# The War on Alcohol



## Sasyexa (Oct 2, 2021)

Interesting article concerning the history of alcohol in Russia: Война 1858-1860 годов, о которой молчат учебники
Translation below:​_Another refutation of the myth of Russian drunkenness - the most powerful anti-alcohol riots, which no other country in the world knew. Thus, in 1858-1859 anti-alcohol rebellion covered 32 provinces (which included Saratov), more than 2,000 settlements and villages rose against the forcible drunkening of the nation._

People destroyed drinking establishments, breweries and wineries, refused free vodka. The people demanded that "the taverns be closed and that they not be seduced". The tsarist government dealt with the rebels in the cruelest manner. The "drinking cases" landed 111 thousand peasants in prisons, about 800 were brutally beaten with sticks and exiled to Siberia...

This material will be useful to monarchists and other people, nodding to the good pre-revolutionary "czars and dukes".






*"For sobriety - to ... prison"*​
The history textbooks are silent about this war, even though it was a real war - with shots fired, dead and prisoners of war, with the victors and the defeated, with the trial of the defeated and the celebration of the victors who won and received the contribution (compensation for damages connected with the war). Battles of that war, unknown to schoolchildren, were fought in 12 provinces of the Russian Empire (from Kovno in the West to Saratov in the East) in 1858 - 1860.

This war is more commonly referred to by historians as "teetotaler riots", because the peasants refused to buy wine and vodka and the entire village vowed not to drink. Why did they do this? Because they did not want their health to be taken advantage of by the sellers, those 146 people into whose pockets the money from the sale of alcohol poured from all over Russia. Vodka was literally forced on the people: if someone did not want to drink it, he still had to pay for it... There was a practice in our country in those years: every man was assigned to a certain tavern, and if he did not drink his "norm" and the amount of alcohol sold was not enough, the sellers collected the money from the courtyards of the districts under the jurisdiction of the tavern. Those who did not want to or could not pay, were whipped for the edification of others.

The wine merchants began to raise their prices and by 1858 a bucket of spirits was selling for ten rubles instead of three. Finally, the peasants were fed up with the parasites and they started boycotting the wine merchants.




_*Pre-revolutionary teetotaler poster*_​
The peasants turned their backs on the tavern not so much out of greed as out of principle: the hard-working, industrious owners saw their fellow villagers joining the ranks of bitter drunks who could do nothing but drink. Wives and children suffered, and to stop the spread of drunkenness among the villagers, at community meetings they all decided: no one drinks in our village.

What was left for the wine merchants to do? They lowered the price. The working people did not respond to the "kindness". In order to put down teetotaler sentiments, the tavernkeepers announced that they were giving away free vodka. And people did not bite, responding with a firm "We don't drink!". For example, in Balashovsky district of Saratov Province in December 1858, 4752 people refused to drink alcohol. All taverns in Balashov were guarded by the people to monitor that no one bought wine, who violated the vow by verdict of the people's court were fined or subjected to corporal punishment. The farmers were also joined by the townspeople: workers, bureaucrats, and the nobility. The priests supported sobriety and blessed their parishioners for quitting drunkenness. This already seriously frightened the wine and potion merchants, and they complained to the government.

In March 1858 the Ministers of Finance, Internal Affairs and State Property issued instructions to their departments. The essence of these decrees was to prohibit... sobriety!!! Local authorities were ordered not to allow the organization of sobriety societies and to destroy already existing sentiments of abstaining from wine, and not to allow them in the future.



> _See also: __Vladimir Zhdanov 100 years ago - statements of the teetotaler Chelyshov_



It was then, in response to the ban on sobriety, that a wave of pogroms swept across Russia. Beginning in May 1859 in the west of the country, in June the revolt reached the banks of the Volga. Peasants smashed up drinking establishments in Balashovsky, Atkarsky, Khvalynsky, Saratovsky and many other counties. The pogroms were especially widespread in Volsk. On July 24, 1859, a crowd of three thousand broke the wine displays at the fair there. Quartermaster and police officers, mobilizing disabled teams and soldiers of the 17th Artillery Brigade, tried in vain to pacify the rioters. The rioters disarmed the police and soldiers and let the prisoners out of jail. Only a few days later, troops arriving from Saratov restored order by arresting 27 people (in total, 132 people in Volsky and Khvalynsky districts were thrown into prison). All of them were condemned by the commission of inquiry based only on the testimonies of the tavern-owners, who blamed the defendants for the theft of wine (the rioters did not drink the wine, but poured it on the ground), without supporting their charges with evidence. Historians point out that not a single case of theft was ever documented; the money was stolen by the employees of the taverns themselves, who blamed the rioters for the theft.




*Pre-revolutionary teetotaler poster*​
From the 24th of July till the 26th of July in Volsky district 37 drinking houses were wrecked and the peasants had to pay big fines for each of them in order to restore the taverns. In the documents of the investigation commission there remained the names of condemned sobriety fighters: L. Maslov and S. Khlamov (peasants of Sosnovka village), M. Kostunin (Tersa village), P. Vertegov, A. Volodin, M. Volodin, V. Sukhov (Donguz village). It was ordered "to deprive soldiers, who took part in teetotalers' movement, of all civil rights, and the lower ranks - of medals and stripes for faithful service, who had such, to punish with whips through 100 persons, 5 times for each and to exile them to hard labor in factories for 4 years".

A total of 11 thousand people were sent to prison and hard labor in Russia. Many were killed by bullets: the riot was subdued by the troops, who received an order to shoot at the rebels. All over the country there were reprisals against those who dared to protest against the drunkening of the people. The judges were furious: they were told not just to punish the rioters, but to smite them, set an example to others so they would not "strive for sobriety without official permission". The authorities understood that it is possible to subdue them by force, but sitting on bayonets for a long time is uncomfortable.

It was necessary to consolidate success. How could they do this? The government, like the characters in a popular movie comedy, decided: "Whoever gets in our way, helps us". The buy-back system of wine sales was canceled and replaced by an excise tax. Now anyone who wanted to produce and sell wine, could pay a tax to the treasury, and profit from getting their fellow citizens drunk. In many villages there were traitors who, feeling the support of the bayonets behind them, continued the war against sobriety by other "peaceful" methods.

Big bastards rely in their abominations on small, but numerous bastards. Allen Dulles, director of the CIA, declaring in 1945 the "cold war" against the USSR and saying that we (i.e. the USA) would conquer the Russians without a single shot being fired, by finding traitors among them and destroying them from within, didn't invent anything: the tactic of recruiting traitors has been known since ancient times, and it is very difficult to defend against waging war this way. But it was necessary to find one by all means, otherwise the loss would be final. The teetotalers had an almost insoluble problem to solve: how to overcome the resistance of the authorities, who supported not sobriety, the basis of state power, but the tavernkeepers, who filled the state treasury with money but led the country to ruin.

_Chapter from the book "Do You Respect Me?" by Vladimir Ilyich Vardugin, a Saratov local historian and member of the Russian Writers' Union_.



> _See also video: __On the Sober Tradition of the Slavs_


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## UgricMongol (Oct 2, 2021)

Reminds me of the Opium enforced on China by, of course, our favourite Brits. Another instance of subjugating a people by making it addicted.  The kind of people and the timing are interesting, though. 19th century *really* puzzles me.


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## enthusiast (Oct 2, 2021)

Sasyexa said:


> Allen Dulles, director of the CIA, declaring in 1945 the "cold war" against the USSR and saying that we (i.e. the USA) would conquer the Russians without a single shot being fired, by finding traitors among them and destroying them from within, didn't invent anything: the tactic of recruiting traitors has been known since ancient times, and it is very difficult to defend against waging war this way.


«It was first published as a distinct "plan" and ascribed to Allen Dulles in a 1993 book by John (Snychov), Metropolitan of St. Petersburg and Ladoga. The literary origins of the plan were traced in the early 2000s.»


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## Sasyexa (Oct 2, 2021)

In Lithuanian schools they told about a famous priest and a writer *Motiejus Kazimieras Valančius.*




They also briefly mentioned that he organized a "sobriety movement", which became quite popular, but that's it. Even wikipedia is more generous in this regard:


> By the initiative of Bishop Valančius in 1858 in Jurbarkas a temperance society was founded at the church. Soon the temperance movement covered most of the Kovno province and began to spread to the Vilna and Grodno provinces. In Lithuania the sobriety societies included about one million people. Soberness associations were organized in churches: men swore on the altar or on the icon of the Virgin Mary not to drink alcoholic drinks and made sure that other parishioners did not do it (violators were punished by locking them in the bell tower, whipping them, etc.); soberness books were kept in churches with lists of sober people. Soberness associations were formed without the permission of the authorities and bypassing the prohibition to give any oaths in addition to the oath to the tsar, caused considerable damage to the distillery industry (in the Kovno province, 87 distilleries were closed in 1859) and to the treasury income (in Lithuanian provinces, the wages paid to excise collectors in 1860 exceeded excise taxes on the sale of alcoholic drinks), caused justified fear of the authorities as a form of civil self-organization.



Lithuanian wiki:


> Motiejus Valančius is considered to be the founder and promoter of the sobriety movement in Lithuania. The movement began in 1858, when he visited Kupiškis and urged people to sign up for the sobriety fraternity, and he himself signed up more than a hundred people who pledged not to drink.
> 
> The aim of the sobriety societies was to wean the peasants off vodka. Sobriety was not understood as total abstinence - even those who had taken oaths and were blessed could drink beer, mead and wine in moderation. Drinking was a serious problem in the 19th century, as the boyars tried to sell the vodka they produced from surplus grain and potatoes in any way they could, and they drunkened their peasants. Owners of taverns also made money from drunkenness. Drinking was widespread and had a devastating effect on the agriculture. Therefore, the sobriety promoted by Valančius was greeted with great joy by the peasants.
> 
> ...



These kinds of movements weren't exclusive to the Russian Empire.


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## enthusiast (Oct 2, 2021)

Sasyexa said:


> In Lithuanian schools they told about a famous priest and a writer *Motiejus Kazimieras Valančius.*


«Gathering material for the book, Pryzhov traveled extensively, went to villages and towns of Moscow, Tver, Vladimir provinces. "The history of the taverns in Russia in connection with the history of the Russian people" was published by M. О. Wolf in 1868, but the edition was severely censored. Strictly speaking, it represented only the first volume of the study, and the second and third volumes were burnt by Pryzhov, because the work quite clearly traced the tendency of the birth of all popular revolts in the cabaka environment».
Ivan Pryzhov. «History of taverns in Russia in connection with the history of the Russian people»

P.S. He has other interesting books as well.


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## matematik (Oct 3, 2021)

UgricMongol said:


> our favourite Brits.



What's that supposed to mean? Are the Russians any better historically?


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## Sasyexa (Oct 3, 2021)

matematik said:


> What's that supposed to mean? Are the Russians any better historically?


Don't care who's better or not. This thread is for discussion of abstinence and counter-abstinence movements.


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## Shabda Preceptor (Oct 3, 2021)

Sasyexa said:


> Don't care who's better or not. This thread is for discussion of abstinence and counter-abstinence movements.


Does the idea that beer may have been responsible (at least theoretically by some) for the start of human agriculture and as a thing that may have helped society in general to develop further than just the  basic tribal sorts that are thought to have been among the earliest? I mention it because I've seen it mentioned over the last few years in various articles, and while no one can claim it to be fact or verifiable as one, it seems possible at the very least, even if the original fermentation was purely accidental. Humans learned to do it purposefully for one reason or another which likely came before abstinence (or counter-abstinence) would have been seen as desirable or alcoholism a problem. If nothing else it seems to hold a place before the idea of abstinence came to exist, and likely before drunkeness was seen as desirable to anyone also.

In the Western world (in Europe) priests and monks seem to have been responsible for some of the brewing, or are at least claimed to have been involved, though that would hardly be the earliest appearance of alcohol. But the religious point of view might play a role in both the creating of alcohol as well as the abstinence of it, at least by some groups.

It don't know a lot about the Russians and alcohol or its abstinence movements, but it is said that they had much to do with other forms of intoxication that came to affect later civilization (the Siberian Evenki and their psychedelic mushroom usage that seems to have much to do with the more modern Christmas celebrations, though without any fungi involved) so why not alcohol too? It is certainly believable with humans to have developed an interest in such things, and where there is an interest, there will also inevitably be a counter interest. An interesting thread! I doubt I was entirely on the specific topic and I apologize, I'll restrain myself going forward but find it interesting enough to do the reading.

I don't care who is better or worse, as far as that goes, I am more interested in the various ways that we all have ideas and opinions, and that someone else always opposes those, no matter what topic it might be. By all means continue the discussion and I'll stop rambling so much.

Btw, now having read the context, I understand it a bit better. I could never agree with being forced to buy or drink vodka or any other alcohol. No wonder they revolted with teetotalling. I would too as a form of revolt. Completely understandable.


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## dreamtime (Oct 3, 2021)

Sasyexa said:


> This material will be useful to monarchists and other people, nodding to the good pre-revolutionary "czars and dukes".



I think the Romanovs were already controlled. Since the Time of Troubles the government was fighting against the people.


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## Sasyexa (Oct 3, 2021)

Shabda Preceptor said:


> Does the idea that beer may have been responsible (at least theoretically by some) for the start of human agriculture and as a thing that may have helped society in general to develop further than just the  basic tribal sorts that are thought to have been among the earliest? I mention it because I've seen it mentioned over the last few years in various articles, and while no one can claim it to be fact or verifiable as one, it seems possible at the very least, even if the original fermentation was purely accidental. Humans learned to do it purposefully for one reason or another which likely came before abstinence (or counter-abstinence) would have been seen as desirable or alcoholism a problem. If nothing else it seems to hold a place before the idea of abstinence came to exist, and likely before drunkeness was seen as desirable to anyone also.
> 
> In the Western world (in Europe) priests and monks seem to have been responsible for some of the brewing, or are at least claimed to have been involved, though that would hardly be the earliest appearance of alcohol. But the religious point of view might play a role in both the creating of alcohol as well as the abstinence of it, at least by some groups.
> 
> ...


You know how they say: "the dose makes the poison". Even if the substance isn't necessarily bad, it's the abuse that makes it a problem. I've heard that in places where water was dirty, people preferred to brew beer, because it was cleaner.


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## enthusiast (Oct 3, 2021)

Sasyexa said:


> "the dose makes the poison"





dreamtime said:


> Since the Time of Troubles the government was fighting against the people.


Totally agree.
I am a supporter of the simple idea that by using alcohol the government on the one hand suppresses any useful undertakings by citizens and on the other hand does not lead the system to total collapse. That's why the source Sasyexa and Pryzhov's words about riots are exactly right. Here's my opinion.
The article could be supplemented with a graph of alcohol consumption per capita over the past 150 years (excluding artisanal production).


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## Mick Harper (Oct 3, 2021)

> Does the idea that beer may have been responsible (at least theoretically by some) for the start of human agriculture and as a thing that may have helped society in general to develop further than just the basic tribal sorts that are thought to have been among the earliest?


In _The Megalithic Empire _we persuasively claim that agriculture has its origins in the need to, or at any rate the advantage of, feeding reindeer during the winter rather than just having to cull them for lack of food during the transhumance journeyings of the Sami. Beer was a by-product of having all this surplus but inedible (to humans) grass though perhaps less important than another by-product, bread.


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## alltheleaves (Oct 5, 2021)

Prohibition in the US circa 1920 to early 1930s. (dates approximate)

Need to find out who funded the Women’s Christian Temperance Union and the National Prohibition Party circa 1870.

Prohibition started winding down after reports in 1929 by the Association Against the Prohibition Amendment (led by Pierre DuPont) and the Liquor Study Commission (John D. Rockefeller). When Rockefeller and DuPont Took On Prohibition



Was the 1800s temperance movement a con to give busybody women something to do while eventually creating a lucrative black market for alcohol? 

Prohibition made a lot of people rich, including the Kennedys and the Bronfmans.


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## Mick Harper (Oct 5, 2021)

This is weird, alltheleaves. Drunkenness has been a scourge in all societies, all societies develop coping measures. Temperance movements are  pretty common, why single out the Yanks and the nineteenth century? As for selecting out bored housewives from the 1870's and Irish millionaires of the 1920's as being behind it all... come on, there must be better conspiracy theories. The Bronfmans were Canadian alcohol manufacturers who had suddenly been awarded the biggest booze market in the world on their doorstep. Blimey, even my cat would have made money hand over fist in those circumstances. Not that she would have given me any, she's quite mean-natured that way. But I love her.


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## alltheleaves (Oct 5, 2021)

Thanks for the links.

...was just speculating off the cuff.

And adding to the conversation, which is about prohibition, since US wasn't mentioned yet.

This is something dog people do.


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## Referent (Oct 8, 2021)

alltheleaves said:


> Prohibition in the US circa 1920 to early 1930s. (dates approximate)
> ...
> Prohibition started winding down after reports in 1929 by the Association Against the Prohibition Amendment (led by Pierre DuPont) and the Liquor Study Commission (John D. Rockefeller). When Rockefeller and DuPont Took On Prohibition



Regarding America's Prohibition (1920-1933), Owen Benjamin had the following off the cuff remarks to say recently (at about 26:08):



> I have some theories about Prohibition.  I think Prohibition was to solidify the oil monopoly.
> 
> So, Rockefeller wants to refine oil.  And Henry Ford--the Model T used to run on alcohol.  A lot of people don't realize this, because--so, rural folks like myself could have a still and make their own gasoline.
> 
> ...



Personally, I haven't checked for historical documents on this, but the perspective seemed topical (did Rockefeller both start and end Prohibition in the USA?).


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## luddite (Oct 9, 2021)

> The Model T could originally run on ethanol, gasoline, or kerosene, or a combination of the first two.


Source: Assembling Our Transportation Future: How could policies in the early 20th century have shaped more sustainable transportation systems?.


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## alltheleaves (Oct 10, 2021)

Referent said:


> Regarding America's Prohibition (1920-1933), (did Rockefeller both start and end Prohibition in the USA?).


That would make him the alpha and omega


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## JWW427 (Oct 14, 2021)

Since at least ancient Sumerian times, alcohol or beer was brewed for salves to eat with bread. Its part of our control system, and yet the
elite PTB get drunk all the time. (?)
Debt slavery and booze go hand in hand. Violence and hatred are exacerbated. Booze helps keep the slaves from rising up with clear heads against their rulers.
Ive read that in the later Atlantis period, the regressive Sons of Belial began wine production. I think this is an old tactic.

Heres an older post of mine describing "Evil Spirit" spirits.
Everything is a lie...


One of my Twitter memes....


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## Akanah (Oct 27, 2021)

This is an interesting topic. What about coffee ? I start drinking coffee 2 years ago and now I think I end with this again because I lost my feeling of life-energy. I had not previously been aware of the major role played by the coffee-consum. In one week of absent from coffee I got a little bit of the feeling of life-energy back. This is grazy because it does means most people who drink coffee have no idea about the feeling of normal life-energy. So I think Coffee could have a similar history as alcohol as like a civilization drug for controlling the masses.


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## Sasyexa (Oct 27, 2021)

Akanah said:


> This is an interesting topic. What about coffee ? I start drinking coffee 2 years ago and now I think I end with this again because I lost my feeling of life-energy. I had not previously been aware of the major role played by the coffee-consum. In one week of absent from coffee I got a little bit of the feeling of life-energy back. This is grazy because it does means most people who drink coffee have no idea about the feeling of normal life-energy. So I think Coffee could have a similar history as alcohol as like a civilization drug for controlling the masses.



This guy claims that coffee is bad for the brain:


_View: https://youtu.be/CTq6edDa7cI_
​
Interesting article (in Russian) about bans on coffee: Почему в Османской империи за посещение кофейни могли казнить


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## Akanah (Oct 28, 2021)

Sasyexa said:


> This guy claims that coffee is bad for the brain:
> 
> 
> _View: https://youtu.be/CTq6edDa7cI_
> ​



This guy also explains the thinking of much people during the corona-pandemic.


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## Columbo (Oct 28, 2021)

First thing that popped into my mind is vodka in Russia, opium in China, crack cocaine in south central Los Angeles. What’s even easier than divide-and-conquer? _Addicted-and-Conquer_


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## luddite (Oct 29, 2021)

Akanah said:


> This is grazy because it does means most people who drink coffee have no idea about the feeling of normal life-energy.


Maybe research the topic and create a new thread. I have a coffee a day and still feel my life energy but that's just me.


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## Akanah (Oct 29, 2021)

luddite said:


> Maybe research the topic and create a new thread. I have a coffee a day and still feel my life energy but that's just me.


Why a new thread ? It fits well with this thread. Can I ask you how you feel your life-energy ? Can you describe it ?
For me the consum of coffee had triggered to much adrenalin and this typical fight or flight mode as told in the video above.


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## Shabda Preceptor (Oct 29, 2021)

luddite said:


> Maybe research the topic and create a new thread. I have a coffee a day and still feel my life energy but that's just me.


I have coffee every single morning, though just a single cup. It awakens me more quickly than doing without, but I often am active before I've a chance to have coffee so I cannot say that I require it %100 either, I just prefer to have it rather than not.



Akanah said:


> Why a new thread ? It fits well with this thread. Can I ask you how you feel your life-energy ? Can you describe it ?
> For me the consum of coffee had triggered to much adrenalin and this typical fight or flight mode as told in the video above.


I've no clue how anyone defines "life energy," but I'm alive as can be so I have to assume that mine is unaffected. I have a medical condition that causes me to often have an excess of adrenaline just as a baseline for daily activity, so coffee does nothing out of the ordinary in that respect to me. Of course my adrenaline doesn't do a thing to awaken me in the morning either. I never have "fight or flight," though I do have to control the urge to fight in general, though for the most part I don't mean in the physical sense. I don't walk around picking fights with anyone, but I enjoy confrontation and often enjoy debating things even if I don't actually "have a dog in the race" so to speak.

If someone were firing a gun at me I might fly as far out of the way as possible, but I also might just as easily shoot back, depending on the circumstances. If there were innocents being endangered, I'd seek to eliminate the threat, though I wouldn't necessarily prevent the individual from facing charges and legal actions over their actions. I mean eliminate the threat as far as making it impossible for them to continue shooting, supposing that were the case, and also supposing that they hadn't already killed another. If they had then my remedy would tend toward being the permanent sort out of necessity. Just my two cents.

Some might have a worse reaction to the consumption of coffee which is understandable, so each must decide for themselves if drinking it is worthwhile or not, but the same would likely be the case for tea as much of it contains caffeine also. Caffeine is like most other things, not necessarily good for everyone.  I'm aware that often a drunk person will drink coffee in an attempt to sober up, but I've personally found it to be %100 ineffectual for that purpose. At best it is just the water content that helps with drunkenness as the brain requires water to process and work through the alcohol. The consumption of water is also the best way to avoid a hangover when one is imbibing alcohol.


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## Akanah (Oct 30, 2021)

Shabda Preceptor said:


> I have coffee every single morning, though just a single cup. It awakens me more quickly than doing without, but I often am active before I've a chance to have coffee so I cannot say that I require it %100 either, I just prefer to have it rather than not.
> 
> 
> I've no clue how anyone defines "life energy," but I'm alive as can be so I have to assume that mine is unaffected. I have a medical condition that causes me to often have an excess of adrenaline just as a baseline for daily activity, so coffee does nothing out of the ordinary in that respect to me. Of course my adrenaline doesn't do a thing to awaken me in the morning either. I never have "fight or flight," though I do have to control the urge to fight in general, though for the most part I don't mean in the physical sense. I don't walk around picking fights with anyone, but I enjoy confrontation and often enjoy debating things even if I don't actually "have a dog in the race" so to speak.
> ...


The feeling of life-energy I had as a little children and then later because of my kundalini-awakening in 2006 (without drugs) again. It´s a whole body feeling of love and deep relaxation for me. This love feels warm and of course you are quickly awake after getting up or need little sleep. You could compare it to being constantly in love all over your body and wanting to embrace the whole world. It is not to compare with eating chocolate or drink coffee or alcohol. During my Kundalini-Awakening this life-energy was so strong that i had something like permanent orgasms in the whole body. I also had during my Kundalini-Awakening skills like telephaty or seeing energies but if you are afraid of this you do not experience it very strongly.

I am also a person who likes to discuss and intervene in disputes, but when there is a lot of life energy, I prefer to remain silent and not interfere.


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## luddite (Oct 30, 2021)

Shabda Preceptor said:


> have coffee every single morning, though just a single cup. It awakens me more quickly than doing without, but I often am active before I've a chance to have coffee so I cannot say that I require it %100 either, I just prefer to have it rather than not.


That describes me pretty accurately also. 


Akanah said:


> Can I ask you how you feel your life-energy ? Can you describe it ?
> For me the consum of coffee had triggered to much adrenalin and this typical fight or flight mode as told in the video above.


I am not dead so I feel alive. 



Akanah said:


> During my Kundalini-Awakening this life-energy was so strong that i had something like permanent orgasms in the whole body.


That sounds horrible!


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## Akanah (Oct 30, 2021)

luddite said:


> That sounds horrible!


Why ? Are you afraid of greatest Love in the universe ? When I look at most people, I have the impression that they are too used to feeling sorrow and pain instead of love. In another spiritual forums here are people which also felt the same as me because of Kundalini and did not find it terrible.

Just because a person says he/she is alive it does not mean they feel alive. There are people who live and cannot feel any emotions at all because they are numb.


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## luddite (Oct 30, 2021)

Akanah said:


> Why ? Are you afraid of greatest Love in the universe ? When I look at most people, I have the impression that they are too used to feeling sorrow and pain instead of love. In another spiritual forums here are people which also felt the same as me because of Kundalini and did not find it terrible.
> 
> Just because a person says he/she is alive it does not mean they feel alive. There are people who live and cannot feel any emotions at all because they are numb.


Isn't a kundalini when a spirit possesses you via attaching to your energy systems as a parasite and making you feel good to mask its bad intent and effect?


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## Shabda Preceptor (Oct 30, 2021)

Akanah said:


> Why ? Are you afraid of greatest Love in the universe ? When I look at most people, I have the impression that they are too used to feeling sorrow and pain instead of love. In another spiritual forums here are people which also felt the same as me because of Kundalini and did not find it terrible.


Is it actually the greatest love in the universe? I ask because I'm skeptical that that is true but I also say that completely without ever having had any sort of Kundalini experience. I've spoken with many that have, and it seems to have been a good thing for them, but in my own experience it would serve no purpose because I am able to go beyond the scope of that. That isn't meant to sound great or anything because it took decades of work and was no easy task, so I am no great spiritual this or that or anything else, but anyone certainly can achieve much greater states of being than they might realize even exist. And there is literally no finish line, so there is no end to the story.

Anyhow, as I was saying about this sense of love you experienced. I don't mean to imply that it was worthless or anything like that at all, I only question how you know that it was so universally top notch? The reason being that you might not be able to know that unless you are first able to perceive beyond that state, whereupon you might find an even greater state of love.

Now about the permanent orgasms throughout the body, I have heard a similar thing described though without the permanent part. It is also notable that Kundalini is usually described as energy going up and sometimes back down (or both continually) the spine, thus activating the third eye (which is actually 3 glands interacting, the pineal, pituitary and hypothalamus) which bring a greater level to perceptions. One old method is spoken about sometimes regarding sex, but for the purpose of enlightenment or the experiences associated with it, and that is to have sex but to never have orgasm, so as to use the energy flow to cause one to leave the body and transcend the physical perceptions/existence for lack of a better way to describe it. It is said to be much the same but still is described as different than the kundalini. I personally have never bothered to seek that out, but I can relate to what luddite said about permanent orgasm being not necessarily desirable. I mean I enjoy my relations in that regard, but would have no use for experiencing it always. That would rather ruin it for me and make it boring. I'd rather enjoy sex than be bored by it, even at my age. I guess each individual has their own perceptions/opinions about that, so not all would necessarily agree with any one thing.




Akanah said:


> Just because a person says he/she is alive it does not mean they feel alive. There are people who live and cannot feel any emotions at all because they are numb.


The thing I wonder about this is, are emotions really that important? I mean they obviously play a role in life, whether pleasant or otherwise, but they also make a lousy leader for any decision making or action. I understand the point you make I just question the importance of the emotional component. Most are rather unbalanced and a greater degree of actual balance is, IMO, far more desirable and useful. Just my personal opinion, but sometimes a degree of numbness isn't always such a bad thing, and it could even be said that one that is capable of living that way might indeed be more alive than one who is overcome with uncontrollable emotion. Another might be completely unaware of that however so it is not always self-evident. Just a point that occurs to me, but not necessarily relevant to what you were speaking of.


luddite said:


> Isn't a kundalini when a spirit possesses you via attaching to your energy systems as a parasite and making you feel good to mask its bad intent and effect?


I think this one depends. I'd say that it isn't necessarily that, but also that it could at certain times be that, meaning that actual Kundalini is not a possession, but also that a possession CAN sometimes be used in such a way as to cause the sensation that might be mistaken for being Kundalini by some. There are various grades of entities that can do this, some being akin to an unconscious and almost animal type to the fully and consciously aware type that act with purpose and can cause various affects. Some are more powerful than others.


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## luddite (Oct 30, 2021)

Shabda Preceptor said:


> I think this one depends. I'd say that it isn't necessarily that, but also that it could at certain times be that, meaning that actual Kundalini is not a possession, but also that a possession CAN sometimes be used in such a way as to cause the sensation that might be mistaken for being Kundalini by some. There are various grades of entities that can do this, some being akin to an unconscious and almost animal type to the fully and consciously aware type that act with purpose and can cause various affects. Some are more powerful than others.


Very good points. I myself have done decades of meditation and have had these kundalini experiences and many other ones (astral, God head etc) and the deeper I went the more demonic the other side felt. When I heard about the parasites I knew it to be true via my own experiences. 

Many years since stopping and I agree with you that it's not a requirement to acquiring deeper/more perspective!


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## Akanah (Oct 31, 2021)

luddite said:


> Isn't a kundalini when a spirit possesses you via attaching to your energy systems as a parasite and making you feel good to mask its bad intent and effect?


Where did you get this nonsense? I once read that fanatical Christians call Kundalini demonic, but they have no idea and demonize everything possible.
I had had only good experiences with Kundalini.
There were no demons in it, but I only got to know my own soul. In some books about Kundalini there are also many untruths that are spread. Often I read that Kundalini strains the nervous system, but this is a lie. True Kundalini energy is love and even soothes the nervous system.


Shabda Preceptor said:


> Is it actually the greatest love in the universe? I ask because I'm skeptical that that is true but I also say that completely without ever having had any sort of Kundalini experience. I've spoken with many that have, and it seems to have been a good thing for them, but in my own experience it would serve no purpose because I am able to go beyond the scope of that. That isn't meant to sound great or anything because it took decades of work and was no easy task, so I am no great spiritual this or that or anything else, but anyone certainly can achieve much greater states of being than they might realize even exist. And there is literally no finish line, so there is no end to the story.
> 
> Anyhow, as I was saying about this sense of love you experienced. I don't mean to imply that it was worthless or anything like that at all, I only question how you know that it was so universally top notch? The reason being that you might not be able to know that unless you are first able to perceive beyond that state, whereupon you might find an even greater state of love.
> 
> ...


I did not experience kundalini arousal through sex, as I did not have a partner at that time. A time without sex is better for kundalini experience. Today I have a partner and the feeling of orgasm through kundalini is also not comparable to sex. I have experienced Kundalini as my own life energy and soul energy. Kundalini taught me that one's own body is like a whole universe and I felt present and huge everywhere during Kundalini ascension. For me feelings are very important, especially positive feelings like love and sadness. I have the impression that most people nowadays have only negative feelings like anger, hate or fear and the negative feelings predominate in a person who does not feel his life energy properly e.g. because it is blocked by something (Alkohol or something else).


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## alltheleaves (Nov 1, 2021)

JWW427 said:


> Since at least ancient Sumerian times, alcohol or beer was brewed for salves to eat with bread. Its part of our control system, and yet the
> elite PTB get drunk all the time. (?)
> Debt slavery and booze go hand in hand. Violence and hatred are exacerbated. Booze helps keep the slaves from rising up with clear heads against their rulers.
> Ive read that in the later Atlantis period, the regressive Sons of Belial began wine production. I think this is an old tactic.
> ...


Alcohol is how the native americans were pacified.

Drunks stumbling around at the bar near the rez ("reservation") is a real life meme.

Alcohol and Native Americans - Wikipedia


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## Shabda Preceptor (Nov 1, 2021)

alltheleaves said:


> Alcohol is how the native americans were pacified.
> 
> Drunks stumbling around at the bar near the rez ("reservation") is a real life meme.
> 
> Alcohol and Native Americans - Wikipedia


That was never in dispute as far as I know. Everyone knows that this happened, however it was a secondary means of "pacification" as you put it. The first was outright slaughter, although in the warring the slaughter went both ways and neither side ever had a %100 slaughter against the other. 

It also cannot be denied that ultimately alcohol addiction had very little to do with it, the civilization of the whites from the Eastern US was inevitable, especially once the railroad made it to the West coast. After that there was no chance of ever slowing it, mush less of stopping it. From that point on, the mixing of the cultures could not be stopped. A great deal of bad happened to the Native Americans (who aren't actually natives at all) and most don't condone what the US gov't did to them.

As for the so called weakness or extreme addiction to alcohol, it is debatable at best. Some find evidence and claim comparison to other ethnic groups, but I don't necessarily trust those sources any further than I could throw them. Drunkenness has always existed in every culture on the globe. Some MIGHT have a worse time with alcohol than another group, but as of yet no one has ever shown a a good reason for this to be any worse in one group as opposed to another. The link posted claims that Natives drink earlier than any other group, but I highly doubt that because I've lived and witnessed the opposite of that claim IRL.

Kids become curious and eventually they'll find a way to get their hands on alcohol and try it. What happens after that depends on the individuals, but most tend to continue chasing it in their youth, which can certainly lead to problems later in life with alcoholism. I know because I took that road for a time, and my own genetic/racial makeup certainly didn't help, and the group I'm speaking of is probably worse off than any of the Native American groups, or at the very least is just as bad off.  I won't specify which group that is, but it wouldn't take much consideration to figure that out.

In the end, regarding alcohol abuse/addiction/ill effects I doubt that any of the NA groups are really that much worse off from every other group, because if one looks, one finds a whole lot of drunkenness and related ill effects and bad behavior that exists because of it, in every area of the world that has a large alcohol drinking culture. None of these problems belong to any single race or grouping. Humanity shares all of them.


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## runfox (Nov 4, 2021)

Akanah said:


> This is an interesting topic. What about coffee ? I start drinking coffee 2 years ago and now I think I end with this again because I lost my feeling of life-energy. I had not previously been aware of the major role played by the coffee-consum. In one week of absent from coffee I got a little bit of the feeling of life-energy back. This is grazy because it does means most people who drink coffee have no idea about the feeling of normal life-energy. So I think Coffee could have a similar history as alcohol as like a civilization drug for controlling the masses.


Now that you mention it, Coffee was outlawed in Turkey in the 1600's:
In Istanbul, Drinking Coffee in Public Was Once Punishable by Death

I am a coffee drinker, I don't notice it diminishing my life energy.


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## Blackdiamond (Nov 4, 2021)

runfox said:


> Now that you mention it, Coffee was outlawed in Turkey in the 1600's:
> In Istanbul, Drinking Coffee in Public Was Once Punishable by Death
> 
> I am a coffee drinker, I don't notice it diminishing my life energy.


try quit coffee and notice what happens within your body. Observe every other day pr so. Same goes for tobacco.
My experience is that, the one day you realize you no longer need or want it, you can also feel your life energy is greater, and minds are clearer.


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## Shabda Preceptor (Nov 5, 2021)

Blackdiamond said:


> try quit coffee and notice what happens within your body. Observe every other day pr so. Same goes for tobacco.
> My experience is that, the one day you realize you no longer need or want it, you can also feel your life energy is greater, and minds are clearer.


The problem you speak of isn't coffee at all, it's caffeine. I know some who get regular headaches if they fail to drink a certain amount of Coca Cola each and every day. I suppose that some might have the same from coffee too, but again it isn't the bean juice, it's just one of the things that happen to be in it.

As for "life energy," that is purely subjective and not necessarily true for another. Everyone perceives everything differently, so what you call "life energy," another might not feel at all, or might feel in a different manner having different parameters over how good or bad an experience with or without a substance might be. I know from having used a great many substances during my life, all of which I quit cold turkey, including smoking tobacco and other things, and drinking alcohol and even a few other worse substances.

I've lived and dropped nearly all of my bad habits. Now I just enjoy a single cup of coffee in the morning, but I can easily do without it. My "life energy" is fine, untainted, not lessened or made lesser or greater. The mind is a tricky thing, to say the least, but having a clear mind is not really necessarily the top of the scale of ways to be, although I admit that it is certainly more helpful than having a cloudy or confused mind. But it is a good deal away from the best or highest states one could experience. So while it is fine and certainly better than some other states, why not seek after even better or more beneficial states? That is my view on it anyhow. Mind is limited, but Being is not. How one goes about doing or attaining that is really where the difference lies between individuals.

Edited to correct spelling mistakes


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## LyteTouch (Dec 26, 2021)

Akanah said:


> This is an interesting topic. What about coffee ? I start drinking coffee 2 years ago and now I think I end with this again because I lost my feeling of life-energy. I had not previously been aware of the major role played by the coffee-consum. In one week of absent from coffee I got a little bit of the feeling of life-energy back. This is grazy because it does means most people who drink coffee have no idea about the feeling of normal life-energy. So I think Coffee could have a similar history as alcohol as like a civilization drug for controlling the masses.


I had wondered about the coffee, alcohol, and tobacco.  My main focus has been tobacco and alcohol though.  I was wondering why there has been this obsession with toxins like these.  While the narrative in text books is like the it was wanted by the users?  Still questioning this too?


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## Safranek (Dec 26, 2021)

LyteTouch said:


> I was wondering why there has been this obsession with toxins like these.


I don't think its fair to label these as toxins. There's ample evidence that all the above have benefits when taken properly in their non-toxic doses. We can consider them all to fall under the category of drugs, not in the pharmaceutical definition, but in the sense that they affect changes in physiology.

For instance, coffee contains forms of B vitamins and is considered by some sources to be beneficial for those with low blood-pressure to consume within limits. Tobacco contains nicotine, which turns into nicotinic acid (nowadays known as niacin or vitamin B3), which also has a beneficial effect on the body. Similarly, alcohol consumed in small quantities has shown to be beneficial in the reduction of heart-related problems.

Needles to say, what makes something toxic is the quantity of it being consumed. 

Funny how none of these government-funded sources mention how toxic walking down the street of any city during rush-hour and inhaling the exhaust fumes of the numerous vehicles stuck in traffic may be. Have they tested the lungs of people consistently exposed to this environment and compared them to the lungs of smokers living in the country for instance? We all know the answer.

There's a reason for the saying; "One man's food is another man's poison."


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## JWW427 (Apr 29, 2022)

I like a cold beer now and then, but....its promotion and distribution is an agenda.


"For some, it might be hard to realize that alcohol is actually a toxic chemical. Sure, it can make a party more lively and it can bring out the social side of people, but at what cost? The body is severely affected by the continued use of alcohol, and it's important that the general public know this.Essentially, there are two toxins in alcohol that the body needs to work hard to eliminate. These are acetaldehyde and acetic acid. Acetaldehyde is a colorless liquid created by oxidizing ethanol. And alcohol is a colorless, flammable liquid that comes in various forms. However, the form that is used in beverages such as wine, beer, and liquor is known as ethyl alcohol. It is produced through the fermentation of grains and fruits, which happens when yeast acts upon certain ingredients in food and creates alcohol. Beer and wine are drinks that are fermented and can contain anywhere from 2% to 20% alcohol. And other drinks that are distilled, such as liquor, can contain anywhere from 40% to 50% of alcohol.No matter the type of alcoholic drink, however, alcohol is dangerous to the body. The liver does the majority of the hard work in processing alcohol and removing it from our system. However, about 10% of alcohol is also eliminated through our breath, sweat, and urine. Whatever is left in the body will slowly be eliminated over the next 7-12 hours following drinking.Although the liver does the hardest work in eliminating toxins, alcohol use impacts all the other major organs as well. In fact, the head scientist of a study on alcoholism reported the following: "Clearly alcohol abuse can compromise the structure and functionality of several human organs, thus directly increasing the risk of death," The study mentioned here also revealed that alcoholics may be more at risk for certain types of cancers. This study and other research studies have found that alcoholism can contribute to the following health problems:


Hypertension
Irregular heartbeat
Impotence
Irregular menstrual cycles
Pancreatitis
Stroke
Confusion
Amnesia
Cirrhosis
Dementia
Seizures
Gout
High blood pressure
Nerve damage
Night sweats


The benefits of booze​Research shows imbibers may have better immune systems, stronger bones, and a lower diabetes riskTrusted Source for women.

The most prolific body of research, though, is around protecting your heart. A 2015 studyTrusted Sourcereview confirms light drinking might actually help protect against coronary artery disease, which contributes to stroke and heart failure.

Alcohol benefits your heart by reducing inflammation, the hardening and narrowing of your arteries, and the formation of blood clots — all factors associated with coronary artery disease, explains Sandra Gonzalez, PhD, instructor in the department of family and community medicine at Baylor College of Medicine.

But, as research in BMC MedicineTrusted Source points out, the benefit only holds for those who stick to moderate drinking and don’t go overboard.


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## luddite (Apr 29, 2022)

JWW427 said:


> Alcohol benefits your heart by reducing inflammation, the hardening and narrowing of your arteries, and the formation of blood clots — all factors associated with coronary artery disease, explains Sandra Gonzalez, PhD, instructor in the department of family and community medicine at Baylor College of Medicine.


This is the trick! Having the culture and habit to stick to one or two drinks per week. My wife makes komucha and accidentally left a batch for too long. It had turned to a very low percentage alcohol beverage. We both dont drink but drank this unknowingly. I only had a sip but could definitely tell. Maybe we can make a batch to have once per week...


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## Gladius (May 3, 2022)

A few interesting notes about alcohol:

1. Many producers (in Europe) trace their distillery all the way to 1600-1800, and some even further back to 1300-1500. Outside of the alcohol industry, I can barely think of other businesses who can boast in such a long heritage. It's all the more interesting when you're aware of the phantom years, and the shadiness of those centuries.

2. Production is historically controlled by religious men, particularly monks in monasteries. It seems that intoxication was the least of their goals when working on their products. Even in the Arabic world, the local drinks were produced by Christian monks.

3. In the Arabic culture, the prevailing drink is Arak, made of anise. It can be found anywhere the Muslim conquest came to be, and was traded worldwide.
The early traces of organized Arak production seem to come from the 1200's, again dominated by non-Muslim producers. As we know, alcohol consumption is forbidden in Islam, yet we see a historically flourishing industry of wine and arak manufacture all the way to the late 1800s, and the product was brought to all corners of the Muslim world such as Indonesia. Doesn't coincide well with alleged religious zealousy.

Interestingly, it is nearly impossible to find the equivalent of Europe's old manufacturers in the Muslim world. The older distilleries will trace their work back to 1880 and onward, with most tracing back to the 1930s, again, mainly by Christian Arabs. There are no surviving brands from days of old. In Europe it almost seems that if an alcoholic brand is younger than the 19th century, it's as if it was still a 'baby'.

----

Alcohol it seems was not invented for intoxication, perhaps apart from feasts. The medicinal values were far more valued. From a certain point in history, the controllers begin to promote alcohol as 'pleasure' rather than 'medicine', probably around the time modern medicine begins. It perhaps coincides with a change in the low-class daily life, which became harsher, switching from independent village economy to a strict servitude under local lords. Also, the creation of the modern, nationalistic army (late 19th cen.). Both required frequent intoxication to keep people going.
If you lived or had been to a truly poor vilage, you'd know that alcohol fills a great hole for some there, made by suffering and emptiness, which is reinforced by a strong "enabler" culture that makes sure every man drinks.
The modern army life is unnatural as well. It's no longer the 'band of heroes' set out to defend their children, but a massive force of unrelated people, drafted by force, yelled at and punished often, not knowing their goals, and made to participate in great horrors. It is one horror to fight your enemy face to face, but totally different to sit in trenches and not to see your enemy. This psychological effect of the army life must coincide with the rise of alcohol intoxication. Soldiers were provided with drinks in masse, but they also took their traumas home, where the consumption must continue to drown the sorrows.


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## Magnetic (May 3, 2022)

To produce alcohol one does chemistry.  While living in South America I was introduced to a local brew nicknamed Puta(whore).  It was made from raw sugar cane and the resultant local distillation was the most toxic alcoholic witches brew I have ever encountered.  The smell was an over powering smell of benzene and other industrial solvents that made it unbearable even to smell.  The taste was worse!  The poor people drink this stuff because it is cheap as sugar cane grows everywhere.  Most biological substances will produce alcohol by fermentation but unwanted chemical reactions occur with most fruit and vegetables that produce "cogeners" which are incomplete reactions of various substances that cause the fowl smells and tastes and create health hazards for those who imbibe them and side effects like headaches.  Raw sugar cane has particularly nasty cogeners which must have extremely negative health outcomes on those who partake of this toxic brew.  Now with high tech distillation one can select out the nasties by keeping strict control of temperature gradient and disposing of the distillants that do not conform to the temperature evaporation pattern.  But in South America this was not done so toxic local brews could be found everywhere even though it was technically illegal. My belabored point is that poor distillation could used as a weapon against the people and cause health issues and shorten the lifespans of the imbibers, in other word as a bio-weapon.  Those who are in charge come from a long line of poisoners and I can easily see how this would fit into their tactics used against the populous.


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## ThomasVonDerBosch (May 4, 2022)

The original use for the spirit of the plant kingdom (spiritus) is to make herbal tinctures for medicinal purposes. These are anywhere from 40% abv. and up, dependant on the herb and the type of tincture. These medicines are taken by the drop. Often only a few drops are effective. ie a few drops of Spagyric tincture of cannabis will make a person feel high and hungry for 24 hours. Alcohol was meant to be used as a carrier of plant medicines. It is not a social drink. It's also illegal to make plant tinctures as medicine in Canada. Surprised??

The metabolic effects of alcohol consumption are exactly the same as refined sugar, however the body is effective at rejecting this toxic overload by closing off the cells when the toxin is sensed. In approx. ten minutes the cells close off. Afterwards it takes a great deal of salt and water to rid the body of the overload leaving us dehydrated. Ever notice the skin of an alcoholic?

We have friends whose daughter attended a Washington DC university with a wine cooler in her dorm room!!! Her dad owns a Napa winery. They drink every day!! They will both die young. Exactly what the ptb want. That's why there's a liquor store on every corner and you can't find a tincture at the pharmacists.

Coffee taxes your adrenals. The "awake" feeling is adrenaline being released. There's nothing good about drinking coffee aside the smell. It tastes like crap black and acidifies the body. Test your saliva and urine pH. Chronic low pH plus sugar = cancer. It's also tied with tea as the most pesticide laden crop in the world!! If your kidneys are functioning well and your hydrated you will pee four times in the hour after drinking a cup of Tim Hortons. Both coffee and regular tea are causing a very real epidemic of prostate cancer. Then they do the most invasive biopsy through the anus injecting bacteria into your prostate. I personally know someone who died from sepsis 24hrs after a prostate biopsy. This person was otherwise completely healthy. but im wandering off topic.

There's a Timmies at every corner with line ups daily. It's the era of the soft kill, making it unnecessary to legislate mandatory alcohol and coffee drinking. People line up to pay on their own.......

Drink plasma instead. Use the cleanest water you have and add approx. 1% sea salt. Thats 1gram per Liter. Drink this first thing in the morning and you will feel "alive" all day instead of dropping off at 2pm. Drinking plasma is infinitely more hydrating than drinking straight water. Everything you have heard about to much salt is a farce. You can salt the $hit out of your food. I have a 74 yo father in law who salts everything. The man shovels snow and landscapes "to keep busy" and has the same waist size since he was 19. 

There's a pattern here. What makes us sick is on every street corner. What keeps us healthy is illegal or shunned.


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## Udjat (Aug 18, 2022)

ThomasVonDerBosch said:


> The original use for the spirit of the plant kingdom (spiritus) is to make herbal tinctures for medicinal purposes. These are anywhere from 40% abv. and up, dependant on the herb and the type of tincture. These medicines are taken by the drop. Often only a few drops are effective. ie a few drops of Spagyric tincture of cannabis will make a person feel high and hungry for 24 hours. Alcohol was meant to be used as a carrier of plant medicines. It is not a social drink. It's also illegal to make plant tinctures as medicine in Canada. Surprised??
> 
> The metabolic effects of alcohol consumption are exactly the same as refined sugar, however the body is effective at rejecting this toxic overload by closing off the cells when the toxin is sensed. In approx. ten minutes the cells close off. Afterwards it takes a great deal of salt and water to rid the body of the overload leaving us dehydrated. Ever notice the skin of an alcoholic?
> 
> ...


I think what you said is right on!  I just wanted to point out also, and excuse me if someone else touched on this, the devastation it causes between relationships.  It can destroy not only the alcoholic but whomever comes in contact with that person, also feeling the burden.


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## Frits (Aug 18, 2022)

ThomasVonDerBosch said:


> Exactly what the ptb want. That's why there's a liquor store on every corner and you can't find a tincture at the pharmacists.


From revalations of Dr. Day (1968):

*THE ENCOURAGEMENT OF DRUG ABUSE TO CREATE A JUNGLE ATMOSPHERE*

    Drug use would be increased. Alcohol use would be increased. Law enforcement
efforts against drugs would be increased. On first hearing that it sounded like
a contradiction. Why increase drug abuse and simultaneously increase law
enforcement against drug abuse? But the idea is that, in part, the increased
availability of drugs would provide a sort of law of the jungle whereby the weak
and the unfit would be selected out. There was a statement made at the time:
"Before the earth was overpopulated, there was a law of the jungle where only
the fittest survived. You had to be able to protect yourself against the
elements and wild animals and disease. And if you were fit you survived. But now
we've become so civilized - we're over civilized - and the unfit are enabled to
survive only at the expense of those who are more fit." And the abusive drugs
then, would restore, in a certain sense, the law of the jungle, and selection of
the fittest for survival. News about drug abuse and law enforcement efforts
would tend to keep drugs in the public consciousness. And would also tend to
reduce this unwarranted American complacency that the world is a safe place, and
a nice place.


*ALCOHOL ABUSE*

    The same thing would happen with alcohol. Alcohol abuse would be both
promoted and demoted at the same time. The vulnerable and the weak would respond
to the promotions and therefore use and abuse more alcohol. Drunk driving would
become more of a problem; and stricter rules about driving under the influence
would be established so that more and more people would lose their privilege to
drive.


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## Mick Harper (Aug 18, 2022)

I don't agree with very much of what Thomas says, being of the Fear and Loathing school myself, apart from the salt. Many years ago an obscure study showed there was an association between salt and strokes (I think it was). Nobody would have taken any notice except that salt is used in cheapo but delicio snacks and they were the chief targets of the Health Lobby. It's one thing taking on the sugar lobby or the wheat lobby or even the snack lobby or the kids lobby but there really isn't a salt lobby, so the guns were trained on the salt.

Everyone started giving up salt -- or had it taken away from them by pusillanimous snack manufacturers -- and everyone started getting sick, or at any rate suffering from malaise. Not me, bub. The only question that remans to be answered is whether refined table salt is OK. Personally, since the cost implication is trifling, I always use sea salt just in case. After all, we mammals evolved on sea salt and, if our bodies start feeling the lack, we travel miles in search of salt licks or, if necessary we start eating earth. That's if we are animals. Me, I go to Tesco for my sea salt flakes and sprinkle it on so I can actually see it, and crunch it.


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## Frits (Aug 18, 2022)

In the animal world alchohol can be a problem too:

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63dcdWJrhfg_

 I think this was made by Bert Haanstra a well-known Dutch filmmaker: 
Bert Haanstra - Wikipedia


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## feralimal (Aug 18, 2022)

Mick Harper said:


> I don't agree with very much of what Thomas says, being of the Fear and Loathing school myself, apart from the salt. Many years ago an obscure study showed there was an association between salt and strokes (I think it was). Nobody would have taken any notice except that salt is used in cheapo but delicio snacks and they were the chief targets of the Health Lobby. It's one thing taking on the sugar lobby or the wheat lobby or even the snack lobby or the kids lobby but there really isn't a salt lobby, so the guns were trained on the salt.
> 
> Everyone started giving up salt -- or had it taken away from them by pusillanimous snack manufacturers -- and everyone started getting sick, or at any rate suffering from malaise. Not me, bub. The only question that remans to be answered is whether refined table salt is OK. Personally, since the cost implication is trifling, I always use sea salt just in case. After all, we mammals evolved on sea salt and, if our bodies start feeling the lack, we travel miles in search of salt licks or, if necessary we start eating earth. That's if we are animals. Me, I go to Tesco for my sea salt flakes and sprinkle it on so I can actually see it, and crunch it.


Salt is essential.  Animals are given salt licks, the most common invasive medical procedure (other than vaccines) is a saline drip.  Having plenty of it ensures that your stomach acid is strong enough - digesting your food well provides a systemic boost.  It is the one thing that your body ensures remains stable in your blood, even if it means making your blood thicker.  We eat far too little in general.  As a source, sea salt is excellent.

If you like, you can take a look at this page for more info (if you can get passed the comedic, safe for work, url):
Salt


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## Frits (Aug 18, 2022)

feralimal said:


> salt licks,


Magnesium sulphate, used for cows_, _that is an other salt than common kitchen salt_._
Magnesium Sulphate is used for liver cleansing. 
The Amazing Liver Cleanse Andreas Moritz
The best salt to use is grey sea salt or Himalya salt (minarels)


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## Mick Harper (Aug 19, 2022)

We're convinced but, as usual, the real problem is how to convince the world. It's already become a 'moral issue'. Small, white and deadly. The look of horror you get if you suggest it socially would, in other circumstances, be a joy to behold. "Kids, eat more crisps" is not an election-winning slogan.


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## ProfessorHotStuff (Aug 19, 2022)

Mick Harper said:


> white and deadly.


That's me, baby! But seriously, be careful with table salt (the type that is uniformly cubic) because aluminum was added to it ostensibly to make it pour better. Because our superiors in the food manufacturing industries know what's best for us.

I have been gradually reducing my addictions over time because they all seem to exist to control and weaken me. Kratom seems quite broadly deleterious to health and I finally quit that. At the risk of providing too much information, it was messing up my sperm tests (it creates an increase in raw numbers but they are all deformed and non-motile). Marijuana reduces men's sperm counts by ~12% according to some studies and, in my opinion, promotes docility above and beyond alcohol. At least with alcohol you can make connections with strangers and still, if badly, attempt an uprising. With marijuana you become a vegetable (it also increases estrogen in men, apparently). Hence why it is being legalized in state after state. ...That, and it softens states up and prepares them for habitation by California transplants.


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## Mick Harper (Aug 19, 2022)

I could not agree with you more about marijuana. An incredibly pernicious drug. I dunno about aluminium (or quite why the world needs easy-pour salt) but I got rid of all my mercury fillings for obvious reasons. I will let you know about Kratom now that I've heard of it.


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## Udjat (Aug 19, 2022)

I think salt is not the topic of this discussion.  No need to harp on someone who was just making a point, like the rest of us.


Second, who the hell would get animals drunk just to see the aftermath?  


_View: https://youtu.be/Ms2JRYbM60E_

this video is quite interesting!


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## Frits (Aug 19, 2022)

Udjat said:


> Second, who the hell would get animals drunk just to see the aftermath?


There is a tree that bears fruit (Marula) that ferments. If they fall to the ground, the fruits contain a lot of alcohol. The fruits are consumed by various animals from the environment, so they are not fed drunk, they do that themselves by eating the fruits.


Udjat said:


> I think salt is not the topic of this discussion.  No need to harp on someone who was just making a point, like the rest of us.
> 
> 
> Second, who the hell would get animals drunk just to see the aftermath?
> ...



I always have a bit of trouble with Praveen Mohan; he made a video about knots, but I think he's making a big mistake there: it's not knots, it's sound and frequencies.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsAXTd3IoNU_


But we stray from the subject.


Mick Harper said:


> Small, white and deadly.


The same is said of sugar. Refined sugar is really really bad. Best is the sugar that comes from above the ground: cane sugar.
So no underground sugars: beet sugar, etc.

Salt, as well as sugar, are almost as addictive as cocaine. Salt is a flavor enhancer, just like MSG, it triggers the body to eat more through a trigger in the nervous system.
The food industry knows this and uses it.


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## ThomasVonDerBosch (Oct 5, 2022)

I have a childhood friend who drinks beer daily while his wife prefers wine. His skin looks like worn out leather and he is miserable without it. He never wants to go anywhere or do anything citing being tired from work. His “better” half has now stopped eating anything but Ensure. Her teeth are falling out or black. She has lost weight to the point of looking anorexic. They both smoke tobacco daily and cannabis occasionally. These are the pitfalls of my generation. At 50 something many are dropping.

If you can drink a coffee and fall asleep your adrenals are so stressed they are not working at all.

Drink plasma first thing in the morning instead. Then when you do have the occasional coffee you will be amazed at how much of an upper it is. 

 My mother used to say she felt her 50s were her best years and she felt great. She grew up in a small farm town in the middle of Germany. Never drank never smoked and drank coffee/tea occasionally.


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## Mick Harper (Oct 5, 2022)

You've convinced me. I'm moving to a small farm town in the middle of Germany.


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## TheImp (Oct 5, 2022)

alltheleaves said:


> Prohibition in the US circa 1920 to early 1930s. (dates approximate)
> 
> Need to find out who funded the Women’s Christian Temperance Union and the National Prohibition Party circa 1870.
> 
> ...



Prohibition did make people wealthy, if even through the Mafia alone being bootleggers. I need to get back my lent-out copy of Occult Theocrasy Vol. II (by Edith Starr Miller). From my recollection of that book, she details how the occult groups were fully behind the movement by appealing to the moral groups of the day. If you can, read both volumes as they are an incredible wealth of information. I'll come back and either edit this post or make a new one when I can pull the details.



ThomasVonDerBosch said:


> Coffee taxes your adrenals. The "awake" feeling is adrenaline being released. There's nothing good about drinking coffee aside the smell. It tastes like crap black and acidifies the body.



I'll agree with you on the coffee being absolutely horrendous for you if you get the overly processed and burned swill they make in factories. If you purchase beans from a reputable source and roast them yourself without using any flavored oils (of dubious origin - seriously, I have never been able to find an ingredient list for the ones used by roasters here in the U.S.) to hide the age and quality of the beans like most roasters do, you get a much nicer taste and smell, and not as many weird feelings/side affects from it. I've definitely noticed a change for myself since I've started doing that.


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## Safranek (Oct 5, 2022)

TheImp said:


> Prohibition did make people wealthy, if even through the Mafia alone being bootleggers.


The book in this post - Dope Inc. - outlines this aspect of history very clearly. It's well worth reading. Although I don't agree 100% with some of its his historical conclusions, there is a great example of follow the money in it, especially when it comes to 'dope' and alcohol. Accordingly, the so-called Mafia were the small-fry.


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## ThomasVonDerBosch (Oct 6, 2022)

Hey Mick, when you do give my regards to the local brewery. Rotherbrau since 1788. I can attest they make very tasty beer.
Mums hometown brewery


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