# Kosovo: Is this some falsification of history ?



## beast (Apr 6, 2022)

It is claimed by Serbs and western histography that in 1689 in Kosovo there were almost no Albanians and that only
after a Serbian revolt against the Ottomans during the Austrian-Ottoman wars the Serbs were pushed out and replaced by Albanians who
came at the hands of the Ottomans and 'terrorized' the Christian Serbs.

Yet according to sources back then, gathered by the historian Noel Malcolm, the people that revolted and joined the Austrians are mostly mentioned as Albanian by Austrians themselves and other sources at that time. 



> *One early account states that in Prishtina 5,000 Arnauts, having thrown off the Turks* and many leaders of the surrounding places ... swore fealty to the Emperor.





> *Count Veterani, the commander of the Austrian campaign in this part of the Balkans in 1690, wrote in his memoirs of 20,000 Arnauts reduced to loyal obedience to the Emperor by Piccolomini*





> An anonymous history of the war, written in Italian (and surviving in manuscript in two forms: the full Italian text in the French Foreign Ministry archives, and an extract in German translation,
> entitled 'Annotationes und Reflexiones, in the Kriegsarchiv in Vienna), *refers to more than 20,000 Rascians or Albanians. Some other early texts by writers who apparently had acces to original dispatches and documents specify Albanians: for example Franz Wagner, in his history of the region of Leopold I, used the worlds 'Arnautae' and 'Epirotae' - the latter being a term normally used to distinguish the Albanian language (and its speakers) from the Slav, ''Illyrian'', one.*





> And one of Piccolominis own officers, Colonel von Strasser, reported to Ludwig von Baden that Piccolomini had gone to Prizren in order* to treat with 'The Albanians, Arnauts, and others (mit den Albanesernen, Arnauten und anderen')*





> Among the papers of Ludwig von Baden in Karlsruhe, there is a copy of an intercepted letter, in French, written by a secretary of the English Embassy in Istanbul *on 19 January 1690: it reports that the 'Germans' in Kosovo have made contact with 20,000 Albanians who have turned their weapons against the Turks.*





> Most of this evidene points then towards the conclusion that the bulk of the people who rallied to Piccolomini in Prizren - *both the 5,000 who came to the town to greet him, and the others who made up the total of 20,000 - were, by our modern criteria, Albanian:*



The demographics show that Kosovo had a large Albanian population before 1690. Western Kosovo had an Albanian majority.

The Serbs and Western histography however claim this was mostly a Serbian revolt. And that only after this revolt they were replaced by ''Muslim Elements from Northern Albania'' , for example
Tim Judah in his book about Kosovo repeats this, yet uses no sources from that time from the actual revolt as Noel Malcolm has done.


*I got it from Noel Malcolm's new book: Rebels, Believers, Survivors: Studies in the History of Albanians.*

He talks about 'The Great Migration of Serbs in 1690' and argues most of the Serbs that migrated with Arsenije did not come from Kosovo.
Here is some more about the migration



> *This essay examines both the historical facts concerning the migration of Serbs from Kosovo in 1690, and the claims made about that migration by subsequent historians—claims which, at their most extreme, suggested that hundreds of thousands of Serbs departed, with huge effects on the ethnic composition of the region. This essay demonstrates that there was no large-scale organized exodus of Serbs under the Serbian Orthodox Patriarch, Arsenije Crnojević: his departure from Kosovo in early 1690 was extremely hasty, and he had not, in any case, been leading organized resistance to the Ottomans. A large number of Serbs did move with the Patriarch to Hungarian territory later in that year; he himself gave their numbers as 30,000 or 40,000. But they had gathered, from many areas, in the Belgrade region, and only a small proportion were from Kosovo itself.* One unsupported claim was made many years later, by a Serbian monk, that the Patriarch had brought 37,000 families to Hungary; and in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries many Serb writers interpreted that figure maximally, while also assuming that all those people had come from Kosovo. This essay analyses the ideological influences (operating primarily on Serbs within the Habsburg territories in the nineteenth century) that helped to shape that interpretation; it also criticizes excessive claims made by modern Albanian and Turkish historians.


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## matematik (Apr 6, 2022)

The typical Serb view is that Albanians are Turk and even Chechen Muslim imports who didn't exist before the 18th century. They have very particular beliefs/mythology on the subject of Albanians that I'm not sure is entirely factual.

It's quite a common belief in Serbia that the Albanian language is a Caucasian language like Chechen and isn't European.


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## BusyBaci (Apr 6, 2022)

beast said:


> It is claimed by Serbs and western histography that in 1689 in Kosovo there were almost no Albanians and that only


It's exactly that, just a claim, that Serb historians love to parrot because it's convenient to their politics. Albanians have always lived in the now day territory of Kosova. During the Ottoman Empire rule over much of the Balkan peninsula including Albania the populations were forced to switch religion into Islam, because the ottomans placed a heavy tax on all of the families which were Catholics, Orthodox or pagan.
The majority of the population chose to convert into Islam as a result, hence historians use religion in order to make false claims towards Albanians descendance coming from historical Muslim countries, which is false.
In Bosnia there are many Muslims also because of this conversion.

Albanians were called "Arnauts" only by the ottomans, and none else. Maybe it has to do something with the "Argonauts" but I'm not sure, don't quote me on that.


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## Mick Harper (Apr 9, 2022)

I don't see why, even if the Serb version of history is correct, that the current Albanian population are not the legitimate occupiers of the land. If 1690 is not long enough, the Ulster Protestants and the current inhabitants of Massachusetts should think about packing their bags.


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## PantaOz (Sep 13, 2022)

Mick Harper said:


> I don't see why, even if the Serb version of history is correct, that the current Albanian population are not the legitimate occupiers of the land. If 1690 is not long enough, the Ulster Protestants and the current inhabitants of Massachusetts should think about packing their bags.


Interesting view... Balkan is small for so many nations to claim everything for themselves... so which period we take as a right to occupy and create Great Albania, Great Serbia, Great Bulgaria, Great Macedonia, Greater Greece, Greater Croatia or whatever else...?  2,000 BC, 500 BC, 100 AD, 1960? The Balkan population has to understand one thing - they are all into this together, and those who are making them fight are doing that so they can control them and rule them... instead of living in Paradise sharing the beauty of that magical region, those SMALL nations keep fighting each other while the big nations falsify history adding oil to fire. You are not blind... look around you... almost all look the same regardless the nationality and religion! Forget the differences, work together as  family because after so many centuries living together you are just that!


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## BusyBaci (Sep 13, 2022)

PantaOz said:


> You are not blind... look around you... almost all look the same regardless the nationality and religion! Forget the differences, work together as family because after so many centuries living together you are just that!


There is plenty of stolen history regarding the Balkans and saying that we're all one and the same it's not going to help, it would make things worse. That's some kind of China policy to make every white nation look as being the same like them. It's not anyone's fault that they look like clones and copy-paste type of people, surely not the Balkan's fault. 

What is being referred today as Greater Albania is the wrong denomination, it should be called the former Albania because a lot of injustice was done to it's former borders by shrinking them by the great European powers in the Treaty of London in 1913. More on it in the link below.

_ The London Conference and the Albanian Question (1912-1914). The Dispatches of Sir Edward Grey_
Kosova was founded by one of the IIlyrian tribes, the House of Dardan and it's roots go back to the war of Troy where he and his tribe was participating in it. That's a lot of history to be discarded as nothing right there. Surely it's far more ancient that some China history.


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## PantaOz (Sep 13, 2022)

BusyBaci said:


> There is plenty of stolen history regarding the Balkans and saying that we're all one and the same it's not going to help, it would make things worse. That's some kind of China policy to make every white nation look as being the same like them. It's not anyone's fault that they look like clones and copy-paste type of people, surely not the Balkan's fault.
> 
> What is being referred today as Greater Albania is the wrong denomination, it should be called the former Albania because a lot of injustice was done to it's former borders by shrinking them by the great European powers in the Treaty of London in 1913. More on it in the link below.
> 
> ...


So, there is a trouble... How about Greeks, Macedonians, Turks, Serbs and everyone else just using the same arguments and choosing the year in history when the borders of their group were covering the biggest part of Balkan or in case of Macedonia and Turkey much further, and decide to "conquer" or kick out the others... Nothing to do with China but with common sense! We could learn from Chinese, though... and try to invest in infrastructure instead in weapons!

And those stories about history... Serbs claim that they are "narod najstariji", from Adam... but, as well as the Troy story, these are just opinions!


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## Mick Harper (Sep 13, 2022)

Where there's a will, there's a way. Watch out for the next round when the Ukrainian War ends. If they are victorious, will the Ukrainians have the wisdom to let the Donets and the Crimea go to Russia?  Bet they don't. They'd much rather spend the next twenty years impoverishing themselves by trying to control recalcitrant people and then suffer another war. And all because somebody made the Donets and Crimea Ukrainian in the 1950's for some administrative quick fix or other.


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## BusyBaci (Sep 13, 2022)

PantaOz said:


> And those stories about history... Serbs claim that they are "narod najstariji", from Adam... but, as well as the Troy story, these are just opinions!


So you just dismiss a counter argument to your position by saying that it's all an opinion forgetting in the same time that your whole previous post was a big opinion also. No facts stated in there, just wishful thinking and a giant unification theme with rainbow flags to celebrate life or eternal peace as you suggest by suppressing whatever happened in the past. People in Kosovo should forget the genocides against them because someone's opinion says so?

Excuse me but that is not acceptable.

What people should do is to learn what happened in the past and fix whatever wrongdoings that were done by taking into account only proven facts about historical events. I'm sure a lot of countries won't agree because the stakes are high with a lot of economical interest involved. That's the reason why the Balkans are a mess. It's like trying to make coming together Palestinians and Israelis.


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## PantaOz (Sep 13, 2022)

I just do not think that your argument is valid... about Troy or Dardan... and the genocide argument... sorry, mate, I spent long time on the Balkan to know that there everyone had their share of bad and good things... so, I do not want to get involved in the politics... just history!

So, maybe I spent too many years in China and learned one thing - they understand that the war is bad! So, most of the disputes will be settled financially... then reset... until the next crisis... So there is no "blood revenge" like in the Montenegrin or Albanian or Serbian culture... for generations... and while those peaceful nations are advancing (take Switzerland as an example) Balkan nations are in constant strife to prove who is right and who is wrong! So, I have nothing against it if you choose and live there ... but common sense of human being should prevail and beat that blood thirsty nature, so we could provide future for our children, all of them, not just the "chosen ones"!


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## BusyBaci (Sep 13, 2022)

PantaOz said:


> I just do not think that your argument is valid... about Troy or Dardan... and the genocide argument... sorry, mate


Well, that's fine. I did not put up sources about Troy because it would be a long post. Even if I did it would have been useless anyway.
You don't believe in the genocide that happened during the '90s in the Balkans? That's fine also.
Even though that is part of history.

You just happened to cross by in the Balkans and you have a lot of opinions on how they should behave.
Meanwhile, I, that do live in the Balkans and know the history of it very well, I am to be dismissed. It's OK.
I really wish you could learn more of history if that is your passion, I really do mate.


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## PantaOz (Sep 13, 2022)

BusyBaci said:


> Well, that's fine. I did not put up sources about Troy because it would be a long post. Even if I did it would have been useless anyway.
> You don't believe in the genocide that happened during the '90s in the Balkans? That's fine also.
> Even though that is part of history.
> 
> ...


Sadly , I was there through all the turmoils with my wife and 3 children at the time and had my own radio station in Skopje (Kanal 4 was the FIRST private radio station in  Macedonia), now North(ern) Macedonia,  and I am very familiar with the history and the politics because I studied in 2 Balkan countries for some of my degrees... I am not dismissing you, and I am sorry if you understood it like that. I just disagree with that ... I am even familiar with the claims that Troy was Serbian and it was located where today's Skadar is, but when there is not enough evidence, I put that aside. I respect your view and disagree with it. I was present few hundreds of kilometers from these events happening during the illegal attack on sovereign country,  and I can tell you as an eyewitness... most of the major ones were staged, Wag the Dog type of situations! Of course, as an individual you can disagree because propaganda of the media, and at that time I was involuntary part of it due to the ownership and position at the Radio Station, was supported by the West and was feeding the world with lies. I left the Balkan via Greece then Bangladesh and Singapore later and went back to Australia.

Respect for you... and we can agree to disagree on this one.


beast said:


> It is claimed by Serbs and western histography that in 1689 in Kosovo there were almost no Albanians and that only
> after a Serbian revolt against the Ottomans during the Austrian-Ottoman wars the Serbs were pushed out and replaced by Albanians who
> came at the hands of the Ottomans and 'terrorized' the Christian Serbs.
> 
> ...


Malcolm is a writer and he is trying to sell the books... so he is using sources that suits him... there are many "real" historical sources and statements that will contradict the history we learned at school and they will even contradict themselves... so, it is on us to choose what we accept as truth - and sadly, we do that according to the brainwashing of the puppet masters.

I just want to ask, what would happen if the Serbs acted on this map, that says this is their rightful territory?






At the moment, the Albanians from Kosovo and Serbs are close to a war and the West cares only for their goals. Do you think they will be happy if Albanians, Macedonians, Greeks, Serbians... etc... live in harmony all across The Balkans? Do you think there will be an US base in Kosovo if there was a normal co-existence between all the groups? I know it is possible, during the Tito's rule I witnessed it for a while studying and living there. But the poison spread by those puppet masters using the "right puppets" spreads so fast!


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## matematik (Sep 15, 2022)

Mick Harper said:


> I don't see why, even if the Serb version of history is correct, that the current Albanian population are not the legitimate occupiers of the land. If 1690 is not long enough, the Ulster Protestants and the current inhabitants of Massachusetts should think about packing their bags.



I don't think Northern Ireland is much different actually, there's plenty in Ireland who would very much like the Ulster protestants to pack their bags even to this day.

Arabs in North Africa is a good example of invaders/settlers being accepted as native. The only reason North Africa is Arabic speaking and majority Arab is because they invaded and conquered the Berber natives, yet today no one questions this. It's just taken for granted that North Africa is Arab.


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## Gladius (Sep 21, 2022)

Mick Harper said:


> Where there's a will, there's a way. Watch out for the next round when the Ukrainian War ends. If they are victorious, will the Ukrainians have the wisdom to let the Donets and the Crimea go to Russia?  Bet they don't. They'd much rather spend the next twenty years impoverishing themselves by trying to control recalcitrant people and then suffer another war. And all because somebody made the Donets and Crimea Ukrainian in the 1950's for some administrative quick fix or other.



When there's a will there's a way.
The Irish should return their island to UK.
Just because they gave them "independence" for some administrative fix, doesn't mean they're not British.
Most Irish speak English and not Irish, what other proof does anyone need.
But what am I even talking about, this thread isn't about Ukraine or Ireland but the Balkans, but for some reason it seemed very important to you to show how little you know about Ukraine and their centuries old conflict.
This thread is about the Balkan. 
Would you say to our Balkan friends that their fights happen because of "silly administrative and stuff" made by previous Turkish, European or Soviet overlords, and they should just give up any claims and get along? Because it seems very comfortable when it's that far away conflict that affects your pocket.

And let me give you a hint.
Russia doesn't stop at DonetsK, they openly said that all of Ukraine should be russified. Need I remind you that troops tried to break into Kyiv on the first day of the war? Don't delude yourself.
Are you aware of the Donbass population being forced replaced in both 1940s and 2010s, despite being majorly Ukrainian until 2014?
Are you aware the Soviets exiled all of the Crimean Tatars in 1950's to be replaced with Russian beachgoers who migrated there?

I'd comment on the Balkan issues but I know nothing about it, so I'd rather watch and learn rather than talk nonsense or call them to "just get along".


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## PantaOz (Sep 21, 2022)

Gladius said:


> When there's a will there's a way.
> The Irish should return their island to UK.
> Just because they gave them "independence" for some administrative fix, doesn't mean they're not British.
> Most Irish speak English and not Irish, what other proof does anyone need.
> ...


Sorry to interrupt, but I will just try to add that The Balkans is important strategic area in Europe and it will never be left to live in peace... and we were told to be "aware of Greeks coming with gifts" but the word "Greek" could be replaced by any other nation in this case... too many things are happening continuously, every nation claims that they are "the righteous" owners of the land and nobody listens... they all talk, claim, brainwash... 24/7... encouraged by the "puppet masters" who managed at the time to destroy the Socialist Federate Republic of Yugoslavia by an insignificant and unknown corporal Janez Jansa who became a well known politician taking over Council of the *EU*’s presidency for six months in January 2021! These people are tools for the Master Deceiver! 99.99% of the politicians sold their soul to the Devil then worked against their people... from the earliest time. Falsifying history, setting lies as education, destroying connections between people and turning them against each other... the thing continues for centuries on The Balkans! No difference today! All around the world!


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## Mick Harper (Sep 24, 2022)

> Most Irish speak English and not Irish, what other proof does anyone need.


But they vote to be either Irish or British so, according to me, they should be Irish or British as they wish, not how either the British or Irish governments wish. Some Irish are British against their will and this has to be dealt with as best as possible. After seventy years of failure, there has been thirty years of ... um... not-failure.


> But what am I even talking about, this thread isn't about Ukraine or Ireland but the Balkans, but for some reason it seemed very important to you to show how little you know about Ukraine and their centuries old conflict. This thread is about the Balkan.


The parallels are apposite and I think you mean "how little I agree with you". You have no idea how much I_ know _except what I have written here so your sample size is possibly a bit on the small side.


> Would you say to our Balkan friends that their fights happen because of "silly administrative and stuff" made by previous Turkish, European or Soviet overlords, and they should just give up any claims and get along? Because it seems very comfortable when it's that far away conflict that affects your pocket.


I don't have any Balkan friends. It doesn't affect my pocket so far as  know. Yes, previous overlords have largely produced the current situation (though I would add Serbia and NATO to your list). I doubt that they will ever get along but giving up claims is a good start.


> Russia doesn't stop at DonetsK, they openly said that all of Ukraine should be russified. Need I remind you that troops tried to break into Kyiv on the first day of the war? Don't delude yourself.


I'll try not to if you tell me what about.


> Are you aware the Soviets exiled all of the Crimean Tatars in 1950's to be replaced with Russian beachgoers who migrated there?


I would not delude myself about either of these things as they are manifestly untrue.


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## Gladius (Sep 28, 2022)

Mick Harper said:


> And all because somebody made the Donets and Crimea Ukrainian in the 1950's for some administrative quick fix or other.



If you did know a lot about it, regardless of political stance, you wouldn't reduce the summary of this conflict to the words you said in this quote.

The battle for Ukraine's east has been going on for a few centuries and you're blaming the 50's. Best we leave this thread to Balkan matters.


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## PantaOz (Sep 28, 2022)

Well, Serbian president Vučić, in his interview last week made an interesting comment... he mentioned US$500 billion worth of energy resources and minerals on Kosovo, and only US$200 billion in Vojvodina and rest of Serbia. Westerners do not come to help people, they usually come to plunder the resources! Kosovo and Ukraine, or Syria and Iraq, Afghanistan or Guatemala... all the same!

Of course, all sides will use the history as an excuse, they will even create new "historical" events... but it's all about resources!


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## Mick Harper (Sep 28, 2022)

If you need resources the last place you'd look is some godforsaken hole where the natives are always up in arms. The only reason people say "It's all about resources!" is because there are resources everywhere, everyone needs them so, hey, why not say "It's all about resources"?  You'll even be right occasionally.

El Presidente: Where are we going next to get some stuff?
Minister for Stuff: First off, Kosovo. Then probably the Vojvodina (and the rest of Serbia). Oh yes, I forgot. The Ukraine.
El Presidente: What about Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Guatemala?
Minister for Stuff: Them too.


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## PantaOz (Sep 28, 2022)

So, you think that Western nations care for the Albanian people in Kosovo more than for the mine Trepcha... or they care more for Ukrainians than their resources? Ok, everyone has a right to an opinion... I know that Ukraine will owe lots for those weapons West is generously "donating", and if they ever finish with a country that could function in any way, they will exist as a nation just to keep repaying debts to their "friends"...

So, you think UK went to India because they wanted to learn the culture? I don't want to go off topic, so I will just say that there is a reason that two world wars started with events happening on The Balkans.


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## Mick Harper (Sep 28, 2022)

A barrage of questions but I have to demonstrate my knowledge (and wisdom) so here goes:
No. No. Yes. I suppose so. No. Fair enough. What's the Balkan start to the other world war?


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## PantaOz (Sep 28, 2022)

Sorry, this is a particular topic on falsified history... so, maybe we should start another one..  

Sorry about the bad expression... I was thinking of a possibility starting the WWIII with this situation around Kosovo... my bad... I didn't explain the details...


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## BusyBaci (Sep 28, 2022)

Some more details about who the Dardans were and who their descendants are. Meaning, the Albanians of now day Kosovo.

_The War of Troy: A Pelasgian and Illyrian War_



> This book treats the Trojan War from historical aspect separated from myths. There are enough historical facts to treat it in this way because the ancient authors have written a lot about this war. Helena the queen of Sparta or knows as Helen of Troy could have been a reason for this war but in fact she was not the real cause of it, because Achaeans killed before the king of Troy, Laomedon and took in slavery the princes of Troy, Hesiona. So, all this conflict lasted for 30 years from the death of Laomedon, to the fall of Troy.





> According to Dares of Phrygia a testimony of the war the war itself lasted *10 years, six months and 12 days* and brought more than 1.5 million deaths and also thousands of injured people. So for the dimension of time, space and casualties it has the features of and world war. In this book is treated the origin of tribes that participated in this war both from Trojans and Achaeans camps. The origin of those tribes was from Pelasgian and Illyrians that were the oldest people that have inhabited that part of Europe and Asia Minor. *So we have had a Dardan dynasty in Troy that had links also with Dardans of Illyria( Kosovo today).*





> The Phrygians of Troy were tribes that emigrated according to ancient authors from region around Epidamnus or Durres of today Albania. Almost all tribes of Troy had links with tribes known in history as Illyrians. All the dynasties of Achaeans with the most important kings as Agamemnon and Menelaus, were ancestors from Pelops of Phrygia and were from the same origin as were the Phrygians too, so Illyrians. The Achaeans population was of Pelasgian origin. The ethic of Trojan war is found all in the *Albanian canonical law and today that preserves very well the laws of that time in hospitality, loyalty, blood feud, the non violation of victims, the non removal of armature after death, the pledge and oath, costumes that are inherited from the Pelasgians and Illyrians.*





> For this book are seen only the ancient authors and are brought 600 hundred quotations from them. Are seen especially two authors that wrote for it, as Dicty of Crete that participated in war with Achaeans and also Dares of Phrygia that participated with Trojans. Homer is seen only as third source together with all historical sources of antiquity. This book is contribution for the historical truth of Trojan war. Every reader will find out many new things for the war and for the origin of people that participated in this war. The readers not only will find new thing to learn but also will be attracted after the story that is treated in interesting way.



More information on this site also in order to illuminate more on his story:

_King Dardanus in Greek Mythology_



> Dardanus was a founding king of Greek mythology, a king of Arcadia before the Great Flood, and the man who would subsequently settle in the Troad (the Biga peninsula).The Deluge in Greek Mythology


The Deluge in Greek Mythology​


> The main flood myth in Greek mythology has *Deucalion and Pyrrha as the only survivors of the Deluge*, and the couple who would bring forth the race of man when they threw stones over their shoulders.
> 
> Other stories though also exist which tell of other survivors, including Dardanus, and so to reconcile the myths, Deucalion and Pyrrha were then associated with mainland Greece, whilst other individuals were linked with other regions of the Ancient World.


King Dardanus in Arcadia​


> The Deluge, or Great Flood, was sent by Zeus to rid the earth of the impious and quarrelsome generation of man that now inhabited it. At the time Dardanus, alongside his elder brother Iasion, were kings of Arcadia.
> 
> Dardanus and Iasion were sons of Zeus and the Pleiad Electra, thus grandsons of the Titan Atlas, the first king of Arcadia in some mythological tales. Some ancient writers would also state that Harmonia was a sister of Dardanus.
> 
> ...


Dardanus on Samothrace​


> *The boat, with Dardanus and his followers on would set sail*. The boat would first come to rest upon the island of Samothrace, and island that at one time, according to Pausanias, was known as Dardania.
> 
> The stay at* Samothrace* was not a happy one though, for Dardanus considered the land of poor quality, and it was also on Samothrace that Dardanus lost his brother Iasion.
> 
> Some stories tell that Dardanus and Iasion were invited to the wedding of *Cadmus *and Harmonia (although the timeline of events does get confusing at this point). During the wedding feast, the goddess Demeter took a fancy to Iasion, and whisked him away to have her wicked way with him. When the pair returned to the feast, Zeus instantly knew what had gone on between the pair, and in an act of jealousy, killed Iasion with a thunderbolt.


Dardanus in Asia Minor​


> Dardanus and Idaeus would leave Samothrace and arrived in Asia Minor near to the city of Abydos. The newcomers were welcomed to the land by *King Teucer*, and so enamoured with Dardanus was Teucer that he gave his daughter Batea in marriage. Teucer would then give to Dardanus land from his kingdom.
> 
> At the foot of the Idaean Mountains (Mount Ida), named for Idaeus, Dardanus would build a new settlement, a city named for himself. The new settlement prospered, and Dardanus set about expanding his territory waging war against his neighbours, and creating a wider area known as *Dardania.*
> 
> ...






_Dardanus family line_​
An interesting PDF which expands more on the Trojan war, wherever Troy maybe

_The Trojan War_


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## Daniel (Sep 28, 2022)

But how does that directly connect to modern-day Albanians?


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## BusyBaci (Sep 28, 2022)

Daniel said:


> But how does that directly connect to modern-day Albanians?


It's simple, Dardania it's the now day territory of Kosovo and it's inhabited by Albanians even though they would like to live in their own sovereign state separated from Albania.

I'll just quote Wiki for lack of time because strangely enough it's fairly accurate in it's description.




_Kingdom of Dardania_​


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## Daniel (Sep 28, 2022)

BusyBaci said:


> It's simple, Dardania it's the now day territory of Kosovo and it's inhabited by Albanians even though they would like to live in their own sovereign state separated from Albania.
> 
> I'll just quote Wiki for lack of time because strangely enough it's fairly accurate in it's description.
> 
> ...


My point was just because a people live in a territory today doesn't mean that they are the indigenous inhabitants of the land.
Information about the Dardanians is certainly interesting, but I am honestly not seeing any direct links between the Dardanians of the written sources and the Albanians of Kosovo today.
And we are still taking it for granted that "Dardania" was located where Wikipedia says it was.


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## BusyBaci (Sep 28, 2022)

Daniel said:


> My point was just because a people live in a territory today doesn't mean that they are the indigenous inhabitants of the land.
> Information about the Dardanians is certainly interesting, but I am honestly not seeing any direct links between the Dardanians of the written sources and the Albanians of Kosovo today.
> And we are still taking it for granted that "Dardania" was located where Wikipedia says it was.


Well if what I put forward as a minimum of evidence doesn't convince you that's fine, you sure going to use that wiki angle too in order to be skeptic and that's fine also.

The name Dardan for males is used only predominantly in Kosovo today far more than in Albania and that's a simple clue right there. There are far more, but I can't convince people for things that they don't like to take into account.

Please, tell me sir. Where you're from and what's your origin if you wouldn't mind?


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## PantaOz (Sep 28, 2022)

BusyBaci said:


> Some more details about who the Dardans were and who their descendants are. Meaning, the Albanians of now day Kosovo.
> 
> _The War of Troy: A Pelasgian and Illyrian War_
> 
> ...



That was quite  read... lots of it... interesting but not much new... just the point of view was unusual for me... anyway, I really appreciate the effort. I mentioned once that everything published or recorded or spoken was done for 4 reasons: to educate, to entertain, to inform or to change someone's opinion... I will take this as education or information... a good one!

Then, I remembered the interview of the *Croatian theologian and historian from Rijeka - Goran Šarić* in which HE SAYS on Kosovo Online (by the way I do not agree with his statements in fully) : "Co-existence between Serbs and Albanians is badly needed, but it cannot be built on lies, and what Albanians are currently doing is not just theft, it is the rape of history..."



> When you steal someone's territory, you need to cover up the theft with historical law. Mark Twain says that while the truth wears shoes, a lie travels halfway around the world. These days, some Albanian historians travel the world claiming that Albanians have been in the Balkans for thousands of years, that Nemanjici are of Albanian origin and that Serbs did not exist before Vuk Karadzic. *The bigger the truth, the bigger the lie is needed to hide it..*.





> These Albanian historians are reminding me of that joke about a hunchback who grew a beard, that they no longer call him Hunchback but Beard. Co-existence between Albanians and Serbs is badly needed, but it cannot be built on lies!



Further, he explains about "Dardans" and "Dardania":



> Greek and Roman authors are not inclined to these Kosovo natives. They are described with contempt and hatred, which is characteristic of later depictions of Serbs. So they write that Dardanians are savages and bathe only three times in life, at birth, at a wedding and at a funeral. It's really not about hygiene, it's about ritual bathing. Interestingly, the same custom of ceremonial bathing has stayed with Serbs to this day. This is a very important parallel between Serbs and Dardanians and one of the numerous evidence showing that Serbs are descendants of Kosovo 's ancient inhabitants...





> The famous city in the State of the Dardanians was called Bila Zora, which in Serbian means 'white dawn', a syntagma that is still used today. The most famous Dardanian king was Grabo of the Grabic tribe. Serbs and other southern Slavs still have surnames Grabar, Grabovac, Grabaric, Grabarevic and Grabovic, as well as various places with the names Grab or Grabic. The word itself is Slavic, associated with the terms 'graba', 'grave', 'tomb', 'cemetery', 'scratch', 'rake'...



Saric states that as much as we dig far into the past in Kosovo and the entire Balkans, we find Serbian traces and that there are at least six tribes in this area during the Roman Empire that have the basis of "ser" or "sar" in their name – Servi (Limiganti), Serreti, Serapilli, Sardi, Sardeati and Sarmati, and added that it seems that Kosovo was a sacred country for the people of The Balkans.  Even from the time of the oldest, so-called, Vincha civilization!

The Croatian historian continues:



> The only Vincha settlement that was fortified was Valač in Kosovo. There we found a lot of cult objects from that period, which suggests that the whole area had spiritual significance. It remained that way thousands of years later because in 1313 in the Holy Charter, King Milutin gave Valače to the Banjska Monastery, which testifies to religious continuity...



His opinion is that the Albanian population came to Kosovo during the XI century...

Again, to repeat, this is NOT my opinion, but one of the NUMEROUS twists in the Balkan saga of "search for truth"! Evidence on ALL sides is partial... not one side uses all available historical evidence... just cherry picking... but I will leave like that... everyone can do whatever they think is right.

My opinion is that we should explore more of the theory of Dr Relja Novaković about Luzhitz Serbs (Sorben, Wenden, Winden), and the ancient legend of the division of the two sons of the mighty Prince Dervan from Bodrich. One day, the brothers decide to separate. One with half of the people stays in Polabla Polablje), the other with the other half of the people moves far south.

Every word of this legend is confirmed by Κωνσταντίνος Ζ΄ Πορφυρογέννητος - *Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus**. *He considers Balkan Serbs descendants of another brother, and according to the emperor and writer, he settled in the large area of Neretva, Zahumlje, Trebinje, but especially the Zeta Valley and today's Montenegrin Hills. It was once fertile land, with rich Roman cities like Duklje. Thus, the Luzans actually inhabited the core of the future Serbian state. All this is confirmed by the findings of Serbian ethnology, especially by Jovan Erdeljanović and Petar Šobajic. In their monographs on the Piper, Bretonozice, Belopavlićs, and Plešivac tribes, both present a wealth of information that the first Serb population of this belt was the large immigrant tribe from Luzhan area. 

Immigrants here in such a long time held up as a compact population (the Old World) until the arrival of the Turks. Other Serbian tribes inhabited South Banat and Braničevo (Bodrici), from there Luzhnica in eastern Serbia and finally Kosovo, Luzane at the Samodreje Church and the Lab River, to which they named never forgetting their original Laba, although their walk in the village can still be traced back to the South.

So, just my opinion!


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## BusyBaci (Oct 2, 2022)

PantaOz said:


> That was quite read... lots of it... interesting but not much new... just the point of view was unusual for me... anyway, I really appreciate the effort. I mentioned once that everything published or recorded or spoken was done for 4 reasons: to educate, to entertain, to inform or to change someone's opinion... I will take this as education or information... a good one!


I'm sure it's bothering to read contradicting information to the ones someone gets used to. You said on some previews post that I'm being indoctrinating from Albanian propaganda, but I could say also perfectly the same thing about you. Albanian archeology regarding their descendants from the Illyrians (which you firmly denied) is not influenced by the mainstream archeology or mainstream history, it's independent research with valid evidence. Isn't that (mainstream history) the realm of where TPTB have managerial power? hmm

Of course, mainstream Serbian or Greek archeology will deny any research coming from Albania and they'll try to nitpick some errors here and there in order to overshadow the elephant in the room.

Albanian speaking populations are older than the Old Testament itself because of the old language they speak which pre-dates Christianity also (it's the unified language before the tower of Babel fell).
They just *hate* this fact and that's all about their jealous pity counter responses. They desperately try to show that Albanians came from Asia because of the spread of Islam in Albania today due to the long 500 years subdue by the Ottomans, but they fail in their reasoning because, how could such a small population (which language has no similarity with any language out there) cross all the vastness of the Central Asia and settle among the Ballkanians like it's nothing, and leave no trace of language, oral traditions or some written form of documents across their long path by the ottomans, who were really good in census in the Balkans during their rule over it.

I'll just quote some info from this forum to just give a glimpse that Albanians are autochtonous and descendants of some of the Illyrian tribes in the Western Balkans, quoting even people who hate this very definition. lol

_Twentieth map titled ‘La Schiavonia’ by Stefano Bonsignori._



> ​_This Province_* (Provincia) *_and what lies beyond till the Greater_ (Maggiore)*** _sea and the Archipelago_ (Arcipelago)**** _was assigned from the ancient father Noah_ (Noe)_, in the third_ (3) _year of Belus King of the Assyrians_ (Belo Re degli Assiri)_, to his nephew Tiras_ (Tira)_, Japhet’s_ (Iapeto) _son, together with Arcas_ (Arcadio) _and Emathus_ (Ematio)***** _sons of Canaan_ (Canaam) _called Phoenician Ham_ (Cam Fenice)_, who was son of Ham _(Camese)_. *After many years it was dominated by Illyrius *_*(Illirio) son of Cadmus (Cadmo), from which it derived its name Illyria (Illiria) and it kept it for a long time, until the Sclaveni (Schiauoni), people from the north, chased away its inhabitants and occupied it in the time of Emperor Phocas (Foca Imp.re). They called it Slavonia (Schiuonia), and even though Barbarians (Barbari)*_*, they have expanded their name and their territory,* whose extension in comparison to any other Province and Nation_ (Nazione)_ can be judged_****** _by the fact that their own language and letters_ (Caratteri)_ are nowadays used and found not only among Bosnians_ (Bossinesi)_, Serbians_ (Seruiani)_, Bulgarians_ (Bulgari)_, Russians_ (Rossi)_, Bohemians _(Boemi)_, Poles_ (Polacchi)_, Lithuanians_ (Lituani) _and Muscovites _(Moscouiti)_, but also in Asia among the Tatars_ (Tartari)******* _and even at the court of the Great Prince of the Turks_ (Gran S.re de i Turchi) _who rules over most of it. This Province was in ancient times governed by its own sovereigns until it was subjected to the Roman_ (Rom.) _Emperors, from whom, as already mentioned, it passed to the Sclaveni and then in part to the Hungarians_ (Vngari)_. But today it obeys in part to the Great Prince of the Turks, another part to the Venetian Senate_ (Senato Veneto) _and another to the Austrian Archduke_ (Arciduca di Austria)_. Even though it’s a mountainous region for the most part, it is in any case fertile and rich in pastures and mines, from which resources and from the presence of the sea the inhabitants take great advantage, through which they live in abundance and peace._



It's the slavik population that invaded the Balkans and tried to conquer as much as they could and not the Shqip-talking population!!! The truth is the other way around and not what *Croatian theologian and historian from Rijeka - Goran Šarić *is saying*.*

But wait, there is more to it from the same thread. lool

_Eighth map titled ‘L’Italia’ by Stefano Bonsignori._



> Italian peninsula: *Gomer Gallus* (Comero Gallo)_, son of Japheth_ (Iafet)_, was the first to obtain this kingdom by his ancestor Noah_ (Noe)_, and directed its peoples on the right path. But when Ham_ (Camese) _was driven out by the others, he came here and began to corrupt those peoples. But then Noah, also known as Janus_ (Iano)_, arrived and expelled him. Some years after his death, the Peoples_ (Popoli)_, oppressed by the Great Ones_*** (Grandi)_, called Osiris Jupiter Just_ (Osiri Gioue Giusto) _for help. He freed them and taking the name of Apis_ (Api)_, he reigned there for many years. Leaving the kingdom to Laestrygon_ (Lestrigone)_, he went back to Egypt_ (Egitto)_, where he was killed by his Brother Typhon _(Fratello Tifone) _due to the conspiracy of Laestrygon and the other great ones. This event prompted Hercules_ (Ercole) _to take away this state in order to avenge his father, and he ruled over it for many years until he left it to his son *Tusco.* It wasn’t long before Hesperus_ (Espero) _occupied it after being driven away from Spain_ (Spagna) _by his brother Italus_ (Italo)_, and the land was called Hesperia_ (Esperia)_, leaving the previous name of Oenotria_ (Enotria)_. *Hesperus* enjoyed it for a short time, because he was pursued by Italus Atlas Chitim_**** _King of Spain_ (Italo Atlante Chitim Re di Spagna)_, who took it from him and called it Italy_ (Italia)_. His own successors didn’t last much since *Dardanus*_* (Dardano)* _killed his brother *Iasion*_* (Iasio)* _due to a wrongdoing_***** _and fled to *Samothrace*_* (Samotracia)* _fearing for his life. There he renounced all the claims he had upon the kingdom of Italy to *Tyrrhenus*_* (Turreno)*_, son of the *High King of Lydia*_* (Alto Re di Lidia)*_, and obtained in exchange a state in Asia, which was the basis for the *Trojan*_* (Troiano) *_*kingdom*, while *Tyrrhenus* obtained this one. Italus had given the rulership of the *Aborigines*_* (Aborigeni)* _to his daughter Roma, and from her ensued the realm of *Latium*_* (Latio)*_ that passed on to* the Trojans guided by Aeneas*_* (Enea)*_, whose descendants founded *Rome*_ (Roma)_, that after some centuries dominated almost the entire world. But being human things unstable, this, too, came to an end and the unfortunate Italy was trampled on and torn apart by the Goths_ (Gotti)_, the Alemanni_ (Alemani)_, the Lombards_ (Longobardi)_, the Saracenes_ (Saracini)_, the Normans _(Normandi)_, the Franks_ (Franzesi)_, the Spaniards_ (Spagn.li) _and other foreign peoples. But today it is peacefully ruled by its princes, who will with their knowledge and wisdom free it from great danger and ruin looming over it ina way similar to Greece_ (Grecia)_, as Astrologers_ (Astrologi) _say. Given that the Stars _(Stelle) _and their movements make no harm at all, still they show well enough the dangers we human beings have to face, so that with prudence and good government we can take care and get rid of them._



If you or anyone else is to read it carefully, would be able to understand that Dardan made a mess in Italy with the possession of it passing it to other people, and if he was not to live close by, like, you know in the Balkans in now day Kosovo, he would have not managed to do the whole let's say, legal transfer of lands and authority according to intersections of interest based relationships, which are a very human thing to do even today for us.

Dardania is Kosovo! It's on so many maps that it can't be denied! Would anyone like me to post them all??

But I'm sure, contrarians to the truth will always find motive to not acknowledge it.
Some other theory which supports the fact that Serbs population invaded the Balkans.

_History of the Serbs_



> _Slavs settled in the Balkans during *the 6th and 7th centuries*, where they *encountered* and partially *absorbed the remaining local population.*[2] One of those early Slavic peoples were *Serbs*.[3] According to De Administrando Imperio, a historiographical work compiled by the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (d. 959), migration of Serbs from White Serbia to Balkans occurred sometime during the reign of emperor Heraclius I (610-641) when they arrived in an area near Thessaloniki, but shortly afterwards they left that area and settled lands between the Sava and the Dinaric Alps[4][5][6] By the time of the first reign of emperor Justinian II (685-695), who resettled several South Slavic groups from Balkans to Asia Minor, a group of Serbian settlers in the region of Bithynia were already christianized. Their settlement, the city of Gordoserba (Greek: Γορδόσερβα), had its bishop, who participated at the Council of Trullo (691-691).[7] In contemporary historiography and archaeology, the narratives of De Administrando Imperio have been reassessed as they contain anachronisms and factual mistakes. The account in DAI about the Serbs mentions that they requested from the Byzantine commander of present-day Belgrade to settle in the theme of Thessalonica, which was formed ca. 150 years after the reign of Heraclius which was in the 7th century. For the purposes of its narrative, the DAI formulates a mistaken etymology of the Serbian ethnonym which it derives from Latin servi (serfs).[8]_



By the way. Illyria it means (New star) in Shqip language and it has no meaning in any form of Serbo-Croatian based language.


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## PantaOz (Oct 2, 2022)

BusyBaci said:


> I'm sure it's bothering to read contradicting information to the ones someone gets used to. You said on some previews post that I'm being indoctrinating from Albanian propaganda, but I could say also perfectly the same thing about you. Albanian archeology regarding their descendants from the Illyrians (which you firmly denied) is not influenced by the mainstream archeology or mainstream history, it's independent research with valid evidence. Isn't that (mainstream history) the realm of where TPTB have managerial power? hmm
> 
> Of course, mainstream Serbian or Greek archeology will deny any research coming from Albania and they'll try to nitpick some errors here and there in order to overshadow the elephant in the room.
> 
> ...


I will not go into this... it's becoming like the 4th reason argument... to change someone's opinion.  I spent 30 years on the Balkans,  from Skopje, to Belgrade, Split, Zagreb... etc... and heard all the same stories, with Croatians, Albanians, Macedonians , Romanians, Serbians... name it... claiming that they are  NAROD NAJSTARIJI... and Serbians and Albanians are the loudest. I am not saying they are all wrong, but they reminded me of all the churches that claim that they are the ONLY TRUE CHURCH. Most of them have a piece of the puzzle, and until they all come together with all the pieces, we will never know what is the puzzle about.

I really respect your zeal, your efforts and energy to discuss this topic, but until we could come together from all the "camps" and find the truth, this will be used by the puppet masters to further divide us and control us. 

You definitely have few pieces of the puzzle, but there is many around... I respect your way of presenting with passion,  and I would sometimes like to answer the same way... but being 62 soon, on 25 December, makes you to rethink, shut up... and listen more. So, I will do that. There are other people who can bring more pieces of the puzzle but for some reason they don't try anymore... previous bad experience,  maybe?


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## BusyBaci (Oct 2, 2022)

PantaOz said:


> I really respect your zeal, your efforts and energy to discuss this topic, but until we could come together from all the "camps" and find the truth, this will be used by the puppet masters to further divide us and control us.
> 
> You definitely have few pieces of the puzzle, but there is many around... I respect your way of presenting with passion, and I would sometimes like to answer the same way... but being 62 soon, on 25 December, makes you to rethink, shut up... and listen more. So, I will do that. There are other people who can bring more pieces of the puzzle but for some reason they don't try anymore... previous bad experience, maybe?


When something needs to be mentioned, it really need to be stated. Please, don't take this as a personal confrontation, it's just an exchange of evidences and points of view. I do agree though that the superpowers have interests in making people fight each-other, they exploit the human nature to the last bit of it.

You might want to read some other threads which are of high importance in this forum by consulting with the moderators. They sure know better how to get around this forum than me. Some threads regarding Egypt or the speculative previews civilization who build the Greco-Roman architecture around the world. I'm sure you'll find quite an interesting read to spark your curiosity for a handful of months. You just need the right threads to read.


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## PantaOz (Oct 2, 2022)

Again, thank you... as for Iliria... this is the language map of Europe... please, find the Albanian language... as you can see under Iliria there is Old-Slavonic language... and this is a map coming from the West... so it is difficult sometimes to dismiss all of the evidence and just repeat what we were taught (and of course we were all taught different history). 





There is no ultimate truth in the Balkan... I wish there was... the things would be so much easier! In the last 50+ years I read so many things, threads, even had a forum called Balkan Cafe Australia where ALL the Balkan nations were communicating on their own language... it lasted around 10 years and then the Italian host mysteriously "pulled the plug"... so ll the work went "down the drain"... and, seriously, the more you read, the more you learn, the more confusing it becomes... especially when you discover that people you trusted were liars like the other side. I do not understand this as an personal confrontation, and I have nothing against Albanians, Croatians, Serbians or whatever nation they managed to create for the last 20 years ... for me all the Balkan people are brothers from other mothers... so, feel free to criticize if you think that helps you or me. Cheers, mate!


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## Daniel (Oct 2, 2022)

Interesting note in the Foreword to the modern English translation of Niketas Choniates' History of Byzantium.
On page xxix, translator Harry J. Magoulias(under the heading "Notes on Translation")  states


> Niketas is no different from other Byzantine historians among whom anachronisms are common. The Turks are called Persians, the Hungarians Paiones, the Serbs Triballoi and Dalmatians, the Germans Alamani and the Vlachs Mysians. Niketas's history is replete with stock phrases from Homer, many of which again are anachronistic, such as naming the knights "Lords of chariots".


But, are they "anachronistic" at all? So, many(at least) Byzantine writers referred ("anachronistically") to the "Mediaeval" peoples by their "Ancient" names. Could it be simply that the reason Niketas wrote in a similar style to Homer is because they were near to each other in time?
(Magoulias then goes on to explain how he "corrected" all of Niketas' "anachronisms ". He also added "AD" dates to events, something that was completely absent from the text he was translating.)

But, the point is that it is the SERBS who are clearly the "Triballoi and Dalmatians".


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## PantaOz (Oct 2, 2022)

Daniel said:


> Interesting note in the Forewordto the modern English translation of Niketas Choniates' History of Byzantium.
> On page xxix, translator Harry J. Magoulias(under the heading "Notes on Translation")  states
> 
> But, are they "anachronistic" at all? So, many(at least) Byzantine writers referred ("anachronistically") to the "Mediaeval" peoples by their "Ancient" names. Could it be simply that the reason Niketas wrote in a similar style to Homer is because they were near to each other in time?
> ...


These "interventions" by the "historians" created nothing but fake history because people trusted their "expertise"!


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