# King Arthur in Hyperborea & The Arctic Mud Flood Cataclysm.



## Felix Noille (Sep 14, 2020)

*Introduction*​The bulk of the research I have completed on this subject was collected some years ago for my own personal benefit and I never envisioned that I would be presenting it for general consumption in a forum, so the sources may be a little sketchy, for which I apologise in advance.

The Arthurian Legend is universal and international. He even crops up in Japanese culture as the legendary ‘Yamato-takeru’. The Ossetians of the north-central Caucasus preserve a corpus of legends about an Arthurian-type hero called ‘Batraz’. The British tradition is usually considered to be the definitive source – especially by the British, but he can also be found in the French, Danish, Spanish, Italian and Norwegian ones. For me this points to a common, ancient source that has probably been obscured and mutilated in exactly the same way as all of the other original sources of the phenomena presented on this forum.


*Holger Danske (Ogier le Dane) sits under Kronborg Castle ready to rescue Denmark in its next hour of need.*
_Source_​It isn’t my intention to get into a debate about Arthur’s authenticity or identity, the horse has already bolted on that issue, in my opinion and by now the waters are so muddy it’s impossible to catch even a glimpse of the bottom.

As this post is long, I have written a ‘Contents’ with brief descriptions so as to save anyone the trouble of reading the whole thing before discovering they weren’t interested...

*Please note*: T_he names and dates may have been changed or invented to protect the guilty._

*CONTENTS*​
*1. The Lost or Burnt Books*
_Sources of the King Arthur legends._​*2. The Septentrional Islands*
_The inspiration behind the Hyperborean North Pole maps._​*3. King Arthur in The Northern Lands*
_From whence cometh the idea of King Arthur in the Arctic._​*4. Arthur’s Quest to the North Pole*
_A little known Arthurian adventure._​*5. The Minorite Conundrum*
_The religious fly in the ointment._​*6. The trail of the Inventio Fortunata*
_Christopher Columbus, Piri Reis..._​*7. A dodgy Merchant Adventurer lurking in the shadows*
_A strong suggestion of suspicious characters behind the scenes._​*8. The Tidal Respiration of the World’s Oceans*
_Is water the breath of the Earth?_​*9. Paradise Lost*
_The universal tradition of a northern Polar origin._​*10. Paradise Found*
‘_Phantom’ islands in the Arctic._​*11. The Arctic Mud Flood and Flash-Freeze*
_Geological evidence and a real live Mammoth._​*12. The Once and Future King*
_The universal tradition of a returning saviour._​*13. Conclusion*
_Putting it all together._​*14. Antarika*
_Ever so slightly off topic._​​***

*1. The Lost or Burnt Books*​
The oldest surviving works on Arthur comprise:

_Historia Brittonum_ c.828
Adam of Bremen's ‘_Gesta Hammaburgensis Ecclesia Pontificum_’ c. 1075.
Geoffrey of Monmouth's _Historia regum Britanniae_, c. 1138
_Leges Anglorum Londoniis Collectae_, c. 1210
William Lambarde's ‘_Archaionomia sive de Priscus Anglorum Legibus libri_’, 1568.
These are the books that _*have been allowed to survive*_ because they depict an image of Arthur that is suitable for public consumption – a heroic champion and crusader of the Christian faith. The lost books are the ones that have been hunted down and destroyed because they don’t fit in with the official narrative. These are precisely the books that are far more likely to contain the truth. I realise I am firmly in  _@Jim Duyer_ territory here and I’m relying on his generosity to put me straight regarding early Anglo-Saxon sources that I’m not aware of.

The main pivot of this ‘tale’ rests on two different books. Both of them are ‘lost’:

‘_*Inventio Fortunata*_’ (The Blessed Discovery)
‘_*Gestis Arthuri*_ ’ (The Deeds of Arthur)
Despite its title, the _Inventio Fortunata_ isn’t a Harry Potter spell book. All we have left of these two books are references to them. The most prominent of these are from our old 16th century friends, Dr. John Dee, Gerardus Mercator and his map-making pals, plus a certain *Jacobus Cnoyen* of Hertogenbosch (in present-day Netherlands). He summarised the _Inventio Fortunata_ as it was related to him in 1364 in Norway by a Franciscan monk who had met the author. Cnoyen’s own travel-book was called the ‘_Itinerarium_’, but guess what, this book has also been lost, or rather suppressed.


*AD 50 ‘Roman’ fresco depiction of a globe with a north pole mountain, originally misinterpreted as a sundial.*
_Source_

*2. The Septentrional Islands*​The _Inventio Fortunata_ described a very different topography for the Arctic Circle to that which we have been told exists today and was the authoritative basis for mainstream maps, globes and atlas’ for more than 150 years when that particular configuration of land around the North Pole was censored from the public’s awareness by simply and literally erasing it from the maps.



Martin Behaim’s globe of 1492 was the first ever to be centred on the North Pole itself and shows a series of islands encircling it. Two larger islands are depicted right near the Pole in the western hemisphere, while extensions of Europe and Asia reach northwards. Together they form a broken circle of land around the Pole.

A world map by Johannes Ruysch, the _Universalior cogniti orbis tabula_, published in an edition of Ptolemy’s Geographia in Rome in 1508, actually mentions the_ Inventio Fortunata_ and shows the same four islands around the North Pole; two are labelled “_Insula Deserta_”; the one north of Europe is that of the _Hyperboreans_; and the one north of America is labelled “_Aronphei_.” He labels the waters within the four islands as the “_Mare Sugenum_,” and speaks of a violent whirlpool that sucks the incoming waters down into the earth; in addition, his map shows a ring of small, very mountainous islands around the four main islands, which Ruysch says are uninhabited. A high magnetic rock at the Arctic Pole is also described.


_*Johannes Ruysch, the Universalior cogniti orbis tabula,  1508*_​
There are many, many other contemporary maps –literally scores, including examples from as late as the 1700s, that show the same configuration of islands around the Pole. There are even Chinese maps that show the northern islands (e.g. Shanhai Yudi Quantu, Complete Geographic Map of the Mountains and Seas, 1609). These Chinese maps are derived from the world maps of the Jesuit missionary Matteo Ricci (1552-1610.) Mercator-influenced maps also appear in Japan: Abe Yasuyuki’s Banukoku Chikyu Yochi Zenzu or Map of the World (1853), shows the four northern islands.

Please see this excellent thread for a detailed discussion of Hyperborean maps.

The most famous _Inventio Fortunata_ inspired map is Mercator’s 1569 World Map with its Polar Insert. Map collectors have been saying for decades that this map contains details such as the island in the Hudson Bay and the 2 major rivers that feed into it, that were unknown to other cartographers and didn’t appear on maps until the 19th century, 300 years later.


The island on the bottom right is labelled: “Here live pygmies no more than 4 feet tall like those in Greenland that are called ‘Skraelinger’”.

Upper left, describes 4 rivers with 19 openings to the ocean, All flow north and empty into the central sea then pass to the inner earth through a 33 league (114 mile) wide canyon below the mountain.

Lower left, “healthiest and most fabulous island in the North”.

Top right identifies the islands as the Bargu (Bargos) islands. A later version claims that they rotate around the pole and that compass needles always point south. On the back of the later version it states that when navigating in the Bargos Islands all compass directions must be reversed. Also mentions the six months of darkness and daylight, the aurora borealis, the sound of bells in the far north and the ‘Monochar Order’.

The island to the north of Pygmy-land is labelled: “This narrow channel has a harbour and due to its narrowness and swift current never freezes.”

*3. King Arthur in The Northern Lands*​On the 20 April 1577, Gerardus Mercator replied to a letter from John Dee which Dee later published in a manuscript entitled "Volume of Great and Rich Discoveries". Dee was questioning Mercator with regard to the provenance of the Polar insert on his 1569 Arctic map. Mercator had borrowed Cnoyen’s ‘_Itinerarium_’ from a friend and detailed all of his notes from it to Dee in the letter. Unfortunately Dee’s manuscript has been badly damaged by fire, but enough remains to gain a very good idea of the _Inventio Fortunata’s_ contents.

*Mercator's letter to John Dee*​
Around 1577 or 1578 John Dee wrote a book entitled "_Brytanici Imperii Limites_" (The Limits of the British Empire), which is a compilation of 4 documents originally written for Queen Elizabeth I and assembled under his supervision in 1593, then placed in the Crown’s Archives. It was only rediscovered in 1976, and is now in the British Library.

To establish some frame of reference for the original documents’ time period, London was full of interest in the ‘New World’ and Martin Frobisher had returned from his first voyage to what is now Baffin Island, Canada. Sir Humphrey Gilbert was applying for his letters patent to colonise all of North America north of Florida. England was desperately looking for ways to discredit the Spanish claim to America.

In his _Brytanici Imperii Limites_, Dee argued that because King Arthur had once extended his kingdom to include Ireland, Greenland, Iceland and parts of the North Pole, so too might Queen Elizabeth I. He also argued that England should lay claim to new lands through colonisation and that this could be achieved through maritime supremacy. He also included ‘Atlantis’ in his list of acquisitions, but everyone will tell you what he really meant was ‘America’, even though everyone else seemed to be calling it Terra Florida at the time.

It would be easy to discount this concept as the ravings of madman who was basing such a wild claim on nothing more than a fantasy and who was simply trying to gain favour with the Queen, but he had proof and he wasn’t the first to associate Arthur with northern conquests.


_Source_​
“_Note the Colonies sent by King Arthur into all the north Islands and by name into Grocland, which I yet suppose to be the same which is otherwise anciently known as Groenland [i.e., Greenland] and of that you had the word before owt of the boke De Priscus Anglorum Legibus” (_Dee assumes that Grocland is Greenland based solely upon the shared ‘Gr’. However, on Mercator's globe Grocland lies west of Greenland and may be a representation of the Arctic Baffin Island.)

The source he refers to was William Lambarde's _Archaionomia sive de Priscus Anglorum Legibus libri_ (1568), which Dee had a copy of in his famous library. This same source was also known to Richard Hakluyt, another proponent of an Arthurian Atlantic and Arctic empire, who would translate it later in his ‘_Principal Nauigations_’ (1599):

“_Arthur which was sometimes the most renowned king of the Britains, was a mightie, and valiant man, and a famous warriour. This kingdome was too litle for him, & his minde was not contented with it. He therefore valiantly subdued all Scantia, which is now called Norway, and all the Islands beyond Norway, to wit, Island [i.e., Iceland] and Greenland, which are apperteining vnto Norway, Sweueland, Ireland, Gotland, Denmarke, Semeland, Windland [Latin text, Winlandiam], Curland, Roe, Femeland [i.e., Finland], Wireland, Flanders, Cherilland, Lapland, and all the other lands & Islands of the East sea, euen vnto Russia (in which Lapland he placed the Easterly bounds of his Brittish Empire) and many other Islands beyond Norway, euen vnder the North pole, which are appendances of Scantia, now called Norway.”_

William Lambarde himself had a very clear source for the text he gave in his _Priscus Anglorum Legibus_ - a manuscript of the _Leges Edwardi Confessoris_ that contained an Arthurian section taken from the _Leges Anglorum Londoniis Collectae_, from c. 1210. (I hope you’re following this because I’m not sure I do…) The tradition of Arthur as an Arctic conqueror must certainly go back to at least the very early thirteenth century.


*Arthur & Lancelot*
_Source_​
Even older evidence comes from a fragment of a text known as _Insule Britannie_, c.1199. Whilst it makes no mention of Arthur by name, it lists a number of northern islands as being "British" possessions, all but one of which are also named (in similar spellings) as constituent parts of Arthur's British Empire in the _Leges Anglorum_. This would indicate that there was an even earlier source than the _Leges_ and the _Insule Britannie, _now ‘lost’. It’s unlikely that they are simply elaborations of Geoffrey of Monmouth's _Historia Regum Britanniae_, given their very different concept of Arthur. Similarly, Geoffrey of Monmouth’s source, the _Historia Brittonum_ c.828, with its ‘dux bellorum’ or military leader, bears no relation to the King Arthur of the _Leges_ and the _Insule Britannie._ It is highly likely that the lost source is the _*Gestae Arthuri*._ Both the _Leges Anglorum_ and the _Insule Britannie_ are sanitised versions of it with falsified incorporations from Adam of Bremen's _Gesta Hammaburgensis Ecclesia Pontificum_ of c. 1075, whereby the account of the Christian conversion of Norway (begun by John, an English bishop, and spread by Olaf, king of Norway), was transferred to Arthur.

*Eirik the Red* is also claimed to have discovered and subjugated Greenland and Vinland in the ninth or tenth century. These Norse sagas reported in detail the discovery voyages of Iceland, Greenland and Vinland. However and very importantly, the _Gestae Arthuri_ has the knowledge of these lands as a precondition – there is no discovery required. Also, if the _Gestae Arthuri_ is simply transferring the Norse tales to Arthur, why do the Norse sagas never mention the Hyperborea region at all? Besides, the _Gestae Arthuri_ may even predate Eirik the Red’s adventures.  Also “when the Norse first landed on Iceland, they found it inhabited by a British people that they termed the “Pappar”, whom they promptly drove extinct.” Good luck trying to find any decent information on these Pappars. _Source_

“_Dee went to some pains to legitimize his Arthurian material, complaining that the profusion of "fables, glosinges, vntruthes, and impossibilities, incerted in the true historie of King Arthure" meant that the "truth yt selfe" of Arthur's historical acts, as Dee conceived it, was often disbelieved or ignored, and can only be retrieved through a purging of the parasitic legends that had gathered around it... Having weeded out the "untruths" from the Arthurian narratives he had gathered, Dee could confidently proclaim that Arthur had conquered Gaul, Scandinavia, Iceland, Greenland, all the northern islands around Russia (i.e., the entire Arctic Ocean abutting northern Europe, Estotiland—which may be the Canadian Baffin Island, if it describes a real place), as well as the North Pole itself.”_ _Source_

In his _Brytanici Imperii Limites_ Dee states that there once were many proofs of Arthur's conquests, but "_willfully and wickedlie (as by sondrie credible gentlemen I have heard it testefied), this Polijdor [__Polydore Vergil__] burnt [them], yea a whole carte load almost_"

Dee's concept of Arthur as a North Atlantic and Arctic conqueror doesn’t appear to have been his own invention.


_Source_

*4. Arthur’s Quest to the North Pole*​What follows is a story about King Arthur that doesn’t equate with any character of romantic fiction…

In northern Norway (which is also called dark Norway [because] it is dark three months on end, the sun never rising above the horizon) there is sometimes a sort of dawn ... The passage to North Norway is not easy because of the fast flowing seas which flow past Grocland … This North Norway stretches to those mountains which surround the North Pole in a circular course. These are the mountains of which it is written that they were among them certain cities, as you can find mentioned in the _Arthuri Gestis_, and over against them dwell people of small stature, mentioned in the same work. These things, and more besides, concerning the northern regions can be found at the beginning of the _Arthuri Gestis_. Long ago the islands lying in the North were called the Ciliae, now the Septentrionals, and among them were North Norway and many small rivers which are called the Indrawing Seas because their waters are pulled towards the North with a great constant force, such that no wind can drive a ship against them. And in this attitude there are very high mountains reaching to the clouds, and in this attitude the air is very often murky and dark.

In the 78th degree of latitude (like a crown or circlet) there stand around the North Pole immensely high mountains over most of the land, but in some places there are reports that these Indrawing Seas, [are] in some places up to 50, 60, or 100 leagues across (some broader but others narrower) which everywhere pull to the North. One group of Arthur’s knights sailed thus far when he was conquering the Northern Isles and making them all subject to him. And in the writings of the ancients it is stated that these Indrawing seas snatched from Arthur some 4000 men who never returned, but [that], in 1364  eight of the descendants of these men returned to the King of Norway, and among them were two priests, one of whom had an astrolabe, and he was descended by five generations from [a man named] Bruxellensis, who … was in one of the first ships to penetrate those northern regions.

That Great Army of Arthur had lain all the winter (of 530 AD) in the northern islands of Scotland. And on May 3 a part of it crossed over into Iceland. Then four ships of the aforesaid land had come out of the north and warned Arthur of the indrawing seas. Arthur did not proceed further but peopled all the islands between Scotland and Iceland, and also peopled Grocland, where he found people 23 feet tall. When those four ships returned there were sailors who asserted they knew where the magnetic lands were.


_Source_​
On May 3 the following year Arthur then sent 12 ships with 1800 men and 400 women northwards. Of these 12 ships, five were driven onto the rocks in a storm but the rest made their way between the high rocks on June 18, forty-four days after they had set out. (Please note: *seven* ships made land.)

The priest who had the astrolabe told the King of Norway that there had come to the Northern Isles in 1360 an English Minorite from Oxford, who was a good astronomer. He, leaving the others who had come to these islands, set off further throughout all the northern regions and put into writing all their wonders, and gave the resulting book, which he called _*Inventio Fortunae*, _to the King of England. This book begins from the furthest clime, from 54°, and continues all the way to the Poles. This Franciscan reported that these mountains surround the Pole without a break except in those places where the Indrawing seas break through.”

Some things not mentioned by Dee that were included in Mercator’s letter are:

_North Norway lies “over against” the country called The Province of Darkness._
_The Province of Darkness is the most westernbound of the Grand Cham’s land.  [*F*: Tartaria/China.]_
_Just 12 miles of sea separate The Province of Darkness from Dusky Norway._
_Right under the North Star, opposite Norway, there lies a fair level land which is uninhabited, where many beautiful… (burnt and illegible.)_
_Evidence of previous human settlement in the form of shipbuilding remnants were discovered in Iceland and Grocland._
_"There are many trees of Brazil wood" in Markland (Labrador)._
_Detailed descriptions of the magnetic rock at the north pole, as high as the clouds and the whirlpool around its base._
_Details of the polar geography and the extremely temperate weather._
To summarise: Here we have King Arthur on an expedition to specifically penetrate the circular mountain range surrounding the North Pole, where there are cities. Five generations later, eight descendants of Arthur’s men returned to Norway. Two of the eight were priests. One of the priests states that four years earlier a group of people visited them in the Northern Isles, one of whom was an English Minorite Monk from Oxford who was a good astronomer and had swapped his astrolabe with this priest for a “Testament”. This monk then set off on his own to explore the northern regions. He described all the wonders of the islands in a book that he called the _Inventio Fortunata_ and at some point gave it to the King of England who then sent the monk to do monkey-business on his behalf five times.


*Arctic symbolism in Glastonbury, UK*
_Source_​
*Preiddeu Annwfn *_(Edit __21/02/2020 begins__)_
This is a poem from The Book of Taliesin that was first written down in the ninth century, but has been shown to date from the sixth century. In this poem Arthur and his heroes journey through wild waters to a strange and frozen land to rescue Gweir and to find a cauldron.

The title, 'Preiddeu Annwfn', means ‘The Raid on Annwfn’, although most scholars translate it as ‘The Spoils of Annwfn’. The Avalon of later Arthurian legends was known as Annwn or Annwfn to the earlier Celts. The word is traditionally translated "otherworld."  Alternative translations are "un-world," "very-deep," and "extreme world." It’s a place that you can sail to by ship and also a place you can rule over or rather be a guardian of – given the right circumstances. It is not a Celtic "underworld," per se and has only been associated with Hell due to later Christian influences. Within the context of this post, I am taking it as another regerence to the ‘Hyperborean’ region at the North Pole.

Annwfn is generally associated with hills mountains and islands. In the poem we are told that it’s a series of islands to which King Arthur and his men journey in search of a magic cauldron and to free Gweir from his imprisonment in chains. Although the poem mentions eight different caers (fortresses or castles), most ‘scholars’ insist that the action takes place in one location with eight different names. This is due to the insistence that this one location is Lundy, a small island off the coast of Cornwall in the Bristol Channel. In Welsh it is known as Ynys Weir or Wair, "Gweir's Island”. However, this would make sense if it was called Gweir’s Prison rather than his Island, but what makes even more sense is that Gweir is the name of the celtic sun god and no doubt from some point it probably looks like the sun sets on the island at a certain time of year.

So, in the poem Gweir has been imprisoned within Caer Sidi (Mound Fortress or Fortress of the fairy-folk - possibly the ‘Skraelinger’ mentioned in Mercator’s Polar Insert map), where he is bound in chains and ‘singing woefully’ before the treasure or spoils of Annvn, which also seems to be imprisoned along with him. This situation is due to the actions of Pwyll and Pryderi. In a tale from the First Branch of The Mabinogi, Pwyll exchanges place and shape with Arawn, who is the king of Annwn. Pryderi was Pwyll’s son, who through some foolishness plunged the land (Dyfed) into chaos turning it into a wasteland where all the people and livestock disappeared in mist, except for his closest relatives. So, by all accounts, Pryderi was a bit of a disaster and his father had also been up to no good when he obtained his mother Rhiannon’s hand in marriage by deception and murder. It’s no surprise then that these two had done something to cause the imprisonment of the sun god, Gweir and the treasures of Annwn.


This imprisonment and binding in chains sounds like an allegory for there being no sun for an extended period – chaining it up would stop it from rising. In other words, darkness and cold descended upon the land thanks to something that Pwyll and Pryderi had done by virtue of the position they held as rulers or guardians of Annwn.

At the end of each verse in the poem there is a repetition of the same information whereby we are told that three shiploads of ‘Prydwen’ (Arthur’s ship) set sail or went into the fortresses, but only seven returned. As a unit of measure a ‘Prydwen’ is not of much use to us these days. Perhaps there is something lost in translation and maybe a ‘shipload of Prydwen’ is simply a squadron of ships of which seven ships returned. If we take it at face value, then it seems ludicrous that Arthur had just one ship and had to make three separate journeys to ferry his men to their destination.

The second verse speaks of Caer Pedryvan or the Four-Peaked Fortress, ‘four its revolutions’, in the Isle of The Strong Door. This is reminiscent of Mercator’s Polar Insert: “_Top right identifies the islands as the Bargu (Bargos) islands. A later version claims that they rotate around the pole_”. The verse goes on to discuss the Cauldron of the Ruler of Annwn.

In Celtic lore the cauldron is the symbol of the Otherworld in that it symbolises the womb of the Great Goddess whereby everything is born out of it and returns to it. It is also a symbol of rebirth, the hearth, of abundance and of well being. Ancient Celtic tales tell of cauldrons that no one ever went away from hungry and cauldrons that, when the dead were thrown into them, would bring the them back to life. The cauldron is common to many Celtic stories and they are described as great treasures with magical powers.

In the Celtic tradition, *Bran *is one of the father-figure gods and a giant. It is told that when he lay down over a river, an army could march across him. He is also *king of the otherworld*/underworld (i.e. the ruler of Annwn), and watches over the treasures of ‘*Don*’, the Mother Goddess (*Danu* in the Irish tradition). These treasures are the animals, plants, insects, birds and the fabric of life itself of the Earth. So Bran is a king in the Celtic sense in that he was *guardian* to and of the goddess. He is also the god of Bards. Bran is associated with Avalon/Annvn, and one of the places his head is said to be buried is there.

What’s intended by showing that the cauldron of the Ruler of Annvn is imprisoned with the sun god Gweir is that the fabric of life itself - the treasures of the Mother goddess – are no longer under the guardian’s control.

The cauldron of the guardian of Annwn is described as being the same one from which the first word was spoken (i.e.creation) when it was gently warmed by the breath of nine maidens.

‘The Nine Maidens’ is another universal symbol and can be found in many cultures. For example, the Greek tale in which the nine Muses gave inspiration to humans. They are generally known as being island dwellers. The poet Taliesin himself was gifted by the nine maidens when three drops of ‘the life force’ or ‘inspiration’ accidentally fell on his hand as he was stirring their cauldron. In modern Arthurian material, the best known of these groups are the Nine Sorceresses, Morgan and her sisters, who live on the Isle of Avalon and are both seeresses and healers.

Pomponius Mela (c.43 AD) makes mention of a group of nine sorceresses or holy women who were known to *inhabit an island* in the west. “In the Brittanic Sea, opposite the coast of the Ossismi, the isle of Sena (Sein) belongs to a Gallic divinity and is famous for its oracle, whose priestesses, sanctified by perpetual virginity are reportedly nine in number” He further says “They call the priestesses Gallisenae and think that because they have been endowed with unique powers, they stir up the seas and winds by their magic charms, that they turn into whatever animals they want, that they cure what is incurable among other peoples, that they know and predict the future, but that it is not revealed except to sea-voyagers and then only to those travelling to consult them.” In the Celtic tradition animals bridge the natural and supernatural worlds, acting as a connection which allows shape-shifting and accounts for ‘familiars’.

In the poem there then follows a difficult section that nobody understands very well. It seems that the cauldron was recovered by means of a magical sword and left in the hands of ‘Leminawc’, who may be Arthur himself. As a result of this the lamps leading the way to the gates of hell were lit. Caer Vedwyd (Castle of the Perfect Ones) is mentioned. Undaunted, they fight on to the next verse.

Overcoming a jet black turbulent sea, they reach Caer Rigor (Frozen Castle, Fortress of Hardness). Next up is Caer Wydyr (The Glass Fortress) where either six thousand or sixty men stood upon the walls and they were difficult to communicate with. Caer Golud (Fortress of Hindrance) is also mentioned.

Verses five and six are difficult. Taliesin seems to be ‘ranting’ against ignorance. There is mention of Caer Vandwy (Castle on High, Fortress of God's Peak) and Caer Ochren (Castle of Shelving Sides [entered from a slope], Fortress of Enclosedness [not a real word]).

The final verse is quite clearly a rant against monks who learn only by rote from their superiors, who in turn no nothing of the real world. The poem ends with the enigmatic phrase “crist am gwadawl”, which probably either means ‘Christ be my saviour’ or ‘Christ be my follower’. Personally I think he meant the latter.

Coincidentally, on the subject of monks, the *'Navigation of St. Brendan'* is one of the most proliferate of surviving medieval texts, although this character was supposedly concurrent with Taliesin. Ostensibly, it’s the tale of the abbot, St. Brendan, it tells of his adventures with *a crew of monks* exploring the isle of promise (Avalon/Annwn) in that mysterious Celtic Otherworld reached over western seas. It's hard to overestimate its popularity over the years. There are at least 116 surviving Latin manuscripts as well as versions in Middle English, German, French, Italian, Flemish, Norse and Provencal. [Please note: The Book of Taliesin never got such a wide circulation.]

St. Brendan was born around the end of the 5th Century in Clonfert, France, where he also died. His ashes were buried in Notre-Dame-d’Aynès. The book’s first draft is claimed to be between the 7th and the 8th Centuries. It describes a seven year voyage to ‘Paradise’ full of events and strange encounters: Island by high cliffs, Island of the giant sheep, the great whale, the Paradise of Birds, the elders of the community of Saint Albeo, Island of blacksmiths (the Hell), Judas Iscariot, the hermit Paul (episodes where one can find similarities with Imram, the Apocalypse or medieval texts describing voyages to the Holy Land, or even with the Aeneid, the Odyssey or Germanic mythology)… Chapters 36 and 37 again describe the Island of the Blessed, while chapter 38 tells of the return home and the serene death of the Saint. _Source_

There is little doubt that the ‘Navigation of St. Brendan' is catholic propaganda and 99% fiction. However, could it include some information from the _Inventio Fortunata_? As we shall see, there is evidence to suggest that it does.

Sources for edited section:
Annwfn
Cauldron
Cauldron - The Witchipedia
https://thepaganandthepen.wordpress.com/2010/09/30/ogham-g-gort-ivy/ç
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_maidens_(mythology)
Navigation of St. Brendan, from Lundy Isle of Avalon by Mystic Realms
_(Edit __21/02/2020 ends__)_


_Source_​Perlesvaus is said to be a continuation of Chrétien de Troyes' unfinished Perceval, the Story of the Grail. The anonymous author of the story claims that the original Latin text was taken from the Isle of Avalon, from a holy religious house which stands at the head of the Lands Adventurous, where lies King Arthur and his Queen, by the testimony of the worthy religious men who dwell there, and who have the whole story, true from beginning to end. The Isle of Avalon is also referred to as The *Fortunate* Isle (_*Isla Fortunata*_). So, could Inventio Fortunata also mean *the Discovery of Avalon*?

*5. The Minorite Conundrum*​Dee was convinced that the “English Minorite from Oxford” was Hugo of Ireland, an adventurer and author from c.1360, about whom absolutely nothing is known. A certain Nicholas of Lynne has also been put forward as the favourite, but he was a Caramelite, not a Minorite, which was the wrong flavour altogether. More recently some historians suggested that the priest who reported to the king of Norway in 1364 was Ivar Bardsson. England was fairly well connected with Norway at the time through the trading activities of the Hanseatic League.

The claim that eight people from Arthur’s Hyperborean colony visited Norway in 1364 and that they were the 5th generation descendants of the original settlers doesn’t make any sense. Even John Dee noted this in his handwritten notes in the margin of Mercator’s letter:

“_fortè.[maybe] 25 gradu. [generations] I mean in the 25 generation, at the least, after King Arthur, his tyme allowing longer Ages, than now the generall rate is at: betwene 25 & 30 yeres to a generation.”_

5 generations after 530 AD is about 680 AD, so the 1360 dates don’t work. Dee questions the number of generations rather than the 14th century dates and even seems to think that people lived longer in Arthur’s time. These dates come from Jacobus Cnoyen via Mercator who was able to study Cnoyen’s book, _Itinerarium _and seems to have been one of the last people to do so before it vanished from the face of the earth, along with any other information about its author. Cnoyen’s English *Minorite* Monk from Oxford had his entire adventure between 1360 and 1364 – just 4 years.


_Source_​“The Order of Friars Minor, previously known as the "Observant" branch… The latter two, the Capuchin and Conventual, remain distinct religious institutes within the Catholic Church, observing the Rule of Saint Francis with different emphases. Conventual Franciscans are sometimes referred to as *minorites* or greyfriars because of their habit... _Source_

Nine Franciscans turned up in Oxford (the intellectual capital of England) around 1224. “The Franciscan involvement at Oxford would change the intellectual face of Europe.” _Source_

“In these years the Oxford Franciscans were distinguished by zeal for poverty no less than by zeal for learning. In the custody of Oxford pillows were not allowed, and the wearing of shoes or sandals was permitted only to the old and infirm...

“In 1346 Edward III granted to the Friars Minors of Oxford 60 square feet of his quarry near Wheatley in Shotover Forest for the repair of their church and other buildings...

“In 1358 Archbishop Islip… authorized five Franciscans of the Oxford convent and three of the Cambridge convent to preach in the diocese of Canterbury...

“William de Prato, who studied here [Oxford] before 1363, and was in 1370 sent to the Tartars by the pope, as bishop of Pekin and head of the Franciscan mission in Asia.” _Source_


*Greyfriars Monkery, Oxford *
_Source_​So, going to preach in Canterbury from Oxford required authorisation from the Archbish. The pope himself authorised missions to other parts of the world, like Pekin in *Tartaria *and yet we are supposed to believe that an Oxford Minorite takes off barefoot to explore the world on his own for four years. During which time he writes the Hitch-hiker’s guide to The North Atlantic and Arctic Circle, presents his book to the King of England and then becomes his personal emissary to a lost Polar colony. All without any authorisation or record – I don’t think so.

The original, presumably _Gestae Arthuri_, source for Arthur’s assault upon the Arctic, never mentions priests or monks. As usual, whenever religion gets inserted into a story, it all goes pear-shaped. Suddenly all the prominent characters are priests or friars or bishops and we are led to believe that all of mankind’s achievements were made by secular officials. The same occurs today, although not in relation to the Christian religion… the moron Einstein springs to mind, as does Churchill.

Around the 1350s the Franciscans were all fighting amongst themselves and also with the Dominicans. We don’t know if Cnoyen was a Franciscan himself or even a catholic, but somehow his account of what happened in Norway was transformed into Franciscan propaganda. However, by the 16th century, just when people started to take notice of it, Cnoyen’s book had to go. Someone had made a huge blunder with the 5 generations from 530 AD business.

Does this discredit the _Inventio Fortunata_? Well, if Cnoyen’s account was the only evidence for it then maybe, but it wasn’t.

*6. On the trail of the Inventio Fortunata*​Peter Heylyn recounts the _Inventio Fortunata _polar geography as fact in the fourth book of his ‘_Cosmographie_’ in Four Books (London, 1652).

We know from others involved with the book that it contained information down to 18° N. The _Inventio Fortunata_ is mentioned by Christopher Columbus' son, Fernando, and the 16th century historian [Bartolomé de] Las Casas. Both wrote that _Inventio Fortunatae_ contained astonishing information about two floating islands far to the west on approximately the same latitude as the Cape Verde islands (18 degrees north) and that Columbus was aware of this information."
“_A esto decía Cristóbal Colon, que podrían ser aquellos islas de las que tracta Plinieo en su ‘Natural Historia,' que hacia la parte del Septentrión, socaba la mar algunas arboledas de la tierra que tienen tan grandes raíces que las lleva como balsas sobre el agua que desde lejos parecen islas. Ayuda a esto lo que dice Seneca en el libro III de 'Los Naturales.' que hay natura de piedras tan esponjosas y livianas, que hacen dellas en la India unas como islas que van nadando por el agua, y de esta manera debían de ser las que dicen Sant Brandan, en cuya historia diz que se lee que fueron vistas muchas islas de la mar de las islas Cabo Verde o de las Azores, que siempre ardian y debían de ser como las que arriba se han dicho: de lo mismo se hacen mencion en el libro llamado Inventio Fortunata.”_ Historias de las Indias, Documentos Ineditos.

“_Christopher Columbus spoke of this: that the islands referred to by Pliny, in his ‘Natural History’, could be those of the far north, where the sea excavates wooded areas near the shoreline whose roots are so big that they form rafts and the sea pushes them out over the water so that from far away they appear to be islands swimming across the water. They must also be the same as those spoken of by *Saint Brandan* in his story, whereby many islands were seen in the seas of Capo Verde and the Azores that always burn and must be like the ones referred to above: the same is mentioned in the book Inventio Fortunat_a” Bartholomé de las Casas in his ‘Historia de las Indias’ (1570)

These floating and burning Islands are not mentioned in the Mercator/Cnoyens account, but they are apparently mentioned in ‘The Navigation of *Saint Brendan*’.


_Source_​
According to a review of multiple sources (Columbus' son Fernando, Bartolomé de las Casas, and an unknown sailor) by the French author, Kare Prytz, Columbus may have read the book and he may have had a copy on his first voyage:

_"As a young adult Columbus happened upon something that completely changed his life: A book about America. A sailor who went with him on the first three voyages to the New World and who later ended up in Turkish imprisonment, said that it was a coincidence that Columbus came upon the book - and that in it he found all the information he needed for his famous voyage to the West Indies."_ Prytz (1991) p. 97

“_The Admiral's Book” is mentioned by Columbus himself in his diary - for instance during the voyage entries from September 25, October 3, and October 10 of 1492. At this time _[so far as anyone knows]_ there was only one book in existence about America, and that was Inventio Fortunatae,_" Prytz (1991) p. 97

The link between Columbus and the _Inventio Fortunata_ been lost because Columbus’ biography by his son, Fernando, "_has been ‘edited’ (i.e.censored) by translators. Important information about Columbus' knowledge of the far north and the fact that he read Inventio Fortunatae have been removed. So when in doubt, it is necessary to go back to the first edition of 1537._" (Prytz).

“_Et Inventio Fortunato narra, sarsi mentiono de duie altre isole, volte all'occidente, & piu Australi, che le Isole de Capo verde; le quali vanno sopra l’acqua nutando."_

“_As the Inventio Fortunata tells, there is mention of two other islands, far to the west, and more south than the Cape Verde islands, that go swimming over the water._“ (Historie del S.D. Fernando Colombo'' 1571, c.viii.)

The Turkish Admiral *Piri Reis* mentioned an unknown Spanish sailor who was with Columbus on three voyages and was captured by Reis' uncle. Reis wrote an account of the sailor on his famous 1513 world map. Excerpt:

"_For instance, a book fell into the hands of the said Colombo, and he found it said in this book that at the end of the Western Sea [Atlantic] that is, on its western side, there were coasts and islands and all kinds of metals and also precious stones. The above-mentioned, having studied this book thoroughly,... The late Gazi Kemal had a Spanish slave. The above-mentioned slave said to Kemal Reis, he had been three times to that land with Colombo. ...These [Spaniards] were pleased and gave them glass beads. It appears that he [Columbus] had read-in the book that in that region glass beads were valued. Seeing the beads they brought still more fish. These [Spaniards] always gave them glass beads…_"


*Piri Reis* _Source_​
In 1526 *Piri Reis* produced his "Bahriye", a famous illustrated sea atlas of the world. Here he mentioned Columbus' book again and suggested "on hearsay" that it was from classical times.

America was known of in classical times but documentary evidence is slim. The only pre-modern book that we know of concerning America is _Inventio Fortunata_. It was not well-known in Europe and probably unknown to the Turks. There is therefore, a strong possibility that the book Piri Reis mentioned was the _Inventio Fortunata_.

*7. A dodgy Merchant Adventurer lurking in the shadows.*​In 1956 a letter referring to the existence of the _Inventio Fortunata_ was found in the Archivo General de Simancas (Spain). It was written in Spain during the winter of 1497–98 by the Bristol merchant John or Johan Day, alias Hugh Say of London (of whom much more later), to "The Most Magnificent And Most Worthy Lord - The Lord Grand Admiral". John Day writes, "...Your Lordship's servant brought me your letter. I have seen its contents and I would be most desirous and most happy to serve you. I do not find the book _Inventio Fortunata_, and I thought that I (or he) was bringing it with my things, and I am very sorry not [to] find it because I wanted very much to serve you. I am sending the other book of Marco Polo and a copy of the land which has been found [by John Cabot (Newfoundland)]…" The letter also contains a great deal of detailed information regarding John Cabot’s voyages of discovery.


Curiously there is no date on the letter nor any clear indication as to exactly who it was written too. Most sources claim it was written to Columbus. On May 30, 1498, i.e. the spring following the letter, Columbus left Sanlúcar, Spain with six ships for his third trip to the New World. He was accompanied by Bartolomé de Las Casas. We can assume that they were also accompanied by the _Inventio Fortunata_ as it seems that it went with them on all of Columbus’ voyages, which makes it very odd that the ‘Lord Grand Admiral’ would be asking this John Day character to get him a copy.

John or Johan Day, or rather Hugh Say of Bristol, was a member of England’s Merchant Company [The Merchant Adventurers], which was even more powerful than Bristol’s local Society of Merchant Adventurers; they controlled all of England’s textile industry. *The same organisation later sponsored the Pilgrims on the Mayflower. *[<_sound of alarm bells ringing>_] _Source_

The English formed the largest ex-patriot merchant community in Seville’s port of Sanlúcar de Barrameda (Cadíz), after the Genoese. Day was associated with the *di Nigri* *family who employed Columbus in the 1470s*. The internet stubbornly refuses to yield any information on this family. In 1470 he was in Savona, Italy. The first confirmed record of Columbus being at sea is also dated to 1470 when he was hired to serve on the Genoese warship of René d’Anjou.

John Day/Hugh Say did business with Francisco Pinelo, the Genoese royal Treasurer of Castile, and Pinelo’s nephew, Barnardo Pinelo, the treasurer of the Indies enterprise in Seville. Say was related by marriage to Lord Mountjoy, Henry VII’s Master of the Mint. In 1494, he was granted membership in the Bristol staple as “John Day of London, merchant.” Say was also related by marriage to some of the Bristol merchants who sponsored Cabot, and with Icelandic merchants in Bristol [maybe one and the same]. His family supported the Yorkists against Henry VII, which may explain his alias. He wasn’t a very nice person, judging by two Chancery petitions taken out against him for what amounts to fraud c. 1502. _Source_

So this unsavoury character, if he’s even real, was incredibly well connected with all of the various elements involved in the rediscovery of the New World. It seems reasonable to assume that if he owned or was able to get a copy of the _Inventio Fortunata_, that John Cabot also used it for his voyages. *In fact it could be that the Inventio Fortunata was the source and inspiration for all of the so-called voyages of discovery to the New World during the Middle Ages.*

*8.The Tidal Respiration of the World’s Seas*​It should be noted that all of the earliest descriptions of the Far North speak of a whirlpool or whirlpools that control the world’s tides:

_Paul the Deacon (710-790)_
_Adam of Bremen (1050-1083ish), “in which it is said that all the back currents of the sea, which seem to abate, are sucked up and vomited forth again, which latter are usually called the flood tide.”_
_Norse legends include the world’s well, “Hvergelmer,” which causes the tides by pushing and pulling water through its subterranean channels._
_Isidore of Seville (c. 560-636)_
_The Topographia hibernica of Giraldus Cambrensis (1146-1220; his description of the northern whirlpool is cited by Mercator)._
_The Historia norvegiae (c.1180)._
_The Speculum regale (c. 1250) of Einer Gunnarson._
_The Langobard author Paulus Warnefridi (c. 720-790), also called Diaconus: “And not far from the shore which we before spoke of, on the west, where the ocean extends without bounds, is that very deep abyss of waters which we commonly call the ocean’s navel. It is said twice a day to suck the waves into itself, and to spew them out again; as is proved to happen along all these coasts, where the waves rush in and go back again with fearful rapidity.... By the whirlpool of which we have spoken it is asserted that ships are often drawn in with such rapidity that they seem to resemble the flight of arrows through the air; and sometimes they are lost in the gulf with a very frightful destruction. Often just as they are about to go under, they are brought back again by a sudden shock of the waves, and they are sent out again thence with the same rapidity with which they were drawn in._

*Shambala

9. Paradise Lost*​Traditions of a paradisaical, primeval land in the far north are universal. Often this sacred land is said to be located in the 'centre' or 'navel' of the earth. The northern paradise is also associated with a mountain, pillar or a tree from which four rivers emerge.

_The ancient British called it *Avalon*._
_The Indian Vedas call it "Paradesha" or "*Aryavarsha*", the land from which the Vedas came with *Mount Meru* at the centre._
_The *Buddhists* call it "*Shambala*", usually depicted as an eight-petalled lotus blossom._
_The *Chinese* know it as "*Hsi Tien*", the Western Paradise of Hsi Wang Mu, the Royal Mother of the West._
_The *Russians* knew it as "*Belovodye*" and "*Janaidar*"._
_To the *Christians* and the *Jews* it’s the "*Garden of Eden*" with its fountain whence the four great rivers branch out to water the world (see Genesis 2:10-14)._
_The *Egyptians* located their *Ta Neter*, or land of the gods, in the extreme north._
_The *Eskimos* have legends that they came from a fertile land of perpetual sunshine in the north._
_*Greek* mythology speaks of a mysterious northern yet ever-springlike land called *Hyperborea* ('beyond the north wind'), situated beyond the mountains – in some accounts situated under the north pole._
_For the *Orphics*, the island of *Electris*, the seat of the gods, lies under the polestar in the furthest waters of Tethys._
_The *Mandean Gnostics* believed that an ideal earth, an earth of light peopled by a divine race of superhumans, was situated in the north, separated from our world by a high mountain of ice._
_The name *Thule* is said to be of Greco-Roman origin and refers to the furthermost north location. It became popular in classical and medieval literature with the epithet ultima – Ultima Thule – even furthermoster. Pliny the Elder placed it at a six-day journey north of Britain on the fringes of the known world. A place where there is no night during the summer and no daylight during the winter. There are references to blue-painted people, and by the 12th century, they were given a nemesis – *a tribe of very small people*._
_Today there is an echo of these ancient traditions in the fact that children send notes to Santa Claus, or Father Christmas, in his 'wonderland' at the north pole, asking for gifts._

*A Korean world map from the mid 1300s centred on Mount Meru.*
(Wikipedia insists that this mountain is legendary and in Asia) _Source_​
*Theosophy*: The first continent, the Imperishable Sacred Land, surrounded and included the north pole and extended somewhat southwards from the pole in seven different zones, like the leaves of a lotus. These zones included Greenland, Spitzbergen, Sweden, Norway, and Siberia, together with other former land areas in the far north that have since been submerged. The central locality of the first continent was right at the north pole.

From *The Secret Doctrine*:
“_Oriental tradition is ever referring to an unknown glacial, gloomy sea, and to a dark region, within which, nevertheless, are situated the *Fortunate Islands*, wherein bubbles, from the beginning of life on earth, the fountain of life. But the legend asserts, moreover, that a portion of the first dry island (continent), having detached itself from the main body, has remained, since then, beyond the mountains of Koh-Kaf, 'the stony girdle that surrounds the world.' A journey of seven months' duration will bring him who is possessed of 'Sulayman's ring' to that 'fountain,' if he keeps on journeying North straight before him as the bird flies. Journeying therefore from Persia straight north, will bring one along the sixtieth degree of longitude, holding to the west, to __*Novaya Zemlya*;__ and from the Caucasus to the eternal ice beyond the Arctic circle would land one between 60 and 45 degrees of longitude, or between Novaya Zemlya and Spitzbergen._

“_Nevertheless, the wandering songsters of Persia and the Caucasus will maintain, to this day, that far beyond the snow-capped summits of Kap, or Caucasus, there is a great continent now concealed from all._”

Like the Egyptians and the Akkadians, the Indians conceived of two opposed polar mounts: the arctic Meru, known as Sumeru (su = good, beautiful), was the dwelling of the gods, and the Antarctic Meru, or Kumeru (ku = bad, miserable), was the dwelling of the demons.


_*Aryvarsha, home of the Vedas* __Source_​
The Avestan (Zoroastrian) term 'Airyanem Vaejah' (Pahlavi: Eran-Vej) designates the cradleland of the Aryan-Iranians, located not in any of the earth's seven climates, but at the centre of the central zone, the eighth climate. It was there that Yima, the 'first man', received the command to construct a vara, or enclosure, where the most highly developed humans, animals, and plants would be gathered in order to save them from *the deadly winter* unleashed by the demonic powers so that they might one day refurbish a transfigured world.

*10. Paradise Found*​The Flatearther, Isidor of Seville (c. 630) said, "There lies another continent besides the three known ones, beyond the ocean, far up north, and there the sun is warmer than anywhere in our country [Spain]." (_Etymologies_, Bk. 14, Chapter 5).


_*Ellesmere Island*_​
In 1721 Greenland was resettled, but the Viking colonists had disappeared. The Eskimos claimed that they had migrated further and further north, until one day a hunting party returned saying they had discovered a paradise in the north - a place the Eskimos had always known about, but generally stayed away from because they believed it to be inhabited by evil spirits. However, the Vikings all promptly packed their bags, and singing songs, departed happily northward out over the ice and never returned.

In Greenland animals should migrate South for the winter, but in fact they all migrate North, and Northern winds in Greenland are actually warmer than Southern winds during winter. Early arctic explorers inferred that they were heading to a warm land in the north.

In 1904 Dr R.A. Harris of the US Coast and Geodetic Survey published an article explaining why he believed that there must be a large body of undiscovered land or shallow water in the polar basin northwest of Greenland.

Eskimos living on the northern fringes of the Arctic Ocean had a tradition that a landmass existed to the north. Out over the ice towards the northwest of Greenland ...is a land that is warm; is clothed in summer verdure the year around; is populated by fat caribou and musk-ox. It lies," they say even to this day, "in the direction of the coastal trail-route north." (December 1923 issue of Popular Science Monthly)


*Phantom Islands of the Arctic*​
Land has been sighted out over the Arctic wastes by several different explorers from different directions at different times. It is a land that has been sighted always in the same direction, whether seen from Greenland, Alaska or northern Russia. The Russians called it *Sannikov land*, and have seen it north of the New Siberian Islands. Admiral Peary on his way to the pole in 1909 sighted land northwest of Cape Thomas Hubbard on the northwest coast of Ellesmere Island in Northern Canada. With him, Lt. Green, MacMillan and their Eskimos also saw it and even later went on an expedition out on the ice to find it and only turned back when their Eskimos claimed it only to be a mist. MacMillan swore it looked every bit like real land.

Admiral Peary did also and he named it *Crocker Land*. Dr. Cook on his way to the pole in 1906 saw it also towards the northwest of his trek to the pole from Ellesmere Island and even took a picture of it. He named it *Bradley Land*. Then from Harrison Bay on the north coast of Alaska, Captain Keenan sighted land also towards the northwest.

 
_*Bradley Land*_​
The Norwegian arctic explorer, Dr. Fridtjof Nansen, in his book, Farthest North, relates his observations of several anomalous phenomena on his Arctic expedition of 1893-94 in the ship, the Fram. To their surprise out on the ice pack, they found a remarkable number of birds of various kinds including snipe and seagulls, also foxes, walrus and polar bears that indicated they were in the proximity of land towards the north. While waiting out the winter, they took scientific measurements and observations. They found rock and large quantities of *mud* and driftwood on some of the icebergs that indicated to Nansen that much of the *Arctic ice originates in a river*, perhaps further to the north than they were then located - *in some uncharted land*.

*11. Arctic Mud Flood and Flash-Freeze*​(*Please note*: the Mud Flood being discussed here should not be confused with the more recent event of around the 17-1800s)

‘Muck’ - a dark soil containing decomposed animal and vegetable matter - is a major geological mystery. It covers one-seventh of the earth's land surface -- all surrounding the Arctic Ocean. Muck or simply mud as we would call it, occupies treeless, generally flat terrain, with no surrounding mountains from which the muck could have eroded. Russian geologists have in some places drilled through 4,000 feet of muck without hitting solid rock. Where did so much eroded material come from?

"_Though the ground is frozen for 1,900 feet down from the surface at Prudhoe Bay [Alaska], everywhere the oil companies drilled around this area they discovered an ancient tropical forest. It was in frozen state, not in petrified state. It is between 1,100 and 1,700 feet down. There are palm trees, pine trees, and tropical foliage in great profusion. In fact, they found them lapped all over each other, just as though they had fallen in that position_" (Lindsey Williams, The Energy Non-Crisis, 2nd. Edition, 1980, p. 54).


*The Kolma River in Siberia
Mammoth ’fossils’ and forest debris are washed up here - even fresh plums!*​
“Siberian fossil ivory [*F*: this is a misnomer, as anything fossilised is turned to stone] forms the principal material on which the Russian ivory-turner works. The best tusks are found in the countries near the Arctic circle and in the most eastern regions The first discovery of these curious remains was made in 1799 by a Tungusian, named Schumachoff who had embarked to seek along the coasts for mammoth tusks and spotted a huge shapeless mass in the ice. The entire skeleton of this strange animal is now in the Museum at St. Petersburg, and a part of the.skin and some of the hair are deposited in the Museum of the Royal College of Surgeons. The existence of the mammoth has been traced to a period so recent, that it no doubt approached nearly to, if it has not *existed contemporaneously with, man*. In what manner, and by what strange convulsion of nature, these animals were destroyed in the freezing latitudes of the Arctic circle, has never been explained, and will probably ever remain a mystery.” (Routledge's guide to the Crystal Palace and park at Sydenham - G. Routledge & Co. (1854))


_Allegedly Real Live Mammoth_​
The remains of woolly rhino, steppe lions, giant deer, mammoth, foxes and a hardy breed of horse have all been found flash-frozen in the Arctic.

"_Frozen-food experts have pointed out that to do this, starting with a healthy, live specimen, you must drop the temperature of the air surrounding it down to a point well below minus 150 degrees Fahrenheit_" (Ivan T. Sanderson, "Riddle of the Frozen Giants," Saturday Evening Post, Jan. 16, 1960, pp. 82-83).

"_To deep freeze a huge living mammoth, insulated in thick fur...stupendously cold temperatures of below -101 degrees C. (-150 degrees F.) would be required. Such temperatures have never been recorded -- not even in the Arctic." The article goes on: "Apparently, at one moment the mammoth was munching away peacefully at the grass and butter-cups growing lush in the sunshine of a temperate plain. The next it was subjected to cold so bitter that it was deep frozen where it stood." Many of the frozen mammoths have been found in a standing position, surrounded by frozen silt. Their body tissues and stomach contents had not even begun to decompose."_ The Readers' Digest Book of Strange Stories and Amazing Facts.


_*Scotland - no trees* __Source_​
The Caledonian Forest is the name given to the former (ancient old-growth) *temperate rainforest* of Scotland. Most of Scotland used to be covered in forest. Today, native woodland covers just 4% of the total land area. In Scotland, ancient woodland is defined as land that is currently wooded and has been continually wooded since at least 1750. In 1900, only about 5% of Scotland’s land area was wooded. _Source_

The usual Climate Change excuse: “The forest declined over thousands of years, due to both a slow change to a wetter, windier climate and to being felled by man and overgrazed by sheep and most especially deer.” _Source _Those sheep and deer just can’t resist eating trees.

It would appear from The Four Ancient Books of Wales, or the *Mabinogi*, that the northern part of the British Isles was considered to be a barren wilderness full of supernatural activity and not the place for a weekend break. Procopius, the 6th century Greek historian and author of the ‘Secret History’, described this northern wilderness:

"_In this isle of Britain men of ancient time built a long wall, cutting off a great portion of it, for the soil and the men, and all other things, are not alike on both sides; for on the eastern [southern] side of the wall there is a wholesomeness of air, in conformity with the seasons, moderately warm in summer and cool in winter. Many men inhabit here, living much as other men. The trees, with their appropriate fruits, flourish in season, and their corn-lands are as productive as others, and the district appears sufficiently fertilised by streams. But on the western [northern] side all is different, insomuch indeed that it would be impossible for man to live there even half-an-hour. Vipers and serpents innumerable, with all other kinds of wild beasts, infest that place, and what is most strange, the natives affirm that if any one passing the wall should proceed to the other side, he would die immediately, unable to endure the unwholesomeness of the atmosphere. Death also, attacking such beasts as go thither, forthwith destroys them. But as I have arrived at this point of my history, it is incumbent on me to record a tradition very nearly allied to fable, which has never appeared to me true in all respects, though constantly spread abroad by men without number, who assert that themselves have been agents in the transaction, and also hearers of the words. I must not, however, pass it by altogether unnoticed, lest when thus writing concerning the island Brittia I should bring upon myself an imputation of ignorance of certain circumstances perpetually happening there. They say, then, that the souls of men departed are always conducted to this place._"


*Hadrian’s Wall, northern England

12. The Once and Future King*​Tibetan sacred texts prophesies that *a future king* of Shambhala will come with a great army to free the world from barbarism and tyranny, and will usher in a golden age. Similarly, the Hindu Puranas say that a future world redeemer – the kalki-avatara, the tenth and final manifestation of Vishnu – will come from Aryavarsha to end the 'Kali Yuga' era.

There are many such legends from all over the world that tell of heroes who will return to right the wrongs of the world. Even Jesus can be included amongst them. In the case of Arthur and the Buddhist and Vedic prophesies, these heroes are connected with the North Pole. Of all of the racial memories, archetypes, call them what you will, why have these been remembered so universally? Surely this indicates a common ancient source.

 
_*The Bear (Ursa Major) and Arcturus in the Bootes Constellation*_ _Source_​
Arcturus is the 4th brightest star in the heavens and located in the northern constellation of Bootes. “_The name Arcturus is derived from the Greek Αρκτοῦρος (Arktouros) or ἄρκτος (arktos) and οὖρος (ouros), meaning “Bear Watcher” or “*Guardian of the Bear*,” referring to the bear represented by the neighbouring constellation Ursa Major.” Source_These two constellations perpetually circle the North Pole. Arthur has long been associated with Arcturus and also the Bear.

*13. Conclusion*​If civilisation was once centred around the North Pole, as so many legends and scriptures relate and the climate there was mild, even tropical, then it would appear that from this starting point it spread southwards – which is of course in all directions away from north. Alongside all of the many ‘polar paradise’ traditions mentioned above, there are also a similar corpus of legends relating to a worldwide network of tunnels and even a subterranean realm with entrances in the North Pole that lead right across the earth. Many races claim that they ‘appeared’ on the surface from underground. Some of these tunnels have been discovered, particularly in South America. The North Polar source seems to have always been regarded as the spiritual home though.


_Source_​
In the familiar ‘lost civilisation’ myths and legends, such as Atlantis, Lemuria, El Dorado etc., it seems there must always be a tragedy whereby the civilisation is brought to the point of extinction. The Hyperborean tradition is no different in that respect.

From what little as been revealed by the _Inventio Fortunata_ and the _Gestis Arthuri,_ whatever cataclysm took place must have happened _after_ King Arthur’s expedition to the North Polar islands. He was able to sit out a whole winter in Scotland with his army. The islands and places around the pole described by the _Inventio Fortunata_ are not covered in frozen ice… and that bloody monk wouldn’t have lasted 5 minutes with no shoes.

The only reason for Arthur’s mission that we are made aware of is simply conquest and colonisation. However, that was John Dee’s agenda and not necessarily Arthur’s. The legend of Arthur as a uniting hero and champion of justice, whilst echoed in some far flung places, has its nucleus in Europe, especially northern Europe. At the time we are speaking of, it must have been a very different place with the British Isles joined to mainland Europe. Brexit was still a long way off. What could prompt such a character to intervene in such a decisive manner in the affairs of mankind’s spiritual home in the North Pole? Nothing good, that’s for sure.


_Source_​
If we make the assumption that ‘Avalon’ at the North Pole was the cradle of civilisation, then we can safely assume that the cities captured and colonised in the mountains around the pole were already established before Arthur arrived. This further presents the possibility that he was _re_capturing them and _re_colonising them. Logically it follows that someone or something had invaded the area and taken control. This heroic saga would be recorded and reflected out from the centre to the rest of the worldwide civilisation and this would explain why the same basic ‘myth’ is encountered in many different places.

_(Edit 21/02/2020 begins)_
If we add the poem *Preiddeu Annwfn* into the mix we can perhaps catch a glimpse of what occurred. The Guardianship of Annwn or Avalon had somehow fallen into untrustworthy hands who were no longer in control. This resulted in catastrophic changes whereby there was a prolonged period of darkness and cold which threatened the very fabric of life on Earth. King Arthur’s mission to the North Pole was to regain control of Annwn or Avalon, which he seems to have done successfully, but at great cost. Judging by Taliesin’s parting shots in the poem, it could well be that ‘monks’ or the new Christian religion had some involvement in the loss of control over Avalon. Also it would appear that the ‘big freeze’ was already afoot and unstoppable.

We will never know how long Arthur’s victory lasted as clearly some catastrophic event took place whereby areas of the Arctic Circle were covered in up to 4,000 feet of mud and then instantly flash-frozen. This seems to have affected areas as far south as Scotland and must have been a world changing event.

In another poem from The Book of Taliesin, called ‘Angar Kyfyndawt’ (‘The Hostile Confederacy’), Annwfyn or Avalon is unusually described as being below the _earth_:
“In Annwfyn the peacefulness,
In Annwfyn the wrath,
In Annwfyn _*below the earth*_,”
_(Edit 21/02/2020 ends)_

If the configuration of the North Pole and the tidal whirlpool is accurate, then so much mud deposited on top of it would have totally disrupted the world’s tides and caused major flooding. Presumably, (although not impossibly) the mudflood did not discriminate between land and sea, therefore the addition of so much bulk to the seas and the landmasses in the north must have affected sea levels and worldwide topography to a great extent. This ‘flood’ also survives as a universally shared memory or legend.


*'Fossil' forest debris washed up on the New Siberian Islands
Soldiers with guns?*​
If we can manage to salvage some credibility from the tale of Jacobo Cnoyen and his encounter in Norway, it seems that Arthur and his Polar Colony survived. The dates assigned to this meeting are obviously completely wrong, but it does coincide with the Arthurian legend whereby Arthur finally went to Avalon and he is still there, waiting for the time when he will be needed to come and save us once again. This concept is also reflected throughout many different cultures, particularly the Vedas – which come from Aryavarsha, the land around Mount Meru at the North Pole. Maybe all that’s required to bring him forth is enough belief that he will come.


*Kalki-Avatara

14. Antarika*​Antarctica is a massive subject, too big to include in this post – which is quite big enough. It also involves the contentious issue of flat vs. globe earth. (Personally, I don’t know what shape the Earth is, all I do know is it isn’t a spinning globe). However, in my opinion, the Arctic Mudflood Event and the Flash-Freeze took place at the same time that Antarctica froze over – it was all part of the same event.

My source for the following information has been lost over the years. It can’t be found in the _*written*_ Vedas, but it did appear to be reliable. However, please fell free to ignore it. The 'ring' or border of frozen water around the Earth plane was known as *Antarika* in Sanskrit, which predates the name 'Antarctica' by many many years. This word translates as "*what lies in between*" and this ring isolates us from everything else for the duration of the 'Kali Yuga' period.

Checkout this Wikiwaki link. The word ‘Antarika’ is used to refer to Antarctica in a Croatian sentence, but the word doesn’t translate…?

Antarika seems to be the Indonesian word for Antarctica. Really strange photo here.

*Miscellaneous sources:*

_‘Arthurian Magic’, John & Caitlín Matthews_
_‘The Arctic Home in the Vedas’, Lokamanya Bâl Gangâdhar Tilak_
_‘The Mythic Geography of the Northern Polar Regions: Inventio Fortunata and Buddhist Cosmology’, Chet Van Duzer_
_‘Yamato-takeru: An “Arthurian” Hero in Japanese Tradition’, C. Scott Littleton_
_'Arctic exploration with an account of Nicholas of Lynn read before the American Geographical Society, Chickering Hall, May 15th, 1880' by B.F. DeCosta._



> Note: This OP was recovered from the Sh.org archive.





> Note: Archived Sh.org replies to this OP: King Arthur in Hyperborea & The Arctic Mud Flood Cataclysm.


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## RotVan (Oct 27, 2020)

Very interesting.

The hidden, secret oral tradition Bock Saga, as revealed by Finnish great sage Ior Bock (1942 - 2010), states that in the time before the 1st Ragnarök,
Paa-Ra-d-is, Hel was situated with its city center at the precise North Pole, and pretty much treated as the center of the world, too hahaha. About "50 million years ago", the 1st Ragnarök tipped the globe over, so that the axis moved some 23 degrees off its original, perfectly orbital plane-perpendicular position. This, in turn, left Hel(sinki) in the spot where it is today.

The Saga does not say specifically how swift the tilting in itself was, but it states that "in 90 days" most lands were covered in ice. The Asir, highest
caste of Hel, called the new era "Allt-land-is" (Eng: "All-land-ice") in their own language, Rot (root language, today's Swedish). Hel survived, "because warmer water, carried by what is today known as the Gulf Stream, was flowing into the Baltic Sea and the Gulf of Finland" thus keeping
the south coast of Finland livable, throughout Allt-land-is - Hel becoming single preserver of human cultural continuity.

As the ice started pulling back, around "10 035 years ago", the melting glaciers wreaked havoc on Hel; this was called "the 2nd Ragnarök" and its people had to flee to Gotland for a while, from where Sven and his band of tribesmen peopled Sweden and his brother Dan Denmark, while the rest returned to Hel, as soon as it was doable, as the land dried back up.

The main themes of the Bock Saga is  - not to mention its very intricate sub-stories about ancient social structure, spirituality, mythology, just about all aspects of human life, mind bogglingly detailed really, in a nation that knew next to nothing of its ancient past except some base concepts from the Kalevala -  that:

a) all languages and cultures on the planet stem from Hel, since all organization within all other nations had succumbed to the icy rigors of Allt-land-is, rendering them hunter-gatherers again, and the Asir sons of Hel took it upon themselves to re-spawn humanity, as soon as the thawing lands were traversable, re-teaching all nations agriculture and language

and that

b) this fact is traceable through language itself: all ancient languages stem from either Rot (root language, proto-Swedish) of the Asir or Van (proto-Finnish) of the Vaner. "The secret and truth of the Saga is in the Rot and Van languages themselves, as still spoken among the Finnish people".

Mr Bock claimed that his family were secret keepers of Truth, hidden from the public until 1000 years had passed since the hiding of Hel's treasures in the year A.D. 987, beneath Lemminkäinen's Temple in Sibbo (30 kms East of Hel) in anticipation of a Vatican mercenary army invasion of July 24th, 1050, when "30 000 soldiers, paid by the Pope, invaded Hel and killed everyone they could find". He started recounting the story to a circle of personal friends in 1987, accordingly. (I might have the exact years wrong, but not far off.)

Absolutely fascinating...and a rabbit hole I'll never ever get back out of again.

As a native speaker of one of the oldest still living Rot language dialects as well as modern day Finnish on the Ostrobothnian coast, I must tell you that that the Bock Saga resonates with yours truly something out-of-this-world magnificently. It expanded my mind so fast it hurt. Feel free to call me crazy. How to explain to a non-speaker, I just don't know. Wish I could, because what impresses me with the Bock Saga is the beautiful, simple logic and surprisingly non-religious focus on what Mr Bock called the "sound systems" of Rot and Van languages, "the oldest tongues on Earth". Just take the term "Paradis" (Eng: "Paradise") for random instance. In my daily language, we say that something is "på rade" when something is A-OK, not a problem, in check. På-rad-is, ice in check, the Golden Age.

As times get darker, and most people around me seem totally unable to grasp that the 4th Ragnarök is approaching, I warmly recommend you all to google and YouTube-search all you can find about the Saga. Not saying it is the ultimate truth, but I am saying that the root language sound system seems to work. The whole thing turns into a consciousness-expanding fractal zoom. So many life-long questions answered.

Let me also say, that it surprises me not, that Mr Bock met with a violent end. The pattern is clear.

Here is my favorite still living Sage, his name is Jim Chesnar:


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjIgfQFTOKs_


There are 2 more parts to this video on YT, to begin with.

Mr Chesnar, as an American, impresses me very much. He gets it, although the pronounciation of the Rot and Van sounds are difficult to him.

Forces of evil drawing close. I needed the voice of the forefathers.
Sorry for not being academical and scientific...but that is part of the message. Static media with static info useless - it is in the sounds of my Mother Tongue.  As of now spoken/understood by maybe 70 000 - 100 000 people in Finland.

Very interesting post and thread, OP...goose bumps, the way everything seems to slowly come together.
Oh...and "Antrika" makes perfect sence to me. "Antrike", "Antrika" = "Ant's kingdom/land/domain". Ant is a Rot name, not a six-legged little hillmaker.  "Aastu-Ant" = "Ant next door", "Ant in the neighbour house".

Peace to 1 and All.

	Post automatically merged: Oct 27, 2020

:sense: - I kan tu spel.


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## Felix Noille (Oct 27, 2020)

This is fascinating stuff, thank you very much for sharing it. Throughout my own research for the above, I was very much aware that there was far more to the story than I was able to piece together I also realised that I wasn't going to get any closer to it with the material available to me. However, the information you have given above is obviously closely related and I'm looking forward to finding out more. I suppose that's the beauty of an international forum - we can coordinate information from all the different cultures. I will watch the videos tonight.

Thanks again


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## Silveryou (Oct 27, 2020)

Here another youtube channel for you
https://www.youtube.com/c/MortenAlexanderJoramo/featured


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## Felix Noille (Oct 27, 2020)

Here's a video of this thread made by Florian, who has also done another great job on the video for the @dreamtime Germania series.

​


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## RotVan (Oct 28, 2020)

Felix Noille said:


> This is fascinating stuff, thank you very much for sharing it. Throughout my own research for the above, I was very much aware that there was far more to the story than I was able to piece together I also realised that I wasn't going to get any closer to it with the material available to me. However, the information you have given above is obviously closely related and I'm looking forward to finding out more. I suppose that's the beauty of an international forum - we can coordinate information from all the different cultures. I will watch the videos tonight.
> 
> Thanks again



You are most welcome. 

I wish I could explain the beauty of it...bear with me, and I'll try.

To test Mr Bock's
(and he was not alone; there were/are other keepers-of-the-ancient-truth, folk lore legends and the occasional snippets like sayings of older generations, underneath the official surface of both Asir and Vaner-rooted Finnish daily life; heard them all my life, unable to spot the greater story behind them)
epic narrative, I started looking at academical history, ancient myths of other peoples, old symbolism, old maps, et cetera - and found confirmation just about everywhere.

I understand fully, if it gets too confusing to follow for speakers of other Mother Tongues, but to me, as a natural, organic Rot (root) speaker, things seem obvious. And I must say the sheer brilliance of Oden Allfather's wisdom gives me goose bumps. My very own daily language starts talking to me. Over here, on the Ostrobothnian coast, Finland, Rot-language still lives. The dialect of my fellow town folk is way "older" (= more isolated = closer to the ancient roots) than even Mr Bock's was, down in the Helsinki/Uusimaa/Uudenmaa region.

Like this:

Su-omi (Van) = our/my marsh (Suomi = Finland)
Su-mer (Van) = sea of marshes

Ap-kullu/kulla (Rot) = flock of apes/litter of monkeys
Enmebaragese (1st Sumer king) = "Ein-me-ba-Ra-ge-se" (Rot) = "One to whom/with only surrender [because he is/has/is of Ra]"
Ur (Rot) = original, first
Lag-ash (Rot) = put down/lay ash

et cetera

Hel-vet-ia = "Hel-know(ledge)-here" -  vet, veti (Rot) = knowledge, wit, wisdom
Hel-As = "Land of Asir Hel"
Frank-riike = "Place where people frank"
Par-is = Bar-is, "place where ground still frozen, but not covered"
Is-span-ja = "ice seen here"
It-all-is = "Not all ice"

et cetera

in America (A-mi-riika):

All-As-ka = all cas-tells, castle, "tower/heap from where Wäinämöinen/Asir tells", "kasa" in my language as of today
Dela Ware = "trade/share goods"
Norumbega (as still seen on J500 and J600 maps, northern shore of the Gulf of Mexico) = "north of bay" = "Norr om veka" in my language as of today
All-goon-qvinn = "all woman good"
Puu-ebb-lå = Wood when ebb/dry, (mix of Van and Rot words - mixing which still today very much happens every hour here in town)

Inca = (Lemm-)inka(-inen)
Maya = goes without saying, Earth Mother, Allmother, often depicted in Wäinämöinen's company
As-te-k = Asir tea kings
Ju-ka-taan = "wheel 'kas' from there"

...and on and on it goes.

Aph-riika:

Ethiopia = Ett-ihoop-igen (Rot) = One together again
Hadd-is = Hadd is (Rot) = had ice
Makkonen = family name of king line
Ras Tafari = Ra-sta-Far-i = King/light-stands/centers-in-Father's-bloodline/penis...you get it...apparently 225 generations

As-träl-ijeen = "Australia" = Asir serfs here ("Träl" did not originally mean serf or slave in Hel, merely 'the lowest caste' beneath Jarls and Karls)

Ma-O-re = land/mother/soil-Oden-again

Couple of things from thread above:

Olger = All-ger (Rot) = All-giver (al-gae first visible life on the planet)
Avalon = As-val-ön, place where choice of Asir breeding partner ritual took place
Caer Wydyr = Island of weather = Väder-skär (Rot), skär, skäre, skäri = (small) island, "sk" pronounced "sch"

And the Celts got the name, simply because the colour yellow was important to them: Keltainen (Van) = yellow. 

Narr-a-Tor = non-breeding middle brother who tells of Tor; a caste in itself, neither Jarl, Karl nor Träl = Narr, story-teller, sooth-sayer, "court jester".



Since the Asir-of-Hel re-spawning of human culture and nations took place a few thousands of years before the "oldest" known writings of mankind, sounds and words and their meanings have gotten mixed up and morphed into new shapes and new traditions already ancient themselves. But in the oldest geographical and historical names and words, the Rot language core is still very much there, it seems.

Can't help but remember, that Ior Bock was relentlessly and massively ridiculed and scorned by all mainstream media from 1987 until his violent death in his home in Helsinki in 2010 by brutal stabbing. And that bloody well fits the pattern of the På-ra-si-t-es and how they work.

Again, sorry for lack of scientific principle education...I hope this helps any- and everyone interested in delving further into the Saga anyway.

To me, as a native speaker of ancient but living, breathing Rot language, the world, history and present all open up.
No doubt another Ragnaröik is coming.

Schack (Rot) = people, group of people, folk
Schack-Ra = people's light

In Ki-na, the MiddleBrother from Hel who traveled that way, met a people who loved to debate and discuss, in their own Allt-land-is period language.
So the place got the name Ki-Na (= "key of knowledge". To debate, discuss, heatedly contest views in my language = "ti kina"). Those folks had never seen a white man before, of course, so they gaped and pointed fingers (to point and gape in my language ="ti peek" [Swedish long 'e' sound, not Eng]), so the place where the MiddleBrother built the Ki-Na Star City, he called "Pek-ing".

He taught the people of Ki-Na - since they were rather intelligent in and of themselves - a board game, simply called "Schack", to make understandable the dangers and mechanics of war: the ordinary Träl, peon, dies first. Schack [with Swe 'a', not Eng] = chess. (No idea, why the word "Schack" turned into "Chess" in the Anglo-saxon mouth.)

And it just so happens, that the - in my opinion - best Narr-a-Tor of the Bock Saga today is called Jim Chess-Narr.
The one person on the internets who has single-handedly prompted the most people to have a look at the Saga in the last couple of weeks is anthropologist Robert Sepehr. Ra-bärt Se-Per. "Light bears see Father". Odds..? :O

Mind blown and re-blown. Very unscientific magic. 

Static, stagnated info on static media is rather useless in direct, organic communication about spiritual things in the here-and-now, which is self-evident, when one thinks about it. It is all in the sounds that make up the (Rot and Van) language.

The Asir invented/remembered Sann Skrift, (= True Writing, "sanskrit" in Hin-du-stan; the Eng word 'sound' means just that - "sann" [Rot] = true, sound-and-sane), the runes, in/since På-rad-is times, but did not share it right away with post-Allt-land-is peoples, since they understood the dangers of such. Used in spiritual context on static media, runes risk birth of religion (Re-ligg-hjon = "Lie back down, peon/pariah"), politics, strife, war, death, slavery and destruction. This is why all ancient Viking rune stones are rather matter-of-fact "Kilroy was here" prose.
Snorri Sturlausson was already Catholic - his words corrupted.

OK, I'll stop there for now 
I understand perfectly well, if all this is hard to follow for non-speakers of Rot.

I am not really interested in debate as such about the Saga's authenticity or truth, given its very nature as evident in the Rot and Van sound system, but would be happy to answer any questions as best I can.

I am not a scholar, merely a poor Narr, all my adult life spent in underground rock n' roll. But The Great Awakening is here, as it must...and it is time for all people of the world to listen to Oden/Wäinämöinen and take heed. Not even the normies and gagged smartphone zombies around me can avoid feeling it in these totally absurd "COVID19" days. Parasites at work since thousands of years. Here come the inevitable consequences of not being able nor willing, as a society, to spot nor analyze the Parasites and their true nature.

Wish it weren't so - but it bloody well is.

Peace & good luck to 1 and All.

	Post automatically merged: Oct 28, 2020

Here is Mr Chesnar, explaining the sound system:


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKrzJoToWi8&t=883s_


	Post automatically merged: Oct 28, 2020

Crap...got 1 detail wrong: "Norumbega" not the northern coast of Gulf of Mexico, but further North. Statement still stands, regarding the etymology.

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b531711799/f1.item.r=Norumbega.zoom


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## Felix Noille (Oct 28, 2020)

Wow... I watched two or three videos last night. A couple were by Jim Chesnar and one by Michele Merle. Intriguing indeed. I will continue to watch more and I need time to digest the information.

I wonder if King Arthur, Ogier le Dan, etc., could be the legendary memory of the Asir-of-Hel re-spawning of human culture, or the return to Hel after the 2nd Ragnarok?



RotVan said:


> I am not really interested in debate as such about the Saga's authenticity or truth, given its very nature as evident in the Rot and Van sound system, but would be happy to answer any questions as best I can.



I wonder if the Admins would allow you to start a thread strictly upon that basis? In other words, no debunking, just the provision of information via questions and answers. Anyone who wants to disagree with an answer can simply ignore it (mind you, that will take some self-discipline.) Let's see if we can attract @dreamtime here...

There was one thing I'm unclear on. The centrifugal movement of what maybe called the ether, that captures the spirits/souls of the departed having been released through the leaves of the family tree, returns them to Valhalla. To my mind, centrifugal motion implies a flinging outwards from the centre. However, Valhalla is depicted as being in the centre of the centrifugal 'vortex.' I wonder if I have misunderstood something?

I was recently made aware of the theories of *Alexandre Eleazar* - which is most probably a pseudonym. Amongst many other strange things, he  claims the originally the entire world had one language. He claims it was called "*Elengoa*" and closely related to Euskera - the language of the Basque region of Spain. He deciphered it and it allowed him to translate the Iberian texts (previously untranslatable) and to reinterpret the Egyptian hieroglyphs. I haven't delved too deeply into his work as it seems to be based upon shaky foundations. The vast majority of information on him and his theories is in Spanish, as are all of his books, which isn't a problem for me, but the only decent summary of his theories available in English comes from here.

I would be interested to know what the word 'Elengoa' translates to in Rot/Van and I wonder if there could be any connections to the Bock Saga buried within his research?



RotVan said:


> I am not a scholar



Neither am I. If no other options are made available, then I would be more than happy for this thread to continue being a source for Bock Saga information.  ?


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## RotVan (Oct 28, 2020)

Felix Noille said:


> Wow... I watched two or three videos last night. A couple were by Jim Chesnar and one by Michele Merle. Intriguing indeed. I will continue to watch more and I need time to digest the information.
> 
> I wonder if King Arthur, Ogier le Dan, etc., could be the legendary memory of the Asir-of-Hel re-spawning of human culture, or the return to Hel after the 2nd Ragnarok?
> 
> ...



Makes me happy to read what you wrote. 
The sounds of the Rot (and Van) language(s) themselves will "activate your DNA", if you are ready for it.

Trying to explain the Saga to someone who can't yet handle it, is like explaining 3 dimensions to a stick figure drawing on a hard, flat surface. 

To clarify:

I am not personally afraid of counter argument and debate. Au contraire, I am known among my acquaintances as one who always enjoys to Ki-Na 

However, it is in the nature of the core of the Saga, that the most crucial part of it is in these sounds I make as I speak Rot here, now.
There is no way I could present valid counter-argument to debaters...except in some kind of video-chat surrounding with excellent audio. And I am not really prepared to take it that far.

Yes...you are right...but then again, I personally know next to nothing about magnetosphereology and flow physics.
Not one iota the wiser, as to the true form and shape of this realm nor the true directional workings of the so called ether.
As a matter of fact, I have spotted a - fairly small, though - number of informational self-contradictions in the Saga as Mr Chesnar and Mr Bock himself tell it, but the effectiveness of the oral/audio thinking machine in the here-and-now has left me with neck-hairs standing, so to speak, hahaha. 

*Har-Tor* (Rot)= "has Tor" = has got luck/ future/seer skills/heart friend = "Ar-thur".
No doubt in my mind, as to what you are saying. "King Arthur" and As-val-ön (Avalon) could well represent thousands of years old memory, somehow flipped backwards.

"El" has always meant what today is called "el-ectricity", energy flow. "Azar" is, well, Asar, Asir, Aesir - many spellings. I use the Asir one myself, because that is what my mother tongue Rot tells me. Might sound slightly different in the next village South.  The rune/letter "Z", however, always implies a more sudden charge, a flash, The Spear of Consciousness. As does the sound "z", i realize now, if aggressively spoken, Nordic style. "*Eleazar*" = "El-e-Asir" = Energy-flow-is-Asir".

In Van, the concept Z is the sound "säh". "Sähkö" is modern day Finnish for electricity, suffix indicating both Ka, Ko (Rot) and "questioning", magic.

"*Elengoa*" is an almost endearing, familiarity-increasing, cozy word. El-en-go-a = exactly the same in my everyday language, "elen goa" [with long, Swedish "e" in the beginning and ditto "o" in the penultimate syllable] = "Energy-flow-the-benevolent". Elengoa. And according to the Sage, "O" always refers to Oden Allfather, whenever one sees it. It is the round sound of the Sun and the Moon and the circular, cyclical flow of Everything, All-ting. Wouldn't surprise me, if the very word stem "ling", "lingua" developed from there. Could also be interpreted as having to do with the Nordic forest berry _lingon_, which activates your tongue-stretching muscles because of its natural kind of sour, bitter, harsh taste.

Egypt = E-gypt-ijeen (Rot) = "Here are Gypts"
Py-Ra-mid (Rot) = Fire-of-Ra-in-middle
Far-a-O(den) (Rot) = self explanatory

Finally, the female Pharaos wearing Bock-beards same as the male ones makes sense. Always wondered.

Iberia = "I-ber-i-a" = "in bear(skin) here" "i björn här" (modern Swe), "i-bjöön-jär" in my Rot language.
I have my own little theory, that most peoples in the Southern Ringlands had trouble pronounciating the sound "ö".

So sorry I could not answer your ether-related question; frustrates me right now. But I am a Narr, born that way, and matters of Ma-te-Ma-tik and such are better handled by a woman, a Qvin-na. 

I am just beginning to grasp things myself. But the circumstances and events of my own truly weird existence since the cradle are finally taking on true meaning and purpose. Never in my wildest dreams could i have dreamed it was all hiding in plain earshot within my own spoken native language. The Finnish people, Rot and Van-speakers alike, have been totally robbed of their history after A.D. 1248 and of course the "legend" of Lalli the Bishop Slayer in A.D. 1120. National Museum authority and the academic world not in the least interested in Lemminkäinen's Temple in Sibbo nor the Castle of Kajaani, although metal detector/ground radar results have been promising. I never understood their reluctance to dig deeper, but now, I pretty much do.

About your other question again: maybe Kevin Woods, who seems to have been Ior's, umh...most sober and analytical friend, could shed some light on it.


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## Felix Noille (Oct 29, 2020)

RotVan said:


> Not one iota the wiser, as to the true form and shape of this realm nor the true directional workings of the so called ether.



 I appreciate your honesty in that regard. It's quite unreasonable of me to expect all the answers at once.

With regard to Atlantis as defined in the Bock Saga, does the idea that domestic animals, such as cows, pigs and sheep were 'created' from goats and chickens from peacocks, intended to imply some kind of genetic manipulation or just selective breeding over millions of years? Also (question from Mrs.Felix) does that mean they have no souls?

Do you have any feel for the Tartaria issue? Clearly the Finnish people have had a huge influence in the very same area as is being claimed for Tartaria. Also I can 'feel' the Rot in the name, but it means nothing to me. ?



RotVan said:


> Avalon = As-val-ön, place where choice of Asir breeding partner ritual took place



This really fits, imo and relates to: 


Felix Noille said:


> Hieros Gamos


"a representation of the royal male candidate joining with the Magna Mater, the Great Mother in a ceremony of ‘anointing."

It is always referred to as an island - the Isle of Avalon - where the officials of such rituals resided and where they were performed.


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## RotVan (Oct 29, 2020)

In Hel, all things, everything, was done in accordance with natural harmony (Rot: har-mån-i = has-Moon-within).
I very much doubt that the people of Hel knew anything about the ground principles of Bayer/Monsanto's business model  hahahaha 

And, sadly, yes - GMO has no real soul, only fake soul.

Clones straight from the root still have soul, but it will be further diluted with each cloned generation.
Getting into "non-scientific" magic here, but it is a fact that people who - even if only on some obscure, rudimentary, subconscious level - are connected to Hel and the memory of På-rad-is, are naturally able to tell something is not right if they consume GMO or too far diluted clone.
Monsanto = Non atmos.

Mrs Felix (greetings and my respect): All living things have soul. (Rot: "sol", sun in Eng, the light of Oden Allfather). Quite simply because without the sun, there is no life. Everything about this realm comes from the light and warmth of the sun. Without it is nihil. It is the life force itself.
If I use Van, this gets clearer: "si-El-u" = sii-El-O = see the energy flow of Oden. Still today, soul = "sielu" in Finnish ("själ" in Swedish).

As a matter of fact, Asir developed Van for the Vaner not as a "simpler" language for the "lower" caste, but as an endlessly more intricate and pin-pointing one. Modern Finnish today is still a fantastic tongue - I can say things in Finnish, which can't really even be thought of in Swedish. Van was made for the closer study and communication of ever more complicated patterns as the world evolved, so as to deal with emergent properties of the - and all - system(s).

Tar-Tar (Rot) = [they] take and take. Original Tar-Tars were very intelligent folks, who together with the wisdom of the MiddleBrothers from Hel who traveled East, learned how to take and take energy out of thin air, without really having to repay it (before and up until death, of course). This leads to very intricate, high-frequency Star Cities/"Forts" and endlessly ornate, detailed patterns. Later on, as harmonic intelligence spread, the sound Tar-Tar came to mean the principle more than the actual people(s).

*" Hieros Gamos                  
"a representation of the royal male candidate joining with the Magna Mater, the Great Mother in a ceremony of ‘anointing."

It is always referred to as an island - the Isle of Avalon - where the officials of such rituals resided and where they were performed."*

Seems clear as daylight to me in the base concept. The sounds "Hi-e-ros Ga-mos", however, are not really within my personal earshot...but if anything, I sense that
(Rot) Hii-e-Ros = here are [sons/daughters] of Ros [Rose] Family
(Rot) Gaa-me-oss = [to] walk/go/travel with us



	Post automatically merged: Oct 29, 2020

The word *island *(Eng):

The first - quite simply, again - places to slowly become free from ice cover, were the highest spots.
Those that, in time, were the only things sticking up above the surface of the still ice-ridden sea, were naturally called (Rot) "is-land" = "ice-land" = land surrounded by, emerging from, icy waters.


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## Ponygirl (Oct 29, 2020)

RotVan said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> The hidden, secret oral tradition Bock Saga, as revealed by Finnish great sage Ior Bock (1942 - 2010), states that in the time before the 1st Ragnarök,
> Paa-Ra-d-is, Hel was situated with its city center at the precise North Pole, and pretty much treated as the center of the world, too hahaha. About "50 million years ago", the 1st Ragnarök tipped the globe over, so that the axis moved some 23 degrees off its original, perfectly orbital plane-perpendicular position. This, in turn, left Hel(sinki) in the spot where it is today.
> ...



*Subsequently, with the arrival of the Great Clans Race to them, this Land began referring to as Antlan, i.e. the Land of Antovs. Ancient Greeks called it as Atlantis. Red-skinned people were moved on Waitmaras(space ships)to the American continent after Antlan destruction 13 thousand years ago. —Slavic Aryan Vedas*


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## RotVan (Oct 29, 2020)

I am not sure which thread to post this information from the Saga on. Was thinking about  the thread "Secret Destruction of Germania....", but one quick look says it is infected by the same old carefully deviced and deeply emotional political and ego-centered poison of horrors past.
I am concerned with neither parts of that poison; only searching for the truth of this realm, nothing else.

So here goes:

Swa-vel-sticka (Rot) = sul-phur-stick (Eng)

The people of Hel used what they called a Swa-sticka, sulphur stick, in their rituals which had to do with government.
On top of a high pole in the ground, in the immediate proximity of the kas-tell (tower/heap from which Wäinämöinen looks down upon his people and gives them answers to their questions, "cas-tle" [Eng]), they placed a horisontal sun-wheel symbol, diameter determined by need, according to size of attending local population.

The sun wheel is simply a sun-cross, with each end bent 90 degrees to the right. The sun cross was hollow in each end, so that it could contain sulphur. Once the sulphur is lit, and the wheel given a slight initiating push, it will start spinning on its own accord on top of the pole, in counter-clockwise motion.

Inside the thusly produced circle of fire, Ilmarinen resided, listening to whatever grievances or questions posed by the (Rot) Jarls (Earls [Eng]),
Karls (family men, "free men") and Träls (low caste, "serfs"), who had to remain outside the fire-circle.

Ilmarinen then proceeded to pass these questions on to Wäinämöinen, seated in/upon the kas-tell.
Wäinämöinen, the wise one, shouted his answer back to Ilmarinen, who in turn informed the public outside the ring.

When the Swa-sticka had burned out, the consultation was over.

And that is the practical, in-use meaning of the Swa-sticka, which is the same symbol, carrying the same memory of how things were done in Hel and elsewhere, in På-rad-is times and in all MiddleBrothers re-spawned cultures world wide, after Allt-land-is.


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## Felix Noille (Nov 1, 2020)

RotVan said:


> The legendary king "Solomon":
> 
> The sound combination
> 
> ...



I wanted to reply to this here so as not to derail the Germania thread - this thread already has a link to the Bock Saga.

I watched a Robert Sepehr video on the Bock Saga:

In it, Jim Chesner, the Bock Saga Narrator, discussed the origin of the Torah:

He claims that there was “one king line” in Hindustan 3,800 years ago. (The term Hindustan here is obviously being used to described the whole of India rather than just the northern part of the mainland which is commonly referred to as Hindustan.) The king was Narcosur, His sons were the Maharajas, their sons were the Rajas (or Robbies), their sons were the Kars ( the middle-class), their sons were the gotti/gatti or ‘untouchables’ (low-class.) The classes would ‘breed-up.’ He claims the people spoke Hindi or Hindu, which is very surprising seeing that he also described Hindustan as extending all the way to Vietnam.

3,800 years ago a man and woman arrived from Finland. They were white, blonde and blue-eyed, named Krishna and Radha. They brought the brahma cow with them. Krishna killed Narcosur – no reason given. Krishna ‘flips out’ and introduces a new system whereby he creates a new Brahmin class, introduces Sanskrit and writes the Mahabharata. This book is about himself and Arajuna defeating evil in India, however, India today is full of evil and corruption therefore they failed. Krishna is not a good guy and was on a “one-on-one ego trip.” He introduced monogamous marriage which replaced the caste system. No one could “marry-up” or “breed-up” any more.

The Rajas were unhappy as they had previously been “the children makers.” They left Hindustan and went to Egypt. They asked the pharaoh for permission to live there and were allowed to stay, although they had to keep themselves segregated from the Egyptians. The Rajas didn’t like Egypt and so asked for help from Hel (Finland) as (I think) they wanted to go there, it being the ‘Holy Land.’ An unnamed woman went to them in Egypt and wandered around with them for 40 days in the dessert. “40 years to take and put a new book. She bring a new book, the first book on the planet the Torah.” This seems to ignore the previous book written by Krishna - The Mahabharata. Some of the Rajas didn’t accept the new book.  These people split-off and became the gypsies who later invented the guitar by modifying the sitar that they had brought with them from Hindustan.

Torah is given to mean Tor-a (of Tor [Eng]) itself, from the quote above. The word Tor is also given as ‘castle,’ or a ‘caste’ in various posts on this page. There is also Har-Tor (Rot) = "has Tor" = has got luck/ future/seer skills/heart friend = "Ar-thur". Six different meanings so far, there are more as we shall see later.

This narrative has so many holes in it that you could drive a bus through it – a double-decker bus even. The time period of 3,800 years ago places it at around the time of the alleged and highly controversial Aryan Invasion of India, which at least was by an entire race of people, not just a couple from Finland. The new system of marriage which apparently placed the caste system would eventually result in one lower class after all the upper ones just simply died out from the top down. The Vedas and the Puranas relate a tradition that is much, much older than 3,800 years.

Please note: The following section is *Not Suitable for Work.*


Spoiler: Warning! NSFW (click to view)



Further on in the Robert Sepehr video, Jim Chesner explains an ancient Bock tradition. Here is where we find additional meanings for the word Tor. Tor is a noun for the penis. However, the word ‘stand’ and the letter ‘i’ also mean penis. I wonder how this relates to the Torah? Does this make it “of the penis itself?” The word “clitoris” – which is a noun in most every other language - turns out to be a complete description in the Rot language of how to use it.

Far more disturbing are the details of this ancient tradition which involves the consumption of specific bodily fluids on a daily basis, which is claimed to provide health benefits and spiritual advantages. Children are introduced to this practise at the age of *seven years* – both boys and girls. For the boys a specific yoga position is used. For the girls they, are provided with a carrot or ‘care-root’’ - “you take care with the root” - which is later consumed. This seems to completely ignore the instructions apparently given in the word ‘clitoris.’ We also learn that males have an orgasm whereas females have a climax.

At the age of seven, neither boys or girls are mature enough to produce the necessary bodily fluids for there to be any of the alleged health benefits or spiritual advantages, which makes it an indoctrination who’s only purpose can be to make the children sexually active.


_*There are no circumstances under which this practice could ever be acceptable.*_

I am also beginning to see the correlation of the Rot/Van language to English words as being a case of whatever is convenient. The same assignments do not work in Spanish,  for example the English word ‘soul’ is given as (from above posts) Rot: "sol", sun in Eng, the light of Oden Allfather. In Van, "si-El-u" = sii-El-O = see the energy flow of Oden. Soul = "sielu" in Finnish ("själ" in Swedish).

In Spanish the word is ALMA. I have a feeling that there will be a convenient Rot/Van association though.

Sorry, but the Bock Saga is not for me.


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## _harris (Nov 1, 2020)

yeah not for me either as there's too many gaps and assumptions, and manipulating things to prove a point.

the frontman from Kingston Wall got all involved with Ior Bock and his crew, they did a 3rd album based on "alt-land-is" etc...
not so long after, i think he'd realiosed he was being played by Bock and he commited suicide 

	Post automatically merged: Nov 1, 2020



Felix Noille said:


> _*There are no circumstances under which this practice could ever be acceptable.*_


exactly... i feel like he was almost trying to manipulate people into doing what he wanted, to see his own perverted ideas played out... seen this a lot before in these "fringe" history/truthers.... when they're very cult-like and involve dodgy practices, they're usually doing it for self benefit rather than the supposed "freedom of knowledge"

how can only 1 person claim to know the entire truth of existence?

https://www.ancient-origins.net/his...everything-we-know-about-history-wrong-008599


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## Prolix (Nov 1, 2020)

It kind of lost me at an ape copulating with a goat.


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## Silveryou (Nov 2, 2020)

What do you think about the possibility, or impossibility I should say, that humans could live longer lives in an arctic environment due to the fact that "one day of the Gods equals a year of men"? Different metabolism or something like that?


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## Felix Noille (Nov 2, 2020)

Silveryou said:


> Different metabolism or something like that?



Well, I suppose freezing is a way of preserving things.  Perhaps living your life in a state of being partially frozen could have an effect on your lifespan. You'd have to be careful that bits of you don't keep falling off though. ?


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## codis (Nov 2, 2020)

Silveryou said:


> What do you think about the possibility, or impossibility I should say, that humans could live longer lives in an arctic environment due to the fact that "one day of the Gods equals a year of men"? Different metabolism or something like that?


AFAIK, the lifespan of the Eskimos and other dwellers of the arctic circle was a bit shorter, compared to people of mean latitudes.
Life was relatively harsh, with many opportunities to mess up and freeze or starve to death.
Not to mention this people could never really have existed, according the currently popular Vegan worldview ...


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## JWW427 (Nov 2, 2020)

I have no doubt there is land under the ice in the north.
Here is a video of two strips from Google Earth that shows clouds and land at the North Pole. A possible leak of truth?
Could the Younger Dryas serve as the cold snap in the Arthur legend?


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvQz1dqkjIc_


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## Silveryou (Nov 2, 2020)

codis said:


> AFAIK, the lifespan of the Eskimos and other dwellers of the arctic circle was a bit shorter, compared to people of mean latitudes.
> Life was relatively harsh, with many opportunities to mess up and freeze or starve to death.
> Not to mention this people could never really have existed, according the currently popular Vegan worldview ...


 Yes, I was referring to the possibility of an Arctic free of ice as suggested in some of the books quoted in the main article.
...
"Vegan Worldview"


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## codis (Nov 2, 2020)

Part of the arctic region is also the magnetic (nord) pole, which pulls in more solar wind (ionized particles) - which is the reason for the northern lights.
I think this increased radiation has not a positive health effects I think.
Related (or not) is the effect of light. 
The sun is always up around midsummer, and is not at all visible around winter solstice.
The latter period is associated with a high suicide rate in Scandinavia.


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## Silveryou (Nov 2, 2020)

I imagine that nowadays is like you say. But myths have preserved the opposite view. So I was talking of that possibility in relation of a bygone age. Who knows...


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## codis (Nov 2, 2020)

Silveryou said:


> I imagine that nowadays is like you say. But myths have preserved the opposite view. So I was talking of that possibility in relation of a bygone age. Who knows...


Some theories suggest that upon certain conditions (e.g. a solar micro nova), the solid earth crust decouples from the core, because the induced currents melt the solid "pillars" connecting both, which results in arbitrary, inertia and mass-equilibrum based rotation.
In short, the crust (surface) may move "randomly", with the former north pole now suddenly located at the equator.


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## Felix Noille (Nov 3, 2020)

JWW427 said:


> Could the Younger Dryas serve as the cold snap in the Arthur legend?



It's a possibility I suppose, Britannica states that it's onset took less than 100 years. However, the flash-freezing evidence shows that it was something that took less than 5 seconds. Also the core samples show that what was there before was a tropical environment. I think the Younger Dryas... or Dryas the Younger, he came along before the climate had fully reverted back from the supposed Ice Age. There's even doubt about the Ice Age ever taking place in certain scientific circles.

The video is interesting. Google Earth/Maps are full of anomalies. My personal favourite is satellite images of huge reservoirs in Spain showing the reflection of clouds. Obviously the 'satellites' were orbiting below cloud level that day.



Silveryou said:


> Yes, I was referring to the possibility of an Arctic free of ice as suggested in some of the books quoted in the main article.



Modern geography/science whatever, would  have us believe that there's no actual land at the North Pole, it's all ice - so they say. I think it does also get mostly free of ice in summer, again, so they say. This is the basis of the "Oh my God! The Polar Ice cap is melting! We're all going to die!" global climate warming change histrionics. There are a great many more recent accounts of warm seas nearer the pole and phantom lands. There are also books, but they will always be regarded as fiction. '_The 'Smoky God_' by Willis George Emerson for example and the truly strange '_Etidorhpa__, or, The end of earth : the strange history of a mysterious being and the account of a remarkable journey as communicated in manuscript to Llewellyn Drury who promised to print the same, but finally evaded the responsibility which was assumed._' All of these are consigned to the Hollow Earth Lunatics Department archives.

It's very odd that the poles are so shrouded in mystery, legend, rumour and speculation, probably more than most other places in the World and are also so highly secured against casual observation.


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## anselmojo (Nov 7, 2020)

Silveryou said:


> I imagine that nowadays is like you say. But myths have preserved the opposite view. So I was talking of that possibility in relation of a bygone age. Who knows...



Or like the Electric Universe Purple Dawn model, where earth was tidal locked at the north pole to Saturn-Mars-Venus-Mercury-Moon sky train that crashed into the Sun-Jupiter system...


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## Silveryou (Nov 7, 2020)

anselmojo said:


> Silveryou said:
> 
> 
> > I imagine that nowadays is like you say. But myths have preserved the opposite view. So I was talking of that possibility in relation of a bygone age. Who knows...
> ...


You read my mind, bro!
Although it's probably an instable model. We'll see


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## anselmojo (Nov 7, 2020)

Silveryou said:


> anselmojo said:
> 
> 
> > Silveryou said:
> ...


 Instable (=not) Unstable !


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## AthroposRex (Nov 22, 2020)

RotVan said:


> Felix Noille said:
> 
> 
> > This is fascinating stuff, thank you very much for sharing it. Throughout my own research for the above, I was very much aware that there was far more to the story than I was able to piece together I also realised that I wasn't going to get any closer to it with the material available to me. However, the information you have given above is obviously closely related and I'm looking forward to finding out more. I suppose that's the beauty of an international forum - we can coordinate information from all the different cultures. I will watch the videos tonight.
> ...




Wow. I don't even speak Rot and my mind is blown. 
I am going to see if I can find a Rot language site or tool so I can learn a little more. Thank you so much for sharing.


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## Felix Noille (Nov 22, 2020)

AthroposRex said:


> Wow. I don't even speak Rot and my mind is blown.
> I am going to see if I can find a Rot language site or tool so I can learn a little more. Thank you so much for sharing.



WARNING: Please read THIS first.


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## Whitewave (Nov 23, 2020)

Recently read the Bock saga which I found intriguing. I didn't take it all at face value but it did resonate with me in ways not expected.

Not being a linguist I have to ask for clarification. In the Saga it's mentioned that Altland (Atlantis?) translated to "old land". Kind of like how immigrants say they're from the "old country". Depending on the immigrant, "old country" could be Lithuania, Poland, Germany, etc. And obviously, the inhabitants of the Altland would have called their country something else. It would only be future generations who moved elsewhere that would call their homeland the "old land".

My question is, has the meaning of Altland changed in the Rot or Van language or was the English online translation mistaken?

Thanks for any help you can give in furthering my understanding. Off to watch the videos now.


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## Felix Noille (Nov 26, 2020)

Whitewave said:


> Off to watch the videos now



...don't say you haven't been warned.


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## Sasyexa (Feb 27, 2021)

Felix Noille said:


> So, in the poem Gweir has been imprisoned within Caer Sidi (Mound Fortress or Fortress of the fairy-folk - possibly the ‘Skraelinger’ mentioned in Mercator’s Polar Insert map), where he is bound in chains and ‘singing woefully’ before the treasure or spoils of Annvn, which also seems to be imprisoned along with him. This situation is due to the actions of Pwyll and Pryderi. In a tale from the First Branch of The Mabinogi, Pwyll exchanges place and shape with Arawn, who is the king of Annwn. Pryderi was Pwyll’s son, who through some foolishness plunged the land (Dyfed) into chaos turning it into a wasteland where all the people and livestock disappeared in mist, except for his closest relatives. So, by all accounts, Pryderi was a bit of a disaster and his father had also been up to no good when he obtained his mother Rhiannon’s hand in marriage by deception and murder. It’s no surprise then that these two had done something to cause the imprisonment of the sun god, Gweir and the treasures of Annwn.


Reminds me of one Greek story:
Atlas (a Titan, giant, if you will) and Persephone (wife of Hades, ruler of the Underworld) decided to kidnap Helios (Sun-God) to somehow escape the underworld. The kidnapping succeeded, the world was plunged into darkness, the Morpheus (God of dreams) was now in control, whole world put to sleep. Other Gods reacted swiftly though, Persephone was punished and Atlas continued his eternal servitude.
>Why is this related to the mentioned story?
Greek world may have been situated in the North before Homer in the Baltic


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## alltheleaves (Sep 12, 2021)

English also has these mystical connections. Language... measure. Cullen smith. Unpenned show. Twilight language. Green language. Language of the birds. Keyword starters.

Wyrd is magic spell in the welsh or gaelic if i recall correctly...


AthroposRex said:


> Wow. I don't even speak Rot and my mind is blown.
> I am going to see if I can find a Rot language site or tool so I can learn a little more. Thank you so much for sharing.


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## Will Scarlet (Sep 13, 2021)

alltheleaves said:


> Wyrd is magic spell in the welsh or gaelic if i recall correctly...



Wyrd = "Fate," "to come to pass, to become."


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## Silveryou (Oct 7, 2021)

Felix Noille said:


> The _Inventio Fortunata_ described a very different topography for the Arctic Circle to that which we have been told exists today and was the authoritative basis for mainstream maps, globes and atlas’ for more than 150 years when that particular configuration of land around the North Pole was censored from the public’s awareness by simply and literally erasing it from the maps.


I think that this North Pole was in reality a representation of Queen Elizabeth Islands in Canada. Here in the Urbano Monte map from 1587 we can see it better (LUNA).





I have highlighted Greenland in red, Baffin Island in green and the possible locations of the now gone Frisland and Hitland in light blue.

If this is true then Arthur colonised Baffin Island inhabited by the Inuit people. Was the magnetic rock there too?


Felix Noille said:


> Perlesvaus is said to be a continuation of Chrétien de Troyes' unfinished Perceval, the Story of the Grail.


Slightly off-topic here, but what do you think @Sasyexa of this similarity in language?
It seems to me that Perceval-Perlesvaus is extremely similar to Pereyaslavl: to achieve glory. What about the similarity both in word and concept of _Glory _and _Grail_? Wasn't the Grail something to be achieved by Perceval?


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## Sasyexa (Oct 7, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> Slightly off-topic here, but what do you think @Sasyexa of this similarity in language?
> It seems to me that Perceval-Perlesvaus is extremely similar to Pereyaslavl: to achieve glory. What about the similarity both in word and concept of _Glory _and _Grail_? Wasn't the Grail something to be achieved by Perceval?


Interesting. Pereslavl' is situated in the area of Yaroslavl', which, as far as I remember, considered by Fomenko to be the real Novgorod, i.e the supposed birthplace of Russian statehood. It's also in the North, not the North Pole, but had trade routes there.

Not sure what the word pereya in Pereyaslavl' means. Slava means glory, the morpheme пере (pere) means over, the word перья (per'ya) means feathers. Google says Pereya is a region in Greece, but also........a region in Palestine. Is that of your doing, @Silveryou?

Wiki also says that graal is an Old French word, so there is definitely something to it. Gaul, galley, graal, glory...


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## Silveryou (Oct 7, 2021)

Sasyexa said:


> Interesting. Pereslavl' is situated in the area of Yaroslavl', which, as far as I remember, considered by Fomenko to be the real Novgorod, i.e the supposed birthplace of Russian statehood. It's also in the North, not the North Pole, but had trade routes there.
> 
> Not sure what the word pereya in Pereyaslavl' means. Slava means glory, the morpheme пере (pere) means over, the word перья (per'ya) means feathers. Google says Pereya is a region in Greece, but also........a region in Palestine. Is that of your doing, @Silveryou?
> 
> Wiki also says that graal is an Old French word, so there is definitely something to it. Gaul, galley, graal, glory...


I searched 'Pereslavl meaning' on Google and that was the translation. I know for sure that there are many cities with that name or derived from it: Bratislava (Bratislava - Wikipedia) and Pereyaslavets (Pereyaslavets - Wikipedia) are two of those but there are probably more. I didn't mean to talk about the cities though, I just wanted to hint at the similarity of the words and the fitting meanings.

Or is it Paris-slavl? PRS-slavl?


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## Will Scarlet (Oct 8, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> It seems to me that Perceval-Perlesvaus is extremely similar to Pereyaslavl



You mean they all begin with PER, like perhaps, personality, Persia...

Words that start with per | Words starting with per



Silveryou said:


> Wasn't the Grail something to be achieved by Perceval?



"Perlesvaus, which presents itself as be a translation of a Latin source found in Avalon as narrated by Josephus, follows a high complex narrative chronicling the progress of *various Knights of the Round Table in their quest for the Holy Grail*." _Source_

"Perceval is dedicated to Chrétien's patron Philip I, Count of Flanders It was written in Old French during the 1180s or 1190s and likely left unfinished because of the death of either Philip in 1191, while crusading at Acre, or the author Chrétien de Troyes himself.

"Later authors added 54,000 more lines in what are known collectively as the Four Continuations, as well as other related texts.

"It is said by some scholars that during the time Chrétien was writing Perceval, there was *a political crisis taking place between the monarchy and the aristocracy*, which included his patron, Philip of *Flanders*, which may have influenced Chrétien’s work.

"There are possible parallels in Perceval with the Irish mythological race of the Tuatha Dé Danann. The race has three central talismans- a spear, a cauldron, and a sword- that correlate with the spear, grail, and sword present in Perceval.

"Chrétien's Perceval includes many similarities to the Irish saga The Boyhood Deeds of Finn. The main character, Finn, is raised in isolation and undergoes many adventures akin to those of Perceval, suggesting that the narrative may have been a source of inspiration for Chrétien."  _Source_

So, maybe Christian 'integrate and dominate' tactics and/or Norman Mafia propaganda then?


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## Silveryou (Oct 8, 2021)

Will Scarlet said:


> You mean they all begin with PER, like perhaps, personality, Persia...


I meant that Pereyeslavl is almost the anagram of Perlesvaus. In itself it means nothing, but the meaning 'to achieve glory' fits with the overall quest for glory/Graal by Perceval.


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## Sasyexa (Oct 8, 2021)

Silveryou said:


> I meant that Pereyeslavl is almost the anagram of Perlesvaus. In itself it means nothing, but the meaning 'to achieve glory' fits with the overall quest for glory/Graal by Perceval.


I looked a bit more into it and found where google might have taken the "to achieve glory" meaning. Here it says that Переяславль comes from "перенявший славу" which means "the one who inherited the glory" or "the one who took over the glory". A bit less dignified than achieving it


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