# Looking to Research a local Landmark. Where to look?



## Unclepeanutbutter (Dec 30, 2021)

I am looking to dive into a local landmark. It is a well known geographic feature and also had a military installation built next to it. 
Locals I've spoken with, attest there is a bunker still present even after the supposed closing and complete dismantling of the facility. 
There are some areas not open to the public. 
I have to say I have not made the trek on foot yet as it is not the season and it is some km in and out. 
Would there be suggestions as to finding information on construction plans (beyond the basic LoC info), other uses, or if I can find out if things are still classified? 
I have never researched anything beyond a local library and basic net searches. 
I do not wish to pay for information at this point. 
Any websites that may be of particular interest? 
Any help is appreciated


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## trismegistus (Dec 30, 2021)

When it comes to the nuts and bolts documentation of buildings, its quite difficult to find that stuff on a website.  You will likely have to do some local digging - as if you were an insurance agent.  

Historical societies, city hall, or other various local resources are likely going to be your best bet.  And like you said of course, going to the building itself and asking around.  

Without knowing more specifics as to what structure you are looking to research, it would be difficult to point you to specific websites.


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## Unclepeanutbutter (Dec 30, 2021)

trismegistus said:


> When it comes to the nuts and bolts documentation of buildings, its quite difficult to find that stuff on a website.  You will likely have to do some local digging - as if you were an insurance agent.
> 
> Historical societies, city hall, or other various local resources are likely going to be your best bet.  And like you said of course, going to the building itself and asking around.
> 
> Without knowing more specifics as to what structure you are looking to research, it would be difficult to point you to specific websites.


Badger Army Ordinance. 
There are a ton of anomalies with the site. There is supposed to be a bunker/base built into the bluffs. There are active life support systems built and still operating on site, under the guise of water contamination. There is a lot of infrastructure still present and operating for a long remediated/disposed of site. 
The local geographic history is very curious. Iron mines, a place where a glacier just stopped and turned. 
I only can find the basic story. Would I find blue-prints for the water systems? Electrical systems? Where are those records found?
If nothing else, just finding that information may still be classified, would be a start.


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## trismegistus (Dec 30, 2021)

Unclepeanutbutter said:


> If nothing else, just finding that information may still be classified, would be a start.


When it comes to military bases, this is likely what you will run into.

You could try a FOIA request, though I can't offer much more info on that as I haven't done one myself.


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## MgvdT (Dec 31, 2021)

Perhaps you're lucky and one of the many American urban explorers gone that way? In the Netherlands I usually take a look around local archives and ofcourse the locals. Good luck!


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## Unclepeanutbutter (Dec 31, 2021)

MgvdT said:


> Perhaps you're lucky and one of the many American urban explorers gone that way? In the Netherlands I usually take a look around local archives and ofcourse the locals. Good luck


I haven't seen much of anyone trying to find any real truth. I would like to find out the real reasons they chose this site. 
It is adjacent (just over the hill, literally) from Devils Lake (a State Park). A lake formed in a very odd shape, by a glacier that turned 90 degrees and blew out a gorge wall.  Area #1. 
Area #2 is the north end of the Badger Army Ordinance Plant Est. 1942. 
There are active water filtration systems and processing plants still active and quite new next to the base of the "Baraboo Bluffs". I have heard many people's accounts of what they have seen, but I can't confirm those claims yet. Most of the grounds have been re-opened to the public. Some areas are still off limits.  It was remediated for asbestos about 10-15 yr ago. That was when they bulldozed most of the structures. 
There were several explosions while this was happening. (I was working a cpl miles away at the time and felt them my self) Only one was explained to me by the ppl doing the work. The tunnels they described were somewhat interesting but now destroyed and lost. 
There are many things in the local history that line up with mud flood timelines. There were several Iron mines that sprung up only to be closed within a couple decades mid to late 1800's. None of the records speak of the rail bed that makes it way up the bluff at almost a 4/12 pitch.
No maps even mark these. You can clearly see them from the hi-way. All of the infrastructure is behind a couple tree rows. Not hidden but not observable from the hi-way. The historical building on site, states that over eight hundred buildings and tens of families were living there when the site was chosen. There are three cemeteries on the site. If you go to wikrap it says that all the farmers left before it was built. 
Visit here to read some real whoppers https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/topic/parks/devilslake/history  . 
If anyone has anything they could add . . .


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## trismegistus (Dec 31, 2021)

Unclepeanutbutter said:


> I haven't seen much of anyone trying to find any real truth. I would like to find out the real reasons they chose this site.
> It is adjacent (just over the hill, literally) from Devils Lake (a State Park). A lake formed in a very odd shape, by a glacier that turned 90 degrees and blew out a gorge wall.





Unclepeanutbutter said:


> Visit here to read some real whoppers https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/topic/parks/devilslake/history .





> During the hard times of the 1930s depression era, a *Civilian Conservation Corps (C.C.C.) work camp was established inside the state park*. From 1934 to 1941, about 200 young men worked on many projects that continue to benefit the park even to this day. They built trails in some of the most rugged parts of the park, removed invasive species, guided visitors onto the bluffs, built tables, signs and benches, built a reservoir, relocated roads, patrolled the bluffs as fireguards and built at least three stone buildings.



https://stolenhistory.net/threads/the-ccc-civilian-conservation-corps.1199/

You'll note I made a reply in that thread about another CCC park near me, also named *Devil's* Den.  These people had a strange fasincation with Satan and Lucifer - the newsletter the CCC used back in those days was called the Lucifer Times (no source but I did see that on a plaque in the aforementioned park).  

See also: 

https://stolenhistory.net/threads/army-corps-of-engineers-benign-builders-or-history-erasers.429/

ACoE seems to turn up in the same places as the CCC  in those days - dollars to donuts theres an ACoE office somewhere nearby the site from the OP.  I wouldn't be surprised if the ACoE were responsible for the nearby Lake Wisconsin.  My guess is any records if they still exist are in ownership by either of these entities.  

It seems this place checks off many hidden history boxes.  You're barking up the right trees, to be sure.

Military base
Old tunnel systems
State park with Devil in the name
ACoE
CCC
Vague associations with Native Americans/mound builders
Unexplained abandoned railroads
Larger population than seems reasonable for the time
Modern phones have light use LIDAR tech on them - perhaps this might be the only way amateur sleuths such as us can find anything concrete.


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## Unclepeanutbutter (Dec 31, 2021)

Interesting to note I found this basic Topo map of the Bluffs
Note in the center right the area where Devils Lake is. There is a peculiar L shape cut through the Quartzite bluffs. The rails are laid through here along the inside right edge of the cut. This is interesting due to the rail bed that existed where St Hwy 12 runs now. The railbed can be seen while driving north during the daytime (as before mentioned). The lists of A1 crap stories about who and when are really hard to believe.
Ulysses S. Grant once was there, Lincoln's wife visited, the Ringling Bros once owned property on the lake and would let his Elephants roam and play there. All this and absolutely no mention of anyone living on the other side in the prairie? Also, the only transportation modes mentioned were Rail. I find this very interesting due to the fact that the WI river is in very close proximity and this is the only known (through the use of the portage canal ((it's own dive)) route that could have connected the Great Lakes, Erie Canal, to the Mississippi.
This site looks to be older than the history given.
It's interesting you mentioned the CCC because they named many formations Devils this/that in the park.
The ACoE is all over this too.  All sorts of things have existed there with no trace left, a hotel on the top of a ridge (closed because someone died of typhus), a winery and vineyard (?/!), and a golf course.
Too much to make sense of . . . wonder why?
I think I'll try to find some geological reports of the surrounding area as I know of other geographic anomalies in the surrounding area.
Also I learned in School that Devils lake was created through glaciation. The Map of the glaciers that the UW Made Up shows that the glacier never quite made it to the site???
So I am dropping FOIAs like they are goin outa style. Does anyone know what national archive I should request records from or how they are kept? Am I looking to find certain time periods corresponding to certain archives or are they regional???


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## trismegistus (Jan 1, 2022)

Unclepeanutbutter said:


> I think I'll try to find some geological reports of the surrounding area as I know of other geographic anomalies in the surrounding area



Elevation/LiDAR Data


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## Unclepeanutbutter (Jan 1, 2022)

trismegistus said:


> Elevation/LiDAR Data


Would anyone know what nation archive I would want to send a FOIA to? Are they regional, is it done by chronological period, ??
I dumped a mass amount of FOIAs on different gov agencies. We will see if anything sticks. The CIA has been in town for a minute.
Allen Dulles notes meeting ppl here in some of the reading room docs. I also know of a certain Ukranian American Youth camp in the area as well as some in the local elderly community were devout communists. 
I've never gone this deep and it's one rabbit warren after another.


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## usselo (Jan 1, 2022)

Great to read this thread. From a UK perspective, where you see:

Landmarks named after the Devil (or Grim), Satan or Lucifer
Mounds
Odd lakes
Odd cuts, ditches or ridges
Hotels in cliffs and high places
Remains of old railways
Abandoned canals or rivers with unnatural courses (can be harder to spot than they seem)
Hillforts or 'enclosures' of one sort or another
Stories of war and buried soldiers
Homes of rich people of the past
Mythology/folklore about landscape change
Odd geological depositions
'Glaciation' explanations
Holy well/magical spring stories
then, as an investigatory rule of thumb, you are looking at 'ancient' quarrying. Not so ancient I suspect, but that's another matter.

In the Quarried Hunstanton posts (1, 2, 3) in the IHASFEMR thread, I didn't go into it but there's an oddly-explained hotel on Hunstanton's cliff. And various other elements that point to the reality of the situation.

It will be interesting to read what you find.


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## Unclepeanutbutter (Jan 1, 2022)

Interesting side note: The Lake was known as Manitou Lake (spirit lake) by the natives. Had a hotel called the Cliffside Hotel built as a smaller building called the Minniwauken later to be expanded to the Cliffside Hotel. 
There is also a Cliffside Hotel at Pikes Peak CO. It looks identical in style and time period. It's owned by Manitou Hotels Co. 
(Devils Lake) The story is that it was started on Feb 2nd 1866 as the minniwauken, could house 20 guests. When expanded in 1873
to the Cliffside and had 70 bedrooms. Also found these pics of Manitou Springs CO (Below) In 1904 it was no longer profitable so it was dismantled for "scrap lumber" (because in the early 1900's there was a shortage of cheap lumber in WI). a few year later. Funny that It states that the company operating one of the quarries (American Refractory Co ((who I can't find anything on yet)) housed their workers and their families in the Cliffside from 1907 until 1912. All quarries were supposed to be on the East bluff. They operated a quarry until 1967 and in 1978 the property became part of the park. 
The Native stories tell of serpent ppl of the underworld living in the lake. It is also said that there are underground tunnels beneath the lake (native lore). It's said that the evil spirits are sometimes known to drown ppl and steal babies. There was told of a great battle between the firebirds (said to have taken human form looking like winged men with bows and flame lit arrows) and the water panthers (serpent ppl). The lake is somewhat strange in that there are no known springs and no known out flowing waters. No one knows how it maintains the water level.
The great battle between a young warrior and a seven headed serpent. The serpent kept demanding sacrifice of women. When asked for the Chiefs daughter, the warrior fought the entity and defeated it. The warrior and daughter married and settled. The place (unknown spot) was known as "The Riverbottom Village". 
More to come as we get deeper down the hole. . .


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## usselo (Jan 1, 2022)

Unclepeanutbutter said:


> Interesting side note: The Lake was known as Manitou Lake (spirit lake) by the natives. Had a hotel called the Cliffside Hotel built as a smaller building called the Minniwauken later to be expanded to the Cliffside Hotel.
> There is also a Cliffside Hotel at Pikes Peak CO. It looks identical in style and time period. It's owned by Manitou Hotels Co.
> (Devils Lake) The story is that it was started on Feb 2nd 1866 as the minniwauken, could house 20 guests. When expanded in 1873
> to the Cliffside and had 70 bedrooms. Also found these pics of Manitou Springs CO (Below) In 1904 it was no longer profitable so it was dismantled for "scrap lumber" (because in the early 1900's there was a shortage of cheap lumber in WI). a few year later. Funny that It states that the company operating one of the quarries (American Refractory Co ((who I can't find anything on yet)) housed their workers and their families in the Cliffside from 1907 until 1912. All quarries were supposed to be on the East bluff. They operated a quarry until 1967 and in 1978 the property became part of the park.
> ...


You don't need me to spell out the similarities between that and other work on this board.

Re the American Refractory Co, it will be funny if they were making 'earthenware', which seems to appear when there is iron-rich run-off slurry from some quarrying operations.



> The lake is somewhat strange in that there are no known springs and no known out flowing waters. No one knows how it maintains the water level.



Those coincidences keep on coming... about the time you were posting I was reading about Britain's only known remaining example of similar. Item 13: Pant-y-Llyn in Secret Wales: 34 hidden, fascinating places you've never seen before

There are other references to this kind of lake - a turlough, apparently - in John Byng's work and Adrian Grey's 'Hidden Lincolnshire'. The lakes seem to be gone now but seeing them makes me think they (or their legends) indicated quarrying.
​


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## Unclepeanutbutter (Jan 1, 2022)

usselo said:


> Re the American Refractory Co, it will be funny if they were making 'earthenware', which seems to appear when there is iron-rich run-off slurry from some quarrying operations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They state that the material was used to line the inside of the steel blast furnaces of the mills in chicago and gary indiana.
The Iron mines are hard to find info on for being so well known locally. The area is also known for having really rich deposits of Iron. Makes me think if I listen to the B.S. geology there should be gold to be found in the surrounding creeks. I just wonder why I can't find any info on them. 
The Co exists but was only established in the last 30 years. Also, the lake has perfect N/S orientation? I saw pictures of a mine on site (the shore of the lake) and they had three rail lines and a spur. I can't find the pic now . . .


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## Unclepeanutbutter (Jan 2, 2022)

I need to know if pictures can be flipped like they do on phone cameras?? I assume the answer is yes, if you can flip your negative when developing your actual photo (never took photography in H.S.) . . . The reason I ask is that the orientation is 180 out, backwards.
Also, just found a little know photo of some "fraternal mens order" that met in their clubhouse in the wood next to the only spring that feeds the lake. . . More on them as I can find info.
This crap is getting really deep for just some local park and and powder plant.

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Does anyone know what the required criteria were at the turn of the century or just before, to get a Post Office???
The lake had it's own PO and Jail among other things.


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## trismegistus (Jan 2, 2022)

Unclepeanutbutter said:


> Oh yeah, almost forgot. Does anyone know what the required criteria were at the turn of the century or just before, to get a Post Office???
> The lake had it's own PO and Jail among other things.



I grew up near a place that used to store refuse from the Manhattan project and other war related chemical weapons research. I remember it was always weird to me that this waste management dump was on a road that had its own zip code, and post office. Even as a kid I thought it was strange. Nowhere near as strange as the coincidence that the area had a massively high cancer rate, but I digress.

I don’t think it’s ever a good thing when a small area like these have their own zip and PO.


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## Unclepeanutbutter (Jan 5, 2022)

I'll be on business for a month. I may post, but I won't have much new to add until I return.
Interesting side note: The U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commision gets rather upset when you put a FOIA request in and don't give a known nuclear location.
They wanted to know why I sent the request. They contacted me twice in twelve hours. And it was a person, the same person.
The USPS said they didn't want to give me anything because my request was too broad.  I sent them a more specific list . . . to start.

I do wonder if anyone on here can give some advice on things to request of wordage that may yield more/better results?? Pertaining to FOIAs


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## luddite (May 27, 2022)

Unclepeanutbutter said:


> I'll be on business for a month. I may post, but I won't have much new to add until I return.
> Interesting side note: The U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commision gets rather upset when you put a FOIA request in and don't give a known nuclear location.
> They wanted to know why I sent the request. They contacted me twice in twelve hours. And it was a person, the same person.
> The USPS said they didn't want to give me anything because my request was too broad.  I sent them a more specific list . . . to start.
> ...


Are you back? Interested if you are close with your thread.


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## Unclepeanutbutter (Aug 14, 2022)

So, I have been absent for a time. Sorry aboot that. I am just starting to get back into researching this topic.
I put in many FOIA requests only to get nowhere with almost all of them . . .  accept the CIA. I received a letter months ago stating it was going to take some time and I have not yet received any word. I will have to contact my contact from the letter. 
I also finally got some video proof of the existence of the caves and bunker.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc7fBcZ1fC0_

Check it out! It is quite short. 
Now I need some UrbEx guys to come to the rescue since enclosed spaces are not my deal. 
Just a quick update.


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## Udjat (Aug 14, 2022)

I too live near a place similar to your situation.  I was very interested in your story a while ago when I saw this thread.  I am glad to hear that you are okay, and my advice is just be careful.

Where I live, there used to be a nuclear power plant that has since been taken down, but it was also part of a hydro power plants before and after the nuclear power plant.  The surrounding area is very peculiar and heavily guarded.  Strange is not the word for this place.  I am not sure if it has it's own zip code, but it runs through two different states.  I have also heard that one of the mountains that is situated behind this place, opens up and it is a hidden bunker.

I can't wait to hear more of what you find next.  Take care and be well!


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