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Faustian bargain (plural Faustian bargains)
(idiomatic) An agreement in which a person abandons his or her spiritual values or moral principles in order to obtain knowledge, wealth or other benefits. quotations
A little background: I have thought that sometime I would go back to The New Testament, and see if I could find anything pertaining to missing time. With KD's post I had an idea start with.
The Bible, while never giving dates itself, seems to start out with actual time markers of places and people and societies. For instance Genesis: Day One/morning and evening, the Generations/Table of Nations, Darius and Xerxes, Babylon/Assyria, then even these markers get more vague until the end of the Old Testament.
Next the (supposed) 400 years of quiet in between, then Christ's birth. As the whole Bible has been moving toward this pinpoint of time, when God would walk the earth as a man, He definitely left markers again (not dates) of place, people and societies. As the Herodian Dynasties are pretty well established, in that there were Herods at least, I thought that a good place to start.
It's turned up some pretty interesting tidbits, but unfortunately I won't be able to offer any conclusions just perhaps a little more evidence.
I was thinking about this flow of time as markers, not dates, and that is how part of how we've been fooled. An analogy is when we would go to the huge spaces of Eastern Montana the ranchers might mention a reservoir. Thinking it would be interesting to visit we'd ask how to get there. They would never answer! We came to realize it's almost impossible to actually SAY the directions, like go to the Harris Place (Harris hasn't lived there for 100 years it's just still the name), go right when the butte is to your left, type thing. The only thing was to actually get there when you go with them to feed cows, or accidentally, and then you know. Then you can GPS it, but your GPS might go down sometime. The reservoir actually exists, but then again it may have dried up. The same with time, stuff actually happened but only the present exists and then it's gone. I'm sure you guys understand.
As usual there are many Herods, it's confusing, and some are probably fake so I am starting with the Herods listed in the Bible. They are mentioned quite a bit, and that is unusual for the Bible.
Who Was Herod? - Bible Gateway Blog
You can read the whole thing, but following is what will lead to the Pope.
Notice how the dates are off - they are like that all over Wikipedia on the Herods. Wiki was suprisingly openly hostile (basically saying it was stupid) to the Biblical account of the Herods, as if they have leg to stand on. Also Herod(s) were Jewish, but also edomites.
Herod “the Great” ruled as king of the Jews under Roman authority for thirty-three years, from 37–4 BC. It is this Herod who appears in the account of Jesus’ birth (Matt. 2:1–19; Luke 1:5).
He was also known as a great builder- he built the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem after all.
...
Herod’s Sons
But wait—if Herod died in 4 BC, who was the Herod who appears later in the Gospels—the Herod Jesus interacts with?
There was actually more than one.
Herod had changed his will several times during his life, and after his death it was contested by three of his sons. They appealed to Caesar Augustus, who divided the kingdom among them.
Archelaus
Archelaus (4 BC–AD 6) became ethnarch of Judea, Samaria, and Idumea, with the promise that if he ruled well, he would be made king.
Instead, he proved to be oppressive and erratic, and Augustus removed him from office in AD 6. Matthew notes that Joseph and Mary moved to Galilee to avoid Archelaus’s rule (Matt. 2:21–23).
When Archelaus was removed from office, Judea and Samaria were transferred to the control of Roman governors, known as prefects and, later, procurators.
The most important of these for the study of the New Testament is Pontius Pilate (AD 26–36), under whose administration Jesus was crucified. Other governors who appear in the New Testament are Felix (AD 52–59) and Festus (AD 59–62), before whom Paul stood trial (Acts 23–26).
Herod Antipas
Herod Antipas became tetrarch of Galilee and Perea from his father’s death in 4 BC until he was deposed by the emperor Caligula in AD 39.
The title tetrarch originally meant ruler of a fourth part of a region but came to be used of any minor ruler.
This is the Herod of Jesus’ public ministry. He imprisoned and eventually executed John the Baptist when John spoke out against his marriage to Herodias, his brother Philip’s ex-wife (Luke 3:19–20; Mark 6:17–29).
He also wondered about Jesus’ identity when people speculated that John had risen from the dead (Mark 6:14–16, par.).
When warned by some Pharisees that Herod was seeking his life, Jesus derisively called him “that fox,” probably a reference to his cunning and deceit (Luke 13:31–32).
Eventually, Antipas got his wish to see Jesus when Pilate sent Jesus to stand before him at his trial (Luke 23:7–12; cf. Acts 4:27).
Herod Philip
Herod Philip became tetrarch of Iturea, Trachonitis, Gaulanitis, Auranitis, and Batanea, regions north and east of Galilee.
He died without an heir, and his territory became part of the Roman province of Syria.
He is mentioned in the New Testament only in Luke 3:1 (the Philip of Mark 6:17 [cf. Matt. 14:3] is a different son of Herod the Great).
Herod the Great’s Grandsons
Only two other members of the Herodian dynasty appear in the New Testament, both in Acts. Herod Agrippa I was the son of Aristobulus and the grandson of Herod the Great.
He executed James, the brother of John, and arrested Peter (Acts 12). His death at Caesarea as judgment by God is recorded both by Luke and by the Jewish historian Josephus (Acts 12:19–23; Josephus, Ant. 19.8.2 §§343–52).
Herod Agrippa II was the son of Agrippa. It was this Herod, together with his sister Bernice, who was invited by the Roman governor Festus to hear Paul’s defense at Caesarea (Acts 25–26). Another sister, Drusilla, was married to the Roman governor Felix (Acts 24:24).
Here is Acts 12
Remember the Popes say they are in the line of Peter
Peter’s Miraculous Escape From Prison
12 It was about this time that King Herod arrested some who belonged to the church, intending to persecute them. 2 He had James, the brother of John, put to death with the sword. 3 When he saw that this met with approval among the Jews, he proceeded to seize Peter also. This happened during the Festival of Unleavened Bread. 4 After arresting him, he put him in prison, handing him over to be guarded by four squads of four soldiers each. Herod intended to bring him out for public trial after the Passover.
5 So Peter was kept in prison, but the church was earnestly praying to God for him.
6 The night before Herod was to bring him to trial, Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains, and sentries stood guard at the entrance. 7 Suddenly an angel of the Lord appeared and a light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the side and woke him up. “Quick, get up!” he said, and the chains fell off Peter’s wrists.
8 Then the angel said to him, “Put on your clothes and sandals.” And Peter did so. “Wrap your cloak around you and follow me,” the angel told him. 9 Peter followed him out of the prison, but he had no idea that what the angel was doing was really happening; he thought he was seeing a vision. 10 They passed the first and second guards and came to the iron gate leading to the city. It opened for them by itself, and they went through it. When they had walked the length of one street, suddenly the angel left him.
11 Then Peter came to himself and said, “Now I know without a doubt that the Lord has sent his angel and rescued me from Herod’s clutches and from everything the Jewish people were hoping would happen.”
12 When this had dawned on him, he went to the house of Mary the mother of John, also called Mark, where many people had gathered and were praying. 13 Peter knocked at the outer entrance, and a servant named Rhoda came to answer the door. 14 When she recognized Peter’s voice, she was so overjoyed she ran back without opening it and exclaimed, “Peter is at the door!”
15 “You’re out of your mind,” they told her. When she kept insisting that it was so, they said, “It must be his angel.”
16 But Peter kept on knocking, and when they opened the door and saw him, they were astonished. 17 Peter motioned with his hand for them to be quiet and described how the Lord had brought him out of prison. “Tell James and the other brothers and sisters about this,” he said, and then he left for another place.
18 In the morning, there was no small commotion among the soldiers as to what had become of Peter. 19 After Herod had a thorough search made for him and did not find him, he cross-examined the guards and ordered that they be executed.
Herod’s Death
Then Herod went from Judea to Caesarea and stayed there. 20 He had been quarreling with the people of Tyre and Sidon; they now joined together and sought an audience with him. After securing the support of Blastus, a trusted personal servant of the king, they asked for peace, because they depended on the king’s country for their food supply.
21 On the appointed day Herod, wearing his royal robes, sat on his throne and delivered a public address to the people. 22 They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.” 23 Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.
24 But the word of God continued to spread and flourish.
Barnabas and Saul Sent Off
25 When Barnabas and Saul had finished their mission, they returned from[a] Jerusalem, taking with them John, also called Mark.
Next I started reading through the Herods' wiki articles and found this under Progeny. Now it's getting interesting.
Herod Agrippa - Wikipedia
Drusilla [38–79 AD], who married first to Gaius Julius Azizus, King of Emesa and then to Antonius Felix, the procurator of Judaea.
Drusilla and her son Marcus Antonius Agrippa died in Pompeii during the eruption of Vesuvius. A daughter, Antonia Clementiana, became a grandmother to a Lucius Anneius Domitius Proculus. Two possible descendants from this marriage are Marcus Antonius Fronto Salvianus (a quaestor) and his son Marcus Antonius Felix Magnus, a high priest in 225
Here we've shown the Vesuvius date is pretty dubious.
And I thought, wasn't there a Pope Clementine? Close. Pope(s) Clement (or Clemens). Here's a huge list (repetitive?), but we'll only concentrate on a couple.
The first one was a direct follower of Peter, in Peter's lifetime. You can read about him here if you wish, but the dates don't really jive with the other supposed dates of Peter. However it's important to note that this where the Catholic Church is getting it's claim to the line of Peter.
Also, could it be that this first Clement was actually part of the Herod family? Just the related name above isn't a huge indicator, but there's more, and some relates to dating.
I found this article at Catholic.org with it's usual gobbledy gook of dates. (my embolding).
Clementines is the name given to the curious religious romance which has come down to us in two forms as composed by Pope St. Clement I. The Greek form is preserved only in two Manuscripts and consists of twenty books of homilies. The Latin form is a translation made from the Greek by Rufinus, who died in 410. It is called the "Recognitions". Two later epitomes of the Homilies exist also, and there is a partial Syriac translation, embracing Recog. i-iii, and Hom. x-xiv, preserved in two British Museum Manuscripts, one of which was written in the year 411. Some fragments are known in Arabic and in Slavonic. The writings are curious rather than admirable, and their main interest lies in the extraordinary theories which they have been made to support during the nineteenth century. The existence of the Clementine Homilies was first made known in 1572 and 1578 by the Jesuit Turrianus, who was a diligent searcher of libraries. He seems to have found a Manuscript of quite a different version from that which we possess. The first edition was that of G. B. Cotelier, 1672, from the Paris Manuscript, in which the 20th book and part of the 19th are wanting. This was re-edited in 1847 by Schwegler. The complete Vatican Manuscript was first used in Dressel's edition, 1853, reprinted in Migne, P. G., II; another edition by Lagarde, 865. The "Recognitions" are found in numerous Manuscripts, for they were very popular in the Middle Ages : indeed the strange history of Clement and his father Faustus, or Faustinianus, is said to have originated the Faust legend (cf. Richardson, "Papers of Amer. Soc. of Ch. Hist.", VI, 1894). The first edition, by Faber Stapulensis, appeared in 1504; Migne, P. G., I, gives a reprint of Gersdorf's edition of 1838. A new and much-needed edition is expected from E. C. Richardson. To the Homilies are prefixed two letters and an account of the reception of one of them. That from Clement to James was translated by Rufinus at an earlier date than the Recognitions (best edition by Fritzsche, 1873).
The story described is long and involved and, in truth, I could only scan it but this 'curious religious romance' does take us back to the Herods and gives a bit different view of the original Pope Clement's relationship to Peter. Bernice is mentioned extensively:
...At this point Clement recounts his history to the Apostle. He was closely related to the emperor. Soon after his birth his mother had a vision that unless she speedily left Rome with her twin elder sons, she and they would perish miserably. His father therefore sent them with many servants to Athens, but they disappeared, and nothing could be learned of their fate. At last, when Clement was twelve years old, his father himself set out upon the search; and he too was no more heard of (H. xii, 9-11, R. vii, 8-10). In the island of Aradus, opposite the town, Peter finds a miserable beggar woman, who turns out to be Clement's mother. *Could the fate be Pompeii?
And then amazingly! ... and hear Clement's story with amazement; they declare themselves to be Faustus and Faustinianus, the twin sons of Mattidia and brothers of Clement. They had been saved on a fragment of wreck, and some men in a boat had taken them..
The rest of story is about some relationship to Simon the Sorcerer. He is not a good character in the Bible, and is rebuked by Peter.
Bible Gateway passage: Acts 8:9-24 - New International Version
Howeverthis story ends happily ever after:
Simon is driven away by the threats of Corneliusthe Centurion , but first he changes the face of Faustus into his own likeness by smearing it with a magic juice, in hopes that Faustus will be put to death instead of himself. Peter frightens away Simon's disciples by what are simply lies, and he sends Faustus to Antioch to unsay in the person of Simon all the abuse Simon has been pouring on the Apostle there. The people of Antioch in consequence long for Peter's coming, and nearly put the false Simon to death. Peter restores him to his proper form, and thenceforth they all live happily.
Reminds me of Johann Georg Faust! I've copied a little, but the rest of his 'biography' is amazing.
c. 1480 or 1466 – c. 1541), also known in English as John Faustus /ˈfɔːstəs/, was an itinerant alchemist, astrologer and magician of the German Renaissance.
Doctor Faust became the subject of folk legend in the decades after his death, transmitted in chapbooks beginning in the 1580s, and was notably adapted by Christopher Marlowe in his play The Tragical History of the Life and Death of Doctor Faustus (1604). The Faustbuchtradition survived throughout the early modern period, and the legend was again adapted in Johann Wolfgang von Goethe's closet dramaFaust (1808), and Hector Berlioz's musical composition La damnation de Faust (premiered 1846).
Because of his early treatment as a figure in legend and literature, it is very difficult to establish historical facts about his life with any certainty. In the 17th century, it was even doubted that there ever had been a historical Faust, and the legendary character was identified with a printer of Mainz called Johann Fust. Johann Georg Neumann in 1683 addressed the question in his Disquisitio historica de Fausto praestigiatore, establishing Faust's historical existence based on contemporary references.
There are the many Pope Clements but they are known overall for moving from Rome to France-
... we return to the days of Philip the Fair, in the early 1300s, we may remember it was a newly elected French pope, Clement V, who allowed Philip to suppress the Knights Templar. Clement had been elected on the strength of his skills as a diplomat, at a time when relations between France and the papacy were severely strained. As one of his main tasks was to enact some sort of reconciliation with the French king, he decided to take up residence in Avignon. Its location on the Rhône, not far from the Mediterranean and Italian shores, made it a convenient location for traveling around Europe. A large tract of territory next to Avignon was actually owned by the papacy. And Rome was a dangerous place at that time, torn apart by power struggles among its leading families, leaving the pope extremely vulnerable. In fact, so volatile was the capital that it was not unusual then for the popes to reside outside of Rome. Clement broke new ground, however, in deciding to reside outside of Italy entirely, and in leaving a long line of popes after him in the same location. This era, in which seven consecutive French popes remained ensconced in the pleasurable idyll of Provence, is known as the Avignon papacy.
The Italians, needless to say, were not pleased by this papal abandonment. Critics referred to the Avignon papacy as the “Babylonian captivity,” arguing that the papacy had been subordinated to the French kings and the spiritual integrity of the Church had been compromised. In Dante’s Inferno, Clement V is depicted in the eighth circle of hell.
Now let's take a look at another (or the same?) Pope Clement.
Pope Clement VII (Italian: Papa Clemente VII; Latin: Clemens VII) (26 May 1478 – 25 September 1534), born Giulio di Giuliano de' Medici, was head of the Catholic Church and ruler of the Papal States from 19 November 1523 to his death on 25 September 1534.[3] “The most unfortunate of the Popes,” Clement VII’s reign was marked by a rapid succession of political, military, and religious struggles — many long in the making — which had far-reaching consequences for Christianity and world politics
Elected in 1523 at the end of the Italian Renaissance, Clement VII came to the papacy with a high reputation as a statesman, having served with distinction as chief advisor to both Pope Leo X (1513-1521) and Pope Adrian VI (1522-1523).[5][6] Assuming leadership in a time of crisis, with the Protestant Reformation spreading; the Church nearing bankruptcy; and large, foreign armies invading Italy, Clement VII initially sought to unite Christendom by making peace among the many Christian leaders then at odds.[7] He also aspired to liberate Italy from foreign occupation, believing that it threatened the Church's freedom. [4]
The complex political situation of the 1520s thwarted Clement's intentions.[8] Inheriting the problem of Martin Luther’s growing Protestant Reformation in Northern Europe; a vast power struggle in Italy between Europe’s two most powerful kings, Holy Roman Emperor Charles V and Francis I of France, each of whom demanded that the Pope choose a side; and Turkish invasions of Eastern Europe led by Suleiman the Magnificent; Clement's problems were exacerbated by King Henry VIII of England’s contentious divorce, resulting in England breaking away from the Catholic Church; and in 1527, souring relations with Emperor Charles V leading to the violent Sack of Rome, during which the Pope was imprisoned. After escaping confinement in the Castel Sant'Angelo, Clement — with few economic, military, or political options remaining — compromised the Church's and Italy's independence by allying with his former jailor, Emperor Charles V.
...
Elected in 1523 at the end of the Italian Renaissance, Clement VII came to the papacy with a high reputation as a statesman, having served with distinction as chief advisor to both Pope Leo X (1513-1521) and Pope Adrian VI (1522-1523). Assuming leadership in a time of crisis, with the Protestant Reformation spreading; the Church nearing bankruptcy; and large, foreign armies invading Italy, Clement VII initially sought to unite Christendom by making peace among the many Christian leaders then at odds. He also aspired to liberate Italy from foreign occupation, believing that it threatened the Church's freedom.
The complex political situation of the 1520s thwarted Clement's intentions.[8] Inheriting the problem of Martin Luther’s growing Protestant Reformation in Northern Europe; a vast power struggle in Italy between Europe’s two most powerful kings, Holy Roman Emperor Charles V and Francis I of France, each of whom demanded that the Pope choose a side; and Turkish invasions of Eastern Europe led by Suleiman the Magnificent; Clement's problems were exacerbated by King Henry VIII of England’s contentious divorce, resulting in England breaking away from the Catholic Church; and in 1527, souring relations with Emperor Charles V leading to the violent Sack of Rome, during which the Pope was imprisoned. After escaping confinement in the Castel Sant'Angelo, Clement — with few economic, military, or political options remaining — compromised the Church's and Italy's independence by allying with his former jailor, Emperor Charles V.[
...
One last item:
Clementine: Baby Name of the Day - Appellation Mountain
At the dawn of Christianity, several early church leaders took the name Clement, including Pope St. Clement I. It may be derived from a family name – St. Clement of Alexandria, for example, was born Titus Flavius Clemens. Related surnames abound.
Clement comes from the Latin for mild, gentle. Early feminine forms ranged from Clementia to Clemencia toClemence to Clemency. All of the Clem- names fell out of of favor during the Reformation, but Clement made a comeback in the nineteenth century, and this is when Clementine surfaces as the preferred feminine form.
Two notable royals wore the name.
First was Princess Clementine of Orleans, born to Louis-Phillipe, King of the French, in 1817.
Princess Clementine of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha was born in 1872. Clementine married Prince Victor Napoleonin 1910, and if not for some trifling matters of state, might have become Empress of France. The romance between the princess and the pretender to the throne was widely reported.
CONCLUSION:
I know this is hard to follow, but it seems (one of) the first Popes was related to the Herods (who persecuted and killed Jesus and the Apostles). He's connected to Simon the Sorcerer who thought this Christianity thing was a good setup and way to make money and perhaps they entered into a Faustian Bargain, whom Saint Clement was the 'brother' of. Isn't this what KD was describing?
His near ancestor (mother, aunt?) was associated with Pompeii, then onward to the de Medicis, and then France and every big historical happening in that time period.
Other avenues to explore are the Nero connection, and perhaps even the Mithras Cult which is said to be started in this time period.
(idiomatic) An agreement in which a person abandons his or her spiritual values or moral principles in order to obtain knowledge, wealth or other benefits. quotations
Synonym: deal with the devil
From the medieval legend of Faust, who made a contract with the Devil, exchanging his soul for unlimited knowledge and worldly pleasures. The story first appeared in print in an anonymously written chapbook, Historia von D. Johann Fausten (1587), which purported to contain tales about the life of the German alchemist and magician Johann Georg Faust (c. 1466 or 1480 – c. 1541). It was particularly popularized by two plays, Christopher Marlowe’s The Tragicall History of D. Faustus (first published 1604) and Johann Wolfgang von Goethe’s Faust (published 1808 and 1832).-----------------------
A little background: I have thought that sometime I would go back to The New Testament, and see if I could find anything pertaining to missing time. With KD's post I had an idea start with.
The Bible, while never giving dates itself, seems to start out with actual time markers of places and people and societies. For instance Genesis: Day One/morning and evening, the Generations/Table of Nations, Darius and Xerxes, Babylon/Assyria, then even these markers get more vague until the end of the Old Testament.
Next the (supposed) 400 years of quiet in between, then Christ's birth. As the whole Bible has been moving toward this pinpoint of time, when God would walk the earth as a man, He definitely left markers again (not dates) of place, people and societies. As the Herodian Dynasties are pretty well established, in that there were Herods at least, I thought that a good place to start.
It's turned up some pretty interesting tidbits, but unfortunately I won't be able to offer any conclusions just perhaps a little more evidence.
I was thinking about this flow of time as markers, not dates, and that is how part of how we've been fooled. An analogy is when we would go to the huge spaces of Eastern Montana the ranchers might mention a reservoir. Thinking it would be interesting to visit we'd ask how to get there. They would never answer! We came to realize it's almost impossible to actually SAY the directions, like go to the Harris Place (Harris hasn't lived there for 100 years it's just still the name), go right when the butte is to your left, type thing. The only thing was to actually get there when you go with them to feed cows, or accidentally, and then you know. Then you can GPS it, but your GPS might go down sometime. The reservoir actually exists, but then again it may have dried up. The same with time, stuff actually happened but only the present exists and then it's gone. I'm sure you guys understand.
As usual there are many Herods, it's confusing, and some are probably fake so I am starting with the Herods listed in the Bible. They are mentioned quite a bit, and that is unusual for the Bible.
Who Was Herod? - Bible Gateway Blog
You can read the whole thing, but following is what will lead to the Pope.
Notice how the dates are off - they are like that all over Wikipedia on the Herods. Wiki was suprisingly openly hostile (basically saying it was stupid) to the Biblical account of the Herods, as if they have leg to stand on. Also Herod(s) were Jewish, but also edomites.
Herod “the Great” ruled as king of the Jews under Roman authority for thirty-three years, from 37–4 BC. It is this Herod who appears in the account of Jesus’ birth (Matt. 2:1–19; Luke 1:5).
He was also known as a great builder- he built the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem after all.
...
Herod’s Sons
But wait—if Herod died in 4 BC, who was the Herod who appears later in the Gospels—the Herod Jesus interacts with?
There was actually more than one.
Herod had changed his will several times during his life, and after his death it was contested by three of his sons. They appealed to Caesar Augustus, who divided the kingdom among them.
Archelaus
Archelaus (4 BC–AD 6) became ethnarch of Judea, Samaria, and Idumea, with the promise that if he ruled well, he would be made king.
Instead, he proved to be oppressive and erratic, and Augustus removed him from office in AD 6. Matthew notes that Joseph and Mary moved to Galilee to avoid Archelaus’s rule (Matt. 2:21–23).
When Archelaus was removed from office, Judea and Samaria were transferred to the control of Roman governors, known as prefects and, later, procurators.
The most important of these for the study of the New Testament is Pontius Pilate (AD 26–36), under whose administration Jesus was crucified. Other governors who appear in the New Testament are Felix (AD 52–59) and Festus (AD 59–62), before whom Paul stood trial (Acts 23–26).
Herod Antipas
Herod Antipas became tetrarch of Galilee and Perea from his father’s death in 4 BC until he was deposed by the emperor Caligula in AD 39.
The title tetrarch originally meant ruler of a fourth part of a region but came to be used of any minor ruler.
This is the Herod of Jesus’ public ministry. He imprisoned and eventually executed John the Baptist when John spoke out against his marriage to Herodias, his brother Philip’s ex-wife (Luke 3:19–20; Mark 6:17–29).
He also wondered about Jesus’ identity when people speculated that John had risen from the dead (Mark 6:14–16, par.).
When warned by some Pharisees that Herod was seeking his life, Jesus derisively called him “that fox,” probably a reference to his cunning and deceit (Luke 13:31–32).
Eventually, Antipas got his wish to see Jesus when Pilate sent Jesus to stand before him at his trial (Luke 23:7–12; cf. Acts 4:27).
Herod Philip
Herod Philip became tetrarch of Iturea, Trachonitis, Gaulanitis, Auranitis, and Batanea, regions north and east of Galilee.
He died without an heir, and his territory became part of the Roman province of Syria.
He is mentioned in the New Testament only in Luke 3:1 (the Philip of Mark 6:17 [cf. Matt. 14:3] is a different son of Herod the Great).
Herod the Great’s Grandsons
Only two other members of the Herodian dynasty appear in the New Testament, both in Acts. Herod Agrippa I was the son of Aristobulus and the grandson of Herod the Great.
He executed James, the brother of John, and arrested Peter (Acts 12). His death at Caesarea as judgment by God is recorded both by Luke and by the Jewish historian Josephus (Acts 12:19–23; Josephus, Ant. 19.8.2 §§343–52).
Herod Agrippa II was the son of Agrippa. It was this Herod, together with his sister Bernice, who was invited by the Roman governor Festus to hear Paul’s defense at Caesarea (Acts 25–26). Another sister, Drusilla, was married to the Roman governor Felix (Acts 24:24).
Here is Acts 12
Remember the Popes say they are in the line of Peter
Peter’s Miraculous Escape From Prison
12 It was about this time that King Herod arrested some who belonged to the church, intending to persecute them. 2 He had James, the brother of John, put to death with the sword. 3 When he saw that this met with approval among the Jews, he proceeded to seize Peter also. This happened during the Festival of Unleavened Bread. 4 After arresting him, he put him in prison, handing him over to be guarded by four squads of four soldiers each. Herod intended to bring him out for public trial after the Passover.
5 So Peter was kept in prison, but the church was earnestly praying to God for him.
6 The night before Herod was to bring him to trial, Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains, and sentries stood guard at the entrance. 7 Suddenly an angel of the Lord appeared and a light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the side and woke him up. “Quick, get up!” he said, and the chains fell off Peter’s wrists.
8 Then the angel said to him, “Put on your clothes and sandals.” And Peter did so. “Wrap your cloak around you and follow me,” the angel told him. 9 Peter followed him out of the prison, but he had no idea that what the angel was doing was really happening; he thought he was seeing a vision. 10 They passed the first and second guards and came to the iron gate leading to the city. It opened for them by itself, and they went through it. When they had walked the length of one street, suddenly the angel left him.
11 Then Peter came to himself and said, “Now I know without a doubt that the Lord has sent his angel and rescued me from Herod’s clutches and from everything the Jewish people were hoping would happen.”
12 When this had dawned on him, he went to the house of Mary the mother of John, also called Mark, where many people had gathered and were praying. 13 Peter knocked at the outer entrance, and a servant named Rhoda came to answer the door. 14 When she recognized Peter’s voice, she was so overjoyed she ran back without opening it and exclaimed, “Peter is at the door!”
15 “You’re out of your mind,” they told her. When she kept insisting that it was so, they said, “It must be his angel.”
16 But Peter kept on knocking, and when they opened the door and saw him, they were astonished. 17 Peter motioned with his hand for them to be quiet and described how the Lord had brought him out of prison. “Tell James and the other brothers and sisters about this,” he said, and then he left for another place.
18 In the morning, there was no small commotion among the soldiers as to what had become of Peter. 19 After Herod had a thorough search made for him and did not find him, he cross-examined the guards and ordered that they be executed.
Herod’s Death
Then Herod went from Judea to Caesarea and stayed there. 20 He had been quarreling with the people of Tyre and Sidon; they now joined together and sought an audience with him. After securing the support of Blastus, a trusted personal servant of the king, they asked for peace, because they depended on the king’s country for their food supply.
21 On the appointed day Herod, wearing his royal robes, sat on his throne and delivered a public address to the people. 22 They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.” 23 Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.
24 But the word of God continued to spread and flourish.
Barnabas and Saul Sent Off
25 When Barnabas and Saul had finished their mission, they returned from[a] Jerusalem, taking with them John, also called Mark.
Next I started reading through the Herods' wiki articles and found this under Progeny. Now it's getting interesting.
Herod Agrippa - Wikipedia
Drusilla [38–79 AD], who married first to Gaius Julius Azizus, King of Emesa and then to Antonius Felix, the procurator of Judaea.
Drusilla and her son Marcus Antonius Agrippa died in Pompeii during the eruption of Vesuvius. A daughter, Antonia Clementiana, became a grandmother to a Lucius Anneius Domitius Proculus. Two possible descendants from this marriage are Marcus Antonius Fronto Salvianus (a quaestor) and his son Marcus Antonius Felix Magnus, a high priest in 225
Here we've shown the Vesuvius date is pretty dubious.
And I thought, wasn't there a Pope Clementine? Close. Pope(s) Clement (or Clemens). Here's a huge list (repetitive?), but we'll only concentrate on a couple.
The first one was a direct follower of Peter, in Peter's lifetime. You can read about him here if you wish, but the dates don't really jive with the other supposed dates of Peter. However it's important to note that this where the Catholic Church is getting it's claim to the line of Peter.
Also, could it be that this first Clement was actually part of the Herod family? Just the related name above isn't a huge indicator, but there's more, and some relates to dating.
I found this article at Catholic.org with it's usual gobbledy gook of dates. (my embolding).
Clementines is the name given to the curious religious romance which has come down to us in two forms as composed by Pope St. Clement I. The Greek form is preserved only in two Manuscripts and consists of twenty books of homilies. The Latin form is a translation made from the Greek by Rufinus, who died in 410. It is called the "Recognitions". Two later epitomes of the Homilies exist also, and there is a partial Syriac translation, embracing Recog. i-iii, and Hom. x-xiv, preserved in two British Museum Manuscripts, one of which was written in the year 411. Some fragments are known in Arabic and in Slavonic. The writings are curious rather than admirable, and their main interest lies in the extraordinary theories which they have been made to support during the nineteenth century. The existence of the Clementine Homilies was first made known in 1572 and 1578 by the Jesuit Turrianus, who was a diligent searcher of libraries. He seems to have found a Manuscript of quite a different version from that which we possess. The first edition was that of G. B. Cotelier, 1672, from the Paris Manuscript, in which the 20th book and part of the 19th are wanting. This was re-edited in 1847 by Schwegler. The complete Vatican Manuscript was first used in Dressel's edition, 1853, reprinted in Migne, P. G., II; another edition by Lagarde, 865. The "Recognitions" are found in numerous Manuscripts, for they were very popular in the Middle Ages : indeed the strange history of Clement and his father Faustus, or Faustinianus, is said to have originated the Faust legend (cf. Richardson, "Papers of Amer. Soc. of Ch. Hist.", VI, 1894). The first edition, by Faber Stapulensis, appeared in 1504; Migne, P. G., I, gives a reprint of Gersdorf's edition of 1838. A new and much-needed edition is expected from E. C. Richardson. To the Homilies are prefixed two letters and an account of the reception of one of them. That from Clement to James was translated by Rufinus at an earlier date than the Recognitions (best edition by Fritzsche, 1873).
The story described is long and involved and, in truth, I could only scan it but this 'curious religious romance' does take us back to the Herods and gives a bit different view of the original Pope Clement's relationship to Peter. Bernice is mentioned extensively:
...At this point Clement recounts his history to the Apostle. He was closely related to the emperor. Soon after his birth his mother had a vision that unless she speedily left Rome with her twin elder sons, she and they would perish miserably. His father therefore sent them with many servants to Athens, but they disappeared, and nothing could be learned of their fate. At last, when Clement was twelve years old, his father himself set out upon the search; and he too was no more heard of (H. xii, 9-11, R. vii, 8-10). In the island of Aradus, opposite the town, Peter finds a miserable beggar woman, who turns out to be Clement's mother. *Could the fate be Pompeii?
And then amazingly! ... and hear Clement's story with amazement; they declare themselves to be Faustus and Faustinianus, the twin sons of Mattidia and brothers of Clement. They had been saved on a fragment of wreck, and some men in a boat had taken them..
The rest of story is about some relationship to Simon the Sorcerer. He is not a good character in the Bible, and is rebuked by Peter.
Bible Gateway passage: Acts 8:9-24 - New International Version
Howeverthis story ends happily ever after:
Simon is driven away by the threats of Corneliusthe Centurion , but first he changes the face of Faustus into his own likeness by smearing it with a magic juice, in hopes that Faustus will be put to death instead of himself. Peter frightens away Simon's disciples by what are simply lies, and he sends Faustus to Antioch to unsay in the person of Simon all the abuse Simon has been pouring on the Apostle there. The people of Antioch in consequence long for Peter's coming, and nearly put the false Simon to death. Peter restores him to his proper form, and thenceforth they all live happily.
Reminds me of Johann Georg Faust! I've copied a little, but the rest of his 'biography' is amazing.
c. 1480 or 1466 – c. 1541), also known in English as John Faustus /ˈfɔːstəs/, was an itinerant alchemist, astrologer and magician of the German Renaissance.
Doctor Faust became the subject of folk legend in the decades after his death, transmitted in chapbooks beginning in the 1580s, and was notably adapted by Christopher Marlowe in his play The Tragical History of the Life and Death of Doctor Faustus (1604). The Faustbuchtradition survived throughout the early modern period, and the legend was again adapted in Johann Wolfgang von Goethe's closet dramaFaust (1808), and Hector Berlioz's musical composition La damnation de Faust (premiered 1846).
Because of his early treatment as a figure in legend and literature, it is very difficult to establish historical facts about his life with any certainty. In the 17th century, it was even doubted that there ever had been a historical Faust, and the legendary character was identified with a printer of Mainz called Johann Fust. Johann Georg Neumann in 1683 addressed the question in his Disquisitio historica de Fausto praestigiatore, establishing Faust's historical existence based on contemporary references.
There are the many Pope Clements but they are known overall for moving from Rome to France-
... we return to the days of Philip the Fair, in the early 1300s, we may remember it was a newly elected French pope, Clement V, who allowed Philip to suppress the Knights Templar. Clement had been elected on the strength of his skills as a diplomat, at a time when relations between France and the papacy were severely strained. As one of his main tasks was to enact some sort of reconciliation with the French king, he decided to take up residence in Avignon. Its location on the Rhône, not far from the Mediterranean and Italian shores, made it a convenient location for traveling around Europe. A large tract of territory next to Avignon was actually owned by the papacy. And Rome was a dangerous place at that time, torn apart by power struggles among its leading families, leaving the pope extremely vulnerable. In fact, so volatile was the capital that it was not unusual then for the popes to reside outside of Rome. Clement broke new ground, however, in deciding to reside outside of Italy entirely, and in leaving a long line of popes after him in the same location. This era, in which seven consecutive French popes remained ensconced in the pleasurable idyll of Provence, is known as the Avignon papacy.
The Italians, needless to say, were not pleased by this papal abandonment. Critics referred to the Avignon papacy as the “Babylonian captivity,” arguing that the papacy had been subordinated to the French kings and the spiritual integrity of the Church had been compromised. In Dante’s Inferno, Clement V is depicted in the eighth circle of hell.
Now let's take a look at another (or the same?) Pope Clement.
Pope Clement VII (Italian: Papa Clemente VII; Latin: Clemens VII) (26 May 1478 – 25 September 1534), born Giulio di Giuliano de' Medici, was head of the Catholic Church and ruler of the Papal States from 19 November 1523 to his death on 25 September 1534.[3] “The most unfortunate of the Popes,” Clement VII’s reign was marked by a rapid succession of political, military, and religious struggles — many long in the making — which had far-reaching consequences for Christianity and world politics
Elected in 1523 at the end of the Italian Renaissance, Clement VII came to the papacy with a high reputation as a statesman, having served with distinction as chief advisor to both Pope Leo X (1513-1521) and Pope Adrian VI (1522-1523).[5][6] Assuming leadership in a time of crisis, with the Protestant Reformation spreading; the Church nearing bankruptcy; and large, foreign armies invading Italy, Clement VII initially sought to unite Christendom by making peace among the many Christian leaders then at odds.[7] He also aspired to liberate Italy from foreign occupation, believing that it threatened the Church's freedom. [4]
The complex political situation of the 1520s thwarted Clement's intentions.[8] Inheriting the problem of Martin Luther’s growing Protestant Reformation in Northern Europe; a vast power struggle in Italy between Europe’s two most powerful kings, Holy Roman Emperor Charles V and Francis I of France, each of whom demanded that the Pope choose a side; and Turkish invasions of Eastern Europe led by Suleiman the Magnificent; Clement's problems were exacerbated by King Henry VIII of England’s contentious divorce, resulting in England breaking away from the Catholic Church; and in 1527, souring relations with Emperor Charles V leading to the violent Sack of Rome, during which the Pope was imprisoned. After escaping confinement in the Castel Sant'Angelo, Clement — with few economic, military, or political options remaining — compromised the Church's and Italy's independence by allying with his former jailor, Emperor Charles V.
...
Elected in 1523 at the end of the Italian Renaissance, Clement VII came to the papacy with a high reputation as a statesman, having served with distinction as chief advisor to both Pope Leo X (1513-1521) and Pope Adrian VI (1522-1523). Assuming leadership in a time of crisis, with the Protestant Reformation spreading; the Church nearing bankruptcy; and large, foreign armies invading Italy, Clement VII initially sought to unite Christendom by making peace among the many Christian leaders then at odds. He also aspired to liberate Italy from foreign occupation, believing that it threatened the Church's freedom.
The complex political situation of the 1520s thwarted Clement's intentions.[8] Inheriting the problem of Martin Luther’s growing Protestant Reformation in Northern Europe; a vast power struggle in Italy between Europe’s two most powerful kings, Holy Roman Emperor Charles V and Francis I of France, each of whom demanded that the Pope choose a side; and Turkish invasions of Eastern Europe led by Suleiman the Magnificent; Clement's problems were exacerbated by King Henry VIII of England’s contentious divorce, resulting in England breaking away from the Catholic Church; and in 1527, souring relations with Emperor Charles V leading to the violent Sack of Rome, during which the Pope was imprisoned. After escaping confinement in the Castel Sant'Angelo, Clement — with few economic, military, or political options remaining — compromised the Church's and Italy's independence by allying with his former jailor, Emperor Charles V.[
...
One last item:
Clementine: Baby Name of the Day - Appellation Mountain
At the dawn of Christianity, several early church leaders took the name Clement, including Pope St. Clement I. It may be derived from a family name – St. Clement of Alexandria, for example, was born Titus Flavius Clemens. Related surnames abound.
Clement comes from the Latin for mild, gentle. Early feminine forms ranged from Clementia to Clemencia toClemence to Clemency. All of the Clem- names fell out of of favor during the Reformation, but Clement made a comeback in the nineteenth century, and this is when Clementine surfaces as the preferred feminine form.
Two notable royals wore the name.
First was Princess Clementine of Orleans, born to Louis-Phillipe, King of the French, in 1817.
Princess Clementine of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha was born in 1872. Clementine married Prince Victor Napoleonin 1910, and if not for some trifling matters of state, might have become Empress of France. The romance between the princess and the pretender to the throne was widely reported.
CONCLUSION:
I know this is hard to follow, but it seems (one of) the first Popes was related to the Herods (who persecuted and killed Jesus and the Apostles). He's connected to Simon the Sorcerer who thought this Christianity thing was a good setup and way to make money and perhaps they entered into a Faustian Bargain, whom Saint Clement was the 'brother' of. Isn't this what KD was describing?
His near ancestor (mother, aunt?) was associated with Pompeii, then onward to the de Medicis, and then France and every big historical happening in that time period.
Other avenues to explore are the Nero connection, and perhaps even the Mithras Cult which is said to be started in this time period.
