Historical Substitution in the Context of Ukrainian-russian Relations

[Kayola]

P.S. Few minutes ago i search stolenhistory in google and see one interesting text in English, that says about Ukrainian history that was stolen by russian in the past and nowadays Ukraine's Stolen History, Stolen Culture . But i want to write here not to share this link. My first wich was to share one interesting video in english, that tell about soviet propahanda and how it works to create alternative history in that believe russians
View: https://youtu.be/RtLAijoJ6Lk
. Its not a lot videos about it in English, so i decide that this channel can be interesto to stolenhistory community

 

[Safranek]

But i want to write here not to share this link. My first wich was to share one interesting video in english, that tell about soviet propahanda and how it works to create alternative history in that believe russians

Well, I've already shared this video (also in English) done by a Canadian investigative reporter who goes by the name of Amazing Polly. She does a superior job of hunting down pertinent information regarding many subjects, this one happens to be about the lead-up to the current state of affairs in this so-called war and some of the people behind it.


View: https://www.bitchute.com/video/3sgengf5mdXU/


The video you posted is biased, as its by a Ukrainian presenting it without doing ANY real research into the background of the 'leaders' of his country, and choosing to only take note of the 'brainwashing' hoisted upon the Russian people for the last couple of hundred years. What he fails to notice is not only that the same has been done to Americans with regards to Russians (Cold War), but to the rest of the nations also, including Ukrainians.

When you look at the BIG picture and NOT from a nationalistic view, you notice that all nations have been had, including the Germans, British, Irish, Italians, Americans, Chinese, Indians, etc., its called divide and conquer. All have had their histories modified and partially erased and have been 'inspired' to nationalistic views.

As long as people fail to look outside their box and localize their observations (while omitting to indiscriminately look at themselves), we will continue to have the same, people blaming other people instead of those truly responsible. More reporters doing actual research like Polly would be a big plus to counter the MSM and Altmedia BS.

On a side note, that video post compromises the historical integrity of the OP as it regurgitates the MSM narrative.

 

[Froglich]

I recently came across an interesting article which led me to some thoughts on the topic of how the alternativeists, globalists and conspiracy theory worshippers are not perceived adequately by the global community and most people.

When all non-"pirate" establishment and "alternative" media are firmly under the thumb of Cabal, they are the gatekeepers of awareness. If a particular theory isn't "perceived adequately" by "most people", it's because the algorithms are downrating it if not outright blacklisting it.

"Most people" only know what is blared in their face from the TV, checkout-stand newspaper headlines, and Google "sponsored" returns hogging the page-tops of search inquiries.

This post is primarily intended to show that Ukraine has always been a separate independent state with its own history and culture, and that Russia's "brotherly" attitude is just a myth to justify constant aggression against Ukraine.

Russia, Ukraine, and every NATO nation (and most others elsewhere) are Cabal pseudopod facades, and their leaders are giggling clown actors.

The Ukraine war is as real as a WWE cage match.

 

[Kayola]

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

When all non-"pirate" establishment and "alternative" media are firmly under the thumb of Cabal, they are the gatekeepers of awareness. If a particular theory isn't "perceived adequately" by "most people", it's because the algorithms are downrating it if not outright blacklisting it.

"Most people" only know what is blared in their face from the TV, checkout-stand newspaper headlines, and Google "sponsored" returns hogging the page-tops of search inquiries.



Russia, Ukraine, and every NATO nation (and most others elsewhere) are Cabal pseudopod facades, and their leaders are giggling clown actors.

The Ukraine war is as real as a WWE cage match.

When shells fall in your city, destroying your neighbors and comrades, the war does not look like a fictitious cage match. One can theorize about anything, but theory becomes attached to reality only when the object of theorizing becomes part of one's life. Otherwise it may just as well be the truth as it is a figment of a sick fantasy. And we are not talking here about any countries, because even if we assume that once there was a single government on planet Earth, its hierarchy still implied a division into regions. The difference in the mentality of the inhabitants of these regions, their reactions to the same things, traditions, genetics and so on, allows us to talk about ethnicities or nationalities as something quite objective. In fact, we are talking about the processes of the formation of history, its substitution, creating a difference in the perception of the same events of literally 150 years ago. Events, about which I personally told my great-grandfathers based on their personal childhood memories. Now we have the opportunity to observe the attempts to change the historical paradigm and substitution of concepts in real time, moreover - to observe the impact that is also on you.

The video you posted is biased, as its by a Ukrainian presenting it without doing ANY real research into the background of the 'leaders' of his country, and choosing to only take note of the 'brainwashing' hoisted upon the Russian people for the last couple of hundred years.

I think the question of bias is irrelevant to where one comes from. Bias is more about personal beliefs that people from any country can have about anything. The question of bias is a question of being able to be objective in spite of these personal beliefs. The author did not choose Zelensky's or putin's biography as the main topic of the video. He did not choose the topic of how much Americans distort and deform history to please themselves (despite the fact that this happens, this topic is simply not on the agenda). He tried to explain to the English-speaking audience what the history of the last 200 years looks like from the point of view of Ukrainians. It is not, of course, about alternative views of history, but about the official one. But alternative history is based on the inconsistencies of official history, isn't it? Personally, I decided to share this video, because I believe that the automatic translation of the article at the beginning of this thread is much less comprehensible to the English-speaking seeker than the video, which is done more intelligently from a language point of view.

When you look at the BIG picture and NOT from a nationalistic view, you notice that all nations have been had, including the Germans, British, Irish, Italians, Americans, Chinese, Indians, etc., its called divide and conquer. All have had their histories modified and partially erased and have been 'inspired' to nationalistic views.

If you base it on an alternate history, yes. However, we should not forget that this is only one of the hypotheses about one great nation that was divided. There are other hypotheses as well. For example, I personally can trace the history to the end of the 19th century based only on the words of eyewitnesses whom I personally knew. And these are my relatives. We can only speculate what it was 200 or 300 years ago based on facts which we give varying degrees of credibility. The official historical paradigm says that the state represented the ruler and vice versa. An insult to the ruler was an insult to the whole state. In the early 20th century, the concept of national identity emerged, and it was formed to realize the redistribution of the world, the transition from the era of empires to the next era. Prior to that, the singling out of this identity was not necessary, since the life of a serf or a slave does not change much when the master changes. On the other hand, we should not forget that in the 18th and 19th centuries the same thing was happening, only on a larger scale, the spheres of influence were more global. Instead of the concept of national identity was the concept of religious identity. No one was interested in whether you were Ukrainian or Polish, for example. They were interested in something else: whether you were an Orthodox Christian or a Catholic. Or maybe you were a Muslim? Or a Jew? Religious identity was used to justify the war for control of territories. This was explained by the need to spread religions and punish heretics. Now the justification for the war over territory is to protect one's ethnicity abroad. Except that the mode of life has changed, and if 200 years ago people were a resource that produces food and extracts resources, and in the wars participated mostly by the nobility, which earned status and influence, now instead of people works technology. The result is quite clear and obvious. Besides, 250 years ago the religious justification was enough to try to take possession of the barbaric lands of non-believers. Regarding the states with their faith it was necessary to get the blessing of the Pope, the true ruler of the Catholic world, but that is not the point. This is about the grounds that could be presented as a reason to occupy uncontrolled territory. And for this they use the national identity, and if it does not exist, they create a fiction. They substitute history, create fake documents. It is in such processes that I see the reason for many inconsistencies in the historical documents of previous centuries.

people blaming other people instead of those truly responsible

This is a philosophical question. Who is to blame for a contract killing - the direct killer, or the person who ordered it? I think it's both.

On a side note, that video post compromises the historical integrity of the OP as it regurgitates the MSM narrative.

What is it MSM?

 

[Kayola]

Well, let's delight the public with a Russian-Ukrainian dialogue.

No. I say all that i want and i dont want to discuss anything about nowadays (not about history) with you or other russians that says that russia doing good when it killed ukrainians on Ukrainian territory and who distributes narratives about preventive attacks and so on. This thred is not about this. This thred is about how russia corrects the history to take what it want in the past. How russia create alternative history in which it is greate. There are another thred about politic (i not read it, because i see all of this on my own eyes here, where i live) - you may exude your poison there. I dont understand why this person (iseidon) came here and answer not about OP but about another things. Russian warship go out. Any dialog with terrorist state and it members from me. I must speak with you, when my relatives and friends are killed by russian forces that occupied the therritory of my land?!! NO!

 

[Deleted member 37]

It remains the fact that there's no intention to discuss the points brought up in the OP. It is evident how Ukraine has always suffered the invasions of the multi-ethnic and multi-coloured Muscovites/Mongols since the very beginning.

 

[Safranek]

It is evident how Ukraine has always suffered the invasions of the multi-ethnic and multi-coloured Muscovites/Mongols since the very beginning.

Yes, but is this not also true for most other nations? The question is who was/is responsible. The nations? Or the financiers who stood to gain every step of the way? This is the issue not being addressed.

 

[Deleted member 37]

Yes, but is this not also true for most other nations? The question is who was/is responsible. The nations? Or the financiers who stood to gain every step of the way? This is the issue not being addressed.

I agree with you even though I'm not sure if there's a continuity of the story preceeding the last couple hundred years. I know how Russia was conquered by the Jews through their new communst invention, but I have a hard time thinking about the Romanovs as the same faction or in any case a faction related to that world.
But these are just themes for another thread I suppose!

When I started to answer the OP's topic my posts were deleted.

It was deleted because you were not addressing the points made in the OP and following posts and you still aren't. And I remember what you posted and I know that you know it.
Would you please at least try to address one of the points? The entire forum is full of your opinions on phylosphy, psychology, politics etc.

@Kayola please don't fall for it. You already did twice and you are going for the third time, I see it.
@Kayola you should in any case report the posts made to change the subject of the OP, like this one fror example (Historical Substitution in the Context of Ukrainian-russian Relations).

 

[Kayola]

I just share one documental video here about independence of Ukraine in 1991. It was created by Ukrainians and show the Ukrainian history of 1990-th. There are a lot of russian historical narratives in official history and alternative history of European and American community. Its because russia do special work to share its narrative in west community. Maybe, it would be interesting for someone here, because it have english (and other european languages) subtitles. There are many unique videos there (for examle, when american president came to Ukraine in 1990th, and so on).


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X-jou18qKU

P.S. Details about how russian narratives shares in other country you can see for example in this video (also has English subtitles)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4irVPoUti48

 

[dreamtime]

When I started to answer the OP's topic my posts were deleted.

There's only one of your posts in this thread that actually addresses history and not politics, and that post is still up.

The others aren't. You are writing endless walls of text, obfuscating your real motivation, and derailing the entire discussion away from actual history.

As silveryou mentioned, saying "As you can see, no one is right." is just a convenient escape to abstract philosophy in order to look down on Ukrainians for you as a Russian.

You can look at the arguments provided in the OP, and quote specific sentences, and add concise data and material that supports or refutes the points. But walls of texts that don't get to the point won't be accepted.

As a reminder, this thread is about the historical relationship between Ukraine and Russia, independent of your opinion on what Ukraine was all about philosophically.

 

[iseidon]

Response to this post.

Original link: 15 міфів російської історії

You should give the original link
Do you know what the other reason for not providing a link to the original is? There are words like that in there:

Once again, I will emphasize that I am not the author of this statement of myths, but I believe this text is worthy of attention. The author of this statement to indicate the reference is, unfortunately, unknown to me, but it is based on the novel research of Vladimir Belinsky "The Land of Moxel" and has the right to exist. The listed myths help to show that despite great-power chauvinism and other slogans in support of the unification of the lands, as well as Russia's "great" goal, Russia's actions in Crimea and eastern Ukraine are nothing more than barbaric unjustified aggression, which has happened more than once and is confirmed by history.

Original (rus).

A splendid argument? You don't see any politics here?

And this is what this Vladimir Belinsky (ukr), the author of this novel-study book (cool classification?) looks like:

Sorry, but I couldn't find any other (in my youth) pictures (I didn't look deep).

Can you feel the true Slavic and Aryan spirit?

Just in case, this man is saying something to someone about being non-Slavic. His books are used for the foundation of most Ukrainian Russophobic propaganda. @Silveryou, how do you like such a fighter for a pure nation?

SilverYou: ... Ukrainians are not Russians and are certainly a more well defined and healthy nation, since you Russians are just a confused people united by a dispotic government. ... Original.

By the way, the great patriot of Ukraine lived for 40 years (and achieved great heights in the transport and construction industries) in Soviet Kazakhstan. He returned to Ukraine in 1999. Information from the book mentioned in the original article:

Vladimir Bronislavovich Belinsky was born May 18, 1936 in Podolia. In 1959 graduated from Dnepropetrovsk Institute of Railway Transport Engineers, department "Bridges and tunnels". By assignment sent to work in Kazakhstan. From 1959 till 1986 he lived and worked in Karaganda. Directed the construction of bridges on Kazakhstan Magnitogorsk, the canal Irtysh-Karaganda, in the mines of the Karaganda coal basin, on all roads and railroads of Central Kazakhstan. He built bridges in major cities such as Karaganda, Pavlodar, Temir-Tau, Ekibastuz, Balkhash, Jezkazgan, Shakhtinsk, etc. Since 1982, he worked in the system of the Ministry of Heavy Construction of Kazakhstan as a land assistant of the head of the Glavka and the head of the Glavka. He was a member of the Board of the State Construction Committee of Kazakhstan. In 1999 he returned home to Ukraine. He lives in Kiev.

And the president of the publishing house (part-time, a major Ukrainian politician) that published this book... Guess where the great patriot of Ukraine died? Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, British Commonwealth of Nations. Am I surprised? No.

Perhaps I will read this "masterpiece" (if that makes sense) of the 2006 publisher, but the general intellectual level of those who liked the Kayola user's posts, I understand. I hope you now understand why the West is in crisis? It turns out, you can throw any information throw-in and pass it off as the truth. No one will check the information anyway. Rhetorical question. When you write your research, do you rely on this level of information? No politics here?

Tell me, for whom do I write "in my opinion", "in my opinion", etc. in my posts (where it comes to assumptions, hypotheses, my opinion and experience). Why search for references and sources? Why parsing foreign dictionaries to better penetrate cultures? Why the need for etymological dictionaries? If you can make up anything you want and pass it off as truth under the right agenda...

This post is primarily intended to show that Ukraine has always been a separate independent state with its own history and culture...

Where is this information about «Ukraine has always been a separate independent state» in the cited "myths"?

---

Two paragraphs (without an introduction) at the beginning. Two lies. And direct ones at that. You knew for a fact that you didn't give the original link. And you knew for sure that there was not a word about Ukrainian statehood in this article (or you didn't read the text you published). Do I need to prove anything further? Or does anyone even think it will get better from here?

 

[Deleted member 37]

Reported. I don't care about your feelings to be fair. I couldn't read all your long post because I'm not going to lose time about how you feel about anything, especially because the entire forum is full of your feelings. I don't even know if you addressed some points in this post. It's just unreadable!

edit: btw, it's now clear that you do it on purpose. The strategy is to derail every thread you deem uncomfortable with walls of text full of feelings and victimism in order to attract the simpaties of the poor prople like you and then cry when the eeeeevil westerners decide to ban you, expecially when the admin is an eeeevil german...
We've seen this script multiple times.

 

[Kayola]

I don't care about your feelings to be fair. I couldn't read all your long post because I'm not going to lose time about how you feel about anything, especially because the entire forum is full of your feelings.

+
I read only the first part of it. As usually - nothing about points in OP (just about its author).
Offtop: There were many points in the past when russian empire tries to transform ukrainian language to make it more similar with russian language. Today the ukrainian language rules are partly returned in rules of 1930-th (speaking language that were before holodomor and before henocide of ukrainians that speaks on it). But Ukraine is democratic country, and we can speak here in language that we want. By the other side, those, who speaks russian before (speaking russian is a result of it cultural attack that starts few hundred years ago) now start speak ukrainian in its today life. Because russian language for more of us became the language of terror. Now we see how in occupied territories childs starts their study year bu russian school program. Because now its a criminal there to study online in ukrainian schools that are outside occupied territories. Ten years after this childs would speak russian. This history builds now. This history repeats the past. Thats why many ukrainians speak russian (but after 2014 this situation changes).
P.S. Sorry for my bad english: sometimes i try to write without translater (when i speak about something not hard).

 

[Safranek]

I don't care about your feelings to be fair. I couldn't read all your long post because I'm not going to lose time about how you feel about anything, especially because the entire forum is full of your feelings. I don't even know if you addressed some points in this post. It's just unreadable!

To be fair, for a guy with your talent for research, I'm surprised why this line in the first quote of the article didn't get your attention;

​

"Once again, I will emphasize that I am not the author of this statement of myths, but I believe this text is worthy of attention."​

The key word there is 'myths'. If the poster quoted in the OP considers the article to be myths, that's grounds for questioning, which was looked into and elaborated by iseodon. Feelings would not be the issue here but the facts concerning the given subject of the OP, it's a shame you focused on the first and omitted addressing the second, certainly not your style considering your well-founded replies in other threads.

The reply you responded to certainly isn't unreadable, while I do admit he sometimes over-elaborates certain ponts it does give clarity to his point of view, the reply does address the OP by questioning the integrity and purpose of the writer, demonstrating not only the possibility, but probability of political motivation. This should ring alarm bells for a researcher of your caliber.

it's now clear that you do it on purpose. The strategy is to derail every thread you deem uncomfortable with walls of text full of feelings and victimism in order to attract the simpaties of the poor prople like you and then cry when the eeeeevil westerners decide to ban you, expecially when the admin is an eeeevil german...

So, you didn't read his post, but without doing so you have presented a strategy of 'derailing every thread'.

If you don't have the time or make the effort to consider the implications in a proper rebuttal, writing such a paragraph as quoted above becomes the replacement of such.

A proper definition of the above paragraph written by you would be an 'accusation'. One made on the basis of not having read the post you replied to, and instead of a proper rebuttal, you replaced it with an accusation of iseodon purposely derailing threads. I don't need to ask your about your opinion regarding such behavior.

Additionally, since you mentioned one of the MODs (dreamtime), his effort to keep the thread on topic was based on the available info at that time, and indeed iseodon wrote long posts barely touching the OP, which were deleted for the given reason.

However, in this case, since the post (which you failed to address even partially) directly addresses the questionable foundation of the OP and classifies it as a myth, had you read it, you may have addressed its implications.

On a side-note, we do have an ignore function, so if you don't wish to read someone's posts due their type of style, longevity, or 'feelings', you'd be better off to use it instead of making an accusation such as the purposeful derailing of threads while admitting you don't even read the post.

 

[Deleted member 37]

Feelings would not be the issue here but the facts concerning the given subject of the OP, it's a shame you focused on the first and omitted addressing the second, certainly not your style considering your well-founded replies in other threads.

I think it's a shame that some mods blocked this thread even before a whatsoever answer was given to the various points addressed in the OP. Was it you @Safranek? I obviously have proof for what I'm saying and kayola knows it well.
It seems some mod was not ok with this thread being discussed on this forum and I felt the need to stop eventual Russian trolls to come here and do their usual victimist cries while bullying the author of the thread, which is exactly what iseidon does in a great number of posts involving his precious Holy Mother Muscovy.

As for the article saying 'myths', I think you should wash your face when you wake up in the morning, because it is absolutely clear that the myths referred to are the ones spread by Russian propaganda. And if you try to 'accuse' a guy who uses the translator for these posts then I have to conclude that your modding is really poor or mayvbe even worse.

Was it you, @Safranek, who blocked the thread immediately after it came out?

I would like to have the opinion of @dreamtime too, since he knows about the 'preventive' blocking of this thread.

edit: so I'm reporting the previous post again, because it's 90% cries cries and 10% answer to the OP.
edit2: and btw, all is going in the direction of having this thread blocked. Nice job, Russian trolls!

 

[Kayola]

The key word there is 'myths'. If the poster quoted in the OP considers the article to be myths

If you read the article, you may understand, that it describes the lies of russian historical narratives. This lies were named "myths" because there is no truth in there. Below each of the points there is a description why every of this onformation is false.

However, in this case, since the post (which you failed to address even partially) directly addresses the questionable foundation of the OP and classifies it as a myth

Maybe there is incorrect of translation. Noone classified information in OP as a myth. In the article russian correction of historical facts named "myths" to show that there are incorrect. If you also use translator from english to germany and double translation loose the sence - i gave original link..
P.S. It is sad for me to see that three person like the post where as an argument author shows a photo of Ukrainian writer who see the myths in russian narratives. The post without comments or oppinion about this narratives called "myths", but which contains telling about "in what language speaks ukrainians at home" and so on.

 

[Safranek]

Was it you, @Safranek, who blocked the thread immediately after it came out?

It was not I who blocked it but I understand the reasoning behind it. Unfortunately, it can be easily foreseen to devolve into the kind of rhetoric as witnessed above. There is nothing wrong with discussing any subject or having different points of view based on ethnic, racial, or religious lines as the point of view becomes evident to all readers for its lack of objectivity. However, the manner in which is discussed should be respectful even when one presents an opposing view and should not devolve into accusations and such.

As for the article saying 'myths', I think you should wash your face when you wake up in the morning, because it is absolutely clear that the myths referred to are the ones spread by Russian propaganda.

Yes the myths represent the author's view regarding the quoted Russian version of history, my mistake.

I felt the need to stop eventual Russian trolls to come here and do their usual victimist cries while bullying the author of the thread, which is exactly what iseidon does in a great number of posts involving his precious Holy Mother Muscovy.

So here we have feelings again, this time yours. You have labeled a post with no condescending attitude as 'bullying' and made mocking statements ' precious Holy Mother Muscovy' and 'and then cry when the eeeeevil westerners decide to ban you, expecially when the admin is an eeeevil german...'. This is anything buy constructive.

I agree with you that intelligent discussion should happen regardless of the point of view but it should be done respectfully and when this is not the case, the future of a thread comes into question. Do YOUR bit to keep the discussion civil and respectful and you'll be in a more credible position to affect the future integrity of threads of interest to you in general.

 

[Deleted member 37]

I agree with you that intelligent discussion should happen regardless of the point of view but it should be done respectfully and when this is not the case, the future of a thread comes into question. Do YOUR bit to keep the discussion civil and respectful and you'll be in a more credible position to affect the future integrity of threads of interest to you in general.

I'm doing my bit by reporting these walls of text where few points are addressed and much Muscovite lore is spread without you caring about it.
And I obviously report the last text-wall by your friend iseison, who has a free pass to fill threads with his feelings. It is absurd that you say to me about Muscovy and nothing about iseidon with thousands of words in the same line.

I ask @dreamtime to say something, also about the dubious behavior of @Safranek, who is not doing is job to protect the author of the thread from iseidon's accusations and couldn't even, by his own admission, understand the meaning of the OP, and still he had the nerve to reply.

 

[Kayola]

On a side-note, we do have an ignore function, so if you don't wish to read someone's posts due their type of style, longevity, or 'feelings', you'd be better off to use it

Thanks for information, iseidon go out

 

[Gladius]

@iseidon

So from your words, you perfectly understand why Ukrainian singers use Russian for coverage, but when Ukrainian youtubers or bloggers use Russian it proves that they're not nationalistic? Contradicting much.

Why would they publish their opinions in Ukrainian? To preach to the choir? It's Russian speaking peoples they need to reach to. That arguement is weak in itself. In Georgia the old generation commonly speak Russian as much as Georgian, and in family circles Russian is used despite the strong Georgian nationalism that took place. So Georgian nationalism is also a fraud?
The same process is taking place in many former Soviet countries such as Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Estonia and more.