


> The Vatican as in the country called Vatican, a country being nothing more than a registered corporation aka a non living entity a legal person,cannot do anything as it only appears in the mind and on paper.
> Wandering again but this feels crucial to me in shredding the curtain of illusion we live under. Written words bind the mind.
> 
> It's people who say history is being hidden in the Vatican or by other people in the Vatican. It's the Jesuits did everything story for a 'contemorary audience'. To me these people don't hide anything they invent history, an image of history if you will and let and/or 'encourage' others without run with elaboration and interpretation. They even provde them with organs to use, universities, job titles, schooling etc.
> ...


I was an outsider and in a position of being an occupier. I wasn't able to garner much else other than his sarcastic comments about it all being a lie to hide a world wide Caliphate. For the Pashai it's been virtually every major empire in history trying to knock on their door so I imagine this feud is ancient.

Yes I wonder about the Venetian/Genoan/Pheonician connections a lot.  I'm not so torn on Babylon because it doesn't acknowledge it as a city in Africa. If anything appears faked to me it's this Summerian/Babylonian history (but I acknowledge I've never bothered to try to read and understand the languages myself - sorry _@Jim Duyer_).  Until a version comes out that acknowledges Babylon was in Egypt the rest of the information is pretty much garbage to me.  I mean come on they could build giant temples but they hadn't figured out a better writing system than on thick bulky clay tablets?  I'd love to see what architectural designs looked like on clay tablets... lol

I think part of the cover up is who the pyramid building Egyptians really were as many of the threads on this forum have challenged. (From the plethora of evidence I've seen I'm leaning towards they were again Indo-European but more of the red-headed Caucasian variety).

My only point I guess in all of this is that:

1) People make mistakes - especially these manipulators of history.
2) Truly evil people like to be reminded of just how cool they are by collecting "trophies." If there's any real books from our previous history they're in the Vatican so I will continue to name it.
3) Yeah history is a weird one right... It's hard to really care about it unless you've always been interested because even on the surface every single world war and current affair is not being portrayed in truth/reality.  The real reasons for all of these wars was never jihadism or terrorism.  You can't pay the terrorists and then cry about them terrorizing you.  The United States government is about to lose a law suit by service members who served in Afghanistan after the most recent IG report.  If you haven't read it yet... please do.

SIGAR | Lessons Learned

The National Security Archive

*Let's play a game to show what I mean by this and why I'm still optimistic about history using the example of the Iraq War:*

Wiki says (so this is what I assume at least one version of the history books will teach and could be a potential primary source for people in the future):

The Iraq War was a protracted armed conflict that began in 2003 with the invasion of Iraq by a United States-led coalition that overthrew the government of Saddam Hussein. The conflict continued for much of the next decade as an insurgency emerged to oppose the occupying forces and the post-invasion Iraqi government. An estimated 151,000 to 600,000 Iraqis were killed in the first three to four years of conflict. US troops were officially withdrawn in 2009 but are still fighting in Iraq, most of them having been redeployed following the spread of the Syrian Civil War and the territorial gains of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Many former soldiers are employed by defence contractors and private military companies. The U.S. became re-involved in 2014 at the head of a new coalition; the insurgency and many dimensions of the civil armed conflict continue. The invasion occurred as part of the George W. Bush administration's War on Terror, following the September 11 attacks.

It discusses the weapons of mass destruction inspections and the people who's statements were used to justify the invasion are now known to be false. So you'd pretty much know there was some sketchiness to the story.

And that would pretty much give someone their view in the future on what happened here right? Assuming no prior knowledge...

However look at the bread crumbs like we do on this website... If i was completely removed from this situation I would find comments on private military companies to be ridiculous and worth a second delve. From as far as I can tell you and I research somewhat similarly. Almost always going back to the authors or characters involved in the story and researching the historical information on all those involved before drawing any conclusions on the text.

1) First things I notice while playing this game is that I have an unfair advantage knowing that Halliburton (KBR) exists. So I wanted to eliminate that. Which will explain my concern because at a cursory search of the top 50 private military contractors neither Halliburton or KBR will pop up outside of newspaper articles which can be easily "lost" down the road. I'll also mention in the wikipedia on the Iraq War, Dick Cheney's name is nowhere to be found, which I find hilarious - other than referencing information on the torture report that he produced on Al-Qaeda but his name doesn't appear outside of the bibliography.

2) So, from here with the private military companies available I don't find any connections to Bush/Rumsfield(this would take you down the pharma worm hole)/Powell who are listed as the major players on the U.S. side of the Iraq War.  (Again I'm playing stupid here because in the future people will not know about the history between the Bushes / Sadaam Hussein / Bin Ladens).  So, if you're disinterested or not thorough this is probably where you'd stop researching and start on another source.  However, if you begin to research what is available on the U.S. administration you will quickly discover that Dick Cheney was Vice President during 2003.  If there's any sources available about Dick Cheney you will also discover that he was the Secretary of Defense for the first Iraq invasion in the 90's.  You will also discover that he was the CEO of a private military company called Halliburton up until 2000 and remained on the Board of Director's.

3) When researching Halliburton directly, you will then discover they received a 7 billion dollar no bid contract at the start of the Iraq War in 2003. At the point in which you discover that later in life Dick Cheney shot one of his friends in the face and the friend then publicly apologized to him.... you would pretty much stop and have a fairly comprehensive view for the start of the Iraq War.
Is it an exact truth with all parties and politics involved? No.
But, is Dick Cheney one of the major "controllers" of our time period? Yes.

I feel like I don't really need to continue with this... I hope you get my point...  For those inquisitive minds there may be a version that is closer to reality than we are told with this line of reasoning.
Adding more topic related items:

[Illustrations de Voyages de Pallas en différentes provinces de l'Empire de Russie et dans l'Asie Septentrionale] / N. Thomas, grav. ; Pallas, aut. du texte | Gallica


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: Big JohnDate: 2020-01-11 19:24:14Reaction Score: 3




Mabzynn said:


> So at one point in our history the following information was considered elementary level geography.
> 
> From: *Modern and ancient elementary geography. Volume 1.*
> _1772_
> ...


that was fantastic thanks for sharing. So much of history is lost to us.


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## BStankman (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BStankmanDate: 2020-01-12 12:32:06Reaction Score: 1




Big John said:


> that was fantastic thanks for sharing. So much of history is lost to us.


Yes, thank you for your translation work on this.
Looking at these images from 1700, it is pretty clear to me the Americas were not isolated from Asia.
Same writing, same forts and salt works, same temples, same dress.


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## Dzharo (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: DzharoDate: 2020-06-22 23:44:34Reaction Score: 1


I came across a reference to this book in _Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to Al-Madinah and Meccah _ by Sir Richard F. Burton and thought I would post it here - perhaps someone would be interested in reading it.

*TRAVELS   in   TARTARY, THIBET, AND CHINA,
during the years 1844–5–6.*

BY M. HUC.

translated from the french by W. Hazlitt.

VOL. I.   (Contains abut 300 pp)
Travels in Tartary, Thibet, and China, by Evariste Regis Huc

The writing is easy to read, gossipy, and occasionally there are some snippets of information like this:
_You often, in these parts of Tartary, meet with the remains of great towns, and the ruins of fortresses, very nearly resembling those of the middle ages in Europe, and, upon turning up the soil in these places, it is not unusual to find lances, arrows, portions of farming implements, and urns filled with Corean money._

Plenty of illustrations, but no maps and he seems to use the terms Mongol and Tartar interchangeably.  I hope it is of some use.


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## ViniB (Jan 3, 2022)

This was one of the best threads I've read so far! Great discussion


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## Blackdiamond (Jan 3, 2022)

ViniB said:


> This was one of the best threads I've read so far! Great discussion



Indeed! It seems it really was coast to coast, otherwise why name it this way, "Tartar" with the second r, as the tartar wall of Peking? and between those two areas seems to have been maybe the biggest star city of all.


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## ViniB (Jan 3, 2022)

Blackdiamond said:


> Indeed! It seems it really was coast to coast, otherwise why name it this way, "Tartar" with the second r, as the tartar wall of Peking? and between those two areas seems to have been maybe the biggest star city of all.


I found this article Analysis unlocks secret of the Vinland Map — it’s a fake about the vinland não being a fake according to yale experts, and the reason of why it's interesting is because it came with other 2 books deemed originais, by carbon dating to the "medieval period" and one of the books mentions tartar.... a deeper look into the credentials and connections of the experts would be interesting


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