# Dr. John Dee, Hellfire, Antiquitech, Great Fires and Floods.



## Felix Noille (Apr 26, 2021)

It’s uncanny how, once you begin investigating any of the subjects covered by this forum, that they all seem to dovetail. This topic is no exception and could be posted under a number of different sections which makes choosing where to post it difficult. It also threatens to be quite lengthy, so I am going to try my best not to make it too tedious.

*John Dee & Edward Kelley*
Dee was an occultist, mathematician, astrologer, astronomer, alchemist, historian, theologian, philosopher, cryptographer and an expert in the field of navigation. He was a kind of Merlin to Elizabeth I, although not as cuddly. He is attributed with planting the seed of a “British Empire” into the agenda.

Nicholas Dakin’s book, “John Dee of Mortlake” (Barnes and Mortlake Local History Society, 2011), claims that John Dee’s house on the river Thames at Mortlake, with its library and its laboratory, was the centre of a great intellectual network that stretched across Europe, and in a way, across the Atlantic as well. In fact his library was said to have contained the greatest collection of occult manuscripts in the world. He was also very well acquainted with *Gerardus Mercator*, the cartographer. In fact Dee collaborated with Mercator over the Septentrionalium Terrarum Descriptio (Hyperboria) map.

Dee was Elizabeth I’s Spymaster, as he had a ‘network’ of occult contacts all over the world. In his secret communications with the Queen he always signed himself *007* – and that’s not a joke. He was a real whizz with ciphers and codes. Edward Kelley was his medium, he was a less politically oriented chap some 30 years younger than Dee. Dee’s wife took an instant dislike to Kelley describing him as ‘evil’.

Dee managed to recreate the *Enochian* language as used by Enoch, star of “The Book of Enoch”, in order to communicate with ‘various angels’. He never referred to this language by the name ‘Enochian’ though. The Book of Enoch was considered ‘lost’ at the time, but Dee considered Enoch to be the last person to have used the language. The ‘Enochian’ alphabet had been published in 1530 by Pantheus in the book “Voarchadomia”.  Dee was able to use this alphabet to reconstruct the language by means of Kelley’s mediumship and the use of a black scrying mirror or *Speculum*. This was given to Dee as a gift by Phillipe II of Spain, alleged occultist and builder of the magnificent Monasterio de San Lorenzo de El Escorial, near Madrid.

These communications resulted in the publication by John Dee in 1583 of “Liber Loagaeth Or Mysteriorum Liber Sextus et Sanctus”which contained the 49 Gates of Wisdom/Understanding . Around the same time he produced “De Heptarchia Mystica” or On the Mystical Rule of the Seven Planets, a book for summoning angels under the guidance of the angel *Uriel* and containing diagrams and formulae.

It is claimed that later, these ‘various spirits’ managed to convince Dee and Kelley to uproot themselves along with Dee’s beloved library and their families, to Krakow in Poland. Here they received the "Claves Angelicae", or "*Angelic Keys*" which were supposed to unlock the 49 Gates of Wisdom/Understanding given previously in the Liber Loagaeth. Dee never published these Angelic Keys, but they remained in his personal manuscripts. They have been published since their rediscovery and *Enochian Magic* found its way into the world.

The supposed move to Poland in 1583 was the beginning of the end for Dee and Kelley. The ‘angels’ made increasingly bizarre demands of them that led them into all kinds of trouble. Kelley eventually died trying to escape from prison, Dee having previously returned to England in 1589. He discovered that his library had been ransacked and many books stolen in his absence… although we are also led to believe that he took them abroad with him.  Dee died in 1608… or maybe 1609, he was apparently so unpopular by then that nobody noticed.

Phillipe II of Spain, the same chap who gave Dee the Speculum, sent the Spanish Armada to invade Britain in 1588. For some reason it was a widely held belief that John Dee was responsible for conjuring the *tempest* that scuppered the Armada. However, if we believe the previous narrative which states that Dee wasn’t even in the country at the time, it would seem unlikely. To be honest, the entire saga of Dee and Kelley wandering around in central Europe, their strange adventures and its infamous wife-swapping ritual, sounds like a cross between Don Quixote and a Dennis Wheatley novel.

What is interesting, on the other hand, is that *Shakespeare’s* character *Prospero*, from his play ‘*The Tempest*’ (1610–1611 only 2 or so years after Dee’s death) is long believed to have been based upon John Dee. In the play Prospero uses magical powers to intimidate his enemies and to *manipulate the natural world*. He became ‘rapt in secret studies’ and failed to notice that his deceitful brother, Antonio, had achieved undeserved power and influence. Prospero then uses his powers of magic and illusion to shipwreck his brother, punish his adversaries, and regain his dukedom. He achieves this by means of a familiar spirit, called *Ariel*, who performs magical acts according to Prospero’s instructions. In Dee’s book “De Heptarchia Mystica”, *Uriel* is the guide for summoning angels.

In The Tempest (III:ii), Caliban – a servant of Prospero and a ‘savage monster’ (Kelley?), notes that Prospero’s library is the source of his power:
“Remember
First to possess his books; for without them
He's but a sot, as I am, nor hath not
One spirit to command.”

It’s easy to imagine that Dee had enemies, rivals and even those who wanted his occult knowledge for themselves. Equally, it’s easy to imagine that Kelley could have betrayed him, which led to the theft of Dee’s library. What’s obvious is that Dee would never have left his library unattended to go abroad and that if he took it with him, his library couldn’t have been ransacked and the books stolen.

Dee and Kelley always claimed that their information came directly from ‘various angels’ in order to ‘usher in the *New Age*’. Many commentators have suggested that Dee opened up a *portal* which allowed the ‘macrobes’, ‘archons’, ‘demons’ or other ‘minions of the Lords of Entropy’ into our world. The idea that such beings could wander around freely in our dimension simply by coming through a portal seems unlikely as, if they were physically equipped to do so in the first place, then they wouldn’t need the portal.

What Dee and Kelley did do was establish a means of communication with the ‘various spirits’ and it certainly wasn’t by mail. The important aspect to all of this is that they rediscovered a lost communication technology which may easily have become the means to bring about the later *civilisation reset.* Dee was also communicating with his worldwide network of occult contacts and informants – was this by post or did he use some other means, some other technology?

Dee’s house hasn’t survived, but it’s clear from this picture that he didn’t have to go far to use a bit of antiquitech...


*Hellfire*
The first organisation to be labelled ‘The Hellfire Club’ was created by Philip, 1st Duke of Wharton in London in 1719.  It was suppressed by the order of King George I in 1721. Wharton then became a freemason and amazingly, in just one year, 1722, he became the Grand Master of England. Heavily in debt, Wharton sold Montpelier Hill and his estates of Rathfarnhamin in Dublin, Ireland, to William Conolly, Speaker of the Irish House of Commons, in 1725. Conolly used the stones from a cairn on the top of Montpelier Hill to build a hunting lodge, but was apparently forced to abandon it due to supernatural disturbances and he died in 1729.

The first Irish incarnation of The Hellfire Club rented that very same hunting lodge for their meetings from 1735 until 1741. Their motto was “*Do what thou wilt*” and it’s members were some of the elite of society and included peers of the realm, high ranking army officers as well as wealthy gentlemen and artists (freemasons all). The English painter, James Worsdale, was a founder member. It is claimed that Worsdale is the link between the English and Irish Hellfire Clubs, but there seems to be no evidence for that assumption. He was also instrumental in the foundation of the later Hellfire Club at Askeaton in Limerick, Ireland, in 1740.

The same epithet was accorded to a club called the ‘Beggar's Benison’ which was formed in the 1730s in Anstruther, Scotland. It survived for a century and is claimed to have spawned additional branches in Glasgow and Edinburgh. There is even the suggestion that there was another such club in Paris, so, on the face of it, the Hellfire franchise would seem to be an early version of Starbuck’s.

Many years ago I wasted a lot of hours in libraries digging into the more notorious of the so-called Hellfire Clubs. The founder members were Sir Francis Dashwood and John Montagu, 4th Earl of Sandwich, who had also together founded the Society of Dilettanti in 1734.

John Montagu had quite an illustrious career, being First Lord of the Admiralty, 1748-51, 1763, 1771-82. He was also ‘joint’ Postmaster General from 1768–1771, along with Sir Francis Dashwood, which is a very peculiar arrangement. The Sandwich Islands were named after his habit of snacking on small land masses… not really.

Sir Francis Dashwood was the Member of Parliament for New Romney between 1741 and 1761. He then became Chancellor of the Exchequer during 1762–1763, but was so useless that he had to resign after one year. He became Postmaster-General in 1765, a post he shared with the Earl of Sandwich from 1768 until 1771 after which time he remained in the job alone until 1781.

The Society of Dilettanti was a British society of noblemen and scholars who sponsored the study of ancient Greek and Roman art and the creation of new work in the style. “Grecian Taste and Roman Spirit” was their motto. Rumours abounded concerning perverse rituals and collections of erotica.

However, this was nothing compared to what became known (much later) as The Hellfire Club.  It began as the Order of the Knights of St Francis in 1746. The club’s motto was also “Fais ce que tu voudras” (“*Do what thou wilt*”), from Rabelais' fictional abbey at Thélème and one that would re-emerge in the 20th century as *Aleister Crowley’s* war-cry. Some of the member’s names were known and many were accused, but the interesting ones include Benjamin Franklin (freemason and inventor of the glass harmonica), John Wilkes (criminal and political agitator) and Horace Walpole (author, politician and son of the first British Prime Minister, Robert Walpole), all of whom are considered as mere ‘guests’ in the modern narrative. Franklin was in England in 1724, then from 1757 until 1762. Then in 1764 he returned to London to represent colonial interests before the Crown. His involvement with the Hellfire Club is these days explained as ‘spying’, which presupposes that there was something worth spying upon, of course.

It’s important to be aware that it’s impossible to be certain of exactly what these Hellfire Clubs were all about. Even in their own time there was much misinformation, some of it created by the members themselves. Allegations of Black Masses and sexual debauchery were and still are, passed off as “jolly japes”, “general bawdiness”, “high jinx” or “rakish behaviour”. That’s not to say that such things didn’t happen at the club’s meetings, but focusing on this alone is to allow other more significant matters to go unnoticed.

Dashwood and Montagu’s club evolved through a number of names; the Brotherhood of St. Francis of Wycombe, The Order of the Friars of St Francis of Wycombe and upon leasing  Medmenham Abbey in 1751, they became the Monks or Friars of Medmenham. The Abbey underwent an expensive rebuild in Gothic revival style with the motto being placed above the door. During its lifetime, the club was never called “Hellfire”, this was appended to the popular narrative later as with most of the other clubs.


By the 1760s meetings were no longer being held at the abbey and all evidence of the club ever having been there was removed. This could have been the result of a highly improbable incident that allegedly involved a Black Mass, a baboon, John Wilkes and The Earl of Sandwich. An account of this was later published by John Wilkes and gave away many ‘secrets’ of the club’s activities at the Abbey. The meetings were now being held in the caves of West Wycombe. These had been excavated between 1748 and 1752 by Dashwood, by extending an ancient chalk and flint mine.

From Wikipedia: “A route through the underground chambers proceeds, from the Entrance Hall, to the Steward's Chamber and Whitehead's Cave, through Lord Sandwich's Circle, ... Franklin's Cave (named after Benjamin Franklin, a friend of Dashwood who visited West Wycombe), the Banqueting Hall (allegedly the largest man-made chalk cavern in the world), the Triangle, to the Miner's Cave; and finally, across a subterranean river named the Styx, lies the final cave, the Inner Temple, where the meetings of the Hellfire Club were held, and which is said to lie 300 feet (90 m) directly beneath the church on top of West Wycombe hill...Considering they were all dug by hand, the caves are often regarded as an incredible feat of engineering.”




Entrance​
Franklin’s Cave - it seems odd that someone considered to be guest rather than a member should have an entire cave named after him.

The church directly above the caves is St Lawrence's Church which was remodelled by Sir Francis Dashwood around the same time the caves were being excavated. He also built a Mausoleum there and remodelled the nave into a “very superb Egyptian hall” inspired by the ancient Temple of the Sun in Palmyra. There are many Trompe-l'œil paintings attributed to Giovanni Borgnis and in the centre of the chancel ceiling is a painting of the Last Supper after Rembrant. Spectacular Rococo plasterwork is all over the place. The church had served the lost medieval village of Haveringdon up until around the 14th century. One of Dashwood’s most important improvements was to the medieval west tower, which he made higher.

*Antiquitech*
He placed a great *golden ball* on the top of the tower. The golden ball can be seen for miles. Reputedly, it’s “made from a wooden frame covered in gold leaf, 8 feet in diameter, and contains seating for up to six people.” That gold leaf must have excellent preservative properties if the ball is still the original and truly made of wood...


Rumours abound that the golden ball was used as a meeting place by the Hellfire Club, but the modern narrative is very uncomfortable with that notion. In fact, if you look at the previous photo, and the beginning of this video, you can see a hatch or door at the base of the ball. It would also seem that it was once open to the public – not anymore though.

The most interesting tale relating to the ball claims that Dashwood was somehow *communicating* with a *tower*, now known as the Camberley *Obelisk*, near Hawley, Hampshire, 21 miles (34 km) to the south. It’s claimed that the tower was built about 1765–1770 by Dashwood’s friend, John Norris, who was a prosperous merchant, a member of the landed gentry and of course, the Hellfire Club. The tower is situated on top of a hill, about 2 miles (3.2 km) east of Norris' house. At the time of its construction the town of Camberley had not yet been founded and the area was open heathland.

The theory goes that the two men signalled to each other from the top of the two towers, either using flags or heliographs. It’s also suggested that Norris' tower originally had a golden ball on top of it, matching the one on the West Wycombe church tower. However, it’s impossible to be sure as the tower is now a ruin having ‘burned down’ at some point since then.


Norris' Tower​
As to why Dashwood and Norris needed to signal information between themselves, well, amongst the favourite suggestions on offer we have; placing bets, something to do with the activities of the Hellfire Club and also espionage related to the American War of Independence.

According to Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh in their 1991 book, “The Temple and the Lodge”,  (pp. 319–320) Norris passed secret information to Dashwood. This theory is supposedly supported by a letter written by Norris, dated 3 June 1778, in which he notes, "Did this day heliograph intelligence from Dr Franklin in Paris to Wycombe".

There are a few problems with this. For a start, the heliograph wasn’t invented until 1821 when Carl Friedrich Gauss of the University of Göttingen in Germany developed and used a predecessor of the heliograph, the heliotrope. Why didn’t Franklin just send the information straight to Dashwood from Paris? However, the biggest problem is that Baigent and Lee are two-thirds of the team that kicked-off the *Priory of Sion* / Rennes-Le-Chateau malarkey in “The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail” and therefore cannot be trusted.

It’s unlikely that Norris built any towers anywhere. In fact what we see is the ruin of an obelisk, of which there are thousands all over the UK, all over the world in fact. These are not the ‘genuine magically transported from Egypt’ type obelisks, but locally crafted ones found in not only towns, cities, even villages, but also on the top of all the high-spots in between. We are told they are monuments. They get dedicated to all sorts of things and people – the fallen of WWI/II, Nelson (both the famous sailor and someone’s dog), the spot where Sir Everard Fortesque-Splonge fell from his horse and later died of boredom, etc, etc., but this is just a way of stealing them from history and falsifying their true purpose.

    

    

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As to what that true purpose is, further examination of the Hellfire Club’s shenanigans is required.


Sir Francis Dashwood by Hogarth​
The above is a painting of Francis Dashwood, 11th Baron le Despencer, by the popular 18th century artist (and freemason), William Hogarth. Charles Lamb, a noted art critic of the time, deemed Hogarth's images to be books, filled with "the teeming, fruitful, suggestive meaning of words. Other pictures we look at; his pictures we read." The image is a parody of Renaissance images of Saint Francis of Assisi. It’s claimed that The Bible has been replaced by a copy of the erotic novel Elegantiae Latini sermonis, although it’s impossible to see if that’s true based upon photographic evidence. The object above Dashwood’s head is described as a halo showing the profile of Dashwood's friend, the Earl of Sandwich. It does indeed look like a caricature of him. The traditional baby Jesus has been replaced by what’s described as the naked figure of Venus.

It always fascinates me that these kind of images always come pre-packaged with interpretations designed to lead you to an officially sanctioned set of conclusions. There is another version of this painting…


William Platt after Hogarth, 'Sir Francis Dashwood Worshipping Venus'.​
This is an engraving by William Platt, after Hogarth. Both images were interchangeably entitled “Sir Francis Dashwood worshipping Venus” or “Sir Francis Dashwood at his devotions”.

The engraving is different. The most obvious difference being Dashwood’s appearance. He would have been around 50+ years old when Hogarth painted his portrait. The William Platt engraving is undated, but Platt wasn’t born until 1775 and Dashwood died in 1781, so the engraving is obviously from about 1785 at the earliest. The platter in the bottom right has a more defined reflection in the engraving, which looks like a figure. On the left in the centre there is what appears to be an *obelisk* or tower in the engraving, whilst the same scene in the painting is too vague to discern any details. The Earl of Sandwich seems to be watching what Dashwood is doing whilst in the engraving he is looking at the ‘camera’, so to speak. Both images place Dashwood and Sandwich in a cave, therefore the settlement in the background cannot be West Wycombe, as the caves were directly below it. The ‘halo’ really does look like a mirror with Sandwich looking into it to see what Dashwood is doing. Combined with the shiny platter, there is a strong suggestion of *scrying* or *remote viewing* in both images. Perhaps far from worshipping Venus, Dashwood is remote viewing the naked woman… which is just the sort of thing he would do given half a chance.

Remote viewing was used successfully during WW2 to locate German U-boats in the Atlantic. Check out Dennis Wheatley’s novel, “Strange Conflict”, which is based on fact. It’s also a widely held belief that all the major secret services are using it today. Espionage and the occult have always gone hand-in-hand. Obviously remote viewing is a major benefit to espionage as is a secure and speedy method of communication - which apparently didn’t exist until fairly recently. Dee was associated with espionage, maybe even its pioneer. Alastair Crowley, a disciple of Dee’s, worked with the British Secret Services before and during WW2. One of the agents he met was a Commander *Ian Fleming*, the author of the *007* novels. Another was Dennis Wheatley mentioned in the previous paragraph.  Crowley’s philosophy was summed up in his motto “*Do what thou wilt*”.

So, in the 20th century we have a master of Dee’s ‘spirit’ communication technology, whose motto is the same as the Hellfire Club’s, working with the creator of James Bond *007* and a remote viewing specialist. All we need is something to connect The Hellfire Club with Dee…


Dee’s Speculum​
Dee's Speculum or Mirror still exists in the British Museum. It was aquired in 1773 by none other than Horace Walpole - author, politician, son of the first British Prime Minister and frequent ‘guest’ of the Hellfire Club. Lord Frederick Campbell had brought "a round piece of shining black marble in a leathern case" to Walpole in an attempt to ascertain the object's provenance. According to Campbell, he responded saying "Oh, Lord, I am the only man in England that can tell you! It is Dr. Dee's black stone".

Just why Horace Walpole should claim to be the only man in England who could recognise Dee’s Speculum is a mystery and will probably remain one forever. It does indicates his prior knowledge and involvement with it though. There is no record of where Lord Frederick Campbell purchased it. He was a Scottish nobleman and is known to have been a member of the Irish House of Commons during 1771… very close to the site of the earlier Dublin Hellfire Club, some of who’s members were also in the Irish House of Commons.

(Just as an aside; it’s really worth looking at Horace Walpole’s house inside and out, it’s something else.)

At this point in time (1771) the Hellfire Club, such as it was by then, was still meeting in the caves at West Wycombe. The Earl of Sandwich became First Lord of the Admiralty for the third and final time, leaving Dashwood as sole Postmaster General and Franklin as his counterpart in America. After being released from prison in 1770, John Wilkes became Sheriff of the City of London, which  confirmed where his true allegiance lay. This year saw the end of the ‘*War of the Regulation*’, an uprising in North and South Carolina which began in 1765 following a massive influx of new settlers from the east… in other words the old civilisation was revolting (if you see what I mean).

From this date, 1771, Dee’s Speculum was available to the Hellfire Club, as was Walpole’s prior knowledge of it. If they were already *scrying*, as the previous portraits may suggest, then Dee’s mirror would be put to good use… well, maybe not ‘good’ precisely.

The word *Speculum* is very interesting;
"instrument for rendering a part accessible to observation"
"reflector, looking-glass, mirror" (also "a copy, an imitation")
from specere "to look at, view"
*Speculate*: 1590s, "view mentally, contemplate"
Also formerly "view as from a *watchtower*" (1610s).

It would seem that we have a trail that leads from Dee and Kelley in the 16th century to Dashwood’s Hellfire Club in the 18th century (plus maybe the earlier Dublin club) and then on to Aleister Crowley in the 20th. If Dee did have access to communication technology that made use of what we now recognise as antiquitech, it’s highly probable that it was also passed down through the same trail. If the worldwide network of obelisks, towers and star forts was/is capable of transmitting energy then maybe that same energy could be used for instant direct communications or to enhance remote viewing/scrying. Perhaps every Postmaster General was initiated into this technology when he took office. At the very least it seems that there must be some benefit to direct interaction with the etheric network – the idea that 6 people would risk climbing up into a cramped ball on top of the church at West Wycombe just to get pissed and then take an even greater risk climbing down again is ludicrous.

These obelisks, towers and star forts are more than likely to have been placed on *ley lines*. _Michelle Gibson_ has done a great deal of work to show how such structures are aligned to a worldwide grid based upon the Flower of Life symbol.




The tower on top of *Glastonbury Tor* is known as St Michael's Tower. St Michael's Church is claimed to have been built in the 14th century, of stone, but only the roofless tower remains, which has been “restored and partially rebuilt several times”. It was clearly an obelisk and has since been disguised and it’s definitely on a ley line.

The general state of communications during the 16th to 18th centuries is worth consideration. Obviously there was the post – letters/mail. These would be shuffled around the country by coach and horses. Urgent official communications might warrant the exclusive use of a horseman with frequent changes of horse, but overseas communication was via sailing ship. Benjamin Franklin crossed the Atlantic Ocean eight times in his lifetime, the perilous transatlantic crossing usually took at least six weeks and could take as long as two or three months. This all begs the questions, how long did it take to get wars started/stopped and orders transmitted to the armies/navies?

It must have been even worse for Spain and Portugal when communicating with the Americas. Then there’s communications between London and India, China and Australia etc. It seems as if there just wasn’t enough time for all the wars and international political intrigues, because the mail took too damn long.

*Conclusions*
If John Dee was given the knowledge of how to manipulate the natural world and he really conjured up the tempest that defeated The Armada, then that knowledge and the means to acquire it, has certainly not been lost. It survived either by having been stolen, passed on or reacquired.

The purpose of the Hellfire Clubs is very difficult to pinpoint. Maybe they were recruiting the rich and powerful to the ‘dark side’. Perhaps they were also communicating with ‘various spirits’ and commanding them to do their bidding whilst being manipulated themselves. If the takeover of the existing civilisation in America wasn’t as easy as had been anticipated, it could even be that they were learning how to use the etheric network of obelisks etc. to manipulate the natural world and create targetted *liquefaction* events, or *mud floods*, or *Great (Hell) Fires*, or worse. If resistance increased worldwide further down the line, then the ‘various spirits’ may have called for a *complete reset of civilisation*.

There is one more consideration. At around exactly the same time as the first Hellfire Club appeared, a serious schism occurred within *freemasonry*. I know the current reaction to ‘freemasonry’ is that it’s an integral part of the problem and so it is, however, there are theories claiming that what we have today is a twisted, evil version of something that was once honourable. *Moorish Science* is often cited as one such ‘something’.

In 1717 the Premier Grand Lodge of England was established in the City of London and so-called because it claimed it was the first Masonic Grand Lodge to be created. However, the Most Ancient and Honourable Society of Free and Accepted Masons in York disagreed. The upstart grand lodge was cobbled together from four existing Lodges who gathered at the Goose and Gridiron Ale-house in St. Paul's Church-yard in *The City of London* where they constituted themselves into a Grand Lodge. These four lodges (or were they mini Hellfire Clubs?) were all named after the pubs where they held their meetings.

The Ancient Grand Lodge of England on the other hand held their meetings in a lodge within York Minster. Their claim was based on a tradition that began in 926 AD when Prince Edwin (he of Edwin’s Burgh or Edinburgh fame) supposedly presided over a meeting of Masons in York, which was seen as the first Grand Lodge in England.

I did a great deal of research into this years ago and found that the York Grand Lodge has verifiable connections to the *Knights Templar* (whoever they really were), or at least to the symbolism that is associated these days with them. This information has since disappeared from public view, as far as I can ascertain.

The two camps became known as the Antients and Moderns. Interestingly, the Duke of Wharton, founder of the first Hellfire Club, became Grand Master of the Modern’s City of London Grand Lodge having been a mason for just one year in 1722 (as already mentioned). What finer recommendation could you want?

Amazingly the Moderns slowly but surely gained the upper hand over the Antients until eventually in 1813 they united with the Ancient Grand Lodge of England to create the United Grand Lodge of England. It could well be that the various Hellfire Clubs with their ‘*Do what thou wilt*’ offering had a lot to do with recruiting members to the new, twisted version of freemasonry that’s still with us today.

All of these possibilities exist.

*Epilogue*
In 1781, Dashwood's nephew Joseph Alderson founded the Phoenix Society (later known as the Phoenix Common Room) at Brasenose College, Oxford, which became a recognised institution in 1786. The Phoenix was established in honour of Sir Francis, who died in 1781, as a symbolic rising from the ashes of Dashwood's earlier institution. To this day, the dining society abides by many of its predecessor's tenets. Its motto uno avulso non deficit alter (when one is torn away another succeeds) is from the sixth book of Virgil's Aeneid and refers to the practice of establishing the continuity of the society through a process of constant renewal of its graduate and undergraduate members. (Wikipedia). *Harry Potter* anyone?

A number of Hellfire Clubs are still in existence in Ireland and are centred around universities and meet secretly. For example, there is a Hellfire Club at Trinity College that meets in central Dublin, while there is also a Hellfire Club at Maynooth University that meets in Maynooth, as well as one that regularly meets in Cork. These clubs carry out similar actions as the original Hellfire Clubs, including mock ceremonies and drinking alcohol. (Wikipedia)





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## HollyHoly (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: HollyHolyDate: 2019-12-28 21:59:14Reaction Score: 12


Great post!!


Felixnoille said:


> It’s uncanny how, once you begin investigating any of the subjects covered by this forum, that they all seem to dovetail. This topic is no exception and could be posted under a number of different sections which makes choosing where to post it difficult. It also threatens to be quite lengthy, so I am going to try my best not to make it too tedious.
> 
> *John Dee & Edward Kelley*
> Dee was an occultist, mathematician, astrologer, astronomer, alchemist, historian, theologian, philosopher, cryptographer and an expert in the field of navigation. He was a kind of Merlin to Elizabeth I, although not as cuddly. He is attributed with planting the seed of a “British Empire” into the agenda.
> ...


 I know that Benjamin Franklin was a member of the/a Hellfire Club and recently a house that he occupied with  some others in London was discovered to have dozens of  dead bodies stashed in it. dead bodies alibi  Something broke out during this time and all the smoke leads in the direction of Dee and Kelly and their network of associates.   I have had for decades a notion that divination type tech is being used by the "other side" as well as us .  Remote viewing and communication are old as  you  can go back . Dee and his clan of magicians really broke through to 'something', doesn't look like the Geni is going back in the bottle. I think this what the 'fruit of the knowledge of good and evil'  probably looks like.  I  often think about the problem of mail,being delivered by post /by runners /by ship etc. and the same issue involving the warfare communication. I have been toying with the idea that a form of instant communication was possible and used  but I cant prove it by any other method than deduction that war communication seems to have been relatively unobstructed,where are the stories of a war being lost or unfought from lack of communication?  And things like, it would take years to respond to a war fighter  issue if communications were as slow and unwieldy as it is portrayed  or supposed by us . So basically all I have is the notion that something about the communication timelines doesn't add up. It seems that from biblical times all the way to the present Kings and heads of stae have all had wizards and astrologers and diviners around as cabinet ministers and consultants. We shouldn't be surprised to uncover just that when we dig into it. Seems that the wizards at some point decided to do away with the King /middleman and just takeover themselves.


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## Plissken (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: PlisskenDate: 2019-12-29 21:24:24Reaction Score: 12


Great post _@Felixnoille_ !!  John Dee, the first 007, has always fascinated me.  I like the connections you made with Ian Fleming and Aleister Crowley. I did not know they were acquainted.  Here are some more pics from Wycombe. Starting with the golden ball.


The pic on the left looks like six people could hang out but the one on the left looks way smaller.  Does it look like six of the repairmen could cram into there?  Did they do a ball change?

     
An uncapped pyramid at the bottom of the tower is formed by the roof line of the addition with two mini pyramid roof vents.



     
Inside, the church has all of our favorite pagan symbols: sun/starbursts, swastikas , rosettes,  wreaths, garlands and an organ.






     
And then there is the mausoleum.  In the shape of a hexagon.  Notice how it lines up with the tower from below and the road into town.  They had some good surveying equipment back in the days.



Golden Ball Inspection on Twitter
Article on the wycombe hill
West Wycombe flickr

Plissken


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## Felix Noille (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: FelixnoilleDate: 2019-12-30 10:35:41Reaction Score: 5


I greatly appreciate the input.



HollyHoly said:


> I have been toying with the idea that a form of instant communication was possible and used but I cant prove it by any other method than deduction that war communication seems to have been relatively unobstructed,where are the stories of a war being lost or unfought from lack of communication?


Quite so. It almost seems like they forgot to factor it in when they were inventing the new narrative.



Plissken said:


> The pic on the left looks like six people could hang out but the one on the left looks way smaller. Does it look like six of the repairmen could cram into there? Did they do a ball change?


Those are great photos, well done for finding them. I hadn't realised the alignments before. I believe Dashwood was instrumental in the construction of the road using the flint and chalk excavated from the cave. Personally I think the black and white photo is a fake. As you say, the size is wrong for a start. The locating points of the chains don't match. The external curvature of the globe doesn't match the curvature of the opening. There's some kind of external rectangular beam across the top of the doorway that shouldn't be there. The supposed internal wooden structure of the globe makes no sense as its curvature is wrong and the ceiling above looks flat. There's some writing inside that my old eyes can't make out...

It always makes me wonder - why do they bother? What are we being distracted from or convinced of?


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-12-30 15:01:06Reaction Score: 7


Never heard of this character before although I had heard of the other characters and places. I use the word characters because as it reads to me that is precisely what they are, characters in a story.
There are one helluva lot of claiming done by these characters, claims which cannot be substantiated in any way and of course the recurring theme of divine intervention gets remodelled slighty, angels this time not Lord God, multiple gods or interplanetary beings or interdimensional beings.

If this comes across as me being sceptical its because I am. It is not a sleight on your post or indeed anyone else's position on this character and his alleged doings, just me writing on a screen about why I feel sceptical.
Thought I'd better drop that in after the electric ether interchange.

So this bloke claimed to talk to angels and one or more of them gave him, a human, divine knowledge of how nature works and why.
That is the unprovable basis for every bit of the tales that follow. There is no way he can confirm or share this angel chat with another human being so why did the angels favour him and not anyone else?
Why did other people take him at his word?

When a child has 'an imaginary friend' no other child or adult takes them seriously and either ignore or dismiss the imaginary friend stories yet here's an adult John Dee pulling the same imaginary friend story out and the adults around about don't dismiss his stories as stories, they take it as gospel.

Take this tale of yore for example; John Dee - John Dee, the Queen's astrologer - Occultopedia, the Occult and Unexplained Encyclopedia

_In 1555, during the reign of Mary Tudor, Dee was imprisoned briefly under suspicion of using enchantments against the Queen. It seems that Elizabeth I held him in high regard, although Dee himself appeared to have little or no psychic ability. He claimed to be able to communicate with angelic beings, and to be skilled in scrying, but actually employed seers to transcribe alleged angelic communications for him._

One Queen imprisons him for enchanting, though I was told witches were knocked off back in the day, and another 'held him (an enchanter) in high regard'. Makes no sense, to me always to me. But then again the weasel words creep in an in this case its 'seems'. In other words there is not a lot of evidence for either the imprisonment or the high regard but we'll roll with it for the sake of the story.

How anyone can prove to another they have a psychic ability is beyond my knowing. Wouldn't claiming to be in contact through the mind alone with another entity be a sign of witchcraft or devil contact or at least counter to the religion of the day?
If one were actually able to experience psychic ability my money would be on keeping one's gob shut not entertaing royalty with it.

The article mentions Dee employing seers. Thoughts of Up Pompeii come to mind on reading that "Woe is me, oh woe is me. Beware the Ides of March." but you have to be of a certain age to 'get it'.
Seers are people who make the exact same claim John Dee does ergo they are in contact with other beings/the future and their claims are just as unprovable as Dee's are.
Once again I'm sure contact with another world would fall foul of the Roman Catholic Church's stance on it having the one true communication with a divine being Lord God, through his chosen human, the Pope.

Carrying on on that page, simply because it isn't wikiwaki and is concise.

_Dee was born at Mortlake, at that time a village on the Thames outside London._
How the hell would his birth be worthy of note and what would it be noted in?
A parish record book is the only document that springs to mind as state registration of births would not arrive for another three hundred years or so.

_Young Dee had a retentive memory and early proved an apt pupil._
Once again who the hell would record this information and where. Doesn't read to me as thoughh his ability was in anyway a stand out worthy of note at the time.

_At the age of 15 he went to St. John's College, Cambridge, where he recorded in his diary that he used to spend 18 hours a day studying._
What a hero and was that a College or a slave camp?
What about eating, drinking, washing, socialising, sleeping, cleaning and crapping. Surely these things must have eaten into his day a bit. Sorry to be a bit flippant but these are all neccessary functions of life and yet we are supposed to believe this bloke gave them all up to study because his diary says so.

_His reward came in 1546 when he was appointed Under-Reader of Greek at the newly founded Trinity College, shortly after which he was made a Fellow of Trinity and graduated as a BA at his own college._
The same inexplicable metoric rise in status that gets mirrored centuries later when the Beaux Arts college gets started. The same meteric rise in status experienced by the, contemporary to Dee, map makers get going, all under the patronage (aka in the employ) of either royalty, RCC or RCC royalty.

Also no mention from his diary about what he was studying but he was appointed to the Under Reader of Greek at a brand new college so the supposition is he was reading greek whilst in St John's. As far as I can recall angels don't speak Greek. If anything they converse in Latin, if the RCC is accurate or perhaps they have another divine language.

He graduates as a BA at his own college. So he was appointed as Under Reader withot a BA. Bet that pissed a few people who were qualfied off just a tad.

Is there anything about this mans early life that justifies our knowing of it?
For me there's bugger all but the telling of a story for what purpose I know not.

_John Dee went to the University of Louvain in Belgium in 1547, where he made friends with the Flemish cartographer Gerardus Mercator and brought back to Cambridge two of Mercator's globes, together with newly devised astronomical instruments. In one sense Lee can be said to have been the first Englishman to indulge in industrial espionage, for he realized quite early that the English must increase their knowledge of navigational techniques if they were to expand their empire. Consequently he passed back to England all the information he learned from Mercator and others._

The Empire eh. The union was only forty years old at that point but already Empire was 'the goal' or so we are told. It obviously, from that passage, predates John Dee's royal connections and the claim of his 'sowing the seeds of empire' is called into question.
It s worthy of note that despite the English, not the British, having ships going all over the oceans they were doing so apparently without the globe 'knowledge' so I, for one wonder, how they achieved what they did in their globe ignorance.
Again more story telling to me setting this character in 'his time' and 'his connections' to things we are sold as being important today. To me always to me.
And it's also notworthy to mention 'and others'. Who the hell were they, where did he meet them, what information or artifacts did he get from them?
From the way that article is worded he didn't give this info and artifacts to royalty but 'to England', which begs the question who in England did he pass it back to as I know England has no senses.

_About this time Dee first took an interest in natural magic, a subject which was then occupying the minds of many Renaissance scholars. _
Must have given up on his diary if the lack of clarity in regards to dates is any guide.

_A distinction was made both by the scholastic laity and the Church between natural or 'white' magic, and black magic. The view was that the former was a natural and therefore a good force, that it seemed magical because its workings were spiritual and invisible and therefore not normally given to mortals to understand. 
Black Magic, on the other hand, was a force for evil conjured up by men either for evil purposes or through ignorance and superstition. It was the dividing line between science and the occult which Lee found so fascinating._
Aah the seemingly age old dichotomy game of good versus evil, I feel dreamt up by whoever invented the Roman Catholic Church.
Church is good, because it's people say so.
Everything and I do mean EVERYTHING outside of church is bad, because the church people say so.
It really doesn't get any clearer, to me, than that why this John Dee story is simply a story with an author who created a cast of characters to peddle a message.
Don't get the typo tbh as the D and the L are not close together on the keyboard.

_Dee learned much from the orientalist Antonius Gogava, and from Cornelius Agrippa, who had framed the doctrine that the practice of magic was one of the lawful ways by which man could attain to a knowledge of God and Nature._
Clock the names. Connections aplenty but no royal patronage yet. Wonder what those with royal patronage at this time were up to or what they thought of this Dee fellows antics.

_Thus, while teaching logic and mathematics on the continent, Lee was also pioneering in the perilous fields of natural magic, especially in telepathy. The experiments with crystal-gazing were preceded by Dee's preoccupation with his dreams. He made frequent mention of strange dreams in his diaries; similarly he noted the dreams of his wife, for he had married for the second time. His new wife was Jane Fromond, a lady-in-waiting at court._
Diaries are back in the tale, as is the odd L for Dee typo.
Seems he stayed in whatever parts of the continent teaching even though he was actually employed as an Under Reader of Greek back in Cambridge. So all his chatting with angels took place off of this island and yet he became a 'trusted advisor' for two English Queens.
Married for the second time. Wonder what haapened to his first wife, what nationality she was, what nationality his second wife was or where he got married. I'm sure his diaries will have the answers.

Incidentally looking for this lady in waiting startpage served up this link
RENAISSANCE MAN, Series 1, Part 1
Which provides these items of note;
_Birth in London of John Dee (1527-1609), son of Rowland Dee and Jane Wild_
Remember Mortlake was a village OUTSIDE of London!

_1535
John Dee is sent to Chelmsford Grammar School at about this date._
Rather well off his Mortlake village dwelling parents weren't they. Or were they actually wealthy London dwelling parents?
He went to Grammar school aged 8. Perhaps they taught The Trivium back then.

_1542
John Dee enters St John’s College, Cambridge, where he is tutored by John Cheke. Contemporary students include William Cecil, Thomas Chaloner, William Grindal, William Pickering and James Pilkington._
Thus confirming thee above college entry age of fifteen. Not a clue who any of those other names are nor why they are worthy of inclusion in that chronology.

_1546
Dee is awarded his B A degree and is then appointed Fellow & Under-Reader in Greek at Trinity College, Cambridge._
So he got his BA before being appointed Fellow & Under Reader in Greek. Contrary to the article above. The 18 hour day for four years really paid off.

_1547
Dee makes his first visit to the Low Countries. Dee’s Cambridge production of Aristophanes’ “Peace” earn him the reputation of being a magician after the actor playing Trygaeus makes a miraculous ascent onto the roof of Trinity Hall._
One year into his new job and he buggers off abroad after finding the time to put on a play whose effects get him tagged with the label magician.

_1548
Dee is awarded his M A degree. He then travels to Antwerp to study at the University of Louvain (he studies there from 1548 to 1550) - his teachers include Gemma Phrysius, the geographer. Gerard Mercator is a fellow student._
Fantastic. Another two years of study home and abroad presumably gets him an MA and guess what he buggers off again for yet more study this time in Antwerp. More named connections and enter Gerard who is a 'fellow student'.

_1550
John Dee travels to Paris where he lectures on Euclid’s Elements. Dee meets Oronce Finé (Ortelius) and Antoine Mizauld at about this time._
Now this is REALLY interesting as Euclids geometry doesn't work on a curved surface. Dee must have known this if he was lecturing on Euclid so why did he have anything to do with Mercator who was dreaming up a globe?
And not Ortelius he of map fame/infamy based in globe theory like Mercator.

_1551
Dee visits Orléans and Melun and then returns to England, despite offers from Henri II of France (to become the King’s Mathematical Reader in Paris), Charles V, Tsar Ivan (the Terrible) and others. He is sent for by William Cecil. As a result of his friendship with Cecil, King Edward VI helps Dee with the purchase of books up until his death in 1553._
France now. He got about a bit. A Frebch king wanted an Englishman as his Mathemartical Reader.
Hang on his BA and MA was earned in Greek so why Mathematics?
Well simple really Mathematics is another language jusrt like Greek. Euclid wrote about arithmetic which isn't a language.
Look at all the other royalty claimed to be 'after' his services. But being a 'good egg' he returns to England where a King begins buying him books. Really that sort of thing happens all the time doesn't it.

_1552
Dee enters the service of the Duke of Pembroke, possibly acting as tutor to Henry Herbert, later second Earl of Pembroke, and patron of drama. Later, or in 1553, he enters the service of the Duke of Northumberland. Dee tutors the future Earl of Essex. Dee meets Cardano in Southwark._
King Edward VI is buying the books, he is still employed by Cambridge talking to angels, having a life with his wife and yet he gets job after job with lesser royalty in different parts of the country one year after his return. Superhero status really. No metalled roads to ride on, save 'Roman' roads and only a horse carriage to use. Still he finds the time to get down to London and meet some other named connection. He really doesn't miss a trick nor have any spare time. Must have become a habit these 18 hour working sdays.

_1553
Dee sets himself up as a teacher of mathematics, astronomy and navigation and acts as an advisor for the Muscovy Company from about this date. From 1553 to 1583, his students include Stephen and William Borough, Richard Chancellor, John Davis, Martin Frobisher, Adrian and Humfrey Gilbert, Christopher Hall, Charles Jackman, Anthony Jenkinson, Arthur Pet, Walter Raleigh, Sir Philip Sidney and, possibly, Francis Drake. Many more consulted him, including William Camden, Leonard and Thomas Digges, Edward Dyer, the Hakluyts, Thomas Harriot, Sir Christopher Hatton, Sir William Pickering and Robert Record. Dee is granted the rectory of Upton upon Severn. Despite Dee’s association with Northumberland he is not persecuted - perhaps because of his reputation as a scholar and due to the influence of Cambridge scholars in government._
Who exactky didn't this bloke connect to?
Set himsekf up as teacher eh. Did he fall from grace for some reason?
Did his magician tag come back to bite him in the arse?
And yet he managed to snag yet more paid emloyment.Perhaps he couldn't sleep.
The Mucovy Company brought to mind the duck but it seems it got its charter in 1553 and was formed for a specific purpose; Muscovy Company
_Muscovy Company mŭs´kəvē [key] or Russia Company, first major English joint-stock trading company. It began in 1553 as a group supporting exploration of a possible northeast passage to Asia.

1554
Dee is offered a post to read the Mathematical Sciences at Oxford by Richard Bruern and Richard Smith._
Different year same story, more jobs.

_1555
Dee is made a Freeman of the Mercers’ Company by patrimony. Dee is arrested, together with the Copernican, John Field, Christopher Carye and Sir Thomas Benger, for conjuring, calculating the nativities of the King and Queen and bewitching children. He is released by order of the Privy Council and placed in the care of Bishop Bonner. He is subsequently released and becomes a great friend of Bonner. Births of Jane Fromond (1555-1605), later to become Dee’s wife, and Edward Kelly (1555-?), the mystic who later turns Dee towards conjuration._
Sounds like he was stitched up and turned into a patsy by his release and the body that brought about his release. Wonder if he lost all his jobs and their income due to this.
Also note he is 28 at this point so is 28 years senior to his future wife Jane Fromond at the time of their marriage. Bet that raised a few eybrows or possibly not. Again no mention of his first wife.

_1556
Dee’s first printed publication appears - a preface to John Field’s Ephemeris anni 1557. John Dee also writes his Supplication to Queen Mary decrying the dissolution of the monasteries which had caused the destruction and dispersal of monastic libraries and proposing that he be allowed to create a national library by gathering and copying manuscript texts and purchasing books (see Bodleian Ms Ashmole 1788, ff 80-82). His proposal is rejected, but he begins to purchase, borrow and copy manuscripts anyway (examples of his transcripts include Bodleian Mss Ashmole 57 - Norton’s Ordinall of Alchemy - and 440 - Roger Bacon’s - De speculis comburentibus._
Every time I want to stop writing something more fantastical appears.
A year or so after his imprisonment for a crime against royalty and his release he's writing a begging letter to royalty, as you do, wanting to collect old books and manuscripts. Wonder where all the books King Edward VI bought him went. Surely he would have kept them at Cambridge where they would be safe from harm as that would be the logical thing to do and he did lecturee on logic but what do I know.

_1559
Dee invents the Paradoxal Compass for the Muscovy Company (see Bodleian Ms Ashmole 242 ff 139-153). Despite Dee’s association with the now despised Bishop Bonner, Dee avoids persecution due to his connections with the Dudleys and the Cecils. At Robert Dudley’s request, Dee calculates the most propititious day for the coronation of Elizabeth I - the Queen is crowned on the day recommended and continues to take Dee’s advice during her reign._
Hah!
A good Bishop, whom was prescribed a careful guardian of the ex-prisoner John Dee is now a bad 'despised' Bishop who must have been peresuted but due to 'famiy connectios' (which hitherto have warranted not a single connection note well) gets him out of the shit and he makes up the 'best date' for a Royal Coronation. Dearime. The downs have no effect at all on this character do they!

_1562
Dee travels to Louvain to renew acquaintances and purchase books._
Must have been out of favour as there are no named connections made.

_1563
Dee travels from Antwerp to Zurich (where he meets Gesner and is introduced to the ideas of Paracelsus which he helped to spread throughout Europe) and then crosses the Alps to Italy. In Italy he visits Chiavenna, Padua, Venice (where he meets Rangoni) and Urbino (where he meets Commandino). He then travels to Pressburg (Bratislava) to attend the coronation of Maximilian I as King of Hungary._
Oops spoke too soon.
Seems he is once again popular amongst foreign royalty.
He does an awful lot of spreading of ideas yet weirdly not spreading the truth that Euclidean geometry doesn't work on curved surfaces.

_1564
Publication of John Dee’s Monas Hieroglyphica in Antwerp. In this opaque metaphysical work Dee manipulates the single symbol (the monad) which he argues reveals the unity of created nature. The work is dedicated to Maximilian I. Dee returns to England, accompanying the Marchioness of Northampton from Antwerp to Greenwich. Dee is granted the Deanery of Gloucester. He establishes his house and library at Mortlake this remains his home for the rest of his life (although he continues to travel widely). At about this date Dee commences buying continental books from Andreas Fremonsheim, the agent for Birckmanns of Cologne._
Aah all is well. Normal service has been resumed. More royalty, English this time, more publishing, another job, a new house and library and more book buying.

_1565
Dee may have married at this date._
May? May?
Surely for a man like this the date of his marriage would be set in stone. Presumably it cannot of been Jane Fromond as she would only have been 10 years old whilst he would be 38.

_1570
Publication of Dee’s Mathematicall Praeface to The Elements of Geometry of Euclid of Megara translated by Henry Billingsley. This work had a major influence on the development of mathematics in England, stressing its many practical applications in navigation, architecture, stagecraft and geography. Dee also espoused the virtues of Baconian scientific method and vernacular language. Publication in Pesaro with Commandino of De superficierum divisionubus liber by Abu Bekr Muhammed ben Abdelbagi el-Bagdadi, with a preface by Dee._
Bloody hell he banged some work out.

_1571
Dee travels to Lorraine to furnish his laboratories and continues to Paris to buy books. Dee suffers a further brief illness._
More travelling and book buying and another 'brief' illness. It's probably just me but I feel the word brief is hiding the true nature of the illness.

_1576
Dee’s first wife (?) may have died on this date. Martin Frobisher and Christopher Hall were taught by Dee at about this time (c1576-1578)._
Lost an anonymous wife, possibly, and taught an explorer in the same year. The named connections never end or so it appears.

_1577
Dee commences his diary (entries in Stadius’ Ephemeris and later in Maginus’ Ephemerides coelestium motuum - now Bodleian Mss Ashmole 487 and 488). The diary continues to give an account of his life until 1601. Publication of Dee’s General and Rare Memorials Pertayning to the Perfect Art of Naviation (see Bodleian Ms Ashmole 1789, ff.50-115). This contains the first use of the phrase “British Empire”. Dee meets Leicester, Philip Sidney and Edward Dyer and he may have taught Sidney at this time. Ortelius visits Dee at Mortlake. _
More diaries. The first use of a phrase is hardly 'setting the seed'. The first written use of the phrase would be more accurate. And yet more and more name dropping. Ortelius is the only one from Dee's earlier days who makes a reappearance. Interesting how he meets once and never sees again more often than not.

_1578
Dee marries Jane Fromond (she is 23, Dee is 51). He travels through northern Europe (visiting Hamburg, Berlin and Frankfurt an der Oder amongst other places) at the instigation of Walsingham and Leicester. Dee notes the appearance of a comet._
Amazing, truly amazing. The implication he was sent to Northern Europe to spy. Walsingham being noted for spying. Wonder if he was on the Privy Council that releases Dee all those years ago.

_1579
Birth of Dee’s son, Arthur (1579-1651). Dee is reconciled with Adrian Gilbert and John Davis._
Fertile too boot, but no children to the anonymous first wife, hmm.
Who Adrian and John are I have no idea as they haven't been mentioned before in this chronology but more names, note.

_1580
Dee meets Sir Humfrey Gilbert and is given titles to North America by the Queen. Dee gives Pitt and Jackman directions for a voyage to Cathay. Dee’s mother dies. Dee notes the appearance of a comet._
Titles to North America. What does that mean?
Land, income, rights?
More name dropping connections and his mam dies. She must have been a good age. Hardly a simple villager.

_1582
Talbot (Kelly) visits Mortlake and holds his first seance with Dee. Hugh Platt ad Martinus Faber visit Dee. George Peckham visits Dee to discuss the North-West Passage._
Yet more names I don't recognise call on the hero. Yet to see any example of where his Greek studies were used in later life save for his Euclidean lectures/publications.

_1583
Walsingham and Gilbert visit Dee at Mortlake. Dee works on a number of maps of North America. Dee undertakes work on calendar reform (see Bodleian Ms Ashmole 1789 ff 1-40). Prince Laski visits Dee (accompanied by Sidney) and encourages Dee and Kelly to accompany him back to Europe where the spiritual conferences continue (Dee visits Briel, Bremen, Lübeck, Rostock and Stettin amongst other places). Prior to his visit, Dee compiles a catalogue of his “outer” Library, listing 2,292 books (excluding duplicates) and 199 manuscripts, and noting c800 books which he intended to take on his travels._
The spymaster(s) pay him a personal visit, interesting.
Dee, who despite his life of travelling, never visited North America, was 'working on' (or to my mind possibly 'making up') maps of North America, as you do.
At the same time he was into seances and spiritual conferences. The spymaster(s) must have been okay with this as he was off again all over Europe.

_1585
Dee continues to oscillate between Cracow and Prague. He is given an audience by King Stephen Batory. Dee is made a Doctor of Medicine at Prague University._
Another job, income, badge of status given to this traveller and more royal involvement.

_1586
Whilst Dee is abroad his library at Mortlake is vandalised and books are stolen. Ironically, the largest surviving corpus of Dee’s printed books are those stolen by Nicholas Saunder and now at the Royal College of Physicians. John Davis, a fromer pupil of Dee, also steals some books. Dee corresponds with Walsingham. Dee begins to journey through Leipzig, Erfurt, Trebona and Kassel._
Rather a lot of details on the thieves and vandals. There were 3000 books and manuscripts in his library. Not sure how big the books were individually but they weren't paperbacks and shifting 3000 of them is beyond two men acting alone even if the took a couple of days to do it. Paper and board are heavy.
Not that Dee was bothered as he had the ear of Walsingham. Wonder if it was he who suggested the 'theft' to give 'credibility' to the alleged cotents of the books and manuscripts.
Off he goes again traversing Europe. Wonder if he took his youg wife and child with him on these journey's?

_1587
Dee visits Reichstein. Arthur Dee aids his father in skrying. Dee and Kelly part. Christian Francken visits Dee in Trebona.
1588
Birth of Dee’s second son, Theodore. Dee corresponds with Queen Elizabeth. 
1589
Dee journeys home through Nuremburg, Frankfurt am Main and Bremen. Pezel prints verses in his honour. When the Dees arrive in England they first stay with Richard Young in Stratford (East of London) before returning to Mortlake. Adrian Gilbert visits Dee at Mortlake._
Where was his second son born as in what was his nationality?
Adrain Gilbert gets another mention.

_1592
Dee’s great sea-compass is returned. Dee visits the Archbishop of Canterbury to discuss books. Dee writes the Compendious Rehearsal of John Dee... made unto the two Honourable Commissioners and presents it to the Queen as an appeal for aid (see Bodleian Ms Ashmole 1788, ff. 7-34). The Queen’s Commissioners visit Dee at Mortlake and he is granted a stipend._
Walsingham visits him yet Dee has to go to the Archbishop. Not sure why this feels relevant but it does.
Writes the Queen a begging letter. With all of the connections he has made in life, with all the jobs and awatds he has bee given, makes no sense.

_1594
Dee makes a further appeal to the Queen for money. Death of Dee’s third son, Michael._
Where was all the cash going?

_1595
Archbishop Whitgift offers Dee the wardenship of Manchester. the Birckmann’s of Cologne, from whom Dee bought many of his books, press Dee for money. Birth of Dee’s daughter, Margaret._
Still fertile!
Yet another gift and it seems Dee is skint again.

_1605
Death of Jane Dee and children. Dee returns to Mortlake. _
How many of them and in what circumstance?

_1609
Death of John Dee (1527-1609) aged 82, bibliophile, mathematician, geographer, government agent, magus, promoter of colonisation, astrologer, (al)chemist, natural philosopher and man of learning._
Just clock that list of attributes stuck on this character.

So there it is a conscise life of a man who actually walked the land or a character in a made up historical fantasy.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: StarmonkeyDate: 2019-12-30 15:44:23Reaction Score: 0




jd755 said:


> Never heard of this character before although I had heard of the other characters and places. I use thee word characters because as it reads to me that is precisely what they are, characters in a story.
> There are one helluva lot of claiming done by these characters, claims which cannot be substantiated in any way and of course the recurring theme of divine intervention gets remodelled slighty, angels this time not Lord God, multiple gods or interplanetary beings or interdimensional beings.
> 
> If this comes across as me being sceptical its because I am. It is not a sleight on your post or indeed anyone else's position on this character and his alleged doings, just me writing on a screen about why I feel sceptical.
> ...


As far as you know, given that information.
Being the supposed dates that it was, and how we hardly know what happened 100 years ago, I find it ALL highly questionable.
If Napoleon didn't really exist as such, if JESUS CHRIST really didn't exist as such, well...
Sorry, I'm just making noise. Carry on.


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## HollyHoly (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: HollyHolyDate: 2019-12-30 18:16:10Reaction Score: 6




jd755 said:


> Never heard of this character before although I had heard of the other characters and places. I use the word characters because as it reads to me that is precisely what they are, characters in a story.
> There are one helluva lot of claiming done by these characters, claims which cannot be substantiated in any way and of course the recurring theme of divine intervention gets remodelled slighty, angels this time not Lord God, multiple gods or interplanetary beings or interdimensional beings.
> 
> If this comes across as me being sceptical its because I am. It is not a sleight on your post or indeed anyone else's position on this character and his alleged doings, just me writing on a screen about why I feel sceptical.
> ...


I agree with the questioning of the characters  there is whole big conspiracy theory around Dee, Shakespeare and Bacon, not even gonna try to explain it  but rabbit hole it if you get time.  The legion of alchemists  who got channeled information is so long I dont know where to start . all the new age theopsophists claim their writings were directly channeled from 'angels or ascended masters 
Wickedpedia Channeled Texts channeling has been a real thing for a long time 
furthermore the influence of this channeled material has been considerable since the last reset as they have been founding philosophies of many politicians, heads of state,  educators  and 'scientists' and  have thus entered public policy for a really long time.

most of them have these outrageous timelines associations and  and bizarre travels .  The character aspect comes in  when you realize at some point these people are actors of a kind  seems they can simply slide in anywhere , today Im a doctor  tomorrow Im a spy  etc but we have people like  this walking around among us right now ! Like Anderson Cooper news guy  TV face and CIA operative
Chuck Barris CIA assassin 
Julia Childs She was a CIA spy
Errol Flynn Actor, Ravisher of Women,Adventurer so on and so forth 
just for examples 
there's a ridiculously huge list of these characters  we're surrounded by them


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BalibrewDate: 2019-12-31 13:18:49Reaction Score: 6




jd755 said:


> Never heard of this character before although I had heard of the other characters and places. I use the word characters because as it reads to me that is precisely what they are, characters in a story.
> There are one helluva lot of claiming done by these characters, claims which cannot be substantiated in any way and of course the recurring theme of divine intervention gets remodelled slighty, angels this time not Lord God, multiple gods or interplanetary beings or interdimensional beings.
> 
> If this comes across as me being sceptical its because I am. It is not a sleight on your post or indeed anyone else's position on this character and his alleged doings, just me writing on a screen about why I feel sceptical.
> ...


Brilliant. Most enjoyable read, thank you. I read a book about Dee years ago and it seems he was claiming to have the recipe for turning base metal into gold.  He was visiting lesser European royaly and scamming them into financing his alchemical studies in return for lots of fresh gold and that's how he ended up in prison in Poland!
The book made it quite clear that Dee was also using every means possible to get money and that he was using disembodied minds ( Uriel the "angel") to get information on buried treasure, etc. I found the link to Crowleigh interesting as they both  come across as low life chancers who were determined to scam people  using their very limited psychic powers while freelancing for  the british security agencies.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: StarmonkeyDate: 2019-12-31 18:58:31Reaction Score: 3


I got most of my JD info from Peter Moon, various documentaries and INTUITION.
A couple interesting parts of the story I didn't see above.
Dee and Kelley's wife swapping or... That Dee's wife left him for Kelley.
Crowley's wife's name was Rose Kelley. She helped channel the Book of the Law in the Great Pyramid on their honeymoon. I find most of his stuff nonsensical, but still things to learn from his excessively POOR example of what to do once you throw off the shackles of the moral code.
It's NOT lewdness and debauchery, unless you want to Dorian Gray it. There are still repercussions.
The OTHER Dee related thing was that the "angels" and their counterparts kept trying to warn him about meddling and manipulating. Eventually, when he had monkeyed around TOO MUCH already, Raphael bade him to look at the shadows cast by his stupidity. He gazed into the mirror to behold legions of demonic influences he had loosed.
I'm sure the "archangels", when perceived from THAT belief system, have plenty to do being the pillars of creation and such that the machinations of humanity aren't worth their attention, ftmp.
The Apocalypse will set things to right, don't you worry! New maps time!


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## HollyHoly (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: HollyHolyDate: 2019-12-31 19:14:53Reaction Score: 1




Starmonkey said:


> I got most of my JD info from Peter Moon, various documentaries and INTUITION.
> A couple interesting parts of the story I didn't see above.
> Dee and Kelley's wife swapping or... That Dee's wife left him for Kelley.
> Crowley's wife's name was Rose Kelley. She helped channel the Book of the Law in the Great Pyramid on their honeymoon. I find most of his stuff nonsensical, but still things to learn from his excessively POOR example of what to do once you throw off the shackles of the moral code.
> ...


oh yeah! it only seems to go one way once these characters start interacting with these archonic entities next thing you know its a sex  magic free for all ,GOOD GRIEF!! check out Jack Parsons wife Marjorie Cameron  Krayzee Cameron and Parsons and his buddy L Ron got up to all kinds of  wizardry hank panky  and  not just wife swapping but with each other!  Same  different


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: StarmonkeyDate: 2019-12-31 19:30:19Reaction Score: 3




HollyHoly said:


> oh yeah! it only seems to go one way once these characters start interacting with these archonic entities next thing you know its a sex  magic free for all ,GOOD GRIEF!! check out Jack Parsons wife Marjorie Cameron  Krayzee Cameron and Parsons and his buddy L Ron got up to all kinds of  wizardry hank panky  and  not just wife swapping but with each other!  Same  different


Oh, I know.
PM was in the "church", saw a lot of stuff first hand. He even met her before she gave up the ghost. Wormwood to weird to "enjoy".
Damn REDHEADS () getting up to trouble...
Anyway, repercussions from Babylon for sure, and Crowley is NOT a good role model, so they were basing their work on some drug-addled made-up idiocy to begin with.
And, same as other times of cultural mixing, people are drawn to different or STRANGE, so...
Lots of those clubs and movements still prey on people and their need for acceptance and belonging. You either seek out and follow your own STAR, or it's ALL Wormwood in some way or another.
I overlapped up there. PM was in the LRH "church" years later. NOT the OTO.
Also, in PM's gatherings and assessings, he says Dee had two scrying EGGS. Stones shaped like eggs, made of... I'm not sure...
And that the CROWN started organized piracy for treasures, relics and POWER. Items and places.
Sort of like the STURCH using the Templars for the same, and then selling them out, QE used Captain Kidd for the same, and then his poor ass ended up in the gibbet at Tyburn. Good times. Good judges of character and intentions.
The Caribbean and the Philippines. HOT SPOTS. Eggs possibly found at latter. Maybe a reason for all of the excitement and action there.
And the MOORS...
Here's his supposed flag of admirality. Of the pirates.


AND that whole undertaking was the mafia masquerade as it still is today. Legalized crime.
East India Trading Company.
Double dealers like the CIA.
Incursions, insurgencies, use people, complicate or implicate them, then condemn them of what you encouraged them to do in the first place.
Time to CANCEL that policy or contract. Since they do that all the time, they got NOTHIN on us. There are no rules. There are no debts or obligations. Except possibly just to you and yours. The "village", as it were.
Time to pull the blinds, drop the shackles, let the SCALES fall. Only way to achieve BALANCE. Light as a feather.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-12-31 20:13:59Reaction Score: 0




Starmonkey said:


> A couple interesting parts of the story I didn't see above.


Hardly surprising given the people behind that chronology site.


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## Felix Noille (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: FelixnoilleDate: 2020-01-03 11:32:17Reaction Score: 1




Starmonkey said:


> A couple interesting parts of the story I didn't see above.
> Dee and Kelley's wife swapping or... That Dee's wife left him for Kelley.





Felixnoille said:


> To be honest, the entire saga of Dee and Kelley wandering around in central Europe, their strange adventures and *its infamous wife-swapping ritual*, sounds like a cross between Don Quixote and a Dennis Wheatley novel.


The wife-swapping incident was apparently prompted by either Uriel, Madimi and Ill or Dee's young female spirit guide (who's name escapes me) depending on who's version of the tale you are reading, Anyway, in a very unangelic manner, it was insisted that they must have sex with each other's wives in order to receive greater knowledge - a kind of test.  The challenge was accepted after much deliberation and the wives were persuaded. After this episode Dee and Kelley's relationship fell apart. It's also sometimes claimed that Dee's wife fell pregnant with Kelley's child. Dee's second wife apparently disliked Kelley from the moment she set eyes on him, so getting jiggie with him seems unlikely. I have never before heard the 'Dee's wife left him for Kelley' version though.

Dee's first wife died in 1575, just one year into the marriage, on one of the days that Elizabeth I went to Mortlake to consult him. She refrained from entering the house and consulted him outside by the garden wall. The name of his first wife is not recorded, neither is the actual marriage, but someone seems to have known enough to be able to say that she died one year after.

In the OP I didn't focus on any of this because to me it all sounds like later embellishments or mud-slinging and none of it was really relevant to the main theme of the thread, which wasn't just Dee's biography. Also I didn't want to make it tedious... or at least more tedious.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: Big JohnDate: 2020-01-11 21:25:13Reaction Score: 1




jd755 said:


> Never heard of this character before although I had heard of the other characters and places. I use the word characters because as it reads to me that is precisely what they are, characters in a story.
> There are one helluva lot of claiming done by these characters, claims which cannot be substantiated in any way and of course the recurring theme of divine intervention gets remodelled slighty, angels this time not Lord God, multiple gods or interplanetary beings or interdimensional beings.
> 
> If this comes across as me being sceptical its because I am. It is not a sleight on your post or indeed anyone else's position on this character and his alleged doings, just me writing on a screen about why I feel sceptical.
> ...


That was very in-depth and well thought out. I would like to point out that it seems all Royalty/Emperors/The Rich, seem to have a link of some type back to the Roman/Greek/Egyptian Pagan religions of ancient. They use the current religions Christianity/Islam when it is convenient for them and to keep the peasants under there control (Do as I say don't do as I do). Dee along with other occultist seemed to have a lot of contacts with the Roman Catholic Church, which makes me wonder what the Bishops, Cardinal's, Popes really believe behind closed doors.


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## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2020-01-19 11:54:41Reaction Score: 1


Using the site search to find this thread was a failure. In the string Dr John Dee apparently Dr and Dee are too short or common so are ignored.
Obviously that is a minor issue as external search engines exist.
Here's a concise listing of this characters 'achievements'
The Galileo Project
I came across looking into mabzynns question on this post Tartaria - Paganism, the Destruction of Gnosticism, and the Real Missing Civilization: Cathay
Never having heard of "the Baccallaos canoe/barge" I dived into search which provided me with another character Sir Humphrey Gilbert who I also had never heard of which in turn led to this pdf where John Dee is to be found. https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1056&context=historydiss


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## Felix Noille (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: FelixnoilleDate: 2020-01-20 15:46:39Reaction Score: 1




jd755 said:


> Using the site search to find this thread was a failure


The search works for me...?

Dee wrote a book called '*Brytanici Imperii Limites*' (The Limits of the British Empire) in which he argued that because King Arthur had once extended his kingdom to include Ireland, Greenland, Iceland and parts of the North Pole, so too could Queen Elizabeth I. He also stated that England should conquer new lands through colonisation and that this could be achieved through maritime supremacy.

The book gave evidence to supported the idea that Elizabeth could lay legitimate claim not only to Britain, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, but also Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Greenland, possibly the continent of *America*, and regions even further north - as far in fact as the North Polar ice itself. To prove his point Dee told a story about Arthur that appears nowhere else and which is quite amazing. 

The evidence he gave comes from 2 'lost' books; the *Arthuri Gestis* and *Inventio Fortunata* (also Inventio Fortunate, Inventio Fortunat or Inventio Fortunatae). Both books are known to have existed. Certain aspects of this story seem to be verified by poems in the Mabinogion, which we still have access to, although translated by dubious Victorians who just couldn't resist making their own forged contributions.

The* Inventio Fortunata* was the basis for all of the Hyperborea maps.

This subject really warrants a thread of its own as there's too much to go into here. It's on my list for when time permits, unless anyone else fancies taking it up?


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## ViniB (Jan 9, 2022)

So much to unpack from this thread that i don't even know where to start! Awesome discussion


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## Will Scarlet (Jan 10, 2022)

ViniB said:


> So much to unpack from this thread that i don't even know where to start! Awesome discussion



Felix followed this up with King Arthur in Hyperborea & the Arctic Cataclysm which discusses some of the material above in more detail.


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## ViniB (Jan 10, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> Felix followed this up with King Arthur in Hyperborea & the Arctic Cataclysm which discusses some of the material above in more detail.


Thanks! I'll look it up  i do believe that the story of dee is so fantastic that i'm not entirelly sure that he was even real!!too much incredible claims without enough evidence to back them up. Who or what created this character dee is a mystery, and a big one


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## Will Scarlet (Jan 11, 2022)

ViniB said:


> Thanks! I'll look it up  i do believe that the story of dee is so fantastic that i'm not entirelly sure that he was even real!!too much incredible claims without enough evidence to back them up. Who or what created this character dee is a mystery, and a big one



A bit like Jesus then.


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## ViniB (Jan 11, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> A bit like Jesus then.


Exactly. If we take all characters in his-story similar to Jesus or dee, how long will that list be?


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## Will Scarlet (Jan 11, 2022)

ViniB said:


> Exactly. If we take all characters in his-story similar to Jesus or dee, how long will that list be?



Well, if it's all just fictitious there's no 'history' to investigate and we can all just go home.


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## ViniB (Jan 11, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> Well, if it's all just fictitious there's no 'history' to investigate and we can all just go home.


Maybe, maybe not. It would be interesting to compile said characters to see similarities, then we leave the info to be analysed by everyone and finally we try to puty all the pieces together


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## Will Scarlet (Jan 12, 2022)

ViniB said:


> It would be interesting to compile said characters to see similarities, then we leave the info to be analysed by everyone and finally we try to puty all the pieces together



Perhaps you could do that in another thread.


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## Fawkes (Apr 1, 2022)

With no disrespect whatsoever meant to Dr. Dee and his accomplishments, he was a product of his times and his heritage, just as we all are to some degree (no pun intended on his name). He was of Welsh origin, and lived during the Welsh Tudor era for practically all of his life, so naturally he promoted a Welsh agenda for world empire, just as some Russians promote Russia for the same thing, as noted on this website in various threads, so I get it. The eldest son of Dr. Dee, Arthur (guess who he was named for) , actually was a physician to Tsar Michael I of Russia at one time. Dee himself claimed royal Welsh descent from 9th century Great King of Wales Rhodri Mawr, and spread the story that Welsh Prince Madog discovered America, besides asserting that Brutus of Britain and King Arthur had also conquered lands in America, in order to give their "heir", his Tudor Queen, Elizabeth I, a prior claim there. Dr. Dee was a real person. and also a Christian, so in a way he may have tried to model his life on Jesus, whether he actually regarded him as a "real person" or not.
FUN FACT - While trying to connect the various topics in this thread, I discovered that Philip II of Spain, said in this thread to have provided the Speculum to Dr. Dee, and who became the brother-in-law of the future Queen Elizabeth I, was also the godfather and namesake for the 3rd Baron Philip Wharton, the great-great-grandfather of Philip, 1st Duke of Wharton, founder of the first Hellfire Club. The Speculum, as noted too in this thread, eventually became the property of the later Hellfire Club "guest" Horace Walpole.


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## Fawkes (Apr 2, 2022)

Felix Noille said:


> Francis Dashwood and John Montagu, 4th Earl of Sandwich, who had also together founded the Society of Dilettanti in 1734.


While searching for more continuity between these different Hellfire Clubs, according to the Wikipedia article on Francis Dashwood, "In 1732 Dashwood formed a dining club called the Society of Dilettanti with around 40 charter members (some of whom may have been members of Wharton's original club)". In his Wikipedia biography, Thomas Anson ((c. 1695 – 30 March 1773), a member of the Royal Society, is also mentioned as a founder of that Society of Dilettanti, who later commissioned the mysterious Shugborough inscription, carved on the 18th-century Shepherd's Monument in the grounds of Shugborough Hall in Staffordshire, England. Shugborough inscription - Wikipedia Of course, Dr. John Dee was also known for his mysterious ciphers.


Fawkes said:


> The eldest son of Dr. Dee, Arthur (guess who he was named for) , actually was a physician to Tsar Michael I of Russia at one time.


According to the Geni website, from his eldest son Arthur (who had a recipe for the Philosopher's Stone), Dr. John Dee is the ancestor of certain members of the paleoanthropologist Leakey family, through his descendant, the mother of the biblical prophecy author, James Hatley Frere.
James Hatley Frere - Wikipedia
Mary Leakey - Wikipedia
Richard Leakey - Wikipedia
Louise Leakey - Wikipedia


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## Fawkes (Apr 2, 2022)

The uncle of the first Hellfire Club founder, Philip Wharton, 1st Duke of Wharton, was Goodwin Wharton (1653-1704), who, like Dr. John Dee, was interested in alchemy, alleged that he spoke with angels, besides fairies, and even God! Goodwin Wharton, King of Fairyland
Also like Dee, Goodwin Wharton had an "associate", Mary Parish, and a former Postmaster General financial backer, John Wildman, just as Society of Dilettanti and later Hellfire Club founders Sir Francis Dashwood and and John Montagu, 4th Earl of Sandwich, were also Postmaster Generals, along with Hellfire Club "guest" Benjamin Franklin. Goodwin Wharton eventually became one of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty, and John Montagu served as First Lord of the Admiralty in his political career.
It appears that first Hellfire Club founder Philip Wharton and later Hellfire Club founder John Montagu were 4th cousins, with a common descent from Henry Clifford (1517-1570), 2nd Earl of Cumberland. This would make Goodwin Wharton and John Montagu kin also. In addition, they all appear to descend from the natural "Carey" children proposed as the actual children of King Henry VIII, thus making them closely related to the Welsh Tudor dynasty (and so by marriage to Philip II of Spain, alleged provider of the Speculum to John Dee and godfather/namesake to Wharton ancestor, 3rd Baron Philip Wharton), and descended from all of the royal/legendary Welsh ancestry that John Dee claimed for Queen Elizabeth I and himself.
If Queen Elizabeth I was actually the mother of Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford, and Sir Francis Bacon, both mentioned as actual authors of Shakespeare's plays, and as students of John Dee (with Bacon involved in founding the Rosicrucians, and with Freemasonry), then the Whartons and John Montagu were cousins to them besides. Francis Dashwood, also a founder of the later Hellfire Club, has a connection too, as he was "officially" the first cousin, four times removed of Edward de Vere through his mother, Mary Fane. From his mother besides, Francis Dashwood was the third cousin of Dorothy Fane, the wife of his Hellfire Club co-founder John Montagu, and a direct descendant of Richard Plantagenet, the great-grandfather of King Henry VIII, father of Queen Elizabeth I, making him related to the Tudors amongst other lines of Plantagenet ancestry.


Felix Noille said:


> it’s really worth looking at Horace Walpole’s house inside and out, it’s something else.)


His father, Prime Minister Robert Walpole, actually purchased interior items from the estate of the destitute first Hellfire Club founder, Philip Wharton, Duke of Wharton. I wonder if Horace inherited some of those for his estate and/or Hellfire Club?

Intriguing that Horace has itemized several portraits of Sir Kenelm Digby and his wife "lady Digby" (the former Venetia Stanley) in his home, along with her mother Lucy Percy, the daughter of beheaded traitor Thomas Percy (below). Kenelm Digby was a highly reputed natural philosopher, astrologer, and founding member of the Royal Society, whose father Everard was executed for his role in the Gunpowder Plot, which involved yet another Thomas Percy.







Felix Noille said:


> Dee's Speculum or Mirror still exists in the British Museum. It was aquired in 1773 by none other than Horace Walpole - author, politician, son of the first British Prime Minister and frequent ‘guest’ of the Hellfire Club.


Through his mother, Catherine Shorter, Horace Walpole is another Hellfire Club member with a possible descent from King Henry VIII. Henry VIII, aside from his royal children, was also the granduncle by marriage, through his first wife Catherine of Aragon, of Speculum owner and occultist Philip II, as well as being his father-in-law through his daughter Queen Mary. 


Felix Noille said:


> *Speculum*. This was given to Dee as a gift by Phillipe II of Spain, alleged occultist


Philip II eventually became the brother-in-law of his own nephew, the occultist Holy Roman Emperor Rudolf II, whom John Dee later sought patronage from. Their great-great-great-grandson and great-great-great-grandnephew, respectively, the future Holy Roman Emperor Francis I, in 1731 was initiated into freemasonry (Grand Lodge of England). During a subsequent visit to England, Francis was made a Master Mason at another specially convened lodge at Houghton Hall, the Norfolk estate of British Prime Minister Robert Walpole, father of Hellfire Club "guest" and Speculum owner Horace Walpole.


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## Fawkes (Apr 5, 2022)

Felix Noille said:


> the current reaction to ‘freemasonry’ is that it’s an integral part of the problem and so it is, however, there are theories claiming that what we have today is a twisted, evil version of something that was once honourable. *Moorish Science* is often cited as one such ‘something’.


According to Michelle Gibson, "Muurish/Moorish-American Master Adepts in the present day are wisdom-keepers of ancient sacred Kemetic Mysteries and Knowledge about all Creation. They are living practitioners of Egyptian Yoga, known as Uacheta Smai Tawi, or Wadjet Yoga; and Medu Neter, the language of the Egyptian Hieroglyphs."

Going by certain fabulous male line pedigrees of the royal Tudor and Habsburg families (and thus including John Dee's claimed royal Welsh ancestry and also King Philip II of Spain, who allegedly gave the Speculum to him), they would descend from Hercules Lybius (North African origin), the son of Osiris (legendary first Pharaoh Mizraim), the son of Ham (allotted Africa by his father Noah). Did empire building (both British and Habsburg) corrupt the "honourable something" that was originally "Moorish Science"?


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## Will Scarlet (Apr 5, 2022)

Fawkes said:


> According to Michelle Gibson



and she also thinks the Philadelphia Experiment was a real event that caused some kind of history time-loop.



Fawkes said:


> Did empire building (both British and Habsburg) corrupt the "honourable something" that was originally "Moorish Science"?



No. What we know as Egypt today was only given that name fairly recently.

PS: My brother, Felix, has asked me to pass on his thanks for your repeated confirmations of statements from his OP.


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## Fawkes (Apr 5, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> and she also thinks the Philadelphia Experiment was a real event that caused some kind of history time-loop.


Really? My Father's much older Stepbrother was the Naval Supply Corps Commander at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard during WW2. I do beg your pardon, what year is this I'm in now?  Seriously, I honestly don't know that much about Michelle Gibson (I found a link for her on another thread that doesn't work), but mentioned her because Felix had done so in this thread, with the statement "_Michelle_ _Gibson_ has done a great deal of work to show how such structures are aligned to a worldwide grid based upon the Flower of Life symbol." So I imagined perhaps Felix thought that there was some credibility to her?



Will Scarlet said:


> No. What we know as Egypt today was only given that name fairly recently.


I am not sure that I follow you. Doesn't "Moorish Science" supposedly predate the naming of Egypt, although it is believed to have taken root there in ancient times? Speaking of the Philadelphia Experiment, not that far across the Delaware River from it, in New Jersey, is what was Ong's Hat, where another secret history story took place, starting with a "Wali Ford" who supposedly started a "Moorish Science" ashram there in 1978, with eventual alternate dimensional travel taking place at that location. How Do You Start a Conspiracy Theory?


Will Scarlet said:


> My brother, Felix, has asked me to pass on his thanks for your repeated confirmations of statements from his OP.


Please tell him that I am DEE-lighted to hear that! 

Below, the Pedigree which Dr. John Dee made, tracing his descent from the mythical times of King Arthur, and showing Queen Elizabeth, through her Welsh ancestry, as related to the same source, is illuminated with coats of arms and a small coloured profile portrait of “John Dee, philosophus,” in a cap and furred gown. He here describes his grandfather, Bedo Dee, as a soldier fighting under the Emperor Maximilian I., in 1512; his father, Rowland Dee, armiger, as gentleman sewer to King Henry VIII.; and himself as a philosopher.

British Library

Dr. John Dee on the Geni genealogical site - shows his male line ancestry back to the historical Great King of Wales Rhodri Mawr, and from there to the unhistorical Beli Mawr "The Great" and Anna, cousin of the Virgin Mary. This will lead back in other Welsh pedigrees to the mythical Brutus the Trojan, and then from the Trojans, as I have mentioned before, in selective pedigrees to Hercules Lybius (North African origin), the son of Osiris (legendary first Pharaoh Mizraim), the son of Ham (allotted Africa by his father Noah). Noah, of course, descends from Adam and Eve.

Habsburg Emperor Maximilian I, whom Dr. John Dee's grandfather, Bedo Dee, fought for, was the great-grandfather of Philip II of Spain, who supposedly gave John Dee the Speculum.


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## Will Scarlet (Apr 6, 2022)

Fawkes said:


> So I imagined perhaps Felix thought that there was some credibility to her?



That was some years ago. He knows better now.



Fawkes said:


> it is believed to have taken root there in ancient times



But where? Where was the Egypt of ancient times? Was it anywhere within the influence of the Moors?

So, did the Moors build all the megalithic structures that are present everywhere? I know that in Spain, because the word "Moros" simply means 'stranger' or 'foreigner', they are being accredited as the constructors of all the Bronze Age Ringforts in Northern Spain in areas where they never had any presence or influence whatsoever. I smell an agenda...



Fawkes said:


> tracing his descent from the mythical times of King Arthur,





Fawkes said:


> This will lead back in other Welsh pedigrees to the mythical Brutus the Trojan



In Dee's time these things were not so mythical. His claim to a 'British Empire' was based upon original documents that had already vanished by the 16th century and others that disappeared soon after his death.

King Arthur in Hyperborea & The Arctic Mud Flood Cataclysm.


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## Fawkes (Apr 6, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> But where? Where was the Egypt of ancient times? Was it anywhere within the influence of the Moors?


According to some of these "Moorish Science" offshoots in America, the Moors were responsible for ancient civilizations, hence MOORocco in North Africa, and of course AMOORica. As far as I can tell (and I am certainly no expert on this) from their teachings (or "agenda", as you might call it), Egypt was always in "Egypt", but their mystery schools originally derived from the Moors. However, historically speaking, "In Libya there remained a solitary oracle of Amun in the Libyan Desert at the oasis of Siwa. The worship of Ammon was introduced into Greece at an early period, probably through the medium of the Greek colony in Cyrene, which must have formed a connection with the great oracle of Ammon in the Oasis soon after its establishment. Iarbas, a mythological king of Libya (this character is possibly based on a historical king of Numidia), was also considered a son of Hammon. When Alexander the Great advanced on Egypt in later 332 BC, he was regarded as a liberator. He was pronounced son of Amun at this oracle, thus conquering Egypt without a fight. Henceforth, Alexander often referred to Zeus-Ammon as his true father, and after his death, currency depicted him adorned with the Horns of Ammon as a symbol of his divinity." Amun - Wikipedia

Ancient "Libya" was a home of the very ancient indigenous North African "Berber" (Amazigh) people, later referred to by Europeans as "Moors". Some of these Libyans actually formed Egyptian Pharaonic dynasties over time. I have even read that the predynastic rulers of Egypt were actually Berber, and that the ancient Berbers claimed that they originated from the lost continent of Atlantis (Atlantic Ocean and Atlas Mountains proximity to MOORocco).


Will Scarlet said:


> In Dee's time these things were not so mythical. His claim to a 'British Empire' was based upon original documents that had already vanished by the 16th century and others that disappeared soon after his death.


Just for fun, through my Father's Mother I have a descent from Welsh immigrant Cadwalader Evans (1664-1745), and, from memory, I believe one of his family brought an Evans pedigree to America, etched on leather to preserve it, that traces their male line back to Great King of Wales Rhodri Mawr in the 9th century, just like Dr. Dee. You have mentioned that you are English, would you and Felix have some sort of Welsh royal line like that, that piqued your interest in Dr. Dee/King Arthur research?


Will Scarlet said:


> King Arthur in Hyperborea & The Arctic Mud Flood Cataclysm.


Interesting, the wrong pole, but the first thing I thought of was "AnARTHURica"!  Much later, wasn't Hyperborea somehow merged with "Thule" as the home of the "Aryan Master Race"?

From memory, I seem to recall that Geoffrey of Monmouth had King Arthur just about to claim the Roman Empire, when he had to return to England because of Mordred's rebellion?


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## Will Scarlet (Apr 7, 2022)

Fawkes said:


> hence MOORocco in North Africa, and of course AMOORica



That's very English - 'Moor', In Spanish it's Moro, as in Morocco, Armorica, but as I explained, it means 'foreign', like the Scottish 'sassenach' means outlander, or foreigner. Therefore, to claim that something in America was built by Moors (or Moros - especially in South America,) is to say that it was built by foreigners or 'people other than us'.

The Amun / Ammon / Aten thing is a whole different kettle of fish... Tutankhamen The Ramones, Akehnaten etc...



Fawkes said:


> would you and Felix have some sort of Welsh royal line like that, that piqued your interest in Dr. Dee/King Arthur research?



Well, as you come to mention it, we are descended from Emrys Bendragon of Barri Island, Wales, through our mother's second cousin's, maiden aunt's, neighbour's window cleaner.

Felix and I have made an attempt to tackle the subject of King Arthur's identity and deeds in the process of writing this:

A Quest for the Lost Realm of Faërie


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## ViniB (Apr 7, 2022)

Fawkes said:


> Just for fun, through my Father's Mother I have a descent from Welsh immigrant Cadwalader Evans (1664-1745), and, from memory, I believe one of his family brought an Evans pedigree to America, etched on leather to preserve it, that traces their male line back to Great King of Wales Rhodri Mawr in the 9th century, just like Dr. Dee. You have mentioned that you are English, would you and Felix have some sort of Welsh royal line like that, that piqued your interest in Dr. Dee/King Arthur research?


Is there any original document about this pedigree connection to this 9th cebtury king or we're dealing with later copies because the original is nowhere to be found?


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## Fawkes (Apr 8, 2022)

ViniB said:


> Is there any original document about this pedigree connection to this 9th cebtury king or we're dealing with later copies because the original is nowhere to be found?


In Post #30 I provided the pedigree that Dr. John Dee (1527-1608) created for his royal Welsh descent, and you can see how it has been preserved in the British Library. British Library. Regarding earlier copies, as Will Scarlet said in Post #31, "In Dee's time these things were not so mythical. His claim to a 'British Empire' was based upon original documents that had already vanished by the 16th century and others that disappeared soon after his death." I imagine that the original pedigree documents have disappeared by now also. Just to give you an idea of how it might work, here is a copy of a royal Welsh pedigree starting with Bell Mawr, going down in the male line through Rhodri Mawr, Great King of all Wales in the 9th century (Generation No. 37), to the Pugh family. Generation No. 62 shows Evan Robert Lewis, whose son Evan was the father of my immigrant ancestor Cadwalader Evans (1664-1745). Thus,  Cadwalader was a cousin of the Pughs. http://www.orderofthemysticalrose.org/Library/Pedigree.pdf
Generation No. 47, RHY-GRYD, was also the father, by his wife Ellyw verch Trahaearn, of Philip ap Rhys-Gryd, the male line ancestor of Dr. John Dee.


Will Scarlet said:


> Well, as you come to mention it, we are descended from Emrys Bendragon of Barri Island, Wales, through our mother's second cousin's, maiden aunt's, neighbour's window cleaner.


Sorry, Will, he's not in my and Dr. Dee's royal Welsh pedigree, sounds like a lot of HOGwa(rt)sh to me! Of course, "Fawkes" is real.


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## Fawkes (Apr 8, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> In Dee's time these things were not so mythical. His claim to a 'British Empire' was based upon original documents that had already vanished by the 16th century and others that disappeared soon after his death.


So in your opinion the ancient mythical British Kings going back to Brutus the Trojan were real? I had stated before you made that comment that Dr. Dee was


> tracing his descent from the mythical times of King Arthur,





> This will lead back in other Welsh pedigrees to the mythical Brutus the Trojan



So Dr. Dee's royal Welsh pedigree (and thus my connection to it) is correct then, and was not fulfilling his own personally created "agenda" for a British Empire, as you "smell" that these Moorish Science offshoots are, for claiming that all ancient civilizations originated with the Moors?


Felix Noille said:


> I know the current reaction to ‘freemasonry’ is that it’s an integral part of the problem and so it is, however, there are theories claiming that what we have today is a twisted, evil version of something that was once honourable. *Moorish Science* is often cited as one such ‘something’.


"He knows better now" concerning Moorish Science also?


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## Fawkes (Apr 8, 2022)

Felix Noille said:


> At around exactly the same time as the first Hellfire Club appeared, a serious schism occurred within *freemasonry*. I know the current reaction to ‘freemasonry’ is that it’s an integral part of the problem and so it is, however, there are theories claiming that what we have today is a twisted, evil version of something that was once honourable. *Moorish Science* is often cited as one such ‘something’.
> 
> In 1717 the Premier Grand Lodge of England was established in the City of London and so-called because it claimed it was the first Masonic Grand Lodge to be created. However, the Most Ancient and Honourable Society of Free and Accepted Masons in York disagreed. The upstart grand lodge was cobbled together from four existing Lodges who gathered at the Goose and Gridiron Ale-house in St. Paul's Church-yard in *The City of London* where they constituted themselves into a Grand Lodge. These four lodges (or were they mini Hellfire Clubs?) were all named after the pubs where they held their meetings.
> 
> ...


I should like to mention that George Washington, the first President of the United States, inaugurated in New YORK City, the capital of the United States at that time, was indeed a Freemason, as was the patrician New Yorker, Franklin D. Roosevelt, elected to an unprecedented four terms as President, who oversaw the United States become the leading world power during World War II . "Old" York "City", in England, is also where North African Roman Emperor Septimius Severus ruled the Roman Empire from in the last years of his life, seven centuries before York became, traditionally, the first Grand Lodge in England. Could the "Moorish Science", that Felix Noille mentioned, been spread to York through Emperor Severus and/or his soldiers, as he was expanding the Roman Empire in Britain, and been a basis for Freemasonry, which wound up as a "corruption" of it? Also note that the Roman Emperor Constantius Chlorus later campaigned and ended his life in York, like Emperor Severus, and his son Constantine the Great was acclaimed as Emperor there, who approved the toleration of Christianity, which was also eventually exported to the American colonies, along with Freemasonry. Is there any connection between "Old" York / "New" York, "Empire", and organizations with redeeming knowledge, or is this all just a coincidence?


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## Fawkes (Apr 9, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> But where? Where was the Egypt of ancient times? Was it anywhere within the influence of the Moors?


I just found this, is that what you are talking about, looks like more "Moorish Science" to me. ??? The Washitaw Moors


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## Quiahuitl (Apr 9, 2022)

Fawkes said:


> "Old" York "City", in England, is also where North African Roman Emperor Septimius Severus ruled the Roman Empire from in the last years of his life, seven centuries before York became, traditionally, the first Grand Lodge in England. Could the "Moorish Science", that Felix Noille mentioned, been spread to York through Emperor Severus and/or his soldiers, as he was expanding the Roman Empire in Britain, and been a basis for Freemasonry, which wound up as a "corruption" of it? Also note that the Roman Emperor Constantius Chlorus later campaigned and ended his life in York, like Emperor Severus, and his son Constantine the Great was acclaimed as Emperor there, who approved the toleration of Christianity, which was also eventually exported to the American colonies, along with Freemasonry. Is there any connection between "Old" York / "New" York, "Empire", and organizations with redeeming knowledge, or is this all just a coincidence?



I'd like to see evidence that two Roman emperors lived in York.

As an aside - York is still the second most important church centre in England after Canterbury.  Most people don't know that Glastonbury Abbey was the third most important until the reformation.  My take on this is that they had preserved the Magdalene line in Glastonbury and possibly still had women priests there.  The Abbey is built on the site of a pair of springs, one white and one red, which represented the masculine and feminine forces and was an important pre-Christian site.  So the abbey was destroyed and the Patriarchy established.  My opinion.


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## Will Scarlet (Apr 9, 2022)

Fawkes said:


> So Dr. Dee's royal Welsh pedigree (and thus my connection to it) is correct then, and was not fulfilling his own personally created "agenda" for a British Empire, as you "smell" that these Moorish Science offshoots are, for claiming that all ancient civilizations originated with the Moors?



Neither Felix nor I are stating anything as being a fact or true, this is all speculation. Dee's ideas concerning the *re-establishment* of some kind of empire or kingdom were not his own personal creation:

'“_Note the Colonies sent by King Arthur into all the north Islands and by name into Grocland, which I yet suppose to be the same which is otherwise anciently known as Groenland [i.e., Greenland] and of that you had the word before owt of the boke De Priscus Anglorum Legibus” (Dee assumes that Grocland is Greenland based soley upon the shared ‘Gr’. However, on Mercator's globe Grocland lies west of Greenland and may be a representation of the Arctic Baffin Island.)

The source he refers to was William Lambarde's Archaionomia sive de Priscus Anglorum Legibus libri (1568), which Dee had a copy of in his famous library. This same source was also known to Richard Hakluyt, another proponent of an Arthurian Atlantic and Arctic empire, who would translate it later in his ‘Principal Nauigations’ (1599):

“Arthur which was sometimes the most renowned king of the Britains, was a mightie, and valiant man, and a famous warriour. This kingdome was too litle for him, & his minde was not contented with it. He therefore valiantly subdued all Scantia, which is now called Norway, and all the Islands beyond Norway, to wit, Island [i.e., Iceland] and Greenland, which are apperteining vnto Norway, Sweueland, Ireland, Gotland, Denmarke, Semeland, Windland [Latin text, Winlandiam], Curland, Roe, Femeland [i.e., Finland], Wireland, Flanders, Cherilland, Lapland, and all the other lands & Islands of the East sea, euen vnto Russia* (in which Lapland he placed the Easterly bounds of his Brittish Empire) and many other Islands beyond Norway, euen vnder the North pole, which are appendances of Scantia, now called Norway.”

William Lambarde himself had a very clear source for the text he gave in his Priscus Anglorum Legibus - a manuscript of the Leges Edwardi Confessoris that contained an Arthurian section taken from the Leges Anglorum Londoniis Collectae, from c. 1210. (I hope you’re following this because I’m not sure I do…) The tradition of Arthur as an Arctic conqueror must certainly go back to at least the very early thirteenth century._'

(The above is from the King Arthur in Hyperborea thread linked earlier.)



Fawkes said:


> "He knows better now" concerning Moorish Science also?



His ideas and theories are constantly changing and evolving - even devolving sometimes. Neither he nor I have a clear opinion regarding Moorish Science... or much else either if truth be told.



Fawkes said:


> New YORK City, the capital of the United States



Well, originally it was New Amsterdam, the capital of New Netherlands - a colony of Dutch / Flemish people. The story goes that when the English took it over in 1664 they named it after The Duke of York, the future James II & VI of England & Scotland. The so-called York Rite version of freemasonry was / is very popular in America, who knows if that was named after the Grand Lodge at York or the Duke? The heretical masonic York Legend claims a descent from Prince Edwin, as I'm sure you're aware.



Fawkes said:


> I just found this, is that what you are talking about, looks like more "Moorish Science" to me. ???



Yes and No.  With regard to that particular article, I don't really find the "Mu'ur" - Moor connection convincing. Ur was a Sumerian city in Mesopotamia so it's just as likely that " Mu'ur" could refer to that, but not as convenient for the authors bias. The word "Moor" has meant different things to different people at different times. These days it seems to be a label for black muslims in general.

What is interesting is the claim that they "were originally a group of priests from the Egypt of the west (Old Egypt.)" Again, the author's bias interprets this as meaning Egypt in America. I'm not saying he's wrong, just that I'm not convinced, but it shows that there is something 'afoot'.

Homer used the name Aegyptus (Aigyptos) at a time when the natives of that area of Africa called it Hwt-ka-Ptah. Before that they called it Kemet (Kermit), or simply Kmt. Today they call it Misr. They never called their own land Egypt or Aegyptus, so why do we assume that the place referred to in Homer's Odyssey was ever anything to do with Misr, Hwt-ka-Ptah, Kermit or even Miss Piggy? Because we've been sold another lie?

This is a huge subject and one that involves many issues, such as where was Troy really? Who were the Achaens and where did they live (ditto for the Trojans)? Personally, I am still largely in the dark about most of it and simply exploring possibilities. However, I am quite convinced that there is something to be discovered.

The situation is very similar to those cheesy movies where the authorities are searching for the culprit of some misdemeanor, let's call him Fred Bloggs, and they confront a crowd demanding to know "Who is Fred Bloggs?" The culprit says "I am," then someone else says "No, it's me!" Then someone else says the same and so on and so on. And so it is with Ancient history - the Holy Land is in Palestine, no, France, no Africa, no California, no the Isle of Skye, etc. etc. It's all a smoke-screen deliberately put there to make it as difficult as possible to see the truth.


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## Fawkes (Apr 9, 2022)

Quiahuitl said:


> I'd like to see evidence that two Roman emperors lived in York.


Eboracum - Wikipedia


Will Scarlet said:


> Neither Felix nor I are stating anything as being a fact or true, this is all speculation.





Will Scarlet said:


> His ideas and theories are constantly changing and evolving - even devolving sometimes. Neither he nor I have a clear opinion regarding Moorish Science... or much else either if truth be told.


That makes three of us!  At least we can agree to disagree, and perhaps learn something from each other in the process.


Will Scarlet said:


> What is interesting is the claim that they "were originally a group of priests from the Egypt of the west (Old Egypt.)"


I found that intriguing also, because, from memory, the "AMORC" American Rosicrucian organization believed that those priests were the founders of the mystery schools that the Pharaohs were admitted to (at least in North African Egypt), and much later in time those mystery schools became the Rosicrucian Order (that's a no-brainer, I guess, when you consider the "source").
Having not known about her before, I have been researching Michelle Gibson, and now have a better understanding of, if not total agreement with, some of the beliefs and postings on this site, such as the mudslides, time reset, and the Great Exhibition of 1851. Her take on the "Moors" appears to be that "the Washitaw Empire in north America, Tartaria in Asia, Barbaria in North Africa, the Mughal Empire in present-day Bangladesh, India, and Pakistan, among others, were empires within the advanced Moorish Civilization, with roots in ancient Mu, and that it was a continuous civilization through Atlantis up until relatively recently. Moorish Science and Master Masons are behind all of the sacred geometry applications in architecture and alignments with heaven and earth worldwide. Moorish Masonry has 360-degrees, and Freemasonry has 33-degrees." These "Moors" seem to be much more inclusive than the "Moors" of "Moorish Science", so I was deliberating if Felix actually meant their "freemasonry", instead of that of "Moorish Science", as "something that was once honourable". Perhaps the two synthesize in a way that I am not aware of yet, though.
I could believe in the following part of her teaching, if not in fact, but as an ideal,
"The Ancient Advanced Civilization was a a civilization where each being knew it was sovereign, and yet an integral part of the whole collective. It was all about aligning Heaven and Earth in the fullest expression of Human Potential that there has ever been here on Earth. Higher even than Atlantis and Lemuria were reputed to be. Pure Human Genius…in Group/Unity Consciousness.
Muurish/Moorish-American Master Adepts in the present day are wisdom-keepers of ancient sacred Kemetic Mysteries and Knowledge about all Creation. They are living practitioners of Egyptian Yoga, known as Uacheta Smai Tawi, or Wadjet Yoga; and Medu Neter, the language of the Egyptian Hieroglyphs." That last sentence is quite a tongue twister for me, though, and I speak to you not with "forked tongue"!
I wonder if Michelle Gibson was ever a member of this group, it seems tailor-made for her.



Will Scarlet said:


> Yes and No.


I am beginning to think that you are one of those equivocating Jesuit Coadjutors trying to ensnare me! (lol)


Will Scarlet said:


> The situation is very similar to those cheesy movies where the authorities are searching for the culprit of some misdemeanor, let's call him Fred Bloggs, and they confront a crowd demanding to know "Who is Fred Bloggs?" The culprit says "I am," then someone else says "No, it's me!" Then someone else says the same and so on and so on.



This is what you immediately made me think of - 





Will Scarlet said:


> The so-called York Rite version of freemasonry was / is very popular in America, who knows if that was named after the Grand Lodge at York or the Duke?


"The *York Rite*, sometimes referred to as the *American Rite*, since it is named for, but not practiced in York" York Rite - Wikipedia



Will Scarlet said:


> Dee's ideas concerning the *re-establishment* of some kind of empire or kingdom were not his own personal creation:


Yes, I had read that recommended thread, and never knew those stories about King Arthur before, but what I meant is that it was Dee's own personal AGENDA to "sell" that Arthurian history to Queen Elizabeth, who had Welsh ancestry like him, in order to create (or recreate?) the British Empire. That being said, as I stated at the beginning of my postings on this thread, "With no disrespect whatsoever meant to Dr. Dee and his accomplishments, he was a product of his times and his heritage, just as we all are to some degree (no pun intended on his name). He was of Welsh origin, and lived during the Welsh Tudor era for practically all of his life, so naturally he promoted a Welsh agenda for world empire, just as some Russians promote Russia for the same thing, as noted on this website in various threads, so I get it." Perhaps I am subconsciously promoting the "American Moors" as my "agenda", because I myself am American!


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## Quiahuitl (Apr 10, 2022)

Fawkes said:


> Eboracum - Wikipedia


Thanks

I'm fascinated by the theory that a thousand years have been added into the timeline.  I had already heard long ago that Caractacus was a Welsh king (with a Welsh name like Ceridwyn)  at the same time as being well known in Rome. It seems to me a lot of characters might have had a Roman name and a local name.

So I'm wondering if what we now call the crusades was just soldiers being drafted from England to go and fight for the Roman Empire in the Middle East? All occurring from what we now call 1100 - 1300 (approx) but really I100 to I300 then the Roman empire left England around 400AD and so no more English soldiers were drafted?


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## Fawkes (Apr 11, 2022)

Felix Noille said:


> _Michelle Gibson_ has done a great deal of work to show how such structures are aligned to a worldwide grid based upon the Flower of Life symbol.


From reading her website, it appears that Michelle Gibson got those Flower of Life grid ideas from "Drunvalo Melchizedek" (not his real name), a controversial New Age teacher - Drunvalo Melchizedek - Wikipedia


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## Will Scarlet (Apr 11, 2022)

Quiahuitl said:


> All occurring from what we now call 1100 - 1300 (approx) but really I100 to I300 then the Roman empire left England around 400AD and so no more English soldiers were drafted?



This doesn't make sense, I think you've mistyped the numbers somehow. What you're talking about doesn't have any relevance to this thread. I realise that it has gone a bit off-topic lately. but what you are now discussing is way too far off. There are plenty of other threads on SH that deal with this subject, or try starting your own maybe.



Fawkes said:


> At least we can agree to disagree,



about what?


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## Fawkes (Apr 11, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> about what?


About anything, generally, or about this thread topic, specifically.


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## Will Scarlet (Apr 11, 2022)

Fawkes said:


> These "Moors" seem to be much more inclusive than the "Moors" of "Moorish Science", so I was deliberating if Felix actually meant their "freemasonry", instead of that of "Moorish Science", as "something that was once honourable".



There's an updated version of this thread on our website that Felix wrote last autumn-ish. It doesn't mention Michelle Gibson and only mentions Moorish Science as being but one theory as to the origins of freemasonry and he goes on to highlight 'The York Legend' as another theory (as he does in this original version.)

Perhaps if you want to discuss the 'American Moors' it would be better if you start another thread, that way you might get an audience that actually has some interest in it, because here it's way off topic. It would probably fit in nicely with the 'Holy Land is California' and the 'Rome is New York' threads as it would no doubt appeal to the same crowd.


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## Fawkes (Apr 12, 2022)

Felix Noille said:


> It would seem that we have a trail that leads from Dee and Kelley in the 16th century to Dashwood’s Hellfire Club in the 18th century (plus maybe the earlier Dublin club) and then on to Aleister Crowley in the 20th.


Then we have Aleister Crowley as supposedly being the actual father of Barbara (Pierce) Bush, the husband of President George Herbert Walker Bush (also a former CIA Director), and the mother of President George W. Bush, both Skull and Bone members, involving more secret and perhaps sinister shenanigans, not to mention being at the Bohemian Grove later on.


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## Fawkes (Apr 12, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> There's an updated version of this thread on our website that Felix wrote last autumn-ish.


I saw there that apparently Bavarian Illuminati founder Adam Weishaupt was also very interested in Dee's work. Weishaupt was also a German Freemason, using it for his own purposes to recruit members for the Illuminati, by presenting it as pure Masonry, along with his Illuminati (and also fellow Freemason) associate Adolph Freiherr Knigge, who organized the ritual structure. If that wild story of Weishaupt substituting for President George Washington, an American Freemason, has any credence, could this be an example of a more "twisted, evil Freemasonry" taking over America via the Illuminati? The later President Thomas Jefferson, a founder of the "Republican" (now Democratic) party that was politically in opposition to the Federalist party of Washington, sympathized with Weishaupt and the purpose of his Illuminati. An example of "divide and conquer"?

I also read that "John Dee has also been associated with the baffling Voynich manuscript". Dee sold it to Emperor Rudolf II, giving him yet another Habsburg association. This work has been credited to the 13th century philosopher, scientist, alchemist, and "wizard" *Roger Bacon*, who in turn was almost certainly influenced by English statesman, scholastic philosopher, theologian, scientist and Bishop of Lincoln *Robert Grosseteste*. A letter from *Gerald of Wales*, archdeacon of Brecon and historian, extolling the skills of Grosseteste still survives. Maternally, a great-grandfather of Gerald of Wales was the last King of South Wales, *Rhys ap Tewdwr, the male line ancestor of Doctor John Dee! "Six degrees of separation" to another royal Welsh connection.*
Of course there is no evidence yet that Roger Bacon,  whose writings John Dee collected in his library, and Francis Bacon, pupil of John Dee, were related (though I would not be surprised at that), but their accomplishments certainly were! AMORC, the American Rosicrucian organization, actually claims that Roger Bacon was a "Rosicrucian" (actually, proto-Rosicrucian would be a more accurate description), and that Francis Bacon was the "Imperator" of the Rosicrucian Order in his day.


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## Will Scarlet (Apr 13, 2022)

No doubt you're related to most of these people.


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## Fawkes (Apr 13, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> No doubt you're related to most of these people.


Just as no doubt you're related to the author of this thread and the Merry Men.  Since you brought up the subject about my relatives, please Thank Felix for his Guy Fawkes reference, I'm glad he enjoyed the book about him! Here is my take on this illustration that Felix posted on his earlier thread here, and also on his updated site- Dr. Dee was actually the secret personal physician of Guy Fawkes/King James I (perhaps Dee even helped him change identities), just as his son Arthur Dee was the personal physician to the son of King James I, King Charles I, see how it runs in the family? As for the "resurrected" Kelley, he must have actually escaped his Continental prison and become a "Talbot" again in England, thus "dying" as Kelley to the outside world.




The closest royal connection for Dr. Dee that I can find (at least in his own mind) was whom he called his "cosen", Blanche Parry, who attended to Queen Elizabeth I from the time she was born, when Dee was only 6! Blanche later became the Godmother to Dee's oldest son Arthur. Her biography and ancestry, with several source websites to check out- Blanche Parry (abt.1508-1590) | WikiTree FREE Family Tree


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## Will Scarlet (Apr 14, 2022)

Fawkes said:


> Dr. Dee was actually the secret personal physician of Guy Fawkes/King James I



You have proof of this do you or is it another theory by an avant-garde experimental royal researcher? Dee died at 81 years old and yet we are expected to believe that he was still working as a physician and magically transforming James I into Guy Fawkes? Anyway, by what you said in the other thread, I thought you claimed it was James I's secret half brother who was Fawkes and to whom you are related?



Fawkes said:


> As for the "resurrected" Kelley, he must have actually escaped his Continental prison and become a "Talbot" again in England, thus "dying" as Kelley to the outside world.



The documented sources put him in Prague at the time of his death around 1597-98, for which there are 2 different versions, neither of which include resurrection. Again, where is the evidence to show that the illustration from the 1841 'Historical Romance' above isn't also fictional?

Felix presented that illustration to 'illustrate' how myths and legends continued to be attached to Dee and Kelley long after their deaths and to therefore cast doubt upon the 'official' versions of their lives and adventures. He was (and still is) particularly bothered by the general accreditation to Dee of the Spanish Armada's defeat by the storm in the Channel whilst he was still abroad in Europe. This accreditation is also implied in Shakespeare's 'The Tempest'. This theme of defending the British Isles by the conjuring of storms has a tradition that goes back many centuries beyond even Dee's time.



Fawkes said:


> Thank Felix for his Guy Fawkes reference, I'm glad he enjoyed the book about him!



Eh?



Fawkes said:


> see how it runs in the family?



I'm beginning to see what runs in families... I'm sure if most people go back into their family trees far enough they will find that they are related to famous and infamous people and the further back they go the relationships increase exponentially until everyone is related to everyone else.


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## Fawkes (Apr 14, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> Felix presented that illustration to 'illustrate' how myths and legends continued to be attached to Dee and Kelley long after their deaths and to therefore cast doubt upon the 'official' versions of their lives and adventures.


I realize that, and was just offering my "take" on it, as I mentioned. You yourself mentioned that you engage in "speculation", that is what I was doing. No one else was involved, I was just adding to the novel with my interpretation. When I read some of the other threads on this site, my "speculation" actually seems pretty tame by comparison, but I realize now that it didn't fly with you. You could also say that myths and legends continued to be attached to King Arthur too, like his going to the North Pole. My take on that would be, did Merlin then change him into Santa Claus? 


Will Scarlet said:


> I thought you claimed it was James I's secret half brother who was Fawkes and to whom you are related?


That was updated, just as Felix updated this thread.  Actually, I just wanted to see if you remembered my thread. Congratulations, you are a lucky winner!


Will Scarlet said:


> Eh?


I meant I was glad Felix enjoyed that book he referred to that was written about Guy Fawkes, even though it appears to be a mixture of fact and fiction. Guy Fawkes (novel) - Wikipedia In it, Fawkes is supposed to have married a Viviana Radcliffe. To really entertain you, I should have said that this "marriage" made me related to Daniel Radcliffe (Harry Potter), a "wizard" like John Dee! 


Will Scarlet said:


> I'm sure if most people go back into their family trees far enough they will find that they are related to famous and infamous people and the further back they go the relationships increase exponentially until everyone is related to everyone else.


 "Most people" can't get past their own grandparents in their family histories (that's why they copy Internet family trees without checking sources),  and one would have to go back thousands of years to be "related to everyone else". In other words, it is "speculation" (there's that word again), but with nothing concrete to go on, as far as connecting specific ancestors to oneself, generation by generation, is concerned. Everybody can say that they are related to anybody "famous and infamous", it's the easy way out without taking risks, and not having to do the hard work of actually researching one's ancestors. I could say more about this, but it is "off topic", so I shall go back to my Dee research, which is the real reason that I am interested in his "relatives" (not my own), because I am trying to connect his associations to the families of the later Hellfire Club members, as it looked like Felix was trying to do.


Felix Noille said:


> The Hellfire Club. It began as the Order of the Knights of St Francis in 1746. The club’s motto was also “Fais ce que tu voudras” (“*Do what thou wilt*”), from Rabelais' fictional abbey at Thélème and one that would re-emerge in the 20th century as *Aleister Crowley’s* war-cry.


Crowley not only took that motto, but named his Abbey of Thelema after that fictional abbey of Rabelais'. Abbey of Thelema - Wikipedia

Rabelais, in turn, knew that "a character named "Thelemia" represents will or desire in the _Hypnerotomachia Poliphili_ of the Dominican friar Francesco Colonna. The protagonist Poliphilo has two allegorical guides, Logistica (reason) and Thelemia (will or desire). When forced to choose, he chooses fulfillment of his sexual will over logic. Colonna's work was a great influence on the Franciscan friar Francois Rabelais, who in the 16th century, used _Thélème_, the French form of the word, as the name of a fictional abbey in his novels, Gargantua and Pantagruel. The only rule of this Abbey was "_fay çe que vouldras_" ("_Fais ce que tu veux_", or, "Do what thou wilt")." Thelema - Wikipedia
The ancestors of Francesco Colonna apparently did what they wanted, as "According to tradition, the Colonna family is a branch of the Counts of Tusculum — by Peter (1099–1151) son of Gregory III, called Peter "de Columna" from his property the Columna Castle in Colonna, in the Alban Hill. Further back, they trace their lineage past the Counts of Tusculum via Lombard and Italo-Roman nobles, merchants, and clergy through the Early Middle Ages — ultimately claiming origins from the Julio-Claudian dynasty and the gens Julia". Think of Caligula and Nero doing what they wilt! Colonna family - Wikipedia

Next, chronologically, after the time of Rabelais, the spirit Madimi, conjured up by Dee and Kelley, issued this command to them, "Behold you are become free. Do that which pleases you. Do even as you list". It was after this that Madimi told them to swap wives. You can "Look inside" to see that quote on page X of the Preface to the 2019 edition from- Amazon.com: The Secret History of the Hell-Fire Clubs: From Rabelais and John Dee to Anton LaVey and Timothy Leary: 9781591433484: Ashe, Geoffrey: Books

Then in the 18th century we have this motto used by the The Hellfire Club.

20th century - Used by Aleister Crowley in his teachings from "The Book of the Law".


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## Fawkes (Apr 16, 2022)

"Do what thou wilt" in the Sixties, sex, drugs, devil worship accusations, and rock & roll, engineered by the Tavistock Institute to brainwash youth? What started all of this was "The British Invasion", perhaps a continuation of the Welsh Dr. John Dee's promulgation of "The British Empire", only instead of occurring during the reign of Queen Elizabeth I, this occurred under a Queen Elizabeth II? John Lennon, founder of The Beatles, was Welsh on his mother's side, and Brian Jones, founder of The Rolling Stones, was Welsh from both of his parents. Below, the picture of Aleister Crowley (second from upper left) on the album cover of "Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Clubs Band" from The Beatles -



_The following images show The Rolling Stones’ single “Sympathy For The Devil” & their LP "Their Satanic Majesties Request ". With their devilish song references and alleged Hellfire Club style partying, The Rolling Stones were favorites of the "Black Nobility". Among the Black Nobility are the COLONNA family, mentioned in the previous posting as the creators of 16th century "Thelemia" and "Do what thou wilt" themes.




_


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## Will Scarlet (Apr 16, 2022)

Fawkes said:


> What started all of this was "The British Invasion"



Only an American would say that.

There were many other factors:

"Popular music of the United States in the 1960s became innately tied up into causes, opposing certain ideas, influenced by the sexual revolution, feminism, Black Power and environmentalism. This trend took place in a tumultuous period of massive public, unrest in the United States which consisted of the Cold War, Vietnam War, and Civil Rights Movement." Wikipedia

'Originating in the mid-1960s among British *and American* musicians, the sound of psychedelic rock invokes three core effects of LSD: depersonalization, dechronicization, and dynamization, all of which detach the user from reality...

...The first mention of LSD on a rock record was the Gamblers' [*WS*: American] 1960 surf instrumental "LSD 25"' Wikipedia

Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin, James Brown, Hendrix etc... *were not 'British Invaders'.*


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## Fawkes (Apr 16, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> Only an American would say that.


Naturally, we were the country being "invaded". You obviously weren't there to witness it. The Beatles were even decorated by the Queen (not an American) for doing it, by being admitted to the "Order of the BRITISH EMPIRE". Too bad Dr. Dee couldn't present their medals to them, given by another British monarch named "Elizabeth"! 

"Impact on the United States music​The British Invasion had a profound impact on popular music, internationalising the production of rock and roll, establishing the British popular music industry as a viable centre of musical creativity, and opening the door for subsequent British performers to achieve international success. In America, the Invasion arguably spelled the end of the popularity of instrumental surf music, pre-Motown vocal girl groups, the folk revival (which adapted by evolving into folk rock), teenage tragedy songs, Nashville country music (which also faced its own crisis with the deaths of some of its biggest stars at the same time), and temporarily, the teen idols that had dominated the United States charts in the late 1950s and early 1960s. It dented the careers of established R&B acts like Chubby Checker and temporarily derailed the chart success of certain surviving rock and roll acts, including Ricky Nelson, Fats Domino, the Everly Brothers, and Elvis Presley (who nevertheless racked up thirty Hot 100 entries from 1964 through 1967). It prompted many existing garage rock bands to adopt a sound with a British Invasion inflection and inspired many other groups to form, creating a scene from which many major US acts of the next decade would emerge. The British Invasion also played a major part in the rise of a distinct genre of rock music and cemented the primacy of the rock group, based around guitars and drums and producing their own material as singer-songwriters." British Invasion - Wikipedia



Will Scarlet said:


> The first mention of LSD on a rock record was the Gamblers' [*WS*: American] 1960 surf instrumental "LSD 25"


HAHA, that really shook up the world, didn't it? As you mentioned, it was an INSTRUMENTAL (no lyrics), by a "surf band", and "The Gamblers" broke up the very next year! The "LSD" song that caused controversy, merely from creating those initials from a title, was The Beatles "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds", and then interpreting the fantastical imagery of the lyrics as an LSD experience. By the way, American Jimi Hendrix actually moved to England, where he started to make it big, and thus had to "reinvade" America.


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## mutley7 (Apr 16, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> The documented sources put him in Prague at the time of his death around 1597-98, for which there are 2 different versions, neither of which include resurrection. Again, where is the evidence to show that the illustration from the 1841 'Historical Romance' above isn't also fictional?
> 
> Felix presented that illustration to 'illustrate' how myths and legends continued to be attached to Dee and Kelley long after their deaths and to therefore cast doubt upon the 'official' versions of their lives and adventures. He was (and still is) particularly bothered by the general accreditation to Dee of the Spanish Armada's defeat by the storm in the Channel whilst he was still abroad in Europe. This accreditation is also implied in Shakespeare's 'The Tempest'. This theme of defending the British Isles by the conjuring of storms has a tradition that goes back many centuries beyond even Dee's time.


This is interesting, lauralcanyonetc rinsenrepeat not so, not here anyhows!

Hellfire clubs, follies and associated activities of such - repetition of such "characters" over the given time frames....

Nothing new under the sun - except "their" names?....


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## Fawkes (Apr 16, 2022)

John Lennon, Liverpool, Devil Worship (mentions, in passing, thread topics such as wizards, Prague, tunnels, obsidian mirror, etc.)

Did John Lennon Sell his Soul? by Tom Slemen

https://www.slemen.com/slemmy.html


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## Will Scarlet (Apr 17, 2022)

Fawkes said:


> Naturally, we were the country being "invaded". You obviously weren't there to witness it. The Beatles were even decorated by the Queen (not an American) for doing it, by being admitted to the "Order of the BRITISH EMPIRE". Too bad Dr. Dee couldn't present their medals to them, given by another British monarch named "Elizabeth"!
> 
> "Impact on the United States music​The British Invasion had a profound impact on popular music, internationalising the production of rock and roll, establishing the British popular music industry as a viable centre of musical creativity, and opening the door for subsequent British performers to achieve international success. In America, the Invasion arguably spelled the end of the popularity of instrumental surf music, pre-Motown vocal girl groups, the folk revival (which adapted by evolving into folk rock), teenage tragedy songs, Nashville country music (which also faced its own crisis with the deaths of some of its biggest stars at the same time), and temporarily, the teen idols that had dominated the United States charts in the late 1950s and early 1960s. It dented the careers of established R&B acts like Chubby Checker and temporarily derailed the chart success of certain surviving rock and roll acts, including Ricky Nelson, Fats Domino, the Everly Brothers, and Elvis Presley (who nevertheless racked up thirty Hot 100 entries from 1964 through 1967). It prompted many existing garage rock bands to adopt a sound with a British Invasion inflection and inspired many other groups to form, creating a scene from which many major US acts of the next decade would emerge. The British Invasion also played a major part in the rise of a distinct genre of rock music and cemented the primacy of the rock group, based around guitars and drums and producing their own material as singer-songwriters." British Invasion - Wikipedia
> 
> ...




I think it's obvious from this that we can agree to disagree about everything and I will therefore be ignoring you in future. So, you can have the last word or, no doubt words, to your heart's content without fear of further invasion by this Brit into your... obsessions.


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## Fawkes (Apr 17, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> I think it's obvious from this that we can agree to disagree about everything and I will therefore be ignoring you in future. So, you can have the last word or, no doubt words, to your heart's content without fear of further invasion by this Brit into your... obsessions.


Happy Easter, Will, no hard feelings, I'm off to celebrate with my family.


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## Fawkes (Apr 19, 2022)

Felix Noille said:


> For some reason it was a widely held belief that John Dee was responsible for conjuring the *tempest* that scuppered the Armada. However, if we believe the previous narrative which states that Dee wasn’t even in the country at the time, it would seem unlikely.


Perhaps what Dee actually did was depute Sir Francis Drake to conjure the tempest instead, while Dee himself was on the Continent. Drake and Dee apparently knew each other -  

"Dr. Dee was a most important member in a secret group called the School of Night that included Sir Francis Drake, Sir Walter Raleigh, Christopher Marlowe, Thomas Hariot, George Chapman, and the Earl of Northumberland. They were also considered Dragon-Men. They were the writers, the scientists, and the explorers who drove England to join the race for the New World." Rosicrucian America

"Weather Witches
In Elizabethan England, Sir Francis Drake was said to have sold his soul to the Devil in exchange for success as skilled seaman. He later earned victory in 1588 against the Spanish Armada heading towards England, with great luck on his side.

A terrible storm swept through the English Channel, which hampered Spanish warships. It is said that the Drake had the help of the Devil and witches in the sea battle, who called the storm to aid the English fleet. Folklore tells how the spirits of these witches still haunt the coast around Devonport, at a spot known as Devil's Point." Storm Callers: The Art of Weather Magic


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## Fawkes (Apr 20, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> The documented sources put him in Prague at the time of his death around 1597-98, for which there are 2 different versions, neither of which include resurrection. Again, where is the evidence to show that the illustration from the 1841 'Historical Romance' above isn't also fictional?


Obviously, Dee had already used the "elixir" he had to revive Fawkes with to previously revive Kelley, and probably took a swig of it for himself, too!


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## Moorman (Aug 31, 2022)

Will Scarlet said:


> *That's very English - 'Moor', In Spanish it's Moro, as in Morocco, Armorica, but as I explained, it means 'foreign',* like the Scottish 'sassenach' means outlander, or foreigner. Therefore, to claim that something in America was built by Moors (or Moros - especially in South America,) is to say that it was built by foreigners or 'people other than us'.


From "An English Etymologicial Dictionary".  Two etymological word origins.  Moor and Black-Moor.

_1.MOOR [More, F. of More, Ital. Mohr, Teut..] a Native of Mauritania in Africa, a Black-moor.


2.BLACKMOOR, a Negro._


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