# Dido, Europe and Carthage



## Lee_Magee (Jan 2, 2023)

Dido is a major figure in the Aeneid, she was the founder of Carthage and from Tyre.



> *Aeneid 1.335*
> The rising city, which from far you see,
> Is Carthage, and a Tyrian colony.
> Phoenician Dido rules the growing state,
> Who fled from Tyre, to shun her brother's hate.





> *Appian - Punic Wars 1*
> The Phoenicians settled Carthage, in Africa, *fifty years *before the capture of Troy. Its founders were either Zorus and Carchedon, or, as the Romans and the Carthaginians themselves think, Dido, a Tyrian woman, whose husband had been slain clandestinely by *Pygmalion*, the ruler of Tyre. The murder being revealed to her in a dream, she embarked for Africa with her property and a number of men who desired to escape from the tyranny of Pygmalion, and arrived at that part of Africa where Carthage now stands.



According to Appian, Carthage was founded *fifty years* before the Trojan War, its founders were either Zorus and Carchedon, but Carthage was accordingly founded in 814 BCE, then does that mean the Trojan War happened around 764 BCE?



> *Josephus 1.116*
> Balezoros, who lived forty-five years, and reigned six years: he was succeeded by *Matgenus *his son; he lived thirty-two years, and reigned nine years: *Pygmalion *succeeded him; he lived fifty-six years, and reigned forty-seven years. Now in the seventh year of his reign, *his sister* fled away from him, and built the city *Carthage in Libya*.



*Europa*



> *Herodotus 1.2.1*
> Greeks (they cannot say who) landed at Tyre in Phoenicia and carried off the king's daughter Europa.
> 
> *Herodotus 4.45*
> But as for Europe, no men have any knowledge whether it is bounded by seas or not, or where it got its name, nor is it clear who gave the name, unless we say that the land took its name from the *Tyrian Europa*, having been (it would seem) before then nameless like the rest. But it is plain that this woman was of Asiatic birth, and never came to this land which the Greeks now call Europe, but only from Phoenicia to Crete and from Crete to Lycia



Herodotus does not mention *Tyrian Dido*, but *Tyrian Europa *who was carried away to *Crete*, who later went to *Lycia*.

Did Herodotus confuse Crete and Carthage?


*Atlantis*



> *Herodotus 4.184*
> Another ten days' journey from the Garamantes there is again a salt hill and water, where men live called Atarantes. These are the only men whom we know who have no names; for the whole people are called Atarantes, but no man has a name of his own. [2] When the sun is high, they curse and very foully revile him, because his burning heat afflicts their people and their land. [3] After another ten days' journey there is again a hill of salt, and water, and men living there. Near to this salt is a mountain called Atlas, whose shape is slender and conical; and it is said to be so high that its heights cannot be seen, for clouds are always on them winter and summer. The people of the country call it the pillar of heaven. [4] These men get their name, which is Atlantes, from this mountain. It is said that they eat no living creature and see no dreams in their sleep.



Atlantis is thus another name for Carthage and according to Herodotus the people were called Atarantes.  I suspect this name comes from *אטר*, an alternative form of *קטר *meaning fumigate, produce smoke, since Mount Atlas is a volcano.

According to Josephus, Africa (county of Carthage) gets his name from Epher, son of Midian, son of *Keturah (קטורה).  *The terminal *ה* exchanges with* ν *and *ק* with *א* and thus *Keturah (קטורה) > Ἀτάραν(τες) *



> *Josephus Antiquities of the Jews 1.238*
> there were many sons born to Abraham by *Keturah*: nay, he names three of them, Apher, and Surim, and Japhran. That from Surim was the land of Assyria denominated; and that from the other two (Apher and Japbran) the country of Africa took its name, because these men were auxiliaries to Hercules, when he fought against Libya and Antaeus; and that Hercules married Aphra's daughter, and of her he begat a son, Diodorus; and that *Sophon *was his son, from whom that barbarous people called Sophacians were denominated."



Josephus mention of Sophon resembles Syphax, the king of ancient Numidia and Sophonisba, a Carthaginian noblewoman who lived during the Second Punic War,  the daughter of Hasdrubal Gisco.


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## Lee_Magee (Jan 3, 2023)

*Dido *as no children or consort, which suggests she was a virgin, or in other words, Athena.  Therefore, the name Dido is probably from *ἠιθέη *'unmarried youth', the synonym of *παρθένος*, the epithet of Athena.  Then Dido is also identified with  Tanit, the chief goddess of Carthage, a heavenly virgin goddess of war.

Athena is also *Anat *in Phoenician. which also appears in the Elephantine letters as "*Anat Yahweh*", which is the Phoenician equivilent
of Athena Paeonia (Ἀθήνη Παιώνια) "Healer Athena".  Another Phoenician name is Asherah, which is ἀνδροθέα.


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## Jd755 (Jan 3, 2023)

It would help enormously if you introduced this thread with some reasoning as to why your beliefs and or things you have discovered about this character are important.
Linking to sources of information for further investigation by interested readers wouldn't go amiss either.


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## Lee_Magee (Jan 4, 2023)

Jd755 said:


> It would help enormously if you introduced this thread with some reasoning as to why your beliefs and or things you have discovered about this character are important.
> Linking to sources of information for further investigation by interested readers wouldn't go amiss either.



I did quote Herodotus, Josephus and Appian, they are free to read on Perseus.


The Septuagint version of the Old Testament books have Carthage (*Καρχηδών*) as a translation of Tarshish (תרשיש), the Phoenician name for Athens.



> *Ezekiel 27:25 *
> MT אניות תרשיש שרותיך מערבך ותמלאי ותכבדי מאד בלב־ימים
> LXX πλοῖα ἐν αὐτοῖς *Καρχηδόνιοι *ἔμποροί σου ἐν τῷ πλήθει ἐν τῷ συμμίκτῳ σου καὶ ἐνεπλήσθης καὶ ἐβαρύνθης σφόδρα ἐν καρδίᾳ θαλάσσης
> KJV The ships of *Tarshish *did sing of thee in thy market: and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas."



These verses are not translated correctly, this is because the translators are theologians and not understand the Phoenician language, Book of Ezekiel probably written during the Achaemenid Empire period, time of trade between the Phoenicians and Persians. 

The trade in the Book of Ezekiel could only be possible if the Suez Canel was up and running, which was built by Darius I, so Achaemenid Empire period confirmed.

ναῦς (אניות) ships
ἀγοραί  (שרות) markets
φόρημα (מערב) freight, forum



> *Herodotus 1.1.1*
> The Persian learned men say that the Phoenicians were the cause of the dispute. These (they say) came to our seas from the sea which is called Red, and having settled in the country which they still occupy, at once began to make long voyages. Among other places to which they carried Egyptian and Assyrian merchandise, they came to Argos,



The very first peoples mentioned by Herodotus are Phoenicians and Persians.  Accordingly, the Phoenicians came to the Red Sea, which is Ἀράβιος κόλπος (The Arabian Gulf).  This travel requires the Suez Canal.



> *Herodotus 1.1.2*
> which was at that time preeminent in every way among the people of what is now called Hellas. The Phoenicians came to Argos, and set out their cargo.



In the Old Testament, Hellas is called Elissa (אלישה), which is also a name for Carthage or Dido.



> *Herodotus 1.1.3*
> On the fifth or sixth day after their arrival, when their wares were almost all sold, many women came to the shore and among them especially the daughter of the king, whose name was Io (according to Persians and Greeks alike), the daughter of Inachus.



The Phoenicians kidnap Io, the daughter of Inachus.



> *Herodotus 1.2.1*
> In this way, the Persians say (and not as the Greeks), was how Io came to Egypt, and this, according to them, was the first wrong that was done. Next, according to their story, some Greeks (they cannot say who) landed at Tyre in Phoenicia and carried off the king's daughter Europa. These Greeks must, I suppose, have been Cretans. So far, then, the account between them was balanced. But after this (they say), it was the Greeks who were guilty of the second wrong.



The Phoenicians kidnap Io and deposits her in Egypt, in other words, she represents the founder of a Greek colony in Egypt, perhaps Elephantine.  Then the Greeks kidnap Europa and deposits her in Crete, but there is little information to suggest there was a Phoenician colony in Crete.


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## Jd755 (Jan 4, 2023)

Thank you.


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## Lee_Magee (Jan 4, 2023)

It is mentioned throughout Ancient Greek writings, that Phoenicians had a colony in mainland Greece, in Boeotia, founding Thebes.



> *Herodotus 2.49*
> I believe that Melampus learned the worship of Dionysus chiefly from *Cadmus of **Tyre* and those who came with Cadmus from Phoenicia to the land now called Boeotia.





> *Isocrates, Helen 10 68*
> Cadmus of Sidon became king of Thebes



Thebes in ancient Greek is called Θήβης ἑπταπύλοιο (Thebes of the Seven Gates).  Perhaps the Phoenician founders named it שבע which became Θήβη.


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## Lee_Magee (Jan 5, 2023)

*Hiram I* (980–947 BCE)


> The "Tomb of Hiram" (Qabr Hiram) dates from the Persian period, *4–6 centuries after* the presumed time of Hiram
> Hiram I - Wikipedia



The primary sources for the life of *Hiram I* is the Bible and Josephus, and the only archeological source is the "Tomb of Hiram", *4–6 centuries after* the presumed time of Hiram.



> Flavius Josephus Against Apion 1.154
> *Cyrus *the Persian took the kingdom in the fourteenth year of *Hirom*.



Here *Cyrus *is a contemporary of *Hiram,* the King of Tyre.



> *Ezra 3:7 *To bring cedar trees from *Lebanon *to the sea of *Joppa* according to the grant that they had of *Cyrus *king of Persia



Here we have Cyrus purchasing cedar trees from the Tyrian King, presumably *Hiram *



> *1 Kings 5:9-10*
> My servants shall bring them down from *Lebanon *unto the sea: and I will convey them by sea in floats unto the place that thou shalt appoint me.
> So *Hiram *gave Solomon cedar trees and fir trees _according to_ all his desire.
> 
> ...



But here we have Solomon purchasing cedar trees from *Hiram  *_(same name/same project?)_

The depiction of Cyrus in the Book of Ezra seems rather out of character, he seems to function as a Levantine satrap, what business does Cyrus have purchasing Cedar trees for the construction of a temple in the middle of Palestine.  This is also anachronism, since the temple was constructed later, during or after the reign of Darius II (c. ~417 BCE). 

Unless Ezra 3:7 is referring to Cyrus the Younger.

Bible theologians have corrupted and distorted Phoenician history.


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## Climber (Today at 2:50 AM)

Lee_Magee said:


> *Hiram I* (980–947 BCE)
> 
> 
> The primary sources for the life of *Hiram I* is the Bible and Josephus, and the only archeological source is the "Tomb of Hiram", *4–6 centuries after* the presumed time of Hiram.
> ...


Well, the lack of archeological evidence lends itself to the notion that Solomon never existed, same with his temple. It is presumed that King Hiram also didn't exist, citing what you've already wrote regarding his tomb being the only archeological source, appearing 400-600 years later. This kind of evidence seems to be spurious at best in relation to supporting the historicity of Hiram. Are there any documents or records from antiquity that can corroborate the reign of Hiram?


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## Lee_Magee (Today at 11:43 AM)

The tomb of King Hiram is still standing to this day.

There is no tomb of Solomon and the temple of Solomon does not exist, not a single brick or pottery from such a temple remains to this day.

anachronism?

2 Chronicles 8
1. Solomon had built the house of the Lord, and his own house
2. That the *cities *which *Huram *had *restored *to Solomon,
4. He built *Tadmor *in the wilderness and all the store cities, which he built in *Hamath*.

Tadmor is Palmyra _(Θαδάμορα, Πάλμυρα)_



In 2 Chronicles 8:4 the term "store cities" (ערי המסכנות) is the same phrase in Exodus 1:11 "treasure cities" (ערי מסכנות) and מסכנות seems to be Phoenician for σκηνημάτων or σκηνώματος.  Suggesting these are allotments given to soldiers.



> Flavius Josephus, The Antiquities of the Jews, 8.164
> for he sent a sufficient number of men thither for pilots, and such as were skillful in navigation, to whom Solomon gave this command: That they should go along with his own stewards to the land that was of old called *Ophir*, but now the *Aurea Chersonesus*, which belongs to *India*, to fetch him gold. And when they had gathered four hundred talents together, they returned to the king again.
> Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 8.164



This is anachronistic, according to Josephus, Solomon was trading with India, by sea.  But this requires the Suez Canal, which was completed during the reign of Darius I.

Esther 1:1 _from India even unto Ethiopia (KJV)_

The Phoenician here is מהדו ועד־כוש which means ἀπὸ Ανόδου ἕως Σκύθου "from the journey-inland as far as Scythia".


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## Gladius (Today at 2:15 PM)

Lee_Magee said:


> Esther 1:1 _from India even unto Ethiopia (KJV)_
> 
> The Phoenician here is מהדו ועד־כוש which means ἀπὸ Ανόδου ἕως Σκύθου "from the journey-inland as far as Scythia".



Please provide the place where it says "Kush" is translated to "Scythia".
Please provide the place where it says "Hodu / הדו / India" means "journey-inland".

In your dearest Septuagint, that line was not even included, or was omitted in Esther 1:1.
I could not find any reference to what you just said.
If you lack proofs, it's ok to cite that you're making speculations, but kindly do not express your 'findings' as if it was common knowledge or an obvious truth. ("This means that which in X means this"), as it seems to be the way every single one of your messages goes like.
Thanks.


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## Lee_Magee (44 minutes ago)

Eurphrates and Tigris are the two rivers of Scythia, that are mentioned in Genesis 2, alongside Cush.

Isaiah 18:1 נהרי־כוש  ~ ῥοῦς Σκυθικοὶ ~ Scythian Rivers



> Xenophon, Anabasis 2.4.25
> From the *Tigris *they marched four stages, twenty parasangs, to the *Physcus river*, which was a plethrum in width and had a bridge over it. There was situated a large city named Opis



Genesis 2:11
The name of the first _is_ *Pison *(Φύσκων, פישון) which _compasseth _the whole land of *Havilah *(Βαβυλωνία, הוילה)



> Pliny - The Natural History 6.31
> Between these peoples and Mesene is *Sittacene*, which is also called Arbelitis and _Palæstine_. Its city of *Sittace *s of* Greek origin*; this and Sabdata lie to the east, and on the west is Antiochia, between the two rivers *Tigris and Tornadotus*, as also Apamea, to which Antiochus gave this name, being that of his mother. *The Tigris surrounds this city,* which is also traversed by the waters of the Archoüs.



This river also called Tornadotus _(from τόρνος 'compasses ) _and Pliny, mentions the city of *Sittace*, of Greek origin.



> Xenophon, Anabasis 2.4.13
> Then they reached the Tigris river, near which was a large and populous city named *Sittace*, fifteen stadia from the river. The Greeks accordingly encamped beside this city, near a large and beautiful *park (παραδείσου*)



Besides the river Tigris, near *Sittace*, there was a large and beautiful park, that is called *παράδεισος *in Xenophon, which is also the word for עדן (Eden).



> Diodorus Siculus, Library 17.110
> After this he marched with his army from *Susa*, crossed the *Tigris*, and encamped in the villages called Carae.  Thence for four days he marched through *Sittacene *and came to the place called Sambana. There he remained seven days and, proceeding with the army, came on the third day to the Celones, as they are called. There dwells here down to our time a settlement of *Boeotians *who were moved in the time of Xerxes's campaign, but still have not forgotten their ancestral customs. [5] They are bilingual and speak like the natives in the one language, while in the other they preserve most of the Greek vocabulary, and they maintain some Greek practices
> Diodorus Siculus,  Library, Book XVII, Chapter 110



Alexander found a settlement of Boeotians (Βοιώτιοι > יהודי) living in that area, a bilingual Greek colony.



> Herodotus 7.3
> Demaratus son of Ariston had come up to *Susa*, in *voluntary exile* from *Lacedaemonia *after he had lost the kingship of Sparta.



Nehemiah 1:1, Esther 1:2 - I was in the city of *Susa*


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