# Covent Garden Market: 1 storey or 2?



## feralimal (Apr 26, 2021)

Below, are 2 photos of Covent Garden market - one current, one old.



You may have seen this before - I personally spotted the image in _@KorbenDallas_'s excellent post here:
1850s-70s: Discussion about the lack of people presented in the Abandoned Cities SH Sub-forum

I have drafted my own thoughts on this, but I'd like to see what others think first.  I don't want to potentially prejudice the results!  

PS Rather than presenting a simple true/false or yes/no dialectic in the vote - I am presenting the fuller range of options as I understand them.  


> Note: This OP was recovered from the Sh.org archive.





> Note: Archived Sh.org replies to this OP are included in this thread.


----------



## Huaqero (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: HuaqeroDate: 2019-10-17 10:20:34Reaction Score: 1


And that inclination of the ground makes it even more weird...


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-10-17 11:16:13Reaction Score: 1


Here's a couple of links that may be of use and a couple of images.
From here; 5 Facts about Covent Garden, London

From here; Covent Garden as a Palimpsest – London Geographies


----------



## feralimal (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: FeralimalDate: 2019-10-17 11:25:48Reaction Score: 0


Interesting images, but I want to focus on the one photo.  How do you interpret it?  Feel free to vote too!


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-10-17 11:34:09Reaction Score: 1


Well there are two images in one!
However the angled cobbles were outside our local market when I were a nipper, in use until the mid seventies. Reason for their use is they are a stable cold surface, being made of granite, (here at least) and easy to clean down with water.
The interior shot I posted shows there were underground or rather in ground rooms and the reason they were there is they acted as cool rooms or root cellars which can maintain a constant temperature thus maintain the quality of the stock be it fruit or veg. 
The facade seems to have had a fair few changes over the years.


----------



## feralimal (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: FeralimalDate: 2019-10-17 12:27:12Reaction Score: 0




jd755 said:


> Well there are two images in one!


One jpg file though, that's what counts!


jd755 said:


> The interior shot I posted shows there were underground or rather in ground rooms and the reason they were there is they acted as cool rooms or root cellars which can maintain a constant temperature thus maintain the quality of the stock be it fruit or veg.


Maybe that's right.  It's probably good independent analysis.

Looking at the photo alone though, what are your impressions.  You can really only tell that the road is lower, no?


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: StarmonkeyDate: 2019-10-17 14:56:43Reaction Score: 0


Street grade is horrendous. Some architecture has changed.
I was trying to figure out what's piled out in front of those buildings on the right. Or starboard if you're boating down the street...
And the weird building to the right of our "Roman conquest" with the cylinders. Buckets?...  Sandbags?... Can't tell.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: Tool18Date: 2019-10-17 15:40:43Reaction Score: 0


It almost looks as though those pillars are supposed to continue for another floor, Hard to judge because of the ground level is all over the shop, and almost looks as though its on an incline. So weather or not that continues and meets the bottom floor or not is hard to tell. 

At first I thought it was 2 storeys due to the size of people and carts compared to the structure. But at a closer glance I am pretty sure it is 1 storey, if you have a look at the 4 storey building next to it, I feel as though both photos align with the first floor of that building.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-10-17 15:42:27Reaction Score: 0




Feralimal said:


> Looking at the photo alone though, what are your impressions. You can really only tell that the road is lower, no?


They are taken from different angles and one is full of distractions and one isn't but look in the middle ground of the colour image and you see a white kerb edge running away from the cobbles clearly the slope continues as it does when you look at the line of black bollards more into the background. 
As for the structure it looks the same. I'd post more photos but you want to maintain focus on the op image.


----------



## KD Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: KorbenDallasDate: 2019-10-17 15:53:34Reaction Score: 2


I think they are the same height in both photographs. But the building is probably buried. We all know what the bottom of them columns should look like.

Ours look like this.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-10-17 17:34:30Reaction Score: 0


From here; Market Building - North and South: Buildings - Facade: Environmental Study of Covent Garden
_The north and south fronts are similar, each consisting of a long colonnade of baseless Doric columns with shop fronts running behind, terminated at either end by a lodge or square pavilion of two storeys, and having a prominent central Venetian archway flanked by wide piers supporting a triangular pediment, carrying the Russell family arms in a cartouche. The grey granite columns of the colonnade support a simple entablature and balustrade of stone. Each lodge has a ground storey of grey granite, with an upper storey of ashlar sandstone, pyramid roof and central chimney stack. The iron and glass roofs were added, following petitions by the market tenants, by William Cubitt and Co., the southern market in 1874-5; the northern in 1888-9._


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: EmmanuelZorgDate: 2019-10-17 18:10:24Reaction Score: 0


Here is a photo of a different side taken a few years back.  I don't know if this is helpful to the discussion or not.

I think the older image of the two in the OP was taken from some height, on a ladder perhaps, whereas the more modern image was taken from eye level.


----------



## KD Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: KorbenDallasDate: 2019-10-17 18:19:44Reaction Score: 1


I think the building we are looking at is called

... _I don’t know. What is it called?_
__As it stands available photographs suggest that it’s the same height back then and now.

Yet, I do think that this specific building is older than most of the surrounding ones.

I also do think that it has a pretty good chance of being a mudflooded ones.

In my opinion these columns could go way below their current bottom. Something similar to this.


_Royal Opera House, Valletta - Wikipedia_May be some paintings, engravings or woodcuts could reveal its older appearance. Additionally we need to look for renovation, maintenace or excavation type of info on this building.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: jd755Date: 2019-10-17 19:07:37Reaction Score: 0


A cracking image of the slope on the south facade the one which features in both the op images.
From here; http://www.victorianweb.org/art/architecture/london/37e.jpg
Over to you feralimal.


----------



## KD Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: KorbenDallasDate: 2019-10-18 03:21:39Reaction Score: 2




> _...requested__ an Act of Parliament in 1813 to regulate it, then commissioned Charles Fowler in 1830 to design the neo-classical market building that is the heart of Covent Garden today._


We need an image closer to 1830s.

This place reminds me of the _Boston Quincy Market._


----------



## feralimal (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: FeralimalDate: 2019-10-18 16:32:08Reaction Score: 0




jd755 said:


> Over to you feralimal.


Thanks  

Here's what I had written earlier re my thoughts on this photo:
_Initially when I saw this and could see that the road was much lower than the present day.  It seemed highly likely that this was a case of one storey having been buried.  I also happen to know that there is a basement section to this building, and it seemed very possible that the basement had been dug out.

However, on closer reflection, I have changed my opinion.  I still think that the road is a full storey lower than the present day, as you can see the bottom of the columns even through the crowds, carts and stalls.  However, the edge of the building is obscured.  If it was 2 storeys, you cannot see what would be the ground floor.  But you can see that there is a bank that rises at an incline towards the first floor.

My view on the photo and the circumstances are that the building was not buried.  Perhaps it is on a slight hill.  Perhaps the road was badly eroded, and partially washed away.  I am not certain, but if pushed, I would say, not buried._

Anyway, my main reason for posting this relates to how we look at photos.  This specific subject matter itself is interesting, but what I was really wanted was to understand how others viewed it.  Hence the vote!  ..which didn't work..  

For me, that the photo was a good example/reminder of how quickly I can assume things that perhaps I shouldn't.  You lot don't seem to rush to judgement quite as quickly as I do, and instead do your research!!




Tool18 said:


> At first I thought it was 2 storeys due to the size of people and carts compared to the structure. But at a closer glance I am pretty sure it is 1 storey, if you have a look at the 4 storey building next to it, I feel as though both photos align with the first floor of that building.


I agree - I also think both those buildings are the same then and now.


----------



## Silent Bob (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: Silent BobDate: 2019-10-20 16:04:07Reaction Score: 1


I visited here just last month, I remember thinking to myself that is was a definate mud flood. Very old building, older than most around it, has that very 'grand' feel about it. As others have mentioned, there is an underground level - to me it looks like it was originally the ground floor rather than built as a basement, typical mud flood appearance.


----------



## Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: aero618Date: 2019-10-20 16:37:08Reaction Score: 2




KorbenDallas said:


> In my opinion these columns could go way below their current bottom. Something similar to this


KD this building looks like a _Corinthian_ order (the most ornamented & later classic order) where as Covent Garden columns are _Doric_, and a very simple Doric as there are no triglyphs or metopes also columns are not fluted. Doric was the earliest (1st) classic order from Greece bc, and the earliest columns had no bases. As a fruit & veg market, the simpler the better for access and wear'n'tear~ what do you think _Feralimal ? _although the inner buildings do have a basement_, _which is common as the they are formed when you excavate to foundation level~ more so in clay or silt, if you build on exposed rock, you don't need them

__
_Parthenon~ early Doric with no column bases_


----------



## BStankman (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: BStankmanDate: 2019-10-20 20:46:42Reaction Score: 1




KorbenDallas said:


> This place reminds me of the _Boston Quincy Market._


I agree, very similar.



aero618 said:


> As a fruit & veg market, the simpler the better for access and wear'n'tear~


How far has our civilization devolved in 100 years?  
We have gone from farm markets under the Parthenon to under a pop up awning.


----------



## feralimal (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: FeralimalDate: 2019-10-21 05:15:11Reaction Score: 1




aero618 said:


> As a fruit & veg market, the simpler the better for access and wear'n'tear~ what do you think _Feralimal ? _although the inner buildings do have a basement_, _which is common as the they are formed when you excavate to foundation level


It makes sense, so one storey you think?  I also wonder about the utility of a basement for storing fruit and veg in a time before electric freezers.  Perhaps a deeper section would allow for food to be stored at a stable and lower temperature.  Or perhaps it would lower the temperature of the whole building acting as a type of early a/c.


----------



## KD Archive (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: KorbenDallasDate: 2019-10-30 01:55:12Reaction Score: 0


To serve as a possible reference point. This is Covent Garden Market area c. 1860


----------



## feralimal (Apr 26, 2021)

> Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.Username: FeralimalDate: 2019-10-30 06:57:12Reaction Score: 0


Nice photo.  Yes, this is the same configuration as now.  The main market is in the middle of a square with taller buildings all around.  You can see the pitched roof of that 1 storey building, on the left hand side of that photo, behind the barrels (?).


----------

