Thank you.
Collecting Historical clues for calendar manipulation
- Thread starter dreamtime
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Spot the difference!
You said.
Farewellangellina said.
Hence my questions, which farewellangelina kindly answered. Do keep up.
If I may.
"the romans" are just "the normans" pushed back in gregorian calendar terms best I can tell.
With that said going with the sundial during daylight and water clocks at night idea it just sounds too convenient. Why not use the water clocks during daylight as well?
If the sundial is not lit by the sun the people relying on it do not know what the "hour" is so cannot "do" whatever they had to do at that specific hour. Under an overcast sky the sundial is useless.
Possibly astrolabes doesn't sound too convincing either. However it would make much more sense to develop a time passing measuring device that is not reliant on sunlight and is portable if anything attributed to "the romans" is actually true. Given the broad range of inventions that are placed firmly in "of roman origin" by antiquary, historian and academic opinion such a device should not only not been problem for them but should have been deployed everywhere the romans are said to controlled. Which to my mind would mean there should be a lot surviving though the centuries and be discussed, modelled and drawn, painted, photographed...but there aren't.
A time passing measurement device that is now missing...This brings a few thoughts to my mind.
**Maybe our ancestors didn't require a device to measure the passing of time. They may have inherently known what time of day it was due to their closer relationship to the natural world. Meetings would have been planned for "when the sun is directly overhead" or "just after the cock crows."
**The speculated devices could have been destroyed along with the other antiquitech during the 1800's.
**The speculated devices could have been the "iron objects" referred to by Tech_dancer in "The Last of the Mohicans." These were objects that were brought to the Vereya structures daily to recharge with energy for household use like heating, cooking and lighting. Perhaps the "iron objects" had a dial or meter that showed what it's level of charge was. Then throughout the day the meter or dial showed a decreased charge, until it was empty. This movement of the meter could have been used to measure the passing of time.
Thread 'The last of the Mohicans (by tech_dancer)' The last of the Mohicans (by tech_dancer)
More info on vereyas here:
Post in thread 'Moonlight Towers and the Wayne County anomaly' Moonlight Towers and the Wayne County anomaly
**Maybe our ancestors didn't require a device to measure the passing of time. They may have inherently known what time of day it was due to their closer relationship to the natural world. Meetings would have been planned for "when the sun is directly overhead" or "just after the cock crows."
**The speculated devices could have been destroyed along with the other antiquitech during the 1800's.
**The speculated devices could have been the "iron objects" referred to by Tech_dancer in "The Last of the Mohicans." These were objects that were brought to the Vereya structures daily to recharge with energy for household use like heating, cooking and lighting. Perhaps the "iron objects" had a dial or meter that showed what it's level of charge was. Then throughout the day the meter or dial showed a decreased charge, until it was empty. This movement of the meter could have been used to measure the passing of time.
Thread 'The last of the Mohicans (by tech_dancer)' The last of the Mohicans (by tech_dancer)
More info on vereyas here:
Post in thread 'Moonlight Towers and the Wayne County anomaly' Moonlight Towers and the Wayne County anomaly
There is merit in your not requiring a device suggestion. No other life form in this reality has any need of a device to measure passing of time. Many seem to respond to passages of time but only as part of the constant never ending motion we call life and never just the passing of time.
As useful as having a device to note the time or indeed the day of "the year" or of "the season" appears to be to us "contemporary humans" born into the age of time measurement appearances are deceptive.
Locking oneself to the clock , as we all do one way or another, is locking ourselves to an artificial motion at the expense of removing ourselves from the natural motion.
Except on some level we are instinctively aware we are being conned but are too afraid to leave the clock and its partner the calendar and trust ourselves.
That "the calendar" has been and is manipulated is unarguable. There are numerous calendars in use this very day not one of which can be proven one way or the other to be the "true" calendar.
The true calendar is not one of numbers and labels outside of us but is in fact inside of us. It has no describable form, no words, no labels, no numbers, nothing measurable. We know morning from evening without the presence of any device just as we know daylight from night. Our senses and our minds are all we need. In truth its what we need...its what we have.
We have been sold a lie and live our lives in compliance with the lie. If it can be measured its "valuable" is that lie because in creates an illusion of duality where what cannot be measured is not worth anything. Calendars give the illusion of control, of power, of authority. They give us the illusions of a proscribed past and a prescribed future thus preventing us from realising we are present in motion.
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Nice comment.
I would say, once what is an internalised state is externalised, the individual loses control. So, time is not one's own. (Similarly, 'morality' is not one's own if you accept law or a religious book, 'value' is not one's own if you accept money). The way these internal states are externalised is by putting an external, physical prop in place (eg a clock). Once the majority are using the external representation, if you have control of that lever, you have a degree of control over everyone - one cannot disagree with everyone's usage.
That things are externalised and controlled isn't necessarily a 'bad thing'. The problem can rise when one fails to recognise the true, internal piece, and instead believes that the external representation is the real one. Probs this is the idolatry that religions warn about.
I wouldn't say it's an illusion, I would say it is control. No one wants 'time' to move forward or back twice a year, so why does this disruptive shuffle occur? Imo, it's to remind us of the external authority.
I would say, once what is an internalised state is externalised, the individual loses control. So, time is not one's own. (Similarly, 'morality' is not one's own if you accept law or a religious book, 'value' is not one's own if you accept money). The way these internal states are externalised is by putting an external, physical prop in place (eg a clock). Once the majority are using the external representation, if you have control of that lever, you have a degree of control over everyone - one cannot disagree with everyone's usage.
That things are externalised and controlled isn't necessarily a 'bad thing'. The problem can rise when one fails to recognise the true, internal piece, and instead believes that the external representation is the real one. Probs this is the idolatry that religions warn about.
Always thought the normans were the Norse men but who knows? Anyway Romanes eunt domum or some such phrase .
The astrolabe was all mankind needed , developed from watching the stars which moved around like clockwork surprisingly enough.
Astrolabes: How do they work? | cabinet
Over 2,000yrs old technology apparently - probably far older since all you have to do is track the sun, planets and stars and come up with a wooden version of the astrolabe. Astrology may be the oldest real science.
Neglected/hidden by mainstream science but there are still many around .
Edited for early morning spelling mistakes
Spent a goodly stretch of time looking into astrolabes yesterday. This site in particular was well worth it. Especialy the pages in the menu.
Starry Messenger: Islamic Astrolabes and the Calendar
Astrolabes like the sundial need to be set and used with clear skies otherwise they are useless. There are rumours of paper and wooden versions but none have survived apparently but one is available on instructables so...
ASTROLABE - Made Using Paper (medieval Astronomical Instrument)
Still not sure printers and templates were a thing 'back in the day'.
Certainly a paper version would be portable but it would wear and or tear quickly and if it got wet its gone. A wooden version is more durable but prone to breakage and not as portable as a paper one.
If metal smelting and forming were a think then metal versions could go on working for years. A reverse could be made to form a stamp which could be impressed in clay which is then cut and fired to create a terracotta version. If the assembled terracotta version had metal pointers and spindle it would be durable enough for everyday use and not difficult to replace if broken.
Cannot see how any of them are of any use in determinng date, season or time to be honest with you.
Astrolabes tracked and forecast the movements of the stars, planets and the sun across the heavens . Gave sunset/sunrise times , noon and midnight, tracked the seasons , equinoxes ,solstices and the tides amongst its many uses. The only input needed was a disc marked corresponding to ones latitude. Easily found by triangulating to the North star.
That versatile scientific instrument, and the sundial had to be removed from view once the imaginary heliocentric model with it's elliptic planetary orbits was fashioned as a means of control.
The two short videos in the link I posted above are well worth a look.
Apparently Geoffrey Chaucer wrote a treatise on the use of the astrolabe for his son in the 14th C . I might seek out a reprint of that.
That versatile scientific instrument, and the sundial had to be removed from view once the imaginary heliocentric model with it's elliptic planetary orbits was fashioned as a means of control.
The two short videos in the link I posted above are well worth a look.
Apparently Geoffrey Chaucer wrote a treatise on the use of the astrolabe for his son in the 14th C . I might seek out a reprint of that.
Have you used one?
Have you considered making one?
Found Chaucers work with caveat it has been rewritten into modern english.
http://chirurgeon.org/files/Chaucer.pdf
This bit leapt off the page.
Which puts Chaucers astrolabe firmly in the 365 day Gregorian calendar.
Have you found any astrolabes or references to them that predate the introduction of the Gregorian calendar?
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I am looking into getting an astrolabe but I will be visiting a a couple of bookshops first - spend my Christmas book tokens . If they are easy to make then I will try . I do have telescopes - some tripods and a sextant . A trawl around some antique centres might help as well but all will take time.
I suspect the 24hour clock thing against the real day might be the key to the big deception .
I suspect the 24hour clock thing against the real day might be the key to the big deception .
The instructable link I gave back up the page is the easiest and cheapest way to try one out do have a butchers.
The fixed length of the hour is the base of the deception best I can tell. Day length fluctuates on a predictable pattern linked inextricably to the movement of the source of light, the sun. Thats why in the calendar of my own device the 360 day calendar has 180 lengthening days followed by a corresponding 180 shortening days.
Simple and effective. Only difficult bit is knowing as opposed to working out or guessing when the solstices are occuring. We do not seem equipped in sensory terms to notice or attend to these two key days. One occurs 180 sun ups after the other so knowing either will set the other assuming we don't sleep through any!
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A couple years ago I tried changing to another calendar suggested by JD on the thread linked below. This is a calendar of ten months with 36 days each. Day length varies throughout the year as each sunrise starts a new day.
Thread '360 Sun Up Calendar' 360 Sun Up Calendar
It was very enlightening for me. I started it on the Summer Solstice, which is one of the only times the different calendars lined up. I kept both calendars for a period of time. What I learned from it is that I don't want to follow ANY calendar! I learned that it doesn't matter what label we put on a day, it's still just time passing.
I no longer know what "today's date" is until I check an agreed upon time-keeping/date-keeping device. I do still care about days of the week since I do still work at a job and am expected to perform my tasks on certain days. But the timing of the tasks is flexible, so I am mostly able to ignore the clock when I am not actively working.
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Another thought about not requiring a timekeeping device.
**Humans were very likely telepathic with each other in the past. They wouldn't need devices to measure the passing of time or even "meet you at sundown" because they were already in communication with each other.
This is stolen history in action it seems . Thank for all those links - there is something really strange about all this , Gregorian calender was introduced around1582 apparently.
First heard of the Chaucer astrolabe when I decided to look at the astrolabe in general a couple of days ago . Wont bother with the reprint which looks like the translator has edited to suit his own scientism correctness and that's just reading the first page.
Must have a look at your calendar too.
I will see if I can find an online unadulterated copy of Chaucers book.
Found a copy on archive.org published in 1881.
The treatise on the astrolabe of Geoffrey Chaucer; : Chaucer, Geoffrey, d. 1400 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
365 = thre hundred threescore and five.
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Astrolabe entry in the 1897 National Encyclopedia. I copied it word for word from the physical book.
AS'TROLABE from two greek words signifying " to take the stars". It has an earlier and later meaning. As used by Ptolemy it may stand for any circular instrument used for observations of the stars; but in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries it signified the projection of the sphere upon a plane being used in the same sense as the word planisphere.
To this small projection,which had a graduated rim, sights were added for the purpose of taking altitudes; and in this state it was the constant companion and badge of office of the astrologer.
In later times, before the invention of Hadley's quadrant, a graduated circular rim with sights attached, called an astrolabe, was used for taking altitudes at sea.
Quite interesting is it not.
AS'TROLABE from two greek words signifying " to take the stars". It has an earlier and later meaning. As used by Ptolemy it may stand for any circular instrument used for observations of the stars; but in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries it signified the projection of the sphere upon a plane being used in the same sense as the word planisphere.
To this small projection,which had a graduated rim, sights were added for the purpose of taking altitudes; and in this state it was the constant companion and badge of office of the astrologer.
In later times, before the invention of Hadley's quadrant, a graduated circular rim with sights attached, called an astrolabe, was used for taking altitudes at sea.
Quite interesting is it not.
Copernicus' book "De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestius" introduced ,without any new evidence , the heliocentric model in 1543 .
This imaginary ( modern term "theoretic") model could not be accepted at that time since all observation pointed to the geocentric model, deduced correctly from the study of the stars, had earth stationary at the centre of our universe .
Tycho Brahe's geocentric model was the accepted model at the time , earth stationary and all heavenly bodies circling above. The day/night and yearly seasonal cycles were easily discernible for astrologers .
The Gregorian calendar was brought in 1582 to muddle up our natural cycles.
After reading the wonderful threads regarding the 360 day calendar and Jd755 calendar I can see how the deception was carried out , thankyou Starfire and Jd for those links.
All stars including our sun , rise in the east and set in the west always giving a day/night cycle of 23hr 56m 4s (the sidereal day) as measured by the modern misleading 24hr clock.
That daily 3m 56s difference is put down to, by modern scientism, as earth travelling along it's supposed solar orbit by almost 1 degree i.e. 24 x 66,600mph. The fancy "equation of time".
The actual sidereal year has 366.25 days .
The solstices are clear indicators of this natural cycle. The earth is ,to all intent and purpose, stationary or very slow moving.
That is the way I see it. No wonder our seasons are out . Time we went back to nature.
This imaginary ( modern term "theoretic") model could not be accepted at that time since all observation pointed to the geocentric model, deduced correctly from the study of the stars, had earth stationary at the centre of our universe .
Tycho Brahe's geocentric model was the accepted model at the time , earth stationary and all heavenly bodies circling above. The day/night and yearly seasonal cycles were easily discernible for astrologers .
The Gregorian calendar was brought in 1582 to muddle up our natural cycles.
After reading the wonderful threads regarding the 360 day calendar and Jd755 calendar I can see how the deception was carried out , thankyou Starfire and Jd for those links.
All stars including our sun , rise in the east and set in the west always giving a day/night cycle of 23hr 56m 4s (the sidereal day) as measured by the modern misleading 24hr clock.
That daily 3m 56s difference is put down to, by modern scientism, as earth travelling along it's supposed solar orbit by almost 1 degree i.e. 24 x 66,600mph. The fancy "equation of time".
The actual sidereal year has 366.25 days .
The solstices are clear indicators of this natural cycle. The earth is ,to all intent and purpose, stationary or very slow moving.
That is the way I see it. No wonder our seasons are out . Time we went back to nature.
Just to add a bit more to my above post regarding the equation of time and calendar manipulation :
If each day was 24hrs in length and earth travelled around an orbit then after six months midnight and noon would have swapped positions on the clock ,hence the need for the heliocentric models' equation of time . Distraction from the reality that the sun orbits earth.
The earth is observed naturally to be at the centre of our realm.
If each day was 24hrs in length and earth travelled around an orbit then after six months midnight and noon would have swapped positions on the clock ,hence the need for the heliocentric models' equation of time . Distraction from the reality that the sun orbits earth.
The earth is observed naturally to be at the centre of our realm.
Agree, except that the dates are probably wrong. It appears we may actually be satan's little season in the year 1326. Roughly 76 AD= the Great Tribulation, fall of Rome, binding of satan for 1,000 years, 1,000 yr Millennial Reign of Christ=1076. The Unbinding of satan, some kind of related cataclysm, the veiling of the Camp of the Saints and Beloved City ( July 4th,"1776")+250 yrs will come to 7/4/"2026"=the year 1326. The missing people from the large cities may have moved to the Camp of the Saints at the approach of the Little Season, the Unbinding of satan 250 yrs ago, the rest killed in the cataclysm or held in asylums.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFu0HqJ3lts
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Fwiw, the Ethiopian calendar is 7 years behind so their "2012" year was in "2019". I think the Ethiopian calendar is more accurate in some ways.
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