Dr. John Dee, Hellfire, Antiquitech, Great Fires and Floods.

[Fawkes]

I'd like to see evidence that two Roman emperors lived in York.

Eboracum - Wikipedia

Neither Felix nor I are stating anything as being a fact or true, this is all speculation.

His ideas and theories are constantly changing and evolving - even devolving sometimes. Neither he nor I have a clear opinion regarding Moorish Science... or much else either if truth be told.

That makes three of us! At least we can agree to disagree, and perhaps learn something from each other in the process.

What is interesting is the claim that they "were originally a group of priests from the Egypt of the west (Old Egypt.)"

I found that intriguing also, because, from memory, the "AMORC" American Rosicrucian organization believed that those priests were the founders of the mystery schools that the Pharaohs were admitted to (at least in North African Egypt), and much later in time those mystery schools became the Rosicrucian Order (that's a no-brainer, I guess, when you consider the "source").
Having not known about her before, I have been researching Michelle Gibson, and now have a better understanding of, if not total agreement with, some of the beliefs and postings on this site, such as the mudslides, time reset, and the Great Exhibition of 1851. Her take on the "Moors" appears to be that "the Washitaw Empire in north America, Tartaria in Asia, Barbaria in North Africa, the Mughal Empire in present-day Bangladesh, India, and Pakistan, among others, were empires within the advanced Moorish Civilization, with roots in ancient Mu, and that it was a continuous civilization through Atlantis up until relatively recently. Moorish Science and Master Masons are behind all of the sacred geometry applications in architecture and alignments with heaven and earth worldwide. Moorish Masonry has 360-degrees, and Freemasonry has 33-degrees." These "Moors" seem to be much more inclusive than the "Moors" of "Moorish Science", so I was deliberating if Felix actually meant their "freemasonry", instead of that of "Moorish Science", as "something that was once honourable". Perhaps the two synthesize in a way that I am not aware of yet, though.
I could believe in the following part of her teaching, if not in fact, but as an ideal,
"The Ancient Advanced Civilization was a a civilization where each being knew it was sovereign, and yet an integral part of the whole collective. It was all about aligning Heaven and Earth in the fullest expression of Human Potential that there has ever been here on Earth. Higher even than Atlantis and Lemuria were reputed to be. Pure Human Genius…in Group/Unity Consciousness.
Muurish/Moorish-American Master Adepts in the present day are wisdom-keepers of ancient sacred Kemetic Mysteries and Knowledge about all Creation. They are living practitioners of Egyptian Yoga, known as Uacheta Smai Tawi, or Wadjet Yoga; and Medu Neter, the language of the Egyptian Hieroglyphs." That last sentence is quite a tongue twister for me, though, and I speak to you not with "forked tongue"!
I wonder if Michelle Gibson was ever a member of this group, it seems tailor-made for her.

Yes and No.

I am beginning to think that you are one of those equivocating Jesuit Coadjutors trying to ensnare me! (lol)

The situation is very similar to those cheesy movies where the authorities are searching for the culprit of some misdemeanor, let's call him Fred Bloggs, and they confront a crowd demanding to know "Who is Fred Bloggs?" The culprit says "I am," then someone else says "No, it's me!" Then someone else says the same and so on and so on.

This is what you immediately made me think of -

The so-called York Rite version of freemasonry was / is very popular in America, who knows if that was named after the Grand Lodge at York or the Duke?

"The York Rite, sometimes referred to as the American Rite, since it is named for, but not practiced in York" York Rite - Wikipedia

Dee's ideas concerning the re-establishment of some kind of empire or kingdom were not his own personal creation:

Yes, I had read that recommended thread, and never knew those stories about King Arthur before, but what I meant is that it was Dee's own personal AGENDA to "sell" that Arthurian history to Queen Elizabeth, who had Welsh ancestry like him, in order to create (or recreate?) the British Empire. That being said, as I stated at the beginning of my postings on this thread, "With no disrespect whatsoever meant to Dr. Dee and his accomplishments, he was a product of his times and his heritage, just as we all are to some degree (no pun intended on his name). He was of Welsh origin, and lived during the Welsh Tudor era for practically all of his life, so naturally he promoted a Welsh agenda for world empire, just as some Russians promote Russia for the same thing, as noted on this website in various threads, so I get it." Perhaps I am subconsciously promoting the "American Moors" as my "agenda", because I myself am American!

 

[Quiahuitl]

Eboracum - Wikipedia

Thanks

I'm fascinated by the theory that a thousand years have been added into the timeline. I had already heard long ago that Caractacus was a Welsh king (with a Welsh name like Ceridwyn) at the same time as being well known in Rome. It seems to me a lot of characters might have had a Roman name and a local name.

So I'm wondering if what we now call the crusades was just soldiers being drafted from England to go and fight for the Roman Empire in the Middle East? All occurring from what we now call 1100 - 1300 (approx) but really I100 to I300 then the Roman empire left England around 400AD and so no more English soldiers were drafted?

 

[Fawkes]

Michelle Gibson has done a great deal of work to show how such structures are aligned to a worldwide grid based upon the Flower of Life symbol.

From reading her website, it appears that Michelle Gibson got those Flower of Life grid ideas from "Drunvalo Melchizedek" (not his real name), a controversial New Age teacher - Drunvalo Melchizedek - Wikipedia

 

[Deleted member 1432]

All occurring from what we now call 1100 - 1300 (approx) but really I100 to I300 then the Roman empire left England around 400AD and so no more English soldiers were drafted?

This doesn't make sense, I think you've mistyped the numbers somehow. What you're talking about doesn't have any relevance to this thread. I realise that it has gone a bit off-topic lately. but what you are now discussing is way too far off. There are plenty of other threads on SH that deal with this subject, or try starting your own maybe.

At least we can agree to disagree,

about what?

 

[Fawkes]

about what?

About anything, generally, or about this thread topic, specifically.

 

[Deleted member 1432]

These "Moors" seem to be much more inclusive than the "Moors" of "Moorish Science", so I was deliberating if Felix actually meant their "freemasonry", instead of that of "Moorish Science", as "something that was once honourable".

There's an updated version of this thread on our website that Felix wrote last autumn-ish. It doesn't mention Michelle Gibson and only mentions Moorish Science as being but one theory as to the origins of freemasonry and he goes on to highlight 'The York Legend' as another theory (as he does in this original version.)

Perhaps if you want to discuss the 'American Moors' it would be better if you start another thread, that way you might get an audience that actually has some interest in it, because here it's way off topic. It would probably fit in nicely with the 'Holy Land is California' and the 'Rome is New York' threads as it would no doubt appeal to the same crowd.

 

[Fawkes]

It would seem that we have a trail that leads from Dee and Kelley in the 16th century to Dashwood’s Hellfire Club in the 18th century (plus maybe the earlier Dublin club) and then on to Aleister Crowley in the 20th.

Then we have Aleister Crowley as supposedly being the actual father of Barbara (Pierce) Bush, the husband of President George Herbert Walker Bush (also a former CIA Director), and the mother of President George W. Bush, both Skull and Bone members, involving more secret and perhaps sinister shenanigans, not to mention being at the Bohemian Grove later on.

 

[Fawkes]

There's an updated version of this thread on our website that Felix wrote last autumn-ish.

I saw there that apparently Bavarian Illuminati founder Adam Weishaupt was also very interested in Dee's work. Weishaupt was also a German Freemason, using it for his own purposes to recruit members for the Illuminati, by presenting it as pure Masonry, along with his Illuminati (and also fellow Freemason) associate Adolph Freiherr Knigge, who organized the ritual structure. If that wild story of Weishaupt substituting for President George Washington, an American Freemason, has any credence, could this be an example of a more "twisted, evil Freemasonry" taking over America via the Illuminati? The later President Thomas Jefferson, a founder of the "Republican" (now Democratic) party that was politically in opposition to the Federalist party of Washington, sympathized with Weishaupt and the purpose of his Illuminati. An example of "divide and conquer"?

I also read that "John Dee has also been associated with the baffling Voynich manuscript". Dee sold it to Emperor Rudolf II, giving him yet another Habsburg association. This work has been credited to the 13th century philosopher, scientist, alchemist, and "wizard" Roger Bacon, who in turn was almost certainly influenced by English statesman, scholastic philosopher, theologian, scientist and Bishop of Lincoln Robert Grosseteste. A letter from Gerald of Wales, archdeacon of Brecon and historian, extolling the skills of Grosseteste still survives. Maternally, a great-grandfather of Gerald of Wales was the last King of South Wales, Rhys ap Tewdwr, the male line ancestor of Doctor John Dee! "Six degrees of separation" to another royal Welsh connection.
Of course there is no evidence yet that Roger Bacon, whose writings John Dee collected in his library, and Francis Bacon, pupil of John Dee, were related (though I would not be surprised at that), but their accomplishments certainly were! AMORC, the American Rosicrucian organization, actually claims that Roger Bacon was a "Rosicrucian" (actually, proto-Rosicrucian would be a more accurate description), and that Francis Bacon was the "Imperator" of the Rosicrucian Order in his day.

 

[Deleted member 1432]

No doubt you're related to most of these people.

 

[Fawkes]

No doubt you're related to most of these people.

Just as no doubt you're related to the author of this thread and the Merry Men. Since you brought up the subject about my relatives, please Thank Felix for his Guy Fawkes reference, I'm glad he enjoyed the book about him! Here is my take on this illustration that Felix posted on his earlier thread here, and also on his updated site- Dr. Dee was actually the secret personal physician of Guy Fawkes/King James I (perhaps Dee even helped him change identities), just as his son Arthur Dee was the personal physician to the son of King James I, King Charles I, see how it runs in the family? As for the "resurrected" Kelley, he must have actually escaped his Continental prison and become a "Talbot" again in England, thus "dying" as Kelley to the outside world.

The closest royal connection for Dr. Dee that I can find (at least in his own mind) was whom he called his "cosen", Blanche Parry, who attended to Queen Elizabeth I from the time she was born, when Dee was only 6! Blanche later became the Godmother to Dee's oldest son Arthur. Her biography and ancestry, with several source websites to check out- Blanche Parry (abt.1508-1590) | WikiTree FREE Family Tree

 

[Deleted member 1432]

Dr. Dee was actually the secret personal physician of Guy Fawkes/King James I

You have proof of this do you or is it another theory by an avant-garde experimental royal researcher? Dee died at 81 years old and yet we are expected to believe that he was still working as a physician and magically transforming James I into Guy Fawkes? Anyway, by what you said in the other thread, I thought you claimed it was James I's secret half brother who was Fawkes and to whom you are related?

As for the "resurrected" Kelley, he must have actually escaped his Continental prison and become a "Talbot" again in England, thus "dying" as Kelley to the outside world.

The documented sources put him in Prague at the time of his death around 1597-98, for which there are 2 different versions, neither of which include resurrection. Again, where is the evidence to show that the illustration from the 1841 'Historical Romance' above isn't also fictional?

Felix presented that illustration to 'illustrate' how myths and legends continued to be attached to Dee and Kelley long after their deaths and to therefore cast doubt upon the 'official' versions of their lives and adventures. He was (and still is) particularly bothered by the general accreditation to Dee of the Spanish Armada's defeat by the storm in the Channel whilst he was still abroad in Europe. This accreditation is also implied in Shakespeare's 'The Tempest'. This theme of defending the British Isles by the conjuring of storms has a tradition that goes back many centuries beyond even Dee's time.

Thank Felix for his Guy Fawkes reference, I'm glad he enjoyed the book about him!

Eh?

see how it runs in the family?

I'm beginning to see what runs in families... I'm sure if most people go back into their family trees far enough they will find that they are related to famous and infamous people and the further back they go the relationships increase exponentially until everyone is related to everyone else.

 

[Fawkes]

Felix presented that illustration to 'illustrate' how myths and legends continued to be attached to Dee and Kelley long after their deaths and to therefore cast doubt upon the 'official' versions of their lives and adventures.

I realize that, and was just offering my "take" on it, as I mentioned. You yourself mentioned that you engage in "speculation", that is what I was doing. No one else was involved, I was just adding to the novel with my interpretation. When I read some of the other threads on this site, my "speculation" actually seems pretty tame by comparison, but I realize now that it didn't fly with you. You could also say that myths and legends continued to be attached to King Arthur too, like his going to the North Pole. My take on that would be, did Merlin then change him into Santa Claus?

I thought you claimed it was James I's secret half brother who was Fawkes and to whom you are related?

That was updated, just as Felix updated this thread. Actually, I just wanted to see if you remembered my thread. Congratulations, you are a lucky winner!

Eh?

I meant I was glad Felix enjoyed that book he referred to that was written about Guy Fawkes, even though it appears to be a mixture of fact and fiction. Guy Fawkes (novel) - Wikipedia In it, Fawkes is supposed to have married a Viviana Radcliffe. To really entertain you, I should have said that this "marriage" made me related to Daniel Radcliffe (Harry Potter), a "wizard" like John Dee!

I'm sure if most people go back into their family trees far enough they will find that they are related to famous and infamous people and the further back they go the relationships increase exponentially until everyone is related to everyone else.

"Most people" can't get past their own grandparents in their family histories (that's why they copy Internet family trees without checking sources), and one would have to go back thousands of years to be "related to everyone else". In other words, it is "speculation" (there's that word again), but with nothing concrete to go on, as far as connecting specific ancestors to oneself, generation by generation, is concerned. Everybody can say that they are related to anybody "famous and infamous", it's the easy way out without taking risks, and not having to do the hard work of actually researching one's ancestors. I could say more about this, but it is "off topic", so I shall go back to my Dee research, which is the real reason that I am interested in his "relatives" (not my own), because I am trying to connect his associations to the families of the later Hellfire Club members, as it looked like Felix was trying to do.

The Hellfire Club. It began as the Order of the Knights of St Francis in 1746. The club’s motto was also “Fais ce que tu voudras” (“Do what thou wilt”), from Rabelais' fictional abbey at Thélème and one that would re-emerge in the 20th century as Aleister Crowley’s war-cry.

Crowley not only took that motto, but named his Abbey of Thelema after that fictional abbey of Rabelais'. Abbey of Thelema - Wikipedia

Rabelais, in turn, knew that "a character named "Thelemia" represents will or desire in the Hypnerotomachia Poliphili of the Dominican friar Francesco Colonna. The protagonist Poliphilo has two allegorical guides, Logistica (reason) and Thelemia (will or desire). When forced to choose, he chooses fulfillment of his sexual will over logic. Colonna's work was a great influence on the Franciscan friar Francois Rabelais, who in the 16th century, used Thélème, the French form of the word, as the name of a fictional abbey in his novels, Gargantua and Pantagruel. The only rule of this Abbey was "fay çe que vouldras" ("Fais ce que tu veux", or, "Do what thou wilt")." Thelema - Wikipedia
The ancestors of Francesco Colonna apparently did what they wanted, as "According to tradition, the Colonna family is a branch of the Counts of Tusculum — by Peter (1099–1151) son of Gregory III, called Peter "de Columna" from his property the Columna Castle in Colonna, in the Alban Hill. Further back, they trace their lineage past the Counts of Tusculum via Lombard and Italo-Roman nobles, merchants, and clergy through the Early Middle Ages — ultimately claiming origins from the Julio-Claudian dynasty and the gens Julia". Think of Caligula and Nero doing what they wilt! Colonna family - Wikipedia

Next, chronologically, after the time of Rabelais, the spirit Madimi, conjured up by Dee and Kelley, issued this command to them, "Behold you are become free. Do that which pleases you. Do even as you list". It was after this that Madimi told them to swap wives. You can "Look inside" to see that quote on page X of the Preface to the 2019 edition from- Amazon.com: The Secret History of the Hell-Fire Clubs: From Rabelais and John Dee to Anton LaVey and Timothy Leary: 9781591433484: Ashe, Geoffrey: Books

Then in the 18th century we have this motto used by the The Hellfire Club.

20th century - Used by Aleister Crowley in his teachings from "The Book of the Law".

 

[Fawkes]

"Do what thou wilt" in the Sixties, sex, drugs, devil worship accusations, and rock & roll, engineered by the Tavistock Institute to brainwash youth? What started all of this was "The British Invasion", perhaps a continuation of the Welsh Dr. John Dee's promulgation of "The British Empire", only instead of occurring during the reign of Queen Elizabeth I, this occurred under a Queen Elizabeth II? John Lennon, founder of The Beatles, was Welsh on his mother's side, and Brian Jones, founder of The Rolling Stones, was Welsh from both of his parents. Below, the picture of Aleister Crowley (second from upper left) on the album cover of "Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Clubs Band" from The Beatles -

The following images show The Rolling Stones’ single “Sympathy For The Devil” & their LP "Their Satanic Majesties Request ". With their devilish song references and alleged Hellfire Club style partying, The Rolling Stones were favorites of the "Black Nobility". Among the Black Nobility are the COLONNA family, mentioned in the previous posting as the creators of 16th century "Thelemia" and "Do what thou wilt" themes.

 

[Deleted member 1432]

What started all of this was "The British Invasion"

Only an American would say that.

There were many other factors:

"Popular music of the United States in the 1960s became innately tied up into causes, opposing certain ideas, influenced by the sexual revolution, feminism, Black Power and environmentalism. This trend took place in a tumultuous period of massive public, unrest in the United States which consisted of the Cold War, Vietnam War, and Civil Rights Movement." Wikipedia

'Originating in the mid-1960s among British and American musicians, the sound of psychedelic rock invokes three core effects of LSD: depersonalization, dechronicization, and dynamization, all of which detach the user from reality...

...The first mention of LSD on a rock record was the Gamblers' [WS: American] 1960 surf instrumental "LSD 25"' Wikipedia

Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin, James Brown, Hendrix etc... were not 'British Invaders'.

 

[Fawkes]

Only an American would say that.

Naturally, we were the country being "invaded". You obviously weren't there to witness it. The Beatles were even decorated by the Queen (not an American) for doing it, by being admitted to the "Order of the BRITISH EMPIRE". Too bad Dr. Dee couldn't present their medals to them, given by another British monarch named "Elizabeth"!

"Impact on the United States music​

The British Invasion had a profound impact on popular music, internationalising the production of rock and roll, establishing the British popular music industry as a viable centre of musical creativity, and opening the door for subsequent British performers to achieve international success. In America, the Invasion arguably spelled the end of the popularity of instrumental surf music, pre-Motown vocal girl groups, the folk revival (which adapted by evolving into folk rock), teenage tragedy songs, Nashville country music (which also faced its own crisis with the deaths of some of its biggest stars at the same time), and temporarily, the teen idols that had dominated the United States charts in the late 1950s and early 1960s. It dented the careers of established R&B acts like Chubby Checker and temporarily derailed the chart success of certain surviving rock and roll acts, including Ricky Nelson, Fats Domino, the Everly Brothers, and Elvis Presley (who nevertheless racked up thirty Hot 100 entries from 1964 through 1967). It prompted many existing garage rock bands to adopt a sound with a British Invasion inflection and inspired many other groups to form, creating a scene from which many major US acts of the next decade would emerge. The British Invasion also played a major part in the rise of a distinct genre of rock music and cemented the primacy of the rock group, based around guitars and drums and producing their own material as singer-songwriters." British Invasion - Wikipedia

The first mention of LSD on a rock record was the Gamblers' [WS: American] 1960 surf instrumental "LSD 25"

HAHA, that really shook up the world, didn't it? As you mentioned, it was an INSTRUMENTAL (no lyrics), by a "surf band", and "The Gamblers" broke up the very next year! The "LSD" song that caused controversy, merely from creating those initials from a title, was The Beatles "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds", and then interpreting the fantastical imagery of the lyrics as an LSD experience. By the way, American Jimi Hendrix actually moved to England, where he started to make it big, and thus had to "reinvade" America.

 

[mutley7]

The documented sources put him in Prague at the time of his death around 1597-98, for which there are 2 different versions, neither of which include resurrection. Again, where is the evidence to show that the illustration from the 1841 'Historical Romance' above isn't also fictional?

Felix presented that illustration to 'illustrate' how myths and legends continued to be attached to Dee and Kelley long after their deaths and to therefore cast doubt upon the 'official' versions of their lives and adventures. He was (and still is) particularly bothered by the general accreditation to Dee of the Spanish Armada's defeat by the storm in the Channel whilst he was still abroad in Europe. This accreditation is also implied in Shakespeare's 'The Tempest'. This theme of defending the British Isles by the conjuring of storms has a tradition that goes back many centuries beyond even Dee's time.

This is interesting, lauralcanyonetc rinsenrepeat not so, not here anyhows!

Hellfire clubs, follies and associated activities of such - repetition of such "characters" over the given time frames....

Nothing new under the sun - except "their" names?....

 

[Fawkes]

John Lennon, Liverpool, Devil Worship (mentions, in passing, thread topics such as wizards, Prague, tunnels, obsidian mirror, etc.)

Did John Lennon Sell his Soul? by Tom Slemen

https://www.slemen.com/slemmy.html

 

[Deleted member 1432]

Naturally, we were the country being "invaded". You obviously weren't there to witness it. The Beatles were even decorated by the Queen (not an American) for doing it, by being admitted to the "Order of the BRITISH EMPIRE". Too bad Dr. Dee couldn't present their medals to them, given by another British monarch named "Elizabeth"!

"Impact on the United States music​

The British Invasion had a profound impact on popular music, internationalising the production of rock and roll, establishing the British popular music industry as a viable centre of musical creativity, and opening the door for subsequent British performers to achieve international success. In America, the Invasion arguably spelled the end of the popularity of instrumental surf music, pre-Motown vocal girl groups, the folk revival (which adapted by evolving into folk rock), teenage tragedy songs, Nashville country music (which also faced its own crisis with the deaths of some of its biggest stars at the same time), and temporarily, the teen idols that had dominated the United States charts in the late 1950s and early 1960s. It dented the careers of established R&B acts like Chubby Checker and temporarily derailed the chart success of certain surviving rock and roll acts, including Ricky Nelson, Fats Domino, the Everly Brothers, and Elvis Presley (who nevertheless racked up thirty Hot 100 entries from 1964 through 1967). It prompted many existing garage rock bands to adopt a sound with a British Invasion inflection and inspired many other groups to form, creating a scene from which many major US acts of the next decade would emerge. The British Invasion also played a major part in the rise of a distinct genre of rock music and cemented the primacy of the rock group, based around guitars and drums and producing their own material as singer-songwriters." British Invasion - Wikipedia


HAHA, that really shook up the world, didn't it? As you mentioned, it was an INSTRUMENTAL (no lyrics), by a "surf band", and "The Gamblers" broke up the very next year! The "LSD" song that caused controversy, merely from creating those initials from a title, was The Beatles "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds", and then interpreting the fantastical imagery of the lyrics as an LSD experience. By the way, American Jimi Hendrix actually moved to England, where he started to make it big, and thus had to "reinvade" America.

I think it's obvious from this that we can agree to disagree about everything and I will therefore be ignoring you in future. So, you can have the last word or, no doubt words, to your heart's content without fear of further invasion by this Brit into your... obsessions.

 

[Fawkes]

I think it's obvious from this that we can agree to disagree about everything and I will therefore be ignoring you in future. So, you can have the last word or, no doubt words, to your heart's content without fear of further invasion by this Brit into your... obsessions.

Happy Easter, Will, no hard feelings, I'm off to celebrate with my family.

 

[Fawkes]

For some reason it was a widely held belief that John Dee was responsible for conjuring the tempest that scuppered the Armada. However, if we believe the previous narrative which states that Dee wasn’t even in the country at the time, it would seem unlikely.

Perhaps what Dee actually did was depute Sir Francis Drake to conjure the tempest instead, while Dee himself was on the Continent. Drake and Dee apparently knew each other -

"Dr. Dee was a most important member in a secret group called the School of Night that included Sir Francis Drake, Sir Walter Raleigh, Christopher Marlowe, Thomas Hariot, George Chapman, and the Earl of Northumberland. They were also considered Dragon-Men. They were the writers, the scientists, and the explorers who drove England to join the race for the New World." Rosicrucian America

"Weather Witches
In Elizabethan England, Sir Francis Drake was said to have sold his soul to the Devil in exchange for success as skilled seaman. He later earned victory in 1588 against the Spanish Armada heading towards England, with great luck on his side.

A terrible storm swept through the English Channel, which hampered Spanish warships. It is said that the Drake had the help of the Devil and witches in the sea battle, who called the storm to aid the English fleet. Folklore tells how the spirits of these witches still haunt the coast around Devonport, at a spot known as Devil's Point." Storm Callers: The Art of Weather Magic