# "Tartaria" is a myth and didn't exist



## dreamtime (Jan 18, 2022)

_Tartary, a vast country in the northern parts of Asia... This is called Great Tarary (1771, Encyclopedia Britannica)_​
As we got many new users during the last months, some from Youtube, I think it's time to start a thread on this topic.

Many people in the alternative history community believe there was a unified civilization until recently, and that it was called "Tartaria". The idea of calling this civilization "Tartaria" is mostly being spread on Reddit and Youtube, and is being promoted by Youtubers who earn money with creating an almost religious following.

Read this to get an overview of previous research on Tartaria: SH Archive - Tartary - an Empire hidden in history. It was bigger than Russia once...

I think everyone who uses the term Tartaria to describe the Old World continues to cement a misleading view of alternative history.

While Tartary itself was real, it was not what many people now think it was. I do think there once was a unified civilization, with a unified architecture. But "Tartary" is a wrong name for it.

The myth came about when Russians started to realize that before their country was called Russia, it was named "Tartaria" on old maps. And it didn't only span Russia, but most of Asia.

Tartaria was split into different parts - Russian (Muscovite) Tartary, Chinese Tartary, etc.

Later some people found evidence that there were remains of Tartaria in America, mostly Western America, too. So the idea spread that Tartaria was literally everywhere.

And this is where things started to move into the wrong direction. In reality, Tartaria was simply a geographic area in Asia, with some of those Tartarians also influencing the American culture.

There is nothing more to it. It was part of the "Old World", but it wasn't exclusively the Old World.

So using the term Tartaria everytime one speaks about this old world cements a misleading view of a Slavic-centric world, where for some reason Russian culture dominated everything else.

To this date, not a single proof has been presented why this geographically limited region in Asia called "Tartary" was worldwide.

It is now simply a meme, and in my view it is a dangerous meme, because it limits our possibilities of what the Old World really was.




_Country Flag of Tartary, independent of China, indeed suggesting a political structure. Another map __here_.​
Yes, Tartary was somehow forgotten after the communist revolution. Yes, Tartary was probably not a geographical area but a kingdom of sorts, with a flag and political unity. Yes, it was probably powerful at one point. Yes, Tartarian influence extended probably to America. No, it was not a worldwide advanced civilization that somehow dominated all of the other kingdoms we see on old maps.




_A quick glance on the oldest maps of Tartary show that not the entire world was Tartary, surprinsigly._​
South of Tartary you see Arabia, Persia, India, China and Japan. To the West is Europe.

If anything, Tartary should be understood as a symbol for forgotten knowledge - that's why we have the Tartary Griffin in our logo.

I will use this thread to collect more information on this, with the goal to publish an extensive article on this topic, wich can be provided as a reference whenever the topic of Tartary comes up.

Many scientists from Western Europe considered the Great Tartary a huge empire stretching from the Urals to the Pacific Ocean. For example, the Italian diplomat and Jesuit Giovanni Botero in his work “Universal Relation” (Relationi universali), dated 1595, wrote that this country *used to be called Scythia.* *And it occupies half of Asia, in the west bordering on the Volga region, and in the south – with China and India*. At the same time, the lands of a huge empire on one side are washed by the waters of the Caspian Sea, and on the other by the Bering Sea.​​Another representative of the Jesuit order – the French Orientalist Jean-Baptiste Duhalde – in 1735 published a scientific work entitled “Geographical, historical, chronological, political and physical description of the Chinese Empire and Chinese Tartary.” In his opinion, in the west this huge country borders with Muscovy, in the south – with Mongolia and China, from the north this state is washed by the Arctic Sea, and the East Sea separates Tartarius from Japan.​
Where was the Great Tartary? | Earth Chronicles News


The pseudohistorical conspiracy theory about Great Tartaria first appeared in Russia, popularized by Nikolai Levashov, and in Anatoly Fomenko’s New chronology. In Russian pseudoscience, known for its nationalism, Tartaria is presented as the "real" name for Russia, which was maliciously "ignored" in the West (for example, the 2011 film "Great Tartary - Empire of the Rus", posted on YouTube). Since about 2016, conspiracy theories about the supposed lost empire of "Tartaria" have gained some steam on the English-speaking part of the Internet.​​The conspiracy is based mostly on a misunderstanding of architectural history. Adherents suppose that demolished buildings such as the Singer Building, or the temporary grounds of the 1915's World's Fair were actually the buildings of a vast empire based in Tartary that has been suppressed from history. Sumptuously styled Gilded Age buildings are often held out as really having been built by the supposed Tartaria. The conspiracy is very light on details, and only vaguely describes how such a supposedly advanced civilization which had reputedly achieved world peace could have fallen and been hidden. The idea that a "mud flood" wiped out much of the world and thus old buildings is common, supported only by the fact that some buildings have basements which had windows. World War I & II are cited as a way in which Tartaria was destroyed and hidden, reflecting the reality that the extensive bombing campaigns of World War II did destroy many historic buildings. The general evidence for the theory is that there are similar styles of building around the world, such as capital buildings with domes, or star forts. However, such designs exist globally due to colonialism by empires such as Britain, Spain, and Portugal, not some lost empire such as Tartaria. The theory reflects a cultural discontent with modernism, and a supposition that traditional styles are inherently good and modern styles are bad.​
Tartary - Wikipedia


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## Nerdgirl672 (Jan 18, 2022)

I was in elementary school in the early 70's. I can remember the globes. I never understood what Tartaria was. When I was little. I did question it. But, was never given any answers. my Guess now, they didn't know.


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## Blackdiamond (Jan 18, 2022)

The map you posted is a bit misleading. Peking in todays china was "Tartar", hence the tartar wall. And I would argue Muscowy was not Russia proper.


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## dreamtime (Jan 18, 2022)

Obviously there were some border fluctuations throughout history.

It seems Russia invaded Tartary and conquered it.


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## Will Scarlet (Jan 18, 2022)

air_dance said:


> What is Tartary and what does it mean?
> Tartary (english) = *Тартария* (slavic)
> Bulgarian: *Територия *(Teritoria) = Territory (english). "Grande Tartary" = Big Territory.
> Russian: *Tерритория* (Territoria) = Territory (english)
> ...


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## dreamtime (Jan 18, 2022)

Makes sense. It was Scythia before the Reset, and "Tartary" afterwards, which meant something like "What remains".

Still the name probably got assigned not only to a territory, but also to it's people later on, and every region had it's own emperors most likely. The cultures were very weakened, so they were quickly overrun by Russians, etc.


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## Lightseeker (Jan 18, 2022)

One strong argument against the idea of Tartary/Tartaria is the fact that the huge, beautiful buildings people like to post in threads related to Tartary are usually located in Europe, where Tartaria was not located. This kind of architecture is not present in the huge landmass that used to be Tartary.

Still doesn't explain the mystery of the world's fairs.


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## Blackdiamond (Jan 18, 2022)

Sure but, what means "Territory strait" and  "Territory Wall" in the context of just a territory of random lands. It could of course be Something like the EU. But that i think is an equally long shot as the debated Roman origin that would mean something like hell or maybe more precisly Hel.


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## TuranSilvanus (Jan 18, 2022)

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1hhKJpmXLU&list=PLvHMC_t2ji5NxOSHNaNQb63ElPK5-1U1m&index=62&t=71s_


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## dreamtime (Jan 18, 2022)

Blackdiamond said:


> Sure but, what means "Territory strait" and "Territory Wall" in the context of just a territory of random lands.



I don't think it was random lands. It was kingdoms after the fall of scythia. The maps we know were created by Westerners. They probaly invented the term Tartarians, and maybe it originally came from "Territory." 

It makes sense because we see the territory divided among different political factions (Chinese Tartary, etc.).

But this doesn't necessarily mean that Tartary was only a region. It probably was just like what we see in the rest of the world of that time: scattered kingdoms and emperors. Those than got wiped out after the Russians and Chinese, etc. moved in.


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## Akanah (Jan 18, 2022)

Good to see it addressed here. It has long bothered me that the old united world should have been somewhere in Russia. It would be better if we found our own term for the old united world.


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## feralimal (Jan 18, 2022)

I'm loving this direction - where we are open to considering the value of _all_ the provided narratives.

IMO, it is right that we consider that the alternative stories (tartaria, antiquitech) are also just stories.  We should look at the evidence, then determine the theory.  And it may be that we don't have enough evidence to formulate a theory either - its fine to say "I don't know".

We also need to remember that if the story is provided from outside oneself, incoherent with what one has verified for oneself, then it is possible (probable?) that this will not help you proceed to greater understanding.  We can also consider that these new, alternative stories are just as 'bad' for our mental health as the official narrative - that may be they too were placed there as 'Plan Bs'.  We confer advantage to others when we believe rather than verify (or just hold as a hypothesis without committing).

It seems it is an in-built predisposition that we auto-believe a good story.  I also think that it is a predisposition that is weaponised against us - it lets another re-frame our understanding of the world, rather that going to source - personal experience.  I tend to think that discarding unverified stories is not a bad thing, but a sign of maturity.


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## Jd755 (Jan 18, 2022)

SH Archive - Is Tartaria a Fairy tale?
A thread from days of yore just as relevant today. I miss sonomans insights.


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## trismegistus (Jan 18, 2022)

Like the first time you searched for “Building 7” - searching for Tartaria can lead people down some wonderful research rabbit holes, and also traps.

The memeification of Tartaria into the beast it is today - one of hyper advanced tech and a completely peaceful society with no war - is a pipe dream at best and a psyop at worst.

Tartaria has some interesting research associated with it - namely their connection to native America and their past. Research suggests that their “invasion” of the west coast of America coincides with the disappearance of the mound builder culture. It is also possible that while the mainstream calls Tartaria a loosely associated region of tribal communities - that they did indeed have major cities, kings, and more permanent culture than suggested by Wikipedia.

Is there any research to point to their technological advancement? No more so than our intuition that the old world in general possessed technology unknown or being rediscovered today. But this is not a unique feature to Tartaria, it is part of a larger tapestry of lost or hidden history.

Many structures in Russia have indications that they were affected by the mud flood (speaking generally, as we don’t know what the “mudflood” truly is), but that doesn’t really have anything to do with Tartaria, per se. 

AFAIK there were no worlds fairs in the regions formerly known as tartaria, so that’s out too.

One concept around Tartaria that hasn’t been discussed much since KorbenDallas’ original tartary thread is the theory that Napoleons march to Moscow is somehow connected to the dissolving of the tartarian empire. I think there may be some aspects of this worth looking into, as this also coincides with American conflicts pushing farther and farther west into what may have been Tartar territory (or at the very least, the descendants of tartary).

At this point I can say with some level of confidence that Tartaria as a meme has been pushed on alternative communities as a way to muddy the waters. These are classic disinfo tactics - raise a topic, provide interesting and verifiable information, then seed in disinfo in order to spin the wheels of potentially researchers.


kd-755 said:


> SH Archive - Is Tartaria a Fairy tale?
> A thread from days of yore just as relevant today. I miss sonomans insights.



That post was based off an excerpt from a series of articles I made a larger post on here

Dragons and Vampires in Scythia: Lessons from a Strange Book


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## Lightseeker (Jan 18, 2022)

The way I see it, the term "Tartaria" has become an umbrella term to refer to the Old World. It is not always utilized to refer to that huge area in Asia shown in old maps.


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## happenis (Jan 18, 2022)

Tartaria has become another psi-op

Enough truth to get those questioning interested, a portion of those becoming 'followers' and 'repeaters'

Enough half-truths to keep things confusing and difficult to piece things together.

Enough blatant lies and idiotic information to get those not questioning to point their fingers and make the whole subject and community appear 'crazy'. 

Same old algorithm, used again and again and again


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## matematik (Jan 19, 2022)

The main instigator of the Tartaria theory seems to have been Fomenko as far as I can tell. I always got the sense there is a Russian nationalist undercurrent to it, and Fomenko continues to be employed as a professor by Moscow State University, so clearly the Russian establishment approve of his theories.

Personally I think the promotion of the Tartaria theory suits current Russian geopolitical agendas, such as their Eurasianist agenda. The idea of reviving the Soviet Union (which is basically the aim of Eurasianism) has a bad rep with many people for obvious reasons, so I would think it suits them to paint a narrative that Russia being united with the Central Asian states and having close relations with China, etc, has a much more ancient historical precedent.

That said, I wouldn't completely write off Tartaria as a theory, there's enough evidence that has been unearthed that there's clearly something to it, but I think the way it's frequently portrayed by Russian researchers as an ancient Russian/Slavic empire is baseless and is really taking it out of context to benefit modern nationalist and geopolitical agendas.

If Tartaria did exist, the most probable scenario seems to me that it was the Russian Slavs who destroyed it in their Eastward expansion/empire building. It's also interesting that the regions of modern day China with the highest levels of authoritarianism and controls, Tibet and Xinjiang, correspond to the regions that used to be part of Tartaria. This makes me more inclined to think what has happened to those regions is part of a cover up.


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## Silveryou (Jan 19, 2022)

matematik said:


> The main instigator of the Tartaria theory seems to have been Fomenko as far as I can tell. I always got the sense there is a Russian nationalist undercurrent to it, and Fomenko continues to be employed as a professor by Moscow State University, so clearly the Russian establishment approve of his theories.
> 
> Personally I think the promotion of the Tartaria theory suits current Russian geopolitical agendas, such as their Eurasianist agenda. The idea of reviving the Soviet Union (which is basically the aim of Eurasianism) has a bad rep with many people for obvious reasons, so I would think it suits them to paint a narrative that Russia being united with the Central Asian states and having close relations with China, etc, has a much more ancient historical precedent.


This shows you've never read a single line out of Fomenko's work. Good job!
Fomenko's work is used by Russian nationalists who say Fomenko is a shill, more or less the same things you say. Disproving thousands of pages of work out of your Russophobia is a poor display of intellect. And then China?!?! Do you even know what Fomenko says about China? Of course not, why am I asking?


matematik said:


> That said, I wouldn't completely write off Tartaria as a theory, there's enough evidence that has been unearthed that there's clearly something to it, but I think the way it's frequently portrayed by Russian researchers as an ancient Russian/Slavic empire is baseless and is really taking it out of context to benefit modern nationalist and geopolitical agendas.


Again the same thing. Do you even know what we are talking about? Ridiculous.


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## trismegistus (Jan 19, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> This shows you've never read a single line out of Fomenko's work. Good job!
> Fomenko's work is used by Russian nationalists who say Fomenko is a shill, more or less the same things you say. Disproving thousands of pages of work out of your Russophobia is a poor display of intellect. And then China?!?! Do you even know what Fomenko says about China? Of course not, why am I asking?
> 
> Again the same thing. Do you even know what we are talking about? Ridiculous.



Perhaps compiling a summary of Fomenko's arguments for Tartary for others to see here would be valuable.

I found this archived thread, which seems to have a similar discussion as we are having now, with some sources that others can discover for themselves.

SH Archive - Pardon me, but I have a few humble questions about Tartaria

Further reading:
World Greatest Lie?: the Great Wall of China

The Great Tataria

SH Archive Replies - Tartaria - Paganism, the Destruction of Gnosticism, and the Real Missing Civilization: Cathay

SH Archive - Tamerlane a.k.a. Timur: what was his ethnicity?

SH Archive - 16th century Tartarian King Tartarrax ruled Quivira Regnum in North America


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## Silveryou (Jan 19, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> Perhaps compiling a summary of Fomenko's arguments for Tartary for others to see here would be valuable.


How is it even possible? You have recently added his books, me and others have provided links a thousand times, so if one is not interested there's no need for a recap (an impossible task as I said).

The problem is always jumping to conclusions. I personally don't believe that the West has no history, but there are a lot of interesting arguments brought about by Fomenko which cannot be brushed away by saying "it's a Russian psy-op". It's just stupid!


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## trismegistus (Jan 19, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> How is it even possible?



Perhaps an undertaking for the wiki (SH Wiki).  I posted some additional links above to older conversations that should help newer people find research to dig through.  Understandably, the sheer breadth of his work is difficult even for the more studious among us to tackle in a reasonable time - summarizing it would be a tall task.



Silveryou said:


> but there are a lot of interesting arguments brought about by Fomenko which cannot be brushed away by saying "it's a Russian psy-op". It's just stupid!



A good psyop contains _mostly_ good information - in order to sell the lie. It isn't stupid to question the intentions of any researcher or historian, and context sometimes can be an important factor in determining one's credibility. I don't know enough about Fomenko or his work in detail to weigh in on whether or not he is part of an intel op - but he does make very compelling arguments worth considering for anyone interested in this topic.


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## Silveryou (Jan 19, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> A good psyop contains _mostly_ good information - in order to sell the lie. It isn't stupid to question the intentions of any researcher or historian, and context sometimes can be an important factor in determining one's credibility.


There is a fine line between a lie and a mistake. It all comes down to subjective perception. Fomenko has done a lot of mistakes, that's for sure. I do a lot of mistakes, equally sure and even more. You guys do mistakes. Do you like being called shills out of the mistakes you do? I suppose not! Funny thing is that Fomenko is not trying to make us swallow Putin and Russia against our will. He constantly talks about his work in the spirit of falsifiability.


trismegistus said:


> Understandably, the sheer breadth of his work is difficult even for the more studious among us to tackle in a reasonable time - summarizing it would be a tall task.


Yes ure. But I don't want to be a fanatic here. I'll try to contribute by selecting the most compelling arguments and commenting on those with a dedicated thread.


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## evgenik (Jan 19, 2022)

maybe they were states of people with elongated skulls?


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## dreamtime (Jan 19, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> How is it even possible?



It would be possible to summarize it. Probably the biggest barrier to make his views available to more people.

One can easily take every chapter of his books and summarize each into a short paragraph.

Actually now that we are thinking about an SH Wiki, summarizing his work in that way may be one of the most important tasks of such a wiki.


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## Jd755 (Jan 19, 2022)

The discussion here is well worth a perusal. These are the older replies to the thread not the contenporary one linked to above.
SH Archive Replies - Tartary - an Empire hidden in history. It was bigger than Russia once...


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## matematik (Jan 19, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> This shows you've never read a single line out of Fomenko's work. Good job!
> Fomenko's work is used by Russian nationalists who say Fomenko is a shill, more or less the same things you say. Disproving thousands of pages of work out of your Russophobia is a poor display of intellect. And then China?!?! Do you even know what Fomenko says about China? Of course not, why am I asking?



As far as I'm aware the idea of Tartaria was brought to non-Russian audiences through the work of the New Earth channel on Youtube, which seems to be largely based on Fomenko's ideas, and frequently directly credits him.

From what I recall of Fomenko's work he mentions Tartaria quite a lot. I think it was other researchers who really turned Tartaria into a stand alone theory in its own right, but my understanding is the foundation is Fomenko's work. 

I know Fomenko is dismissive of Chinese history, but I don't see how that changes the Eurasionist aspect because he believes that a large part of modern day China was part of Tartaria/Russia

I don't see how saying Tartaria probably wasn't a Russian/Slavic civilisation is Russophobic. That's like saying the claim that Ireland and Scotland weren't Anglo-Saxon civilisations is Anglophobic.


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## Silveryou (Jan 19, 2022)

matematik said:


> As far as I'm aware the idea of Tartaria was brought to non-Russian audiences through the work of the New Earth channel on Youtube, which seems to be largely based on Fomenko's ideas, and frequently directly credits him.


Then talk about New Earth channel. By your logic Fomenko was inspired by Morozov who was inspired by other previous recentists ultimately ending with the very English Newton. Duh.


matematik said:


> From what I recall of Fomenko's work he mentions Tartaria quite a lot. I think it was other researchers who really turned Tartaria into a stand alone theory in its own right, but my understanding is the foundation is Fomenko's work.


And what does it mean?


matematik said:


> I know Fomenko is dismissive of Chinese history, but I don't see how that changes the Eurasionist aspect because he believes that a large part of modern day China was part of Tartaria/Russia


Yes he is a Russian and talks about Russia, but wait he shouldn't talk about Russia because it's too nationalist, but wait he also talks about England he shouldn't talk about England because it's too Eurasianist!!!


matematik said:


> I don't see how saying Tartaria probably wasn't a Russian/Slavic civilisation is Russophobic. That's like saying the claim that Ireland and Scotland weren't Anglo-Saxon civilisations is Anglophobic.


Problem is that politics have nothing to do with historical research, so please stop pushing this West vs East bias where it doesn't belong.


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## Blackdiamond (Jan 19, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> Then talk about New Earth channel. By your logic Fomenko was inspired by Morozov who was inspired by other previous recentists ultimately ending with the very English Newton. Duh.
> 
> And what does it mean?
> 
> ...



It has all to do with it. Especially empires such as Englands queen is german. Russians claim on asian lands, fomenka helped, sure. American history is still used to push the people under the state umbrella. What i personally believe, is that , since fomenkos work was done in the soviet era if im not mistaken, pushed the Russians = Tartars. To me that is the piece of false state propaganda. China as well. Todays chinese empire is probably bigger then it has ever been. Can we even be sure it is half as old as the officials say? Some people here on Sh as well as fomenko questions that. 
It can be argued that all modern day empires use history for politic reasons. Be they fals or true. Isnt that why we are here?


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## Silveryou (Jan 19, 2022)

Blackdiamond said:


> It has all to do with it.


I think you misunderstood what I said


Blackdiamond said:


> What i personally believe, is that , since fomenkos work was done in the soviet era if im not mistaken, pushed the Russians = Tartars. To me that is the piece of false state propaganda.


What does it mean?

Guys! Can you stop bringing politics into the debate without even knowing what you are talking about? Thank you.


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## Blackdiamond (Jan 19, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> I think you misunderstood what I said
> 
> What does it mean?
> 
> Guys! Can you stop bringing politics into the debate without even knowing what you are talking about? Thank you.



I mean, if you were working for goverment, he was a teacher no? You push state agenda. Or you were not working.


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## Silveryou (Jan 19, 2022)

Blackdiamond said:


> I mean, if you were working for goverment, he was a teacher no? You push state agenda. Or you were not working.


Just a brief reminder that you talked about i standing for 1 in another thread. Fomenko is the one behind it, so if he is a 'secret agent' then you and me are 'secret fools'. Enjoy it.


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## grav (Jan 20, 2022)

But, but, sheneeda name, which, as I learned from a girl named Shenita, is how she was so dubbed as a newborn when her aunts asked her mom, "What her name be?"  

What else can we call the lost civilization?
Anunnakia would be my guess, because I don`t think that Homo ignoranus ever built any grand architecture anywhere, any time, until perhaps the 1900s. Even then, our best pales in quality and beauty compared to the buildings and star forts of the glorious past.

How about Atlantis? which word may have referred to a worldwide empire, its main city having been destroyed in a cataclysm. Mu? Lemuria? Babylonia?
Not Hyperborea, at least.

That which Shakespeare would call a rose is as good as it gets at this point. I appreciate the thread's thesis about lack of proof of ownership, but until a proper name is brought forth, I am stuck with Tartaria.
Yes, Velikovsky's science and cosmology are badly flawed -- with an error factor around 99%  -- but his exegesis of world history and the origins of man are better than the alternatives of Scaliger and Darwin and the Jesuit freemasons who run our clown show world.


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## Persister (Jan 20, 2022)

grav said:


> But, but, sheneeda name, which, as I learned from a girl named Shenita, is how she was so dubbed as a newborn when her aunts asked her mom, "What her name be?"
> 
> What else can we call the lost civilization?
> Anunnakia would be my guess, because I don`t think that Homo ignoranus ever built any grand architecture anywhere, any time, until perhaps the 1900s. Even then, our best pales in quality and beauty compared to the buildings and star forts of the glorious past.
> ...


Much of Tartarian history has been deleted from history. But we don't just have old maps that point out Tartarians coming from Scythia. There is still quite a bit of written history that shows that Tartary existed. It WAS a powerful nation. It DID exist. And it came to control much of Asia. But I believe, from my extensive research, that The Scythians/The Israelites can source back to The Phoenicians, who were primarily of David and Salomon's Judah, combined with the peoples of Tyre and Sidon. Of course, those peoples worshiped the sun, but they DID only believe in one god. And they were Adamic/White (H120 Adam & G444 Anthropos - red, to show blood in the face, able to blush) as are The Israelites. They had common values. And they worked well together. They controlled The Mediterranean Sea, created Carthage, traveled the oceans of the earth, and established mines in Ireland. I have come to believe that the magnificent structures, across the face of the earth, were built by The Phoenicians, who also established advanced society in northern India. They, over time, disappeared. And then, with a weakened Judah, The Judahites were taken into captivity. Those Israelites ultimately escaped their captivity and created the nation of Scythia, to the north of The Black Sea.


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## Bitbybit (Jan 20, 2022)

Yes, i agree with TS. When i have seen the word "Tartary" etc in maps etc then each time when i have made a test translation of "Tartary" in my head as "Wasteland" or "Sahara" or "Siberia" and very little context contradicted this. Most of what i have read has been supporting this scenario.

Some texts is talking about the people living in tartary as nomad people, with no cities etc and some have even taken this as evidence for superior developed lifestyle in harmony with nature etc. I think this is wrong and mostly just comparable to the lifestyle we see remnants of in Roma/gypsies/tattare.
The tartar territory has left no massive ruins in russia, no costline, no harbours. People have always built cities by the sea.
Sorry but I believe the tartar territory is found always different on the older maps, not because any tartar empire was changing its power influence, but more likely because no empire was claiming the land.


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## fabiorem (Jan 20, 2022)

Lightseeker said:


> One strong argument against the idea of Tartary/Tartaria is the fact that the huge, beautiful buildings people like to post in threads related to Tartary are usually located in Europe, where Tartaria was not located. This kind of architecture is not present in the huge landmass that used to be Tartary.
> 
> Still doesn't explain the mystery of the world's fairs.




I remember posting about this once. The victorian buildings are nowhere to be found in the land where Tartary was supposed to be. 
A uncanny theory would be that these buildings simply vanished, due to some tesla-like teleport technology, and were sent to the inner Earth. But it is just speculation and there is not a conclusive proof such thing could have happened. 
There were also the pyramids indicated in a map, and buried star forts, but there are no excavations happening in those areas, so we can't know for sure what could have happened. We can only speculate, and here lies the problem, because the more you speculate, the more you run in circles. Today I think it would be better to pay attention to current events, because the amount of lies we are seeing now certainly happened before, not just the spanish flu, but events in the 19th century as well. Fact is, we will never know true history, because it was falsified several times.


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## trismegistus (Jan 20, 2022)

fabiorem said:


> The victorian buildings are nowhere to be found in the land where Tartary was supposed to be.


Victorian, perhaps not. But there are no lack of curious buildings in former Tartary

Beautiful & Mysterious Structures In the Russian Kursk Oblast - Abandoned Spaces

Tomsk, the former Athens of Siberia - Lambert Coleman

Wooden Beauty – Churches of the Russian North

Hot springs in cold Tyumen. From the Urals to Siberia

Abandoned church in the middle of nowhere · Russia Travel Blog


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## Bitbybit (Jan 20, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> Victorian, perhaps not. But there are no lack of curious buildings in former Tartary
> 
> Beautiful & Mysterious Structures In the Russian Kursk Oblast - Abandoned Spaces
> 
> ...



Regarding the abanoned church, when i checked it on google maps. There are some villages nearby.
Even small villages often got a church as well.. in other countires as well


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## trismegistus (Jan 20, 2022)

Bitbybit said:


> Regarding the abanoned church, when i checked it on google maps. There are some villages nearby.
> Even small villages often got a church as well i think.



How do we know which came first? Did the village build the church or did they build the village around the found structure?


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## Persister (Jan 20, 2022)

fabiorem said:


> I remember posting about this once. The victorian buildings are nowhere to be found in the land where Tartary was supposed to be.
> A uncanny theory would be that these buildings simply vanished, due to some tesla-like teleport technology, and were sent to the inner Earth. But it is just speculation and there is not a conclusive proof such thing could have happened.
> There were also the pyramids indicated in a map, and buried star forts, but there are no excavations happening in those areas, so we can't know for sure what could have happened. We can only speculate, and here lies the problem, because the more you speculate, the more you run in circles. Today I think it would be better to pay attention to current events, because the amount of lies we are seeing now certainly happened before, not just the spanish flu, but events in the 19th century as well. Fact is, we will never know true history, because it was falsified several times.


These are very thoughtful comments. I agree that it's difficult to grasp that there would have been an advanced Tartary when there is nothing there now. And it wasn't that long ago. Old maps show many large cities in northern Asia. But there is nothing there now. What happened?! We would certainly love to know!


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## Blackdiamond (Jan 20, 2022)

Bitbybit said:


> Yes, i agree with TS. When i have seen the word "Tartary" etc in maps etc then each time when i have made a test translation "Tartary" in my head as "Wasteland" or "Sahara" and very little context contradicted this. Most of what i have read has been supporting this scenario.
> 
> Some texts is talking about the tartars as nomad people, with no cities etc and some have even taken this as evidence for superior lifestyle in harmony with nature etc. I think this is wrong and mostly just comparable to the lifestyle we see remnants of in Roma/gypsies/tattare.
> The tartar territory has left no massive ruins in russia, no costline, no harbours. People have always built cities by the sea.
> Sorry but I believe the tartar territory is found always different on the older maps, not because any tartar empire was changing its power influence, but more likely because no empire was claiming the land.



So the tartar strait, tartar wall of Peking, todays ta'tar people etc. was just a joke or something? There are cities all over the maps. And different peoples. Novosibirsk means New siberia. Someone clearly lived there since there are mirror storus of siberia/tartary as to them of northern americas. They also had big cities.


Persister said:


> These are very thoughtful comments. I agree that it's difficult to grasp that there would have been an advanced Tartary when there is nothing there now. And it wasn't that long ago. Old maps show many large cities in northern Asia. But there is nothing there now. What happened?! We would certainly love to know!




Have you seen the various empty grids, squares and canals? Have a look at the star city of Vladivostok. Lots of argument in this forums that some structures is still around today.

Edit with one example of a sibir town built in 1979 according to wiki.


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## TimHonks (Jan 21, 2022)

matematik said:


> The main instigator of the Tartaria theory seems to have been Fomenko as far as I can tell. I always got the sense there is a Russian nationalist undercurrent to it, and Fomenko continues to be employed as a professor by Moscow State University, so clearly the Russian establishment approve of his theories.
> 
> Personally I think the promotion of the Tartaria theory suits current Russian geopolitical agendas, such as their Eurasianist agenda. The idea of reviving the Soviet Union (which is basically the aim of Eurasianism) has a bad rep with many people for obvious reasons, so I would think it suits them to paint a narrative that Russia being united with the Central Asian states and having close relations with China, etc, has a much more ancient historical precedent.
> 
> ...


How in the world is there a Russian nationalist undercurrent to it when the Tartarians wouldn't even be Russian?  You even stated at the end that the most probable scenario to you would be that it was destroyed by Russian Slavs during the Eastward expansion.  If anything this would cause nationalism in the areas of what was Tartary (regardless of whether or not the people there can still be called Tartarians).  I can see the Russian academic community keeping his employment when you consider that the Soviet Union made it a business of rewriting the history.  I'm not sure how his continued employment counts as approval by the Russian establishment though.


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## TiborHun (Jan 21, 2022)

Perhaps Tartary was the land of the Tatars and Gingis Kan? (In the west Tartar and Tatar are used interchangeably). This would make the most sense. Further, consider the fact that today’s history books don’t paint the right picture about Tatars, the Huns, Scythians, Parthians, the descendants of Sumerians. At one point these people shared the same belief system, language and alphabet. There’s not just a theory , but also evidence, that they were not primitive nomadic people. In fact they were very sophisticated, possessed advanced technologies , ran a fair and efficient social system and were written about by Alexander the Great , the Romans and others with high admiration. I would go down the Sumerian-Scythian -Hun rabbit hole to find answers to the “tartarian” question. Their story stretches the entire Asian continent. And much of Europe .


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## Lightseeker (Jan 21, 2022)

fabiorem said:


> I remember posting about this once. The victorian buildings are nowhere to be found in the land where Tartary was supposed to be.
> A uncanny theory would be that these buildings simply vanished, due to some tesla-like teleport technology, and were sent to the inner Earth. But it is just speculation and there is not a conclusive proof such thing could have happened.
> There were also the pyramids indicated in a map, and buried star forts, but there are no excavations happening in those areas, so we can't know for sure what could have happened. We can only speculate, and here lies the problem, because the more you speculate, the more you run in circles. Today I think it would be better to pay attention to current events, because the amount of lies we are seeing now certainly happened before, not just the spanish flu, but events in the 19th century as well. Fact is, we will never know true history, because it was falsified several times.



Another argument is that judging by pictures we see, Tartarians lived in tents. Even in North America, there are reports of them having lived in tents.

So who the hell built all those huge structures?


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## Persister (Jan 21, 2022)

TimHonks said:


> How in the world is there a Russian nationalist undercurrent to it when the Tartarians wouldn't even be Russian?  You even stated at the end that the most probable scenario to you would be that it was destroyed by Russian Slavs during the Eastward expansion.  If anything this would cause nationalism in the areas of what was Tartary (regardless of whether or not the people there can still be called Tartarians).  I can see the Russian academic community keeping his employment when you consider that the Soviet Union made it a business of rewriting the history.  I'm not sure how his continued employment counts as approval by the Russian establishment though.


I like your thinking. One needs to understand that Russia always hated their neighbor, Scythia/Tartary. So, Fomenko isn't hurting Russia when he speaks of Tartary ... as long as he doesn't present what REALLY happened when Russia expanded toward the east. It just shows the power of Russia. I believe that other nations worked with Russia to finally eliminate Grand Tartary. And then they re-wrote history accordingly.


Lightseeker said:


> Another argument is that judging by pictures we see, Tartarians lived in tents. Even in North America, there are reports of them having lived in tents.
> 
> So who the hell built all those huge structures?


The Scythians/Israelites DID live in tents. They were nomadic. But as their nation grew, and they planted roots, their tents were left in history. The Israelites, who came from the seedline of Seth, were prophesied to be the tillers of the soil, or Farmers. They were to prosper as Farmers; and that takes planting yourself in one spot. Whereas Cain's offspring, The Cainites/Kenites/Edomites (ultimately Judeans/Jews) became the wandering peoples who became the Bankers of the earth.


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## Sasyexa (Jan 21, 2022)

???


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## Will Scarlet (Jan 21, 2022)

Sasyexa said:


> ???





dreamtime said:


> If anything, Tartary should be understood as a symbol for forgotten knowledge - *that's why we have the Tartary Griffin in our logo*.



From the OP...


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## Lightseeker (Jan 21, 2022)

How can Tartary be a myth if it was a country with its own flag, coat of arms and language?

It even had a capitol city. Sellingham.


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## dreamtime (Jan 21, 2022)

Lightseeker said:


> How can Tartary be a myth if it was a country with its own flag, coat of arms and language?



Because the headline was a bit hyperbole, as explained in the post. The word "myth" is correct though, as the premise of my text relates to the idea people in the alternative history community have about Tartary, not Tartary itself.


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## Persister (Jan 21, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> From the OP...


...and it's a great logo!


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## Collapseinrealtime (Jan 21, 2022)

feralimal said:


> We can also consider that these new, alternative stories are just as 'bad' for our mental health as the official narrative - that may be they too were placed there as 'Plan Bs'. We confer advantage to others when we believe rather than verify (or just hold as a hypothesis without committing).


Yes, verification is everything. Hopefully, we have a mature enough community here, that no realm of research or speculation is "dangerous," since it is an easy given that we do not have all the answers and are often reaching at best with what little actual facts we have at our disposal to work with. Anyone entering this research community for the first time can quickly conclude that this is a place to exchange ideas, theories, speculations, and hypothesis, where conclusions must be left to the individual, as this is an open source community, the very opposite of the traditional approach of academia, where hired court "historians" fabricate false history to fit in with larger nefarious corporate agendas and must be repeated at all costs, shutting down and censoring all efforts at open investigation.


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## Will Scarlet (Jan 21, 2022)

I’d like to approach this topic by considering its historical precedents. It may well be a ‘meme’ in today’s jargon, but historically a meme is just a concept. ‘Hoover’ became the meme or name for the concept of the vacuum cleaner. In Spain, ‘Rimmel’ is the meme for the concept of mascara. Similarly ‘Tartaria’ has become the name for a concept concerning the existence of a previous worldwide civilisation. However, like all concepts, it has evolved and is now inextricably entwined with a worldwide cataclysmic ‘mudflood’ that caused its downfall; a Reset that replaced the civilisation’s social and administrative systems; the loss of a particular style of advanced architecture labelled ‘Tartarian’; the loss of ancient free-energy technology labelled ‘Antiquitech’ and finally ‘Orphan Trains’ that everyone who survived the cataclysm is descended from.

The main point of the OP seems to be an objection to the word ‘Tartaria’ as a name for the concept outlined above. However, the title of the OP, ‘“Tartaria” is a myth and didn’t exist’ is very misleading. After just five paragraphs this is refuted in the OP itself:



dreamtime said:


> While Tartary itself was real, it was not what many people now think it was. I do think there once was a unified civilization, with a unified architecture. But "Tartary" is a wrong name for it.



It’s interesting that the word ‘Tartaria’ is now being replaced by ‘Tartary’, but they refer to the exact same thing.

Further confusion is apparent in the paragraph;



dreamtime said:


> If anything, Tartary should be understood as a symbol for forgotten knowledge - that's why we have the Tartary Griffin in our logo.



This implies that the Tartary / Tartarian Griffin is a perfectly acceptable symbol to represent the concept of “forgotten knowledge” and yet the actual word ‘Tartaria’ is not acceptable for the concept of an ancient lost worldwide civilisation. This apparent contradiction combined with the statement that Tartary / Tartaria was real, makes for a quite confusing post which many may see (and in fact are seeing) as being merely an issue of semantics or even nitpicking. The underlying concept of ‘Tartaria’ and all of its attendant theories are not being challenged, which makes the OP title more than hyperbole and seems like a sensational gutter-press type of attention-grabbing headline that bears little or no relation to the content.

With regard to the historical precedents, the first of these is the Israelites meme or concept. The monumental crimes perpetrated by the early Christian scribes when they went to great lengths to make all the ancient oral traditions fit in with the biblical narrative, are the people we have to thank for the Israelites concept. This happened everywhere throughout what is now the Christian world, but one particular instance that has survived and is well documented occurred in Ireland.

The 12th century "Leabhar Gabhála" manuscript, known as the "The Book of the Taking of Ireland', was written in Irish Gaelic and claimed to give the early history of Ireland. It supposedly documents all of the successive invasions that took place until the arrival of the ‘sons of a thousand from the kingdom of Breogán’, also known as ‘The Sons of Mil’ or actually - the Spanish.

“The writers sought to create an epic written history comparable to that of the Israelites in the Old Testament of the Bible. This history was also intended to fit the Irish into Christian world-chronology and connect them to Adam. In doing so, it links them to events from the Old Testament and likens them to the Israelites. Ancestors of the Irish were described as enslaved in a foreign land, fleeing into exile, and wandering in the wilderness, or sighting the "Promised Land" from afar. The account also drew from the pagan myths of Gaelic Ireland but reinterpreted them in the light of Christian theology and historiography.” _Source_

The bit about sighting the Promised Land from afar was from the Spanish story, whereby some suitably biblical-like character claimed he could see Ireland all the way from La Coruña in Galicia.

Thomas F. O'Rahilly, a noted Irish scholar, claimed that the purpose of The Book of the Taking of Ireland was:

“firstly to unite the population by obliterating the memory of previous and different ethnic groups, secondly to weaken the influence of pre-Christian pagan religions by converting their gods into mere mortals, and thirdly to manufacture pedigrees into which the various dynastic groups could conveniently be fitted.”​
So you could say that this Israelite concept or meme, was designed to obliterate and reset a previous civilisation and replace it with a new one… where have I heard that before?

This process happened all over Europe, Great Britain, Ireland and Scandinavia (even in America much more recently with the Mormon Church) and in my opinion, explains the total bloody mess we have now, with everyone claiming that the Holy Land is in their own back yard.

Another concept is the Lost Tribes of Israel meme, which has already appeared in this thread. Belief in the Lost Tribes of Israel concept is a matter of blind faith, because there is actually no evidence to support it. Rather than spending a lot of time presenting the research behind this I offer these links to satisfy the doubtful, of whom I’m sure there will be plenty:

The Myth of the Ten Lost Tribes
The Lost Tribes of Israel - Bad Archaeology
British Israelism - Wikipedia
Ten Lost Tribes - Wikipedia

Due to the effects of the previous Israelites meme, people were only too keen to be members of one of the ‘Lost Tribes’ so that they too could be one of God’s chosen people, guaranteed of 5 star accommodation in heaven. In much the same way, people today are very keen to be ‘Tartarians’ or decendants of the ‘Orphan Trains’…



dreamtime said:


> The theory reflects a cultural discontent with modernism, and a supposition that traditional styles are inherently good and modern styles are bad.



The conversion of all ancient oral tradition into Christain chronology when combined with the Lost Tribes of Israel meme subsequently spawned many theories regarding the origin of different races, peoples and nations. These theories took the Israelites and Lost Tribes memes as ‘gospel’ – literally – and used it as the basis for their new histories. This has resulted in total historical chaos and the virtual obliteration of all pre-Christian civilisations which have been replaced by theories claiming that most of the known world is populated by people from the Lost Tribes of Israel.

The difference is they didn’t get there in Orphan Trains.

These previous two ancient memes were specifically designed to conceal “forgotten knowledge.” Maybe the latest ones are no different?

It isn’t possible to separate the Tartaria concept from the Mudflood / Reset / Antiquitecture / Star Forts / Orphan Trains etc. because they are all parts of the same concept, in my opinion. With the worldwide Mudflood cataclysm and Reset being brought ever nearer to our own era, it is burying what its proponents claim to be the evil and wicked ‘mainstream history’. All historical events and characters from before the mudflood / reset are considered fictional. So, rather than researching such information as is available and analysing it in the awareness that it is concealing the truth, now anyone can become fully qualified in alternative history simply by watching a few Youtube videos. Anyone can join a forum and either echo the opinions of some Youtube Guru or debunk theories by those who might have been researching for years by simply parroting the Youtube mantras and claiming ‘it’s all fiction’. This situation is now evident in stolenhistory.net.

This is a mirror of the Scamdemic event, or the *COVID-19 meme* if you prefer. On the one hand there are people who are content and even happy to go along with the media misinformation and lies and echo all of the opinions about vaccine deniers, 'negationistas', etc., whilst others do their own research, think for themselves and draw their own conclusions.

The second and third editions of the presumably official forum videos have been aimed precisely at a specific ‘Tartarian’ concept audience and they are directly responsible for why...



dreamtime said:


> we got many new users during the last months, some from Youtube



It’s a shame that these new members will never realise that they are being played like puppets dancing to the master’s tune. The Tartaria meme will and is already concealing as much, if not more, history than the ancient memes above ever did. What will it be replaced with - a medical tyranny maybe or *Tartarus* - literally hell on earth?

It’s my opinion that these memes create fanatics who are blind to reason and have no interest in evidence or discussion, only preaching. This is why I will not be contributing to this thread again, so you can all have a field-day content in the knowledge that I won’t be refuting your counterclaims.

Adios.


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## dreamtime (Jan 21, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> This implies that the Tartary / Tartarian Griffin is a perfectly acceptable symbol to represent the concept of “forgotten knowledge” and yet the actual word ‘Tartaria’ is not acceptable for the concept of an ancient lost worldwide civilisation.



No it doesnt, in my view. People often do not use Tartary as a symbol, but literally as a unified world civilization. Some may mean it symbolically, but then the question is, why the name at all, since there is no connection between Tartary and the proposed world-spanning civilization. Contrary, the fact that the country Tartary got erased from history somewhat is true, thus using it's flag as a symbol for erased history is fitting. The fascination for Tartary originally came from the fact that no one remembered it, and yet there it is on old maps from as young as 250 years. Then the concept broadened to imply a unified world civilization, for which there are no indications in history at all.


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## Blackdiamond (Jan 21, 2022)

Persister said:


> I apologize if I might upset some Judeo (Jewish)-Christians, because they love the Edomites of Judea (called Israel since 1948). But they are not Israel. They are a highly miscegenated people with the blood of Cain and Esau in their bodies. They are Satan's supplanters of the name Israel. They have the bulk of Christianity fooled into thinking they are Israel, so that they can do anything they want ... with the blessings of Christianity. It has been this way since the end of WW2.
> 
> I can't get into it here, because it isn't the place for it. So, please look at my research. The answers are there. When you go to my MeWe group; "The Adam and The Israelites," you can start with "Who Are The Jews."
> 
> ...




I suggest you start a thread. Excuse me if you already have.


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## Bitbybit (Jan 21, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> How do we know which came first? Did the village build the church or did they build the village around the found structure?


The church ruins looks similar to this church ruins.
The flooded church of Vologda oblast photos · Russia Travel Blog
Last photo taken in 1910 (not ruins)


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## Bitbybit (Jan 21, 2022)

Blackdiamond said:


> So the tartar strait, tartar wall of Peking, todays ta'tar people etc. was just a joke or something? There are cities all over the maps. And different peoples. Novosibirsk means New siberia. Someone clearly lived there since there are mirror storus of siberia/tartary as to them of northern americas. They also had big cities.



Just to have the name tartar strait is not that convincing.
Regarding the Tartar wall of Peking; do we have any original old text talking about this as built by superior tartars?  Perhaps it was built by chinese to stop the nomad tartar people to come in? hence the name tartar wall. I am not saying it was, just need some old sources talking about it, not just the word on some postcards etc.

The tartar people of today is no joke. But we can argue to have "saharian people" as well at a vast land of africa. It doesnt mean Sahara was an empire.

EDIT:
Sahara/Sahari/Sahrawi = Arabic for desert, wasteland with sand..
Tartari.... wasteland with some trees?


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## Lightseeker (Jan 21, 2022)

Bitbybit said:


> Just to have the name tartar strait is not that convincing.
> Regarding the Tartar wall of Peking; do we have any original old text talking about this as built by superior tartars?  Perhaps it was built by chinese to stop the nomad tartar people to come in? hence the name tartar wall. I am not saying it was, just need some old sources talking about it, not just the word on some postcards etc.
> 
> The tartar people of today is no joke. But we can argue to have "saharian people" as well at a vast land of africa. It doesnt mean Sahara was an empire.
> ...



There are old maps that show tartaria as anything but a wasteland. Quite the contrary, it shows Tartaria as a populated area.


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## Bitbybit (Jan 21, 2022)

Lightseeker said:


> There are old maps that show tartaria as anything but a wasteland. Quite the contrary, it shows Tartaria as a populated area.


Yes, there were people there. But it was a wasteland.. as in no cities or roads(?).
If it was an empire with large organized administration, it would easily reach the coastlines to build harbours. Instead the most organized properties if any seems to be very old attempts of plundering chinese cities. Then disappeared and left some spots with people still called tartars.


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## Lightseeker (Jan 21, 2022)

Bitbybit said:


> Yes, there were people there. But it was a wasteland.. as in no cities.
> If it was an empire with large organized administration, it would easily reach the coastlines to build harbours. Instead the most organized properties if any seems to be very old attempts of plundering chinese cities. Then disappeared and left some spots with people still called tartars.



So how do they explain the presence of Tartarian tribes on North American soil?


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## Blackdiamond (Jan 21, 2022)

Bitbybit said:


> Yes, there were people there. But it was a wasteland.. as in no cities or roads(?).
> If it was an empire with large organized administration, it would easily reach the coastlines to build harbours. Instead the most organized properties if any seems to be very old attempts of plundering chinese cities. Then disappeared and left some spots with people still called tartars.



Now you sound like dustin in his latest "debunk" where he states "we may never know the truth of tartaria" and right after he puts his hands in a pyramid shape and praise "the most high". No other critisism than that, he and nickels have made some interesting videos earlier. But saying things like that they roamed the dessert and sacked fortified chinese cities is strange. Especially when you consider that they had harbour cities. Possibly on three coastlines. They fought europe masonic elites and china wasnt the "unified" nation it is today. 
I may be wrong though. What do you think of the grids in sibir area? And why is every Czarist era ornament in russia southern / roman? 

mason riding egyptian style.


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## Persister (Jan 22, 2022)

Bitbybit said:


> Just to have the name tartar strait is not that convincing.
> Regarding the Tartar wall of Peking; do we have any original old text talking about this as built by superior tartars?  Perhaps it was built by chinese to stop the nomad tartar people to come in? hence the name tartar wall. I am not saying it was, just need some old sources talking about it, not just the word on some postcards etc.
> 
> The tartar people of today is no joke. But we can argue to have "saharian people" as well at a vast land of africa. It doesnt mean Sahara was an empire.
> ...


Speaking of The Sahara, old maps show that it was very lush.


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## Razor2299 (Jan 22, 2022)

matematik said:


> If Tartaria did exist, the most probable scenario seems to me that it was the Russian Slavs who destroyed it in their Eastward expansion/empire building. It's also interesting that the regions of modern day China with the highest levels of authoritarianism and controls, Tibet and Xinjiang, correspond to the regions that used to be part of Tartaria. This makes me more inclined to think what has happened to those regions is part of a cover up.


I personally believe that Tartaria is just a  misspelled Tataria, which means "the land of Tatars",  or Mongols.

It is known that Russian tzar Ivan the Terrible commisioned Russian cossacks to conquer Siberia, which was known as Tataria (or Tartaria):

These Cossacks elected Yermak as the leader of their armed forces, and in 1582 Yermak set out with an army of 840 to attack the Khanate of Sibir. On *October 26, 1582*, Yermak and his soldiers overthrew Kuchum Khan's Tatar empire at Qashliq in a battle that marked the "conquest of Siberia.

There is a painting by Vasiliy Surikov from 1895 that depicts this event. As you see, Tatars (Tartars) are far from advanced civilization, if we can believe this painting. But it is interesting to study it anyway.





this is the link to more material:
Meet Yermak, the guy who conquered Siberia


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## EUAFU (Jan 22, 2022)

In Portuguese, at least here in Brazil, Tartar means Hell and is also a sauce that contains Onion, Carrot, Garlic, Tomato, Red Pepper, Green Pepper, Salt, and Parsley.


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## TimHonks (Jan 22, 2022)

Persister said:


> I believe that other nations worked with Russia to finally eliminate Grand Tartary. And then they re-wrote history accordingly.


That is what I took away from the one post on Napoleon and Tsar Alexander (The two of them on the same coin as well as Napoleon skipping St. Petersburg and going for Moscow).  I remember another post from KD that was trying to connect Prester John to Tibet/Nepal rather than Ethiopia.  I realize probably most people who know about Tartaria at this point haven't scoured through all those threads but I had thought the narrative to be that they were some descendants of Noah emanating outwards from 'Shangri-La'.


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## Persister (Jan 22, 2022)

TimHonks said:


> That is what I took away from the one post on Napoleon and Tsar Alexander (The two of them on the same coin as well as Napoleon skipping St. Petersburg and going for Moscow).  I remember another post from KD that was trying to connect Prester John to Tibet/Nepal rather than Ethiopia.  I realize probably most people who know about Tartaria at this point haven't scoured through all those threads but I had thought the narrative to be that they were some descendants of Noah emanating outwards from 'Shangri-La'.


Yes, TimHonks. Russia (St. Petersburg was built because of Grand Tartary's strength at Russia's southern border) was not strong enough to attack Grand Tartary (Tartary controlled Moscow). They needed multiple nations to do it. Napoleon was a shill for The Edomites. So, it wouldn't be a surprise that France would have assisted The Russians. But which other nations supported Russia in their effort? It would have taken a lot of power to eliminate Grand Tartary. This causes me to think about how The Edomites got multiple nations to finally eliminate a very strong and nationalist Germany.

What are you trying to say about a Shangri-La? My research has shown me that The Adam, Aryans, were in a more confined area of the earth (The Tarim Basin of western China?), where they were destroyed by a localized flood. This led to the survival of The Adam, The Aryan race, through Noah's family.


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## Blackdiamond (Jan 22, 2022)

Persister said:


> Yes, TimHonks. Russia (St. Petersburg was built because of Grand Tartary's strength at Russia's southern border) was not strong enough to attack Grand Tartary (Tartary controlled Moscow). They needed multiple nations to do it. Napoleon was a shill for The Edomites. So, it wouldn't be a surprise that France would have assisted The Russians. But which other nations supported Russia in their effort? It would have taken a lot of power to eliminate Grand Tartary. This causes me to think about how The Edomites got multiple nations to finally eliminate a very strong and nationalist Germany.
> 
> What are you trying to say about a Shangri-La? My research has shown me that The Adam, Aryans, were in a more confined area of the earth (The Tarim Basin of western China?), where they were destroyed by a localized flood. This led to the survival of The Adam, The Aryan race, through Noah's family.



I agree with everything in your post. Seems like they covered all the northern eurasia. But why bring in the bible in every post?


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## Silveryou (Jan 23, 2022)

dreamtime said:


> I will use this thread to collect more information on this, with the goal to publish an extensive article on this topic, wich can be provided as a reference whenever the topic of Tartary comes up.





Silveryou said:


> I'll try to contribute by selecting the most compelling arguments and commenting on those with a dedicated thread.


So I'm gonna do some posts hoping @dreamtime will take these things in consideration for the *definitive* *official *thread on Tartaria.

First comment about this thread (SH Archive - Tartarian Language and Alphabet) in which KD asks himself what kind of language did Tartarians use.
The answer is only partial and can be deduced by the cover of the book he is quoting from (The General History of China). This is not about the language of all the Tartars and even if it was it is not clearly stated. The book talks about China, Chinese Tartary, Corea and Thibet in the year 1739 and the characters used by those people. I am not going to describe those characters though since I am not competent to do it.
This book doesn't tell us about the languages used in the Indipendent Tartary and Muscovite Tartary.


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## Persister (Jan 23, 2022)

Silveryou said:


> So I'm gonna do some posts hoping @dreamtime will take these things in consideration for the *definitive* *official *thread on Tartaria.
> 
> First comment about this thread (SH Archive - Tartarian Language and Alphabet) in which KD asks himself what kind of language did Tartarians use.
> The answer is only partial and can be deduced by the cover of the book he is quoting from (The General History of China). This is not about the language of all the Tartars and even if it was it is not clearly stated. The book talks about China, Chinese Tartary, Corea and Thibet in the year 1739 and the characters used by those people. I am not going to describe those characters though since I am not competent to do it.
> This book doesn't tell us about the languages used in the Indipendent Tartary and Muscovite Tartary.


https://ia600207.us.archive.org/7/items/generalhistoryof03duha/generalhistoryof03duha.pdf


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## Silveryou (Jan 23, 2022)

Taken from SH Archive - Tartary - an Empire hidden in history. It was bigger than Russia once...:
"It is also worth mentioning that in the British Flag Table of 1783, there are three different flags listed as a flag of the Tsar of Moscow. There is also an Imperial Flag of Russia as well as multiple naval flags. And all of them are proceeded by a flag of the Viceroy of Russia.
*Significance of the Viceroy* is in the definition of the term. A viceroy is a regal official who runs a country, colony, city, province, or sub-national state, in the name of and as the representative of the monarch of the territory. Our official history will probably say that it was the Tsar of Russia who would appoint a viceroy of Moscow. I have reasons to doubt that."




The Viceroy was called *namestnik *(Viceroy - Wikipedia). Translated fom here (Наместник):
"The head of local government in Russia in the late 18th-19th centuries. In 1775, the government of _Catherine II_ introduced the position of governors, who headed the administration in 2-3 provinces, which constituted the governorship. The governors were appointed from among the highest dignitaries, endowed with emergency powers and the right of general supervision over the entire local administration and court apparatus, and were responsible only to the empress. The governors were in charge of the troops located on the territory of the governorship. The executive body of the governors was the governor's board of 2-3 dignitaries. In 1796, Paul I abolished the office of governor. In the 19th century governorships existed on the national outskirts - in the Kingdom of Poland (1815-74) and in the Caucasus (1844/45-83)."

Therefore the territory once called Muscovy was ruled by a governor, confirming its secondary status during the Romanov period. Personally I don't think there was a secret rule of Muscovy over Russia and certainly the position of the flag doesn't mean anything, imo.


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## TimHonks (Jan 23, 2022)

Persister said:


> They needed multiple nations to do it. Napoleon was a shill for The Edomites. So, it wouldn't be a surprise that France would have assisted The Russians. But which other nations supported Russia in their effort? It would have taken a lot of power to eliminate Grand Tartary. This causes me to think about how The Edomites got multiple nations to finally eliminate a very strong and nationalist Germany.


I haven't found anything on Napoleon being a shill for Edomites but I wouldn't rule out deception (considering the group we are discussing).  Not entirely sure if your last point was in jest, but that was probably their greatest achievement in recent history.  Not merely the defeat of the Axis powers but a complete overhaul of western culture.


Persister said:


> What are you trying to say about a Shangri-La? My research has shown me that The Adam, Aryans, were in a more confined area of the earth (The Tarim Basin of western China?), where they were destroyed by a localized flood. This led to the survival of The Adam, The Aryan race, through Noah's family.


What event turned Scythia into Tartary?
I'm hesitant to perceive Adam as merely a metaphor as well as turning the flood into a localized event, but I was briefly looking over the KD post and I don't think any of that goes in direct opposition with it.  I added the shangri-la bit as it felt apt.


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## trismegistus (Jan 23, 2022)

There have been far too many off topic comments on this thread. Please keep thread replies relevant to the OP topic. The thread may become locked if this persists.

This thread is regarding the topic of Tartaria, and the issues surrounding the term being used for a variety of different theories. This is not a subreddit, or a comments section where side conversations and replies are allowed.

This is not a criticism of the points made in the comments, merely a strong suggestion to stay on topic.


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## yoxdo (Jan 24, 2022)

Ive read a lot of books on egypt and africa in general and tartary comes up a lot and always described as hell. Somewhat of a mythical place like the eleusinian fields. In the writing you could tell there was a disdain whenever it was mentioned.


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## Persister (Jan 25, 2022)

yoxdo said:


> Ive read a lot of books on egypt and africa in general and tartary comes up a lot and always described as hell. Somewhat of a mythical place like the eleusinian fields. In the writing you could tell there was a disdain whenever it was mentioned.


Be careful when you look up the meanings of words. Many important words have been changed by our usurpers. This is very important. If you change words, and delete information that you don't want the people to know, the people become blinded.


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## Scythian (Jan 25, 2022)

I guess nobody here heard about the Tatars. Anybody? It's a simple misspelling of those times.  The Scythians made alliances, kind of a federation with all the tribes of the great steppe. Called these tribe home-folks and the steppe homeland. Hun- means home, homeland and all the tribes living in the steppe became the federation of the Hun tribes. Home-folks on homeland. When a specific tribe took the role of the ruler, the federation became an empire. That was the case of the Mongols and later the Tatars. When the Tatars were ruling the steppe, their empire formed on the homeland, the Hun, was called Great Tatary or with the occidental misspell Tartary. The occidentals were used to the Greek expression 'tartary' that means hell and has nothing tot do in fact with the steppe.
  What a lot of dreamers today call 'Tartary' refers in fact to a Global Federation of White cities. That was built between the 1400's and the 1800's all over the planet and it's signature building is the 'Capitol', as it is called in Washington D.C.


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## Safranek (Jan 25, 2022)

Scythian said:


> What a lot of dreamers today call 'Tartary' refers in fact to a Global Federation of White cities. That was built between the 1400's and the 1800's all over the planet and it's signature building is the 'Capitol', as it is called in Washington D.C.


Can you please quote and share your sources for the above post and this in particular?


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## wild heretic (Jan 25, 2022)

Lightseeker said:


> One strong argument against the idea of Tartary/Tartaria is the fact that the huge, beautiful buildings people like to post in threads related to Tartary are usually located in Europe, where Tartaria was not located. This kind of architecture is not present in the huge landmass that used to be Tartary.
> 
> Still doesn't explain the mystery of the world's fairs.



I know this is a bit off-topic, but I fancy an electrical woo-woo kind of explanation of the mid-to-late nineteenth century problem with its world fairs, fires and great architecture. I won't go into it in this thread (partly because I don't have too much to go on also). 

We got set back by around 50 years because of this. Perhaps something akin to Alois Irmaier and his prophecy that in the future we have a big population reduction and go back to the technology of our grandparents' time etc. The cause may not be the same, however,


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## Scythian (Jan 25, 2022)

Safranek said:


> Can you please quote and share your sources for the above post and this in particular?


Quote/share - Akasha Chronicles.


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## Safranek (Jan 25, 2022)

Scythian said:


> Quote/share - Akasha Chronicles.


LIink?


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## Scythian (Jan 25, 2022)

Safranek said:


> LIink?


Akashic records - Wikipedia


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## Safranek (Jan 25, 2022)

Scythian said:


> Akashic records - Wikipedia


You're kidding right? That is a page on Theosophy. Nothing is mentioned regarding the historical claims you made.

I was hoping you had a reliable source for the above mentioned post. When you make claims, please quote sources where those claims can be checked and verified, as in who said it and where they got the idea.


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## Scythian (Jan 25, 2022)

Safranek said:


> You're kidding right? That is a page on Theosophy. Nothing is mentioned regarding the historical claims you made.
> 
> I was hoping you had a reliable source for the above mentioned post. When you make claims, please quote sources where those claims can be checked and verified, as in who said it and where they got the idea.


Are you being aggressive? Funny. Is there an Akasha Cronicle? Is there a record of the whole history in the vibrational energy that surrounds us? Some say it is. In my, and others perspective it is the most reliable source of information.  You obviously say no. I do not want to convince you of anything. I present information. Take it or leave it. And don't be cocky with me, you don't know me. Adres me with respect, I answer as well.


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## Safranek (Jan 25, 2022)

Scythian said:


> Are you being aggressive? Funny. Is there an Akasha Cronicle? Is there a record of the whole history in the vibrational energy that surrounds us? Some say it is. In my, and others perspective it is the most reliable source of information.  You obviously say no. I do not want to convince you of anything. I present information. Take it or leave it. And don't be cocky with me, you don't know me. Adres me with respect, I answer as well.


I was not being disrespectful at all, I think you misinterpreted my statement. Your opinion is welcome as is everyone's which is why we have this forum.

However, when we make claims regarding historical events, we try to quote sources which are the most reliable we can find to back up the ideas being presented. It gives others the opportunity to read the researcher's sources and agree or disagree, also stating their own sources why they do so.

While most of us are aware of what the Akashic Records are, we do not use them for historical sources, and that is not because we don't believe that they may contain reliable information, but because the channel is a human being prone to errors and/or bias, and the influences attracted in a channeled state have been found to be unreliable for consistently true information.

Thus, after you read about what some may claim to have 'read' from said Records, try and verify that information through reliable historical, archeological, antropological, linguistic and genetic sources. What I was requesting are such sources.


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## torgo (Jan 26, 2022)

dreamtime said:


> If anything, Tartary should be understood as a symbol for forgotten knowledge - that's why we have the Tartary Griffin in our logo.


I think it's interesting that one of the flags of Mecklenburg-Rostock in this book is the same as the Tartary flag. 

Could Tartary have been a German territory?


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## Safranek (Jan 26, 2022)

torgo said:


> Could Tartary have been a German territory?


Based on maps we have available, I would guess that its the other way around.

There are a few other flags in that collection that offer some clues also. For instance, for the year 1862, there is still an alarming number of similarities among distant nations' flags which go against our current version of history regarding who ruled those lands at that time.


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## Blackdiamond (Jan 26, 2022)

Samoyed Sapmi Soumi-(Finnland) all the same folks?
Is this the reason why dna match all old civilizations through out the nothern lands from Ainu of hokkaido, blonde people found in todays china area, to scandinavia? 
Tartaria could have been a union, or a great kingsdome, or something we cant comprahend these days. But what differentiated it, and got it occult, is probably it wasnt ruled by todays rulers.
Could it have been an umbrella for the invasion armies? A prequell for the soviet empire? 

This is perhaps why finns are so confident, proud, stubborn and although they have been, they dont accept foreigners to rule. It was the last biblicated land on earth and they best the soviets in war.
It may have used to be the great northern land. Either the center or a region of it. Perhaps the original "indo-european" language as some here have suggested. 
It is the reason why they have no official history. At all. 

It is why we see strange and out of place symbology in sweden such as griffons. Churches in Norway resembles those of more asiatic designs. It is remnants of what was. 
- Symbols in Russia portrays southern things, you cant find any spruce or moose or other native things. It's all roman / phonecian. Only southern depiction on ornaments. 
Perhaps the mudflooders simply have stood so long uninhabitaded that they start to sink in to the ground. And how easy was it for a group of people who found a ruin, sunk  in to the dessert, to claim it was built by their forefathers 6 million years ago? Quite easy since non was there to see it being built. Just write a paper, store it, and bring it forth when someone question you. And while were at it, why not make it a sin to question your holey story, since everyone have to follow that cult religion now. Anyway. 
- The Czar's war ship had a yellow flag in the nordic war against sweden. Often croped  out from oficial media because it wasnt a russian flag. It simply didnt exist yet as a unified land.
However, wether this st petersburg / novgorod russian nation was an army set out to destroy the last bit of the old north, (which was south at the time when looking at contemporary maps,) or if it was a tartarys last western front is hard to say. One would need to read in authentic old books. Probably only found in the few really inaccessible archives / homes today. 
The true ending of Tartaria is, what i found most likely, the crimean war. 
  After that loss, european socialist movement gets traction in the west, culminating in the bolsjevik "revolution" which was largely funded by people in germany between the world wars, as they are greatly inaccurate named, "1" and "2".
I found the reason for it to have been to end the german independence in europe, and for some reason to set up a soviet, for the erasing of old traditions and self relience of their natives.

This bolshevik movement, who removed (and still operates,) every possible piece and peace of the old world, sending groups of people here and there, killing, torture etc the non complyers, just how the story is of the how the church did in older times. 
And the church also share its roots of bolshevism, abrahamitic. 
- Growing up, the english and german battle still existed. Must have been the ol' divide and conquer. It looks like now both countrys is as diluted of their strong heritage as the other. The people who seem content with this world's direction is the various temple dwellers. It is without exeption. Because the rest of us wants peace, and you cant move  people around in times of peace. Only possible in communist states. And on the other side of the coin you have capitalism, just as bad. The duality, two pillars. 
Altough, why masons enjoy so much wearing egyptian aprons and muhammed / catholic hats i dont know. 

- Feel free to shoot them ideas down if you think they are lacking. But if your counter argument is a quote from the bible or bible magazine I will haunt you if I die before you


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## Jd755 (Jan 26, 2022)

SH Archive - Tartar or Tatar?


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## Oracle (Jan 26, 2022)

dreamtime said:


> I don't think it was random lands. It was kingdoms after the fall of scythia. The maps we know were created by Westerners. They probaly invented the term Tartarians, and maybe it originally came from "Territory."
> 
> It makes sense because we see the territory divided among different political factions (Chinese Tartary, etc.).
> 
> But this doesn't necessarily mean that Tartary was only a region. It probably was just like what we see in the rest of the world of that time: scattered kingdoms and emperors. Those than got wiped out after the Russians and Chinese, etc. moved in.


Kind of like how Ireland got put under the heading of the British Isles though being a completely different language,culture, and history.


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## HELLBOY (Jan 28, 2022)

Talking about old maps, have you seen the Fra Mauro 1450 map?
Composite map: Mappemonde Pl. 1-6


I would like to start with the fact that Tartary seems to be concentrated near the Caspian Sea, between Dagistan, Circassia, Ukraine, surrounded by some Russias (White, Black).






The text seems to say something important in Latin, if someone could translate it it would be great.






Around the corner from Tartary we have this region called "The Horde of Organta, in what would be Independent Tartary in future maps, today Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, I seemed to understand that the text is related to Alexander the Macedonian.






Passing the Russias, we have the area where the name Chataio (Catharos? Cathay?) predominates.






It is near the city of Cambalu in Cathaio, there is another text referring to Alexander the Macedonian.






Below Chataio we have the region called Serica, Mango, Thibet.





Serica:
Serica - Wikipedia

Pliny the Elder tells of the expedition of Annius Plocamo to Taprobane (perhaps Ceylon, Indonesia or even Tacloban in the Philippines). He tells that the father of a certain Raquias, an ambassador of Taprobane, had visited the country of the beings:

(...) Beyond the Emodio Mountains, there was the people of the beings, who were known for trade. The father of Rachias had come there and upon his arrival the beings had come to meet him. They were tall, blond-haired, blue-eyed individuals, they had a raucous voice and their language was not very suitable for trade.


Urbano Monte's 1587 map seems to have the same composition as Fra Mauro's, although strangely he did add the Chinese wall, something that neither Fra Mauro nor Marco Polo mentioned. Composite: Tavola 1-60. (Map of the World) (with additional spheres and labels in the four corners). - David Rumsey Historical Map Collection




According to Marco Polo's book:
Is Mexico-Tenochtitlan in reality the mythic Quinsay as described by Marco Polo?
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/10636/10636-h/10636-h.htm
Who reigned over the Tartars and countless other peoples ("ruled over the three Indies") was the Prestor John and it was Genghis Khan who was the first to gather all the Tartars under his command.
His first objective was to ask for the hand of the daughter of the Prestor John and he considered the Tartars as inferior and the war was inevitable.
Pretor John had a lot of confidence in himself for not considering the Tartars as worthy enemies, in the end he lost his territories.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following thought I share from the KD thread on the Napoleonic Wars and year 1812: when did they happen?
Napoleonic Wars and Year 1812: when did they happen?



> To be honest, I realize with each passing day that I understand less and less the mechanism used to falsify our history. I am past the point where I thought that simple manipulation could be the answer to historical shenanigans. I still don't know if some kind of matrix could explain the things we see. God's ways are definitely mysterious. Ultimately, I keep lying that I will be able to figure out the puzzle. We have a narrative superimposed on the existing historical evidence of physical nature, and these two do not come together. This article requires a serious stretch of perception, because without it, certain occurrences are not possible. Please watch the following video of Michelle Gibson. She is too smart for me, but her time loop hypothesis might be something to explore further. If the 1942 Philadelphia Experiment created some sort of time loop, altering everything in the process, we would have to improve our research tactics.
> With this in mind, a critical analysis of the anachronistic issues pertaining to the so-called Napoleonic Wars, could be quite important in establishing an incorrect sequence of looping historical events.
> Anachronistic: belonging to a different era than the one portrayed.
> The identification of anachronistic patterns could help us to place various events in the timeline. Some of the events grouped using this approach are traditionally separated by hundreds and thousands of years. Could some of the events (and empires) be one and the same? You be the judge.



KD says for example:
I have mentioned it before and I have to repeat it. Everything about our history is more or less a lie. Any book you cite is nothing more than a reflection of the historical narrative they had at the time of publication. 

I certainly understood those words when I remembered at the same time how this author John Ogilby in 1671, searching for the origin of the Americans from all the sources he could consult in his time (I will leave the list of sources below) went from Solomon, Romans, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, The Tribes of Israel, etc. To finally launch a final idea in which he believes it is more likely that Tartary is more related to America, but the way he describes both the Tartars and the Americans leaves no doubt as he is following the line of unprimitive and cannibalistic people.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/59745/59745-h/59745-h.htm


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## Silveryou (Jan 28, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> Talking about old maps, have you seen the Fra Mauro 1450 map?
> Composite map: Mappemonde Pl. 1-6


Here the transcription of the texts translated: http://www.myoldmaps.com/late-medie...auros-mappamundi/fra-mauro-transcriptions.pdf.


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## Gabriel (Jan 29, 2022)

I agree that the few excerpts from books that I will share isn't proving much of anything, but at the same time, it seems like the references to a Tartarian people in numerous books (examples such as _Travels in Tartary, Thibet and China_ by M. Huc and _With Peter Fleming in Tartar_ by Gary Hogg) and its language below, is in dozens of books. And I am arguing for the existence of their culture.

Hogg argues that the reason why the Tartars never built was because they are masters of a desolate environment, and a cruel nomadic culture. (see  below)



From what I have witnessed, it seems that all sorts of circumstantial evidence supports the argument that there was a Tartarian culture, and in one book, the screenshots below compare an alleged Tartarian language (image left), to the more well known Tangut script (center and right image):








Nord en Oost Tartarye, Nicholas Witsen

I would say it looks to me like a semitic language written right to left and most like arabic (modern reqaa or naskh script, image left).  The image far right, middle box, shows "Crimean-Tartar" numbers.  But certainly if one were to say it was "Romulan" from Star Trek, in the end I would be none wiser.

I think we have all come across this commentary either on this site or elsewhere pertaining to the Tartar language:



source - The General History of China, Du Halde.​At any rate I think after looking at these books, I favor that a Tartarian Culture existed.  But I can't go any further and say that I can similarly show evidence of borders, architecture, etc... 

Also, if Tartary lacks the circumstantial evidence to prove they are a distinct (vanished) culture, then I will have to critically examine some other ancient cultures. 

Lastly, I would entertain any thoughts from the group:  Is there an agreed upon archaeologic standard to satisfactorily prove the existence of a culture in the absence of native speakers (ie., a vanished race)? 



​


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## Conciousness_Arise (Jan 29, 2022)

Akanah said:


> Good to see it addressed here. It has long bothered me that the old united world should have been somewhere in Russia. It would be better if we found our own term for the old united world.


Would it be fair to say, that if there was an old united world, we need only look at the origins of the building styles? I believe the style was called Greco-Roman.


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## HELLBOY (Jan 31, 2022)

Gabriel said:


> I agree that the few excerpts from books that I will share isn't proving much of anything, but at the same time, it seems like the references to a Tartarian people in numerous books (examples such as _Travels in Tartary, Thibet and China_ by M. Huc and _With Peter Fleming in Tartar_ by Gary Hogg) and its language below, is in dozens of books. And I am arguing for the existence of their culture.
> 
> Hogg argues that the reason why the Tartars never built was because they are masters of a desolate environment, and a cruel nomadic culture. (see  below)
> View attachment 19157
> ...



I have this image present, if we compare them with the actual map they look quite different.






I do not know if they can be added as circumstantial evidence:

I follow some men who are dedicated to looking for parallels between different cultures, parallels that exist between cultures such as Mesopotamian, Etruscan, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Chinese, Indian, Peruvian, Mexican. Of course, these men consider that such parallels are because they are archetypes coming from a mother civilization, therefore they are mostly atheists seeing also parallels in terms of gods, they are faithful believers of continents like Atlantis, Lemuria, they do not believe in a phantom time like Fomenko, nor in something like the Great Tartary. But I am always checking their parallels because I find them quite curious, interesting, no doubt they keep a great secret so many similarities between all these cultures.

These are some threads where I have added images about these parallels, all of them are from Facebook and I can pass you link if you are interested.

Eagle versus Serpent - What does It Mean?
America's Discovery in Jewish Chronicles
The secret of the twins Quetzalcoatl and Xolotl
Proof of Dragons?

Here are some interesting parallels like the ones I mention:












































Perhaps you know the theory of the earth reflected in the moon, this digitized map seems to show continents like Lemuria, Hyperborea, Atlantis and more.
Does the moon reflect the true map of the earth?


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## Gabriel (Jan 31, 2022)

For the Inca and Egyptian parallel, I am a believer, and that is shown well by LePlongeon. A good  summary here.

I think Jirazhbhoy and H. mertz too. Collectively these three have shown african, asian, and egytian parallels with central and south americans. Countless other people have also as you know. 

For me, The question of who influenced who arises.   This is where the common legends of creation begin to suggest that they didn’t influence each other, they are perhaps variations of some sort of tall, fair, cro-magnon, atlantean,  race.


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## HELLBOY (Jan 31, 2022)

Anatoli Fomenko
He and his colleagues created the theory of the New Chronology, an extreme revisionism of historical chronology that claims that the usual chronology of historical events is incorrect in general. According to them the written history of mankind began around 800 A.D., there being very little information about the events of the period between 800-1000 A.D., while most of the historical events we know as ancient and early medieval would have actually occurred between 1000-1500 A.D. Thus, all Biblical, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Greco-Roman and Byzantine History was simultaneous with the second half of the Middle Ages, eliminating the High Middle Ages and the Ancient Ages. The rulers of Egypt, Assyria, Israel or Rome would be the same as the Byzantine emperors, the characters of the Bible, too, and the New Testament is prior to the Old. In the same way, historical characters of Western Europe, such as the Merovingian or Anglo-Saxon kings, would be considered in this version a copy of the rulers of Constantinople, head of the only empire in history, whose inheritance passed to the Russian Empire.
Anatoly Fomenko - Wikipedia


I remember this excellent thread about how many of our historical sources actually come from the Middle Ages.
SH Archive - The History of Rome has no Surviving Sources



> The Roman Empire is the model of much of our modern democracies. Indeed, much of our beloved literary works model their moral themes on the foibles of famous Romans.
> 
> I'm not aware that anyone has actually gone through each of the major sources for their history, all at once, to see if any of them actually have any surviving sources. So i took it upon myself to try this out. Imagine my shock to find out that basically none of their works survive, and in fact what does survive are copies typically from the middle ages.
> 
> ...



Attempts to date historical events have existed since time immemorial. But early efforts were restricted mainly to events described in the Bible. There were also local chronologies (for small time periods and in small regions). But the first global chronology of Europe and the Middle East was not sketched until the 16th century. It was the work of Joseph Justus Scaliger, a French scholar who was fluent in 13 languages and therefore was able to study hundreds of documents from all over the world.
He was a philologist and wanted to understand the flow of ideas, who influenced whom in ancient and medieval literature. But in order to do this he needed to know when the different writers lived, since only an older author could influence the more recent ones. So he embarked on the task of establishing the first global chronology and trying to see when the events of antiquity took place. Up to that time, the determining events of history were known, but it was not known exactly when they had happened, nor what order they had in time. Despite furious opposition, he was able to successfully establish the foundations of historical chronology.

We have a narrative superimposed on the existing historical evidence of physical nature, and these two do not coalesce. 
Everything about our history is more or less a lie. Any book you cite is nothing more than a reflection of the historical narrative they had at the time of publication.
We have already seen how there are multiple parallels between different civilizations. Some of the events are traditionally separated by hundreds and thousands of years.
Could some of the events (and empires) be one and the same? 

For example, these threads can help as examples to note how there are many stories that are repeated between different characters spread over time. More specifically threads related to Napoleon and the War of 1812, a key date in both Europe and America.
Napoleonic Wars and Year 1812: when did they happen?
Napoléon, aka Nicholas, Brutus and Ali Bonaparte: what do we know?
Suvorov, Yermak, Pugachev, Razin and the Siberian War

If we accept the fact that much of our history comes from the Middle Ages, and that everything we know really comes together in a multitude of repeated empires, it leaves us without much to go on to prove the existence of a global, highly technological empire. It only leaves us with certain legends, inventors, developing devices ahead of their time.
SH Archive - Ancient and early 20th century Robots

We have these anomalies of symbols such as the Bicephalous Eagle that appears in the folklore of American peoples from before the conquest, the Swastika for example and many more.


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## Will Scarlet (Jan 31, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> Anatoli Fomenko
> He and his colleagues created the theory of the New Chronology, an extreme revisionism of historical chronology that claims that the usual chronology of historical events is incorrect in general. According to them the written history of mankind began around 800 A.D., there being very little information about the events of the period between 800-1000 A.D., while most of the historical events we know as ancient and early medieval would have actually occurred between 1000-1500 A.D. Thus, all Biblical, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Greco-Roman and Byzantine History was simultaneous with the second half of the Middle Ages, eliminating the High Middle Ages and the Ancient Ages. The rulers of Egypt, Assyria, Israel or Rome would be the same as the Byzantine emperors, the characters of the Bible, too, and the New Testament is prior to the Old. In the same way, historical characters of Western Europe, such as the Merovingian or Anglo-Saxon kings, would be considered in this version a copy of the rulers of Constantinople, head of the only empire in history, whose inheritance passed to the Russian Empire.
> Anatoly Fomenko - Wikipedia
> 
> ...



I thought this thread was about Tartaria being a myth rather than chronology... ?


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## HELLBOY (Jan 31, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> I thought this thread was about Tartaria being a myth rather than chronology... ?


You are absolutely right I thought I went a little off topic, but I think I also read that it is questioned that it has been a global empire, global technological (etheric), global architectural, it is taken for granted that it existed but not that it has been related precisely with the development of other areas of the planet.


> I do believe there was once a unified civilization, with a unified architecture. But "Tartary" is a misnomer for it.
> 
> The myth arose when Russians began to realize that before their country was called Russia, it was called "Tartary" on ancient maps. And it encompassed not only Russia, but most of Asia.
> 
> ...


That's when I thought that chronology is of great importance because it narrows down time and even lets us see a lot of lies and overlapping narrative, a very obvious example would be the case of the Wild West and yet we have this incredible information about Fousang and the strange urban fires, especially in San Francisco. No one even imagined such architecture in the wild west and gold rush times.
SH Archive - Fou-Sang & 1870s board game: Voyage from New York to San Francisco upon the Union Pacific Railroad
SH Archive - Who nuked San Francisco in 1906?
SH Archive - 1878 San Francisco: abandoned and ready for re-population...
That's why I put up KD threads with those curious characters that seem to represent a single individual.

By the way, I have read Fomenko and I have even seen videos and they always avoid calling this civilization Tartary before Russia (Russia-Mongolian Horde), I also know that he speaks that Russia was in fact the real Rome, and that these Romas were divided along the history in different points like 1-Egypt, 2-Turkey, 3-Novgorod, 4-Turkey, 5-Moscu, in each one of these points in which it was it happened to have different names according to the official chronology, as giving to understand that many empires were only one.



> As mentioned above, the oldest kingdom, of which only the vaguest records survive, is The Ancient First Rome or Old Rome in the Nile Valley. In Scaliger's version of history, which was created in the 17th century, there was a kingdom in the Nile Valley called Egypt. This appears to be incorrect. The original biblical Egypt has no relation to this kingdom. The Egypt of the Pentateuch of the Old Testament is, in fact, the Rus'-Horda (the Rus'-Horda Empire) of XIV-XVI cc. But henceforth, the Biblical name Egypt = Gypt = Kipchak was attributed to Africa and attributed to a truly ancient Kingdom in the Nile Valley. This resulted in confusion.
> In the X-XI cc. the capital of this Kingdom is moved to the city of Yoros on the Asian coast of the Bosporus. We will provisionally call it The Second Rome. Aka Jerusalem of the Gospels, also known as "ancient" Troy. Then the capital moved to Rus', to Yaroslavl - Veliky Novgorod, also known as 'ancient Rome'. This in total was the Third Rome, which most "ancient authors" consider to be the first to ignore the previous incarnations. After a while, the capital of the Empire returned to the Bosporus, but not to its former location, it moved to the other side of the Bosporus, to its European shore, not to its Asian shore. It was there that emerged medieval Constantinople, also known as medieval Tsar-Grad of the late XIV-XV cc., Later - Turkish (Ottoman) Istanbul. In general, it was The Fourth Rome, or on a shorter account, the second. As we know, Moscow was later called the Third Rome (according to the short count). In some ancient texts, Tsar-Grad was known as Kiev. That is why some of the significant historical events in 'Kiev' took place in Tsar-Grad on the Bosporus. To summarize, 1st Rome: the Nile Valley (Alexandria, Cairo); 2nd Rome: Yoros = Jerusalem = Troy; 3rd Rome: Vladimir-Suzdal Rus' = Veliky Novgorod (Yaroslavl, Vladimir) = Rome of Enei-Rurik; 4th Rome; Constantinople; 5th Rome: Moscow. But when in the 16th century the Roma were counted, where Moscow was counted as the Third Rome (and not the Fifth), they clearly started counting not from the deep antiquity of Egypt-African, but from the Rome of Enei-Rurik, i.e., from Yaroslavl.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Then, on the basis of the new Chronology, we generally describe the reconstruction of history up to and including the 18th century. It was followed by the next stage. They began to ask us: then, what did the famous 'classical' authors actually tell us? Herodotus, Thucydides, Titus Livy, Homer and the others? In answering the question, we analyzed virtually all the major 'classical' and medieval sources that form the basis of the Scaligerian history of antiquity, the construction of which, as we discovered, was rather late, in the 17th-18th centuries cc. In particular, we thoroughly investigated the following texts: the Bible (both Old and New Testaments), the Talmud, the Torah, the New and Old Testament 'Apocrypha', the Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Popol Vuh (the Sacred Book of the American K'iche Mayan People, Herodotus, Titus Livy, Claudius Ptolemy, Homer, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus, Publius Cornelius Tacitus, Marcus Tullius Cicero, Plutarch, Thucydides, Xenophon, Plato, Aristophanes, Ovid, Polybius, Pausanius, Diodorus Siculus, Ammianus Marcellinus, Josephus Flavius, The Aggadah (Aramaic Tales), Appian of Alexandria, Apollodorus, Eutropius, Sextus Aurelius Victor, Aelius Spartianus, Iulius Capitolinus, Aelius Lampridius, Paulus Orosius, John Malalas, John Marcolas, Louis Marco del Carpine, the epic of 'ancient' India 'Mahabharata', the epic of 'ancient' Persia 'Shahnameh' (Ferdowsi), the 'ancient' Germanic heroic verse, the 'ancient' Old Norse Edda 'Elder Edda', Geoffrey of Monmouth, Nennius, the Anglo-Saxon Saxon Chronicle, Raphael Holinshed, Saxo Grammaticus, The Legend of King Arthur, The Legends of Alexander the Great, The Legend of Troy, the ancient French legends, some important Muslim sources, going further. Niketas Choniates, Anna Komnene, Procopius of Caesarea (and some other Byzantine authors), Geoffrey de Villehardouin, Robert deClari, 'The Primary Chronicle' (or 'Tale of Bygone Years') and the other important Russian chronicles (including the Siberian chronicles), the Russian epic multivolume 'The Russian Epic Multivolume The Illustrated Chronicle of Ivan the Terrible' (Litsevoy Svod) (not long ago finally published by Akteon Publishing House, Moscow), Mavro Orbini, Philostratus (Life of Apollonius of Tyana), Iamblichus Chalcidensis, Diogenes Laertius, Porphyry of Tyana, Bartholomew de las Casas, Bernal Diaz del Castillo, the works of some of the Church Fathers, the ancient chronological works and tables (Joseph Juste Scaliger, Dionysius Petavius, Matthew Blastares and many others) . .. We will stop this list here.



Russia - Horde was in fact biblical Israel and the Ottoman Empire was Judea. He makes a parallel between Solomon and Suleiman the Magnificent taking into account that he takes the Old Testament as more recent than the New Testament.

Source:
PDF
By GALINA LIKOSOVA
Associate Professor
National University of Colombia
Medellin Branch
January 2000
It can be downloaded here but it comes in Spanish, actually it is a summary of Fomenko's work.
Zaloguj się do Facebooka


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## Will Scarlet (Feb 1, 2022)

HELLBOY said:


> I think I also read that it is questioned that it has been a global empire, global technological (etheric), global architectural, it is taken for granted that it existed but not that it has been related precisely with the development of other areas of the planet.



That's a very awkward sentence to understand, but it is only "taken for granted that it existed" by the disciples of the Tartaria meme and in fact *that is the point* - there are so many things that have been spawned from the Tartaria mantra, as you have illustrated, that the basic tenet gets "taken for granted."


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## HELLBOY (Feb 1, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> That's a very awkward sentence to understand, but it is only "taken for granted that it existed" by the disciples of the Tartaria meme and in fact *that is the point* - there are so many things that have been spawned from the Tartaria mantra, as you have illustrated, that the basic tenet gets "taken for granted."


Okay, I understand what you're saying. It only remains to try to look for evidence if there is any, scratching among what we have. 
Regarding what Dreamtime says about how youtubers use the name Tartaria, I think it is based on the fact that Tartaria is a keyword for the search, just put the keyword Tartaria in the Youtube search engine and you will see a variety of related videos unlike any other name. 
You Tube is an algorithm that recommends you videos according to what you are watching, that's why using the name Tartaria is giving more visibility to your video, I have heard that they themselves (youtubers) say that this way of naming Tartaria is wrong, but well, it is a name that most people are looking for and are assured views. Unless you are an established youtuber you can use any name because you already have a large audience.


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## luchin001 (Feb 2, 2022)

The worst thing about a site like this is making blunt statements and believing that you own the truth with the arrogance with which the author of the article does it. There is nothing worse than starting to look over your shoulder and feel superior.
if we are in this place it is because something does not add up to us, there is something that is out of place in this world and because you feel that they are deceiving you no matter how much they try to make things fit by force or they have convinced you of "their truth "You know something's not right


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## OBRYprojekt (Feb 3, 2022)

It's root can also be found in OBRY (Hebrew sans Masorah) as TAR (Strong's H8388-9), being translated as "drawn; mark" concerning geography, and "full form" concerning objects or people. A double root in OBRY/Hebrew is an augmentation: ShOShO "great salvation" compared to ShO "salvation". In English (from PIE) "tar" is more from a verb root "spread out" than referring to a specific substance. And "tere-" was a PIE prefix denoting "crossing over", thus space. "Territory" is an appropriate English descendant.


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## Blackdiamond (Feb 9, 2022)

OBRYprojekt said:


> It's root can also be found in OBRY (Hebrew sans Masorah) as TAR (Strong's H8388-9), being translated as "drawn; mark" concerning geography, and "full form" concerning objects or people. A double root in OBRY/Hebrew is an augmentation: ShOShO "great salvation" compared to ShO "salvation". In English (from PIE) "tar" is more from a verb root "spread out" than referring to a specific substance. And "tere-" was a PIE prefix denoting "crossing over", thus space. "Territory" is an appropriate English descendant.



As I understand it: The Church created what we know as Moscow, knocking out the real Russia. The Khazars, who had already appropriated Judaism, took over in Novgorod with their trading skills and the wealth later gathered in Moscow to finance the erode of history and people to the east of the Moscow empire. What was distinguished as the Tartariet on the maps. And, instead of uniting the two Christians who over time became sparred in the different approaches of east and west. So the Moscow Kingdom/Church fought the "Turk-Mongols" Mongols in the South(!) and, according to wiki, in the east against savages living in the Siberian forest, without cities or society. Does anyone have an idea of what and what black Russia, Red Russia and White Russia were like before today's nations became? "At least if we now have a significant proportion of the "Hebrew" population in the leading strata of Moscow, it is possible that your interpretation of the language may be correct. But who were these people they called Tartars? 

Was it the case that timur's kingdom was not at all a collection of tent villages, but a fully functioning society from the Azarov Sea to the Tartar Strait in the Far East? War is something that lies bricklayers and other ecclesiastical organizations seem to prefer. Why destroy an entire civilization? Takeaway or expantion like today's Israel?


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## OBRYprojekt (Feb 11, 2022)

Blackdiamond said:


> As I understand it: The Church created what we know as Moscow, knocking out the real Russia. The Khazars, who had already appropriated Judaism, took over in Novgorod with their trading skills and the wealth later gathered in Moscow to finance the erode of history and people to the east of the Moscow empire. What was distinguished as the Tartariet on the maps. And, instead of uniting the two Christians who over time became sparred in the different approaches of east and west. So the Moscow Kingdom/Church fought the "Turk-Mongols" Mongols in the South(!) and, according to wiki, in the east against savages living in the Siberian forest, without cities or society. Does anyone have an idea of what and what black Russia, Red Russia and White Russia were like before today's nations became? "At least if we now have a significant proportion of the "Hebrew" population in the leading strata of Moscow, it is possible that your interpretation of the language may be correct. But who were these people they called Tartars?
> 
> Was it the case that timur's kingdom was not at all a collection of tent villages, but a fully functioning society from the Azarov Sea to the Tartar Strait in the Far East? War is something that lies bricklayers and other ecclesiastical organizations seem to prefer. Why destroy an entire civilization? Takeaway or expantion like today's Israel?


I am entirely unsure the etymology of "Tartar". I can just give a close meaning based on descent knowledge of old language. I think it's no mistake that looking into the authentic past has inherited the label "Tartarian". This misuse, or at the least misappropriation of a term not fully understood, will stick with these revisionists for a very long time. That's the power and danger of applying unsure/unproven labels as absolutes.


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## nurekerey (Feb 14, 2022)

This can't' be true, because there was a tartar language and flags, Tartar is closer to Tatar than to Territory.


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## feralimal (Feb 14, 2022)

Re tartars - I'm coming to the view, that really they were pinched by the development of property right enshrined in law.  Perhaps like the Kurds, Arabs, gypsies, aboriginals, Native Americans, etc of the past.

What I mean by that, is that perhaps they were a nomadic group - they didn't own land or territory (even if they dominated an area) - they moved about.  They (rightly IMO) did not even think they could own land.  They just moved around and peaceably interacted with other groups in the same areas - the Rus, Turks, etc.  This way of existence was perhaps very successful for thousands of years.

But once you have an entity like the British Empire coming in, *establishing law* - nomadic people lose out.  They cannot stake a claim for areas that they only intermittently use.

Anyway - my thought here is that Tartars were/are a nation, a race of people that shared a type of thinking and way of life, but without the concept of land ownership that now overlays our reality and is generally accepted.


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## GandalfTheGreen (Feb 14, 2022)

The name Tartary is older than the dates of both of these maps.  As far as I've been able to find, it relates back to the ancient Greeks.  Over time it has changed phonetically. Tartarus - Wikipedia


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## Megalonymous (Feb 14, 2022)

Tartarus is the same as Egyptian neserser or the lake of double fire in the underworld. Same place same folks.

peace.
ps underworld was paradise before catastrophe.


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## OBRYprojekt (Feb 15, 2022)

nurekerey said:


> This can't' be true, because there was a tartar language and flags, Tartar is closer to Tatar than to Territory.


Can you cite the earliest source reference to a complete language with a positive affirmation that it is linked to the same people as the geographical expression? What's the primary source for the "Tartarian" flag, again, that positively links it to said geographical expression and specific people?


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## Blackdiamond (Feb 15, 2022)

OBRYprojekt said:


> Can you cite the earliest source reference to a complete language with a positive affirmation that it is linked to the same people as the geographical expression? What's the primary source for the "Tartarian" flag, again, that positively links it to said geographical expression and specific people?



Here or there, there are alphabets, descriptions of language and cities. 
Maybe a better question is, why make everything up and then erase it? 
Here we have Tartare / Tattare. Finns have even more of of the latest big migration. Of course no one knows where the travellers are from. But they have always been distinguished(?) from Zigeuner / Gypsies.


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## GandalfTheGreen (Feb 15, 2022)

Megalonymous said:


> Tartarus is the same as Egyptian neserser or the lake of double fire in the underworld. Same place same folks.
> 
> peace.
> ps underworld was paradise before catastrophe.


We are the Underworld.  The Heavens above us, is the Overworld.  (We'll find peace again, just going to take awhile)


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## Megalonymous (Feb 15, 2022)

GandalfTheGreen said:


> We are the Underworld.  The Heavens above us, is the Overworld.  (We'll find peace again, just going to take awhile)


I think this place is in "tartaria"

Midrash ha-Gadol (to Gen. 2:8)
Eden is a unique place on earth, but no creature is permitted to know its exact location. In the future, during the messianic period God will reveal to Israel the path to Eden.

Taanit 31a:9
In the future, in the end of days, the Holy One, Blessed be He, will arrange a dance of the righteous, and He will be sitting among them in the Garden of Eden, and each and every one of the righteous will point to God with his finger, as it is stated: “And it shall be said on that day: Behold, this is our God, for whom we waited, that He might save us. This is the Lord; for whom we waited. We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation”. God will be revealed, so that every righteous individual will be able to say: This is our God, as though they were pointing at Him with a finger.

the catholics say in their dogma this place is real and will be found when god wants it to happen

peace


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## robgreen12345 (Feb 19, 2022)

dreamtime said:


> View attachment 18703
> _Tartary, a vast country in the northern parts of Asia... This is called Great Tarary (1771, Encyclopedia Britannica)_​
> As we got many new users during the last months, some from Youtube, I think it's time to start a thread on this topic.
> 
> ...



Strange theory I have, but do you think the Tartarian people lived on a different brain wave frequency to other people?

For example, we live in a brain wave frequency of fear and worry and survival in the modern world.

Do you think they had technology to somehow turn off the survival part of the brain and live in abundance and harmony?


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## happenis (Feb 19, 2022)

I have gone through multiple books looking for mention of the Tartars. There is much conflicting information, but when people write about the 'tartars' more specifically the tartarian hordes, they often have a tone of disgust, often the way they eat and treat their horses. If interested I can find the source and link, but one of the writers appeared disgusted how they would split open the very horses that they raised. Horses that trusted them and the way they would make a complete mess of their homes and would eat the horse very savagely and with little to no cooking, and would often get intoxicated on some type of milk-alcohol.  They fed on a diet of mostly horse meat and would refuse any type of agriculture.

Of course we can not quite trust this information. Perhaps they were printed to paint these 'tartars' in a negative light, but I think it must be taken into consideration as a SERIOUS POSSIBILITY that these tartars were not the kind of people who had high technology and lived in harmony. I see multiple sources that say they were very warlike: violent, brutal, and ruthless. These hordes lived in movable tents. They were nomads and were always on the move.

I am not pushing veganism, but when I think of a people that live in harmony and has the ability to create these massive impressive structures, I picture a people that are very agriculture based. 

It is said that the armies of "Rome" did not come into the city. Perhaps these tartarian hordes lived very different lives than the tartars in the city. Tyre? And perhaps these city tartars were spiritual and lived in harmony, but I really think these people are not the spiritual structure builders that many youtube videos are speaking about. We need to look elsewhere for those people.


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## Zechariah_Murphy (Mar 17, 2022)

Here is a quote from the Oera Linda Book. The Book was translated published in 1876.
"Their wives have been mostly stolen from the Tartars. The Tartars are a branch of Finda's race," Fragmentary - Sandbach translation

To the Tartars just meaning territory may be inaccurate.


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## dreamtime (Mar 17, 2022)

Zechariah_Murphy said:


> The Tartars are a branch of Finda's race



I find it strange that the Oera Linda Book would mention the Tartars - they were always called the Scythians until recently. The Tartars appear in more or less reliable written sources starting in the 1600s or so. In my view this means the sources of the OLB are likely only a couple hundred years old.


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## iseidon (Mar 18, 2022)

Bitbybit said:


> Regarding the abanoned church, when i checked it on google maps. There are some villages nearby.
> Even small villages often got a church as well.. in other countires as well


I have a map showing such temples in the central (mostly Urals and Volga) part of Russia.


Razor2299 said:


> These Cossacks elected Yermak as the leader of their armed forces, and in 1582 Yermak set out with an army of 840 to attack the Khanate of Sibir. On *October 26, 1582*, Yermak and his soldiers overthrew Kuchum Khan's Tatar empire at Qashliq in a battle that marked the "conquest of Siberia.
> 
> There is a *painting* by Vasiliy Surikov from *1895* that depicts this event. As you see, Tatars (Tartars) are far from advanced civilization, if we can believe this painting. But it is interesting to study it anyway.


Doesn't the difference of 313 years embarrass you?

UPD.

Sorry. Mistake. The map shows not temples, but settlements where there are/were brick temples. I made it in order to get an overview of the settlement of people in the areas of interest to me.


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## Zechariah_Murphy (Mar 18, 2022)

dreamtime said:


> I find it strange that the Oera Linda Book would mention the Tartars - they were always called the Scythians until recently. The Tartars appear in more or less reliable written sources starting in the 1600s or so. In my view this means the sources of the OLB are likely only a couple hundred years old.


I would say older due to the fact OLB historical knowledge was not known for about 2000 years ago. but i will check the original manuscript to see if it is a translation error or not.


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## HollyHoly (Mar 19, 2022)

Im not an adherent of a 'golden age " kingdom, civilization  named Tartaria  or any other  such like  utopia with free energy tech ,healing tech, equal justice for all  where everything is perfect  and even the weather is  benign and friendly.  

​
All this Tartarian  confabulation  is is another rabbit hole  I have never found a rabbit in any rabbit holes I've jumped in. The truth is all ancient  empires were and have  been is  human sacrifice death  cults. You can't plow a field dig a hole or move earth in any way anywhere on this world without digging up  a dead body or sometimes  whole  populations of them.  Every empire past and present is founded on  tyranny  and elite hegemony. If Tartaria ever existed it was the same. It would appear that  all "Tartaria" is is a whitewashing of some anciently recent relics of  stupendous architecture . This architecture is always a warning sign of elite operations money magik  and human misery and impoverishment because the  inescapable fact is  these kinds of  cities and  buildings cant exist unless founded on the blood and tears of  the hapless citizens who inhabit them.  The inheritors simply place a meme into gullible populations and watch it blossom into a perfect  opportunity to mine all the wealth of a society. They can entirely wipe the memory of reality in one generation . Continuity of culture  is another subject ,I just ran across a new history channel I hadn't seen before and his video was titled Did Ancient Civilizations Have Ancient Civilizations.  So tell  me Tartarians where are the graves of the Tartarian kings? who were their leaders , who were their great scholars . what did they write? where are the Tartarian manuscripts ,films dvds or whatever .  We have echoes and layers of all kinds of former civilizations Sumerians Assyrians Minoans, Greeks ,Egyptians Aztecs Incas Moche, Hindu, Mughal, so where does Tartaria  come in?  What were these other civilizations  doing with it in response to it  ?  Do we  have diplomatic records ?  Or Just some free energy rumors and stately buildings.? When I was growing up  Tartars were horse  riding savage raiders of  settled people generally inhabiting the area of Russian plains all the way to Mongolia  Tartars Turkic tribesmen   .So when this Tartarian thing started being discussed I was and still am confused because last I checked horse riding raiders don't give e a rip about  free energy  or  healing vibrations  or building anything because they're  just here to rape your wives   steal your food  and horses, be back next year  around this time.  They're a sort of land based Pirates.  I guess I think Tartaria is mixing a bunch of disparit  fragments together,  wrong puzzle, wrong pieces.


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## trismegistus (Mar 19, 2022)

HollyHoly said:


> So tell me Tartarians where are the graves of the Tartarian kings? who were their leaders , who were their great scholars . what did they write? where are the Tartarian manuscripts ,films dvds or whatever . We have echoes and layers of all kinds of former civilizations Sumerians Assyrians Minoans, Greeks ,Egyptians Aztecs Incas Moche, Hindu, Mughal, so where does Tartaria come in? What were these other civilizations doing with it in response to it ? Do we have diplomatic records ?



SH Archive - Tartaria: formerly known as Scythia

Dragons and Vampires in Scythia: Lessons from a Strange Book

From Scythia to Maghreb: Beyond the Phantom Middle Ages


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## HollyHoly (Mar 19, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> SH Archive - Tartaria: formerly known as Scythia
> 
> Dragons and Vampires in Scythia: Lessons from a Strange Book
> 
> From Scythia to Maghreb: Beyond the Phantom Middle Ages


yup that would be my take my position so to speak but well you  can't reinvent the wheel every time you want to say  something  so Scythia was Scythia you can call it Tartaria  if you want  to but its Scythia isn't it?  Scythia itself just a region inhabited by Scythians   some of which may have been Tartars 


​


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## Conciousness_Arise (Mar 19, 2022)

HollyHoly said:


> Im not an adherent of a 'golden age " kingdom, civilization  named Tartaria  or any other  such like  utopia with free energy tech ,healing tech, equal justice for all  where everything is perfect  and even the weather is  benign and friendly.
> 
> ​
> All this Tartarian  confabulation  is is another rabbit hole  I have never found a rabbit in any rabbit holes I've jumped in. The truth is all ancient  empires were and have  been is  human sacrifice death  cults. You can't plow a field dig a hole or move earth in any way anywhere on this world without digging up  a dead body or sometimes  whole  populations of them.  Every empire past and present is founded on  tyranny  and elite hegemony. If Tartaria ever existed it was the same. It would appear that  all "Tartaria" is is a whitewashing of some anciently recent relics of  stupendous architecture . This architecture is always a warning sign of elite operations money magik  and human misery and impoverishment because the  inescapable fact is  these kinds of  cities and  buildings cant exist unless founded on the blood and tears of  the hapless citizens who inhabit them.  The inheritors simply place a meme into gullible populations and watch it blossom into a perfect  opportunity to mine all the wealth of a society. They can entirely wipe the memory of reality in one generation . Continuity of culture  is another subject ,I just ran across a new history channel I hadn't seen before and his video was titled Did Ancient Civilizations Have Ancient Civilizations.  So tell  me Tartarians where are the graves of the Tartarian kings? who were their leaders , who were their great scholars . what did they write? where are the Tartarian manuscripts ,films dvds or whatever .  We have echoes and layers of all kinds of former civilizations Sumerians Assyrians Minoans, Greeks ,Egyptians Aztecs Incas Moche, Hindu, Mughal, so where does Tartaria  come in?  What were these other civilizations  doing with it in response to it  ?  Do we  have diplomatic records ?  Or Just some free energy rumors and stately buildings.? When I was growing up  Tartars were horse  riding savage raiders of  settled people generally inhabiting the area of Russian plains all the way to Mongolia  Tartars Turkic tribesmen   .So when this Tartarian thing started being discussed I was and still am confused because last I checked horse riding raiders don't give e a rip about  free energy  or  healing vibrations  or building anything because they're  just here to rape your wives   steal your food  and horses, be back next year  around this time.  They're a sort of land based Pirates.  I guess I think Tartaria is mixing a bunch of disparit  fragments together,  wrong puzzle, wrong pieces.



I tend to agree. In my opinion, the closest anyone has come to explaining the reality of our reality, or the cross section of it that we are able to perceive, is in a 14 part documentary I found, "The Holographic Disclosure" by Secret Key Activator. All series parts are in the show notes.


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## yoxdo (Mar 20, 2022)

HollyHoly said:


> Im not an adherent of a 'golden age " kingdom, civilization  named Tartaria  or any other  such like  utopia with free energy tech ,healing tech, equal justice for all  where everything is perfect  and even the weather is  benign and friendly.
> 
> ​
> All this Tartarian  confabulation  is is another rabbit hole  I have never found a rabbit in any rabbit holes I've jumped in. The truth is all ancient  empires were and have  been is  human sacrifice death  cults. You can't plow a field dig a hole or move earth in any way anywhere on this world without digging up  a dead body or sometimes  whole  populations of them.  Every empire past and present is founded on  tyranny  and elite hegemony. If Tartaria ever existed it was the same. It would appear that  all "Tartaria" is is a whitewashing of some anciently recent relics of  stupendous architecture . This architecture is always a warning sign of elite operations money magik  and human misery and impoverishment because the  inescapable fact is  these kinds of  cities and  buildings cant exist unless founded on the blood and tears of  the hapless citizens who inhabit them.  The inheritors simply place a meme into gullible populations and watch it blossom into a perfect  opportunity to mine all the wealth of a society. They can entirely wipe the memory of reality in one generation . Continuity of culture  is another subject ,I just ran across a new history channel I hadn't seen before and his video was titled Did Ancient Civilizations Have Ancient Civilizations.  So tell  me Tartarians where are the graves of the Tartarian kings? who were their leaders , who were their great scholars . what did they write? where are the Tartarian manuscripts ,films dvds or whatever .  We have echoes and layers of all kinds of former civilizations Sumerians Assyrians Minoans, Greeks ,Egyptians Aztecs Incas Moche, Hindu, Mughal, so where does Tartaria  come in?  What were these other civilizations  doing with it in response to it  ?  Do we  have diplomatic records ?  Or Just some free energy rumors and stately buildings.? When I was growing up  Tartars were horse  riding savage raiders of  settled people generally inhabiting the area of Russian plains all the way to Mongolia  Tartars Turkic tribesmen   .So when this Tartarian thing started being discussed I was and still am confused because last I checked horse riding raiders don't give e a rip about  free energy  or  healing vibrations  or building anything because they're  just here to rape your wives   steal your food  and horses, be back next year  around this time.  They're a sort of land based Pirates.  I guess I think Tartaria is mixing a bunch of disparit  fragments together,  wrong puzzle, wrong pieces.



We think quite a like. A country in itself is just a meme to me also. Good to present it being freed from some oppressor in the form of revolution to unite the people then the raping and pillaging begins and never ends.


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## HollyHoly (Mar 21, 2022)

well Ill leave this here for you Tartarians   just an awesome amount of great info in this video 

​


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## DavidMalcolmCurrie (Mar 21, 2022)

I did a search on plant names, and many plants have the name "Tartarian" in them, not just the well known "Tartarian Cherry".  My research didn't go deep enough to know if all those plants originated in Asia, but many of them were found in North America currently as I recall - more research is needed on this subject.


Lightseeker said:


> One strong argument against the idea of Tartary/Tartaria is the fact that the huge, beautiful buildings people like to post in threads related to Tartary are usually located in Europe, where Tartaria was not located. This kind of architecture is not present in the huge landmass that used to be Tartary.
> 
> Still doesn't explain the mystery of the world's fairs.


Those huge, awesome buildings built for giant sized humanoids (human beings?) are all over the world, on every continent (I don't consider Antarctica a continent), although perhaps not in central Asia as you described - I'm not certain about that vast, mostly empty area.  But every continent has those incredible buildings, usually near the ocean or rivers, with the familiar domes, columns, towers, arches, etc.  I took a tour of the Capitol building in Olympia Washington, and it was clearly built for giants.  The front steps were too far apart for people our size, making it awkward to use them, I had to take one huge step, or two little steps.  When I reached the front door, I noticed how huge it was, for some reason I didn't know at the time.  Then on the inside all the ceilings and doorways were very high. Strangest of all, some of the rooms still had the old furniture in them, and obviously weren't presently being used for modern "government" purposes.  I say that because the tables and chairs were huge, I would feel like a little child sitting in those huge chairs at the huge tables!  At the time I didn't know about the previous civilization(s) of giants, and was confused about the size of the building and furniture, but now it makes sense. I don't believe it was "Tartaria" or "Great Tartary" that made those awesome buildings built for giants, and whoever built them was likely disappeared from history, by the satanic cabal that controls this world for satan.  I confess to believing in the Holy Bible, although I didn't start doing that until a few years ago (I'm 66), but I believe humanity's past which we are discussing at this site is explained in biblical scripture.


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## Daniel (Mar 21, 2022)

HollyHoly said:


> We have echoes and layers of all kinds of former civilizations Sumerians Assyrians Minoans, Greeks ,Egyptians Aztecs Incas Moche, Hindu, Mughal, so where does Tartaria  come in?  What were these other civilizations  doing with it in response to it  ?


I think you have it the wrong way round. We have no relics from any civilisations such as "Sumerians", as the "Sumerians" are 19th century fiction.

Meanwhile, Tartarian relics in North and Central America are called names like "Aztec" or "Mayan", Tartarian relics in South America are called "Incan"  Tartarian relics from present-day Iraq are called "Assyrian" or "Babylonian". Tartarian relics from Esst Asia are credited to eg the "Ming Dynasty" etc.

And these are scattered across thousands of years of false "History".

Most "former civilsations" that we learn about in History books never actually existed. And the artifacts that are credited to them in museums either belonged to another civilisation entirely, or they are modern fakes.


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## yoxdo (Mar 21, 2022)

Daniel said:


> I think you have it the wrong way round. We have no relics from any civilisations such as "Sumerians", as the "Sumerians" are 19th century fiction.
> 
> Meanwhile, Tartarian relics in North and Central America are called names like "Aztec" or "Mayan", Tartarian relics in South America are called "Incan"  Tartarian relics from present-day Iraq are called "Assyrian" or "Babylonian". Tartarian relics from Esst Asia are credited to eg the "Ming Dynasty" etc.
> 
> ...


That's a good way to throw everyone off including the useless mainstream historians. Just give it a different name and since its in a different area nobody notices it.


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## asatiger1966 (Apr 12, 2022)

matematik said:


> The main instigator of the Tartaria theory seems to have been Fomenko as far as I can tell. I always got the sense there is a Russian nationalist undercurrent to it, and Fomenko continues to be employed as a professor by Moscow State University, so clearly the Russian establishment approve of his theories.
> 
> Personally I think the promotion of the Tartaria theory suits current Russian geopolitical agendas, such as their Eurasianist agenda. The idea of reviving the Soviet Union (which is basically the aim of Eurasianism) has a bad rep with many people for obvious reasons, so I would think it suits them to paint a narrative that Russia being united with the Central Asian states and having close relations with China, etc, has a much more ancient historical precedent.
> 
> ...



Thoughtful, thanks


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## toneavii (Apr 14, 2022)

happenis said:


> Tartaria has become another psi-op
> 
> Enough truth to get those questioning interested, a portion of those becoming 'followers' and 'repeaters'
> 
> ...


I find it funny that those who don't know make outlandish claims.


dreamtime said:


> View attachment 18703
> _Tartary, a vast country in the northern parts of Asia... This is called Great Tarary (1771, Encyclopedia Britannica)_​
> As we got many new users during the last months, some from Youtube, I think it's time to start a thread on this topic.
> 
> ...


You have not gone deep enough.


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## CurvedBullet (Apr 14, 2022)

Lightseeker said:


> So how do they explain the presence of Tartarian tribes on North American soil?


What is a "Tartarian tribe" and what evidence is there of their presence in N. American soil? Because N. American includes Canada, the "U.S." and Mexico.


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## ThinkForYourself (Apr 15, 2022)

Lightseeker said:


> How can Tartary be a myth if it was a country with its own flag, coat of arms and language?
> 
> It even had a capitol city. Sellingham.


The Tartarians are the lost 10 tribes of Israel according to Marco Polo and book I believe is called "Purchace his Pilgrims" . The 10 tribes were imprisoned in a land called Azareth. Some of them were actually believers in Christ.


CurvedBullet said:


> What is a "Tartarian tribe" and what evidence is there of their presence in N. American soil? Because N. American includes Canada, the "U.S." and Mexico.


There are Many maps showing Most of North America under their control


HollyHoly said:


> well Ill leave this here for you Tartarians   just an awesome amount of great info in this video
> 
> ​



An excellent channel and great source of Truth in a time of great deception. Shout out to David Carrico and Jon Pounders!


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## Khdrd (Apr 16, 2022)

Tartaria was definitely not “Russia” and i don’t think Russians really even existed as a nation at that time. They probably were a bunch of tribes who were always controled by somone. Most likely Tartarians were a mix of many different ethnicities and races— mainly of “scythes” who later became turks. They were probably a lot more of other ethnicities that got wiped out, and it’s really hard to say for sure because it’s indeed a lost world. 
 But it’s really funny to me that Russia is trying to really turn this story around and make it seems like it was “Russia”. I think Russians have very deep generational  trauma, because they were marginalized group- basically slaves for a very very long time (I’m talking about 1 or 2 thousand years). They have been somewhat “free” for couple of centuries, but i think that’s why there is such a strong imperialistic desire coming from Russia. Some sort of unconscious revenge.  And also there is a strong slave mentality and really lack of understanding of a human and civilian freedom, that’s why they are always ruled by autocrats and usurpers.


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## Safranek (Apr 16, 2022)

Khdrd said:


> Tartaria was definitely not “Russia” and i don’t think Russians really even existed as a nation at that time. They probably were a bunch of tribes who were always controled by somone. Most likely Tartarians were a mix of many different ethnicities and races— mainly of “scythes” who later became turks. They were probably a lot more of other ethnicities that got wiped out, and it’s really hard to say for sure because it’s indeed a lost world.
> But it’s really funny to me that Russia is trying to really turn this story around and make it seems like it was “Russia”. I think Russians have very deep generational  trauma, because they were marginalized group- basically slaves for a very very long time (I’m talking about 1 or 2 thousand years). They have been somewhat “free” for couple of centuries, but i think that’s why there is such a strong imperialistic desire coming from Russia. Some sort of unconscious revenge.  And also there is a strong slave mentality and really lack of understanding of a human and civilian freedom, that’s why they are always ruled by autocrats and usurpers.


While I agree with your first paragraph, I don't come to the same conclusion as you regarding today's Russians.

They,  like the rest of Europeans have been psy-oped for generations via wars of deception, erasure of cultural histories including modification of languages. Its fairly evident to most Russians who do even a little research that their 'royal families' and their ruling elite have been and are of German descent (and by that I don't mean German blood but the aristocracies that subdued Germany).

The likely scenario is that the Russian people are remnants of the Scythians (later Tatars), at least the portion that wasn't eliminated by various genocides such as this one (just one example). I am sure the Scythians didn't speak Russian and Western Europeans didn't speak Latin originally. Genetic studies show the true relationship between peoples and logic would dictate that at least those with common genetics spoke the same language before they were subdued and their cultures altered and destroyed.



Khdrd said:


> They have been somewhat “free” for couple of centuries, but i think that’s why there is such a strong imperialistic desire coming from Russia. Some sort of unconscious revenge. And also there is a strong slave mentality and really lack of understanding of a human and civilian freedom, that’s why they are always ruled by autocrats and usurpers.


The imperialistic desire is not coming from the Russian people but from their ruling elite (and I don't mean their politician stooges). Regarding the slave mentality, unfortunately this has been bred into every nation including yours. Need I mention your 'fairly elected' president of recent for several terms, his international oligarch friends, his wealthy family being tied into the oligarch network, while the people of Kazakhstan just obediently watch, much like Russians, Europeans, Americans, etc.

The point is this. We've all been lied to, deceived in many ways, robbed by our 'leaders', and they were and are able to do this because they have us fight each other. There's no reason for this, we haven't done anything to each other by our own intent, we've been manipulated into it by a ruling elite via the age-old tactic of divide and conquer. 

If we can't get enough people to channel their aggression against the true aggressors, we'll continue to have more of the same, and worse.


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## iseidon (Apr 17, 2022)

Safranek said:


> Need I mention your 'fairly elected' president of recent for several terms, his international oligarch friends, his wealthy family being tied into the oligarch network, while the people of Kazakhstan just obediently watch, much like Russians, Europeans, Americans, etc.


I agree with most of what was said.

There is one nuance. The current president of Kazakhstan is no longer Nazarbayev, but Tokayev. This does not cancel the fact that the influence of Nazarbayev and his family in Kazakhstan is enormous. So, in essence, everything you said is correct.

I still can't understand people who think that the president is brought to "power" (or rather to the official position) by the people. The only difference is that in developed countries they know how to present this process beautifully. But there are problems with this as well. Biden came to power on bayonets (20+ thousand military men «defending» the White House from the "invasion" of the Trumpists). Trump was blocked on major social networks. So, even in the U.S. there are already problems with pushing the "president for the people" version.


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## toneavii (Apr 17, 2022)

Khdrd said:


> Tartaria was definitely not “Russia” and i don’t think Russians really even existed as a nation at that time. They probably were a bunch of tribes who were always controled by somone. Most likely Tartarians were a mix of many different ethnicities and races— mainly of “scythes” who later became turks. They were probably a lot more of other ethnicities that got wiped out, and it’s really hard to say for sure because it’s indeed a lost world.
> But it’s really funny to me that Russia is trying to really turn this story around and make it seems like it was “Russia”. I think Russians have very deep generational  trauma, because they were marginalized group- basically slaves for a very very long time (I’m talking about 1 or 2 thousand years). They have been somewhat “free” for couple of centuries, but i think that’s why there is such a strong imperialistic desire coming from Russia. Some sort of unconscious revenge.  And also there is a strong slave mentality and really lack of understanding of a human and civilian freedom, that’s why they are always ruled by autocrats and usurpers.


Read Ancient and modern Britons. Pg. 406 describes the tartarians as black, and ruthless.


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## Liberated Collective (Apr 17, 2022)

You Are correct, literally everything we have been given in history is a total lie, because I am pretty sure we just got taken over, and we are all men of renown, stuck in human form. The evidence is practically still surface level, meaning it happened in the last hundred years...


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## QuakerTheOat (Apr 17, 2022)

Khdrd said:


> Tartaria was definitely not “Russia”


You know this how?


Khdrd said:


> Most likely Tartarians were a mix of many different ethnicities and races


Sure. These type of 'multicultural' demographics are apparent in all successful societies. I mean, look at the wonder and beauty it has created in Detroit, London and Paris.


Khdrd said:


> But it’s really funny to me that Russia is trying to really turn this story around and make it seems like it was “Russia”. I think Russians have very deep generational trauma, because they were marginalized group- basically slaves for a very very long time (I’m talking about 1 or 2 thousand years). They have been somewhat “free” for couple of centuries, but i think that’s why there is such a strong imperialistic desire coming from Russia. Some sort of unconscious revenge. And also there is a strong slave mentality and really lack of understanding of a human and civilian freedom, that’s why they are always ruled by autocrats and usurpers.


From a historical perspective, what evidence do you have to support any of this? The Russian People are now and always have been some of the most intelligent and creative in the world. And I'm specifically *not* referring to the 'ruling class' there. The Russian people of today are enslaved by the same 'people' that the rest of us are. Some call them 'the deep state'. Some call them 'the elite'. Some call them 'TPTB'. I just call them Jews, because it annoys the s*it out of me when people dance around it.


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## Blackdiamond (Apr 17, 2022)

QuakerTheOat said:


> You know this how?
> 
> Sure. These type of 'multicultural' demographics are apparent in all successful societies. I mean, look at the wonder and beauty it has created in Detroit, London and Paris.
> 
> From a historical perspective, what evidence do you have to support any of this? The Russian People are now and always have been some of the most intelligent and creative in the world. And I'm specifically *not* referring to the 'ruling class' there. The Russian people of today are enslaved by the same 'people' that the rest of us are. Some call them 'the deep state'. Some call them 'the elite'. Some call them 'TPTB'. I just call them Jews, because it annoys the s*it out of me when people dance around it.



It seems like russia is a modern thing. It mirrors the US history story nearly 100%. 
Same expansion story. 
Us got rid of their german language where is russia it lives on in names and cities.


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## robgreen12345 (Apr 20, 2022)

They had free energy and building technology

Did they have mental health technology? Something based on stones and crystals that made you feel better?


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## Mavraki (Apr 28, 2022)

When I first heard of tartary, about one month ago, the first thing I thought could it possibly be true? History has been hidden from us, especially biblical history. Tartary is the lowest form of hell. That is reserved for Satan and the fallen angels. The children of the fallen angels are giants and this part of our history has not only NOT been taught in schools. It’s difficult to find the truth on the internet unless you search for aliens. It is not even mentioned in our churches. Upon seeing not only ancient structures but also gigantic ‘modern’ buildings and learning why they were built and how they were used these giants were in existence a hundred years ago. And are still in existence today. At least a remnant of them.


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## Will Scarlet (Apr 28, 2022)

Mavraki said:


> When I first heard of tartary, about one month ago, the first thing I thought could it possibly be true?



The vast majority of Tartarian believers do not equate it with *Tartarus*. To them Tartaria is a lost worldwide civilisation, whereas Tartarus, not Tartary, was the name given by the Greeks to the ruler of Hades and also to a specific area within Hades.



Mavraki said:


> this part of our history has not only NOT been taught in schools.



This would be classed as mythology in school curriculums, not history.



Mavraki said:


> Upon seeing not only ancient structures but also gigantic ‘modern’ buildings and learning why they were built and how they were used these giants were in existence a hundred years ago. And are still in existence today. At least a remnant of them.



Are you seriously suggesting that gigantic modern buildings have been and still are being built by giants?

Wikipedia defines the Tartarian Conspiracy Theory as follows:

"The theory about Great Tartaria first appeared in Russia, popularized by Nikolai Levashov, and in Anatoly Fomenko’s New chronology. In Russian pseudoscience, known for its nationalism, Tartaria is presented as the "real" name for Russia, which was maliciously "ignored" in the West. Since about 2016, conspiracy theories about the supposed lost empire of "Tartaria" have gained popularity on the English-speaking part of the Internet.

"The conspiracy is based on an alternative view of architectural history. Adherents suppose that demolished buildings such as the Singer Building, Penn Station, or the temporary grounds of the 1915's World's Fair were actually the buildings of a vast empire based in Tartary that has been suppressed from history. Sumptuously styled Gilded Age buildings are often held out as really having been built by the supposed Tartaria. Other buildings, such as the Great Pyramids and the White House are further held out as Tartarian buildings. The conspiracy only vaguely describes how such a supposedly advanced civilization which had reputedly achieved world peace could have fallen and been hidden.

"The idea that a "mud flood" wiped out much of the world and thus old buildings is common, supported by the fact that many buildings across the world have architectural elements like doors, windows and archways submerged many feet below "ground level" for no apparent reason.  World War I & II are cited as a way in which Tartaria was destroyed and hidden, reflecting the reality that the extensive bombing campaigns of World War II did destroy many historic buildings. The general evidence for the theory is that there are similar styles of building around the world, such as capital buildings with domes, or star forts.  Also many photographs from the turn of the 20th century appear to show deserted city streets in many capital cities across the world. When people do start to appear in the photographs there is a striking contrast between the low-tech horse & cart dwellers in the muddy streets and the elaborate, highly ornate stone mega-structures which tower above the inhabitants of the cities.

"Zach Mortice writing for Bloomberg believes that the theory reflects a cultural discontent with modernism, and a supposition that traditional styles are inherently good and modern styles are bad. He describes the theory as the QAnon of architecture."


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## trismegistus (Apr 28, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> Wikipedia defines the Tartarian Conspiracy Theory as follows:



Regardless of where you fall on the "tartarian conspiracy theory" it really amazes me how lazily the mainstream attempt to "debunk" using poor rhetorical tactics.

There are only two articles used as "evidence" to support the idea that "Tartaria" is a baseless conspiracy -

Inside the wild architecture conspiracy theory gaining traction online

Inside the ‘Tartarian Empire,’ the QAnon of Architecture



> The ancient empire of Tartaria is at the centre of a conspiracy theory that’s growing online, spread via YouTube and Reddit, where more than 14,000 people regularly engage with* what’s been called “the Qanon of architecture”.*



Circular logic used here - the only other place its been referred to as the Q-anon of architecture is in the second article.  This is a common tactic used in media to discredit - seed an earlier article into media and then refer to it as "truth" later in a second article.  The only people calling it Qanon architecture are the people who write debunking articles, what a surprise.



> Even old maps of our country from the early 19th century could be proof of the empire’s existence, because who named all of those places on the map? Tartaria fans believe it couldn’t possibly have been the puny Englishmen sent here to club seals.



While I don't know much about the origins of NZ, something tells me their explanation of "puny english clubbing seals" isn't the full story, either. 



> They weren’t part of an empire; they were residents of a massive region with many different cultures lumped together into “Tartary” by Europeans who didn’t care to understand the area beyond its association with Ghengis Khan.



Using the resources available on this site to learn more about Tartary - this has been shown to be a low effort throwaway response to Tartary as an expansive civilization.  Not only did they have flags, distinct borders on maps, kings, and large cities - they also likely had the same on the American continent.  However if your only "source" is encyclopedia Britannica I could see where this idea would come as a surprise to the author. 



> The Tartarian theory was originated by *pseudohistorians*, who combined a Russian fervor for their lost empire (“Tartaria” being the supposed real name of Russia) with an alternative historical chronology; basically, all known historical events happened in a much shorter period of time than we are told.



What exactly defines a pseudohistorian? Is it someone without a college degree in history?  Is it someone who has a historical theory that differs from the mainstream?  Anyone who sees holes in the logic of modern science when it comes to virology and epidemiology is called a _pseudoscientist - _but as has become evident these _pseudoscientific_ theories have proven to be more true than false.  This is why I believe the modern definition of this is "theories we think are wrong".  I would argue that NZ being founded by seal clubbers is pseudohistory - yet the cognitive dissonance does not seem to have registered with the author.  After all - the author of this article is not a historian - by that logic they are on the same playing field as myself - someone with no former historical training by the education industrial complex - their theories stand on the same ground as mine.  And if that is the case - the argument is to be judged on its merit alone - merit to which this author has provided little evidence for.



> Robin Aitken, an architectural historian based in Wellington, was blunt when approached for comment on “Tartarian” architectural features: the mud everywhere, he said, *was probably because of horses*. “I think horses can answer for a lot of this,” he said. “*Horse shit, horse hooves pounding the horse shit.*” Another factor contributing to the mudslide-looking streets of the 1860s, he said, is that *colonial cities were very slow to upgrade roads*. “In the beginning chuck up some kitset colonial buildings and wait until the street is so fucked that you need to do something about it,” he said.



Anyone who has actually examined photos of this time period know that the city streets of the old world were in reality very well kept, especially in the larger cities.  Horse shit was generally cleaned up and in some cases, recycled for methane gas fuel.  This cultural layer babble in no way shape or form explains the mystery of buried structures, yet is allowed to exist as a _pseudohistorical _explanation for this buildup. 

Regarding the slow buildup of roads - perhaps to some extent this is true, but it isn't the full story.  Many of these structures are so brilliantly designed and particular - yet when it came to actually engineering these structures they couldn't care less where they were erected.  So the _psuedohistorical _explanation is they were actually idiots who had no mind for civil engineering.



> The only culprits Tartaria believers can point to is a nebulous new world order; the government, or shadow government, or deep state.



It is interesting that in the same article that paints englishman as "puny colonials who only sought to club seals" also is hesitant to admit that the "Colonial" powers of the day were, in fact, a new world order government attempting to establish global dominance in the 19th century.  Even in the mainstream it is admitted that the colonial takeover involved the destruction of native history, and the lives of untold amounts of people.  Somehow making that connection to this theory is entirely lost on these _psuedohistorians.  _



> “Most, if not all of our cultural history has been fabricated. Racial identity was something the controllers brought in to divide us,” he said. “Tartaria was a worldwide civilisation that lived in harmony, and had access to technology that we could only dream of.”



This quote comes from a YTer the author decided to interview for this writeup - I have never heard of King Dave, nor watched any of their videos.  I believe this is his channel - certainly a modest one, with quite a few videos on this topic.  Certainly there are much larger channels on alternative history out there, but I suppose it made sense to reach out to someone who is local to NZ to write the story.  However - this view proffered by King Dave is indicative of exactly why this topic gets shit on by the mainstream.  Its not enough that a globe spanning civilization was destroyed over the course of hundreds of years - they were also the ancient world equivalent of hippies with spaceships.  Never has it been proven that Tartary was responsible for the ancient energy grid system that exists on the planet, and certainly there is no evidence these people lived in complete harmony.  



> Some Māori pā and redoubts, he said, are actually buried “star forts” (*Tartarian military bastions*).



Again - a complete overgeneralization and frankly disingenuous description of what starforts may have been in the past.  Apparently in the same breath of "tartary was living in harmony" they also have "military bastions".  A contradiction I'd imagine was put in on purpose in order to discredit this YTer.  That said - I also generally disagree with the theories put across by King Dave - a type of nuance that is entirely missing from this article.  Perhaps if this author spent less time on wikipedia and interviewing micro-niche YTers and more time looking into the sheer amount of available content on this site and even on other YT channels, they would understand there is a lot more to this story than appears.  That, of course, is wishful thinking at its finest.

TLDR: in an ironic twist, this site is actually better at “debunking tartaria” than the mainstream is.


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## iseidon (Apr 28, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> Regardless of where you fall on the "tartarian conspiracy theory" it really amazes me how lazily the mainstream attempt to "debunk" using poor rhetorical tactics.
> 
> There are only two articles used as "evidence" to support the idea that "Tartaria" is a baseless conspiracy -



Perhaps the mainstream is using a strategy of "the less said about something, the fewer people will know about it.

After all, if you start actively (on the part of official science and history) to debunk the myth of the "Tartarian" past, underground cities and other things, many people will start to study hundreds of cities for information about underground tunnels, passages, etc.

Then it won't be possible to build up theories about private cases (foreign engineers who build sewers; slave owners who use tunnels to secretly transport slaves from one place to another; hiking sites for the wealthy, etc.) in each individual city.


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## yoxdo (Apr 28, 2022)

I dont think tartaria is a myth, but I could see how it could be used to help speed up globalism. The last decade there has been a heavy push to get the public to hate nationalistic "values".  Defunding the police, heavy iconoclasm, all of those audit vids on youtube, just tons of stuff to tear at the fabric of the nation's structure. Revealing tartaria brings about a sympathy perhaps and therefore a disregard for the powers concealing the truth, it at least shows people theyve been lied to and by its current masters. According to Fomenko you have an empire that at one time was reaching globally that fell basically because of lack of communication amongst other things, it was fought against and carved up into nation states by those pesky "liberals". Once technology evolved to the point where communications are expounded and everyone can be tracked so now nation states can be torn apart and a global empire can proceed.
Too late to edit I made some mistakes there.


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## Will Scarlet (Apr 29, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> Regardless of where you fall on the "tartarian conspiracy theory" it really amazes me how lazily the mainstream attempt to "debunk" using poor rhetorical tactics.



I was quoting from Wikipedia, however, these are not necessarily my own views. I thought it would be interesting to see the mainstream take on the "conspiracy." I was also being lazy when contrasting Tartarus with Tartary. Please don't shoot the messenger. 

Every meme has pinch of truth.



iseidon said:


> After all, if you start actively (on the part of official science and history) to debunk the myth of the "Tartarian" past, underground cities and other things, many people will start to study hundreds of cities for information about underground tunnels, passages, etc.
> 
> Then it won't be possible to build up theories about private cases (foreign engineers who build sewers; slave owners who use tunnels to secretly transport slaves from one place to another; hiking sites for the wealthy, etc.) in each individual city.



That's counterintuitive.


----------



## iseidon (Apr 29, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> I was quoting from Wikipedia, however, these are not necessarily my own views. I thought it would be interesting to see the mainstream take on the "conspiracy." I was also being lazy when contrasting Tartarus with Tartary. Please don't shoot the messenger.
> 
> Every meme has pinch of truth.
> 
> ...


What's counterintuitive?

Now the history of many cities (and sometimes countries) is built on the fact that wonderful foreign skilled people (engineers, builders, criminals, religious, etc.) came from abroad and built incredible buildings, sewers, underground passages, etc.

If one studies thousands of cities and sees that each city has its own "private" or "special" case, one might ask oneself the question. What are the special and particular cases? Isn't there a unified system that logically explains such "specials" all over the world?

In order to avoid such (and other) questions, official science does not raise the topic of Tartary, which contradicts the national and narrow territorial dogmas that now prevail.


----------



## Will Scarlet (Apr 29, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> Not only did they have flags, distinct borders on maps, kings, and large cities - they also likely had the same on the American continent.



In this case, of what race were the American Tartarians? Were they indigenous or were they the same race as the Russian Tartarians? Did the native American Tartarians invade the Chinese and Russian Tartarys? What is the definition of a Russian Tartarian - were they all of the same race? Were the Chinese Tartarians the same race as the Russian ones? How's about the New Zealand Tartarians - how are they related to any of the others? Did all of these Tartarians speak the same language?


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## Blackdiamond (Apr 29, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> In this case, of what race were the American Tartarians? Were they indigenous or were they the same race as the Russian Tartarians? Did the native American Tartarians invade the Chinese and Russian Tartarys? What is the definition of a Russian Tartarian - were they all of the same race? Were the Chinese Tartarians the same race as the Russian ones? How's about the New Zealand Tartarians - how are they related to any of the others? Did all of these Tartarians speak the same language?



? 

Anyway. Sibir natives have similar features as north american natives. Because they came from the sibir area or the other way around. All northern people from the white sea to northern china have had the same genetics in archeological finds*. 
South americans are totally different kind of people. Make of it what you will.


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## Safranek (Apr 29, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> What is the definition of a Russian Tartarian - were they all of the same race? Were the Chinese Tartarians the same race as the Russian ones?


According to extensive research on the Huns by Modi, Jivanji Jamshedji , the Tartars were Huns. And not only the Tartars but also some of the Persians, Ephtalites, Indians, Armenians, Uzbeghs, etc. all come from a common origin.

Source:   The Early History of the Huns and their Inroads in India and Persia

This article well deserves its own thread, if someone has time and interest, it would certainly open up an additional path of research in a different direction. If his assessment is correct, that would also indicate a common linguistical basis at some point in time.

It would also be interesting to see how much of the most recent genetic research matches this historical record.


----------



## trismegistus (Apr 29, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> I was quoting from Wikipedia, however, these are not necessarily my own views. I thought it would be interesting to see the mainstream take on the "conspiracy." I was also being lazy when contrasting Tartarus with Tartary. Please don't shoot the messenger.



Another reason why this site has so much value is because we have people like you who actually ask the right questions about theories and use a reasonable amount of evidence to support their point.  My statement was not pointed at you in the slightest.  



Will Scarlet said:


> In this case, of what race were the American Tartarians? Were they indigenous or were they the same race as the Russian Tartarians? Did the native American Tartarians invade the Chinese and Russian Tartarys?



This is sort of a chicken versus egg question.  There is some supporting evidence in the scientific lexicon that supports the haplogroup similarities between Siberian/Tartar and Native America

Haplogroup Q-M242 - Wikipedia

SH Archive - Inca Empire capital - Cusco in 1530s. Did it look European?






As to which direction these arrows flow...that could certainly be up to interpretation.  The standard model would say that the migration reflects the movement shown above - but as to what metrics they use to determine the movement may be based off standard models of relative dating and assumptions in history that may or may not be correct.  

There is also the matter of history discussed in the early 19th century - from American Antiquities and Discoveries in the West, 1832










Also see: SH Archive - Fou-Sang & 1870s board game: Voyage from New York to San Francisco upon the Union Pacific Railroad

It goes without saying that your mileage may vary, depending on how much "truth" one would believe this research actually contains.  Even if we operate under the mainstream assumption that "Tartary" is simply a colonial placeholder for areas of the world they did not understand - the fact is there were distinct references of both Chinese Tartars and post Scythia Russian/Siberian Tartars in early America.  

Furthermore, as I've pointed out in this thread  the Scythians and the Mound Builder race of north america share the trait of constructing mounds for purposes that have only been speculated on, but have been noted to contain burials of native americans and other artifacts (again - whether or not this was their original _purpose _is, in my opinion, still up for debate).



Will Scarlet said:


> How's about the New Zealand Tartarians - how are they related to any of the others?



Perhaps this last one was a bit tongue in cheek on your part...as you may have gleaned from my posts I don't explicitly connect the Tartars I reference above with the "tartarian structures" YTers like King Dave speak of.  The global unified architectural style is a separate issue all on its own, that shouldn't be lumped in with the Tartar question.  That said - if the Tartars figured out how to get over to North America I'd imagine they would have little issue navigating to New Zealand as well, but that is purely supposition.
​


----------



## Will Scarlet (Apr 30, 2022)

Blackdiamond said:


> Make of it what you will.



Nonsense maybe?



Safranek said:


> the Tartars were Huns



So, Tartaria was a worldwide civilisation comprised of Huns? What race were the Huns?



Safranek said:


> also some of the Persians, Ephtalites, Indians, Armenians, Uzbeghs, etc. all come from a common origin.



So were they Tartarians as well? Therefore, anyone who didn't share that "common origin" wasn't Tartarian? Did these Tartarians invade China and the Americas?



trismegistus said:


> Perhaps this last one was a bit tongue in cheek on your part



Finally, someone with a sense of humour!  Yes and no really. What I meant to convey was that this Tartarian theory is what... 7 years old now and yet it hasn't progressed one iota. There's still no agreement amongst Tartarian advocates about who the Tartars were, or where they were, or when they were - as can be seen from the replies above.

Regarding haplotypes and genetic studies - I'm afraid I lost all faith in such things back in the early 2000's when they started being used to support certain agendas - I don't think they're any more reliable than a PCR test. That's why my question was about races as in tribes or ethnic groups. Perhaps I should have asked if all Tartarians have almond eyes?

I have expressed my opinion about the Lost Tribes of Israel on many occasions - it's a legend that has no basis in fact, only in faith. This is, of course, my own personal opinion based upon research, but that doesn't necessarily make it right.



trismegistus said:


> The global unified architectural style is a separate issue all on its own, that shouldn't be lumped in with the Tartar question.



And yet, so many comments and posts on this forum state that very issue as being the overall definitive proof that the one-world civilisation of Tartaria is an undeniable fact...? ...¿ even. So, do you see what I mean about the 7 year old legacy of inconsistency and disagreement about Tartaria even amongst its proponents?

Perhaps it would be easier if I asked where Tartaria wasn't? Who were not Tartarians? ...but then it wouldn't be a worldwide civilisation, would it?


----------



## trismegistus (Apr 30, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> So, do you see what I mean about the 7 year old legacy of inconsistency and disagreement about Tartaria even amongst its proponents?



you won’t find someone more frustrated with this issue than me. I can’t point to exact threads and replies, but there were still a fair amount of people back on the old site who were making this distinction. The problem is instead of this discussion being amplified, the meme magic version of advanced tartaria spread.

I find the question of tartaria only somewhat interesting - it is a tiny drop of information in a much bigger question of who we are and why we are here. There may be some answers in Tartaria, but after beating our heads against it for years it’s a tree that yields little fruit. Why it’s so amplified in the discussion of the old world is beyond me. Perhaps a question for the CIA…

i do think it’s an undeniable fact that the planet has a global technological fingerprint in the form of buildings, canals, and other terraforming. Whether this was one unified nation, or how long ago this existed is beyond me at this time.


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## QuakerTheOat (Apr 30, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> The global unified architectural style is a separate issue all on its own, that shouldn't be lumped in with the Tartar question.


It certainly is a separate issue. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest that if we were to dig back through the 'History of the Tartarian Global Theory' that we would find that whomever was among the first to associate these two things is/was a disinfo actor/group associated with other hollow theories. A common method used for theories to take root is: several 'people/groups' post similar narratives based on truth on some of the more popular platforms, then more of these 'people/groups' begin to popularize and 'like' the narrative and *poof* - a theory is born. Theories like this are *glamorous*. They present an almost irresistible shiny object. The 'people' behind things like this are literal masters of the human psyche and this is how they roll.


trismegistus said:


> I find the question of tartaria only somewhat interesting - it is a tiny drop of information in a much bigger question of who we are and why we are here. There may be some answers in Tartaria, but after beating our heads against it for years it’s a tree that yields little fruit. Why it’s so amplified in the discussion of the old world is beyond me. Perhaps a question for the CIA…


Ah! The CIA.  They report to Avril Haines the Director of National Intelligence. Check out her 'Early Life and Education' lol. This information is critical for the understanding of the 'who' that create these hollow theories. Every. Single. Time.



Will Scarlet said:


> What I meant to convey was that this Tartarian theory is what... 7 years old now and yet it hasn't progressed one iota. There's still no agreement amongst Tartarian advocates about who the Tartars were, or where they were, or when they were - as can be seen from the replies above. I have expressed my opinion about the Lost Tribes of Israel on many occasions - it's a legend that has no basis in fact, only in faith. This is, of course, my own personal opinion based upon research, but that doesn't necessarily make it right.


To me, these are examples of 'theories' with evidence of what I posted above: a hollow theory propped up by both shills and the star-struck innocent. These 'people' use faith as a weapon; creating false narratives that can never be proven - ever - without it. What makes them self-sustaining are groups of people that have drank the kool-aid trying with every fiber of their being to get unbelievers into the fold because if they can 'convert' even 1 person into being a 'believer', it reinforces their faith as truth. And if they can convert more than 1, well the, God must be on their side.



Will Scarlet said:


> Regarding haplotypes and genetic studies - I'm afraid I lost all faith in such things back in the early 2000's when they started being used to support certain agendas - I don't think they're any more reliable than a PCR test. That's why my question was about races as in tribes or ethnic groups. Perhaps I should have asked if all Tartarians have almond eyes?


If there's one piece of this Tartarian global theory that totally fits, it is that 'Tartary' became a multicultural empire and either imploded/destroyed itself, or was easily conquered by the current regime. History repeats itself. All you have to do is look around you no matter where you are to see it happening - possibly again. 'Studies' are no longer studies. 'Science' is no longer science. 'Facts' can be 'racist'. It's pure madness.


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## EJDoyle (Apr 30, 2022)

dreamtime said:


> View attachment 18703
> _Tartary, a vast country in the northern parts of Asia... This is called Great Tarary (1771, Encyclopedia Britannica)_​
> As we got many new users during the last months, some from Youtube, I think it's time to start a thread on this topic.
> 
> ...


Just like so much these days, nit picking and obfuscation of the bigger story, be it the pandemic lie or political theater, this give and take about Tartary is blowing smoke over the FACTS, not opinions, that SOMETHING is very wrong with history as it has been told. To waste so much time on this Tartarian stuff is keeping the reality of a mud flood or two, the manipulation of "time" and a unified world peaceful expression from the spot light.

I agree about the youtube nonsense that shows up. When the Mandela Effect was hot just before the planedemic (2019) there were dozens of goof ball sites all copying each other in the way of that generation brought up on a cartoon reality and lack of a real moral compass. I was in the SF Bay Area in the 60's when the same sort of tactics were done with the creation of the "hippies" demeaning the true explorers of consciousness through sacred teacher plants.

It is of great importance to have adults in the room these days as we are dealing with a dumbed down, cliche' driven population of arrested adolescent "kids" lost in their clown world. The controllers are brilliant but psychopathic and have a lot of "fires" to put out once again, the conversation of possible nuclear war is another way to create fear and redirect focus.

We are on to something VERY significant and IMO we should make a big attempt to document and explore and most of all work together to help lift the curtain.


QuakerTheOat said:


> It certainly is a separate issue. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest that if we were to dig back through the 'History of the Tartarian Global Theory' that we would find that whomever was among the first to associate these two things is/was a disinfo actor/group associated with other hollow theories. A common method used for theories to take root is: several 'people/groups' post similar narratives based on truth on some of the more popular platforms, then more of these 'people/groups' begin to popularize and 'like' the narrative and *poof* - a theory is born. Theories like this are *glamorous*. They present an almost irresistible shiny object. The 'people' behind things like this are literal masters of the human psyche and this is how they roll.
> 
> Ah! The CIA.  They report to Avril Haines the Director of National Intelligence. Check out her 'Early Life and Education' lol. This information is critical for the understanding of the 'who' that create these hollow theories. Every. Single. Time.
> 
> ...


Well said. I would offer that "facts" when looked at with a true scientific eye far outweigh the rumors, etc. Cremo and Thompson's seminal work on Forbidden Archeology or the work of Randal Carlson and Graham Hancock on the Younger Dryas Ice Age or Gobekli Tepi discovery clearly shows skeletal and funereal evidence of sentient life here MILLIONS of years ago. So in essence, the grand architecture still standing is wonderful evidence, still fresh and explore-able. Very exciting time to be alive hey?


----------



## Safranek (Apr 30, 2022)

EJDoyle said:


> We are on to something VERY significant and IMO we should make a big attempt to document and explore and most of all work together to help lift the curtain.


This is exactly what what needs to be done if we want to make REAL headway into this topic.



Will Scarlet said:


> So, Tartaria was a worldwide civilisation comprised of Huns? What race were the Huns?


Let's not jump the gun. I did not mention worldwide civilization. However, there seems to be ample evidence in primary sources that the Tartarians were Huns, but only one or some tribes of them.

See excerpt from the source I quoted in my previous post, which I think is a pretty important source as it comes from mostly non-European chroniclers, which we have not come across yet, to the best of my knowledge (at least I haven't).



> "In the few centuries before and after Christ, there existed the following great kingdoms :
> 
> I China in the East,
> 2 Rome in the West,
> ...


... and


> In or about the 5th century after Christ, the Huns began to lose or *Huns began to be known as Turks, and, later on, as Mongols or Moguls*. lost their original name of Hiongnou or Huns. *One of their hordes or tribes, which was known as the Turks becoming very powerful, gave its name to the whole Hun nation*. So, the Huns began then to be known among the neighboring nations by the name of Turks. Later on, when Chengiz Khan, the chief of the horde or tribe of the Mongols or Moguls became very powerful, his tribe gave its name to the whole nation. *The whole Tartar nation then began to be spoken of as the Mongols or Moguls.*
> 
> Just as one and the same river receives different names in the different parts of the country, through which it runs from its source to its mouth. *so, the one and the same nation, the Hiongnou or Huns received different names during its progress from the time of its origin up to now, and from its original home to different countries.* The horde or the tribe of the Turks who gave its name to the Huns later on, was called TouKioue by the Chinese and Turks by the other adjoining nations.


... and


> Among the above named four great kingdoms, Persia was one, with whom the Huns had frequent quarrels a and fights. *Under their different names of Huns, Turks, Haetalites, Khazars, &c*., they were in frequent wars, one may say' in continuous wars, with the Persians.


... and


> We saw above, that the Hun had, at first, their home in the steppes of Central Asia, They moved eastward towards China. They moved westward and divided themselves into two branches, one towards the valley of the Oxus and the other to that of the Volga. The division, which went towards the valley of the Volga, invaded, in about 375 A.D., Eastern Europe and drove before them the Goths (who also were an offshoot of some early Hun stock) , who thus driven, invaded the dominions of the Roma n emperors, fighting with them, in what
> is known as the Gothic War, in which Emperor Valens lost his life in 378 A. D. The Huns, with Attila at their head, harassed the Roman Empire, both, the Western at Ravenna and the Eastern at Constantinople. Attila died in 453 A.D. *His Hunnic Empire was broken by an other branch of their original stock in the North*. The invasion and ravages of this Hunnic division in Europe were quick in their result, and did not continue long; but in the case of the inroads of the other division, that in Asia itself, they were slow and lasted long .



So if we can trust any of those sources any more than the European or Roman ones, we can deduce that what we are certainly faced with is a written history where the names of the 'players' were continuously changed.  Additionally, we can see that many of these 'adversaries' were of common stock.

I would like to add here that Modi's assessment based on the primary sources he used is a fair assessment based upon them. However, I'm not in complete agreement with the whole narrative as - if we read the entirety of his paper - we are shown that there are significant discrepancies in the description of the events, their outcomes and even chronologies by the various chroniclers. I still feel this paper is important as it may contain pieces of the puzzle to the answers we seek.

Additonally, from here:



> A major source of information on steppe warfare from the time of the Huns comes from the 6th-century _Strategikon_, which describes the warfare of "*Dealing with the Scythians, that is, Avars, Turks, and others whose way of life resembles that of the Hunnish peoples*."


For those interested, the whole WP article is worth a read for some background.

So what we have according to 'official' history (as described in WP and oozing contradictions) for the area now talked about as Tartaria:

Scythians


> *The Scythians arrived in the Pontic Steppe in the 8th and 7th centuries BCE* as part of a significant movement of the nomadic peoples of the Eurasian Steppe.


Of course, nomadic peoples carry around their foundries to make stuff like this in their spare time.





.... and we have,

The Huns



> The Huns were a nomadic people.
> ...
> The origins of the Huns and their links to other steppe people remain uncertain:[6] scholars generally agree that they originated in Central Asia but disagree on the specifics of their origins. *Classical sources assert that they appeared in Europe suddenly around 370*.


Gotta love them classical sources, where people just appear suddenly, like magic.

Strangely, like the Scythians, they were nomadic people who also and liked to carry around their foundries and make stuff like this in their spare time:





 And we have the Tatars



> The active use of the toponym (place name) can be traced from the 13th to the 19th centuries.


Thanks to our industrious 'historians' we now have a page on Tartary where the conspiracy theory section is bigger than the actual historical article about a territory much more in our very recent history and taking up a good portion of the world map. I think they REALLY don't want people to start investigating into that direction.

So we have these 3 'peoples' occupying that region for over 2k years where none of the anthropological, archeological, linguistic, or genetic information matches hardly ANY of the historical narrative. As is the case with other parts of the world.

The logical conclusion would be that the core of the region would have been inhabited by the same 'peoples' through that whole time period. Nobody disappeared and nobody suddenly appeared. They were divided and conquered and almost successfully erased from history.


----------



## EJDoyle (Apr 30, 2022)

Safranek said:


> This is exactly what what needs to be done if we want to make REAL headway into this topic.
> 
> 
> Let's not jump the gun. I did not mention worldwide civilization. However, there seems to be ample evidence in primary sources that the Tartarians were Huns, but only one or some tribes of them.
> ...


Your assumptions and "facts" like many things these days can be overwhelming diversion from the points made, word salad that can obfuscate or divert the discussion. Indeed history is important and the goal of this blog, but...
1. We have skeletal and funereal evidence of sentient life forms from 300+ MILLION years ago, perhaps as much as 600 million years.
2. Gobekli Tepe and other recent discoveries indicate a highly advance culture with knowledge of astrology, astronomy, physics, agriculture skill and more from a realatively recent few thousands of years ago in comparison.
3. There is evidence of a multiple meteor strike including Northern US and Canada melting an estimated 2 mile high glacier raising the ocean level 400 feet which co-insides with the religious myth of Noah and other myths.
4. For various reasons people have been lying, hiding, etc. the true history of everything from the pyramids, mound building to the similarity of Ayahuasca formulas found on different continents at a time when there was no international travel and from the thousands of plants to be experimented with. The battle of the 60's was about limiting humans exploration of consiousness.

All the various historical tribes and groups named just confuse the facts that "SOMETHING" happened quite recently of major significance. A liquifying of much of the planet's "dirt" burying and affecting incredibly sound, and attractive buildings and smaller ones also. So IMHO it is more important to identify just WHAT happened and WHO did it rather then get lost in unnecessary discussions about tribal cultures minutia.


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## Safranek (May 1, 2022)

EJDoyle said:


> Your assumptions and "facts" like many things these days can be overwhelming diversion from the points made, word salad that can obfuscate or divert the discussion.


Such as this post of yours which is off-topic and derailing the thread from the OP.



EJDoyle said:


> Indeed history is important and the goal of this blog


Indeed it is, hence the name StolenHistory.



EJDoyle said:


> So IMHO it is more important to identify just WHAT happened and WHO did it rather then get lost in unnecessary discussions about tribal cultures minutia.


As important as that is, the reason we have threads on certain topics is to create focus on them by gathering RELEVANT info.

Additionally, 

Your 4 points do nothing to clarify the matter in a thread regarding the 'Existence of Tartaria'.

If you wish to talk about those subjects, post them in their appropriate thread, or if one doesn't exist, create an original thread for it.

But if you're going to make a claim such as this one:



EJDoyle said:


> 1. We have skeletal and funereal evidence of sentient life forms from 300+ MILLION years ago, perhaps as much as 600 million years.



then the burden of proof is upon you to show evidence regarding how something has been validly dated into that time-frame, but NOT in this thread.


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## QuakerTheOat (May 1, 2022)

EJDoyle said:


> 1. We have skeletal and funereal evidence of sentient life forms from 300+ MILLION years ago, perhaps as much as 600 million years.
> 2. Gobekli Tepe and other recent discoveries indicate a highly advance culture with knowledge of astrology, astronomy, physics, agriculture skill and more from a realatively recent few thousands of years ago in comparison.
> 3. There is evidence of a multiple meteor strike including Northern US and Canada melting an estimated 2 mile high glacier raising the ocean level 400 feet which co-insides with the religious myth of Noah and other myths.
> 4. For various reasons people have been lying, hiding, etc. the true history of everything from the pyramids, mound building to the similarity of Ayahuasca formulas found on different continents at a time when there was no international travel and from the thousands of plants to be experimented with. The battle of the 60's was about limiting humans exploration of consiousness.


You should start a thread for this. Looks interesting.


EJDoyle said:


> So IMHO it is more important to identify just WHAT happened and WHO did it rather then get lost in unnecessary discussions about tribal cultures minutia.


I agree that it's more important to identify the 'who' - although, for me it's really more of a conformation than a discovery of their identity. Then again, it can also be said that if we can understand those tribal cultures, we can have a really good idea of the who caused it and the what happened.


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## EJDoyle (May 1, 2022)

Safranek said:


> Such as this post of yours which is off-topic and derailing the thread from the OP.
> 
> 
> Indeed it is, hence the name StolenHistory.
> ...


Apparently I am ignorant of all the nuances and rules here. I just talk from the heart and after years of all the shills, trolls, and such on the political blogs I just put my thoughts out there. Sorry if I have stepped on toes or been inappropriate. I have a 50+ year history of counter culture and social and political activism, having been shot at, phone tapped, tailed and more and I can be heavy handed. Probably best if I just don't come back.


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## trismegistus (May 1, 2022)

EJDoyle said:


> Apparently I am ignorant of all the nuances and rules here. I just talk from the heart and after years of all the shills, trolls, and such on the political blogs I just put my thoughts out there. Sorry if I have stepped on toes or been inappropriate



What you spoke of in your previous posts related to tartary as a psyop is welcome here, on this thread. The issue is your later points regarding the YDIH (Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis) and the global civilization spoken of by those like Hancock are interesting, but the conversation does not need to go there in this particular thread. Strangely enough we don’t have a thread on that here (and I have personally met and gone on one of Randall Carlsons scabland tours to show exactly what you describe), but in any case try not to take offense when we are recommending conversations to stay in their lane related to the topic.


----------



## Safranek (May 1, 2022)

EJDoyle said:


> Apparently I am ignorant of all the nuances and rules here. I just talk from the heart and after years of all the shills, trolls, and such on the political blogs I just put my thoughts out there. Sorry if I have stepped on toes or been inappropriate. I have a 50+ year history of counter culture and social and political activism, having been shot at, phone tapped, tailed and more and I can be heavy handed. Probably best if I just don't come back.


As you noticed, I liked and quoted your comment that pertained to the content of the thread, but without those rules and as you say 'nuances', it would be impossible to keep discussions coherent on any blog, political or historical, and it applies to all of us. As you can see, your experience and sincere input is appreciated when in context with the purpose of a thread.


----------



## Will Scarlet (May 1, 2022)

Safranek said:


> Let's not jump the gun. I did not mention worldwide civilization.



This thread is about Tartaria, which is promoted as having been a worldwide civilisation, so if I am jumping the gun then perhaps you are dodging the bullets.



Safranek said:


> See excerpt from the source I quoted in my previous post, which I think is a pretty important source as it comes from mostly non-European chroniclers, which we have not come across yet,



I note that this source was written or 'read' right in the middle of World War One. So it's a paper about 'The Hun' which seems to be intent on debunking the Kaiser's claim to descent from those ancient warriors. Could there be a conflict of interests there? Have you read the ancient sources that this paper is based upon?



Safranek said:


> The logical conclusion would be that the core of the region would have been inhabited by the same 'peoples' through that whole time period. Nobody disappeared and nobody suddenly appeared. They were divided and conquered and almost successfully erased from history.



So the claim that Tartaria was a worldwide civilisation is a myth then. Is that also part of your conclusion?


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## EJDoyle (May 1, 2022)

Safranek said:


> As you noticed, I liked and quoted your comment that pertained to the content of the thread, but without those rules and as you say 'nuances', it would be impossible to keep discussions coherent on any blog, political or historical, and it applies to all of us. As you can see, your experience and sincere input is appreciated when in context with the purpose of a thread.


Thanks for your input. I am obviously out of my comfort zone with a lack of much pop culture/tech, etc. experience...no SMART phone, no TV for 50 years, etc. but rather a life of pragmatic experience with tribal cultures, writing music, etc. So I have missed the natural evolutionary progress of most from books to digital reality. I don't know how to play with others I guess. I'll just come lurk a bit now and then.


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## Safranek (May 1, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> This thread is about Tartaria, which is promoted as having been a worldwide civilisation, so if I am jumping the gun then perhaps you are dodging the bullets.


It is not being promoted as a world-wide civilization by all adherents. There's only a 'certain' group that seems to insist on that idea.

However, there is a proposed actual linguistic link being studied by some linguists which - if correct - shows a correlation between the languages of the NA Indians and Siberian tribes. This obviously would not have occurred within the 'Tartaria' time-frame.

I don't want to steer the thread off-topic so I will not go further into this as it has no relation to Tartaria beyond showing a common element in the origin of both those languages (NA Indian Lanape and the Turk, Mongol, Hun language base).

And BTW, I like the choice of idiom in response to mine. 



Will Scarlet said:


> I note that this source was written or 'read' right in the middle of World War One. So it's a paper about 'The Hun' which seems to be intent on debunking the Kaiser's claim to descent from those ancient warriors. Could there be a conflict of interests there? Have you read the ancient sources that this paper is based upon?


The sources quoted in that article have nothing to do with Germany other than a couple of brief mentions as it focuses entirely on the influence and interactions of the Huns in relation to the four empires, based on the sources given.

No, I have not had the time to actually look up and read the books being sourced, I will make the effort to do so to see if they can be found in English though.



Will Scarlet said:


> So the claim that Tartaria was a worldwide civilisation is a myth then. Is that also part of your conclusion?


I personally do not adhere to the claim that Tartaria was a world-wide civilization.  The reason for this is that so far, I have not found any credible sources that would mention Tartarians as anything other than foreigners and their language as a foreign language with respect to America.

I do strongly suspect that at least a part of the American natives do have links to the area we call Tartaria, Scythia, Siberia, Pontic Steppes, etc. but my hunch is that this link goes farther back than the time-period attributed to the area as Tartaria, maybe even farther back than when it was called Scythia.

That is my conclusion based on evidence I have studied so far, but my current assessment will certainly change if additional valid information is presented to the contrary.


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## Gabriel (May 1, 2022)

iseidon said:


> Perhaps the mainstream is using a strategy of "the less said about something, the fewer people will know about it.


That’s exactly it, just a tried and true programming technique at work. Calling it “Qanon architecture” avoids directing people towards interesting subjects by conflating these completely different ideas.  Perhaps instead the casual headine reader makes a judgement and avoids the issue on reflex.  If they said “flat earth antivaxxer building” it would be the same, just  very ridiculous sounding.


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## Will Scarlet (May 2, 2022)

Gabriel said:


> That’s exactly it, just a tried and true programming technique at work. Calling it “Qanon architecture” avoids directing people towards interesting subjects by conflating these completely different ideas.  Perhaps instead the casual headine reader makes a judgement and avoids the issue on reflex.  If they said “flat earth antivaxxer building” it would be the same, just  very ridiculous sounding.



So that's why the mainstream spells it all out in Wikipedia then?

The Tartarian Conspiracy Theory - Wikipedia



Safranek said:


> It is not being promoted as a world-wide civilization by all adherents. There's only a 'certain' group that seems to insist on that idea.



I think I disagree with that. There's a Tartarian Meme that began as a reaction to Sylvie Ivanova's 'Survivors of Atlantis' series on YouTube, some 7 or 8 years ago. Like all memes it contains some elements of 'truth', or shall we say 'likely facts', but above all it contains answers to questions you never knew existed and reveals lies you didn't know you hadn't been told. The meme came as a package combining the worldwide civilisation, the Tartarian architecture pandemic and a Lost Empire that was crushed or mudflooded and erased from history. It even came with the evil nasty bad guys for everyone to blame it all on.

 In Sylvie's version it was the survivors of Atlantis who took refuge from the "Parasites" in the areas known as Greater and Lesser Tartaria - modern day Russia. The 'Mudflood' was postulated as being the cause of Atlantis' demise being a weapon of the Parasites, which could also create Rockfloods. The survivors were responsible for the exceptional architecture found there and anywhere else they refugeed.. refuged... took refuge. The Parasites persecuted the Survivors who fled eastwards, ending up in Japan I think it was.

The meme ignored all of these details from Sylvie. The Survivors of Atlantis disappeared from the equation. They were replaced by the noble Tartarians who were an unspecified group, or race of people, but it wasn't long before the Lost Tribes of Israel put in a bid for consideration. Tartaria was anywhere and everywhere there was exceptional architecture or mud or basements. The Lost Empire was a global one that enjoyed a 'Golden Age', peace and free energy technology. It was brought down or 'Reset' by another unspecified group, who were even more elusive than Sylvie's Parasites. They then attempted to erase all evidence of the Lost Global Empire from history... but didn't do a very efficient job obviously.

Make no mistake, I'm not claiming that Sylvie was right. Right or wrong, she inspired many people to do their own research into these areas and brought Fomenko to many people's attention. The meme, on the other hand, presented a package for all those who were interested, but too lazy or too stupid to do their own research, or who saw the opportunity to become armchair YouTube Gurus. And that's exactly why the Tartarian "Theory" hasn't progressed one millimetre in all those years. The grains of 'truth' or likely facts, are all smothered by the meme and that's why serious researchers, of which there are some on this forum, get so frustrated when they 'pull on a loose thread' from the tangle of 'Tartaria' and it leads elsewhere - outside the Tartarian meme's frame of reference, where it will be all alone in the cold with no one to love it. If you're looking for a 'Psy-Op', maybe that's it.



Safranek said:


> No, I have not had the time to actually look up and read the books being sourced, I will make the effort to do so to see if they can be found in English though.



That's great, because otherwise you are simply repeating someone else's opinion about the original source material, which is a bit like the way the Tartarian Meme operates. I think we are all guilty of that sometimes.

There's also a terrible temptation to link posts to the Tartarian Meme in their title in order to make it appeal to a wider audience. Perhaps it's time to stop that as it's just feeding the monster and the audience it attracts will not be sympathetic to any deviations from the Meme and incapable of rational discussion.


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## Blackdiamond (May 2, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> So that's why the mainstream spells it all out in Wikipedia then?
> 
> The Tartarian Conspiracy Theory - Wikipedia
> 
> ...




Why is it false propaganda and why is it SO important to debunk it?


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## Will Scarlet (May 2, 2022)

Blackdiamond said:


> Why is it false propaganda and why is it SO important to debunk it?



What makes "it" the truth and why is it SO important to constantly promote "it" for 7 - 8 years without providing evidence to prove, progress or resolve any of "it"?


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## Blackdiamond (May 2, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> What makes "it" the truth and why is it SO important to constantly promote "it" for 7 - 8 years without providing evidence to prove, progress or resolve any of "it"?



Fair point. 

I do believe in old russia. Before the old believers a.k.a. the pioneers from the church twisted the story. Thats my main entertainment here. And it is the same in scandinavia, hokkaido and North americas and possibly other areas outside of my direct interest. Its also very interesting to see how churchies defending the narrative even here (after searching themselves before) tooth and nails. 
- I dont believe in uni world Tartaria. But the truth is there was something before the te, no, church.


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## QuakerTheOat (May 2, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> The meme, on the other hand, presented a package for all those who were interested, but too lazy or too stupid to do their own research, or who saw the opportunity to become armchair YouTube Gurus. And that's exactly why the Tartarian "Theory" hasn't progressed one millimetre in all those years. The grains of 'truth' or likely facts, are all smothered by the meme and that's why serious researchers, of which there are some on this forum, get so frustrated when they 'pull on a loose thread' from the tangle of 'Tartaria' and it leads elsewhere - outside the Tartarian meme's frame of reference, where it will be all alone in the cold with no one to love it. If you're looking for a 'Psy-Op', maybe that's it.


This is the kind of analytical dissection that we need to do with every theory. It's a formula for moving forward at the cost of the destruction of the meme. The people that create these memes use every kind of psychological kung-fu in existence to prop them up and solidify them in minds - making them personal to the point that an attack on the meme invokes a physical response.


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## Safranek (May 2, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> Make no mistake, I'm not claiming that Sylvie was right. Right or wrong, she inspired many people to do their own research into these areas and brought Fomenko to many people's attention.


Sylive's version that you outlined sounds like a likely scenario according to my research also.



Will Scarlet said:


> That's great, because otherwise you are simply repeating someone else's opinion about the original source material, which is a bit like the way the Tartarian Meme operates. I think we are all guilty of that sometimes.


I agree with that point, hence the need for continued research. 

I don't accept the mass displacement or disappearance of the Asian/Scythian/Tartar population as a valid historical perspective, therefore I find the likelihood of the same people being classified under different names to be a more realistic scenario, as gathered together by Modi, although that info needs to be verified, and also the political affiliations of the primary sources is to also be considered.

It would be nice to have a thread on 'Tartaria/Tartary' where we actually separate the wheat from the chaff, to clarify some and dispell other so-called 'facts' of the meme you speak of.


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## Gabriel (May 2, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> So that's why the mainstream spells it all out in Wikipedia then?


I think that most people read the headlines only - you can admit to anything in there, or use it for propoganda, I think the headlines reach most people.


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## Will Scarlet (May 3, 2022)

Safranek said:


> I don't accept the mass displacement or disappearance of the Asian/Scythian/Tartar population as a valid historical perspective, therefore I find the likelihood of the same people being classified under different names to be a more realistic scenario,



I find the whole area of racial origins completely baffling these days. I'm still not even sure about the Romans, or is it Normans, and if either was actually a race. Likewise the Celts. The thing is it's all so complicated now. There are so many names of so many races, most of which I have never heard before - the Slartybartfastians, the Wearthefucarwi, the Futanari etc. It's like it now goes way beyond races - even beyond tribes and we're now down to the family name level of detail. Mr & Mrs Genghis Khan and family with The Mongols who do all their cleaning, cooking, raping and pillaging. The Hun family, where Mr Hun died and so Mrs Hun married an orphan called Gary, thus creating the Hungarians. Mr & Mrs Scyth and the Scythian family who are all descended from the Grim Reaper, etc., etc. who are all actually of the same genetic haploid as Mr & Mrs Smith from Milton Keynes. I always thought it should be much simpler the further back you go because there were less people, but it seems it's the opposite.

It's as if the multicultural agenda of George Soros' Open Society utopia has been backdated in order to splinter and divide all ancient races into smaller groups with multiple new connections. I wonder how many billions of dollars Soros has funnelled through his Open Society Foundations into all of these new (millennial) genetic studies? We are not supposed to have national or racial identities any more and so our roots are literally being torn up and shredded so that we can't trace our racial history and we all end up being of the same Hoothefucarwi tribe.

This could also explain why Tartaria/Tartary is never clearly defined in racial terms, because it has to be seen and promoted as a multiracial, multicultural Open Society, which by default will make it the showcase for Soros' new 'Tartarian Golden Age'.

As for the language aspect, well...

"Tivadar (Soros Senior) was an attorney by profession, but the consuming passion of his life was the promotion of Esperanto—an artificial, “universal” language created during the 1880s in hopes that people worldwide might be persuaded to drop their native tongues and speak Esperanto instead—thereby, in theory at least, minimizing their nationalist impulses while advancing intercultural harmony. In 1936, Tivadar changed his family surname to Soros—a future-tense Esperanto verb meaning “will soar.” _Source _(The original family name was Schwartz, which means black...)

Probably off-topic, but the whole Open Society thing allegedly comes from 'The Open Society and its Enemies' by Karl Popper, published in 1945 which, despite its fancy rhetoric, sophisticated arguments and a preface by George Soros in the 7th edition, is simply more of the age old "_*Do what thou wilt shall be the only law*_" that's been doing its best to screw everything up for the past 600 years or so.


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## iseidon (May 3, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> I find the whole area of racial origins completely baffling these days. I'm still not even sure about the Romans, or is it Normans, and if either was actually a race. Likewise the Celts. The thing is it's all so complicated now. There are so many names of so many races, most of which I have never heard before - the Slartybartfastians, the Wearthefucarwi, the Futanari etc. It's like it now goes way beyond races - even beyond tribes and we're now down to the family name level of detail. Mr & Mrs Genghis Khan and family with The Mongols who do all their cleaning, cooking, raping and pillaging. The Hun family, where Mr Hun died and so Mrs Hun married an orphan called Gary, thus creating the Hungarians. Mr & Mrs Scyth and the Scythian family who are all descended from the Grim Reaper, etc., etc. who are all actually of the same genetic haploid as Mr & Mrs Smith from Milton Keynes. I always thought it should be much simpler the further back you go because there were less people, but it seems it's the opposite.
> 
> It's as if the multicultural agenda of George Soros' Open Society utopia has been backdated in order to splinter and divide all ancient races into smaller groups with multiple new connections. I wonder how many billions of dollars Soros has funnelled through his Open Society Foundations into all of these new (millennial) genetic studies? We are not supposed to have national or racial identities any more and so our roots are literally being torn up and shredded so that we can't trace our racial history and we all end up being of the same Hoothefucarwi tribe.
> 
> ...



I agree with you that the topic of Tartary is being artificially promoted and used by someone at the top. Given what we see now in the world (in terms of multiculturalism), it is not difficult to guess which forces benefit from rewriting history for themselves.

About a common language. Not everyone promotes the idea of a single language that excludes the current languages. It seems to me, for example, that all modern languages were PART of a single language. Each language is a particular coloring, meaning, professional and spiritual purpose, etc. When the single language (and later other languages created) were fragmented, people all over the world were made poorer. They reduced the sound, color and meaning of words (and therefore the world) to a single "native language".

If you think the idea of a single language is sponsored by someone, does it occur to you that someone is (and has in the past) sponsoring the idea of different languages? Isn't there a force that benefits from dividing people? We are sitting on a site whose name is "stolenhistory". Don't you think the same could be done with the language "stolenlingva"?



Spoiler: An example with reference to the world situation.



I do not agree with the idea of abrupt multiculturalism (this will lead in the future and leads now to complications, which will and is the consequence of an abrupt transition). Of course, the process must be manageable, but it should start with the close peoples and nationalities. For example, Czechia + Slovakia + Poland = North Slavia. It must be done gradually, so that people do not raise (or rather, that they are not helped by a third party) nationalistic sentiments.

_If you like, you can compare it to a frog in a pot on low heat. Although the comparison is not quite right. But the point is the same. For change to take place, it must be gradual. Any abrupt changes (most often) cause a natural defensive reaction, because the person is not ready for these abrupt changes. But if a person is not changed and his horizons are not widened, degradation will inevitably come (as we see today in the example of most people on the planet) and subsequent extinction (it is best seen in the example of elites, which have to be in contact with us; in time, they have to replenish their ranks with commoners, so their blood does not freeze; to this is added the moral-will factor, which in elites weakens with time)._

The point of unification is not to destroy the three cultures. The point is to create a new culture on the basis of these three cultures, which will include all three cultures.  "The Soviet Union" tried to put something like this into practice (support for a united Czechoslovakia, a united Yugoslavia, a united Vietnam, not separate republics), but these were weak attempts that lacked a strategic vision. Now, the "U.S." (those forces that use the U.S. Army and other institutions) are working according to the opposite methodology with no serious adversaries and restrictive lines. North and South Korea, China and Taiwan (ideally, adding East Turkestan and Tibet), India, Pakistan, Bangladesh (East Pakistan), Sri Lanka, Sudan and South Sudan, the division of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.

The success of the "U.S." is that anywhere in the world, there will always be a group of people who want to control a small territory (hold territory, market, etc.). They ("the U.S." or, more precisely, those behind them) need only support or excite these groups. To manage a small, divided territory does not require a long-range planning horizon, only a current profit mindset (which is what modern education is geared to). When the resources of the old local administration are exhausted, a new (more loyal to outside colonizers) faction is hired.

On the contrary. In order to think long-term and in the format of a unification of countries and peoples, one needs first and foremost strategic planning and the ability to put this planning into practice. There are far fewer of these people than there are people who live for immediate interests. And most often they are gathered in the center of the metropolis. This is why Germany is united and neighboring Czechoslovakia is divided. Some got into the center of the metropolis, and some (the unified Soviet Union in the "1990s" or today's shrunken little Russia, for example) have no place there.



Unity for the sake of unity does not work. Especially a "unity" that is openly imposed and supported (nominally) from above. This means that we need grassroots prerequisites for real unity. These prerequisites could be unity of antique architecture and unity of the past language (PIE, Latin, Ancient Greek, Old Slavic, Old Scandinavian, Old Germanic, etc., give us the right to think that this logic has a theoretical basis).

Most importantly, I am biased. I am a representative of a culture and language that, by definition, consists of representatives of other (often vanished and reborn in another form) cultures. I am not going to go against myself (and I don't advise anyone to). If I am a consequence of a synthesis of closely related cultures and peoples, it would be logical to assume that I would advance that agenda. Just as it would be logical for a resident of a small conditional Caucasian (or any other) people to promote the idea of preserving their people. One of the tasks of humanity is to make sure that in spite of this contradiction, people live in peace. To create such conditions that they seek common ground and/or accept people as they are. Personally, I do both. But MY opinion is only my opinion.


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## trismegistus (May 3, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> I always thought it should be much simpler the further back you go because there were less people, but it seems it's the opposite.



When you say it seems to be the opposite - I assume you mean that  there should be less division of races/culture the farther back you go.  But perhaps the reason it is so complicated is because we are being lied to about how many people existed on the planet in the past.  Its difficult enough for even the most dystopian societies that keep digital tabs on as many citizens as possible to correctly estimate their populations - much less trust the people who tell us how many people existed in the past.  

For example - the area constituting what Tartaria was on maps now allegedly holds 2 billion+ people (Russia, China, India, etc).  This constitutes an overwhelming amount of distinct cultures, tribes, races, religions, etc - never mind the artificial borders.  Even if we were to say that 200 years ago the population was only 5% of this number we are looking at an area that still contains 100 million people.  This task becomes even more insurmountable if we also come to an agreement that haplogroup/PCR/modern scientific analysis science is not very accurate in painting a picture of culture.  

As per usual what we are left with is analyzing the physical structures and artifacts left behind.  And if we do that - we see that the evidence leans heavily towards a unified culture having existed in these places in the past.  Pyramids, mound structures, and "greco roman" architecture appear all over the planet somewhat consistently - but as to the origins of this culture many have debated.  When it was more in fashion they were called Atlanteans, phoenicians, ancient aliens, and now Tartaria.  Tartaria has had its time in the spotlight - and to me the results are inconclusive that they were connected to this technology, other than inhabiting areas in which this infrastructure still exists.  Just like the ancient Egyptians likely had little to do with the construction of the pyramids - the Tartarians had little to do with the same.


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## iseidon (May 3, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> When you say it seems to be the opposite - I assume you mean that  there should be less division of races/culture the farther back you go.  But perhaps the reason it is so complicated is because we are being lied to about how many people existed on the planet in the past.  Its difficult enough for even the most dystopian societies that keep digital tabs on as many citizens as possible to correctly estimate their populations - much less trust the people who tell us how many people existed in the past.


I am sure that most of the readers of this forum thread are already familiar with this information.

Here is one of the evidences that in the past the population of the planet (or at least the southern part of the African continent) exceeded the present population.





> The Okavango delta in South Africa is surrounded by evidence of hundreds of miles of artificial irrigation. The parallel channels that you see are a mile or so apart. This suggests that there was once an extremely large population there utilizing advanced agricultural techniques. From Gary Schoenung.



Maps.

The posts on stolenhistory where Gary Schoenung's work is mentioned.

SH Archive Replies - Grids without People

SH Archive Replies - Useful Links and Channels


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## Wheelsinthesky (May 6, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> So that's why the mainstream spells it all out in Wikipedia then?
> 
> The Tartarian Conspiracy Theory - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


I agree with this. It's very obvious at this point that the Tartaria angle is very much a either a psyop or a hijacked narrative by people making money on you tube who are not brave or honest enough to admit when there is evidence that runs counter to their arguments. It's a very alluring theory and it's hard to not get absorbed in it.


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## Quiahuitl (May 6, 2022)

Wheelsinthesky said:


> a hijacked narrative by people making money on you tube who are not brave or honest enough to admit when there is evidence that runs counter to their arguments.



This is also known as 'Standard practice.'  Literally everybody does this.  You wont find microsoft salesmen talking about all the faults in their products, for example.  You don't see BMW salesmen saying the Audi corners better. Etc etc.

Maybe electronic theory is a better example.  Modern computer chips have millions of trackways on them with electricity flowing along.  If you divide the total power consumption of the chip by the electronic charge, it turns out there aren't enough electrons to fill every trackway on the chip.  Modern science just ignores this and carries on blindly believing in the electron and also woo hoo! we have computer chips that work too - we just don't know why.


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## Wheelsinthesky (May 6, 2022)

Quiahuitl said:


> This is also known as 'Standard practice.'  Literally everybody does this.  You wont find microsoft salesmen talking about all the faults in their products, for example.  You don't see BMW salesmen saying the Audi corners better. Etc etc.
> 
> Maybe electronic theory is a better example.  Modern computer chips have millions of trackways on them with electricity flowing along.  If you divide the total power consumption of the chip by the electronic charge, it turns out there aren't enough electrons to fill every trackway on the chip.  Modern science just ignores this and carries on blindly believing in the electron and also woo hoo! we have computer chips that work too - we just don't know why.


Yeah I agree. With historical revision it should be taken seriously. But then again if some douche sells me something that has inherent faults i want to know before hand!!!


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## Cosmicparrot (May 27, 2022)

Wheelsinthesky said:


> I agree with this. It's very obvious at this point that the Tartaria angle is very much a either a psyop or a hijacked narrative by people making money on you tube who are not brave or honest enough to admit when there is evidence that runs counter to their arguments. It's a very alluring theory and it's hard to not get absorbed in it.


Tartaria is an interesting topic as we hardly know much, in truth of the "history" of the Tartars. So most speculate and get hits on YT etc ... There may well have been a great Empire but Stalin's Russia would have destroyed it. I say more a hijacked narrative. What we can piece together is the past was great. Technology was amazing. Architecture was just breath-taking. And the great lands mainly lived in harmony with Nature and each other. There time was prosperous. Our time upside down and evil run by Evil. I am reading a book on Tartaria and it does jump around. More on when I finish it.


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## Bitbybit (Jul 4, 2022)

I stumbled upon this link discussing the validity of a Lechina Empire (polish empire)
Could it be a reflection of the fomenko mongol/tartar territory at some stage?

The Falsity of the Lechina Empire


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## Silveryou (Jul 5, 2022)

Bitbybit said:


> I stumbled upon this link discussing the validity of a Lechina Empire (polish empire)
> Could it be a reflection of the fomenko mongol/tartar territory at some stage?


Almost nobody cares about Fomenko and short-chrono on this forum. You just take a look at the presentation of the new-comers to see what they are interested in. Tartaria is mudflood for them and is expecially good when combined with Atlantis, the nazeees and Antarctica.
Bye


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## TuranSilvanus (Jul 5, 2022)

Bitbybit said:


> I stumbled upon this link discussing the validity of a Lechina Empire (polish empire)
> Could it be a reflection of the fomenko mongol/tartar territory at some stage?
> 
> The Falsity of the Lechina Empire
> View attachment 23767


well as i see the Tartars were the PolakHussars too and others; but i dont put here video coz will be deleted anyhow


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## Cosmicparrot (Jul 5, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> Like the first time you searched for “Building 7” - searching for Tartaria can lead people down some wonderful research rabbit holes, and also traps.
> 
> The memeification of Tartaria into the beast it is today - one of hyper advanced tech and a completely peaceful society with no war - is a pipe dream at best and a psyop at worst.
> 
> ...



Well posted and written. I agree. The problem we have with History in general is a lack of real evidence to cling to and work around. So much has been written by the Victors, the liars, the Jesuits that we have only like 20% of the jigsaw pieces and we are desperate to find at least another 50% so hence the stupid memes and vast oversimplification and some down right stupid views on social media.


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## Black.Raven (Jul 5, 2022)

I think that people should stop searching for „the most advanced, the best warriors”…  living calmly without wars in peace with nature isn’t “primitive” or “cave man” thing. It’s probably the right way…
But with searching for the best you are just trying to say that Tatars don’t exist. 
well they do. I am of Tatar descend but was rised in Poland so I don’t know anything about (and found all of it while searching for actual Tatars…). I just know that some of Tatars were writing and documenting their history. We had diary too, but my grandma gave it away. But maybe some families still have them. 
while searching about name itself in different languages actually Tatar can be translated as “shaman”. If this is correct? Who knows, but can be a hint. 
There are many Tatars all around the world (especially around the places where “Tartaria” was) and they are called differently depending on the place they live. 
Tatars exist. But if they’re that big, awesome empire? That’s another question.
But again if you have erased history and erased culture there is a chance that it was erased and you can’t find anything or you can find what somebody want you to. What can make absolutely no sense or be falsified.


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## Nonat (Jul 5, 2022)

Cosmicparrot said:


> Well posted and written. I agree. The problem we have with History in general is a lack of real evidence to cling to and work around. So much has been written by the Victors, the liars, the Jesuits that we have only like 20% of the jigsaw pieces and we are desperate to find at least another 50% so hence the stupid memes and vast oversimplification and some down right stupid views on social media.




Yeah, our position is very challenging, we basically:


- have to undo the indoctrination that we've been subjected to for something like 2 decades at least

- get aware of our most fundamental (and often automatic) assumptions and their basis

- need to acknowledge that we simply don't know much at all and started from close to nothing

- have to sift through mountains of potential material

- have to work with small pieces of a puzzles that we'll likely never have many, let alone all pieces for

- have to still constantly question each of these pieces as many of them are altered (e.g. the vanilla skies - and someone has to first notice this pattern) or completely made up specifically to lead us astray

- And the findings are quite frankly utterly bizarre (worldwide mudflood?, buildings apparently build for giants?, scrap mining on a planeary scale?, wtf is all this!?)

- We also have to look for things that are not there (which is much more challenging than noticing patterns of things that are there), like the missing plumbing or the usually missing construction photographs that actually show a build process

- And we have to be very critical and skeptical of anything we see to notice subtle things that don't add up (like allegedly newly constructed buildings already looking weathered, etc.)

- Finally we have to combine all of this mess somehow to have an idea what actually happened in this world



But on the other hand, we have many great minds sharing their thoughts and ideas and working together to untie this giant knot. We don't know much but what we find tends to be pretty reliable, and through the process we get very accustomed to think far outside the box and have very healthy doses of skepticism.

So here we are


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## Silveryou (Jul 5, 2022)

Returning to the subject, there is this very good article by a French recentist (Cartes tartares). I'm reporting here the translation with the Google translator:

*Tartar Maps*​Examination of a set of maps of the world and Tartary proposed by Silva Ivanova

Earliest dates and authors are most often assigned without evidence on the map. Some are possibly backdated or falsely attributed.

*America*

Jean Le Clerc's map of 1602 informs us that Nova Albion was founded in 1590 on the west coast.





_1602 Le Clerc, detail_​One of the most debatable points of Fomenko's work is the idea that the conquest of the Americas from Europe took place two centuries later, the conquest of the 16th century being a conquest from Tartary. This requires that all of the cards that testify to this colonization – which he uses when it suits him – are false.

The names mentioned here on the west coast in 1602 are mostly Spanish - as on the east coast - but there is mention of Nova Albion, which the map says was established in 1590. This is as early or even older than the first English settlements on the coast east (Roanoke), which are not mentioned on this map.




_1608 Pet Kaerio, excerpt._​The insert at the bottom mentions native "Tartars". The presence of Tartars in the west will prevent colonization from the west. The Tartars even make them leave, since the north of the west coast is no longer mentioned on the maps from 1657, California being reduced to an island. The colonies reappeared under the same name in 1744, when the Russian Empire was formed in the east. The maps are correctly drawn from 1779.

_


1657 Visscher, excerpt_​
The west coast is further detailed.




_1658, Visscher, excerpt_​Nova Albion is still placed on the map with Port “Saint” Francis Drake, but it is confused with California, much further south, and now an island.




_1744 The Red, excerpt_​The conquest of Siberia by the Russian Empire created “subjects of Russia” from the Arctic Circle. A joint trip by Tchirikow and De L'Isle allowed us to redo a better map of western North America.

*Russia*

Novogardia Russia (Hartman Schedel, 1493), Asian Sarmatia (Gregor Reisch, 1503), then *Russia* or Muscovy has been distinct from Tartary since 1500.

Persia is *mentioned* as such since 1493. In 1630 (Henry Hondio) it extends to Pakistan.

The *Turks* are the inhabitants of *Parthia* (Schedel, 1493), then *Turkestan* , which will later correspond to independent Tartary, to the republics of Central Asia. This nation includes *Samarkand* and Khwarezm (Samaria). This nation is different from modern Turkey, still called Natolia.

Modern Turkey is built on what we call “Ottoman Empire” but which is called “  *Empire of the Turks*  ”, which more or less corresponds to the ancient Assyrians. It was only called the "Turkish Empire" when it entered Europe, which was only mentioned on maps in *1648* . This nation supplanted the Anatolian Greeks for about a century. A Little Tartary is mentioned north of the Black Sea that year.




_1562 Jenkinson_​The map calls Samoyeds the inhabitants of northern Siberia. Tartars are still reported in southern Russia (Crimea, Astrakhan). The Tartaria associates the Horde Nagaia (main Horde) with the "Turkmen" and the country of Shamarghan.




_1562 Jenkinson, detail_​“Samarkand, metropolis of all Tartary, is now in ruins. For Tamerlane has taken Bajazet the Emperor of the Turks prisoner. The inhabitants are Mohammedans."




_1572 Ortelius, excerpt_​Central Asia is named Turkestan, associated with Corasssan. The capital is Samarkand. Tartary has among its towns *Cambalich* on the Ob. It still extends to the Volga. Cambalich is mentioned on maps as an important city or capital of Tartary between 1572 (Ortelius) and 1676 (Duval), but it is often not mentioned after 1657.

Tartary from the Nagaya Horde will now be separate from Turkestan.





_1587 Rumold Mercator_​Russia has pushed Tartary beyond the Ob.




_1594 Plancio, excerpt_​The extension of Russia is confirmed.

Hindustan designates *around* 1600 India with Indochina.




_1630 Henryk Hondius, excerpt_​The Empire of the Turks extends in Egypt and on the Libyan coasts. Persia extends to the Indus. Indostan to the west or “Intra-Gangem India” is on the other side.




_1658 Visscher, excerpt_​Mention is made of the Mogul on the Indus, between Persia and Indostan. Indostan is already named Mogul on the Jenkinson map of 1562, but the name had disappeared from maps. The Mughal Empire is said to have been founded by Tamerlane, but there is no mention of an Empire yet.




_1660 De Wit, excerpt_​Russia extends to the Ob. Cumbalich and Caracorum are mentioned. Mogolestan is forgotten. Indostan is more or less limited to Indiam intragangem (between the Indus and the Ganges). The name does not include the peninsula where the regions Cambaia in the north and Narfinga in the south are named.




_1670 De Wit, excerpt_​Indostan is separated from Persia by the Indus, and does not include the peninsula. Russia goes to the Ob.




_1676 Duval, excerpt_​The empire of the Turks took over Europe east of the Adriatic. Muscovy retreats to the Volga. Cambalich is always mentioned with Caracoran. Hindustan is replaced by the Mogul Empire with Delhi and Agra as main cities. The Himalayas are called Caucasus.




_1680 Danckerts, excerpt_​Mogul expanded north and south




_1684 Rossi, excerpt_​Tibet is mentioned north of the state of Mogul.




_1690 Jaillot, excerpt_​Muscovy goes to the Ob. Tibet is an integral part of Great Tartary and north of the Himalayas. On the map, the Himalayas is always the Caucasus.

The Mogul Empire crossed the Indus to the west and conquered part of Persia.




_1694 Jaillot extracted_​The Himalayas are still called Caucasus. The map mentions Magias in Thibbet. The capital of Great Tartary appears to be Caracoram west of Altai.




_1696 Cassini, excerpt_​Things change. Great Tartary now extends beyond the Volga and into Georgia. It was at this time that Peter I began the Russo-Ottoman war. In a recentist context, it is often said that the Russians usurped the legitimate Tartar power in Moscow, and that they put down at the time the “revolt” of Stepan Razin and the true believers from the Astrakhan region. Astrakhan will indeed be a Tartar military region thereafter. But we see that this attack is not the desperate rebellion of the last legitimate kings. It is an invasion of Russia by Great Tartary. The capital seems to have been transferred to Selinga on the Yenisei.

A recentist question is who were the Ottomans that Peter I was fighting. The Empire of the Turks is very in the south, it is necessary to pass by Georgia which the chart of Jaillot presents like independent. It's even harder now that Great Tartary has created a kingdom in Astrakhan.




_1700 Zurmer, excerpt_​The Tartars took Tobolsk and Astrakhan. The Caucasus is placed in the right place. There is a "major Tibet" far to the north. Mugalia dates back far to the north. New cities appear like Cosaccorum in the Urals, or Urbs Mugalum (probably Selinga).




_1702 Godson, excerpt_​The Kingdom of Astrakhan still exists, but Great Tartary is divided into three. “Mosovite” (sic) Tartary, independent Tartary which corresponds to ancient Turkestan, and Chinese Tartary, north of a border wall with China which corresponds to the Great Wall. The names of the cities change.




_1714 Iron, excerpt_​De Fer's map of 1714 reconstructs Great Tartary, but it is imprecise.




_1720 Delisle, excerpt_​The three Tartaries are again distinct. The capital of Muscovite Tartary appears to be Tobolsk. The name "Great Tartary" is now associated with independent Tartary.




_1744 Bowen, excerpt_​Muscovite Tartary is now integrated into a "Russian Empire". There are only two Tartaries left, one from the west and one from the east.




_1748 Bellin, excerpt_​A kingdom of Astrakhan is again reported south of the Volga. This is where Pugachev's revolt against Russia started.




_1755 Nolin, excerpt_​The capitals of Independent Tartary and Chinese Tartary seem to be Bokara and Karakoto.




_1755 anonymous, excerpt_​The name "Turkestan" is again used to designate independent Tartary. The words Turk and Tartar have become synonymous.

The status of Muscovite Tartary is fluctuating, so that maps from 1771 (often shown) mention Great Tartary again. But the Russians settled in Siberia as early as the 1740s. In 1775, due to the defeat of Pougachev, the north of Tartary seemed lost.





_1775 Letter, excerpt_​The Tartars of the west are now divided between Uzbeks and Tartars Eiluts, in northern Tibet.




_1775 Lotter, excerpt_​The Kingdom of Tibet has taken on a certain importance in northern India. He apparently annexed the Eilut Tartars.




_1786 Fadden, excerpt_​South India is now called the Decan. Tibet is still distinct from China.





_1816 Darton, excerpt_​The Eilut Tartars of independent Tartary are now attached to Chinese Tartary are the name of Mongolia.




_1824 Fadden, excerpt. Hindustan migrates south to the peninsula. The Deccan is not mentioned, so the name must refer to the whole of India._​Traditional China, to the southwest of present-day China (Shanghai) remains on the sidelines of most political recompositions.

A "Chinese empire" now includes Tibet, China, Chinese Tartary and Mongolia. In 1851, the original Chinese Tartary will be renamed Manchuria.

Western Tartary (Uzbeks, Kalmouks) becomes “Tataria” (future republics of Central Asia). Afghanistan becomes independent from Persia as the Kingdom of Cabul.




_1851 Tallis, excerpt_​China, Tibet, Mongolia and Manchuria are the four quarters of the Chinese Empire.

*To summarize, and in connection with the work of Fomenko

America*

The presence of Westerners in America does not date from the 18th century. The conquest of the Americas dates back to the second half of the 16th century. Most names on both coasts in 1600 are Spanish. On the other hand, the Tartars were present when they arrived

Hidden fact: both coasts were colonized by Europeans around 1600, but the Tartars prevented conquest from the west. They will be defeated in the Indian Wars.

In 1744, the Russian Empire was formed in the east and crossed the Strait of Anian. The Russians of the western United States probably predate the conquest of the west as Fomenko supposes, but they are not Tartars.

*Asia

Persia* has been mentioned as such since 1493. In 1630 it extended to the Indus, facing the *Mogul Empire* . From 1636 the maps distinguish Hyrcania and Alexandria as main cities. Belatedly Herat seems to have been called "Esterabad". His standard historically represents a lion.

The oldest maps of Ptolemy mention for Poland-Lithuania the name of European Sarmatia, and Muscovy is named Asian Sarmatia, before renaming the country Poland and Muscovy or Russia. The Turanians therefore ruled in Muscovy before 1500 as the *Sarmatians* . The manifest Turanian identity of Muscovites partially validates Fomenko's identification of Russians with Tartars. However, he thinks that the account of the end of the "Tartar yoke" by Ivan III in 1480 after the death of Mehmet II is a fable and that Russia remained a Tartar country.

Gold maps after 1500 show a *Russia* distinct from *Tartary* . Obviously Europeans have conquered Muscovy. Compared to Moscow, which would be the original Jerusalem, the history of the Hasmoneans shows that after the initial revolt of Judah Maccabee, the king who follows, Jonathan (Ivan?) is under Seleucid influence.

Fomenko also identifies the Turks and the Tartars, and sees in them generic terms not designating peoples. But *Tartary and Turkestan* are different countries from the 16th century.

The *Empire of the Turks* in the 16th century refers to Turkestan. In the 17th century it designates a country which includes Assyria, Natolia (modern Turkey) and part of Arabia. This nation supplanted the Greeks of Anatolia since about 1540. Around 1630 this empire extended to Egypt and the Libyan coasts, and Europe to the Adriatic from *1648* .

The wars against the empire of the southern Turks and against the Tartars are different. The “Turks” attacked Europe in 1648, the Tartars attacked Russia in 1694. Peter I did not face the southern “Turks” but the Tartars, the real “  *Ottomans*  ”

The metropolis of Tartary is before 1550 *Samarkand* in Turkestan, whose inhabitants are said to be "Mahometans".

Tamerlan, Emperor of Tartary, from the Nagaya Horde, ravages Samarkand and takes the Emperor of the Turks Bajazet prisoner. The Nagayas become the dominant force. Their capital is at Cambalich (at least 1572-1676), and their territory extends to the *Volga*

Between 1585 and 1670, Russia pushed Tartary beyond the Ob on the maps. After Cambalich, the capital seems to have been Caracoram west of Altai and further from the front.

Around 1675, Tartary returned to the banks of the Volga, but was pushed back to the Ob again in 1690. The southern "empire of the Turks" attacked Europe

The attacks of the “Ottomans” against Russia seem to have been concomitant with the extension of the *Mogul Empire* to the north of India. Officially founded by Tamerlane, it may have been conquered in the wake of the capture of Turkestan. Although not part of Tartary, dynastic links may have been present. Called Hindustan, it again became the “Mogul Empire” from 1675. It then conquered the Indian peninsula and extended north of the Himalayas. In 1684, the northern Himalayas took the name of Tibet, whose kingdom was ruled by “Magias” (the “Caucasian Mages” were therefore the Himalayan lamas at the time). On the maps it is not integrated into the Mogul Empire but into Great Tartary. It crosses the Indus and takes Aghanistan from the Persian Empire.

The Russo-Ottoman War is directed not against the southern Turks, but Tartary. The Tartar attack in 1696 in the west takes Tobolsk and Astrakhan. It takes place at the same time that the name of Mugalia appears on the map in northern Tibet, with a new city named Urbs Mugalum, future *Selinga* , which will soon appear as the capital of Great Tartary. It therefore seems that *the Mughal Empire was allied with the Tibetans, and with Great Tartary* .

In 1702 military failure divided Tartary into three. Turkestan took the name "Independent Tartary" or from the west, again "Turkestan", even "Great Tartary" (1720 Delisle), with a capital at Bokara and perhaps a religious center again at Samarkand. The north invested by Russia takes the name of Muscovite Tartary, Russian Tartary, then Russian Empire (1744), with a capital in Tobolsk (which is therefore not the capital of Great Tartary as Fomenko says). Eastern Tartary is also called Chinese Tartary, whose capital would have been Karakoto.

From 1720, Tibet is reduced to a small country in the Himalayas. But a country called "Greater Tibet" is reported on some maps, and Moguls and later Eiluts on others east of Tartary, in what will later be Xinjiang rather than Mongolia, which is further north. in Chinese Tartary.

The western Tartars are divided between Uzbeks and Kalmouks in the west, and Eiluts or Mongols in Xinjiang. This explains why Great Vehicle Buddhism is shared in Mongolia and Tibet. The name Mogul appears to have been passed down from the Mogul Empire of Hindustan.

Between 1748 and 1775, the time of the famous “Pugachev revolt”, it seems according to certain maps that independent Tartary (Uzbeks and Eiluts) received the support of Tibet. The Tartars will take back the south (kingdom of Astrakhan) and the east of the Volga. The status of the north will fluctuate but it will remain generally held by Russia.

The defeat may have come from internal divisions. As early as 1760, Turkestan had two distinct regions, one for the “Uzbeks” and one for the Eilut Tartars. In 1816, the Eiluts were integrated into Chinese Tartary under the name of Mongolia and separated from "Great Tibet".

In 1824, the western area of Turkestan was renamed Tataria (future future republics of Central Asia). Mongolia, Chinese Tartary, Tibet and China proper form the four parts of the “Empire of China”. Chinese Tartary is then renamed Manchuria.

Thus it is indeed the Tartars who create an Empire of China (as Fomenko says), but the Chinese Tartars.


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## Nonat (Jul 6, 2022)

When looking at the youtube comment section it once was very common for people to express some variation of:

_"Tartaria was once a dominant Empire and we have lost everything after evil took over."_

I don't think there can be any doubt that we are enslaved by evil entities, however I'm not sure it's reasonable to assume that the old world was free of slavery or evil in general - just because they had advanced technology and capabilities at their hands.

If we assume that many of the statues are original old world, we can evidently see how they casually enslaved animals like horses (which needs a complete disrespect of the freedom of that conscious other being), and proudly made symbolic statues out of the scene, so it isn't much of a stretch to assume they did the same with other mammals, like humans. This might sound strange to some in a world like this where it is so normalized and common, but how can there be an actual civilized society that disrespects and rejects the freedom of sentient creatures that can't fight back?

So the assumption the world once was overall good and evil took over seems implausible to me.
An evil high-tech Uncivilization is even far far more dangerous, because of the multiple ways they can utterly enslave and harm you (do you remember these drawings of strange creatures with dog-, cat- or falcon-heads?), because they have all the capabilities that primitive have, and then many more that technology makes possible.


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## ViniB (Jul 6, 2022)

Nonat said:


> I don't think there can be any doubt that we are enslaved by evil entities, however I'm not sure it's reasonable to assume that the old world was free of slavery or evil in general - just because they had advanced technology and capabilities at their hands.


Well it's quite obvious to me that there was evil in the old world, otherwise we wouldn't be in our current total slavery. I see it as the good and evil paradox, just my speculation here but perhaps segments of the old world became greedy and power hungry. 

This theme is explored by the popular Dj Alan Walker, many of his videoclips are about the destruction of the old world by their evil counterparts and persecution of the survivors, who were trying to explore and rebuilt their society. It's worth a look


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## asatiger1966 (Jul 8, 2022)

ViniB said:


> Well it's quite obvious to me that there was evil in the old world, otherwise we wouldn't be in our current total slavery. I see it as the good and evil paradox, just my speculation here but perhaps segments of the old world became greedy and power hungry.
> 
> This theme is explored by the popular Dj Alan Walker, many of his videoclips are about the destruction of the old world by their evil counterparts and persecution of the survivors, who were trying to explore and rebuilt their society. It's worth a look



If everything is vibration then would there not be a positive and a negative? You can not have good without bad. They balance out.


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## Gold (Jul 17, 2022)

So we're still in agreement that there was an old world with cool atmospheric energy, the gorgeous buildings that we all know about spread over more or less the entire known world and there probably was a significant civilization called, or otherwise known to us now as Tartar-something, yeah?
Because it doesn't really matter to most people what you call things, I think, just that there WAS an old world and many civilizations that harnessed advanced, seemingly "clean/green" technology (including and not limited to geopolymer) that has been erased from our collective memory to enable us to be shackled into an evil Brutalist loosh farm of a reality.

And that's what drew me to this place and the Old World anyways. The beauty, the achievements, the videogame like splendor and fantastical way of how we once were and what we were able to achieve as "humans".

I think people just call the entire old world "Tartaria" because it's how the universal style of architecture was introduced to them. A style that hinted a large, if not world spanning civilization, definitely a common THEME the civilizations and confederations of the past shared: technology, beauty, and splendor. Similar enough that we can clearly see with our own eyes they share enough things in common for us to make the deductions we have.

And I can see how that can distract from the goal of finding out true history. But the title of this thread itself is kind of misleading, in that "gotcha/clickbait/what I mean isn't actually what the title may instinctively convey at first" kinda way. Maybe worth renaming it so it doesn't evoke the same type of feel that the people who say "nooo, this place was just an unknown territory and you guys are nuts, there wasn't an old world that wasn't primitive garbage, Google says it was!"


Anyways, where are now as far as the consensus on the actual chronology that we've discovered so far? I haven't had time to really go through everything lately ever since the documentaries were put out. Gotta give them a peek.


Nonat said:


> When looking at the youtube comment section it once was very common for people to express some variation of:
> 
> _"Tartaria was once a dominant Empire and we have lost everything after evil took over."_
> 
> ...


You know I think about those weird creatures a lot and wonder is rather than genetic splicing or weird technology those were just things that somehow existed, because of the state of the biosphere at the time. And now they mostly don't because of the state it's in now (which seems to be at a low point in supporting life compared to the past).

It also seems like, if that was technologically induced, despite attempts to hide it we probably would have seen overspill of it by now in the form of way more of these kinds of cryptids being spotted or escaping from labs, but it seems to me the controllers are, if anything, trying to recreate things from the past in a different, probably more monopolized and more easily controlled way. We are not too technologically downgraded from the past in terms of capability, as much as that the technology we have now is just seemingly WAY more destructive and cancerous to life in general. There was probably a reason old buildings were more or less faraday cages or had properties similar to them.

But yeah, to my point of view it seems like the nature of the previous world was more "magical" than strictly technological, and there was probably always a coexistence and interdependence of both, and these days the controllers are trying to play catch-up to not just the technology of the past but the way things probably just were. I'm not convinced so far that the weird creatures in old art were churned out in weird genetic splicing factories like some have proposed but were probably a more direct manifestation of the dreamlike properties of the dream we're all seemingly trapped in right now. Because I don't really believe in physical reality.

This place is just a shitty astral realm with heavy restrictions. And it seems they've gotten heavier over time.

Perhaps this is why they introduced "digital technology" - to compensate for the lack of "magic" in the world now that may explain the lack of the fantastical creatures and so on that were seemingly normal a few hundred years ago. And when you look into the nature of digital technology, the ties to Goetia and so on.... it doesn't seem so far fetched that there's a lot of compensation going on, to aide those in power in enslaving us "more efficiently". The lack of magic these days, I'm sure, heavily restricts them too, which is probably why digital technology came to be. And probably even to an extent, the old "cleaner" technology of the past was compensating for the lack of astral/magical power we have to cope with now, but we can all see that this current vein of technology benefits one side much more heavily than the other.
It's nonetheless very telling to me that the old world seemed to know of and perceive EMF as a threat since they incorporation protection from it into their structures (from what I understand, anyways) and said technology can't even exist without causing death, cancer, and deterioration to all life it interacts with, period.
My gut tells me it's a choice that was made to monopolize power to compensate for a lack of power that all of us as humans now have to cope with, including them.

picsrel

(It's not lost on me how the "grids without people" found all over Earth resemble circuit boards either..................... Maybe even that technology was just another vein of this weird sigil magic we seem to use and take for granted now. I don't know. Suppose that completely depends on if they are in fact trapped, and evil! Who knows anymore? I've seen it proposed that demons are somehow not actually bad because of the roots of the word daemon. Everything is garbled and inverted, the generative principle of this realm seems to be paradox. Nothing can exist without containing everything in itself and its own opposite. The more I have looked into technology the more I've become convinced it's all bad.)

Oh, and yeah, I'm sure slavery existed even back then. I hate the fact that we can't even exist without eating living things in some form or another, you make a good point with the treatment of horses. I hate this place.


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## Parallax (Jul 18, 2022)

dreamtime said:


> View attachment 18703
> _Tartary, a vast country in the northern parts of Asia... This is called Great Tarary (1771, Encyclopedia Britannica)_​
> As we got many new users during the last months, some from Youtube, I think it's time to start a thread on this topic.
> 
> ...


All the research I have looked into heavily leans towards the "Tartars" being the the united people's of the previously conquered lands of the Khan's. After ruling so much territory for so long it's stands to reason they would of incrementally been attacked and worn down from all sides over the years. It doesn't only serve the ideals of our western dictators to write them out of history but also empowers the controllers of the near and middle east to elevate their civilizations and historical claims. It also seems there has been a concerted effort by some to mix the Khan's empire with the mudflood and old world architecture especially with US and Australia. The moorish architecture all over America in particular is never accounted for and largely ignored by the community, of which I think offers more clues and opportunities for tangible research. I thank you all for your input and contributions into these subjects, your combined thoughts and conclusions are very much appreciated.


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## jafa (Jul 18, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> Like the first time you searched for “Building 7” - searching for Tartaria can lead people down some wonderful research rabbit holes, and also traps.
> 
> The memeification of Tartaria into the beast it is today - one of hyper advanced tech and a completely peaceful society with no war - is a pipe dream at best and a psyop at worst.
> 
> ...


As for Russian war with Napoleon in 1812, there are enticing evidences that Alexander and Napoleon were on one side. But, as we know the war in Russia is treated as the patriotic war against invasion of France at present, with war heroes (Kutuzov, Bagration, Davudov snd many others). With epic battle of Borodino. My point is. I can understand the reasons why Russia rewrote history on its side. I wonder why French did the same and took Russia’s side . It was not that long ago afterall. Why it was beneficial for France to rewrite the history on theirs side and assume the invador”s role that lost at the end of the day according to official history? So everyone was covering up for Tartaria’s involvement in the conflict? Why everyone? Why China does the same? Could it be because the huge slavic dominance across the world in the past makes current countries (Russia, China, Europe) look insignificant and retarded? Well, in simplistic view, yes. Russian (based in Saint-Petersburg) czars were all blood-related to european monarchs up till Bolshevik revolution. So the whole European elite  was united pretty much and shared same values, languages and ways of thinking. This is evolutioned in todays world, as we know it. 
But somehow I feel that everything was more complex with Tartaria. It does seem like it came from completely different previous world. The better, or worse. The world that was destroyed completely by smth or smbd. As you probably know there are NO trees in Siberia older than 200 years. There are numerous ideal round-shape lakes and holes across the region. There is still radiation in some of it. That explains why there are no antique type buildings in Siberia. Almost all population was wiped out during 19th century when Russia became to re-“discover” new lands to the East of Siberia with completely new towns built at that time.
Too many things happened in the 2nd half of 17th century and then again smth happened in the 1st half of the19th.


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## Black.Raven (Jul 19, 2022)

I guess that Tartaria is only a name for “stolen history”? Something as a sign that there is something that was lost, so there can be more to our story?
I don’t really think that Tatars (or Tartars) were Slavic or anything. Looking at people bones and probably brain structure there can be more significant differences than “race” ones. Maybe someone developed “races” as we know them now. That’s not that hard to do and don’t take long.
Questioning is good, but when you question something, you need to question every single piece of information. if you believe in some because they just make sense to you, you can miss a lot.
russian or whatever, countries come and go, they change locations, they divide, disappear and appear. There were many countries made  after 1st world word and now many people are “patriots” to these countries but….. what the hell were this people before? Why are we divided so much? 
btw it’s interesting that Tartaria thing become such a big thing now after Russia took many things from Crimea (which was land of Tatars and you can find all maps calling that lands Tartaria too.) What is interesting lately it is known that Tatars were native population to Crimea which I don’t remember when I was searching about Crimean Tatars before.
I really believe that searching for something which was erased intentionally is kind of difficult and misleading because erased mean erased. Gone. Hidden. Not available. 
We can share what we found but arguing that one is wrong because it doesn’t fit your (personal) narrative is kind of stupid.
I think that we all want to know truth, but searching for that can mean that what you thought of “good guys” were “bad guys”.
There is also no white and black in the world. There is no “perfect”.
I just wanted to share what if there were more than 1 times when history were erased? What if that all changed more than one time and it all became as a languages in babel all messed up? How can we know that 1500s data are ok, but then something happend in 1800 and only then is wrong?


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## Migniardise (Aug 1, 2022)

Guys, read the Travela of Marco Polo. Tartary is just what they used to call the Mongolian Empire before the modern day times. Marco Polo named "Chinggis Khan" as the head of the Tartarian Empire in the book. Also in Russia, they call Tartary "the Golden Horde" and say Chinggis Khan was its leader.


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## N.D. Magoo (Aug 1, 2022)

dreamtime said:


> View attachment 18703
> _Tartary, a vast country in the northern parts of Asia... This is called Great Tarary (1771, Encyclopedia Britannica)_​
> As we got many new users during the last months, some from Youtube, I think it's time to start a thread on this topic.
> 
> ...


This is fascinating, and I love well-intentioned skeptical takes on this stuff. IMO there is a lot of bull-crap out there, posted in the name of Tartary. That said, I literally have a historical map of it on my wall; it did exist as a recognized political entity in the past. Second of all, be aware that this general awakening that you're tapping into here is not specific thing, tied to a specific theory or two. It's the hypothesis that history is not what we have been taught that it is. With humans in charge, this hypothesis is always going to be true to some extent; it's just the degree and the details that are up for debate! Cheers!


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## LizardKing (Aug 25, 2022)

Tart+Arya = Sum+Arya = Arya (Ancient Persia) = Iran

Simply put I am an alleged member of this ridiculous conspiracy.  Or at least maybe my ancestors were.  Right, that's what this mythos is insinuating right?  Well, I am a Professional Building Inspector, and Licensed Building Energy Consultant in California.  My family history, and family tree is riddled with Conquerors, Chateaus, Assassins, knights, and Chevaliers.  To be super specific there are a bout a dozen castles ion France named after my family, many of which still operate as Hotels, Vineyards, Food Factories, Casinos, Ruins, or even Government Buildings throughout France, Belgium, Switzerland, Luxemborg Netherlands and yes Menton but not Monaco.

So my point here is that my family did in fact build many of these building, and then actually came around later and modified them.  My father was a realtor, his father was an Architect.  My personal experience with construction, renovation, restoration and other building techniques and technologies is unquestionable.  

There are some truths that underlie this scheme to a degree.  The Irish and Scottish do claim to be Scythians.  Tartaria did seem to be known as Scythia at some previous point.

Scythia = Saccari = Issacar = Issac Tribe
Denmark = Danemaerken = Danes = Dan Tribe
Danube River, Dniepro River, Don River

We Swedes know damn well that we are all Judeo-Scythians in Sweden:  Swede = Suvi = Saka = Saccari

So there are way to many buildings that fit this mud flood archetype to be taken seriously.  If you want to earn my approval in this quest for validation we have to start with the known knowns, and the known unknowns.  We accept fairly openly that all modern societies simply stumbled into these ancient cities.  Lately there are many being located underwater.  These sites will not be publicised due to the extensive defacing other sites have experienced.  In about 30-50 years we may have more information available to the general public.  At this time however I can say with relative certainty that there was never any such thing as a genuine Tartarian Empire.  These maps makers were mostly fraudsters, much like todays NFT peddlers.  Some of the information is somewhat reliable, but much is also very shady at best.

So the heraldry of Tartaria is another issue.  ancient Heralders would have had a plethora of princes and princesses pouring out of Tartaria with documentation and Pedigrees if they were in fact some sort of imperial power.  Ancient Egypt and Feudal China both had Imperial standards and Family Crests, so this is nothing new to Europe or Eurasia.  Now the Chinese do seem to document much surround the Cherchin, or Jaijin Invaders of the Taklaman and Gobi.  These Indo-European Language nomads from Bactria spread monastic Buddhism to China.  So we do know that the Chinese called the Early proto Mongolian people as Tartars.  In fact the Great Wall of China was known internally as the Great Tartar Wall.  SO there definitely were Tartars, and they even seem to be different from the "Indo-Aryans" (Iran) aka Proto-Indo-Europeans who "invaded" India around 2500 BC.  The Secret History of the Mongols was written sometime around 1200 BC, and documents their conversions.  The ethnic name of Tartar was supplanted by the dynastic tribal name of the Mongols.  So the Tartars converted themselves into Mongols slowly over time.

So with all that said there is more to the story.  Several Mud Flood Survivor candidates are named after my family.  Fer real I myself cannot verify the construction of these building in the way I can verify others.  The advent of red brick does have a known origin point, at least according to known sources.  However I have found evidence  That suggests a potentially earlier date?  We know stone is very hard to date, but bricks have to fired.  This leaves a distinct isotope signature in the brick which can be easily and accurately dated.  So with that said we know the Romans loved red brick as well as concrete.  We have evidence all over of Romans using (non) standard sized ancient bricks, and some (modern) standard sized bricks.  Ancient China invented red bricks around 4400BC.  So there is some credence to the idea that some sort of China base culture swept over the world for a very short period, rapidly constructing civic building and gymnasiums, apartments and Palacial office suites.  Just look at how fast China moves today, building and then rapidly destroying entire massive cities.  

People find brick foundation work all the time and just write it off as some old farmers cellar.  However these uneducated farm dwellers seem not to understand that these bricks were never brought to this location in recorded history.  So in this way much of the undocumented history has been accidentally or non deliberately erased by blundering peasants.  I have found numerous brick columns, and strange constructs in the deep desert of Southern California.  We have inexplicable mineshafts in certain copper rich areas which were never drilled.  They look to be hand chiseled.  Much of the official narrative is obviously wrong, simply because we have not yet filled in all the blanks, with Scientific Discoveries yet.  Archaeology is a field which is beset on all sides by the dragons of plunder and wholesale destruction.  War and economic changes have in fact thoroughly erased much of the cultural legacy of the past.  However the past was shit, everyone was slaves to some piss-head, get over it.  We live today on the shoulders of our ancestors.  Maybe there is no way to prove or disprove any of it and that is the most intriguing aspect to it all.


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## jafa (Aug 26, 2022)

Migniardise said:


> Guys, read the Travela of Marco Polo. Tartary is just what they used to call the Mongolian Empire before the modern day times. Marco Polo named "Chinggis Khan" as the head of the Tartarian Empire in the book. Also in Russia, they call Tartary "the Golden Horde" and say Chinggis Khan was its leader.


True. Except for one thing. Chinggis Khan’s face does not have ANY asian trates according to  some pictures and sculptures left - european face. Also greatest majority of Russian native slavic population has no trates of mongol gemones in the DNA…after 200 hundred years of Mongol-Tatar ruling according to official history.


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## Shabbtai.Tsvi (Sep 16, 2022)

> "There is no more sovereign eloquence than the truth in indignation. It is more difficult for a people to keep than to gain their freedom. The Protests of Truth are always needed. Continually, the right must protest against the fact. There is, in fact, Eternity in the Right. The Mason should be the Priest and Soldier of that Right. If his country should be robbed of her liberties, he should still not despair. The protest of the Right against the Fact persists forever. The robbery of a people never becomes prescriptive. Reclamation of its rights is barred by no length of time. *Warsaw can no more be Tartar than Venice can be Teutonic.* A people may endure military usurpation, and subjugated States kneel to States and wear the yoke, while under the stress of necessity; but when the necessity disappears, if the people is fit to be free, the submerged country will float to the surface and reappear, and Tyranny be adjudged by History to have murdered its victims."



I noticed that Albert Pike made reference to *Tartary*, in "Morals and Dogma" pg. 15.  New user, forgive me if this is not the place to share this. : >


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## PantaOz (Sep 23, 2022)

jafa said:


> True. Except for one thing. Chinggis Khan’s face does not have ANY asian trates according to  some pictures and sculptures left - european face. Also greatest majority of Russian native slavic population has no trates of mongol gemones in the DNA…after 200 hundred years of Mongol-Tatar ruling according to official history.




 




 

 




I would like to see an older image of him as non-Asian... but I couldn't find any earlier than 20th century!


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## Daniel (Sep 23, 2022)

SH Archive - History's greatest con job: the life of Genghis Khan is a work of fiction. Made up by Baavuday Tsend Gun in 1908.

SH Archive - Tartary - an Empire hidden in history. It was bigger than Russia once...


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## PantaOz (Sep 23, 2022)

Daniel said:


> SH Archive - History's greatest con job: the life of Genghis Khan is a work of fiction. Made up by Baavuday Tsend Gun in 1908.
> 
> SH Archive - Tartary - an Empire hidden in history. It was bigger than Russia once...


Thanks for the help,  mate... it seems that the archive of this site is HUGE! Hmmm... so we have European looking Ghenghis Khan from an imaginary land...  this is just confirming my statement... I know only one thing for sure that I know nothing.


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## Ash_Williams (Sep 24, 2022)

New info on Tartaria PUTIN declassified the TARTARIA archives. The official history is FALSE

PUTIN declassified the TARTARIA archives. The official history is FALSE​Geography, Hidden History, Lemuria (Mu)


PUTIN declassified the TARTARIA archives. The official history is FALSE


> _“At school we are taught that before the advent of Christianity we were all almost wild people. However, many facts contradict these fictions. For example, in the Encyclopedia Britannica of 1771, the land of our ancestors is described as the largest and most developed state called the Great Tartarus. There are many documents and maps that support this. Some of them are in the Russian Geographical Society. These and other artifacts, such as the Chandar plate, testify to us that the level of development of the civilization of our ancestors was incomparably higher than what we learn, as official history tries to convince us. This level is even higher than the current level of development of our civilization.”_




_From Encyclopedia Britannica, first edition, Volume 3, Edinburgh, 1771, p. 887:_


> “Tartaria, a huge country in the northern part of Asia, bordering Siberia in the north and west, called the Great Tartary. Tartars living south of Muscovy and Siberia are called Astrakhan, Cherkasy and Dagestan, living in the north-west of the Caspian Sea, called Kalmyk Tartar and which occupy the territory between Siberia and the Caspian Sea; Uzbek Tartar and Mongols, who live north of Persia and India, and finally Tibetan, living to the north-west from China. “




How did the Great Tartarus disappear from geographical maps in the 18th century? And why has the total falsification of world history become possible?
The Moscow Kremlin website reports in 2017:
Vladimir Putin met with the former President of Tatarstan, now the State Councilor of the Republic of Tatarstan, Mintimer Shaimiev, to present him with a gift – the map of Tartarus, made by the seventeenth-century Dutch cartographer Willem Blau. VIDEO
WHAT IS TARTAR?
What is the significance of Putin’s gift, observers wonder. The Dutch cartographer Willem Janszon Blau, whose work Putin presented as a gift to Shaimiev, was the greatest specialist in Tartarus.
On the gold-framed map presented to Shaimiev, the territory of northeastern Eurasia from the Volga and the Caspian Sea from the west to the eastern ocean belongs to Tartarus. At the same time, the countries of Siberia, Central Asia and the Far East are shown to be under the control of the great inn. This, in particular, is reported by the TASS agency. The map also shows the borders of Tartarus, the genealogy of the great Han temples of Chingiz, as well as Little Tartary (Crimea), Great or Asian Tartarus, Tartaria, Desert Tartarus, Chagataisky ulus, Turkestan, the Kingdom of China and Old Tartarus.
According to the Encyclopedia Britannica of 1771, Tartaria was a huge country. The encyclopedia offers the following definition of this gigantic state, plunged into the darkness of centuries: “Tartaria, a huge country in northern Asia, bordering Siberia in the north and west, called the Great Tartarus. The Tartars who live south of Moscow and Siberia are called Astrakhan, Cherkask and Dagestan, those who live in the northwestern Caspian Sea are called Kalmyk Tatars and occupy the territory between Siberia and the Caspian Sea; Uzbek Tatars and Mongols, who live north of Persia and India, and finally Tibetans, who live in northwest China. ”
Business Online asked its experts what such an unusual gift presented to Shaimiev could mean and what it means.
Damir Iskhakov – Chief Researcher of the Ethnological Monitoring Center of the Institute of History of the Academy of Sciences of the Republic of Tatarstan: There are many such maps showing Tartarus – Little Tartarus and the Great Tartarus. Until the eighteenth century, European cartographers used this term.
At school we are taught that before the advent of Christianity we were all almost wild people. However, many facts contradict these fictions. For example, in the Encyclopedia Britannica of 1771, the land of our ancestors is described as the largest and most developed state called the Great Tartarus. There are many documents and maps that support this. Some of them are in the Russian Geographical Society. These and other artifacts, such as the Chandar plate, testify to us that the level of development of the civilization of our ancestors was incomparably higher than what we learn, as official history tries to convince us. This level is even higher than the current level of development of our civilization.
Why did they hide the plates from Tărtăria?
Our past – the Great Tartarus
The past of the Aryan Slavs is the past of our earthly civilization. There is already a lot of truthful information! You just have to look for them and popularize them as much as possible among all the peoples who want to know the truth…
The movie “Great Tartary – Empire of the Russian” tells the true story.
The Great Tartarus was and remains the greatest power in the world, which the world’s elites are trying to break into small pieces – specific principalities that would be easier to conquer to destroy the population…
Putin declassified the Tartar archives
Original by: Posted by u/One-Ad6450


Notes on the Language of Tartaria:
Yes, and no.
To peel back this onion you need to “un-babble” the church’s counterintelligence and other assorted misdirection.
The tablets are not in Hungarian per-se, they’re in the language modern Hungarian is based on which is now being called “magyar”.
The name itself is somewhat tongue-in-cheek. This is not it’s real name, the name used by the people actually speaking the language, it’s the label that is used to obfuscate what it really is and to hide it in plain sight. But, we will use the term for now since it’s easy to Google.
The language base called Magyar is the linguistic origin of Sumerian, Etruscan, Dacian “first civilization” peoples as well as many others. Sounds ridiculous given the timeline we are all indoctrinated with, but it’s true:
LÁSZLÓ BOTOS
Magyar-Etruscan affiliations
_“The presence of the Magyar language at such an extensive geographic spread going into ancient times is the proof of a once unified world-language of which the longest surviving remnant is the Magyar. “_
Also, please don’t get hung up on the modern idea of Hungary, Romania, Poland, Ukraine, etc. – these are all blinds to hide the common ancestry of these peoples and languages, what we would modernly call the Sauromatian peoples of Scythia. These people have been mentioned before on the forums and are a key to understanding the war that’s been waging between the old and new factions. That’s a whole ‘nother can of worms.
Hungarian prehistory – Wikipedia
_“Most extant chronicles show that the earliest works contained no information on the history of the Hungarians before their conversion to Christianity in the 11th century.[35] The only exception is the Gesta Hungarorum, which is the earliest extant Hungarian chronicle, whose principal subject is the Magyars’ pagan past.[37]”_
The Gesta is one of the few surviving original texts of these peoples. Or at least that’s still accessible. Its a link back to the truth before the propaganda war began.
In any case, the Tartaria tablets actually mention and show the “Sumerian” god Enki (Aquarius), that’s what the little guy with the fish tail is standing next to the goat (Capricorn). Also note the little sprig of wheat between the two, which is the same as shown in the “Sumerian” seal on the right. Same language. Different parts of the world. Different artistic flare.
  
There were several types of alphabet used on this base language depending on the part of the world you were in and the time period. Coelbren was one of the earliest and was used for trade throughout the British isles, Mediterranean, Turkey, and North America all the way through China. There was also more than one form of coelbren, one of which we now call ogham. These are not “Celtic”, there was no such thing as Celtic. Total myth created in the 1800s to fill a hole caused by hiding the other groups. A modern term and idea and part of the great misdirection.
In the above Alan Wilson link he mentions the “Cimmerians” using coelbren. Cimmerians are the same word as Sumerians. Pretty obvious if you just say them out loud.
All forms of Coelbren can be read omnidirectionally as can it’s cousin Cuneiform. They can both be translated with the same base language. Its useful as a trade language as everyone sitting around the table can read the same document at the same time without the need to pass the paper around or flip it.
Now, is this the later Tartarian language referenced earlier? Yes, kinda. Magyar is the base of that language, but they were using a different common alphabet later in the empire. Coelbren had long been replaced with the advent of printing. What you’re seeing is an evolution in a single language, not necessarily different languages.
Also, just a fun aside. The pretty “nordic pagan” tattoo symbols so in vogue these days are a multidirectional *sigiled* form of the coelbren/ogham on the right (book of Ballymote). Right in front of everyone’s faces, yet no one is literate enough to read them.


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## LyteTouch (Oct 2, 2022)

Ash_Williams said:


> New info on Tartaria PUTIN declassified the TARTARIA archives. The official history is FALSE
> 
> PUTIN declassified the TARTARIA archives. The official history is FALSE​Geography, Hidden History, Lemuria (Mu)
> 
> ...


Its an interesting history thats dropping in on big $ billion shows like Amazon Prime's Ring of Power.  If Tartaria was fake then why the interest to destroy it?  The Freemasons had an interest in politically destroying it and rebuilding the region in the mid 19th century.  I have the magazine issue The Freemasons Magazine and Masonic Mirror 1865-04-15 as admitted by them.  It was connected to a large amount of other things.  It beats both the narratives coming from the Kremlin and the declassification from the CIA.


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## wisdomkeeper (Dec 21, 2022)

Call it Tartaria, Call them the past reset civilization, call them the romans/greeks, call it Atlantis, Gods intelligent design, Titans, Giants, Days of Noah, Days of Jesus, Babylon.  Call it mystical/magical/angelically manifested on a higher plane and somehow bound into form and matter to this realm. All we really know is something very miraculous is responsible for  whats left behind of these building that stand all around, and below us, across the world. We know our history is a fabrication, none of what was taught in mainstream education can be trusted at this point. We have no ability match or even come close to what was done in the past. Our understanding, engineering and construction practices even now falls way short and we lost the spiritual and geometrical knowledge to the purpose and the function of why build to this precision and with this sacred geometry flower of life type template or baseline scale to the entire structure. It must resonate between all seen and unseen dimensions as the flower of life sacred geometry pattern, that can give rise to all other geometric patters like its the fabric or canvas that the creation is formed from.

Not too sure but I think were going to figure something very important out about this topic now that many people can see through the illusion and are digging deep for answers. They did a good job hiding the past and destroying the records but they won't have caught everything. Just a matter of time before somebody who is searching finds something they're looking for and blows this topic wide open and  destroys the fictional reality thats been cast upon us. 

Seek To Know Truth So The Truth May Guide You  Onward


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## Jd755 (Dec 23, 2022)

wisdomkeeper said:


> All we really know is something very miraculous is responsible for whats left behind of these building that stand all around, and below us, across the world.


Pick a building. I guarantee its built to level and plumb ergo humans built them.


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## Nick Weech (Dec 31, 2022)

dreamtime said:


> View attachment 18703
> _Tartary, a vast country in the northern parts of Asia... This is called Great Tarary (1771, Encyclopedia Britannica)_​
> As we got many new users during the last months, some from Youtube, I think it's time to start a thread on this topic.
> 
> ...


It ties in with idea of the megalithic civilisation I first heard via Mick Harper. Mostly buried among dross


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## wisdomkeeper (Jan 3, 2023)

I wish I could read Russian and also gain access to their foreign records. Nothing found in the west thats allegedly translated to english and released to the narrative aint going to be legit. They just make all kinds of nonsense claims that they say Russia is doing or saying placing their own narratives as the translation.

Tartaria is found on countless maps from different parts of the world, it appears as commonly known as any other also mentioned in many writings as well. Its definitely something much more then a myth at the very least.

I remember when science claimed the giant squid was a myth as well. And that men walked on the moon, that they know the universe is 14 billion years old and once gigantic lizards walked the earth in a made up time so ancient that know person could comprehend so a time frame or know anything about it, were it even fact.


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## jafa (Jan 3, 2023)

Breakthrough! In October 2022 THE FIRST TIME IN MODERN HISTORY in Kazan (Russia) the official international scientific seminar (organized by the Russian Academy of Science) was held with the following agenda: “From Tartaria Empire to Peter’s Russian Empire”. This is THE FIRST TIME the official science put a name Tartaria on the map. Not Tatars… TARTARIA. This is trully historical event. Apologies, there is no English translation, but Google translator can help. There are slso few videos on the subject

Международный научный семинар "От империй Тартарии к Российской империи Петра". Открытие

_View: https://youtu.be/cd-7IMBGsOg_


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## Jd755 (Jan 3, 2023)

Using Google translate we get this.



> International scientific seminar "From the empires of Tartaria to the Russian Empire of Peter". Opening to Official KFU
> 
> December 07, 2022
> 
> ...



"Within the framework of a grant allocated by the Foundation for the history of the Fatherland".
Call me cynical but an outcome guaranteed sort of limiting device it seems to me.


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## Silveryou (Jan 3, 2023)

Jd755 said:


> "Within the framework of a grant allocated by the Foundation for the history of the Fatherland".
> Call me cynical but an outcome guaranteed sort of limiting device it seems to me.


By the look of it, it seems more like some kind of 'answer' to Fomenko's New Chronology. A sort of late attempt to adjust things after having ridiculed them for many decades.


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## Jd755 (Jan 3, 2023)

Silveryou said:


> By the look of it, it seems more like some kind of 'answer' to Fomenko's New Chronology. A sort of late attempt to adjust things after having ridiculed them for many decades.


Until its translated we will never know.


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## ViniB (Jan 4, 2023)

Jd755 said:


> Pick a building. I guarantee its built to level and plumb ergo humans built them.


Maybe. I'm more interested on where tf all the mud that buried countless buildings across our realm came from, and truth be told, cultural layer my ass! that's the dumbest mainstream explanation ever


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## Jd755 (Jan 4, 2023)

ViniB said:


> Maybe. I'm more interested on where tf all the mud that buried countless buildings across our realm came from,


I am more interested in the now defunct process of mud burial. How it was allegedly able to bury countless buildings in good enough order they are dug out, but never back to original ground level, and turned to new uses.
A drawing/painting digger account or two would be most welcome.
As it is there is theory put forward by  a Russian on livejournal who had no clue what he was taking photographs of.
Oh an endless endless chatter about windows and light wells, doorways in cellars and basements.


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## jafa (Jan 5, 2023)

jafa said:


> Breakthrough! In October 2022 THE FIRST TIME IN MODERN HISTORY in Kazan (Russia) the official international scientific seminar (organized by the Russian Academy of Science) was held with the following agenda: “From Tartaria Empire to Peter’s Russian Empire”. This is THE FIRST TIME the official science put a name Tartaria on the map. Not Tatars… TARTARIA. This is trully historical event. Apologies, there is no English translation, but Google translator can help. There are slso few videos on the subject
> 
> Международный научный семинар "От империй Тартарии к Российской империи Петра". Открытие
> 
> _View: https://youtu.be/cd-7IMBGsOg_



They started to quote Tartaria in school programs. It is already in school history books in Russia 6-7 grades: 
_View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YaoC8MCed3A_


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## Silveryou (Jan 5, 2023)

jafa said:


> They started to quote Tartaria in school programs. It is already in school history books in Russia 6-7 grades:
> _View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YaoC8MCed3A_



Here is the translation of the transcription provided by Youtube. Notice how the name Fomenko is mentioned as a joke:

Hello dear subscribers and
just viewers of my channel immediately want
thank everyone who supported me
kind words in the previous video
recognition of the empire of tartaria is common
achievement of many authors who
have been studying this subject for many years.
unfortunately almost no one
alternative bloggers including those
who were not mentioned in the comments
paid attention to this topic
Are they really the subject
support one thing go to
Armory Chamber of the Moscow Kremlin and
making a video about the Globe is another matter
look for confirmation that the Great
Tartaria was an empire or a state
some showed me that the name
video is incorrect and this seminar is not
was the recognition of the Great Tartary perhaps
Of course it's my fault and I didn't explain well
situations where scientists collect
press conference is invited by the leading media
countries later at this conference
declare literally the following we are 200 years old
wrong about history
Mongol-Tatar yoke of nomads
was and was the Empire of Tartaria and so
friends you will never hear this
history correction will be gradual i
I will even tell you more this correction already
is in full swing a little later I will bring
examples
thanks to everyone who responded to my
request and threw off the necessary examples from
screenshots indeed while we were sleeping
the word Tartaria has already got into school
history textbooks while interesting
what is written in the textbook for the sixth grade
the very same golden order of European
maps were listed as Tartarus or Tartaria
And in the history textbook for the seventh grade
already another interpretation I quote on the maps
At that time, Russia was designated as a country
barbarian dash Tartaria in quotation marks
however the tutorial was also placed
historical map on which there are two
words Tartary You can even find the word
Circassian tartars Although, of course, in the very
the textbook is difficult but this word is possible
see also in the atlas of history for
seventh grade was inserted part of the card
Remezov drawing map of Siberia with
inscription in Old Russian Great
Tartaria So what do you want further
claim that Tartaria was not
recognized as official science but the facts
they say otherwise, I understand perfectly
what's in the comments to the video to me
they will probably write literally the following Well
the word Tartaria appeared in textbooks
so what yes no friends my word
Tartaria for historians is very long
time was the worst curse
if at some conference or
seminar, someone from the audience or
journalists God forbid asked what
what is Tartaria, then historians literally
began to lose their temper
curses sometimes even obscenities and
remember that all cards of starters
this is the machinations of British intelligence
the word Tartaria did not just appear in
textbooks is the implementation of the plan for
gradual substitution of history Today I
I want to show how it has evolved
concept of the so-called
Mongol-Tatar yoke for the last 100
with little years to start let's
consider a 1917 history textbook
released in the city of Petrograd, that is,
under tsarist rule, the Bolsheviks on that
moment has not yet had time to write your
history textbook chapter 11 is called
Tatar conquest
a terrible disaster befell the Russian land
in the first half of the 13th century it was
The invasion of nomadic Tatars who
conquered Rus' itself
emergence of the Russian state
constantly suffered from the steppes
migrated from Asia to South Russian
steppes but never before the Tatars nomads
were such a huge number
they never spilled all over
the Russian plain never claimed
here the Tatars left their dominance
Central Asia from the steppes of Mongolia one
Tatar Khan, nicknamed Genghis Khan
have the Great Khan united under his
power separate wild tribes of Mongolia
and led them to conquer neighboring countries
having subjugated several
Asian states Genghis Khan moved
their hordes to the west intending
go to Europe here on the page there
image of a Tatar warrior let's
remember what he looked like in the future
I'll do some comparison now
I will quote an reader on the history of the USSR with
ancient times until the end of the 18th century
1989 It's almost over
Soviet Union chapter 5 wrestling russian
people and other peoples of our country with
Mongol-Tatar invasion in the 12th century
Mongolian tribes lived in
Central Asia more backward northern
forest tribes were engaged in hunting and
Angler while southern steppe nomadic
cattle breeding leaders of the Mongolian
Khan tribes and their nuker vigilantes
quickly enriched themselves, they owned huge
herds of horses, camels and sheep
the economy of the noble Mongols worked
ordinary community members Black people in quotation marks
and slave prisoners of war in 1206
the leader of one tribe united
Mongol-Tatars, under their rule, having collected
kurultai i.e. eat Mongolian
the feudal lords proclaimed Timuchin theirs
Khan under the name of Genghis Khan soon
conquests began
Genghis Khan and his generals Mongolian
the army was divided into tens of hundreds
thousands combined into tens of thousands
darkness in quotation marks hence the expression
mother of countless
the peoples who created
centers of ancient civilization in Asia and
Eastern Europe standing on more
high level of public and
cultural development than the conquerors
campaigns enriching the feudal elite
tore the Mongols away from peaceful labor and
hindered the progressive development
mongolian society end quote i
I don't think you can read further
everything is clear here
attention that if in the textbook of 1917
it was about Tatars here already Tatars
replaced by the Mongols and began to use
term Mongol-Tatars And now I
I will quote the textbook History of Russia for
sixth grade Edition Prosveshchenie Moscow
2016 chapter 15
Mongol Empire changes
political map of the world education
power of Genghis Khan from ancient times
endless steppes north of China
inhabited by various kindred tribes and
peoples Mongols Tatars Kereites and others
natural conditions of these steppes
predetermined the main occupation
nomadic peoples living here
cattle breeding during brutal wars
the Mongols at the beginning of the 13th century succeeded and
Unite neighboring nomadic tribes during
these wars, almost all Tatars were
exterminated, but the Mongols themselves became
known in China and then in other
Asian European countries under the name
Tatar historians sometimes call them
Mongol-Tatars at the convened in 1206
congress kurultai of the Mongolian nobility
Nyonov is a talented commander
energetic cunning and merciless
Lord Timuchin was proclaimed
Great Khan and named Genghis Khan then
there is a heavenly khan it meant
meant the creation of a unified Mongolian
states definition mongols in
quotation marks gradually spread to
all the tribes that were part of the original
the core of the Mongolian state chapter 18
formation of the Golden Horde
returning from a hike in the central
Europe
1242-1243 bloodworm became the ruler
own state originally
which was an ulus of the Mongol Empire
shortly after the death of Batu in 125
year this Ulus received full
independence later Behind the state
the name created by Batu was fixed
Golden Horde this state included
Northern Black Sea Coast Northern Crimea
Caucasus middle and lower Volga Urals
Western Siberia Khorezm at the beginning of the 14th century
The Golden Horde was one of the largest
states of the world in the Golden Horde
included many tribes and peoples Oni
were both sedentary and nomadic
life subservient to the nomadic population
supplied horses to the conquerors
were milk agricultural population
gave them most of her harvest
Mongolian nobility appropriated the best
lands and pastures at the head of the Golden Horde
Khan stood this title was carried by descendants
Genghis Khan Genghis Khan belonged to
all the lands and populations his power
relied on a huge army and
numerous officials end quote
Pay attention to how the substitution went
Now Rus' has attacked Muscovy Hello
everyone is not the darkness of the darkness of the nomadic Tatars, but
the whole Mongol Empire is the same
An empire that has no
traces in Mongolia neither cities nor
written monuments or looted
wealth, no graves of Genghis Khan, nothing
they couldn't find it in Mongolia
sometimes in the comments they present
claims they say I don't know history friends
my I remember the story According to the Soviet
textbooks but logically the more
time passes after
historical event the more in it
distortion occurs Well, either
Accordingly, this story somehow
how it will be corrected
go on And then gradually
the concept of the Mongol Empire will
be replaced by the concept of the empire of Tartary i
I want to show you an article from 2013
called the Legacy of the Golden Horde in
European cartography
15-18 centuries author Igor Konstantinovich
Fomenko No, this is not that Fomenko one of
authors of the new chronology is a historian
Senior Candidate of Historical Sciences
Cartography Department Researcher
state historical museum
it’s interesting that in his article he
although he talks about the Mongol Empire about
Golden Horde but all its sources
mention tartaria and here he is absolutely
correctly translates the king of tartaria king
Tartaria mentions Tartarus, that is, here
no complaints about him
no distortion except the most important
for some reason, instead of the empire of Tartaria
the historian believes that it was the Golden
Horde Well, wait, the Golden Horde has ceased
exist at the end of the 15th century A Empire
Tartaria on maps exists until the 19th century
As far as I understand it will
there is a gradual adjustment
history concept Mongol Empire and
The Golden Horde will gradually cease
exist and instead of it there will be an Empire
tartaria at least want it
hope there won't be another
distortion of history
With artifacts of the great tartaria too
there will be no problems for example coins
After all, it has long been known that all coins
found in Russia with
Arabic script is by default assigned to
Golden Horde, for example, coins can
see on the site goskatalak.ru in the search
enter the phrase Golden Horde and
find more than 12 thousand exhibits
order note here there is a number
coins that are marked as not
definable but still worth it Gold
Horde, that is, Even those Coins that are not
managed to determine still refer to
Golden Horde to that state which
not on any historical map A
now let's go back to the image
Tatar warrior in the Soviet textbook from
1917 and After all, this is how they portrayed
Mongol-Tatars in old Soviet films
war were wearing oriental robes But what
we see in our time in our time
Mongol-Tatars depict iron armor
in iron helmets
for example in the TV series The Golden Horde in the movie
2017 Legend of the Great Kolovrat
Khan is generally depicted with a dragon on his back
and on the tent by the advisers of the Great Khan
are Chinese and again looking at this
the image arises the thought Well, what are
these are nomads, of course I understand that
after such films, historians usually
deny and say that none
there is no historical Truth there, but on the other
side A historian, how to know how
everything was actually these films
create an image if in the middle of the 20th century
the image of the Mongol Tatars was in the form of backward
nomads who won only
most now it's an image
a serious empire that had mines
iron processing and technical
equipment was high enough
level, otherwise how could this Empire
conquer most of Eurasia
thank you all for watching today
this video please vote for
this video and give your opinion on
content until the next release


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## Brett (Saturday at 11:05 PM)

trismegistus said:


> There is also the matter of history discussed in the early 19th century - from American Antiquities and Discoveries in the West, 1832


I’d like to share some research that pertains to this, because I find the perspectives of those alive at the turn of the 19th century intriguing.
Philip Gatch (1751-1834) was a very early settler in the Northwest Territory in what is now the state of Ohio. Originally from Maryland, this Methodist preacher purchased land in the NW Territory and moved his family west after he was maimed in Baltimore over his opposition to slavery. He ultimately acquired and settled on land near the confluence of the Little Miami and the East Fork rivers, in what became a part of present day Milford, Ohio. On his land were numerous earthworks, mounds, and enclosures that he discusses in his papers.


> Mr. Gatch observes: This beautiful land has been a hidden space to civilization for many ages. There are traces in many parts of ancient fortifications, and other works, which could not have been made by the Indians, but by a people much farther advanced in civilization than they now are. The growths of timber upon these works, consisting of mounds and elevated embankments, seem to be the same as on the ground generally, which shows their great antiquity. What people or race constructed these works is not now known, and probably never will be. Some think these formations were before the flood, but this notion, it appears to me, is refuted, by timbers being found in the earth at a great depth. I saw timber that was found on digging a well on high land; also, by salt-water shells being found in high places.
> -Sketch of Rev. Philip Gatch



He elaborates on his thoughts in an essay written in 1829.


> America was certainly settled before the Indians inhabited it: the vast enclosures by walls and the mounds raised some of them to a great h[e]ight; which are made with great exactness, assure us that a laborious and ingenious People, once inhabited this country.
> I am inclined to think that the Chinese & Tartars once dwelt here: the Chinese are a laborious people possessed of mechanical ingenuity. The Indians know nothing of these establishments, as a man informed me that lived with them many years. History says that China surpasses all other countries in roads and canals, the great canal that connects Pekin with Nankin is 500 miles long; there is the great wall, which they built along the whole of their frontiers, to preserve them from the intrusions of the Tartars (who were a troublesome people)[;] it is said to be 1500 miles in length, built of brick and stone 25 feet high and so thick that six horsemen can ride abreast on the top of the wall. The Tartars have been the enemies of the Chinese, and by a breach made in their wall they have interrupted them; but they are now divided and many of them have been destroyed. The Chinese are very cautious of let[t]ing any other people among them. And my thoughts are that the Chinese and Tartars once lived in America, and the Tartars so harassed the Chinese that they left this country, and the Tartars followed them for the sake of plundering them.
> -Untitled essay by Rev. Philip Gatch



Gatch, who was admittedly not at all a historian, seems to with his writings propose that the Chinese and Tartars both migrated from the Americas to Asia, and that the “Indian” inhabitants which the European settlers encountered were remnants of the Lost Tribes of Israel who came after the Chinese and Tartars moved on.


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## trismegistus (Sunday at 5:27 AM)

Brett said:


> I’d like to share some research that pertains to this, because I find the perspectives of those alive at the turn of the 19th century intriguing.
> Philip Gatch (1751-1834) was a very early settler in the Northwest Territory in what is now the state of Ohio. Originally from Maryland, this Methodist preacher purchased land in the NW Territory and moved his family west after he was maimed in Baltimore over his opposition to slavery. He ultimately acquired and settled on land near the confluence of the Little Miami and the East Fork rivers, in what became a part of present day Milford, Ohio. On his land were numerous earthworks, mounds, and enclosures that he discusses in his papers.
> 
> 
> ...



I am curious what type of information these authors from the early 1800s had that led them to conclude that Tartars and Chinese were over in America.  It's been a little while since I've read Priest's book you quoted from me, but if I recall he seemed to think that Tartars expanded from the steppes to America, in the process wiping out the mound builders.  This author seems to have the opposite approach, but with the same general cast of characters.  I'd like to know how common this was in literature of those days, and more importantly why isn't it discussed now?


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## Brett (Sunday at 2:35 PM)

trismegistus said:


> I am curious what type of information these authors from the early 1800s had that led them to conclude that Tartars and Chinese were over in America.  It's been a little while since I've read Priest's book you quoted from me, but if I recall he seemed to think that Tartars expanded from the steppes to America, in the process wiping out the mound builders.  This author seems to have the opposite approach, but with the same general cast of characters.  I'd like to know how common this was in literature of those days, and more importantly why isn't it discussed now?


It is interesting that the cast of characters is the same. One possibility that would apply to Gatch would be that he, being born to religious Prussian parents, had been taught various histories in the home. Upon finding that his land had been heavily inhabited by a prehistoric culture, he filled in the blanks with his personal (limited?) knowledge of the world.

It also seems that based on the commentary in the essay I shared, written by an academic descendant of Gatch, he had an annotated version of the Bible containing various content/insights that surprises the academic. I am neither Methodist nor Mormon, but I must point out that Gatch’s (and many others’ assumably) discussion of the lost tribe theory pre-dates The Book of Mormon. I suspect many of these theories (lost tribes, Chinese/Tartars, pre/post-flood, etc.) were common religious literature of the time which led to discussion amongst the religious circles.

And I specify religious because the secular parties of the time seemed hellbent on destroying all the evidence. This is why I think  Gatch and Priest are much closer to the truth than those that proposed primitive people built the works who were later annihilated by a comet or other peoples - why rush to destroy the latter?


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## trismegistus (Sunday at 2:44 PM)

Brett said:


> . I suspect many of these theories (lost tribes, Chinese/Tartars, pre/post-flood, etc.) were common religious literature of the time which led to discussion amongst the religious circles.



I suspect something similar. So the next step is to find those sources of religious education that taught these things as some type of truth. Was this a commonly held opinion or was this seen as heretical? Since it was the printed word in an era where only the well connected elite had access to the printing press, I’d imagine it would have to have been somewhat acceptable discourse in order to get published.

I have found a lot of sources referencing Tartaria in older texts but I would say an overwhelming majority of them, if not all, are educational in nature not religious. It seems we have a missing piece of the puzzle.


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## Jd755 (Sunday at 2:49 PM)

trismegistus said:


> Since it was the printed word in an era where only the well connected elite had access to the printing press, I’d imagine it would have to have been somewhat acceptable discourse in order to get published.


According to my 1897 encyclopedia the first printing press in the Americas was established at Cambridge Massachusetts in 1638.
By established it reads to me either a physdical machine inc type was imported or the machine was built locally and the type imported.


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## trismegistus (Sunday at 3:20 PM)

Attempting to research Josiah Priest (author of American Antiquities) leads mostly to a dead end, specifically how someone who they claim has little education had the influence to get their books published and distributed.  
Wiki certainly seems to have a narrative ready to explain this guy:


> *Josiah Priest* (1788–1861) was an American nonfiction writer of the early 19th century.  His books and pamphlets, which presented both standard and speculative history and archaeology sold in the thousands. Although Priest appears to have been poorly educated, he attempted to portray himself as an authority in his books.  Priest is often identified as one of the creators of pseudoscientific and pseudohistoric literature.[1]  Although his work was widely read and several of his works were published in multiple editions, his books were characterized by theories that were used to justify the violent domination over both the Native American and African-American peoples.  Priest's works were among the most overtly racist of his time.  Priest's offensive works help set the stage for the  Trail of Tears and the defense of slavery that contributed to the conflicts of the American Civil War.



Oh no, it turns out I've been discussing the _most racist author_ of his time! I've never read his other book about Slavery, I'd imagine it has some takes I will likely disagree with (not that I take his words about Tatars and the mound builders as gospel either, but I digress) but this is about as clear a hit job on any past historical figure you can find on wiki.

The historical gatekeepers appear to treat Rev. Gatch much more favorably, but interestingly enough his thoughts on early american history are never mentioned on his wiki page, not even as "pseudohistory" like they do with Priest.  I suppose what is important to know about him is that unlike the notorious racist Priest he actually promoted the freedom of slaves.  

So we have a Reverend who loved slaves, and a man named Priest who wasn't a religious figure who hated slaves.  That is about as much as the modern historical narrative will tell you about those two.  What is missing is how these two men reached the same conclusion about early American history with having any real connection (Gatch died around the same time Priest published American Antiquities).  

The only connection I can find inbetween the lines is both men frequently traveled all over the country - Priest did so in an attempt to write his books, and Gatch was on the methodist preacher circuit.  Both clearly spent time in Ohio, as that is where much of their reasoning on the past is based.  Were they talking to the same people in those areas?  Were there people in Ohio who had word of mouth traditions that lasted until the 19th century?


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## Brett (Sunday at 3:20 PM)

trismegistus said:


> Was this a commonly held opinion or was this seen as heretical?


I don’t want to dwell on Philip Gatch too much longer in this thread, but I would say that he was never viewed as heretical by his contemporaries. He was a key figure in establishing the town of Milford and the constitution of the State of Ohio. He was appointed without his knowledge or consent to be a Justice of the Peace which required establishing local and county courts, which he reluctantly accepted. He was certainly held in very high esteem.



trismegistus said:


> It seems we have a missing piece of the puzzle.


It is certainly a route I am pursuing, that being the personal papers of individuals who were among the first to settle in the Northwest Territory; particularly religious men who saw it their calling to share and be humble yet outspoken.


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## trismegistus (Sunday at 4:07 PM)

I'm taking another dive into google books this morning, specifically for the time periods 1750-1840 to see if there are other works that emulate the thoughts of Priest and Gatch.  Frustratingly, most are in other languages and my system of translation is shoddy at best, I'll continue to update as I find more.  However I did still find some interesting things about Tartaria (though not explicitly connected to American settlement or origins), which I think help support the idea that Tartaria was indeed a _nation_ with Kings, armies, and social structure contrary to the narrative that they were just nomadic steppe horse riders.

On Tartars and the destruction of Moscow:






Apparently Russians owed tribute to the Tartarian Emperor...this doesn't really support the narrative that they were a loose association of tribes.  "If you don't pay me I will send 100,000 horse lords to your door" sounds like a threat that only a great empire could make on another.  

Another interesting nugget - though admittedly someone who is actually familiar with Latin can hopefully translate this better, as I am relying on a machine to do it for me.

Index Rerum in Apocalypsi Revelata. Ex operibus posthumis Emanuelis Swedenborgii. [Edited by J. A. Tulk.]







> _Great Tartary is described in Asia from speech with spirits and angels, who are from there; and that with them the Word is ancient, n.  11_



This book appears to be theological in nature, so its no surprise that this definition made its way in here.  I am curious why Tartaria is an ancient word for "speech with angels who are from Great Tartary", if the translation is correct.


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## dreamtime (Sunday at 6:33 PM)

trismegistus said:


> help support the idea that Tartaria was indeed a _nation_ with Kings, armies, and social structure contrary to the narrative that they were just nomadic steppe horse riders.



When it comes to Tartary, it's one of the cases where the current official narrative ignores the previous official narrative. All old books I came across describe Tartary in the same way they described any other country on earth - with rulers, kingdoms, politics, culture, etc.

And those books seldom differ in their details, it's all pretty coherent. They were not described as an advanced civilization, quite the contrary, they were seen as pretty "wild" or rough.

Then at one point there was a break, possibly related to Russia conquering them, and the Russian Revolution as suggested by KD here: SH Archive - Tartary - an Empire hidden in history. It was bigger than Russia once...

The Romanovs seized Independent Tartary in 1868. With the tumultuous October Revolution only a couple decades later, the historical 'truth' somehow got lost.

Suppressing the narrative of Tartary as a normal country, vast but not special, mostly served the Russians. Question is why the West followed without objecting. Could be related to the inertia during the Cold War where every action was met with a reaction and after the fall of the Soviet Union, no one cared anymore.


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## RedNeckGoober (Sunday at 8:10 PM)

trismegistus said:


> On Tartars and the destruction of Moscow:
> 
> Apparently Russians owed tribute to the Tartarian Emperor...this doesn't really support the narrative that they were a loose association of tribes.  "If you don't pay me I will send 100,000 horse lords to your door" sounds like a threat that only a great empire could make on another.


Not only that, "I'll send 100,000 horse lords to your house even if it's 2,000 miles away and it'll only take me 2 months"

*cough*


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## trismegistus (Monday at 2:38 AM)

Another book diving find:

A king I can't find reference of anywhere else except this single source.

The Acts and Monuments of John Foxe: a New and Complete Edition: with a Preliminary Dissertation, by the Rev. George Townsend ...



> _A. D. 1230. Thus the Christians being driven out of Asia by the sultans and Turks, yet the said Turks and sultans did not long enjoy their victory. For eftsoons the Lord stirred up against them the Tartarians, who breaking into Asia by the ports of Caspius, subdued divers parts of Asia, namely about Comana, Colchis, Iberia, Albania, &c. These Tartarians, as they had got many captives in their wars, so for gain they used to ship them over customably to Alexandria in Egypt to be sold; which servants and captives Melechsala the great sultan was glad to buy to serve him in his wars. Which captains and servants after they had continued a certain space in Egypt, and through their valiant service grew in favour and estimation with the said Melechsala, and began more to increase in number and strength; at length they slew him, and took to themselves the name and kingdom of the sultan. And thus ceased the stock of Saracon and Saladin aforementioned, which continued in Egypt about the space as is said of_





> _A. D. 1240. After the death of Melechsala, the army of these aforesaid rascals and captives set up to themselves a king of their own company, whom they called *Turquemenius.* Who, to fill up the number of their company that it should not diminish, devised this order, to get or to buy Christian men's children, taken young from their parents, and the mother's lap; whom they used so to bring up, to make them to deny Christ, and to be circumcised, and instructed in Mahomet's law, and afterward to be trained in the feats of war; and these were called Mamalukes. Among whom this was their order, that none might be advanced to be king but out of their own number, or else chosen by them; neither that any should be made knights or horsemen, but only the children of Christians which should deny Christ before, called Mamalukes. Also it was among them provided, that to this dignity neither Saracens nor Jews should be admitted. Item, That the succession thereof should not descend to the children and offspring of these Mamalukes. Also that the succession of the crown should not descend to the children of the aforesaid sultan, but should go by voice and election. *The Tartarians, with Turquemenius their king, about this time obtained Turquia, that is Asia Minor, from the Turks, and within two years after, prevailing against the Turks, expelled them from their kingdom*; and so continued these Mamalukes reigning over Egypt, and a great part of Asia, till the time of Tomumbeius their last king, which was destroyed and hanged at the gates of Memphis, by Selim the Turk, father to this Solyman, as in his history is declared. These Mamalukes continued the space of_



After that passage, he ends with a prayer against the Turks, for whatever reason.  He was a puritan, and apparently a rather popular one for his time (whatever that means).  However - most of the wiki seems to be written around one particular historical author JF Mozley.  Mozley apparently does claim that Fox is likely a notorious forger, or at minimum is very loose with his writing style.

But what of the claim?  I can't find any evidence of this Turquemenius existing anywhere outside of this document.  Could it just be a macguffin?


dreamtime said:


> Suppressing the narrative of Tartary as a normal country, vast but not special, mostly served the Russians. Question is why the West followed without objecting. Could be related to the inertia during the Cold War where every action was met with a reaction and after the fall of the Soviet Union, no one cared anymore.



This is the most logical reason I could see for eliminating Tartary from modern history.  In America the "Native Americans" have been completely out of the scope of western historic documentation, outside of the meme of them being savages.  So why would Tartaria be any different - even if there is potentially a connection between the American land mass and the Tartars?  Why piss off the commies over some stuff 99.9% of people don't care about (from their perspective, of course)?


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