Rome - Money - Land Enclosure

My understanding is that Celtic and Viking societies had no rulers except in times of crisis (famine, being raided by bandits etc) in which case they would appoint a leader who would guide them through the crisis then resign afterwards.

There was no government unless everybody agreed they need one.

Edit - traditional American society had an annual Pow-Wow in which the entire tribe would come together and party for days. Eventually the chief would ask if anyone had any issues they wanted to raise, in which case somebody might say 'So-and-so stole my pig' or whatever. The entire tribe would participate in the discussions. Sometimes the aggrieved parties would fail to resolve their differences and might decide to fight over it. In this case, the two parties might agree to fight to the death in front of the entire tribe. My understanding is most traditional societies worked this way, in America and in Europe.

Wars were settled the same way. Two armies would come face to face and the chieftains would shout abuse/arguments at each other and sometimes, everyone would agree to just go home and forget about it. Sometimes each side would appoint a champion and the two champions would fight to the death and the entire war would be settled with the death of one man. This is what 'Champion' originally meant.

Only modern 'Civilised' societies actually organise to make sure millions of people die in these kind of disputes.
 
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You're presenting it as if a large army marched through every nomad tribe and forced them to settle down, which imo, is far from reality.
To call my comment a "presentation" is to overstate it substantially. It is far more of a "musing".

And if the impression I gave is of a large army taking over by force, let me correct that now. I would see it far more as a gradual encroachment and lots of natural rights being replaced by provided ones - the threat of force would surely be present though. I could see how initially these sorts of changes could seem entirely natural. Indeed, I think we have just been through another period of governance expansion - most people seem to think it entirely natural to be pricked and filled with 'medicine'.

Is it better to have a pre-agreed tax or rather have bandits take your wife and children as tax? Why do you think people agreed to be taxed, if not out of lesser of two evils?
My gosh, did you agree?

I have never agreed, will never agree, cannot conceive of agreeing. I only pay what taxes I have to - under threat of force. I would even say that it is a moral duty not to pay into the system - I do not support a system that assumes my consent and agreement, steals from me, and then uses the money to indoctrinate the next generation, as well as many other unconscionable acts.

There's no escaping this loop, unless you restructure the way Earth and humans function. If you believe it's "just a story", then present another mechanism that works by observation.
I could ask you the reverse - when have you ever seen bandits taking things from you? Show me from your experience how the idea of bandits is not a story. I personally only have one example - government force (police, military). And this is the case in point.

It is mostly born out of necessity.
We agree here. Most people love the appearance sense of safety and security that the governance structure claims it provides from bandits and terrorists and what have you. I argue that it also causes the violence, or the appearance of violence in order to secure its position. But, no doubt people want their governing (perhaps because they are indoctrinated into it), so the governance system is here to stay, and inflicted on all of us.

Obviously the system will encourage people to view its ways favorably.
That does not mean the opposite is the correct way of life.
Well, I can't get past the idea that I don't consent to another's authority over my life - and this is what government (govern minds) is. I don't accept governance. So if you are saying the opposite to being governed, ie independence or freedom is not the correct way of life, I disagree.
 
My understanding is that Celtic and Viking societies had no rulers except in times of crisis (famine, being raided by bandits etc) in which case they would appoint a leader who would guide them through the crisis then resign afterwards.

There was no government unless everybody agreed they need one.

I looked into the Viking (specifically Icelandic) method of governance back in my mainstream education days. It was, in many ways, an "anarcho-capitalist" structure in which power was completely decentralized. Once a year, villages would "elect" someone to represent them and they would travel to a centralized event called a "Thing". The Thing is where villagers would air their grievances, criminals would be punished, and land disputes would be settled. In viking law - criminals would be exiled from their particular village, meaning that they were fair game to be robbed, assaulted, or worse in the wilderness outside of local civilization. These Things even established "rules of engagement" around sacking villages. After deciding on which village to sack - Viking bandits were required to announce their intention to the local leader of the village ahead of time, allowing them the option to clear the village and relinquish their resources before violence occurred. Once the raid was completed, it was against viking law to leave even a single loaf of bread behind, as it was considered cruel to leave miniscule resources in the village for the women and children to fight over. Mainstream history has always tried to paint barbarians as lawless, but when you actually look into it you'll find that even without an "Archon" ruling over them they still respected a code of laws in their daily activities.

This style of government seemed to work for hundreds of years* (always an asterisk here, as who knows what the real timelines actually were) - until the influence of the Church began influencing the election of these "Cheiftans" to represent villages, paving the way to an eventual collapse of the system and the installation of a traditional monarchy.
 
I have a suspicion that the history of money is the thread that, when pulled upon, will unravel a lot of other mysteries.

Michael Hudson is a mainstream economic historian who has written a series of books about money in the ancient world. The conspiracy researcher Joseph P. Farrell writes about money. I also learned a lot from reading the extensive commentary of an anonymous monetary historian who goes by the name Mefobills at Unz.com. His comment history is well worth reading in its entirety. The Unz Review He describes how barley was the first money and that credit and debt precede what we think of as "money". Ancient city-states each issued their own sovereign currency in the following way. Citizens deposited grain at the temple. In return credit was extended to them using various stand-ins for the value of the grain, bronze disks or wooden tally sticks for example. These stand-ins for value were then exchanged among the population as currency. It was a closed system and the temple was able to both introduce credit exceeding the quantity of grain when necessary as well as forgive debt when it threatened the proper functioning of society.

Metal coins came much later and disrupted everything. My understanding is the following. Metal coins had no "home" the way sovereign currencies did. They were freely circulating and could not be "redeemed" anywhere. Both Mefobills and Joseph Farrell underline the way that stateless merchants (Jews for Mefobills, Venetians for Farrell) cleverly used freely-circulating metal currency, falsely seen as possessing value "in itself", to speculatively pit one city-state's sovereign currency against another's. Gold and silver were alternately made artificially scarce (by hoarding) and artificially abundant in order to raise and lower the exchange rate on the real sovereign currencies issued by city-states and convertible into real wealth, allowing coin owners to subvert and capture previously self-contained economies. The crucial "problem" with metal coinage was that debts enumerated in precious metal could not be released by an act of the Temple or king since such money was intrinsically extraterritorial. This is the origin of the situation in which we find ourselves today, in which the black magick of compound interest has created an absurd predicament in which the total amount of debt on the books is far greater than the total amount of "money" on Earth, yet there is no mechanism by which the impossible, unpayable debts can be forgiven. In ancient Mesopotamia, kings would simply jubilee such debt and start over. The bankers know this of course and they know it is a problem. I suspect this is one of the reasons they are so desperate to set up a world government RIGHT NOW. Only a world government would have the power to jubilee debt in any significant way. Now, to be clear, I do not think these people have good intentions just because debt forgiveness is one of their platforms. I think that their fantasy is to put all the old debt in a pile, light it on fire, and start fresh with a new sovereign currency based on the old city-state model. Only this time, since the sovereign currency they introduce (a CBDC) will be global and "outsideless", there will be no threat of a freely circulating stateless currency undermining it. I believe they intend for this currency to be the Final Form of Money and once it is rolled out, credit for regular people will become a historical artifact. The world will be locked once and for all in a fixed caste system. It is tempting to see sovereign currency as "good" and freely-circulating currency as "bad", since the current economic pickle we are in has been caused by the unchecked proliferation of the latter, but I think we need to be careful here. There are at least two kinds of totalitarianisms out there. There is the old-fashioned tyranny of the Annunaki who ruled the city-states and issued sovereign currency, and the more "sophisticated" and less visible tyranny of the hidden money manipulators. The former ("Enlil") will always be interested in controlling and micromanaging the lives of their citizens. They may imagine themselves to be "benevolent tyrants", but freedom is impossible under such a system. The latter ("Enki") will on the contrary encourage freedom and license, knowing that social atomization only accelerates the invisible mechanism that will sooner or later transfer all of the real resources into their pockets, at which point they can move on to the next country. The former is Gentile Totalitarianism, also known as Fascism, and the latter is Jewish Totalitarianism, which always has a new name. A lot of people who are aware of the destructive power of the second form of totalitarianism, today in the ascendant, are nostalgic for the first system. I think this is a terrible error. Yes, Hitler broke the usury mechanism, but his goal was not to liberate Germans, it was to recreate the old sovereign money system in which the Party functioned as the God-King who decided what the common good was. The so-called MEFO bills issued by the National Socialist government were a return to sovereign money. The new money worked. However...you couldn't quit your job in Nazi Germany. Trade unions were abolished. The state told you what job they wanted you to do and you had to obey. The role of the citizen was to work for the common good. This sounds maybe nice in theory, but in practice it always means that someone else gets to decide what is good for the collective. In the case of Nazi Germany, for example, it meant that the state might come by in a Gaswagen and kill your handicapped kids while you're at work. It meant that the freak Albert Speer got to decide what Berlin would look like. Had the Nazis won the war, the entire city would have been razed and rebuilt to look like this:

1671816612372.png

Le Corbusier, also a Fascist obsessed with (delusional) fantasies of the "common good", wanted to raze the Right Bank of Paris and replace it with this:

1671816675609.png

I have lived in Germany. When I first arrived I was enthusiastic about the sense of collective responsibility that is still present there, especially concerning money. With time, however, I came to loathe it. The collective moral conscience has a shadow side. People police each other. If you break the rules, people feel justified in letting you know. This becomes dangerous when the rules themselves become immoral. The problem is that the "healthy" desire to be moral and responsible is weaker than the perverse desire to masochistically submit to rules and sadistically enforce them on others. The latter will always win. In France, the corona rules were enforced by sick, sadistic cops and bureaucrats and followed by citizens out of fear and base conformity, mostly. In Germany, there was no need for cops. The citizens were overjoyed at this exciting new opportunity to shame each other and masochistically prove their subservience to the Common Good. If the French were simple bourgeois cowards, the Germans were enthusiastic snitches who self-brainwashed into Believing that they were saving the world. I do not trust individuals or organizations who claim to work for the common good, because perverts will always target and subvert such institutions.

These are the dangers of Gentile Totalitarianism, or to be more precise, Territorial Totalitarianism (as opposed to Deterritorialized Totalitarianism). There is a funny throwaway line in Orwell's "Down and Out in London in Paris" in which a colorful White Russian emigre working in a restaurant tells Orwell to "Trust a snake before a Jew, and a Jew before a Greek, but never trust an Armenian". At the time, Jews, Greeks, and Armenians all functioned as more or less stateless merchant mafias. Today Jews appear to have run the table and largely cornered the niche, but the niche is not "Jewish" in essence. It is an immanent consequence of the existence of multiple territorial states. In a world in which there are multiple states, it is a simple logical inevitability, from a purely game theory point of view, that a non-territorial financial entity will sooner or later arise and "rediscover" the same old tricks for undermining and subverting territorial power. Some group functioning as "Jews" will always arise because the existence of competing territorial states demands the existence of a kind of "financial aether" or rather a financial pseudo-ether that articulates the isolated territories via some form of nomadic money.

We see it happening still today. Russia and China are Territorial Totalitarianisms. They fancy themselves as eternal. In these countries no criticism of power is permitted. The State is pompous. The leaders are always in danger of floating off into the narcissistic delusion that their fantasy of what is good for the people is what is actually good for the people. Some of the time, of course, they really do help the people. They favor religions and social structures that are stable and conservative. The role of the citizen in these nations is to serve as a pseudopod of the state and make children who will also be pseudopods of the state.

The United States, NATO, etc., on the other hand, are Deterritorialized Totalitarianisms. Under such a system the individual has much more freedom but the end result always seems to be a breakdown of civilization and a descent into perversion and chaos. Highly intelligent people often chafe under the rigid social structures that average citizens need. They desire freedom, independence, forbidden knowledge, and sexual liberty and they imagine themselves capable of dealing with the dangerous consequences in a way that average people are not. Hence the spontaneous "Judeophilia" of intellectuals throughout history. Joseph Farrell remarks that it is only after freely circulating coins began to "invade" the previously self-contained city-states of Greece in the "6th century BC" that what we call philosophy emerged. The metal money that had no home and could be exchanged for anything was the first avatar for a primordial substance supporting visible reality. It must have been an exciting time. Descartes is the modern philosopher who is credited with inventing the "transcendental subject" which might be described as a free-floating universal subjectivity independent of any territorial markers. I think it is no coincidence that he lived in Amsterdam, the city in which Jews invented modern capitalism (they took it to England after that, more below) with its promise of limitless pleasure and the escape from rigid social and class structures that so many brilliant people desire. Here is what Descartes wrote to his friend Balzac (not the writer) in 1631:

You must excuse my enthusiasm if I invite you to choose Amsterdam for your retreat, and to prefer it not only to the monasteries of the Franciscans and the Carthusians that many good folk retire to, but also to the finest houses in France and Italy, and even to the famous Hermitage where you spent the past year. No matter how polished a country house may be, it always lacks countless conveniences that are found only in towns, and even the solitude one hopes to find there turns out never to be quite perfect. There, I agree, you’ll find a stream that would make the greatest talkers start day-dreaming, and a valley so secluded that it could make them ecstatic; but it can easily happen that you also have neighbours who will bother you at times, and their visits will be even more of a nuisance than the ones you receive in Paris. In this large town where I live [Amsterdam], by contrast, everyone but myself is engaged in trade, and thus is so focused on his own profit that I could live here all my life without ever being noticed by anyone. I take a walk each day amid the bustle of the crowd, with as much freedom and repose as you could get in your avenues, and I don’t attend to the people I see, any more than I would to the trees in your woods or the animals grazing there.

Descartes can perhaps be forgiven for not understanding that the prosperity he saw around him was the result of a speculative bubble, and that all bubbles pop sooner or later. My guess is that the smarter people in the deterritorialized camp see that the current debt scam, which is the first global debt scam, must therefore also be the last debt scam, since there is no longer anywhere else to flee. There is no more "elsewhere" and a deterritorialized state needs a constant supply of untapped elsewheres to parasitize if it wishes to continue functioning. I believe this is the key to understanding the Covid and Ukraine charades. The stateless mafia wants to go territorial. They want to go "legit". They see that their only hope for survival is jumping horses. They are running the United States, or more precisely the dollar, into the ground one final time, in one final debt binge, to impoverish everyone on Earth once and for all, at which point all debt will be jubileed and the global control grid will be rolled out. It will be an old-school territorial control grid. Consumerism will disappear. Russia and China are scripted to "win" this staged conflict. The BIS is fully on-board with the transition. I guess that the problem is that there are just too many people with too much money and power out there who want the deterritorial debt system to continue just a while longer.

The commenter Mefobills regularly brings up the Tally Stick accounting system that was used in England from the moment the "Jewes" with their "metal money" were expelled in 1290 until the Bank of England was chartered in 1694. He describes this as the Big Bang event of modern finance. What is a tally stick?

What tally sticks tell us about how money works

Tallies were a way of recording debts with a system that was sublimely simple and effective. The stick would contain a record of the debt, for example: "£9 4s 4d from Fulk Basset for the farm of Wycombe". Fulk Basset was a Bishop of London in the 13th Century. He owed his debt to King Henry III. Now comes the elegant part. The stick would be split in half, down its length from one end to the other. The debtor would retain half, called the "foil". The creditor would retain the other half, called the "stock" - even today, British bankers use the word "stocks" to refer to debts of the British government. Because willow has a natural and distinctive grain, the two halves would match only each other. Of course, the Treasury could simply have kept a record of these transactions in a ledger somewhere. But the tally stick system enabled something radical to occur. If you had a tally stock showing that Bishop Basset owed you £5, then unless you worried that he wasn't good for the money, the tally stock itself was worth close to £5 in its own right.
If you wanted to buy something, you might well find that the seller would be pleased to accept the tally stock as a safe and convenient form of payment. So the tally sticks themselves became a kind of money, a particular sort of debt that could be traded freely, circulating from person to person until it utterly separated from Bishop Basset and a farm in Wycombe.


1671818231580.png

The second part of the article, however, is where it gets interesting for us here. Look what happened in 1834:

Those tally sticks, by the way, met an unfortunate end. The system was finally abolished and replaced by paper ledgers in 1834 after decades of attempts to modernise. To celebrate, it was decided to burn the sticks - six centuries of irreplaceable monetary records - in a coal-fired stove in the House of Lords, rather than letting parliamentary staff take them home for firewood. Burning a cartload or two of tally sticks in a coal-fired stove is a wonderful way to start a raging chimney fire. So it was that the House of Lords, then the House of Commons, and almost the entire Palace of Westminster - a building as old as the tally stick system itself - was burned to the ground.

So we have another one of these mysterious fires. This one conveniently wipes out six hundred years of "irreplaceable monetary records", making sure that no one knows how money worked in the past.

If you go to the Wikipedia article for the fire, it gets even better. We have an architectural competition:

In 1836 a competition for designs for a new palace was won by Charles Barry. Barry's plans, developed in collaboration with Augustus Pugin, incorporated the surviving buildings into the new complex.

And we also have a lunatic asylum:

In 1852 the Commons was finished, and both Houses sat in their new chambers for the first time; Queen Victoria first used the newly completed royal entrance. In the same year, while Barry was appointed a Knight Bachelor, Pugin suffered a mental breakdown and, following incarceration at Bethlehem Pauper Hospital for the Insane, died at the age of 40.

We have predictive programming:

In the late eighteenth century a committee of MPs predicted that there would be a disaster if the palace caught fire. This was followed by a 1789 report from fourteen architects warning against the possibility of fire in the palace; signatories included Soane and Robert Adam. Soane again warned of the dangers in 1828, when he wrote that "the want of security from fire, the narrow, gloomy and unhealthy passages, and the insufficiency of the accommodations in this building are important objections which call loudly for revision and speedy amendment." His report was again ignored.

On Soane's Wikipedia page we read this: On 16 October 1788 he succeeded Sir Robert Taylor as architect and surveyor to the Bank of England. He would work at the bank for the next 45 years, resigning in 1833.

So he was working for the Bank of England.

We also read this: Soane, who was a UGLE Freemason, was employed to extend Freemasons' Hall, London in 1821 by building a new gallery.

We have lost documents:

The British standard measurements, the yard and pound, were both lost in the blaze; the measurements had been created in 1496. Also lost were most of the procedural records for the House of Commons, which dated back as far as the late 15th century. The original Acts of Parliament from 1497 survived, as did the Lords' Journals, all of which were stored in the Jewel Tower at the time of the fire.

I suppose the "surviving" documents were forged after the fact.

We have celebrities selling the narrative:

The novelist Charles Dickens, in a speech to the Administrative Reform Association, described the retention of the tallies for so long as an "obstinate adherence to an obsolete custom"; he also mocked the bureaucratic steps needed to implement change from wood to paper.

Why on Earth was Charles Dickens railing in public against a few cartloads of old sticks being stored in the basement?
 
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I have a suspicion that the history of money is the thread that, when pulled upon, will unravel a lot of other mysteries.

Michael Hudson is a mainstream economic historian who has written a series of books about money in the ancient world. The conspiracy researcher Joseph P. Farrell writes about money. I also learned a lot from reading the extensive commentary of an anonymous monetary historian who goes by the name Mefobills at Unz.com. His comment history is well worth reading in its entirety. The Unz Review He describes how barley was the first money and that credit and debt precede what we think of as "money". Ancient city-states each issued their own sovereign currency in the following way. Citizens deposited grain at the temple. In return credit was extended to them using various stand-ins for the value of the grain, bronze disks or wooden tally sticks for example. These stand-ins for value were then exchanged among the population as currency. It was a closed system and the temple was able to both introduce credit exceeding the quantity of grain when necessary as well as forgive debt when it threatened the proper functioning of society.

Metal coins came much later and disrupted everything. My understanding is the following. Metal coins had no "home" the way sovereign currencies did. They were freely circulating and could not be "redeemed" anywhere. Both Mefobills and Joseph Farrell underline the way that stateless merchants (Jews for Mefobills, Venetians for Farrell) cleverly used freely-circulating metal currency, falsely seen as possessing value "in itself", to speculatively pit one city-state's sovereign currency against another's. Gold and silver were alternately made artificially scarce (by hoarding) and artificially abundant in order to raise and lower the exchange rate on the real sovereign currencies issued by city-states and convertible into real wealth, allowing coin owners to subvert and capture previously self-contained economies. The crucial "problem" with metal coinage was that debts enumerated in precious metal could not be released by an act of the Temple or king since such money was intrinsically extraterritorial. This is the origin of the situation in which we find ourselves today, in which the black magick of compound interest has created an absurd predicament in which the total amount of debt on the books is far greater than the total amount of "money" on Earth, yet there is no mechanism by which the impossible, unpayable debts can be forgiven. In ancient Mesopotamia, kings would simply jubilee such debt and start over. The bankers know this of course and they know it is a problem. I suspect this is one of the reasons they are so desperate to set up a world government RIGHT NOW. Only a world government would have the power to jubilee debt in any significant way. Now, to be clear, I do not think these people have good intentions just because debt forgiveness is one of their platforms. I think that their fantasy is to put all the old debt in a pile, light it on fire, and start fresh with a new sovereign currency based on the old city-state model. Only this time, since the sovereign currency they introduce (a CBDC) will be global and "outsideless", there will be no threat of a freely circulating stateless currency undermining it. I believe they intend for this currency to be the Final Form of Money and once it is rolled out, credit for regular people will become a historical artifact. The world will be locked once and for all in a fixed caste system. It is tempting to see sovereign currency as "good" and freely-circulating currency as "bad", since the current economic pickle we are in has been caused by the unchecked proliferation of the latter, but I think we need to be careful here. There are at least two kinds of totalitarianisms out there. There is the old-fashioned tyranny of the Annunaki who ruled the city-states and issued sovereign currency, and the more "sophisticated" and less visible tyranny of the hidden money manipulators. The former ("Enlil") will always be interested in controlling and micromanaging the lives of their citizens. They may imagine themselves to be "benevolent tyrants", but freedom is impossible under such a system. The latter ("Enki") will on the contrary encourage freedom and license, knowing that social atomization only accelerates the invisible mechanism that will sooner or later transfer all of the real resources into their pockets, at which point they can move on to the next country. The former is Gentile Totalitarianism, also known as Fascism, and the latter is Jewish Totalitarianism, which always has a new name. A lot of people who are aware of the destructive power of the second form of totalitarianism, today in the ascendant, are nostalgic for the first system. I think this is a terrible error. Yes, Hitler broke the usury mechanism, but his goal was not to liberate Germans, it was to recreate the old sovereign money system in which the Party functioned as the God-King who decided what the common good was. The so-called MEFO bills issued by the National Socialist government were a return to sovereign money. The new money worked. However...you couldn't quit your job in Nazi Germany. Trade unions were abolished. The state told you what job they wanted you to do and you had to obey. The role of the citizen was to work for the common good. This sounds maybe nice in theory, but in practice it always means that someone else gets to decide what is good for the collective. In the case of Nazi Germany, for example, it meant that the state might come by in a Gaswagen and kill your handicapped kids while you're at work. It meant that the freak Albert Speer got to decide what Berlin would look like. Had the Nazis won the war, the entire city would have been razed and rebuilt to look like this:


Le Corbusier, also a Fascist obsessed with (delusional) fantasies of the "common good", wanted to raze the Right Bank of Paris and replace it with this:


I have lived in Germany. When I first arrived I was enthusiastic about the sense of collective responsibility that is still present there, especially concerning money. With time, however, I came to loathe it. The collective moral conscience has a shadow side. People police each other. If you break the rules, people feel justified in letting you know. This becomes dangerous when the rules themselves become immoral. The problem is that the "healthy" desire to be moral and responsible is weaker than the perverse desire to masochistically submit to rules and sadistically enforce them on others. The latter will always win. In France, the corona rules were enforced by sick, sadistic cops and bureaucrats and followed by citizens out of fear and base conformity, mostly. In Germany, there was no need for cops. The citizens were overjoyed at this exciting new opportunity to shame each other and masochistically prove their subservience to the Common Good. If the French were simple bourgeois cowards, the Germans were enthusiastic snitches who self-brainwashed into Believing that they were saving the world. I do not trust individuals or organizations who claim to work for the common good, because perverts will always target and subvert such institutions.

These are the dangers of Gentile Totalitarianism, or to be more precise, Territorial Totalitarianism (as opposed to Deterritorialized Totalitarianism). There is a funny throwaway line in Orwell's "Down and Out in London in Paris" in which a colorful White Russian emigre working in a restaurant tells Orwell to "Trust a snake before a Jew, and a Jew before a Greek, but never trust an Armenian". At the time, Jews, Greeks, and Armenians all functioned as more or less stateless merchant mafias. Today Jews appear to have run the table and largely cornered the niche, but the niche is not "Jewish" in essence. It is an immanent consequence of the existence of multiple territorial states. In a world in which there are multiple states, it is a simple logical inevitability, from a purely game theory point of view, that a non-territorial financial entity will sooner or later arise and "rediscover" the same old tricks for undermining and subverting territorial power. Some group functioning as "Jews" will always arise because the existence of competing territorial states demands the existence of a kind of "financial aether" or rather a financial pseudo-ether that articulates the isolated territories via some form of nomadic money.

We see it happening still today. Russia and China are Territorial Totalitarianisms. They fancy themselves as eternal. In these countries no criticism of power is permitted. The State is pompous. The leaders are always in danger of floating off into the narcissistic delusion that their fantasy of what is good for the people is what is actually good for the people. Some of the time, of course, they really do help the people. They favor religions and social structures that are stable and conservative. The role of the citizen in these nations is to serve as a pseudopod of the state and make children who will also be pseudopods of the state.

The United States, NATO, etc., on the other hand, are Deterritorialized Totalitarianisms. Under such a system the individual has much more freedom but the end result always seems to be a breakdown of civilization and a descent into perversion and chaos. Highly intelligent people often chafe under the rigid social structures that average citizens need. They desire freedom, independence, forbidden knowledge, and sexual liberty and they imagine themselves capable of dealing with the dangerous consequences in a way that average people are not. Hence the spontaneous "Judeophilia" of intellectuals throughout history. Joseph Farrell remarks that it is only after freely circulating coins began to "invade" the previously self-contained city-states of Greece in the "6th century BC" that what we call philosophy emerged. The metal money that had no home and could be exchanged for anything was the first avatar for a primordial substance supporting visible reality. It must have been an exciting time. Descartes is the modern philosopher who is credited with inventing the "transcendental subject" which might be described as a free-floating universal subjectivity independent of any territorial markers. I think it is no coincidence that he lived in Amsterdam, the city in which Jews invented modern capitalism (they took it to England after that, more below) with its promise of limitless pleasure and the escape from rigid social and class structures that so many brilliant people desire. Here is what Descartes wrote to his friend Balzac (not the writer) in 1631:

You must excuse my enthusiasm if I invite you to choose Amsterdam for your retreat, and to prefer it not only to the monasteries of the Franciscans and the Carthusians that many good folk retire to, but also to the finest houses in France and Italy, and even to the famous Hermitage where you spent the past year. No matter how polished a country house may be, it always lacks countless conveniences that are found only in towns, and even the solitude one hopes to find there turns out never to be quite perfect. There, I agree, you’ll find a stream that would make the greatest talkers start day-dreaming, and a valley so secluded that it could make them ecstatic; but it can easily happen that you also have neighbours who will bother you at times, and their visits will be even more of a nuisance than the ones you receive in Paris. In this large town where I live [Amsterdam], by contrast, everyone but myself is engaged in trade, and thus is so focused on his own profit that I could live here all my life without ever being noticed by anyone. I take a walk each day amid the bustle of the crowd, with as much freedom and repose as you could get in your avenues, and I don’t attend to the people I see, any more than I would to the trees in your woods or the animals grazing there.

Descartes can perhaps be forgiven for not understanding that the prosperity he saw around him was the result of a speculative bubble, and that all bubbles pop sooner or later. My guess is that the smarter people in the deterritorialized camp see that the current debt scam, which is the first global debt scam, must therefore also be the last debt scam, since there is no longer anywhere else to flee. There is no more "elsewhere" and a deterritorialized state needs a constant supply of untapped elsewheres to parasitize if it wishes to continue functioning. I believe this is the key to understanding the Covid and Ukraine charades. The stateless mafia wants to go territorial. They want to go "legit". They see that their only hope for survival is jumping horses. They are running the United States, or more precisely the dollar, into the ground one final time, in one final debt binge, to impoverish everyone on Earth once and for all, at which point all debt will be jubileed and the global control grid will be rolled out. It will be an old-school territorial control grid. Consumerism will disappear. Russia and China are scripted to "win" this staged conflict. The BIS is fully on-board with the transition. I guess that the problem is that there are just too many people with too much money and power out there who want the deterritorial debt system to continue just a while longer.

The commenter Mefobills regularly brings up the Tally Stick accounting system that was used in England from the moment the "Jewes" with their "metal money" were expelled in 1290 until the Bank of England was chartered in 1694. He describes this as the Big Bang event of modern finance. What is a tally stick?

What tally sticks tell us about how money works

Tallies were a way of recording debts with a system that was sublimely simple and effective. The stick would contain a record of the debt, for example: "£9 4s 4d from Fulk Basset for the farm of Wycombe". Fulk Basset was a Bishop of London in the 13th Century. He owed his debt to King Henry III. Now comes the elegant part. The stick would be split in half, down its length from one end to the other. The debtor would retain half, called the "foil". The creditor would retain the other half, called the "stock" - even today, British bankers use the word "stocks" to refer to debts of the British government. Because willow has a natural and distinctive grain, the two halves would match only each other. Of course, the Treasury could simply have kept a record of these transactions in a ledger somewhere. But the tally stick system enabled something radical to occur. If you had a tally stock showing that Bishop Basset owed you £5, then unless you worried that he wasn't good for the money, the tally stock itself was worth close to £5 in its own right.
If you wanted to buy something, you might well find that the seller would be pleased to accept the tally stock as a safe and convenient form of payment. So the tally sticks themselves became a kind of money, a particular sort of debt that could be traded freely, circulating from person to person until it utterly separated from Bishop Basset and a farm in Wycombe.



The second part of the article, however, is where it gets interesting for us here. Look what happened in 1834:

Those tally sticks, by the way, met an unfortunate end. The system was finally abolished and replaced by paper ledgers in 1834 after decades of attempts to modernise. To celebrate, it was decided to burn the sticks - six centuries of irreplaceable monetary records - in a coal-fired stove in the House of Lords, rather than letting parliamentary staff take them home for firewood. Burning a cartload or two of tally sticks in a coal-fired stove is a wonderful way to start a raging chimney fire. So it was that the House of Lords, then the House of Commons, and almost the entire Palace of Westminster - a building as old as the tally stick system itself - was burned to the ground.

So we have another one of these mysterious fires. This one conveniently wipes out six hundred years of "irreplaceable monetary records", making sure that no one knows how money worked in the past.

If you go to the Wikipedia article for the fire, it gets even better. We have an architectural competition:

In 1836 a competition for designs for a new palace was won by Charles Barry. Barry's plans, developed in collaboration with Augustus Pugin, incorporated the surviving buildings into the new complex.

And we also have a lunatic asylum:

In 1852 the Commons was finished, and both Houses sat in their new chambers for the first time; Queen Victoria first used the newly completed royal entrance. In the same year, while Barry was appointed a Knight Bachelor, Pugin suffered a mental breakdown and, following incarceration at Bethlehem Pauper Hospital for the Insane, died at the age of 40.

We have predictive programming:

In the late eighteenth century a committee of MPs predicted that there would be a disaster if the palace caught fire. This was followed by a 1789 report from fourteen architects warning against the possibility of fire in the palace; signatories included Soane and Robert Adam. Soane again warned of the dangers in 1828, when he wrote that "the want of security from fire, the narrow, gloomy and unhealthy passages, and the insufficiency of the accommodations in this building are important objections which call loudly for revision and speedy amendment." His report was again ignored.

On Soane's Wikipedia page we read this: On 16 October 1788 he succeeded Sir Robert Taylor as architect and surveyor to the Bank of England. He would work at the bank for the next 45 years, resigning in 1833.

So he was working for the Bank of England.

We also read this: Soane, who was a UGLE Freemason, was employed to extend Freemasons' Hall, London in 1821 by building a new gallery.

We have lost documents:

The British standard measurements, the yard and pound, were both lost in the blaze; the measurements had been created in 1496. Also lost were most of the procedural records for the House of Commons, which dated back as far as the late 15th century. The original Acts of Parliament from 1497 survived, as did the Lords' Journals, all of which were stored in the Jewel Tower at the time of the fire.

I suppose the "surviving" documents were forged after the fact.

We have celebrities selling the narrative:

The novelist Charles Dickens, in a speech to the Administrative Reform Association, described the retention of the tallies for so long as an "obstinate adherence to an obsolete custom"; he also mocked the bureaucratic steps needed to implement change from wood to paper.

Why on Earth was Charles Dickens railing in public against a few cartloads of old sticks being stored in the basement?
Loads of crap (the fasceeees-nazeeeees part) mixed with some few good intuitions.

In any case, regarding the more historical part, sources are what is lacking in this supposedly well researched theory. I'm not going to buy books, expecially if all the crappy part is also part of them, so I would like to know what books (sources) are these deductions based upon. To be more specific: what ancient sources were studied to deduct all these theories.
 
Loads of crap mixed with some few good intuitions.

In any case, regarding the more historical part, sources are what is lacking in this supposedly well researched theory. I'm not going to buy books, expecially if all the crappy part is also part of them, so I would like to know what books (sources) are these deductions based upon.
Silveryou, I will now attempt to do a little historical research, on very recent history this time, namely the history of this thread. First, you come in and in your typical aggressive, misanthropic manner, you criticize and derail the discussion. After your tantrum, you disappear, but now the mystery user Jd755 (whose profile is locked so that I cannot even see his other contributions) appears and does a quick drive-by trolling on another comment. I publish my post. Not five minutes later, Jd755 trolls me this time with a petty, throwaway demand for better proof, which also happens to be your obsession. Five minutes after that, you "like" Jd755's post and then sulk and pout again because my post is not good enough for you. How interesting that both of you are online at the same time and watching each other's back.

Silveryou, following your impeccable research standards, do I have enough documentation yet to advance the hypothesis that Jd755 is a sock puppet that you have created to derail this thread the way you derail so many other threads?
 
Silveryou, I will now attempt to do a little historical research, on very recent history this time, namely the history of this thread. First, you come in and in your typical aggressive, misanthropic manner, you criticize and derail the discussion. After your tantrum, you disappear, but now the mystery user Jd755 (whose profile is locked so that I cannot even see his other contributions) appears and does a quick drive-by trolling on another comment. I publish my post. Not five minutes later, Jd755 trolls me this time with a petty, throwaway demand for better proof, which also happens to be your obsession. Five minutes after that, you "like" Jd755's post and then sulk and pout again because my post is not good enough for you. How interesting that both of you are online at the same time and watching each other's back.

Silveryou, following your impeccable research standards, do I have enough documentation yet to advance the hypothesis that Jd755 is a sock puppet that you have created to derail this thread the way you derail so many other threads?
Yes I'm Jd755, well spotted!🥱

My take about your 'impeccable' research is that you are a perfect example of the new kind of 'researchers' populating this forum. Lots of assumptions based on someone else's research (the Unz part) without any doubt and/or curiosity about the sources used to achieve such great accomplishments. Show what your great theories are based upon, such as was asked and done when this forum (and the one preceeding this) was started. I ask sources, not infinite blabbering without a foundation.

Thank you
 
Silveryou, I will now attempt to do a little historical research, on very recent history this time, namely the history of this thread. First, you come in and in your typical aggressive, misanthropic manner, you criticize and derail the discussion. After your tantrum, you disappear, but now the mystery user Jd755 (whose profile is locked so that I cannot even see his other contributions) appears and does a quick drive-by trolling on another comment. I publish my post. Not five minutes later, Jd755 trolls me this time with a petty, throwaway demand for better proof, which also happens to be your obsession. Five minutes after that, you "like" Jd755's post and then sulk and pout again because my post is not good enough for you. How interesting that both of you are online at the same time and watching each other's back.

Silveryou, following your impeccable research standards, do I have enough documentation yet to advance the hypothesis that Jd755 is a sock puppet that you have created to derail this thread the way you derail so many other threads?

JD755, JD55, and KD755 are all most likely the same account, and if so has been in and out of SH since the original site (I haven’t personally verified this myself but this is a best guess based off general behavior and shared username). My guess he deleted his old account and started a new one, seeing as his old handle on this version of SH is not registered anymore.

Having had multiple DM conversations with both JD and Silveryou I can assure you that they are not the same person, or working together in some capacity.

Not everyone on this site who participates agrees on overall theories, much less the specific details of any particular theory. Not everyone on this site who asks for sources is a shill or a provocateur. In some cases there are those who want to learn more about information provided on the site, and a reading list, or a source is a great way to provide that for them. In other circumstances it could be seen as “how much do you actually know that is verifiable, versus what is potentially secondhand or shoddy information?” There are no golden calves on this site, anything and everything has a right to be questioned. Whether or not someone who is asked to provide such information chooses to, is a different story.

Let’s try and limit the offtopic back and forth in this thread moving forward and stick to the nature of the OP.
 
Yes I'm Jd755, well spotted!🥱

My take about your 'impeccable' research is that you are a perfect example of the new kind of 'researchers' populating this forum. Lots of assumptions based on someone else's research (the Unz part) without any doubt and/or curiosity about the sources used to achieve such great accomplishments. Show what your great theories are based upon, such as was asked and done when this forum (and the one preceeding this) was started. I ask sources, not infinite blabbering without a foundation.

Thank you
You're a tiresome individual but I will respond to you as you have impugned my honor ("no doubt or curiosity", "loads of crap"). First of all, regarding the commenter Mefobills on Unz, if you read all of his posts, totaling almost a million words, or several books' worth, as I have, you will understand that he is a highly insightful and knowledgeable character who has no choice but to write pseudonymously because much of what he says would get him lynched professionally, to wit, the fact that he is a National Socialist. You may choose to disregard this source because it is a random guy commenting on a website, but you would be doing yourself a disservice. Since my goal here is to synthesize information in the service of a more general argument, I provided a link after touching upon a few of his arguments so that anyone curious might be able to go deeper. You will find lots of details there.

Regarding monetary history, I also gave credit to the authors Michael Hudson and Joseph P. Farrell. I have been made to understand that more precise sources are demanded, so you or Jd755 might want to read Hudson's And Forgive them their Debts: Lending, Foreclosure and Redemption from the Bronze Age to the Jubilee Year or Farrell's Babylon's Banksters or Financial Vipers of Venice. I am not a historian. I don't always remember exact references. That is why I am participating on an open forum rather than attempting to deliver papers at conferences. Most of my intellectual effort goes towards constructing a big picture and sometimes details get lost in the process. You correctly argue that a big picture without details is just speculation. Ideally there is a dialectic between the two and each has its place. I attempted to include both in my contribution. What you call "infinite blabbering" might also be considered the natural associative process. You might also recognize that this is how conversations work. The original post is about money and land enclosure. I stayed within that theme and introduced a few new leads (tally sticks, the role of metal coinage in ancient Greece) along with my own reflections. I also speculated on a possible philosophical relationship between different monetary systems and the concept of territoriality, which are the two themes of the thread, and provided a citation from Descartes to that end. I also encountered some surprising information regarding the burning of the Parliament Buildings, which I included in case someone more knowledgeable than I might see a connection that I am incapable of seeing.

This was my contribution. Your contribution is constant criticism over form and method. You have not introduced a single argument or piece of information that advances the speculation in this thread.
 
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You're a tiresome individual but I will respond to you as you have impugned my honor ("no doubt or curiosity" "loads of crap"). First of all, regarding the commenter Mefobills on Unz, if you read all of his posts, totaling almost a million words, or several books' worth, as I have, you will understand that he is a highly insightful and knowledgeable character who has no choice but to write pseudonymously because much of what he says would get him lynched professionally, to wit, the fact that he is a National Socialist. You may choose to disregard this source because it is a random guy commenting on a website, but you would be doing yourself a disservice. In any case, I provided a link after touching upon a few of his arguments. You will find lots of details there.
You are overstating your accountability. You are on a forum where it was the norm to give primary sources. I'm not discussing the political views of Mefobills and I'm sure he is an accountable author. The problem is just your questionable opinions nonchalantly spread throughout your post as if the most normal thing to do, and also smelling of propaganda to be fair.

Regarding monetary history, I also gave credit to the authors Michael Hudson and Joseph P. Farrell. I have been made to understand that more precise sources are demanded, so you or Jd755 might want to read Hudson's And Forgive them their Debts: Lending, Foreclosure and Redemption from the Bronze Age to the Jubilee Year or Farrell's Babylon's Banksters or Financial Vipers of Venice. I am not a historian. I don't always remember exact references. That is why I am participating on an open forum rather than attempting to deliver papers at conferences. Most of my intellectual effort goes towards constructing a big picture and sometimes details get lost in the process. What you call "infinite blabbering" might also be considered the natural associative process. You might also recognize that this is how conversations work. The original post is about money and land enclosure. I stayed within that theme and introduced a few new leads (tally sticks, the role of metal coinage in ancient Greece) along with my own reflections. I also speculated on a possible philosophical relationship between different monetary systems and the concept of territoriality, which are the two themes of the thread, and provided a citation from Descartes to that end. I also encountered some surprising information regarding the burning of the Parliament Buildings, which I included in case someone more knowledgeable than I might see a connection that I am incapable of seeing.
This is exactly the point I'm making when I say that you are a perfect example of this new kind of contributors. You are demanding us to believe in "million words" as you say and to read entire books by Hudson and Farrell (I wonder if you read it, aside recommending them). Not only that but you are totally unaware of the eventual original sources used by those authors, which is what I'm interested the most and common practice to share in the old days of this forum. That said I'm not a historian but I stick to the original purpose of the forum which was not building castles in the air as you do (cause you are unaware of the sources, and build upon authors simply because you like them), but trying to discuss the sources searching for clues of a manipulation and/or a different history to be told. ALL KD's threads were set this way. Who was KD?

This was my contribution. Your contribution is constant criticism over form and method. You have not introduced a single argument or piece of information that advances the speculation in this thread.
This thread is about speculation and only that. I respect the author of this thread but I oppose the form, method and scope of creating new stories out of thin air based on the presumed authority of authors and without mentioning a single original source. You are taking things for granted and I will criticize your methodology of creating narratives without a firm ground (and obviously your blatant propaganda sold as opinions).

So once again, dear psychologist, if you read all those million words what I'm asking should be pretty simple. What sources are your opinions based upon?
Little example for the hard-headed: you say "The crucial "problem" with metal coinage was that debts enumerated in precious metal could not be released by an act of the Temple or king since such money was intrinsically extraterritorial."
Where these informations were taken from? I'm not talking about some book written in 1975 by your psycho collegue. I'm talking about the ancient sources from which this narrative was created.

If you think what I'm asking is not in line with the thread you are far off. I'm not opposing the existence of the thread, but the way it is carried on with its thousand suppositions without a source.

Thank you again
 
You are demanding us to believe in "million words" as you say and to read entire books by Hudson and Farrell (I wonder if you read it, aside recommending them). Not only that but you are totally unaware of the eventual original sources used by those authors, which is what I'm interested the most and common practice to share in the old days of this forum.
I read the books. It is impossible to construct synthetic arguments while obsessively going back to primary sources. At some point you just trust the secondary source and use it to build a higher-level argument. This is a speculative history forum, not an Oxford colloquium. You baselessly accuse me, a complete stranger, of being "totally unaware" of the sources rather than simply asking me for them in a POLITE way. How am I supposed to see you as an interlocutor of good faith when you cannot stop yourself from denigrating others in this way? You do it constantly, I have noticed it before on other threads. Say I am reading a Michael Hudson book. Having satisfied myself that he is an author of good faith, I relax my hermeneutic paranoia and allow myself to enter into his argument. On page 75 or whatever there's the photo of the cuneiform tablet with the legend "Tablet A.45.BX, debt release". I don't read cuneiform, so I take his word that the tablet says what he claims. You seem to be suggesting that the only valid form of research on this website is the examination of original sources. You're right, that IS fascinating, but in this case it is beyond the scope of anyone who does not read Akkadian and have access to the British Museum archives, which is to say, anyone posting on this website, including you. And I am not asking you to read a million words, I am simply pointing you to a million words in case you find my thirty words based on those million words interesting.
ALL KD's threads were set this way. Who was KD?
Since when is this website nothing but an homage to KD? Yes, I learned a lot from his posts, some of which were extremely speculative. Who was KD? That's a good question. Wildheretic, a former contributor to the original Stolen History website, claimed the original KD stole content from him as well as from Google-translated Russian blogs. Jef Demolder speculates that KD might have been some kind of AI project. Miles Mathis also sees something fishy in the original KD. Personally I have no idea who KD was, nor do I necessarily adhere to any of these theories, but I have no intention of copying his methodology just because Silveryou wants me to.
Little example for the hard-headed: you say "The crucial "problem" with metal coinage was that debts enumerated in precious metal could not be released by an act of the Temple or king since such money was intrinsically extraterritorial."
Where these informations were taken from? I'm not talking about some book written in 1975 by your psycho collegue. I'm talking about the ancient sources from which this narrative was created.
This is simple logic. The Canadian government cannot get out of debts monetized in US dollars. It can only unilaterally modify debts monetized in Canadian dollars. A city-state can do whatever it wants with debts that are monetized in the currency it creates. Metal money of the type that began to circulate among the Greek city-states is by its very nature accountable to no one. It "is" value. It cannot be changed by fiat as the value of sovereign currency can. My language was perhaps imprecise but the internal logic of the idea is easy enough to grasp. My source for this claim is the Farrell book I mentioned earlier, Financial Vipers of Venice. I don't have the book with me and don't remember the original texts. All I remember is Farrell's argumentation and documentation being satisfactory when I was reading the book. I am not going to stop myself from making an argument that may interest others or stimulate reflection because I left the book at home while I am traveling. And I note the dismissive way you refer to "some book written in 1975 by your psycho colleague".
The problem is just your questionable opinions nonchalantly spread throughout your post as if the most normal thing to do, and also smelling of propaganda to be fair.
Yes, I include my opinions, is that against the rules? And the fact that you include a softening rhetorical "to be fair" does not make your accusation that I am spreading propaganda any less slanderous or dishonorable. The irony here is that the posts I often find myself skipping when reading through threads on this website are YOURS, because you are unfailingly abrasive, aggressive, obnoxious, demanding, and unfriendly to others. I guess in your mind you are upholding rigorous standards but to my mind something is wrong with this picture. People who are honestly trying to figure things out ought to be generous and friendly until their interlocutors demonstrate themselves to be bad faith actors. Especially on a speculative history forum. There are polite ways to ask for sources or challenge sloppy thinking. "That's an interesting idea, I would be curious to get a more precise source." But you always jump straight to in-your-face accusations and that is not the way that honest people help each other towards the truth. I cannot be the first person who has noticed this.
 
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I read the books. It is impossible to construct synthetic arguments while obsessively going back to primary sources. At some point you just trust the secondary source and use it to build a higher-level argument. You baselessly accuse me of being "totally unaware" of the sources. How am I supposed to see you as an interlocutor of good faith when you cannot stop yourself from denigrating others in this way? You do it constantly, I have noticed it before on other threads. Say I am reading a Michael Hudson book. Having satisfied myself that he is an author of good faith, I relax my hermeneutic paranoia and allow myself to enter into his argument. On page 75 or whatever there's the photo of the cuneiform tablet with the legend "Tablet A.45.BX, debt release". I don't read cuneiform, so I take his word that the tablet says what he claims. You seem to be suggesting that the only valid form of research on this website is the examination of original sources. You're right, that IS fascinating, but in this case it is beyond the scope of anyone who does not read Akkadian and have access to the British Museum archives, which is to say, anyone posting on this website, including you. And I am not asking you to read a million words, I am simply pointing you to a million words in case you find my thirty words based on those million words interesting.
First of all you have a prejudice towards me and you are explicitely saying here.

Second, it was you calling me misanthrope who went personal, while I only criticized what you were saying and not your peson, and that says much of your person at this point.

Third, I'm criticizing the TOTAL LACK of sources and not the impossible task to provide tablets from Mesopotamia or something like that, so even in this case you are just doing an exibition of rethoric and nothing more.

You are saying it right though. You have no interest in criticizing the historical narratives but are just building on top of them because they seem right to you. And you cannot accept the fact that someone points that to you, which is typical.

Since when is this website nothing but an homage to KD? Yes, I learned a lot from his posts, some of which were extremely speculative. Who was KD? That's a good question. Wildheretic, a former contributor to the original Stolen History website, claimed the original KD stole content from him as well as from Google-translated Russian blogs. Jef Demolder speculates that KD might have been some kind of AI project. Miles Mathis also sees something fishy in the original KD. Personally I have no idea who KD was, nor do I necessarily adhere to any of these theories, but I have no intention of copying his methodology just because Silveryou wants me to.
Miles Mathis? The Freemason? Ok.
I'm not asking you to follow my orders. I also doubt you are capable of producing something coherent historically wise.
I'm just asking for sources and criticising your blatant propaganda.
As for the second I see it's not something you appreciate, which is comprehensible.
As for the first... am I allowed to ask you for sources in order to verify if your castles in the air have somewhat grounded in reality?

This is simple logic. The Canadian government cannot get out of debts monetized in US dollars. It can only unilaterally modify debts monetized in Canadian dollars. A city-state can do whatever it wants with debts that are monetized in the currency it creates. Metal money of the type that began to circulate among the Greek city-states is by its very nature accountable to no one. It "is" value, it does not represent value. Its value therefore cannot be changed by fiat as the value of sovereign currency can. My language was perhaps imprecise but the internal logic of the idea is easy enough to grasp. My source for this claim is the Farrell book I mentioned earlier, Financial Vipers of Venice. I don't have the book with me and don't remember the original texts. All I remember is Farrell's argumentation and documentation being satisfactory when I was reading the book. I am not going to stop myself from making an argument that may interest others or stimulate reflection because I left the book at home while I am traveling. And I note the dismissive way you refer to "some book written in 1975 by your psycho colleague".
You noted the less important part and still miss the most important. If you can't understand what an original source is then there's some problem with you. I'll try to ask again but at this point it's obvious that you simply have no answer because you don't have the book with you (and probably never had an interest in verfying sources, btw).
I'm talking about the ancient sources from which this narrative was created.
I've underlined it for you so that you can see it better.

Yes, I include my opinions, is that against the rules? And the fact that you include a softening rhetorical "to be fair" does not make your accusation that I am spreading propaganda any less slanderous or dishonorable. The irony here is that the posts I often find myself skipping when reading through threads on this website are YOURS, because you are unfailingly abrasive, aggressive, obnoxious, demanding, and unfriendly to others. I guess in your mind you are upholding rigorous standards but to my mind something is wrong with this picture. People who are honestly trying to figure things out ought to be generous and friendly until it has been proven that they are bad faith actors. Especially on a speculative history forum. There are polite ways to ask for sources or challenge sloppy thinking. "That's an interesting idea, I would be curious to get a more precise source." But you always jump straight to in-your-face accusations and that is not the way that honest people help each other towards the truth. I cannot be the first person who has noticed this.
You already proved, and now confirming, that you have some kind of malevolence and prejudice towards me. I criticize your method and your blatant propaganda because it is "unfailingly abrasive, aggressive, obnoxious, demanding, and unfriendly to others", and worst thing you don't even realize it. In any case I attacked the message, not the person, which is your specialty since you started with your 'misanthrope' label.

And it's ok. I don't care to be liked, expecially when I have to pass post #10000 with speculations based on absolutely nothing or other people's speculations, in an endless circles of castles in the air. I don't understand what knowledge you guys are thinking to achieve when it's all built on shaky grounds. But that is you, so be it. You are what you are.
 
“You’ll own nothing. And you’ll be happy. What you want you’ll rent”

The name Ranters reappears 150 years later, in the 1820s, when the term was applied to a certain group of Methodists. From their midst came the first organizers of the English trade union movement, men who had acquired the skills of popular orators in the sect.

The movement whose members became known as Diggers had sharply defined socialist characteristics. Externally, it expressed itself (beginning in 1649) in the seizure of communal land by small groups of people for joint tillage. This attempt at organizing communes, however, was a mere gesture, which led to no practical consequences, and it was the Diggers’ literary activity that proved to have lasting significance.

Gerrard Winstanley was the most important figure among them. In several pamphlets he proclaimed his basic idea–the illegitimacy of private ownership of land. He reported that he had had a vision, “a voice and a revelation,” and was preaching what had been revealed to him: "And so long as we or any other maintain this civil property, we consent still to hold the creation down under that bondage it groans under, and so we should hinder the work of restoration and sin against light that is given unto us, and so through the fear of the Resh (man) lose our peace. And that this civil property is the curse is manifest thus: those that buy and sell land, and are landlords, have got it either by oppression or murder or theft; and all landlords live in the breach of the seventh and eighth commandments, "Thou shalt not steal nor kill. "(“The True Levellers’ Standard Advanced: or, The State of Community opened, and Presented to the Sons of Men.”)

Winstanley viewed trade and money in equally negative terms: “For buying and selling is the great cheat that robs and steals the earth one from another. …We hope,” he says, “that people shall live freely in the enjoyment of the earth, without bringing the mark of the Beast in their hands or in their promise; and that they shall buy wine and milk without money or without price, as Isaiah speaks.”

Gerrard Winstanley - Wikipedia
 
Silveryou, I will now attempt to do a little historical research, on very recent history this time, namely the history of this thread. First, you come in and in your typical aggressive, misanthropic manner, you criticize and derail the discussion. After your tantrum, you disappear, but now the mystery user Jd755 (whose profile is locked so that I cannot even see his other contributions) appears and does a quick drive-by trolling on another comment. I publish my post. Not five minutes later, Jd755 trolls me this time with a petty, throwaway demand for better proof, which also happens to be your obsession. Five minutes after that, you "like" Jd755's post and then sulk and pout again because my post is not good enough for you. How interesting that both of you are online at the same time and watching each other's back.

Silveryou, following your impeccable research standards, do I have enough documentation yet to advance the hypothesis that Jd755 is a sock puppet that you have created to derail this thread the way you derail so many other threads?
Search results for query: Jd755
Search results for query: Jd755
 
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Maybe you could start a different thread about original source documents and standards of proof? My opinion is that the Indian Vedas are probably the closest thing We have to original source documents of the kind Silveryou requires. I haven't read them, but I've spoken to people who have.

To Jd755 - are you aware of the fundamental law of logic which states that no proof (of any kind, of anything) is possible without an initial act of faith? You always have to start by believing something before you can attempt to prove it. On another thread you state that there's no proof that Atoms exits, which is true - however that doesn't change the fact that there are trillions of dollars worth of industry and technology based on the assumption that matter is made from atoms. Have you read the work of Karl Popper?

Frostychuds statement 'I have a suspicion that the history of money is the thread that, when pulled upon, will unravel a lot of other mysteries' sounds right to me. Also his statements about how there are two types of money, and one can be used to manipulate the other is valuable information to me. I had not seen this explained so simply before.
 
To Jd755 - are you aware of the fundamental law of logic which states that no proof (of any kind, of anything) is possible without an initial act of faith? You always have to start by believing something before you can attempt to prove it. On another thread you state that there's no proof that Atoms exits, which is true - however that doesn't change the fact that there are trillions of dollars worth of industry and technology based on the assumption that matter is made from atoms. Have you read the work of Karl Popper?
Here we go again.
Assumptions are not reality. Its fine to hold an assumption whilst its veracity can ascertained or dismissed and sharing of such a process would be of immense value in establishing a demonstrable, repeatable methodology, however its blindingly obvious that few put assumptions made by others to such rigour so we drown in a mire of speculation and subjectivity.

Never heard of the Popper bloke until now. Lo and behold he made his name as a psychologist scientist or a philosopher of science the definition of his work is fluid.
How did you establish this statement to be true?
So am I right in saying you haven't done anything to establish the truth of this statement?
 
To call my comment a "presentation" is to overstate it substantially. It is far more of a "musing".

And if the impression I gave is of a large army taking over by force, let me correct that now. I would see it far more as a gradual encroachment and lots of natural rights being replaced by provided ones - the threat of force would surely be present though. I could see how initially these sorts of changes could seem entirely natural. Indeed, I think we have just been through another period of governance expansion - most people seem to think it entirely natural to be pricked and filled with 'medicine'.
Well , looking back, neither did I present it correctly with the large army thing, but meant the same thing - a superior brute force gradually bashing every group into static submission. The question is was it done in a unified form due to a globalist agenda, or as a consequence of the direction humans developed.

My gosh, did you agree?

I have never agreed, will never agree, cannot conceive of agreeing. I only pay what taxes I have to - under threat of force. I would even say that it is a moral duty not to pay into the system - I do not support a system that assumes my consent and agreement, steals from me, and then uses the money to indoctrinate the next generation, as well as many other unconscionable acts.

Correct if I'm wrong, but you're not against the idea of tax, you're against the things it is used for. Were you to live in a perhaps smaller community where you can transparently see your tax money being used for things that benefit you, you wouldn't be against it. There are still such cases in the world, but it is fringe, of course.
The Amish for example pay their taxes, but retain control over their values as a group, so it's harder for government to force medicine or indoctrinate their children. The masses however are divided and do not subscribe to a 'clan', so they're just 'sheep to the slaughter' for the government. And no, being right or left wing is not a 'clan'.

To understand, you'd have to go back further in time, to a perhaps more speculative past, where it was indeed in the interest of people to pay tax to a local warlord or to a stronger tribe, for sponsorship. (aka tribute system)

And now this beast has already over developed itself. It doesn't necessarily mean it was bad when it started. Many things were embraced at first out of good will and benefit to the masses.
Internet gave you certain freedoms at first, now it is used to monitor and surveil you. Imagine in several centuries people would say that internet was forced on the people to control them, without knowing that everyone gladly benefitted from embracing it, at first. I speculate there was a similar case with tax, but organized government tax is different. Perhaps it was easy to sell it because people already paid tax in a different form.

I could ask you the reverse - when have you ever seen bandits taking things from you? Show me from your experience how the idea of bandits is not a story. I personally only have one example - government force (police, military). And this is the case in point.
Perhaps that's the view from where you live. But it's not like that at all.
Bandits developed over the years, none calls them bandits anymore, but they still are.
In my home city, which is now quite a developed place, every single business pays tribute to the mob. Anyone who doesn't pay, gets a hand grenade into his shop. Happens a few times a year. Strolling around, you won't even believe things are like that.
There are many regions in the world where criminal groups rule de facto, and citizens pay them tribute. It is a fact that in our world, any place with loose government rule is ruled by organized crime or violent militias. The only exceptions might be very remote places in Tibet or Siberia and the likes.


We agree here. Most people love the appearance sense of safety and security that the governance structure claims it provides from bandits and terrorists and what have you. I argue that it also causes the violence, or the appearance of violence in order to secure its position. But, no doubt people want their governing (perhaps because they are indoctrinated into it), so the governance system is here to stay, and inflicted on all of us.


Well, I can't get past the idea that I don't consent to another's authority over my life - and this is what government (govern minds) is. I don't accept governance. So if you are saying the opposite to being governed, ie independence or freedom is not the correct way of life, I disagree.

We all aspire to be free, I did not say it is incorrect way of life, I'm saying that's how things work by observation.
The only place where they would leave you alone is if you keep away from civilization, that's the truth.
In the far east and in India, there are groups of westerners who made "free of authority" communities. When you look into it, you find they all pay the local mob for 'protection".

You don't have to be happy about being taxed, but only to realize there is a game and competition going on. The rich are playing by smart, legal and illegal tax evasion. The criminals play by evading tax and taxing others instead. Both they and you don't like the idea of being governed, so they play the cards they got. Of course, some play both cards, being both the rich guy and the crime lord. (And the politician too, in some countries)
 
Correct if I'm wrong, but you're not against the idea of tax, you're against the things it is used for. Were you to live in a perhaps smaller community where you can transparently see your tax money being used for things that benefit you, you wouldn't be against it. There are still such cases in the world, but it is fringe, of course
I won't go on and on about this, but no - I really am against forcible extraction of wealth from another. And it is pretty amazing to me that most people are not, and will even call it "good"!!

You distinguish between 'bandits' and 'government'. For me in essence they are the same thing. The difference to me is that government is worse - it attempts to train its citizens to believe that it is a force for good (with great success), where in reality it is just the biggest, worst bandit. The very worst people govern us and placidly most seem to accept it and even want more! Government is happy to take those who can play the game - the more duplicitous they are, the more they draw people in, the better they can lie to your face, the better they do.

Anyway, if you have to choose between bandits and government, I think bandits are preferable. There is no illusion that they are moral - if you are brave enough, you can choose to arm yourself and take action against them without much hesitation. You stand little chance of freedom once the banditry has grown to governmental proportions.

You don't have to be happy about being taxed, but only to realize there is a game and competition going on. The rich are playing by smart, legal and illegal tax evasion. The criminals play by evading tax and taxing others instead. Both they and you don't like the idea of being governed, so they play the cards they got. Of course, some play both cards, being both the rich guy and the crime lord. (And the politician too, in some countries)
Taxes are immoral. But you are trying to tell me its ok to force people to give their money to an entity that will then use the money to exert even more force and control. How can that ever be right? It is not a free choice. In most places, we are told there did not used to be any income tax - well, that's changed - we all pay now. And right now, afaik, we are building a technocratic governance control grid, that will micromanage resources to individuals.

We can see the direction of travel. And - in principle, from what you say - you're cheering this on. The legal system, as well as the religious, education, entertainment, etc, systems, - all are in service to the governance agenda. If you are happy to play the provided game that's fine - you go get yours, why not? But really all that's going on is that you are supporting the growth of a system that seeks yours and everyone's enslavement. It sounds like you would be happy if you pay less taxes by some tax wheeze, ie being clever/doing well within the rat run that is created for you, but I think you fail to realise that you are 'within', and helping the system, its laws, its money, its authority.
 
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