Dating and Chronology

[sandokhan]

See, again you are trying to deflect attention from the main issue: Exiguus recorded the WRONG dates multiple times, even during his lifetime. He is simply a fictional character.

 

[Grosseteste]

See, again you are trying to deflect attention from the main issue: Exiguus recorded the WRONG dates multiple times, even during his lifetime. He is simply a fictional character.

So not only is every document that contains a mistake a faked document, but also every document that contains a mistake is written by a fictional character? (Puzzled).

 

[sandokhan]

Those are simply impossible mistakes. Unpardonable. As soon as Exiguus would have recorded the wrong entry for the year 519 AD, his career in astronomical dating would have been over. And yet, he goes on to record THREE additional erroneous Passover dates, and Pope John I approves of his entries. Not a chance.

 

[Grosseteste]

Those are simply impossible mistakes. Unpardonable.

Why? Finding the exact time of the full moon was challenging without modern equipment.

And as it happens, Mercier's software says that a full moon occurred on 6 Apr 513, Dionysius says 5 Apr 513.

But the full illumination did not occur until the early hours of 6 April, and the illumination on the evening of the 5th was greater than the illumination on the 6th, so hardly an 'unpardonable' mistake. We are talking an error of a few hours.

 

[sandokhan]

Eusebius (Historia Ecclesiastica and Life of Constantine), the canons of the Council of Antioch (341 AD) and of the Council of Laodicea show clearly that it was forbidden to celebrate the Easter on the same date as that of the Passover. The fourth Carthaginian council (398 AD) again enforces those canons.

Surely someone must have noticed that Exiguus' easter date calculations for the year 519 AD were wrong, and that in that year the Passover coincided with the Easter. In the official chronology of history, no one notices anything at all, not even Dionysius Exiguus, who leaves the date unchanged. The same thing for the years 523 AD, 536 AD, 543 AD. No one is complaining (not even pope John I), no other historian utters a word, and Exiguus leaves the wrong dates in the Easter Tables. Then, five more entries have the wrong dates in his Easter Tables (563 AD, 570 AD, 590 AD, 594 AD, 614 AD). Since there was such a huge controversy regarding the coincidence of the Passover and of the Easter (on the same day), there must have been at least one voice to point out the discrepancies in Exiguus' computations. And Exiguus himself must have noticed that his computations, in certain years, were not correct, and indeed should have (in fact must have) modified the original entries to reflect the astronomical reality. Yet, nothing happened. Whoever falsified the Easter Tables did not have at his disposal the Gauss Easter formula to precisely calculate the Paschal moon for each year, and simply filled in the Easter Tables with the figures obtained from the Metonic cycle.

 

[Grosseteste]

Surely someone must have noticed that Exiguus' easter date calculations for the year 519 AD was wrong

The error here is larger (D has 30 March, the moon was at full illumination only by 31 March), and supports your hypothesis better.

But how exactly would people have 'noticed' the difference? I suspect that D was not making astronomical observations, but rather extrapolating from old tables. If so, there would have been no disconfirming evidence available.

On your point about the Passover, we really don't know what month the Hebrews observed Passover in the 6th century. There is evidence it was before the equinox, not after.

Whoever falsified the Easter Tables did not have at his disposal the Gauss Easter formula to precisely calculate the Paschal moon for each year, and simply filled in the Easter Tables with the figures obtained from the Metonic cycle.

Right, I agree that D probably used the Metonic cycle, extrapolating from the old Greek ms. But why does that mean he falsified anything?

 

[sandokhan]

The catatonic use of the Metonic cycle for Exiguus' Easter tables betrays someone who lived much later in time. In a real life situation, he must have modified the wrong entries right after he had noticed they did not correspond with the computed Paschal full moon. No modification, on such multiple dates, means that the tables were assembled by someone else, who obviously did not have the Gauss easter formula for immediate use, and simply utilized the Metonic cycle to fill in the entries.

 

[Grosseteste]

In a real life situation, he must have [i.e. would have] modified the wrong entries right after he had noticed they did not correspond with the computed Paschal full moon.

I asked earlier exactly what he would have 'noticed'. How would he have noticed that anything was wrong?

You imply he is checking one thing against another. What are those two things?

 

[sandokhan]

We are not dealing with a parallel universe where the Paschal full moon only fell on Saturday (500 AD - 600 AD). In this universe, there were multiple times where the Passover coincided with the Easter, right within that period. A fact which was well known to have occurred in the official chronology of history. And yet, Exiguus is recording mechanically the entries using only the Metonic cycle as his guide. As if nothing else was occurring.

As if this is not enough he assigns the date Saturday, March 24, 1,095 AD for the first Easter, something that could have been achieved only retroactively.

 

[Grosseteste]

We are not dealing with a parallel universe where the Paschal full moon only fell on Saturday (500 AD - 600 AD). In this universe, there were multiple times where the Passover coincided with the Easter, right within that period. A fact which was well known to have occurred in the official chronology of history. And yet, Exiguus is recording mechanically the entries using only the Metonic cycle as his guide. As if nothing else was occurring.

As if this is not enough he assigns the date Saturday, March 24, 1,095 AD for the first Easter, something that could have been achieved only retroactively.

My question was, what was he checking against what? Your point was that in real life he 'would have noticed'. What is it that he would have noticed?

 

[sandokhan]

You already know the answer to your question, but it seems you do not want to find out what that response entails.

Everyone would have noticed/recorded a Paschal full moon on a Sunday, for those particular years listed earlier. If Exiguus would have not observed this directly, somebody else would have told him. Very easy to understand.

The universe which can be deduced from the Easter tables created by Exiguus, is one where the Paschal full moon only falls on Saturday, never on Sunday. A universe where the Metonic cycle suffices to calculate these dates. And yet the Easter and the Passover coincided multiple times: in this universe, those particular entries would have fully reflected the astronomical situation or reality. Moreover, the date Saturday March 24 1,095 AD could only have been calculated retroactively. Was not Exiguus trying to find out when the first Easter occurred? Yes he was. Why then would he assign March 24, 1,095 AD for the first Easter, unless he was computing it retroactively?

 

[Grosseteste]

Everyone would have noticed/recorded a Paschal full moon on a Sunday, for those particular years listed earlier. If Exiguus would have not observed this directly, somebody else would have told him. Very easy to understand.

I'm still not sure I understand you. Let's take year 522, when the true full moon occurred on 28 March, a Monday, but D thought the full moon was actually on 27 March, a Sunday. He recorded the date of Easter as 3 April, the Sunday after. That agrees with the rules for Easter. What's the problem.

[EDIT] There was a similar situation in 526 and 546, probably other dates.

 

[sandokhan]

You are not addressing any of the issues that were raised here.

Whoever came up with the date March 24, 1,095 AD, was trying to look into the past, and certainly not trying to predict the first Easter.

Exiguus lives in a universe where the Paschal full moon only occurs on Saturday. He uses the Metonic cycle mechanically, without making the necessary corrections for the years listed. No one else seems to care. There is no research into understanding why some of the Passover dates fall on a Sunday.

I have proven to you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the biography attributed to Dionysius Exiguus was cooked up much later in time.

Now, we have another huge problem: the extension of the Easter cycle by Beda Venerabilis (Bede). We are told that he had extended the calculation of the Easter up to 1,253 AD. Why then did not Bede see immediately that Exiguus had already predicted that the First Easter was going to occur on Saturday, March 24, 1,095 AD?

 

[Grosseteste]

Exiguus lives in a universe where the Paschal full moon only occurs on Saturday.

Not correct. I already explained above why this statement is wrong.

 

[sandokhan]

You did not address any of the issues. Your previous statement even proves my points more readily. If the true full moon occurred on 28 March, a Monday, but Exiguus thought the full moon was actually on 27 March, a Sunday, you have huge problem, yet again. Why didn't Exiguus record the CORRECT DATE as an entry for his Easter Tables? Each and every time there is a discrepancy, Exiguus records, always, the wrong date.

You are dodging what we are discussing here in this thread. Whoever came up with the date March 24, 1,095 AD, was trying to look into the past, and certainly not trying to predict the first Easter.

The universe which can be deduced from the Easter tables created by Exiguus, is one where the Paschal full moon only falls on Saturday, never on Sunday. A universe where the Metonic cycle suffices to calculate these dates. And yet the Easter and the Passover coincided multiple times: in this universe, those particular entries would have fully reflected the astronomical situation or reality. Moreover, the date Saturday March 24 1,095 AD could only have been calculated retroactively. Was not Exiguus trying to find out when the first Easter occurred? Yes he was. Why then would he assign March 24, 1,095 AD for the first Easter, unless he was computing it retroactively?

 

[Grosseteste]

If the true full moon occurred on 28 March, a Monday, but Exiguus thought the full moon was actually on 27 March, a Sunday, you have huge problem, yet again. Why didn't Exiguus record the CORRECT DATE as an entry for his Easter Tables?

A very simple answer: at that period (6th century AD) it was not possible to determine the date of the full moon with any accuracy. On 27 March the moon was still 99.8% illuminated.

I've made this point a few times, that's enough.

 

[sandokhan]

It was determined very well in all of the previous centuries, with no problems at all. How else could the Church have possibly known that the Passover had fallen on a Sunday, and not Saturday? Obviously, those canons were written down because everyone knew that from time to time the Passover fell on Sunday.

Again, you are not addressing the main points: why did Exiguus, always, record the wrong dates? Why did he leave the wrong dates in his Easter tables, and no one else had a word to say about it, even though it was very obvious that the Passover had occurred on a Sunday? The Metonic cycle was not working for the dates where the Passover coincided with the Easter, yet Exiguus keeps on using it, as if nothing happened at all. He fails to record the correct dates. Are you saying that Exiguus was trying to predict the First Easter in March 24, 1,095 AD? You retroactively try to find out the date of the First Easter, certainly not in any case to predict it!

 

[Grosseteste]

Again, you are not addressing the main points: why did Exiguus, always, record the wrong dates? [i.e. dates of full moon]

He didn't always record the wrong date. Sometimes he gets it right, sometimes he gets a day too late, sometimes a day too early. And he always gets the date of Easter right, by my calculation.

And I have already addressed 'the main point' twice above: Exiguus got the dates wrong because there was no astronomical equipment to determine this accurately. It's a very simple explanation, and to be preferred to your 'explanation' that involves re-writing all of history, including the history of my own house, apparently.

I think this is the main difference between us. I have offered a simple explanation (Exiguus could not determine the time of full moon accurately, although he was close), you have offered a very complex and improbable one (all of history is wrong).

That is all.

even though it was very obvious that the Passover had occurred on a Sunday

You persistently confuse Passover, which is a religious event, and the date of the full moon. We don't know when the Passover event occurred on those dates. We do know when the full moon occurred, because we have astronomical software.

 

[sandokhan]

You are playing word games with me. Exiguus ALWAYS records the wrong dates, when the Passover coincides with the Easter. Always. You are trying to dodge the issue and mix together all of the dates at once.

A true astronomer would have recorded the CORRECT dates, and try to find out what is going on. No one else would have accepted Dionysius' Easter tables if they had contained some very wrong dates. It is absolutely impossible for Exiguus to have left the wrong dates for the cases where the Passover coincided with the Easter.

Furthermore, you are not addressing the second issue: why did Exiguus assign the date Saturday, March 24, 1,095 AD for the First Easter? You think he was trying to predict it? You retroactively try to find out the date of the First Easter, certainly not in any case to predict it!

You persistently confuse Passover, which is a religious event, and the date of the full moon.

I am not confusing anything at all, you are. The Paschal moon occurrs together with the Passover.

 

[Grosseteste]

You are playing word games with me. Exiguus ALWAYS records the wrong dates, when the Passover coincides with the Easter. Always.

I can find three dates (21 Mar 566, 18 April 577, 22 Mar 593) when Dionysius' date for full moon agrees with astronomical date. On all these occasions, he pushes Easter to the Sunday after the full moon, as was customary.

I am not confusing anything at all, you are. The Paschal moon occurrs together with the Passover.

Evidence for that? Passover did not have to occur on a Sunday. We simply do not know very much about the rules used for Passover in the first millennium. See Calendar and Community: A History of the Jewish Calendar, 2nd Century BCE to 10th Century CE by Sacha Stern, probably the foremost expert on the subject. Prof Sacha Stern