Chronological problems in Ancient History

[jonnye]

There are only two trustworthy dates in ancient history. One is the first Olympiad in -776 BC. Since the last one was held in the modern era (AD 394) it is possible to accurately place Greek and Roman history within that timeframe. Egypt’s only reliable date (from astronomical data) is the Sack of Thebes by the Assyrians in -664 BC. No event earlier can be accurately dated. But Egyptology presents its historical dating with the precision given a list of American Presidents. The chronology of Egyptian kings is primarily offered by Manetho (c.300 BC). His list of Egyptian kings (and other extremely fragmented records), form the basis for dating Egyptian history and its monuments. But they do not, and cannot, offer dates as we know them. No records from Manetho himself exist. Our understanding of his history comes from Christian historians five centuries later. J. H. Breasted (one of the giants) says Manetho’s history is “mostly imaginary.” Breasted:

Although we know that many of his divisions are arbitrary and that there was many a dynastic change where he indicates none...
his dynasties divide the kings into convenient groups which have so long been employed in modern study of Egyptian history that
it is now impossible to dispense with them.

There’s little to any of it beyond speculation. But since there is nothing else to go on it becomes the fact of the matter. Any chronology is better than no chronology.

 

[feralimal]

history is “mostly imaginary.”

If you had left it at that ^^ I'd agree!

 

[Daniel]

The problem is that dates like "664 BC" and "394 AD" were themselves only assigned much later.
Chronology as we know it was put together in what we know call the "16th" and "17th" centuries. The people who gave dates to everything did not use what we would today call Scientific methods. Events were largely dated using kabbalistic and masonic numerology. In addition, the majority of these "historic" events did not happen at all.
Much of this "history" are tales based on the stars, the seasons, or just Stories designed to show everyone that the People in Charge Right Now have God on their side.

 

[Nick Weech]

"Any chronology is better than no chronology." Discuss.

Olympiad - Wikipedia

Although the ancient Olympics were established during Greece's Archaic Era, it was not until Hippias that a consistent list was established and not until Ephorus ** in the Hellenistic period that the first recorded Olympic contest was used as a calendar epoch. Ancient authors agreed that other Olympics had been held before the race won by Coroebus but disagreed on how many; the convention was established to place Coroebus's victory at a time equivalent to the summer of 776 BC in the Proleptic Julian calendar, and to treat it as Year 1 of Olympiad 1. Olympiad 2 began with the next games in the summer of 772 BC.

** Ephorus - Wikipedia

"Ephorus of Cyme (/ˈɛfərəs/; Ancient Greek: Ἔφορος ὁ Κυμαῖος, Ephoros ho Kymaios; c. 400 BC – 330 BC) was an ancient Greek historian known for his universal history, now lost.
"Despite having written all these works, nothing but isolated fragments survived from the ancient world. His entire work has been lost."

 

[feralimal]

"Any chronology is better than no chronology." Discuss

Another way to phrase this question would be something like: 'if someone makes a claim that you know to be partially (or even wholly) a lie, how much should you believe?' Could believing a lie be more harmful to you than knowing nothing?

I have no issues with talking about history. I do think that at the least some evidence should be presented, and assumptions should be acknowledged.

With regards to ancient history particularly, one should acknowledge the handle on whatever-it-is is far weaker. Eg, do you know the name of your great grandad? His father's name? Can you go back another 30 generations?

 

[Tapioca]

One way I heard it described was:

All of humanity was part of an ancient advanced civilization with high tech and knowledge of natural medicine to heal ourselves. This happened in the 1800s. Before that we do not know anything. Usurpers conquered all humanity, erased our history, leaving clues to mock us. They shortened our lives and busy us with jobs and suffer with disease so we do not have time to put the pieces together. All of this happened during "natural" disasters and history erased through the "random" fires. Also, all those contradictory maps are attempts to shake real maps with misleading ones.

Some statues are real people turned to stone.

Or mocking our leaders. Atlas is one.

 

[Nick Weech]

One way I heard it described was:

All of humanity was part of an ancient advanced civilization with high tech and knowledge of natural medicine to heal ourselves. This happened in the 1800s. Before that we do not know anything. Usurpers conquered all humanity, erased our history, leaving clues to mock us. They shortened our lives and busy us with jobs and suffer with disease so we do not have time to put the pieces together. All of this happened during "natural" disasters and history erased through the "random" fires. Also, all those contradictory maps are attempts to shake real maps with misleading ones.

Some statues are real people turned to stone.
View attachment 33464

Or mocking our leaders. Atlas is one.
View attachment 33465

Another way to phrase this question would be something like: 'if someone makes a claim that you know to be partially (or even wholly) a lie, how much should you believe?' Could believing a lie be more harmful to you than knowing nothing?

I have no issues with talking about history. I do think that at the least some evidence should be presented, and assumptions should be acknowledged.

I think his point is crucial: *Could believing a lie be more harmful than knowing nothing?* Tx feralimal. Scepticism = doubting something to be true or useful UNLESS VERIFIED PERSONALLY. Which limits us "to some extent" in what we believe- or rather are led into believing ...

With regards to ancient history particularly, one should acknowledge the handle on whatever-it-is is far weaker. Eg, do you know the name of your great grandad? His father's name? Can you go back another 30 generations?

 

[Nick Weech]

Just another thing: Only a handful of people have even viewed this thread = 7

This is NOT an interesting eye-grabbing topic here :"Why?" ,when calendars and dates are fundamental to History

 

[feralimal]

I think his point is crucial: *Could believing a lie be more harmful than knowing nothing?* Tx feralimal. Scepticism = doubting something to be true or useful UNLESS VERIFIED PERSONALLY. Which limits us "to some extent" in what we believe- or rather are led into believing ...

Thanks. I absolutely do think it is better to know nothing.

Btw, I think one can have honest beliefs. This would be where one holds to some idea, but then if some new evidence comes to light one is able to assimilate it and alter one's position accordingly. Another way to describe this is to personally hold to the scientific method - where one's hypotheses are the result of best reasoning, rather than a dogma into which the evidence must be marshalled.

 

[Tapioca]

I think his point is crucial: *Could believing a lie be more harmful than knowing nothing?* Tx feralimal. Scepticism = doubting something to be true or useful UNLESS VERIFIED PERSONALLY. Which limits us "to some extent" in what we believe- or rather are led into believing ...

That is a great way to express that!

 

[Seiya]

I would like to quote two pieces of the unique masterpiece written by Ruhiger Wolf:

"So for an individual, it is important to be aware of his past. For a people, or even the collective of people, it is equally important, and in a sense even more important, because the survival of the individual depends directly on his group. The history of a people is its guarantee of survival. It is a real treasure that needs to be well guarded. It must be open to all people, safe from any falsification, so that the community of people can advance rapidly in its development. Rulers, however, have an absolute interest in people not progressing."

To have "Chronological problems in Ancient History" first we need have a Ancient History and we don't.

About "Any chronology is better than no chronology."

I quote:

"Jeremy Locke goes on to say: "Concealment is the distortion of principles. Obfuscation is the creation of false ideas to hide the truth. Sometimes this is done by simply adding ideas to the actual truth to disguise the nature of the original truth. Evil uses concealment to confuse the minds of people. Obfuscation distorts principles so that people are unable to learn. Evil uses concealment so that you are unable to gain knowledge. Evil does this to deprive you of your freedom."

 

[lancsDavid]

histories chronology problem has been solved by Wilson & Blackett & detailed in their book "Moses in the Hieroglyphs".... the essence of it being ancient egyptian chronology (which is wrong) has been used to date everything else, making everything else wrong... particularly giving rise to a phantom dark ages of 600 years which crop up in the histories of many countries, through their histories being "made to fit" with egypts.... it also includes a lot of other useful stuff such as how the egyptian hieroglyphs can be read - for the first time ever as they've only pretended to be able to up till now - using the ancient welsh coelbren alphabet... one of the top revisionist books available & totally explains all chronological problems... consequently it's quite a hard book to get hold of... it's available from cymroglyphics.com & a couple of other places but not generally available on amazon or ebay except for several 100 squids...

 

[Tapioca]

Environmental anomaly dated events

2350 BCE Middle East Climate Anomaly

• Marie-Agnès Courty proposed that a natural disaster involving wildfires, floods, and an air blast of over 100 megatons occurred about 2350 BCE. This proposal is based on unusual "dust" deposits which have been reported from archaeological sites in Mesopotamia that are a few hundred kilometres from each other. Based only upon the analysis of satellite imagery, Umm al Binni lake in southern Iraq has been suggested as a possible extraterrestrial impact crater and possible cause of this natural disaster.

1920 BCE The Great Flood of Gun-Yu

• Archaeological evidence of an outburst flood at Jishi Gorge on the Yellow River.
  • "Like endless boiling water, the flood is pouring forth destruction. Boundless and overwhelming, it overtops hills and mountains. Rising and ever rising, it threatens the very heavens. How the people must be groaning and suffering!"
    — Emperor Yao, as quoted in the Book of History, describing the flood

1600 BCE Minoan Eruption

• Recorded by the Chinese Bamboo Annals, Egyptian Tempest Stele, Ahmose Tempest Stele,
  • It provides a fixed point for aligning the entire chronology of the second millennium BCE in the Aegean, as evidence of the eruption is found throughout the region.
  • Geologist Barbara J. Sivertsen seeks to establish a link between the eruption of Santorini (c. 1600 BCE) and the Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt in the Bible
  • Spyridon Marinatos, the discoverer of the Akrotiri archaeological site, suggested that the Minoan eruption is reflected in Plato's story of Atlantis.
  • Greek Myth of the Titanomachy in Hesiod's Theogony. The Titanomachy could have picked up elements of western Anatolian folk memory, as the tale spread westward. Hesiod's lines have been compared with volcanic activity, citing Zeus's thunderbolts as volcanic lightning, the boiling earth and sea as a breach of the magma chamber, immense flame and heat as evidence of phreatic explosions, among many other descriptions.

536 CE Volcanic winter of 536

• Documented by Roman historian Procopius, Cassiodorus, Michael the Syrian, Mandaen Book of Kings, Annals of Ulster, Annals of the Tang Dynasty, book of the Later Han, etc.
  • An eruption ejected massive amounts of sulfate aerosols into the atmosphere, which reduced the solar radiation reaching the Earth's surface and cooled the atmosphere for several years and darkening the skies

 

[jonnye]

Modern scholarship sets the date for the Fall of Troy c. -1250 BCE. However, alternative explanations exist which place The Fall in a more reasonable and comprehensible historical context. Evidence shows that Troy fell not at the accepted date, c. -1250 BCE but rather c. -850 BCE and that Helen and Homer were probably contemporaries. Sources from antiquity indicate that Homer studied with Mante, the Oracle at Delphi, daughter of the blind Seer Tirasias of Thebes who were both contemporaries of Jason, i.e. the generation before Helen. Homer’s books contain such minute details of accurate geographical references it is difficult to conclude he was not there to compile the evidence himself. It’s also interesting that, according to the standard chronology, Greek literature begins with the Iliad, the greatest classic in that language. There’s no development of Greek epic composition; it emerges suddenly in full flower. Thus a commentator may write without blinking “if Homer learned to write in the 8th century, there was little or nothing for him to read.” What a joke. There is no reflection upon how a completely evolved epic poetic language, vital to this day, should abruptly emerge in a literary void. This problem is not unlike many other events in the modern study of ancient history, which defy conventional understanding but are easily resolved when one eliminates the 600-year gap in Greek history known as “The Greek Dark Age.”

---

 

[kulapono]

Thanks. I absolutely do think it is better to know nothing.

Btw, I think one can have honest beliefs. This would be where one holds to some idea, but then if some new evidence comes to light one is able to assimilate it and alter one's position accordingly. Another way to describe this is to personally hold to the scientific method - where one's hypotheses are the result of best reasoning, rather than a dogma into which the evidence must be marshalled.

I agree. Ancient History (a very grand term) is merely an everchanging sequence of events that people think or believe happened a long time ago. So when some smartypants starts spouting crap learned in high school history, destroy their world by asking them to prove it.
All the big name historians who are granted mythical status by the white tower academics are nothing but their respective era's YouTubers.
Isn't there supposed to be a brain reset button somewhere behind your kneecap? I've searched for several years.