SH Archive 1519 Six-Masted Ship: is it possible?

[KD Archive]

I am not a big expert on maritime history, so I googled for six-masted ships. Google Search gave me 12 of those:

• Great Britain (ship, 1843)
• Great Eastern (ship, 1858)
• E.R. Sterling (ship, 1883)
• Everett G. Griggs (ship, 1883)
• City of Sydney (ship, 1875)
• Katherine (ship, 1887)
• Addie M. Lawrence (ship, 1903)
• Wyoming (ship, 1909)
• Fort Laramie (ship, 1919)
• Oregon Pine (ship, 1920)
• Helen B. Sterling (ship, 1920)
• Dorothy H. Sterling (ship, 1920)

Pre-1519 Six-Masted Ship
​

So, I ran into this map which was allegedly produced in 1519. The map was purchased in 1855, and became public in 1897. Here is a short description:

• The map presented here is from the Miller Atlas in the collections of the National Library of France. Produced for King Manuel I of Portugal in 1519 by cartographers Pedro Reinel, his son Jorge Reinel, and Lopo Homem and miniaturist António de Holanda, the atlas contains eight maps on six loose sheets, painted on both sides. The maps were richly decorated and illuminated by António de Holanda, a Dutch native who had been in Portugal for nearly ten years. The illustrations include ornate images of castles, towns, and architectural wonders; views of forests and other vegetation; and depictions of native peoples and animals. The shapes of some towns and coastlines are quite detailed. For other parts of the world about which Europeans still had limited knowledge, geographic details are drawn from the cartographer’s imagination or informed by views that originated with Ptolemy. This map (folio 5 recto in the atlas) shows the southwestern Atlantic Ocean with Brazil; folio 5 verso is blank. The people of Brazil are shown as naked, or almost so, collecting wood or preparing for a hunt, and watched by exotic birds and beasts. A cartouche states that the Brazilians are “savage and very brutal.” The atlas takes its name from Emmanuel Miller, who purchased it in 1855 from a bookseller in Santarém, Portugal. Miller’s widow sold it to the National Library of France in 1897.
• Larger Zoomable Map

1519: China Sea with the Moluccas
​

KD: Basically, I wanted to see what opinions our forum members might have on this one. Is it possible for a six masted ship to be depicted on a 1519 map? Unless I messed up on my search (which is highly possible), but it appears that this specific six-masted ship predates the kind by at least 350 years.

1492 Columbus Ships
...for comparison...

• Oh, and check these maps out.

P.S. Personally, I think this map was faked for profit.

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[Knowncitizen]

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Username: knowncitizen
Date: 2019-09-26 13:19:39
Reaction Score: 2

Cool maps! I found a ship with seven masts on one of the maps, does this help? Lol

 

[KD Archive]

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Username: KorbenDallas
Date: 2019-09-26 14:08:06
Reaction Score: 1

Cool maps! I found a ship with seven masts on one of the maps, does this help? Lol

I’m not sure. If anything, it got more confusing

 

[JWW427]

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Username: JWW427
Date: 2019-09-26 18:39:40
Reaction Score: 1

Since we now know we've been lied to on a titanic scale, we can assume that there were indeed huge wood ships built long ago in deep antiquity.
The Chinese certainly had them, as seen with Admiral Zheng's ships. 1500's era. Are we missing some masts?



Two Greek or Roman galleys or biremes were sometimes lashed together with a huge deck supported above like a modern catamaran. Slow but stable. Huge carrying capacity. I suspect they reinvented or copied earlier designs. Scale up this bireme illustration times three.



Six-masted ships in antiquity is not a stretch. They may have been slow and unwieldy though.

As for the original map above in the original post, I don't think you would want a big mast on the aft quarterdeck, its not stable enough. Propulsion masts need to be anchored all the way to the bottom hull. The additional masts fore and aft may have been for smaller maneuvering sails (spankers, gaff rig, etc.) and signaling flags and jacks. Something about this illustration doesn't seem correct. Im thinking the artist took many liberties. That said, ancient shipbuilders tried anything to see if it would work.



JWW

 

[KD Archive]

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Username: KorbenDallas
Date: 2019-09-26 20:34:35
Reaction Score: 1

Chinese history was filtered through the Jesuit narrative. As far as I understand, the true one was replaced with the one complementing TPTB’s virsion.

• Why is China not centuries ahead of the world in technology?

 

[JWW427]

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Username: JWW427
Date: 2019-09-26 21:04:05
Reaction Score: 1

Darn those pesky Jesuits...
If its true that China inherited most of the culture and technology of the mythical MU civilization, well I'll bet they achieved may things astounding.
Like all those pyramids that don't officially exist there.

JWw

 

[Archive]

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Username: jd755
Date: 2019-09-27 07:32:40
Reaction Score: 3

There comes a point where more sail becomes pointless as there is no gain. I don't know what that point is but sail weighs a lot, a lot more when wet and when open its all sat there on a stick, so too speak. A thick stick true in fact akin to a trunk of a tree. Tree trunks however have a root system in the ground to support a heavy wind affected canopy. A mast on a ship doesn't. There are lots of paintings of ships sat at anchor drying their sails. Obviously damp sailcloth will rot given the chance but getting them dry lowered their weight which was considerable.
In Nelsons Navy Broadside. Ships and Tactics
All the rated ships were ship rigged, that is they were square rigged vessels with three masts. Ship rigged vessels were unable to sail much closer than 67 degrees to the direction of the wind. Fore and aft rigs were used on some smaller vessels, and they could sail much closer to the wind. The sail area of a first rate could be in excess of two acres and the sails would weigh close to 10 tons.

There is a reason why three masted ships prevailed and my money is on the sweet spot between speed and manouverability.

 

[JWW427]

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Username: JWW427
Date: 2019-09-27 13:00:22
Reaction Score: 1

I agree. Three masts are the sweet spot.
But giant coal schooners did sail for a while in the early 1900's.
Imagine those sails when wet...
Believe it or not, but most of these hulls were wooden, since steel costed more.
It's astounding, their sheer size. Hull "hogging" was an issue, the sagging fore to aft.



Excerpt:
The Great Coal Schooners
Down Easters had to compete against foreign shipping, but domestic shipping was a legally protected trade. Beginning in the 1870s, coal shipped from the Delaware River and the Hampton Roads area of the Chesapeake Bay encouraged the building of larger and larger schooners. Three-masted schooners had long been the primary means of transporting coal to Boston and Maine, but, by the 1880s, the four-masted schooner had become more popular. The late 1890s saw five-masted schooners, and the first six-masted schooner, George W. Wells, was built in Camden, Maine in 1900.



JWW

 

[Archive]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: jd755
Date: 2019-09-27 13:53:36
Reaction Score: 1

Never seen these ships before so went startpaging withe the string coal schooner 1900. It found this; The Great Coal Schooners | Penobscot Bay History Online

Their rig isn't the same as the three masters which are ship rigged as the article from nelsons navy and the one you quoted noted. Basically these schooners were fore and aft rig. The ships on the op images aren't ship rigged either (pay attention that man!).
The op ships look to me to depictions of junks. Drawn by someone who hadn't actually seen one 'in the flesh' so too speak.

From here; More JONG JUNK Yard

Post automatically merged: 9/27/19

P.S. Personally, I think this map was faked for profit.

As ever a delve into 'the people' is revealing.
From here; https://journals.openedition.org/terrabrasilis/1209?lang=en
Pedro and Jorge Reinel (at.1504-60). Two black cartographers in the court of d. Manuel of Portugal (1495-1521)

In the court of kings John II (1481-95) and Manuel I (1495-1521) of Portugal, a melting pot of people of all races and origins, African slaves from Senegambia and Guinea, baptized, instructed and married to Portuguese women, of mixed blood or white, formed a true elite, where the most qualified could specialize in many crafts, up to musicians and artists. From 1470/80 till c.1540, a group of extremely skilled ivory carvers brought from Sierra Leone became distinguished, and created the "afro-portuguese" art (that we prefer to call "sapi-manueline"), the earliest example of an hybrid art of European origin since the Romans. Thanks to their intelligence in drawing and very high technical expertise, their sons could receive an education in the Palace School, be free and become liberal professionals. It must have been the case of Pedro Reinel, or "reinol" (i.e., born in the Realm) and his son Jorge, who received the best instruction in Mathematics and Cartography, eventually becoming the founders and greatest names of Manueline cartographic school. To these two negroes from Sierra Leone we owe the first detailed, realistic representation of Brazil's coast, as well as a mythical image (based on Tupinambá informations) of its interior.

Bang on the money it seems or complete bullshit made up in the RCC fiction factory.

Full page translation here; Google Translate

 

[JWW427]

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Username: JWW427
Date: 2019-09-27 16:04:45
Reaction Score: 2

My horse sense feeling is that old maps depict more truth than lies.
Perhaps the PTB thought no one would notice the finer details when they were scanned for the web. ––Ha-ha! We found them!
That said, creative license was probably seen as a benefit in ye olden days, as many maps were tightly-held national secrets of yore.
Was there fakery done as a false flag operation? Probably.
My romantic notion is that there are many collectors and academics out there quietly leaking clues to our genuine history for us tinfoil tricorn hatters to discover.

JWW

 

[Onijunbei]

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Username: Onijunbei
Date: 2019-09-27 17:49:35
Reaction Score: 1

The illustrators could just be agrandizing (or use a better word for making something bigger than it is) ... Kinda like how Japanese artists draw eyes.

 

[Maxresde]

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Username: maxresde
Date: 2020-03-16 12:41:30
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I was going to comment that this bireme looks identical to a Hawaiin ship. But when I looked closer, this is actually a picture of the Hawaiian ship. Did the Greeks really use ships of the same type?

Hōkūleʻa - Hōkūleʻa
===================================
Two Greek or Roman galleys or biremes were sometimes lashed together with a huge deck supported above like a modern catamaran. Slow but stable. Huge carrying capacity. I suspect they reinvented or copied earlier designs. Scale up this bireme illustration times three.

View attachment 29960



JWW