The Erdstall Tunnels

[aj00148]

I came across this earlier today - it’s truly puzzling.

The Erdstall tunnels are found all over Germany, particularly in Bavaria. They are narrow in construction, only one way in and out. No archeological evidence as to what purpose they served can be found. Some included a small seating notches in a larger room at the end of the tunnel but there’s nothing in terms of a carving or wall fresco that indicate their use.

Bavaria has around 700 of these alone & 2000 have been found across Europe. Some are found under buildings & others are concealed in the forest. I’m willing to believe there’s even more yet undiscovered. They are very narrow in width (about 1-1.5 meters), small enough for a child, but not really pratical for an adult. The tunnels are about 80-100 feet in length. Additionally, the airflow is limited, making breathing difficult.

There’s about a 400 year period estimated for their construction (800-1100 AD). However this dating is still considered flimsy.

My question is - if you were deciding to build these tunnels - would the purpose of making them small be to keep something larger out. Or is it because those constructing it were actually smaller in stature? And if there wasn’t a way to get fresh flowing air in them - then why bother to build them 100 feet long? Also - wouldn’t this present difficulty during construction? As for their use - opinions vary.

Possible uses of the Erdstall:

1) A temporary emergency shelter. Maybe a place for women and children to hide in instances of an invasion? But there’s nothing to indicate this is practical long term because of airflow.
2) Underground storage - maybe livestock or foodstuffs- but the lack of food containers or feces makes this seem unlikely.
3) Some believe these were religious constructions, perhaps made when paganism was forced underground in Europe.

Nothing is written on them from texts of the era. My instinct tells me they were to hide from someone or something but what? In many cases - the tunnels were dug through solid granite and polished thereafter. This is a huge effort by today’s standards- even more back then with primitive machinery.

I posted some pictures of maps showing their locations and pictures inside the tunnels.

Links:
/x/ - Paranormal » Thread #21938506

Hideouts or Sacred Spaces?: Experts Baffled by Mysterious Underground Chambers - DER SPIEGEL - International

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Any theories?

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[Archive]

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Username: Banta
Date: 2020-05-11 04:10:13
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They are very narrow in width (about 1-1.5 meters), small enough for a child, but not really pratical for an adult.

I just recently posted about tunnels found in Copenhagen that are about the same size.

Secret "19th Century" Tunnel Found in Copenhagen, Denmark

They're dated to the 19th century, but that's based off of wood found at the site, so it's possible the tunnels were there already and someone modified them at a later date (archeologists thought 17th century originally, still far too late for these tunnels, but I take all dates with a full shaker of salt these days.)

Maybe nothing to it, but the size made me raise an eyebrow.

 

[Archive]

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Username: FlyChaos
Date: 2020-05-11 05:38:51
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Or is it because those constructing it were actually smaller in stature?

not in 800-1100AD Request: Medieval Throne Sizes

 

[codis]

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Username: codis
Date: 2020-05-11 06:18:08
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They're dated to the 19th century, but that's based off of wood found at the site, so it's possible the tunnels were there already and someone modified them at a later date (archeologists thought 17th century originally, still far too late for these tunnels, but I take all dates with a full shaker of salt these days.)

Maybe nothing to it, but the size made me raise an eyebrow.

I had been in a few museum-like tunnels in the Ore Mountain region (to the North/East of Bavaria).
These were silver mines, and the miners kept their "drift" tunnels equally small, to save time and energy. Only around the ore veins, they got bigger.
Not sure if this is in any way related to Erdstall tunnels.

 

[Archive]

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Username: Red Bird
Date: 2020-05-11 12:24:24
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This is so wild and to think we hardly ever hear about these tunnels. I’m amazed some archaeologist has never never done a study of tunnels of the world and Then written a book on them. It would be wildly popular I think. Maybe somebody has, but they need an agent to get it out there.
Also, now that I think of it They seem to be a particularly ‘Unsharing’ and non capitalistic bunch. Probably because they are too tied in with schools and nonprofits And there is no need to bestir themselves. Their funding entities Make them keep their eyes in pot shards, and not the whole picture, and have nondisclosure agreements. It’s so odd to me that more don’t go rogue.
This would be a good project for a layperson who likes to travel.
At least back in the day (2 months ago) when you had a job and could move around.

 

[fabiorem]

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Username: fabiorem
Date: 2020-05-11 15:02:46
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Dwarf tunnels, no doubt. Legend says they live below the ground.
People dont believe it, because now they have a new set of superstitions, called "science".

 

[codis]

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Username: codis
Date: 2020-05-11 16:12:16
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I thought of escape tunnels, like some castles have them. Just missing a proper scenario - what to escape from...

Dwarf tunnels, no doubt. Legend says they live below the ground.

At least in montane regions with mining traditions, there are actually plenty of dwarf myths. Perhaps going all the way back to the norse legends of Svartalfheim - which would translate to "black elf's home".

 

[Myrrinda]

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Username: Myrrinda
Date: 2020-05-11 21:51:36
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Many years ago when I was still living with my parents I saw something about these tunnels on TV! Thank you for reminding me
What I don't remember, are there water stains in them? Could it be for when a flooding occurs? Maybe there was a time with heavy rains and they figured it wouldn't stop in their lifetime, so they dug those tunnels. Climate Change! But instead of protesting they actually solved the problem. BUT - if there are no signs of water running through, my hypothesis is of course wrong. Just a thought I wanted to throw out there.

 

[aj00148]

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Username: aj00148
Date: 2020-05-29 17:39:43
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Thank you for the replies. I've given it more thought and I still cannot conclusively decide what the intended use was.

A few months back, my girlfriend and I watched the Descent, a horror movie about the cave divers who encounter underground humanoid beings. Then the 1985 classic C.H.U.D. also comes to mind. These are fictional depictions, but I wouldn't place it outside of the realm of possibility that underground humans or humanoids exist or existed at some point in time. The Peruvian mythos includes tales of the Muki, who were mining elves.

Underground dwellers aside, I feel that these tunnels served a religious purpose in pre-Christian Germany -or- the tunnels served the pagan communities for the purpose of secret worship after Christianity was adopted by the Merovingian Franks. I am not sure if pagans were widely persecuted in the Frankish kingdoms, as they were during the rest of late-antiquity. The lack of religious adornment or evidence of adornment may strike against this theory. Regardless, what little is known of Germanic paganism was compiled by Snorri Sturluson of Iceland, so we do not have a resource contemporary to Germany at the time.

 

[fabiorem]

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Username: fabiorem
Date: 2020-06-03 04:53:33
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After Fomenko, I'm not sure if christianity was actually the jewish-based religion official history portrays it to be. I'm inclined to think it was part of paganism, and only turned away from it during the reformation, then becoming the religion we know today.

Think about it, a religion which puts sculptured buttocks in a column, inside a cathedral, can't be the same religion which turned sex into something evil and sinful. The description of the temples for Ishtar and Venus, with their sacred prostitution, could possibly have been the case for the european cathedrals, and were throwed in the past after the reformation.

And then there are the gargoyles. I know they had a function for water dumping, but the builders could have used angels in their place, like happens with some fountains, for example. Certainly this religion didn't have a problem with demons, as is portrayed today. This problem was probably introduced in the reformation. In official history, the ancient greeks didn't regard demons as evil, but as spirits of the Earth, intermediaries between gods and men.

 

[Archive]

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Username: mischief
Date: 2020-06-03 07:24:25
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Is it possible the the air vents have filled in over time? You mentioned some went through Granite- that indicates serious effort was taken to build those particular tunnels.
So it would stand to reason that they were built for a very good reason, which unfortunately, we just dont understand, nor are we experiencing the same reasons for such hard work.

 

[usselo]

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Username: usselo
Date: 2020-06-03 09:55:10
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Links:
/x/ - Paranormal » Thread #21938506

Any theories?

What a fascinating set of images available in that link. I'm not sure they are all from erdstallen but assuming they are:

I'd like to see a more detailed image of the chains in this 'ornament' and this 'ornament'. If one or more of the chain links are slightly open, then it is possible that we are looking at miners' tags 'boards'. Not that the tunnels were necessarily mines but if people were going in and out - particularly in times of high fatality risk - then tag-carrying would be commonsense.

With regard to the first 'ornament', those long-chained larger-looking tags would be a pain to stash on one's person and so it's possible that they were:

1. Tags for attaching to movable equipment, ie 'wagon tags', or
2. Were chains from which smaller tags were hung, with each chain representing a different area of the cavern. In this scenario, miners/occupants would take smaller tags from each chain and return them as they left. This meant everyone would know who was still inside and which part of the system they were likely to be in.

And we should consider the possibility that if these were shelters/bunkers, then it is possible that people would pick up a tag when they ventured outside, not inside.

Those schluepfen (slips) rule these out as mines and this is why it would be very useful to see or understand more about the nature of the system in which these 'ornaments' were found.

The dating:

• "Coal from a fire pit at Bad Zell has been dated between 1030 and 1210."
• "Coal from a heading in Höcherlmühle has been dated between the late 10th and mid-11th century."
• "A slip passage at Rot am See has been enhanced with stones to make it narrower with the stone additions dated to between 1034 and 1268."
• "Coal from Trebersdorf was dated 950 to 1050"
• "coal from Kühlried was dated to 950 to 1160."
• "Ceramics found in St. Agatha have been dated to the 12th century which seems to be the latest date of usage."

We should of course bear in mind the usual (for us) concerns about how reliable dating methods really are. That said, it gives a cluster of dates that are very close to the 1,000 AD date that Wild Heretic proposes in 1516: Noah in Tartary (and in more depth in the link to his site in that thread) for the date of the Deluge.

And remembering the description of a dragon posted by igneous, along with the mountain of evidence (which may be real or made up) that earlier folks were trying to protect themselves from events (rocks, dust, fogs, fires, plagues and gases) coming from the sky, we can speculate that people were:

1. Trying to protect themselves from something sky-borne

2. They were relatively successful, until ultimately overwhelmed by a flood, or

3. They were first 'air-bombed' by flood/mudflood, then dug into the loess and rocks for shelter and to fight on

with immediate consequences that various folks here are trying to extract from amid the fakes and forgeries, and long-term consequences that we still endure.

The 'Gunderstrop' antlered figure grasping a torque (symbolic spark gap?) and a serpent could be Dagda, who's character and mythological contexts are discussed here. He always reminds me of the large figure carved into one of the walls of St Clements Caves in Hastings, UK. Briefly shown at minute 3:00 inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2RCGaEAtnM&t=2m59s. His identify used to be described as unknown and 'mysterious' by the cave tour-guides.

 

[aj00148]

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Username: aj00148
Date: 2020-06-03 14:14:12
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The second ornament is very interesting to me - the second row could be the Cross of Wotan, which like many other symbols, has multiple meanings. It could be representative of the seasonal cycles, but to me, it reminds me of the procession of the zodiac. Or it could be a solar symbol. But it is telling, as it is religious symbiology within the tunnels. The symbol is found in ancient Phoenician script as the Teth, which means "wheel". In Hebrew, it became the Tov, meaning "good". But wheel is more telling to me, as it relates to the procession of the zodiac.

There's the inclusion of the Greek cross in the third section, similar to the second row, but without the circle. I find the difference in the Greek and Latin cross telling - the Greek cross is more representative of Christianity's original roots in Hebrew and pagan Gnosticism and mysticism. The Greek cross, as a symbol, could again be related to the procession of the zodiac, the four alchemical elements, or something along the lines of "from the One came the many." Where as the Latin cross takes the form of a human, a reminder of the crucifixion narrative. But again, and perhaps I'm stretching, the Latin cross, as a symbol, seems to be indicative of worshiping the human form, to be bound & enslaved to the human form. Not to ascend beyond the human form. And to die for the human form.

The snake symbol at the bottom could be a version of the Lamedh, which in both Hebrew and Arabic means "for" or "to", which would make sense if the attached rings at the bottom were removed if a person was entering or exiting the tunnels.

Finally at the top row are the little men - if you look closely, you'll see they are walking with mohawks and giant erections. It reminds me of the Egyptian hieroglyph He for "praise", which in turn is related to the Hebrew Hei. Hei or Ha is found in the Hamsa, a palm shaped talisman used as protection against the evil eye.

Finally the little bowl at the top has 12 circles, which again, reminds me of the 12 signs of the zodiac.

I would be interested to know the total number of each set of symbols, as it could have further significance.

As a disclaimer, I could be totally wrong about the meaning of the symbols on it, as I am always looking for a syncretism in everything. But thank you for sharing the photos, they are really intriguing.