“Subaltern voices” and the Marxist revision of History

feralimal

Core Member
Active Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2020
Messages
1,140
Reaction score
2,171
BTW I first heard the term 'subaltern' here:
SH Archive - Ask Pro | - Questions for History Professionals

In postcolonial studies and in critical theory, the term subaltern designates and identifies the colonial populations who are socially, politically, and geographically excluded from the hierarchy of power of an imperial colony and from the metropolitan homeland of an empire. Antonio Gramsci coined the term subaltern to identify the cultural hegemony that excludes and displaces specific people and social groups from the socio-economic institutions of society, in order to deny their agency and voices in colonial politics. The terms subaltern and subaltern studies entered the vocabulary of post-colonial studies through the works of the Subaltern Studies Group of historians who explored the political-actor role of the common people who constitute the mass population, rather than re-explore the political-actor roles of the social and economic elites in the history of India.
"subaltern designates and identifies the colonial populations who are socially, politically, and geographically excluded from the hierarchy of power"
from Subaltern (postcolonialism) - Wikipedia

'Subaltern' is a Marxist term and this "work" is a Marxist undertaking. Do history graduates realise this? Or care? Maybe its perceived as the right thing to do - to create history...?

Anyway - history is a big deal to Marxists.
On 28 August 1844, Marx met the German socialist Friedrich Engels at the Café de la Régence, beginning a lifelong friendship.[62] Engels showed Marx his recently published The Condition of the Working Class in England in 1844,[63][64] convincing Marx that the working class would be the agent and instrument of the final revolution in history
In collaboration with Engels, Marx also set about writing a book which is often seen as his best treatment of the concept of historical materialism, The German Ideology.[91] In this work, Marx broke with Ludwig Feuerbach, Bruno Bauer, Max Stirner and the rest of the Young Hegelians, while he also broke with Karl Grün and other "true socialists" whose philosophies were still based in part on "idealism". In German Ideology, Marx and Engels finally completed their philosophy, which was based solely on materialism as the sole motor force in history.
In late 1847, Marx and Engels began writing what was to become their most famous work – a programme of action for the Communist League. Written jointly by Marx and Engels from December 1847 to January 1848, The Communist Manifesto was first published on 21 February 1848.[104] The Communist Manifesto laid out the beliefs of the new Communist League. No longer a secret society, the Communist League wanted to make aims and intentions clear to the general public rather than hiding its beliefs as the League of the Just had been doing.[105] The opening lines of the pamphlet set forth the principal basis of Marxism: "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles".[106] It goes on to examine the antagonisms that Marx claimed were arising in the clashes of interest between the bourgeoisie (the wealthy capitalist class) and the proletariat (the industrial working class).
Karl Marx - Wikipedia

Historical materialism is Karl Marx's theory of history. Marx locates historical change in the rise of class societies and the way humans labor together to make their livelihoods.[1]
For Karl Marx and his lifetime collaborator, Friedrich Engels, historical materialism is the "View of the course of history which seeks the ultimate cause and the great moving power of all important historic events in the economic development of society, in the changes in the modes of production and exchange, in the consequent division of society into distinct classes, and in the struggles of these classes against one another."[2]
Historical materialism - Wikipedia

The idea of Marxism, subaltern voices and the deconstruction of this specific strand of false history probably merits its own thread around here, I reckon. I wouldn't say its the only reason for falsification of history and the generation of bs, but it is the primary driver of modern history creation in academia - and an easy strand to follow. I seem to bump into it in every article I read.
 
Last edited:
BTW I first heard the term 'subaltern' here:
SH Archive - Ask Pro | - Questions for History Professionals


"subaltern designates and identifies the colonial populations who are socially, politically, and geographically excluded from the hierarchy of power"
from Subaltern (postcolonialism) - Wikipedia

'Subaltern' is a Marxist term and this "work" is a Marxist undertaking. Do history graduates realise this? Or care? Maybe its perceived as the right thing to do - to create history...?

Anyway - history is a big deal to Marxists.



Karl Marx - Wikipedia


Historical materialism - Wikipedia

The idea of Marxism, subaltern voices and the deconstruction of this specific strand of false history probably merits its own thread around here, I reckon. I wouldn't say its the only reason for falsification of history and the generation of bs, but it is the primary driver of modern history creation in academia - and an easy strand to follow. I seem to bump into it in basically every article I read.
This is indeed an important angle. A little background. To understand the role of Marx, you have to go back to Hegel. Marx's entire thought system can be seen as an inversion of Hegel's. To put it briefly, Hegel is considered the first philosopher of history. Before him, the goal of philosophy was to describe Being in static terms, as something solid existing outside of us. Hegel believed that Being was by nature dynamic, and that consciousness, or Geist, was an integral part of it. There is a permanent tension between "subject" and "substance" in Hegel's system that generates constant transformation on the level of objective reality as well as the subjective consciousness that perceives that reality. He believed that History was animated by a transcendental Geist whose "desire" was to attain a stable end state in which the objective and the subjective would coexist in perfect Absolute Knowledge. Whereas previous philosophers such as Descartes, Kant and Spinoza did not bother too much with concrete history, Hegel was very interested in it. Both "The Phenomenology of Spirit" and even more explicitly "The Philosophy of History" are explicitly concerned with tracking the evolution of Spirit through successive historical events. Hegel is a "dialectical" philosopher, meaning that he sees Being as a dialogue. Crucially, there is no way to step outside of the dialogue and observe it objectively. Consciousness is always caught up in the specific historical moment to which it belongs. Hegel calls this principle the "Cunning of Reason" or the "Ruse of History". In other words, it is never possible to understand the present moment because the Geist blinds us to it until we are "ready" to see it. What's more, it is never even really possible to understand the past, as certain latent potentialities in it do not reveal themselves until a certain amount of time has passed. This website is a perfect example of that. Reading through KD's mindblowing original posts, it is as if every dead event in history suddenly rose from the grave and said, "Not so fast, I still have something to say." Hegel suggests this is a structural principle of Being itself, namely that it only unfolds over time, and that the subjectivity that perceives and understands history after the fact is not just a passive observer but rather a participant in that Becoming.

If this sounds vague, don't blame me too much. Hegel is famous for his ultra-dense, opaque, and complicated writing.

So, on to Marx. Hegel believed that the motor of History was Spirit or Geist. Materialist translators have begun translating "Geist" as "Mind" rather than "Spirit" which I see as a sorry reflection on our reductionist times. The Satanist atheist Jew Marx believed that the motor of history was not Spirit but rather matter. Hence his famous statement that his goal was to "turn Hegel on his head". Marx went to Berlin to study under Hegel, but Hegel died of cholera in 1831 before Marx could attend his seminar. Hegel was the most famous philosopher in the world at that time and shortly before his death gave a famous speech that the Emperor himself listened to. So Marx never met Hegel, but he learned his system. Lenin spent the years between the 1905 failed revolution in the 1917 successful one living in Switzerland and studying Hegel's densest work, the "Science of Logic". In some ways Marx simply continues Hegel's work and in other ways he completely perverts it. The transition from Hegel to Marx can perhaps be seen as a reflection of the transformation within Freemasonry and other secret societies from a more or less Christian ideal of universal enlightenment to a more or less Jewish ideal of universal slavery. That said, there are troubling elements in Hegel already. I now suspect he was one of the most important architects of the Napoleonic Reset in Europe. Reading Hegel makes it easier to understand how the forgers pulled the operation off. Hegel was famously present in Jena in 1806 when Napoleon, the "living incarnation of the World Spirit", rode through town on horseback. Hegel supposedly observed the scene from his window. Napoleon was the World Spirit because he was bringing universal citizenship to Europe and "dialectically overcoming" an "incomplete" previous stage of History in which subjectivity was crushed by feudal despotism. Napoleon was the "objective" face of Spirit and Hegel, by observing, understanding, and reflecting Napoleon's actions into thought, made himself Spirit's "subjective" face and proclaimed the "End of History" in which humanity would finally attain "freedom".

I swallowed this stuff when I first read it twenty years ago. Now I suspect that "Napoleon" never existed as anything but a cutout and that therefore Hegel never saw him riding his horse through Jena. Which means he was lying. Now I see in Hegel's system nothing but standard esoteric doctrine translated into the pompous language of German Idealism. I suppose he was commissioned by the esoteric societies of which he was probably a member, if not the leader, to covertly spread their doctrine of Enlightenment, a "Great Work" which continues today. Take the bizarre unveiling of transgenderism in the last ten years. In my opinion, the only way to explain this phenomenon is as a concerted effort to induct as much of humanity as possible into Satanism without them even knowing. What's interesting is that we could argue that there is a deep opposition between a good "Hegelian" or spiritual transgenderism, which would be nothing but the realization that at the deepest level, consciousness is universal, and an evil "Marxist" or material transgenderism, which attempts psychotically to realize this esoteric insight on the level of the body, an operation which does not "raise" consciousness but rather destroys it. In other words, Satanism.

The question that I still have no answer for is whether the delusional, Satanic, materialist, Jewish, Marxist version of esoteric thought that is shoved down our throat every day was part of the plan from the beginning or rather an artificial takeover of it. Were Hegel and the other Enlightenment philosophers like Jefferson, who said so many good things, aware that the end goal of the Great Work was universal slavery? As I said, there are troubling elements in Hegel already. If Napoleon was fake, then Hegel knew it. If Hegel knew it, then he was actively concealing our true history from us. Perhaps he believed that this was the only way for humanity to evolve, like an adoptive parent waiting until a certain age to reveal the truth to an adopted child. Maybe this is even true. It is important to note that without realizing it, we have all internalized the Hegelian vision of history, which could be described as the tortuous ascension of man from a primitive state to a perfected state. With each important historical event, man is "purified" a little more. The French Revolution, the Civil War, the two World Wars, etc. When you begin to realize that these events are scripted and largely hoaxed, people like Hegel no longer seem so innocent. It seems less like humanity is evolving upwards and more like we are being enslaved and hypnotized, ritual by ritual. Then again, they may be saving the biggest reversal for last. And they do always seem to leave clues for those who are paying attention that the whole thing is a gigantic opera. What I mean is that the "default" vision of history is evolutionist because of Hegel and it is precisely his invisibility here that shows just how influential he is. There would be no Darwinism without Hegel, for example.

Hegel basically said, towards the end of his life, that the authoritarian Prussian state (which invented modern schooling and pushed bureaucracy to the next dehumanizing level) was the greatest thing since sliced bread and a necessary precondition for humanity to evolve to the next level. I am paraphrasing. From this point of view, Marx's universal communist state is nothing but a turbo-charged update to the Hegelian ideal. Still, there is a huge difference between the two. Hegel believed, or at least professed, that we had to be humble in the face of History and refuse the temptation to take it into our own hands, since it is smarter and stronger than us, and will always find a way to use us. Marx, on the other hand, rejected Hegel's circumspection and insisted that the goal of philosophy was not to understand history, but to change it. I suspect that it is precisely this act of hubris that functions as an invitation for Satan to pick up the reins. Keep in mind that Marx's brother-in-law, Ferdinand von Westphalen, was the head of the secret police for the Prussian state. They don't teach you that in philosophy school...

Having said all this, I think one of the most interesting things someone here could do would be to read Hegel's "Philosophy of History" and comment on it. Why? Because I now suspect that every single historical event he brings up may be some kind of fake. (He loves the French Revolution.) In other words, it's possible that this text could be used as a skeleton key to identify and pick apart the narrative at the moment it was created. Again, like all the other Romantics and Idealists, this MFer was (1) a towering genius and (2) connected with the highest levels of power, which means that inventing and publicizing an entire fake history would be, if not easy for them, at least imaginable. Elsewhere on this site Usselo goes into a lot of detail on how the English romantics were instrumental in forging history.

Hegel's simplified chronology is basically:

1. "Oriental Despotism"
2. Greek and Roman period
3. Christianity
4. Feudalism
5. Englightenment
6. The Universal State

In other words, the standard schematic that closes our minds to other possibilities.

Feralimal, you ask if history graduates know if they are creating history according to a Marxist/Hegelian formula or not. I would say the answer is probably both. At the bottom you probably have "honest" but not particularly intelligent people who just repeat what they are told and do the yeoman's work of producing and salting in fake history. These people are motivated by conformity and a salary. At the middle level you encounter more opportunistic and cunning types who know they are making stuff up but they don't care. They like power and they like the idea that they are creating a new world in which they will have more power. They rationalize their dishonest behavior by telling themselves they are working for a Good Cause. At the highest level I suspect you have the people who have either been born into the con or recruited from among the most intelligent and amoral of the second category. I imagine that they are initiated into intelligence agencies and secret societies, inserted into positions of power, and tasked with orienting and managing the others.
 
Last edited:
The question that I still have no answer for is whether the delusional, Satanic, materialist, Jewish, Marxist version of esoteric thought that is shoved down our throat every day was part of the plan from the beginning or rather an artificial takeover of it.
I tend to think that whatever works, whatever collectivizes, is fine. An entirely different proposition would be acceptable - it doesn't matter. Imo, its mostly about getting the herd gathered up, moving in one direction, and we're good. Sorry if that's a bit trite.

Hegel basically said, towards the end of his life, that the authoritarian Prussian state (which invented modern schooling and pushed bureaucracy to the next dehumanizing level) was the greatest thing since sliced bread and a necessary precondition for humanity to evolve to the next level.
Yes - education, and nowadays, mass media and technology - are amazing forces of collectivisation. Everyone learns the same stuff, watches the same things - there are really only so many options that can even be considered, once you are working within the provided framework.

Feralimal, you ask if history graduates know if they are creating history according to a Marxist/Hegelian formula or not. I would say the answer is probably both. At the bottom you probably have "honest" but not particularly intelligent people who just repeat what they are told and do the yeoman's work of producing and salting in fake history. These people are motivated by conformity and a salary. At the middle level you encounter more opportunistic and cunning types who know they are making stuff up but they don't care. They like power and they like the idea that they are creating a new world in which they will have more power. They rationalize their dishonest behavior by telling themselves they are working for a Good Cause. At the highest level I suspect you have the people who have either been born into the con or recruited from among the most intelligent and amoral of the second category. I imagine that they are initiated into intelligence agencies and secret societies and tasked with orienting and managing the others.
Yes - I think of the middle group as super-normies, and perhaps the very top group are uber-normies. They make up the head/brain of the golum, where the golum is the mass of people. I don't even know that "they" have a bad intention... However, to the individual, any control is felt like an imprisoning chain. I'm veering off into my personal philosophical outlook again - where I see the 'battle' as that between the individual and the idea of a collective - so I'll cut it short. I'll just say is that what I think of as individuation is available from within, the battle is transcended, the material world does not need to be made right or anything like that. It is possible to determine one's reality for oneself.. but there I go again.

Thank you for your detailed write up on Marx + Hegel. It really puts so much meat on the bone of the 'subaltern' idea. I would also add that I found that James Lindsay (New Discources) has also done some great research on what he calls 'wokism' that I enjoyed:
https://www.youtube.com/@newdiscourses

Eg:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaU6mP0phE0
 
Elsewhere on this site Usselo goes into a lot of detail on how the English romantics were instrumental in forging history.

Usselo has a pathological hatred of the English and blames them for everything, which is hardly a subjective point of view, imo. The English Romantics no doubt played their part, but to claim that they were instrumental in forging history is a massive exaggeration.
________________________________________________________

I'm afraid I don't understand the business about "subaltern voices" and I really don't want to, to be honest. However, what strikes me about all of this is how the entire revolutionary/communist/socialist concept is one of the fundamental themes of the Bible.

I should explain that I don't believe the Bible to be either a (or 'an' if you like) historical document or the 'word of God'. I see it as one of the greatest falsifications of history ever - the great-great grand-daddy of all falsifications. I also believe some of it to have been compiled from distorted pagan "myths" or "legends." In relation to this thread, the 'revolution in heaven' comes to mind immediately. Satan was a revolutionary leader who tried to usurp the authority of God and undermine the superiority of Jesus and Adam. Satan is presented as the ultimate expression of materialism, with God and Jesus as the spiritual opposite... the old duality thing. God kicked Satan's aris out of paradise along with those of his fellow revolutionaries. In some versions they ended up in Hell and in others, on Earth. In fact, Satan is often declared to be 'Lord' of this Earth.

Ever since that point we are meant to believe that there has been a constant competition for the souls of men between, God and Satan, or Spirituality and Materialism - Good and Evil. Furthermore, our own personal performance within this competition is a matter of record that will be used to pass final judgement upon us when we kick the bucket and toddle off this mortal coil.

And there it is - the perfect set-up for the never-ending cycle of oppression, exploitation, slavery, revolution, conflict, oppression, exploitation, slavery, revolution, conflict... ad nauseam.

Combine this with the overwhelming mental programming, provided by various scientists, philosophers, psychologists and psychiatrists, to the effect that mankind is nothing more than a chemical and biological accident that crawled out of the primeval slime on a wildly spinning ball, that was itself the insignificant, but freaky result of a giant explosion some shysty-zillion years ago. If that's not enough then we are told that we are nothing but beasts, a breed of animals that somehow managed to develop a greater than average IQ than most. We are not responsible, therefore, for our 'base instincts', but we must do our best to fight against them and struggle to become more... more what? More like humans? This propaganda favours the Satanic/revolutionary side rather than team God and we see how revolutionary movements nearly always involve those naughty old 'base instincts'.

Subaltern was once a military term denoting a position of rank within a hierarchy. Search Google and this comes up right in your face:

"A person who is marginalized and oppressed by the dominant culture, especially in a colonial context."

There we have it, the first step in the never-ending cycle of oppression, exploitation, slavery, revolution, conflict... 'Subaltern post-colonial Marxist voices', call it what you will, it's all the same old sleight of hand.

PS: This is a list of all the colonies that have ever been in existence at one time or another, apart from British ones:

French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Dutch, Belgian, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Austrian and Austro-Hungarian, Russian, American, Australian, New Zealand, Japanese, Chinese, Ottoman, Omani, Mexican, Ecuadorian, Colombian, Argentine, Chilean, Brazilian, Bolivian, Ethiopian, Moroccan, Burmese, Indonesian, Thai/Siamese, Vietnamese, Ancient Egyptian, Khedivate Egyptian, Genoese, Pisan, Two Sicilian, Venetian
List of colonies - Wikipedia

PPS:

🎅 YULETIDE GREETINGS TO ONE AND ALL! 🎅
 
Last edited by a moderator:
And there it is - the perfect set-up for the never-ending cycle of oppression, exploitation, slavery, revolution, conflict, oppression, exploitation, slavery, revolution, conflict... ad nauseam
That has to be the accurate description of the purpose of "holy" I have ever read.
Compliments of the season.
 
Usselo has a pathological hatred of the English and blames them for everything
Far from it. In fact, I'm right now drafting a nomination for the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS).

It wants to hear about British culture that deserves protection under the 2003 Unesco Convention for Safeguarding Intangible Cultural Heritage.

I'm nominating British dance:

Download Video

Source: Northern Soul .. 1970 .. The Wigan Casino

On grounds it is losing unique moves, folk costume and cultural vigour:


 
Last edited:
Far from it. In fact, I'm right now drafting a nomination for the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS).

It wants to hear about British culture that deserves protection under the 2003 Unesco Convention for Safeguarding Intangible Cultural Heritage.

I'm nominating British dance:

Source: Northern Soul .. 1970 .. The Wigan Casino

On grounds it is losing unique moves, folk costume and cultural vigour:




This clumsy attempt at satire confirms your contempt and your obsession.
 
Strictly speaking, a Subaltern is any officer below Field Officer rank - which starts at Major (unless you are the Adjutant).

However, since we Brits are happy to encourage pompous Junior Officers to think excessively highly of themselves despite their general ignorance of strict military terminology, the word Subaltern is commonly used to refer only to those at the bottom of the commissioned-officer food-chain, meaning the Second Lieutenant (or one-pip-wonder) and the Lieutenant.

They range in quality from utterly clueless (particularly for non-grads) to very experienced, capable soldiers. Grads don't really have time for that bit and carry 'utterly clueless' with them until well into their Captaincy.

Well, at least that's what Team Non-Grad would have you believe, to make up for the enormous chips they all carry around with them.

By the way, Lieutenant is, despite being a French word (meaning something along the lines of 'the bloke who watches the fort while the real boss is away'), pronounced LEFF-tenant. Anyone pronouncing it loo-TENANT is either a) French b) a Septic or c) a mong.

Theft of the term​

The term was pinched by a bunch of post-colonialist poseurs to refer to junior outsider components of the colonial power structure, as in "Can the Subaltern speak?", an incomprehensible pile of shite written by Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak.

https://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Subaltern

Merry Christmas.
 
The term was pinched by a bunch of post-colonialist poseurs to refer to junior outsider components of the colonial power structure, as in "Can the Subaltern speak?", an incomprehensible pile of shite written by Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak.
"Can the Subaltern speak?"

I think the answer is no. And therein lies its brilliance as a strategy.

The lack of a voice allows licensed academics to express the 'subaltern voice' as they like. They are able to frame the scenario, ask the questions they want and then provide the answers they intend for others to accept and then be guided by. Judge, jury and executioner.
 
"Can the Subaltern speak?"

I think the answer is no. And therein lies its brilliance as a strategy.

The lack of a voice allows licensed academics to express the 'subaltern voice' as they like. They are able to frame the scenario, ask the questions they want and then provide the answers they intend for others to accept and then be guided by. Judge, jury and executioner.
Bingo, good insight. It's like writing a book report and focusing on the story's "symbolism" - you can write whatever the hell you want for 10+ pages.

And regarding Marx and his co-ideologists: the "subaltern" by definition are powerless, yet somehow the contemporary subaltern are going to rise up and steer us into the new era? They certainly don't seem that effective and have a poor track record...
 
I would like to point out something, if I may. I think philosophy is the best tool to control the masses. Philosophy, if looked at correctly is a way to learn the behaviors of a people to understand their follies, to understand the fear, the uncertainty of each individual. I believe it is a psychological tool to brake down the human to keep them oppressed. Look at the people, the time line, who were the big "philosophers", where did they come from. Is it that hard for people to think deeply about where they came from, why is the sky blue, what is reality. Look at these philosophical problems. They are a set up to question everything, but in a bad way. If the human were to really look at what it is and understand its self, then maybe there wouldn't be so much uncertainty. Maybe people need to think for themselves instead of having someone tell them what to do or what to think.

It is always someone trying to take control over another with what they think they have, called facts, or the right perspective, or this or that. It is always about control. It is a good indication that right from the start, we were all told a "story" whether it is his or hers, or it's, that is not congruent with the cosmic flow of the universe that we are originally connected with.

These Subaltern voices is an interesting way of putting things. This is a great way to keep strong minded poor individuals out of the loop and stifle them. The possible true leaders or prophets are kept from rising from the ashes if you will, which in turn keeps everything they way it has been and the way it will be. What a mess. Clean up on isle 4!!!

Happy Winter Solstice and a New Year!!!
 
They are a set up to question everything, but in a bad way.
I agree!

If the human were to really look at what it is and understand its self, then maybe there wouldn't be so much uncertainty. Maybe people need to think for themselves instead of having someone tell them what to do or what to think.
I like this, but I think I can try to rewrite this for you, in a way that I think makes the point even clearer..
If the individual were to really look at what it is and understand its self, then maybe there wouldn't be so much uncertainty. One needs to think for oneself instead of having someone tell them what to do or what to think.

My view is that each individual needs to develop their personal interpretation (a personal hermeneutics) in this life. Accept no stories, refuse comforting beliefs.

PS I would also add that skepticism is often considered a type of philosophical outlook. However, I see it as the philosophy killer.
 
Last edited:
When it comes to history creation, I can't think of anything better than hearing about it from the horse's mouth. I've already linked to this thread, but it is so good, it really merits reading and re-reading.

SH Archive - Ask Pro | - Questions for History Professionals

We read a PhD historian (Oisin) say so much. He is a complete product of his training, and now creating new training material for everyone else. He says:
The amount of new work that is being done to recover what are called ‘subaltern voices’, the histories of people who have been traditionally excluded from historical narratives like women, LGBT+ people, people of colour, people in poverty, etc., means that the discipline is changing very rapidly and new vistas of opening up all the time.
Yes, new work.

I would say it is neither evidence or theory first, but question first. In my case I started out by asking what evidence can I find about non-political prisoners in Ireland in the late-twentieth century? I knew they existed, I knew nothing had been written about them so I went looking for the evidence. It is the same basic method as, for instance, going looking for women or people of colour in a medieval context. You know they exist, so you look through the sources for evidence of them and if you find it you try and interpret it.
It is true that you can interpret evidence in different ways, but then it is also true that things can have multiple meanings. A painting may be a family heirloom, a symbol of wealth and power, a coded message about the artists beliefs, etc. It can be all those things at once and each of this things may evidence in the telling of different histories.
I absolutely respect your desire to get to an underlying truth, that is, in a sense, what we are all trying to get to. But I’m sure you see that the second you try understand any evidence of that truth, you too are interpreting, and the second you start telling a friend about it or posting about it here, you start constructing a narrative. Multiple narratives and interpretations are just different ways of looking at the same evidence.

From me:
SH Archive - Ask Pro | - Questions for History Professionals

Some of the categories I mentioned are modern constructs and are not how people would have seen themselves at numerous points in the past. I was (lazily, I admit) using modern terms as a shorthand for a wide range of experiences, relationships, and identities.

I don't see how 'filling in' history in this way doesn't help us to understand the past, though. If you think of history as a portrait, as in the simile you used earlier, then until recently we have basically had a huge blank canvass with a painting of one straight white guy standing in the middle of it with a load of artists obsessing over it to make sure that the detail of his sword hilt and the lace around his collar was exactly right. What historians are doing now is filling in the rest of the group standing with him, and we are beginning to see the diversity of experience in historical societies. You are never going to be in the past, so you will never experience and 'know' about it in that very literal sense, but the work that is being done today is helping to create a far more detailed picture of the past with far fewer people left out of it.

Licensed historians answering the questions they raise.

I think that whole exchange is/was illuminating and worth bringing up again.
 
Last edited:
Tips
Tips
Please respect our Posting Rules.
Back
Top