Dating and Chronology

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I think you don't want to answer the question.

Not at all. I am working through each century to understand how the day shift occurs from Julian to Gregorian, then Mercier has a program to investigate Easter dates. But this takes some time to understand.

There is also one key assumption made by Fomenko that may explain what is going on, but I am some way from understanding the whole thing.

On the dates of eclipses, I have worked through the 6 eclipses specified by Bede, and they all agree with Mercier's software. I also checked the places where he mentions the dates of Sundays. These also match up. There is also William of Malmesbury's chronology to work through, also the Anglo saxon chronicle.

More later.
 
Is it possible that Mercier's software was created with the assumption that those dates are all correct, and it was programmed to include them?
 
Not at all. I am working through each century to understand how the day shift occurs from Julian to Gregorian, then Mercier has a program to investigate Easter dates. But this takes some time to understand.

There is also one key assumption made by Fomenko that may explain what is going on, but I am some way from understanding the whole thing.

On the dates of eclipses, I have worked through the 6 eclipses specified by Bede, and they all agree with Mercier's software. I also checked the places where he mentions the dates of Sundays. These also match up. There is also William of Malmesbury's chronology to work through, also the Anglo saxon chronicle.

More later.
Really. You are not understanding the issue at hand because you never opened a book from Fomenko/Nosovsky and therefore what you are doing is simply useless. The problem with the eclipses is explained here: http://chronologia.org/en/seven/1N02-EN-093-126.pdf
Is it possible that Mercier's software was created with the assumption that those dates are all correct, and it was programmed to include them?
Exactly
 
Is it possible that Mercier's software was created with the assumption that those dates are all correct, and it was programmed to include them?

I thought of that, but having compared the Julian to the Gregorian dates, he is clearly using an algorithm similar or identical to the one used by Fomenko and many other astro-chronologists.

See table below.

JulianGregorian
300-01-01300-01-01
400-01-01400-01-02
500-01-01500-01-02
600-01-01600-01-03
700-01-01700-01-04
800-01-01800-01-05
900-01-01900-01-05
1000-01-011000-01-06
1100-01-011100-01-07
1200-01-011200-01-08
1300-01-011300-01-08
1400-01-011400-01-09
1500-01-011500-01-10
1600-01-011600-01-11
1700-01-011700-01-11
 
I thought of that, but having compared the Julian to the Gregorian dates, he is clearly using an algorithm similar or identical to the one used by Fomenko and many other astro-chronologists.

See table below.

JulianGregorian
300-01-01300-01-01
400-01-01400-01-02
500-01-01500-01-02
600-01-01600-01-03
700-01-01700-01-04
800-01-01800-01-05
900-01-01900-01-05
1000-01-011000-01-06
1100-01-011100-01-07
1200-01-011200-01-08
1300-01-011300-01-08
1400-01-011400-01-09
1500-01-011500-01-10
1600-01-011600-01-11
1700-01-011700-01-11
Even this reply shows that you are not understanding the problem. It is NOT about relative dates. It is about absolute dates.

Here the excerpt for you to read by Florin Diacu about the problem with eclipses:

The Almagest, Probabilities, and the Method of Least Squares

The moon's acceleration was only one disagreement between Robert Newton and Anatoly Fomenko. They also strongly differed on the Almagest, the most influential astronomy book ever written. Claudius Ptolemy, one of the greatest scientists of antiquity, wrote it in Alexandria during the reign of the Roman emperor Antoninus Pius, traditionally set from AD 138 to 161. Any firm evidence for a different dating of this treatise would affect the chronology of Rome and consequently most ancient history. This opus touches on the main problems of astronomy, from the nature of the universe to lunar and planetary motion, and contains detailed star catalogs and records of eclipses, occultations, and equinoxes, all of which are prone to mathematical dating. The original version of the Almagest has been lost, but in its many translations the work has been in circulation since ancient times.

In The Crime of Claudius Ptolemy [10], a book published in 1977, Robert Newton accused the ancient astronomer of fabricating evidence. Newton argued that many of the coordinates presented in the Almagest as observations are nothing but fraud. Fomenko disagreed, so he took on the task of dating the book.

His first attempt was based on the fact that every star has a proper motion that is unrelated to the apparent one due to precession. The discovery of this phenomenon is attributed to Edmund Halley, who described it at the beginning of the eighteenth century. Ptolemy had also asked if stars moved independently of each other, but he missed the correct answer.

The motion of stars can be detected only by hundreds of years of precise observations of their tangential components. Using the relative positions given in the Almagest and comparing them with the present ones, Fomenko wanted to find out when the book had been written. But that goal was not easy to achieve. One hurdle was the use of Ptolemy's catalog for tracing the motion of some stars. If the catalog's dating was incorrect, the computed speeds of these stars were also wrong. Fomenko had, therefore, to trace the history of those determinations and eliminate from his analysis the stars related to the Almagest. But the most difficult process was to identify the cataloged stars, a problem that had preoccupied many astronomers starting with the sixteenth century.

In ancient and medieval times the shapes of constellations were not standardized, and their description was often vague. Therefore, telling which star from the catalog corresponds to the one we see in the night sky is difficult. Ptolemy provided positions and magnitudes. For bright objects identification is easier because there are few to choose from, but with faint stars, things get complicated: in the Almagest their coordinates, and also their magnitudes, are often incorrect.

Research done on this problem assumed that the observations were made in the second century AD, a fact that influenced the identification of the stars. The outcome changes for different suppositions. This leads to a circular argument. Fortunately, identification is easier for the stars of zodiacal constellations because they have been studied more carefully for astrological purposes and there is more historical information about them. Of the 350 zodiacal stars recorded in the Almagest, Fomenko chose to focus on the very fast ones, with an individual motion of at least one arc second per year, because slower objects could have traveled distances that were less than those resulting from Ptolemy's observational errors.

Fomenko then applied the method of least squares. He took the distance between the position of a star as recorded in the Almagest and its real position in a given year, as determined by computations. He then summed up the distances for all stars and repeated the procedure for all years within some interval long enough to avoid bias, from 500 BC to AD 1800. Finally, he compared the results and chose the year corresponding to the minimum sum. Estimates for each century pointed out that the only interval in which the errors were smaller than Ptolemy's ten-arc-minute precision was from AD 600 to 1300, with the highest probability around AD 800.

This conclusion depends on several assumptions, and Fomenko checked the reliability of his result. His estimate showed a very small, but nonzero, probability that the Almagest had been written outside this interval. With admissible (but unrealistic) changes in the parameters, the interval could have been extended as far back in time as AD 350, a date still two centuries after the traditional dating. The good news was that the outcome didn't change when slightly varying the data. To gain more confidence in this procedure, he also tested star catalogs from the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, as well as some computer-generated ones. The results proved more than satisfactory: he recovered the known dates within a ten-year margin of error.

The Almagest contains other resources, such as occultations and lunar eclipses, phenomena that are prone to independent dating. Fomenko and his collaborators devised methods to check the dates, which then led them to the time when the Almagest was written. The estimates they obtained were consistent with the previous dating of the Almagest to about AD 800 [3], [4].

So far, historians have ignored these studies, which are published in a mathematics journal that has a reasonably good ranking.
 
Let us keep this very simple.

On what date did the Passover fall in the year 563 AD (Julian calendar)?
 
Even this reply shows that you are not understanding the problem. It is NOT about relative dates. It is about absolute dates.

Here the excerpt for you to read by Florin Diacu about the problem with eclipses:
If this is really his procedure and he didn't fake his numbers, then this is not really up to discussion. It is bullet proof
 
Let us keep this very simple.

On what date did the Passover fall in the year 563 AD (Julian calendar)?

dio3.jpg

And yet, Dionysius Exiguus wrote that the Passover had fallen on March 24, 563 AD:


dio2.jpg
dio1.jpg
 
Well let's take the first step. Mercier (who is not Kepler) has published software available here Calendar conversion program Kairos; font and keyboard utilities which allows to me to select any point in time in the past, using any chosen dating system. Let's say, to avoid any disagreement, the Julian Day Number Julian day - Wikipedia. He then uses astronomical software to determine the position of the sun and moon on that chosen date. That software will use Gauss's algorithm or something like it.

So for example Bede writes "Anno DCCLIII. anno regni Eadbercti quinto, [quinto] Idus Ianuarias eclipsis solis facta est." I.e. in 753on the 9th of January, there was an eclipse of the sun.

Using Mercier's software I can check this, and the software indeed confirms that there was an eclipse on that day.


1622905444916.png

The eclipse you have found is an annular one, with the sun passing through (roughly) the Atlantic, then France, Italy and so on. I have searched from what distance the annular eclipse is still visible. This is the result: how far an annular eclipse is visible - Google zoeken
Around 150 km, therefore Bede could not see an annular eclipse that year, since England is at roughly 500 km from the path showed on the map (it is said that total and annular eclipses cover around 1% of the surface of the Earth).

That brings a question (suggested by Fomenko in his study): what eclipses should be considered as legit to prove something?

Bede talks about another solar eclipse for the year 733 AD and a Lunar one for the same year you mentioned (and I would like to see the graphs for these two too - [Bede: Continuatio]). Since he mentions these two solar eclipses at a distance of 20 years, the first one apparently described (you can confirm this) as total, then it would be logical to presume that he mentioned only the total eclipses, even though this is contradicted by the the eclipse of 753 AD which was partial in England (and even more in Northumbria where he presumably lived).
Therefore it seems strange that he could not report other partial eclipses. You can see here how many partial eclipses one would reasonably expect in 20 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_eclipses_visible_from_the_United_Kingdom#21st_century_(AD_2001_%E2%80%93_2100
One could say that he was mentioning an annular eclipse (without specifying it was annular or giving any kind of description whatsoever) from another place in Europe. Even worse! In that case he should have reported even more eclipses, possibly specifying WHERE those happened and giving some description.

So these "eclipses" don't really prove anything and they are totally useless, as Fomenko has proved. There have been hundreds of partial eclipses in Europe in 1000 years and Bede had apparently failed in his attempt of 753 AD!!! I would like to see the graphs for the other two, if possible, since that of 733 AD also gives the hour and was apparently total, while the second one happened the same month.

Finally... Wasn't Bede (Bede - Wikipedia) supposed to be dead in 753 AD? Did he return from the dead to leave us these incomplete informations about eclipses?

I once again invite you to take a look at Nosovsky's paper which shows how the Council of Nicaea could not happen in 325 ad.
A.FOMENKO. Empirico-Statistical Analysis of Narrative Material and its Applications to Historical Dating (pages 390 - 401 and 401 - 405)
 
Finally... Wasn't Bede (Bede - Wikipedia) supposed to be dead in 753 AD? Did he return from the dead to leave us these incomplete informations about eclipses?
That was the ‘continuatio’, i.e. the continuation of Bede’s work by another hand.

I once again invite you to take a look at Nosovsky's paper which shows how the Council of Nicaea could not happen in 325 ad.
A.FOMENKO. Empirico-Statistical Analysis of Narrative Material and its Applications to Historical Dating (pages 390 - 401 and 401 - 405)

I am still struggling to understand the logic of pages 390-405. I scanned them in and OCR’d them so they are at least readable, but the logic defies me.

There are two sides (1) a paper by Fomenko et al whose logical steps so far escape me (2) a conclusion from that paper which I find utterly implausible, namely that the intellectual history of the middle ages which I know reasonably well turns into a complete illogical nightmare. For example, Byzantine history, Islamic history and so on.

Let us keep this very simple.

On what date did the Passover fall in the year 563 AD (Julian calendar)?

That’s the part I am struggling to understand of the whole argument. The argument seems to depend on the relation between Christian and passover dating. But I am a long way from understanding it.

[EDIT]

Diacu:
In Vlastar’s time, the last condition of Easter was violated: if the first Sunday took place within two days after the full moon, the celebration of Easter was postponed until the next weekend. This change was necessary because of the difference between the real full moon and the one computed in the Easter Book. The error, of which Vlastar knew, is twenty-four hours in 304 years. Therefore the Easter Book must have been written around AD 722.

I don’t understand the ‘therefore’, and also why does the fact that the ‘Easter Book’, the set of rules determining Easter, was written around AD 722 have anything to do with the dating of the Council of Nicea. I can see it would follow if we had firm historical evidence that the Easter Book was determined no later than Nicea, but where is that evidence?
 
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I am still struggling to understand the logic of pages 390-405.

Use this:

Easter Issue

One of the main conclusions of this thread is the following: the main tenets of the Koran had been written down some decades before the books of the Bible were being assembled together (Koran ~1740 AD, Bible ~1780 AD).
 
Use this:

Easter Issue

One of the main conclusions of this thread is the following: the main tenets of the Koran had been written down some decades before the books of the Bible were being assembled together (Koran ~1740 AD, Bible ~1780 AD).

If that is the conclusion, it strongly implies that one or more of the premises is false. For example, our house was built around that time, and my records show that the first owner was a minister in the Church of England. So the Church of England existed at the same time the books of the Bible were being assembled together. Seems slightly implausible to me.
 
Use this:

Easter Issue

One of the main conclusions of this thread is the following: the main tenets of the Koran had been written down some decades before the books of the Bible were being assembled together (Koran ~1740 AD, Bible ~1780 AD).
I have mentions of the bible from before 1780 that I have no reason to doubt from my fathers family archives.
 
Advanced Flat Earth Theory (impossible details relating to Napoleon's biography)

http://www.dillum.ch/html/napoleon_maystre_uebersetzung_09.htm (amazing related events in the history of the reigns of Napoleon III/I)

The entire chronology of history of the 18th century has been falsified.

Since the Council of Nicaea must have taken place at least after the year 876-877 AD, the Gregorian calendar reform of 1582 AD never occurred at all.

Now we know that advanced calculus was used by the architects of the pyramid of Gizeh:

New radical chronology of history

The architects of Gizeh also used the meter (date of discovery 1799 AD, official chronology):

New radical chronology of history

I have mentions of the bible from before 1780

What mentions?

my records show that the first owner was a minister in the Church of England

The records also show that Jean-Felix Picard was a priest, a hypothesis which however is denied by the facts:

Advanced Flat Earth Theory

Everyone here must remember this: the works attributed to Dionysius Exiguus were falsified at least after 1,400 AD.
 
Letters. One says: virgin mary could the book better than any prophets, which the old testament bewrites. It's in danish but I have translated it as good as possible while keeping the weird old syntax intact. Note that I have omitted a part that says "that called bible" because it is hard to know if it refers to the prophets being called the bible or the book.
 
Let me show you something.

The author of Revelation 11:8 tells us that Christ was not crucified in Jerusalem.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. (Rev. 14:8 )

Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits (Rev. 17:9 )

The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth. (Rev. 17:18 )



Great city on seven hills - either Rome or Constantinopole (also built in seven hills -
The Seven Hills of Constantinople )


Furthermore, the crucifixion did not even take place in Jerusalem! According to the book of Revelations, Jesus was crucified in Rome:

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Revelations 11:8, KJV)

The Christians would probably argue that the “great city” refers to Jerusalem, yet the renowned Bible scholar John Gill disagrees:

And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city,.... Not Jerusalem, which was destroyed when John had this vision, and which will not be rebuilt at the time it refers to; nor is it ever called the great city, though the city of the great King; however, not in this book, though the new Jerusalem is so called, Revelation 21:10; but that can never be designed here; but the city of Rome, or the Roman jurisdiction, the whole empire of the Romish antichrist, which is often called the great city in this book; see Revelation 16:19."

The most important clue, which shows that the description can only be fulfilled by Constantinople and not by Rome or Jerusalem:

The woman (city) in Revelation 17:1 also sits on many waters. Istanbul “sits” on or near the Sea of Marmara, the Golden Horn River, the Bosphorus Strait, the Black Sea, the Aegean Sea, the sea of Crete, and the Mediteranean Sea.


Babylon = Constantinople = Troy

History, Fiction Or Science?

Chapter I, section 10, the locations of Troy and Babylon, pg. 42 - 44


The Book of Apocalypse/Revelations dated astronomically to no earlier than 1486 AD:

History, Fiction Or Science?

Chapter 3: The new dating of the astronomical horoscope as described in the Apocalypse, pg. 134-166
 
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by another hand
It seems correct to me. And this is one of the main reasons why these texts are unreliable dating-wise. How many hands touched this chronicle?
a conclusion from that paper which I find utterly implausible, namely that the intellectual history of the middle ages which I know reasonably well turns into a complete illogical nightmare. For example, Byzantine history, Islamic history and so on.
I totally understand your struggle and perplexities.
I don’t understand the ‘therefore’, and also why does the fact that the ‘Easter Book’, the set of rules determining Easter, was written around AD 722 have anything to do with the dating of the Council of Nicea. I can see it would follow if we had firm historical evidence that the Easter Book was determined no later than Nicea, but where is that evidence?
Cattura10.PNG
 
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I questioned whether "we had firm historical evidence that the Easter Book was determined no later than Nicea". You replied quoting an *assertion* that Nicea "canonised the Easter Book". What is the *evidence* for that assertion please? I have looked for evidence, cannot find it.
 
I questioned whether "we had firm historical evidence that the Easter Book was determined no later than Nicea". You replied quoting an *assertion* that Nicea "canonised the Easter Book". What is the *evidence* for that assertion please? I have looked for evidence, cannot find it.
oops I didn't understand
 
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