- Joined
- Dec 20, 2021
- Messages
- 518
- Reaction score
- 950
Exactly. If we take all characters in his-story similar to Jesus or dee, how long will that list be?
D
Deleted member 1432
Guest
Well, if it's all just fictitious there's no 'history' to investigate and we can all just go home.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2021
- Messages
- 518
- Reaction score
- 950
Maybe, maybe not. It would be interesting to compile said characters to see similarities, then we leave the info to be analysed by everyone and finally we try to puty all the pieces together
D
Deleted member 1432
Guest
Perhaps you could do that in another thread.
With no disrespect whatsoever meant to Dr. Dee and his accomplishments, he was a product of his times and his heritage, just as we all are to some degree (no pun intended on his name). He was of Welsh origin, and lived during the Welsh Tudor era for practically all of his life, so naturally he promoted a Welsh agenda for world empire, just as some Russians promote Russia for the same thing, as noted on this website in various threads, so I get it. The eldest son of Dr. Dee, Arthur (guess who he was named for) , actually was a physician to Tsar Michael I of Russia at one time. Dee himself claimed royal Welsh descent from 9th century Great King of Wales Rhodri Mawr, and spread the story that Welsh Prince Madog discovered America, besides asserting that Brutus of Britain and King Arthur had also conquered lands in America, in order to give their "heir", his Tudor Queen, Elizabeth I, a prior claim there. Dr. Dee was a real person. and also a Christian, so in a way he may have tried to model his life on Jesus, whether he actually regarded him as a "real person" or not.
FUN FACT - While trying to connect the various topics in this thread, I discovered that Philip II of Spain, said in this thread to have provided the Speculum to Dr. Dee, and who became the brother-in-law of the future Queen Elizabeth I, was also the godfather and namesake for the 3rd Baron Philip Wharton, the great-great-grandfather of Philip, 1st Duke of Wharton, founder of the first Hellfire Club. The Speculum, as noted too in this thread, eventually became the property of the later Hellfire Club "guest" Horace Walpole.
FUN FACT - While trying to connect the various topics in this thread, I discovered that Philip II of Spain, said in this thread to have provided the Speculum to Dr. Dee, and who became the brother-in-law of the future Queen Elizabeth I, was also the godfather and namesake for the 3rd Baron Philip Wharton, the great-great-grandfather of Philip, 1st Duke of Wharton, founder of the first Hellfire Club. The Speculum, as noted too in this thread, eventually became the property of the later Hellfire Club "guest" Horace Walpole.
Last edited:
While searching for more continuity between these different Hellfire Clubs, according to the Wikipedia article on Francis Dashwood, "In 1732 Dashwood formed a dining club called the Society of Dilettanti with around 40 charter members (some of whom may have been members of Wharton's original club)". In his Wikipedia biography, Thomas Anson ((c. 1695 – 30 March 1773), a member of the Royal Society, is also mentioned as a founder of that Society of Dilettanti, who later commissioned the mysterious Shugborough inscription, carved on the 18th-century Shepherd's Monument in the grounds of Shugborough Hall in Staffordshire, England. Shugborough inscription - Wikipedia Of course, Dr. John Dee was also known for his mysterious ciphers.
According to the Geni website, from his eldest son Arthur (who had a recipe for the Philosopher's Stone), Dr. John Dee is the ancestor of certain members of the paleoanthropologist Leakey family, through his descendant, the mother of the biblical prophecy author, James Hatley Frere.
James Hatley Frere - Wikipedia
Mary Leakey - Wikipedia
Richard Leakey - Wikipedia
Louise Leakey - Wikipedia
Last edited:
The uncle of the first Hellfire Club founder, Philip Wharton, 1st Duke of Wharton, was Goodwin Wharton (1653-1704), who, like Dr. John Dee, was interested in alchemy, alleged that he spoke with angels, besides fairies, and even God! Goodwin Wharton, King of Fairyland
Also like Dee, Goodwin Wharton had an "associate", Mary Parish, and a former Postmaster General financial backer, John Wildman, just as Society of Dilettanti and later Hellfire Club founders Sir Francis Dashwood and and John Montagu, 4th Earl of Sandwich, were also Postmaster Generals, along with Hellfire Club "guest" Benjamin Franklin. Goodwin Wharton eventually became one of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty, and John Montagu served as First Lord of the Admiralty in his political career.
It appears that first Hellfire Club founder Philip Wharton and later Hellfire Club founder John Montagu were 4th cousins, with a common descent from Henry Clifford (1517-1570), 2nd Earl of Cumberland. This would make Goodwin Wharton and John Montagu kin also. In addition, they all appear to descend from the natural "Carey" children proposed as the actual children of King Henry VIII, thus making them closely related to the Welsh Tudor dynasty (and so by marriage to Philip II of Spain, alleged provider of the Speculum to John Dee and godfather/namesake to Wharton ancestor, 3rd Baron Philip Wharton), and descended from all of the royal/legendary Welsh ancestry that John Dee claimed for Queen Elizabeth I and himself.
If Queen Elizabeth I was actually the mother of Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford, and Sir Francis Bacon, both mentioned as actual authors of Shakespeare's plays, and as students of John Dee (with Bacon involved in founding the Rosicrucians, and with Freemasonry), then the Whartons and John Montagu were cousins to them besides. Francis Dashwood, also a founder of the later Hellfire Club, has a connection too, as he was "officially" the first cousin, four times removed of Edward de Vere through his mother, Mary Fane. From his mother besides, Francis Dashwood was the third cousin of Dorothy Fane, the wife of his Hellfire Club co-founder John Montagu, and a direct descendant of Richard Plantagenet, the great-grandfather of King Henry VIII, father of Queen Elizabeth I, making him related to the Tudors amongst other lines of Plantagenet ancestry.
Intriguing that Horace has itemized several portraits of Sir Kenelm Digby and his wife "lady Digby" (the former Venetia Stanley) in his home, along with her mother Lucy Percy, the daughter of beheaded traitor Thomas Percy (below). Kenelm Digby was a highly reputed natural philosopher, astrologer, and founding member of the Royal Society, whose father Everard was executed for his role in the Gunpowder Plot, which involved yet another Thomas Percy.
Also like Dee, Goodwin Wharton had an "associate", Mary Parish, and a former Postmaster General financial backer, John Wildman, just as Society of Dilettanti and later Hellfire Club founders Sir Francis Dashwood and and John Montagu, 4th Earl of Sandwich, were also Postmaster Generals, along with Hellfire Club "guest" Benjamin Franklin. Goodwin Wharton eventually became one of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty, and John Montagu served as First Lord of the Admiralty in his political career.
It appears that first Hellfire Club founder Philip Wharton and later Hellfire Club founder John Montagu were 4th cousins, with a common descent from Henry Clifford (1517-1570), 2nd Earl of Cumberland. This would make Goodwin Wharton and John Montagu kin also. In addition, they all appear to descend from the natural "Carey" children proposed as the actual children of King Henry VIII, thus making them closely related to the Welsh Tudor dynasty (and so by marriage to Philip II of Spain, alleged provider of the Speculum to John Dee and godfather/namesake to Wharton ancestor, 3rd Baron Philip Wharton), and descended from all of the royal/legendary Welsh ancestry that John Dee claimed for Queen Elizabeth I and himself.
If Queen Elizabeth I was actually the mother of Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford, and Sir Francis Bacon, both mentioned as actual authors of Shakespeare's plays, and as students of John Dee (with Bacon involved in founding the Rosicrucians, and with Freemasonry), then the Whartons and John Montagu were cousins to them besides. Francis Dashwood, also a founder of the later Hellfire Club, has a connection too, as he was "officially" the first cousin, four times removed of Edward de Vere through his mother, Mary Fane. From his mother besides, Francis Dashwood was the third cousin of Dorothy Fane, the wife of his Hellfire Club co-founder John Montagu, and a direct descendant of Richard Plantagenet, the great-grandfather of King Henry VIII, father of Queen Elizabeth I, making him related to the Tudors amongst other lines of Plantagenet ancestry.
His father, Prime Minister Robert Walpole, actually purchased interior items from the estate of the destitute first Hellfire Club founder, Philip Wharton, Duke of Wharton. I wonder if Horace inherited some of those for his estate and/or Hellfire Club?
Intriguing that Horace has itemized several portraits of Sir Kenelm Digby and his wife "lady Digby" (the former Venetia Stanley) in his home, along with her mother Lucy Percy, the daughter of beheaded traitor Thomas Percy (below). Kenelm Digby was a highly reputed natural philosopher, astrologer, and founding member of the Royal Society, whose father Everard was executed for his role in the Gunpowder Plot, which involved yet another Thomas Percy.
Through his mother, Catherine Shorter, Horace Walpole is another Hellfire Club member with a possible descent from King Henry VIII. Henry VIII, aside from his royal children, was also the granduncle by marriage, through his first wife Catherine of Aragon, of Speculum owner and occultist Philip II, as well as being his father-in-law through his daughter Queen Mary.
Philip II eventually became the brother-in-law of his own nephew, the occultist Holy Roman Emperor Rudolf II, whom John Dee later sought patronage from. Their great-great-great-grandson and great-great-great-grandnephew, respectively, the future Holy Roman Emperor Francis I, in 1731 was initiated into freemasonry (Grand Lodge of England). During a subsequent visit to England, Francis was made a Master Mason at another specially convened lodge at Houghton Hall, the Norfolk estate of British Prime Minister Robert Walpole, father of Hellfire Club "guest" and Speculum owner Horace Walpole.
Last edited:
According to Michelle Gibson, "Muurish/Moorish-American Master Adepts in the present day are wisdom-keepers of ancient sacred Kemetic Mysteries and Knowledge about all Creation. They are living practitioners of Egyptian Yoga, known as Uacheta Smai Tawi, or Wadjet Yoga; and Medu Neter, the language of the Egyptian Hieroglyphs."
Going by certain fabulous male line pedigrees of the royal Tudor and Habsburg families (and thus including John Dee's claimed royal Welsh ancestry and also King Philip II of Spain, who allegedly gave the Speculum to him), they would descend from Hercules Lybius (North African origin), the son of Osiris (legendary first Pharaoh Mizraim), the son of Ham (allotted Africa by his father Noah). Did empire building (both British and Habsburg) corrupt the "honourable something" that was originally "Moorish Science"?
D
Deleted member 1432
Guest
and she also thinks the Philadelphia Experiment was a real event that caused some kind of history time-loop.
No. What we know as Egypt today was only given that name fairly recently.
PS: My brother, Felix, has asked me to pass on his thanks for your repeated confirmations of statements from his OP.
Really? My Father's much older Stepbrother was the Naval Supply Corps Commander at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard during WW2. I do beg your pardon, what year is this I'm in now?
Seriously, I honestly don't know that much about Michelle Gibson (I found a link for her on another thread that doesn't work), but mentioned her because Felix had done so in this thread, with the statement "Michelle Gibson has done a great deal of work to show how such structures are aligned to a worldwide grid based upon the Flower of Life symbol." So I imagined perhaps Felix thought that there was some credibility to her?I am not sure that I follow you. Doesn't "Moorish Science" supposedly predate the naming of Egypt, although it is believed to have taken root there in ancient times? Speaking of the Philadelphia Experiment, not that far across the Delaware River from it, in New Jersey, is what was Ong's Hat, where another secret history story took place, starting with a "Wali Ford" who supposedly started a "Moorish Science" ashram there in 1978, with eventual alternate dimensional travel taking place at that location. How Do You Start a Conspiracy Theory?
Please tell him that I am DEE-lighted to hear that!
Below, the Pedigree which Dr. John Dee made, tracing his descent from the mythical times of King Arthur, and showing Queen Elizabeth, through her Welsh ancestry, as related to the same source, is illuminated with coats of arms and a small coloured profile portrait of “John Dee, philosophus,” in a cap and furred gown. He here describes his grandfather, Bedo Dee, as a soldier fighting under the Emperor Maximilian I., in 1512; his father, Rowland Dee, armiger, as gentleman sewer to King Henry VIII.; and himself as a philosopher.
British Library
Dr. John Dee on the Geni genealogical site - shows his male line ancestry back to the historical Great King of Wales Rhodri Mawr, and from there to the unhistorical Beli Mawr "The Great" and Anna, cousin of the Virgin Mary. This will lead back in other Welsh pedigrees to the mythical Brutus the Trojan, and then from the Trojans, as I have mentioned before, in selective pedigrees to Hercules Lybius (North African origin), the son of Osiris (legendary first Pharaoh Mizraim), the son of Ham (allotted Africa by his father Noah). Noah, of course, descends from Adam and Eve.
Habsburg Emperor Maximilian I, whom Dr. John Dee's grandfather, Bedo Dee, fought for, was the great-grandfather of Philip II of Spain, who supposedly gave John Dee the Speculum.
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 1432
Guest
That was some years ago. He knows better now.
But where? Where was the Egypt of ancient times? Was it anywhere within the influence of the Moors?
So, did the Moors build all the megalithic structures that are present everywhere? I know that in Spain, because the word "Moros" simply means 'stranger' or 'foreigner', they are being accredited as the constructors of all the Bronze Age Ringforts in Northern Spain in areas where they never had any presence or influence whatsoever. I smell an agenda...
In Dee's time these things were not so mythical. His claim to a 'British Empire' was based upon original documents that had already vanished by the 16th century and others that disappeared soon after his death.
King Arthur in Hyperborea & The Arctic Mud Flood Cataclysm.
According to some of these "Moorish Science" offshoots in America, the Moors were responsible for ancient civilizations, hence MOORocco in North Africa, and of course AMOORica. As far as I can tell (and I am certainly no expert on this) from their teachings (or "agenda", as you might call it), Egypt was always in "Egypt", but their mystery schools originally derived from the Moors. However, historically speaking, "In Libya there remained a solitary oracle of Amun in the Libyan Desert at the oasis of Siwa. The worship of Ammon was introduced into Greece at an early period, probably through the medium of the Greek colony in Cyrene, which must have formed a connection with the great oracle of Ammon in the Oasis soon after its establishment. Iarbas, a mythological king of Libya (this character is possibly based on a historical king of Numidia), was also considered a son of Hammon. When Alexander the Great advanced on Egypt in later 332 BC, he was regarded as a liberator. He was pronounced son of Amun at this oracle, thus conquering Egypt without a fight. Henceforth, Alexander often referred to Zeus-Ammon as his true father, and after his death, currency depicted him adorned with the Horns of Ammon as a symbol of his divinity." Amun - Wikipedia
Ancient "Libya" was a home of the very ancient indigenous North African "Berber" (Amazigh) people, later referred to by Europeans as "Moors". Some of these Libyans actually formed Egyptian Pharaonic dynasties over time. I have even read that the predynastic rulers of Egypt were actually Berber, and that the ancient Berbers claimed that they originated from the lost continent of Atlantis (Atlantic Ocean and Atlas Mountains proximity to MOORocco).
Just for fun, through my Father's Mother I have a descent from Welsh immigrant Cadwalader Evans (1664-1745), and, from memory, I believe one of his family brought an Evans pedigree to America, etched on leather to preserve it, that traces their male line back to Great King of Wales Rhodri Mawr in the 9th century, just like Dr. Dee. You have mentioned that you are English, would you and Felix have some sort of Welsh royal line like that, that piqued your interest in Dr. Dee/King Arthur research?
Interesting, the wrong pole, but the first thing I thought of was "AnARTHURica"!
Much later, wasn't Hyperborea somehow merged with "Thule" as the home of the "Aryan Master Race"?From memory, I seem to recall that Geoffrey of Monmouth had King Arthur just about to claim the Roman Empire, when he had to return to England because of Mordred's rebellion?
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 1432
Guest
That's very English - 'Moor', In Spanish it's Moro, as in Morocco, Armorica, but as I explained, it means 'foreign', like the Scottish 'sassenach' means outlander, or foreigner. Therefore, to claim that something in America was built by Moors (or Moros - especially in South America,) is to say that it was built by foreigners or 'people other than us'.
The Amun / Ammon / Aten thing is a whole different kettle of fish... Tutankhamen The Ramones, Akehnaten etc...
Well, as you come to mention it, we are descended from Emrys Bendragon of Barri Island, Wales, through our mother's second cousin's, maiden aunt's, neighbour's window cleaner.
Felix and I have made an attempt to tackle the subject of King Arthur's identity and deeds in the process of writing this:
A Quest for the Lost Realm of Faërie
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2021
- Messages
- 518
- Reaction score
- 950
Is there any original document about this pedigree connection to this 9th cebtury king or we're dealing with later copies because the original is nowhere to be found?
In Post #30 I provided the pedigree that Dr. John Dee (1527-1608) created for his royal Welsh descent, and you can see how it has been preserved in the British Library. British Library. Regarding earlier copies, as Will Scarlet said in Post #31, "In Dee's time these things were not so mythical. His claim to a 'British Empire' was based upon original documents that had already vanished by the 16th century and others that disappeared soon after his death." I imagine that the original pedigree documents have disappeared by now also. Just to give you an idea of how it might work, here is a copy of a royal Welsh pedigree starting with Bell Mawr, going down in the male line through Rhodri Mawr, Great King of all Wales in the 9th century (Generation No. 37), to the Pugh family. Generation No. 62 shows Evan Robert Lewis, whose son Evan was the father of my immigrant ancestor Cadwalader Evans (1664-1745). Thus, Cadwalader was a cousin of the Pughs. http://www.orderofthemysticalrose.org/Library/Pedigree.pdf
Generation No. 47, RHY-GRYD, was also the father, by his wife Ellyw verch Trahaearn, of Philip ap Rhys-Gryd, the male line ancestor of Dr. John Dee.
Sorry, Will, he's not in my and Dr. Dee's royal Welsh pedigree, sounds like a lot of HOGwa(rt)sh to me! Of course, "Fawkes" is real.
Last edited:
So in your opinion the ancient mythical British Kings going back to Brutus the Trojan were real? I had stated before you made that comment that Dr. Dee was
So Dr. Dee's royal Welsh pedigree (and thus my connection to it) is correct then, and was not fulfilling his own personally created "agenda" for a British Empire, as you "smell" that these Moorish Science offshoots are, for claiming that all ancient civilizations originated with the Moors?
"He knows better now" concerning Moorish Science also?
Last edited:
I should like to mention that George Washington, the first President of the United States, inaugurated in New YORK City, the capital of the United States at that time, was indeed a Freemason, as was the patrician New Yorker, Franklin D. Roosevelt, elected to an unprecedented four terms as President, who oversaw the United States become the leading world power during World War II . "Old" York "City", in England, is also where North African Roman Emperor Septimius Severus ruled the Roman Empire from in the last years of his life, seven centuries before York became, traditionally, the first Grand Lodge in England. Could the "Moorish Science", that Felix Noille mentioned, been spread to York through Emperor Severus and/or his soldiers, as he was expanding the Roman Empire in Britain, and been a basis for Freemasonry, which wound up as a "corruption" of it? Also note that the Roman Emperor Constantius Chlorus later campaigned and ended his life in York, like Emperor Severus, and his son Constantine the Great was acclaimed as Emperor there, who approved the toleration of Christianity, which was also eventually exported to the American colonies, along with Freemasonry. Is there any connection between "Old" York / "New" York, "Empire", and organizations with redeeming knowledge, or is this all just a coincidence?
I just found this, is that what you are talking about, looks like more "Moorish Science" to me. ??? The Washitaw Moors
I'd like to see evidence that two Roman emperors lived in York.
As an aside - York is still the second most important church centre in England after Canterbury. Most people don't know that Glastonbury Abbey was the third most important until the reformation. My take on this is that they had preserved the Magdalene line in Glastonbury and possibly still had women priests there. The Abbey is built on the site of a pair of springs, one white and one red, which represented the masculine and feminine forces and was an important pre-Christian site. So the abbey was destroyed and the Patriarchy established. My opinion.
D
Deleted member 1432
Guest
Neither Felix nor I are stating anything as being a fact or true, this is all speculation. Dee's ideas concerning the re-establishment of some kind of empire or kingdom were not his own personal creation:
'“Note the Colonies sent by King Arthur into all the north Islands and by name into Grocland, which I yet suppose to be the same which is otherwise anciently known as Groenland [i.e., Greenland] and of that you had the word before owt of the boke De Priscus Anglorum Legibus” (Dee assumes that Grocland is Greenland based soley upon the shared ‘Gr’. However, on Mercator's globe Grocland lies west of Greenland and may be a representation of the Arctic Baffin Island.)
The source he refers to was William Lambarde's Archaionomia sive de Priscus Anglorum Legibus libri (1568), which Dee had a copy of in his famous library. This same source was also known to Richard Hakluyt, another proponent of an Arthurian Atlantic and Arctic empire, who would translate it later in his ‘Principal Nauigations’ (1599):
“Arthur which was sometimes the most renowned king of the Britains, was a mightie, and valiant man, and a famous warriour. This kingdome was too litle for him, & his minde was not contented with it. He therefore valiantly subdued all Scantia, which is now called Norway, and all the Islands beyond Norway, to wit, Island [i.e., Iceland] and Greenland, which are apperteining vnto Norway, Sweueland, Ireland, Gotland, Denmarke, Semeland, Windland [Latin text, Winlandiam], Curland, Roe, Femeland [i.e., Finland], Wireland, Flanders, Cherilland, Lapland, and all the other lands & Islands of the East sea, euen vnto Russia* (in which Lapland he placed the Easterly bounds of his Brittish Empire) and many other Islands beyond Norway, euen vnder the North pole, which are appendances of Scantia, now called Norway.”
William Lambarde himself had a very clear source for the text he gave in his Priscus Anglorum Legibus - a manuscript of the Leges Edwardi Confessoris that contained an Arthurian section taken from the Leges Anglorum Londoniis Collectae, from c. 1210. (I hope you’re following this because I’m not sure I do…) The tradition of Arthur as an Arctic conqueror must certainly go back to at least the very early thirteenth century.'
(The above is from the King Arthur in Hyperborea thread linked earlier.)
His ideas and theories are constantly changing and evolving - even devolving sometimes. Neither he nor I have a clear opinion regarding Moorish Science... or much else either if truth be told.
Well, originally it was New Amsterdam, the capital of New Netherlands - a colony of Dutch / Flemish people. The story goes that when the English took it over in 1664 they named it after The Duke of York, the future James II & VI of England & Scotland. The so-called York Rite version of freemasonry was / is very popular in America, who knows if that was named after the Grand Lodge at York or the Duke? The heretical masonic York Legend claims a descent from Prince Edwin, as I'm sure you're aware.
Yes and No.
With regard to that particular article, I don't really find the "Mu'ur" - Moor connection convincing. Ur was a Sumerian city in Mesopotamia so it's just as likely that " Mu'ur" could refer to that, but not as convenient for the authors bias. The word "Moor" has meant different things to different people at different times. These days it seems to be a label for black muslims in general.What is interesting is the claim that they "were originally a group of priests from the Egypt of the west (Old Egypt.)" Again, the author's bias interprets this as meaning Egypt in America. I'm not saying he's wrong, just that I'm not convinced, but it shows that there is something 'afoot'.
Homer used the name Aegyptus (Aigyptos) at a time when the natives of that area of Africa called it Hwt-ka-Ptah. Before that they called it Kemet (Kermit), or simply Kmt. Today they call it Misr. They never called their own land Egypt or Aegyptus, so why do we assume that the place referred to in Homer's Odyssey was ever anything to do with Misr, Hwt-ka-Ptah, Kermit or even Miss Piggy? Because we've been sold another lie?
This is a huge subject and one that involves many issues, such as where was Troy really? Who were the Achaens and where did they live (ditto for the Trojans)? Personally, I am still largely in the dark about most of it and simply exploring possibilities. However, I am quite convinced that there is something to be discovered.
The situation is very similar to those cheesy movies where the authorities are searching for the culprit of some misdemeanor, let's call him Fred Bloggs, and they confront a crowd demanding to know "Who is Fred Bloggs?" The culprit says "I am," then someone else says "No, it's me!" Then someone else says the same and so on and so on. And so it is with Ancient history - the Holy Land is in Palestine, no, France, no Africa, no California, no the Isle of Skye, etc. etc. It's all a smoke-screen deliberately put there to make it as difficult as possible to see the truth.
Similar threads
