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Hmm, is fueling the imagination with fantastical claims a good thing if it is based in total nonsense, or a waste of one's time/life?
Observations on things.
- Thread starter Jd755
- Start date
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The problem with the stories of migrations and the methods of travel and the distances covered is one of logistics.
It is claimed for example that the Vandals numbering 160000 people, so presumably men, women, children of all ages, with belongings and probably animals, sailed in ships assembled in the med, through the straits and up towards Ireland. Not only did they accomplish this in good enough order to land and set about destroying and pillaging Ireland they sailed as a great fleet.
Numbers of ships, types of ships, crew numbers etc are all missing. 160000 people is a colossal number of people and baggage to Marshall together and embark and disembark again in a hostile land with an unknown coastline, tidal range. For the journey from start to finish be done in persistent good weather is unlikely but not impossible.
I know of no other way to establish the carrying capacity of their ships other than with comparison to wooden ships whose carrying capacity is known from building plans and journals.
This is the largest known wooden sailing ship.
Wyoming (schooner) - Wikipedia
I have discounted her as she was a failure due to her length.
This ship fits better to my mind as a basis for looking into the Vandal ships.
Götheborg of Sweden, replica of the world's largest wooden sailing ship
Her crew numbers 80.
Passenger numbers are not known.
It seems to me to be highly unlikely that ships of such size were possible to build in Vandal times. Again not impossible but unlikely.
So using crew per ton as a marker we see a crew of 80 is required to man a ship of 788 tons unladen.
Almost exactly 1 crew member for every 10 tons.
It is claimed the Vandals attacked and sank a Roman fleet off the Mediterranean coast of Spain using ships with 40 crew on board. It isn't clear from the accounts if that was the total number of people on board or just crew members. These ships are said to be small highly maneuverable and fast.
Assuming its crew members it and the marker established above it would put the ships tonnage at 400 tons.
Assuming the crew was one third of the number it would put the ships tonnage at 130 tons.
Assuming the crew was one quarter of the number it would put the tonnage at 100 tons
A 400 ton ship is not going to be as maneuverable as a 100 ton ship. It could be as fast if it had greater area of sail but that's it.
The Vandals themselves are claimed to have arisen and come out of the middle of northern Europe. An area without a coastline and access to the sea. It is claimed they advanced in a south westerly direction down through modern day France and into the Iberian peninsular sacking lands that were part of the Western Roman Empire. So a lot achieved on land without using and sea travel.
There is no indication of their number save for the claim of 160000 leaving the med years later.
160000 people would only contain a proportion of fit fighting age men that presumably would be reduced over time by fighting, diseases and desertion and marriage.
It seems to me to be a ridiculously small number of people to rampage through the route claimed and get to the straits in sufficient number and fitness to be able to cross into North Africa by ship and set about attacking the Roman controlled North African coast and hinterland.
The Romans there would likely we well aware of the impact these men had had on the European mainland portion of the Empire so I wouldn't expect them to just sit and await their fate.
Then comes the question of the claim that the Vandals ships were lightly built and would not stand breaching. A claim made for the Roman navy of the time as well.
The strength of a ship is there to withstand the launching. Repairs to hulls of any ship large or small made of any material cannot be done whilst its afloat. So they have to be removed from the water or the water removed from them.
Beaching at high tide is the easiest method of getting a dry hull to work on. It involves no machinery just a judgement of tides.
This alone shows the claim of being lightly built to be pure fantasy.
What I would say is the ships of the med are built for the seas encountered in the med. The seas encountered in the Atlantic beyond the straits of Gibraltar are of an order of magnitude more dangerous. Ships built to sail up and down the coast of Europe and Africa have to be more robust than ships built to sail Mediterranean coasts for this reason.
Ships from the Atlantic could cope well with Mediterranean seas but I would argue ships from the med couldn't cope with anything but the most benign Atlantic seas.
Back to the size of ships.
Today we see overloaded migrant ships making the trip across the med and unknown numbers sinking on the crossing. All of these ships seem to be under 100 tons in size. That some make it across is undisputed so the ships themselves can cope with the seas they encounter.
None of them would last long on the journey through the straits and up to Britain, for example.
Sanitation on these ships is non existent and the potable water and food position is never mentioned but it cannot be good.
These ships are also motor powdered not sail powered so can sail in any direction independent of wind and current direction. The vandals ships were sail powered so only able to sail where wind and current permitted.
As they had no sea faring tradition or skills of their own it has to be the case that any crew on the ship was native to the lands along the med coast of the Iberian peninsular. This would mean that if nothing else the ships captain and crew would know the seas they sailed in even though the Vandals themselves did not.. As time went on its probable some Vandal men took to the sea and became accomplished sailors and navigators but never I would argue gaining a majority big enough to displace native seafarers.
The ships must have been built by shipbuilders already present on the coasts when the Vandals pitched up on their looting and destroying adventure. Given they were said to be ruthless and destroyed town after town its a wonder why and shipbuilding facility or timber yard survived their attentions let alone how the shipbuilders themselves survived the swords of the Vandals.
Yet somehow ships and their builders endured.
The number of ports with jetties or docks in them I know not but I would wager most of the loading and unloading of ships with cargo and people was done on beaches or in sheltered harbour boat and barge transfers. This again points to the strength of the ships of the med being built to withstand the initial launch and subsequent beaching's.
Undoubtedly some ships from the med did sail out into the coastal areas of Europe an Africa either side of the straits and possibly further afield but suggest it was neither the norm nor the bulk of the shipping within the med that did this.
Quite how it was possible to assemble and manage sufficient ships to embark 160000 people, their baggage and animals in port and on beach manned by crews whose captains would know the Atlantic's winds and currents let alone the destination of Ireland is beyond me.
Logistically these ships would have to each carry sufficient water and food for the voyage as their former land of the Iberian Peninsular were said to be independent of the Roman Empire and the Vandals had been pushed into North Afrtica thus once through the strait they could not land again until they found the shores of Ireland.
Shores alien to I would argue all aboard in the fleet bar navigators or pilots who had made the journey previously.
Assuming the ships made landfall on the shores of Ireland safely and in good order fresh water and food must have been in very short supply given the capacity of the ships and the distance travelled. Ireland's shores would literally be shit or bust time.
Presumably the ships carrying fighting men would be first to land up and clear away any force of fighting men assembled on shore to stop them. How they knew where to beach their ships or which ports to enter is anyone's guess.
How long would it take to establish a safe landing spot or given the numbers claimed, landing spits for the bulk of those travelling to disembark safely?
Each subsequent day they had to stay on their ships reduced potable water and food and the condition of the people and any animals they had with them.
It makes less and less sense.
The Vandals might easily go unsighted from the shores and cliffs if the people of Ireland had no idea they were coming. Its a bit less easy to accept that once the Vandals ships began disembarking they could do so unnoticed nor unmolested. Whatever armed force was present in Ireland at that time must have been alerted and assembled from across the entirety of Ireland to prevent these aggressors from occupying lands and I would argue it wouldn't be long before the British in Wales and Cornwall were aware of what was unfolding.
It is also not impossible some of the Vandals ships missed Ireland altogether and instead landed in Wales or Cornwall. Which in either event would put the British on alert something untoward may have been underway.
Any that missed landfall completely would have perished at sea but its not inconceivable that some sailed into the Severn estuary or entered the Irish sea and landed on Ireland's east coast, the western Welsh and English coasts or made it all the way to the southern Scottish coasts.
I don't buy the argument that they all landed on the southern Irish coast.
In the Falklands war the United Kingdom commandeered two ocean liners as troop carriers. QEII carried 3000 troops. QE2 - History
Canberra carried another 3000.
Together these two huge steel hulled motor ships could only manage 6000 troops.
The claim for the vandals is one of 160000 people being carried in wooden ships of the day. The numbers of ships is proving hard to estimate as there is just little evidence of what form or scale these ships were. Oars are next to useless on a sailing ship as they create immense drag when they are in the water and turbulence in the air when out o it. The oars of racing boats are very very close to the waterline for these reasons.
A broken oar in a bank of oars would create mayhem as would a fatigued oarsman. If oarsmen do not pull together on both sides of the ship steering is rendered moot. So all things considered no ship equipped with oars would be taken out of the med, in my estimation.
This leaves sail.
The ships of the days sail type is not known so any mention of sail type in regards vandal ships used for migrations is speculative, as is this entire post to be fair, but triangular and square sails are the two most likely to have been so employed.
Given the sheer number of ships that would have been needed to carry 160000 people its fair to say there would have been a mixture.
Then there is the seaworthiness to consider. Many ship designs are what is termed wet in that they dip their bows into the waves and so take onboard water from the sea then get rid of it again by having open sides.
Others are dry ships so they rise and fall on the waves. As these ships of the Vandals are on a one way journey I would argue they are likely to be loaded at least to capacity and with most loaded beyond which in any sea state would render most of them wet ships.
The could have been closed deck ships or open decked ships or a combination of the two just no way to know though my money is again on a mixture with open decked ships dominating the fleet.
Many designs are good sea boats in the conditions and seas they are built for and bad sea boats when they encounter sea states they are not designed for. If as I suggest most of the ships were designed and built for Mediterranean seas then Atlantic seas will make them bad sea boats. This has to have a detrimental impact on every aspect of this fleet. People, stores, ships, crews would almost all be in unfamiliar positions, weather, sea states not knowing where they are going nor what they are going to encounter when they get there nor how long its going to take.
Pirates are likely to have been a concern. If as would seem sensible the ships carrying fighting men sailed at the head of the fleet then the chances of pirates picking off the other ships unmolested are quite high. Certainly the only people onboard who could have recognised a pirate ship or defended their own with any vigour would have been the crew, however if the crews were mainly natives and not Vandals there is the possibility they were only too happy to see the pirates as at least they themselves were not on a one way journey to lands unknown.
I say one way because for the Vandals their former lands in Europe were seemingly beyond them as were their new one in North Africa and the Roman Empire was pressuring them on all fronts.
This would suggest the route to the lands of their origin, presumably where Vandals in some number had remained. I also wonder how such a group of people were able to dominate so much land with such disparate cultures living within and being part of the Roman Empire as we are told it was, so successfully.
Did they simply abandon their homeland and wander Europe and the med pillaging and looting all along the way?
What did they use their loot for?
Its all extremely subjective if not doubtful.
Was the term Vandal just a mishearing of some other word in another language and not the name of a race of people as is claimed?
Were they forced from their homeland by someone else or natural circumstances?
Strikes me they would have to find out along the way what was edible if nothing else. Especially once they landed in Africa.
Where did they come from?
A figment of imagination or a tribe having a wander shoved into a faked up narrative?
So many questions.
In any case it is claimed they were either forced out of Ireland or left of their own accord and sailing, again how?, the Irish sea they pitched up around the Mersey area and moved into what is the middle of England. On the way forcing the British into the Welsh side of the Severn and putting pressure on all the other peoples said to be present on the island of Britain at the time.
It is also claimed that a comet had laid waste to vast areas of Britain and the Vandals pitch up and occupy a large swathe of the recovering waste land which kind of makes sense in one way in that all the people already on the island would hardly be in any state to oppose them, for the most part, but on the other who would move into devastated land when they have been more than used to fighting and pillaging their way onto good land?
Yet more questions than answers.
Throughout it all I get the distinct feeling its the calendar which has been dreamt up and actual fact is mixed with deliberate, lies, misinterpretations, agendas and a huge dose of religious doctrine which creates a melange that is difficult to separate. Logistics is one way.
I appreciate some argue its political takeovers not necessarily pillaging and looting on as physical level but seizing of control of land and assets but evidence for this is thin on the ground.
Britain and to a lesser extent Ireland was the resource centre par excellence in terms of metallurgy and associated technologies and goods. It had vast timber resources and animal stocks both wild and managed with fish from sea and inland waters/rivers forming a not insignificant part. Also it was an island and by far the majority of its coastline is inhospitable to invaders forcing them to arrive at choke points.
There was an awful lot of assets concentrated in a relatively small and relatively isolated place so its attraction to invaders was obvious. Control Britain and you control a lot more beyond its shores it seems.
That said fast forwarding to today Russia and China the two bogeymen said to have designs on this island have no need of the assets that remain as both are richer in them within their existing borders so its just fear mongering to keep an agenda going.
I do find myself wondering if fear mongering was the root of the migrations story of the Vandals.
---------------
Edit to give some perspective to the vandal claim.
From here World War II: D-Day, The Invasion of Normandy | Eisenhower Presidential Library
-----------------
Such evidence as there is renders the things I have written about in this thread as on balance not true.
Go through my back catalogue on here to see my entire time on this forum, least the threads I made. Then tell me I am killing ideas in those searching for answers.
Anyway I'm done now.
In the bullshit department no-one can hold a candle to a clergyman...except maybe a historian.
It is claimed for example that the Vandals numbering 160000 people, so presumably men, women, children of all ages, with belongings and probably animals, sailed in ships assembled in the med, through the straits and up towards Ireland. Not only did they accomplish this in good enough order to land and set about destroying and pillaging Ireland they sailed as a great fleet.
Numbers of ships, types of ships, crew numbers etc are all missing. 160000 people is a colossal number of people and baggage to Marshall together and embark and disembark again in a hostile land with an unknown coastline, tidal range. For the journey from start to finish be done in persistent good weather is unlikely but not impossible.
I know of no other way to establish the carrying capacity of their ships other than with comparison to wooden ships whose carrying capacity is known from building plans and journals.
This is the largest known wooden sailing ship.
Wyoming (schooner) - Wikipedia
I have discounted her as she was a failure due to her length.
This ship fits better to my mind as a basis for looking into the Vandal ships.
Götheborg of Sweden, replica of the world's largest wooden sailing ship
Her crew numbers 80.
Passenger numbers are not known.
It seems to me to be highly unlikely that ships of such size were possible to build in Vandal times. Again not impossible but unlikely.
So using crew per ton as a marker we see a crew of 80 is required to man a ship of 788 tons unladen.
Almost exactly 1 crew member for every 10 tons.
It is claimed the Vandals attacked and sank a Roman fleet off the Mediterranean coast of Spain using ships with 40 crew on board. It isn't clear from the accounts if that was the total number of people on board or just crew members. These ships are said to be small highly maneuverable and fast.
Assuming its crew members it and the marker established above it would put the ships tonnage at 400 tons.
Assuming the crew was one third of the number it would put the ships tonnage at 130 tons.
Assuming the crew was one quarter of the number it would put the tonnage at 100 tons
A 400 ton ship is not going to be as maneuverable as a 100 ton ship. It could be as fast if it had greater area of sail but that's it.
The Vandals themselves are claimed to have arisen and come out of the middle of northern Europe. An area without a coastline and access to the sea. It is claimed they advanced in a south westerly direction down through modern day France and into the Iberian peninsular sacking lands that were part of the Western Roman Empire. So a lot achieved on land without using and sea travel.
There is no indication of their number save for the claim of 160000 leaving the med years later.
160000 people would only contain a proportion of fit fighting age men that presumably would be reduced over time by fighting, diseases and desertion and marriage.
It seems to me to be a ridiculously small number of people to rampage through the route claimed and get to the straits in sufficient number and fitness to be able to cross into North Africa by ship and set about attacking the Roman controlled North African coast and hinterland.
The Romans there would likely we well aware of the impact these men had had on the European mainland portion of the Empire so I wouldn't expect them to just sit and await their fate.
Then comes the question of the claim that the Vandals ships were lightly built and would not stand breaching. A claim made for the Roman navy of the time as well.
The strength of a ship is there to withstand the launching. Repairs to hulls of any ship large or small made of any material cannot be done whilst its afloat. So they have to be removed from the water or the water removed from them.
Beaching at high tide is the easiest method of getting a dry hull to work on. It involves no machinery just a judgement of tides.
This alone shows the claim of being lightly built to be pure fantasy.
What I would say is the ships of the med are built for the seas encountered in the med. The seas encountered in the Atlantic beyond the straits of Gibraltar are of an order of magnitude more dangerous. Ships built to sail up and down the coast of Europe and Africa have to be more robust than ships built to sail Mediterranean coasts for this reason.
Ships from the Atlantic could cope well with Mediterranean seas but I would argue ships from the med couldn't cope with anything but the most benign Atlantic seas.
Back to the size of ships.
Today we see overloaded migrant ships making the trip across the med and unknown numbers sinking on the crossing. All of these ships seem to be under 100 tons in size. That some make it across is undisputed so the ships themselves can cope with the seas they encounter.
None of them would last long on the journey through the straits and up to Britain, for example.
Sanitation on these ships is non existent and the potable water and food position is never mentioned but it cannot be good.
These ships are also motor powdered not sail powered so can sail in any direction independent of wind and current direction. The vandals ships were sail powered so only able to sail where wind and current permitted.
As they had no sea faring tradition or skills of their own it has to be the case that any crew on the ship was native to the lands along the med coast of the Iberian peninsular. This would mean that if nothing else the ships captain and crew would know the seas they sailed in even though the Vandals themselves did not.. As time went on its probable some Vandal men took to the sea and became accomplished sailors and navigators but never I would argue gaining a majority big enough to displace native seafarers.
The ships must have been built by shipbuilders already present on the coasts when the Vandals pitched up on their looting and destroying adventure. Given they were said to be ruthless and destroyed town after town its a wonder why and shipbuilding facility or timber yard survived their attentions let alone how the shipbuilders themselves survived the swords of the Vandals.
Yet somehow ships and their builders endured.
The number of ports with jetties or docks in them I know not but I would wager most of the loading and unloading of ships with cargo and people was done on beaches or in sheltered harbour boat and barge transfers. This again points to the strength of the ships of the med being built to withstand the initial launch and subsequent beaching's.
Undoubtedly some ships from the med did sail out into the coastal areas of Europe an Africa either side of the straits and possibly further afield but suggest it was neither the norm nor the bulk of the shipping within the med that did this.
Quite how it was possible to assemble and manage sufficient ships to embark 160000 people, their baggage and animals in port and on beach manned by crews whose captains would know the Atlantic's winds and currents let alone the destination of Ireland is beyond me.
Logistically these ships would have to each carry sufficient water and food for the voyage as their former land of the Iberian Peninsular were said to be independent of the Roman Empire and the Vandals had been pushed into North Afrtica thus once through the strait they could not land again until they found the shores of Ireland.
Shores alien to I would argue all aboard in the fleet bar navigators or pilots who had made the journey previously.
Assuming the ships made landfall on the shores of Ireland safely and in good order fresh water and food must have been in very short supply given the capacity of the ships and the distance travelled. Ireland's shores would literally be shit or bust time.
Presumably the ships carrying fighting men would be first to land up and clear away any force of fighting men assembled on shore to stop them. How they knew where to beach their ships or which ports to enter is anyone's guess.
How long would it take to establish a safe landing spot or given the numbers claimed, landing spits for the bulk of those travelling to disembark safely?
Each subsequent day they had to stay on their ships reduced potable water and food and the condition of the people and any animals they had with them.
It makes less and less sense.
The Vandals might easily go unsighted from the shores and cliffs if the people of Ireland had no idea they were coming. Its a bit less easy to accept that once the Vandals ships began disembarking they could do so unnoticed nor unmolested. Whatever armed force was present in Ireland at that time must have been alerted and assembled from across the entirety of Ireland to prevent these aggressors from occupying lands and I would argue it wouldn't be long before the British in Wales and Cornwall were aware of what was unfolding.
It is also not impossible some of the Vandals ships missed Ireland altogether and instead landed in Wales or Cornwall. Which in either event would put the British on alert something untoward may have been underway.
Any that missed landfall completely would have perished at sea but its not inconceivable that some sailed into the Severn estuary or entered the Irish sea and landed on Ireland's east coast, the western Welsh and English coasts or made it all the way to the southern Scottish coasts.
I don't buy the argument that they all landed on the southern Irish coast.
In the Falklands war the United Kingdom commandeered two ocean liners as troop carriers. QEII carried 3000 troops. QE2 - History
Canberra carried another 3000.
Together these two huge steel hulled motor ships could only manage 6000 troops.
The claim for the vandals is one of 160000 people being carried in wooden ships of the day. The numbers of ships is proving hard to estimate as there is just little evidence of what form or scale these ships were. Oars are next to useless on a sailing ship as they create immense drag when they are in the water and turbulence in the air when out o it. The oars of racing boats are very very close to the waterline for these reasons.
A broken oar in a bank of oars would create mayhem as would a fatigued oarsman. If oarsmen do not pull together on both sides of the ship steering is rendered moot. So all things considered no ship equipped with oars would be taken out of the med, in my estimation.
This leaves sail.
The ships of the days sail type is not known so any mention of sail type in regards vandal ships used for migrations is speculative, as is this entire post to be fair, but triangular and square sails are the two most likely to have been so employed.
Given the sheer number of ships that would have been needed to carry 160000 people its fair to say there would have been a mixture.
Then there is the seaworthiness to consider. Many ship designs are what is termed wet in that they dip their bows into the waves and so take onboard water from the sea then get rid of it again by having open sides.
Others are dry ships so they rise and fall on the waves. As these ships of the Vandals are on a one way journey I would argue they are likely to be loaded at least to capacity and with most loaded beyond which in any sea state would render most of them wet ships.
The could have been closed deck ships or open decked ships or a combination of the two just no way to know though my money is again on a mixture with open decked ships dominating the fleet.
Many designs are good sea boats in the conditions and seas they are built for and bad sea boats when they encounter sea states they are not designed for. If as I suggest most of the ships were designed and built for Mediterranean seas then Atlantic seas will make them bad sea boats. This has to have a detrimental impact on every aspect of this fleet. People, stores, ships, crews would almost all be in unfamiliar positions, weather, sea states not knowing where they are going nor what they are going to encounter when they get there nor how long its going to take.
Pirates are likely to have been a concern. If as would seem sensible the ships carrying fighting men sailed at the head of the fleet then the chances of pirates picking off the other ships unmolested are quite high. Certainly the only people onboard who could have recognised a pirate ship or defended their own with any vigour would have been the crew, however if the crews were mainly natives and not Vandals there is the possibility they were only too happy to see the pirates as at least they themselves were not on a one way journey to lands unknown.
I say one way because for the Vandals their former lands in Europe were seemingly beyond them as were their new one in North Africa and the Roman Empire was pressuring them on all fronts.
This would suggest the route to the lands of their origin, presumably where Vandals in some number had remained. I also wonder how such a group of people were able to dominate so much land with such disparate cultures living within and being part of the Roman Empire as we are told it was, so successfully.
Did they simply abandon their homeland and wander Europe and the med pillaging and looting all along the way?
What did they use their loot for?
Its all extremely subjective if not doubtful.
Was the term Vandal just a mishearing of some other word in another language and not the name of a race of people as is claimed?
Were they forced from their homeland by someone else or natural circumstances?
Strikes me they would have to find out along the way what was edible if nothing else. Especially once they landed in Africa.
Where did they come from?
A figment of imagination or a tribe having a wander shoved into a faked up narrative?
So many questions.
In any case it is claimed they were either forced out of Ireland or left of their own accord and sailing, again how?, the Irish sea they pitched up around the Mersey area and moved into what is the middle of England. On the way forcing the British into the Welsh side of the Severn and putting pressure on all the other peoples said to be present on the island of Britain at the time.
It is also claimed that a comet had laid waste to vast areas of Britain and the Vandals pitch up and occupy a large swathe of the recovering waste land which kind of makes sense in one way in that all the people already on the island would hardly be in any state to oppose them, for the most part, but on the other who would move into devastated land when they have been more than used to fighting and pillaging their way onto good land?
Yet more questions than answers.
Throughout it all I get the distinct feeling its the calendar which has been dreamt up and actual fact is mixed with deliberate, lies, misinterpretations, agendas and a huge dose of religious doctrine which creates a melange that is difficult to separate. Logistics is one way.
I appreciate some argue its political takeovers not necessarily pillaging and looting on as physical level but seizing of control of land and assets but evidence for this is thin on the ground.
Britain and to a lesser extent Ireland was the resource centre par excellence in terms of metallurgy and associated technologies and goods. It had vast timber resources and animal stocks both wild and managed with fish from sea and inland waters/rivers forming a not insignificant part. Also it was an island and by far the majority of its coastline is inhospitable to invaders forcing them to arrive at choke points.
There was an awful lot of assets concentrated in a relatively small and relatively isolated place so its attraction to invaders was obvious. Control Britain and you control a lot more beyond its shores it seems.
That said fast forwarding to today Russia and China the two bogeymen said to have designs on this island have no need of the assets that remain as both are richer in them within their existing borders so its just fear mongering to keep an agenda going.
I do find myself wondering if fear mongering was the root of the migrations story of the Vandals.
---------------
Edit to give some perspective to the vandal claim.
From here World War II: D-Day, The Invasion of Normandy | Eisenhower Presidential Library
-----------------
A fairy story is a fairy story without evidence that on balance renders the story more likely true than not.
Such evidence as there is renders the things I have written about in this thread as on balance not true.
Go through my back catalogue on here to see my entire time on this forum, least the threads I made. Then tell me I am killing ideas in those searching for answers.
Anyway I'm done now.
In the bullshit department no-one can hold a candle to a clergyman...except maybe a historian.
Last edited:
Excellent deconstruction.
To clarify, you assert that history is more or less accurate as the mainstream narrative tells it: with a lot of exaggeration, misinterpretation, and outright fraud primarily done by various religious orders and institutions for their own gain and ‘reputation’?
And I feel this doesn’t destroy the magic at all, and appreciate this line of thought completely because it helps me analyze more critically.
We are already looking for a needle in the haystack, why make matters worse by confusing ourselves? We need to crowdsource the particular avenues of investigation that are dead ends, as well as theories that fit the present.
And everything you say is very logical, very close to my thoughts before KD, but... then I look at the details, the art work, the granite vases and columns and buildings and stones and how they fit together. Where are those tools? Forget giants. Tools for mortal hands and minds to melt and shape stone like butter when they are not using sticks to scrape their butt - because we do have the butt sticks. Just not the tools.
When I started reading KD I wrote and told him that it was all taxation and government ordinance and zoning that caused the deterioration of the human ability and spirit - I believed that.
But then. I went out and bought a sledge hammer and some chisels, stone working tools and just played around with various rocks. I built stuff. Etched. Saw how difficult it was to remove rock even one scratch at a time to save the integrity of the piece - ‘the noses just fell off.’
I started a garden, began canning, cooking over fire, primitive stuff just to get a shadow of understanding of the means of previous civilizations, and I will say I could easily feed ten people with my garden production and I didn’t even grow potatoes...
What that led me to was also more questions then answers.
But you are still here, all of us, but you especially have invested a large amount of time adding to the conversation, often sharing a brave contrarian viewpoint, and helping to dismiss incorrect ideas. And you haven’t just thrown your hands up and gone - ‘they’re all nuts!’ I’m ignoring it -
None of us have, because we don’t know what’s going on but we know it’s something. Now I’ve jumped the gun posting this without providing substantial facts because like everybody here, my opinion differs, and I am still to ignorant to be confident I anything, but -
I’m currently looking at energy, not from the ‘free’ perspective, but from the decentralized perspective. We do have plenty of evidence for wood gasification, steam power, and creative battery technologies. You can shape granite with heat. But my pet theory is that there is a way to ‘destabilize’ the molecular bonds of stone through electromagnetic means and create weak spots.
I would be willing to believe then, that copper tools, being conductive would make perfect sense. I’d also be willing to believe that humans were the battery to power such tools, that through meditation they were able to focus their own energetic fields, and we do see this to some extent scientifically -
But, maybe I’m wasting your time, and I’d rather research and experiment then type, so steer me more to what you need or have questions, brother - Because at the end of the day, it’s all going to be speculation until we figure it out, but what moves me to keep searching and looking is because everybody I know is good. Hopeful. Kind. They make mistakes and the human condition is what it is, but it doesn’t explain the evil - that is orchestrated, it doesn’t explain covid, Iraq (I’m a vet, military intel) and what I learned there, how we operate, our goals -
And the easiest explanation is there are a plethera of shadow, dark organizations, terroristic cells working toward terrible ends with outstanding levels of secrecy and enforced compliance, but even then would it be possible to do as they did without some other method of communication and organization then what is currently known?
I see the proud boys emblem, the Roman wreath - and maybe it is all just coincidence and human silliness led by L Ron hubbards, but thanks for researching and sharing, and reading this far if you did, ha ha!
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JD755, I would like to invite you to look at a documentary about a fella named Joseph Newman with his perpetual motion machine that made electricity. This doc can be found on the VICE channel. This man is or was a modern genius of his own right, and he didn't start out that way.
He was the a bodybuilder that invented the exercising weights that were made out of plastic and sounded like they had sand in side which he patented and then all of a sudden came upon this great discovery of free clean energy.
He was the a bodybuilder that invented the exercising weights that were made out of plastic and sounded like they had sand in side which he patented and then all of a sudden came upon this great discovery of free clean energy.
Why?
Do you have one of his machines?
If you do you have my attention.
Do you have the plans/instructions for how to build one?
Do you know of anyone who has tested one?
Did you know his book is on archive.org?
Did you know he "found god"?
Free energy is everywhere. Its the illusion of money that masks the truth.
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Why? What have you invented? I do not have one of his machines, and could care less if I have your attention or not, I was just trying to start a discussion. Can you build one? And yes many people supposedly tested this machine and it baffled even physicists, not to mention the death threats he received and the people who tried to test the machine. No I did not know he had a book and I could care less if he "found god", most men his age "find god".
Yes free energy is everywhere, no one has found how to harness it because they are all going about it in the wrong human way. I think it is important to look to the past to get even the closest idea of what that would be like, and even then I think that we as a human race do not deserve it, but the animals do, they have nothing to do with our stupid shit that messes up this planet. No one ever thinks of the animals, just the stupid humans. Humans can suck it!
Ooh thats quite a rant.
I have invented bugger except perhaps my seemingly unique logistics way of establishing the veracityof historical claims, if that counts.
Its a helluva way of starting a discusssion pointing me at a video.
Much more interested in your take on things than some youtuber thrid party.
His book https://archive.org/stream/TheEnerg...Machine+of+Joseph+Newman+8th+Edition_djvu.txt
Third party discussion on Mr Newmans theory and his efforts.
Joseph W. Newman: South African Patent Application #831296, "Energy Generation System Having Higher Energy Output Than Input"
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Thank you and will take a look at this later but I am in a hurry, off to class for this old lady. Uhhhh......
Had you built, used, seen this machine or had talked with someone who had then my attention is piqued because its first or second hand experience.
As it is I haven't found anything from anyone who has built one or seen one in action save those at the rexresearch link.
Given his desire to 'protect' his invention with the US Patent system and his subsequent "fight" with that system two things jump out.
Firstly he was ignorant of the fact the point of the patent system is the creator of the patent system controls everything in its register.
Secondly it seems to me instead of just accepting the claim and granting the patent then putting it on a shelf, so too speak, an opportunity for mis direction was taken hence the testing by the bureau was invoked which led to the patent fight which then consumed Mr Newman and placed a focus of "He must be onto something because the government is not granting a patent and Mr Newman is on a mainstream tv channel show."
Thus a rabbit hole gets opened.
Not saying thats precisely what happened its just my feeling based entirely in what I read on rexresearch.
As it is I haven't found anything from anyone who has built one or seen one in action save those at the rexresearch link.
Given his desire to 'protect' his invention with the US Patent system and his subsequent "fight" with that system two things jump out.
Firstly he was ignorant of the fact the point of the patent system is the creator of the patent system controls everything in its register.
Secondly it seems to me instead of just accepting the claim and granting the patent then putting it on a shelf, so too speak, an opportunity for mis direction was taken hence the testing by the bureau was invoked which led to the patent fight which then consumed Mr Newman and placed a focus of "He must be onto something because the government is not granting a patent and Mr Newman is on a mainstream tv channel show."
Thus a rabbit hole gets opened.
Not saying thats precisely what happened its just my feeling based entirely in what I read on rexresearch.
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See the thing is, when you watch people you get a different picture verses reading something. Even though he built this supposed machine, he was actually not as bright as you would assume he might be. When you watch the VICE doc you get to see him in action and hear what he has to say, it is quite intriguing, especially how crazy many people tried to say that he was. We are all but actors in this play we call life and for some reason the doc resonated with me. I think it was more of the power struggle and how many tried to dispute him and try to embarrass him, but his machine supposedly worked. I don't know, but what I do know is, it was interesting. But you might think differently and that is okay. Thanks for even looking in to it thus far.
Isnt that the name of the game? Straw man attacks while ignoring any merit - and it does work.
But JD makes the best point -
Before researching electrical energy I played with biogas and woodgas, then I wanted electric so I created the prints for an underwater air powered Ferris wheel style mechanical generator that leveraged boyouncy to create over unity energy, and really thought I was something special.
Then I found almost the same design from over 100 years ago.
but the money is where things get wonky, because truthfully, anybody smart enough to leverage natural forces to offset such a small bill can easily afford the energy bill and the cost is about convenience -
But could you imagine if every American had an extra 100 a month? And a good portion of that money was going to local businesses -
the free energy factor is so big because while it is a small bill, having that money stay locally has a compounding effect, because you have energy to run greenhouses, pottery kilns and mini foundries, a decentralized microeconomic monstrosity and a middle class, again -
So we’ve got to do it, free energy, knowing that it’s not a single shoe for all, some biogas, some woodgas. Hydropower and sand batters, tree circuits and solar, the Lovell Monothermal (my favorite if I can get it to work).
And then hopefully somebody really smart can figure out the magnet stuff because holy crap is that all confusing.
True in the flesh. Not in digital media productions.
------------
The illusion of money is that it is THE measure of value. The only measure whose unit is in constant motion.
Imagine if you will a plastic ruler lined off in inches that shrinks in size in the dark and increases in size in the light. Would that be a good measure?
A crude analogy but the unit of money is such a plastic measure.
Sweep the illusion away and the meter disappears. The "cost" of production disappears. All "costs" vanish with the illusion.
So we already have all the electrical energy needed right here right now and have had since the processes of production were invented.
Money to my mind is a not a creation of a distant past but is far, far more recent.
As it sits today we are all enslaved to electricity. It is the one thing the majority of humans pay homage to every day of their lives after they are old enough to use the devices that run on it. It with its running mate the money illusion, cross every artificial man made barrier I know of.
It is a slave master without equal as it itself is ethereal. It enslaves the humans who think themselves to be masters just as successfully as everyone else who thinks themselves to be free of slavery.
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Someone once told me to not bother thinking of the philosophy of money, but I did not listen and I still wont. I have thought that all of these things that the human has accomplished could easily be done without money. We could still build buildings without money, feed people without money, etc.. But the illusion is that without the dollar to entice someone to do something, without the dollar nothing would be able to be done. The piece of paper or metal object that is called a monetary unit has no value by its self. You could eat a dollar bill but I wouldn't, you could eat a quarter as my friend once did when we were playing the drinking game quarters, but that did him no good.
This to me is definite evidence that someone has set this monopoly game up with intentions of becoming the head of the game. I find it interesting that the only thing monetary units can do is pretend to have meaning and pretend to show the worth of something that it will never be. If money did not exist though I am sure the human would find some new way of trying to be better and have more than someone else. I think that the problem starts with the human and its ego that it is better than what the earth has to offer us for resources to avoid ultimate annihilation to survive.
I just want to thank everyone for their thoughts and opinions, it really helps to try and make some sense of these weird creatures that we call humans.
I wonder what the animals of this world think about humans? Probably not to highly. I know horses gave up talking to humans a long time ago because they stopped listening.
Be well everyone!!
Since JD you have stopped updating for a week, I’m assuming you are done for the moment; I still don’t really get your viewpoint on this.
in a previous post, you said
Yes, arches are good for bearing weight, and I can accept there is an opening in the ground for some maintenance work. But, I don’t see why there needs to be a whole line of arches(holes) in the ground level - would not a single one in the back of the building suffice if the hole is for maintenance work? Why make it so prominent at the front (and side) of the building(s)?
Have a read through this. Building Construction And Superintendence | by F. E. Kidder
Sad to see both current versions of stolenhistory fall so quiet. Feels inevitable I suppose. People lose interest, get frustrated, cannot be bothered, die, get ill, or just plain move on.
What used to be a loose group of people simply thinking out loud, researching, posting findings, posting anything of interest to the thread topic with very, very limited "offence" being taken by the reader was a joy to be part of.
It really felt that collectively we could get a handle on history that was more than likely going to be accurate.
T'was not to be.
This version rose from the remains of the original thanks to the efforts of a group of former members and things looked promising again.
Sadly none of those people post any more let alone start threads on things they have found.
The desire to reach a "wider audience" to quote marketing speak, by creating YouTube videos took this site in a different direction one where entertainment is king not thinking out loud and sharing. Which is ironic as I first came across the original site in a link under a video of a Sophie Ivanova video that had appeared in the YouTube suggestions one evening.
KD then resurrected another version of the stolenhistory original and changed it to a blog format. Its mostly a revisiting of topics and threads from the original, the vast majority of which are also here in the archive along with the majority of discussion strings.
So both sites survive but neither is what could be called active. Most of the members of the original never signed up to either of the new sites and of those who did precious few post anything.
Here its become offensive to many, not all, to question what has been written, question sources, interpretations, conclusions, veracity of content to the point some whine either in the thread or in private or to the moderator.
This state of affairs is not conducive to furthering investigation and I feel it puts people off from posting so the lurker outnumbers the poster by a quite considerable margin.
The "core"' theories of all three stolenhistory incarnations remain the same.
There was a golden age of civilisation that is no more but left physical clues ligging about.
There was a catastrophe that swept the golden age away by mud, by fire, by divine retribution or something else.
This catastrophe created a reset of humanity in its wake which resulted in what we call civilisation today.
Oh and the chronological order of history was messed with at some point or points by someone or some people who may or may not have been part of some sect, religion, secret society, group who know "the truth" but never do they speak or write it.
In short we are no nearer establishing if any of those theories pan out than we were in 2018/19. In truth none of them hold any water for me. It is my thread so surely its okay to state that within it without causing offence to anyone reading. We'll see no doubt.
What used to be a loose group of people simply thinking out loud, researching, posting findings, posting anything of interest to the thread topic with very, very limited "offence" being taken by the reader was a joy to be part of.
It really felt that collectively we could get a handle on history that was more than likely going to be accurate.
T'was not to be.
This version rose from the remains of the original thanks to the efforts of a group of former members and things looked promising again.
Sadly none of those people post any more let alone start threads on things they have found.
The desire to reach a "wider audience" to quote marketing speak, by creating YouTube videos took this site in a different direction one where entertainment is king not thinking out loud and sharing. Which is ironic as I first came across the original site in a link under a video of a Sophie Ivanova video that had appeared in the YouTube suggestions one evening.
KD then resurrected another version of the stolenhistory original and changed it to a blog format. Its mostly a revisiting of topics and threads from the original, the vast majority of which are also here in the archive along with the majority of discussion strings.
So both sites survive but neither is what could be called active. Most of the members of the original never signed up to either of the new sites and of those who did precious few post anything.
Here its become offensive to many, not all, to question what has been written, question sources, interpretations, conclusions, veracity of content to the point some whine either in the thread or in private or to the moderator.
This state of affairs is not conducive to furthering investigation and I feel it puts people off from posting so the lurker outnumbers the poster by a quite considerable margin.
The "core"' theories of all three stolenhistory incarnations remain the same.
There was a golden age of civilisation that is no more but left physical clues ligging about.
There was a catastrophe that swept the golden age away by mud, by fire, by divine retribution or something else.
This catastrophe created a reset of humanity in its wake which resulted in what we call civilisation today.
Oh and the chronological order of history was messed with at some point or points by someone or some people who may or may not have been part of some sect, religion, secret society, group who know "the truth" but never do they speak or write it.
In short we are no nearer establishing if any of those theories pan out than we were in 2018/19. In truth none of them hold any water for me. It is my thread so surely its okay to state that within it without causing offence to anyone reading. We'll see no doubt.
D
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@Jd755 The situation you are now describing was predicted back in 2020...
The Future of Stolenhistory
The Future of Stolenhistory
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The actual people that come/came here are actually seeing the sites for what they really are...
You call it (((predicted))) lol. I call it *planned*.
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It's quite a sad sate of the site, that's for sure. In the thread for welcoming of new members there's like, 78 pages of replies. Among those, how many made a reply on any thread or tried to create a coherent one to engage productive discussion?? I hope things improve, currently i'm not engaging much due to my mental state, but i hope things will improve again.
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