Rome - Money - Land Enclosure

Metal coins had no "home" the way sovereign currencies did. They were freely circulating and could not be "redeemed" anywhere. Both Mefobills and Joseph Farrell underline the way that stateless merchants (Jews for Mefobills, Venetians for Farrell) cleverly used freely-circulating metal currency, falsely seen as possessing value "in itself", to speculatively pit one city-state's sovereign currency against another's. Gold and silver were alternately made artificially scarce (by hoarding) and artificially abundant in order to raise and lower the exchange rate on the real sovereign currencies issued by city-states and convertible into real wealth, allowing coin owners to subvert and capture previously self-contained economies. The crucial "problem" with metal coinage was that debts enumerated in precious metal could not be released by an act of the Temple or king since such money was intrinsically extraterritorial. This is the origin of the situation in which we find ourselves today, in which the black magick of compound interest has created an absurd predicament in which the total amount of debt on the books is far greater than the total amount of "money" on Earth, yet there is no mechanism by which the impossible, unpayable debts can be forgiven. In ancient Mesopotamia, kings would simply jubilee such debt and start over.

From an interview with economic historian Michael Hudson about his book, "The Collapse of Antiquity: Greece and Rome as Civilization's Oligarchic Turning Point":

Considering the Collapse of Antiquity and the Bank Panic

MICHAEL HUDSON: Well, what happened in Greece and Rome is very much like what is happening today. And there’s a common denominator in all of the Western Financial systems, debts grow by compound interest.

That is, any rate of interest has a doubling time. [Debts] sweep up steadily, and the real economy grows much more slowly, so that debts mount up without the economy being able to pay them and there’s a crash.

Well, before you had Greece and Rome, you had 3,000 years of Near Eastern civilization realizing this.

And periodically, every new ruler that would come to the throne in the Near East for thousands of years would simply wipe the slate clean of personal debts and start all over, in balance. Because they realized that if you didn’t cancel the debts, then you would have your citizens fall into bondage and would have to work for their creditors and lose their land to foreclosing creditors. All the land would end up in the hands of just a few creditors who would usually overthrow the the government and try to take over.

Well, what made Greece and Rome and all subsequent societies, down to today’s United States, so different is they didn’t cancel the debts. They left the debts in place. And instead of having a ruler, or some central authority able to stop an oligarchy from developing and taking over and monopolizing all of the money and all the land, there wasn’t any central ruler.

This is usually called democracy. But democracies for the last 2500 years have not been very good at being able to check the rise in credit or interest. And that’s why Aristotle said that many constitutions of the Greek states claim to be democratic but they were really oligarchic.

And Aristotle said, — Under democracy, creditors begin to make loans and the debtors can’t pay and the creditors get more and more money, and they end up turning a democracy into an oligarchy, and then the oligarchy makes itself hereditary, and you have an aristocracy.

And unless members of the aristocracy say, — Wait a minute, we’re bankrupting society, we’re reducing the whole society to poverty. Nobody’s going to fight for us anymore because they’re all in bondage.

Unless you have some member of the upper class or some family taking over, like Cleisthenes did in Athens in 506 BC, then you’re going to have what happened in Rome — a Dark Age.

And a Dark Age is when the creditors take over and reduce all the rest of the economy to bondage. Or today you call it “austerity” or “debt deflation”.
 
Why are you posting on a forum called 'stolenhistory' if all history is false and nothing can be trusted?

Here to propose some cancel history judeo-american thingy?

If this forum was called "history" I could understand your point. But it's not, it's called *stolen*history ... something I suspect we both can agree.
if nothing can be trusted as historical fact, there cannot be a stolen history, there would be no history at all.

As long as people have memories, we'll have history (what you had for lunch today is history :)

The history in question, however, is what we have inherited, both written and through indoctrination. These are the paradigms that continue control over our reality today.
 
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The official narrative states that North Africa, especially on the Mediterranean coast, was a beautiful, fertile land with fruit trees etc 2000 years ago.

The official narrative states that the Romans clear cut the trees to grow corn (spelt in fact) and destroyed the ecosystem, much like what we are doing in the Amazon now, where a lush tropical ecosystem which is self sustaining is cut down, crops grow abundantly for 10-15 years, then cattle graze for another 20 years or so before it turns to desert and cannot sustain food crops at all.

We have maps from the 1500s showing forests and rivers where there is now desert in places like North Africa and Arabia, depending on how you interpret the information, of course.

Let's imagine that there was some kind of worldwide positive energetic technology system in operation during the 1500s when all those areas which are now desert appeared to be green. We can call this system 'The Divine Feminine.' This system operates as a terraforming energy, maintaining abundance and fertility. Or we could just say people lived in a different paradigm.

At some point, which I estimate to be around 400 years ago, something triggered the system to go into reverse and cause massive, widespread, near-instantaneous destruction including desertification and other phenomena, followed by intermittent bursts of similar activity, and maybe some slower acting long term degradations as well. Rome was really only destroyed around that time or sometime later. I can't find the information I want anywhere online quickly, but the date that has been in my mind since school 40 years ago is around c. 670 for the end of Rome. The aqueduct system stopped working then. We are now calling this i670 or j670. It could have been buried in mud at the same time, the official narrative says it was buried in mud for at least the last 300 years (correct me if I'm wrong) and was only dug out in the 1920s as far as I know.

Many people have postulated a destructive reverse terraforming technology, let's assume this was responsible. You could say instead alchemists discovered how to upset the balance of Nature in an industrial fashion.

In which case, the moving of Rome a thousand years earlier would be a great way to hide what really happened. The official narrative says North Africa was green, fertile and abundant 2000 years ago and was destroyed by the Roman overfarming. Really, North Africa was green and abundant only 400 years ago. Go ahead and fill in the details yourselves.

While writing this up and doing some elementary fact checking I found the generally accepted date for the fall of the Roman Empire is taken from the splitting of the Eastern and Western empires at 476AD.

Working again with the thousand missing years theory, the splitting of Eastern and Western empires is same event as the reformation. Henry 8th split off the English part of it in i490. Then some decades later around c. i530 he 'Dissolved' the Monasteries, which reduced a lot of the biggest and most beautiful buildings of the Age to be reduced to rubble. (Cf around a century later Oliver Cromwell was unable to damage the remaining cathedrals with the resources he had available.)

The Catholic and Protestant churches split in two, but in fact both continued to be owned and controlled by the same actors. Protestantism was entirely stage managed by the same actors. There is no Roman Empire, it was only ever the RCC. Or one is an extension of the other. Everything attributed to the Romans is just the enforcement arm of the church, at least from when the church was adopted. I was always told the adoption of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire was around 400AD, certainly after St Catherine, who was martyred around c. 380AD. I'm really sketchy on my Roman history, so what happened before that is rather vague to me. After browsing this forum, for a year or so I can see evidence most of the things which are said to be up to 2000 years ago could really be anywhere from only 600 to a thousand years ago, but there's lots of different things to consider there which I know very little about.

What happened after is much more clear. 1492 is the date of Cortez landing in Mexico and beginning the systematic, deliberate destruction of what was probably the most advanced civilisation in the world at the time, with a population estimated by the official narrative to be at least 200 millions. They had advanced aquaculture systems in the massive lakes around Tenochtitlan (CDMX) producing exponentially more food per acre than our modern agricultural systems are capable of. The parasites poisoned everything. It took hundreds of years to destroy this great civilisation which has been totally misrepresented in our Western history books. If human sacrifice was ever practiced in Mexico it was only after the invaders had fully taken control and poisoned and killed everything. Wikipedia says At least 12 epidemics are attributed to cocoliztli, with the largest occurring in 1545, 1576, 1736, and 1813. Cocoliztli is a Nahtual word meaning 'Action everywhere.' Co is the passive voice of the verb 'To Be' and is often used to mean 'Place.' The Gaelic would be 'Llan.' A plural or large quantity of anything in Nahuatl can be indicated by the doubling of a syllable, so coco means absolutely everywhere, in all places, every being. 'Liztli' is a suffix which makes anything preceding it into a verb. It's a way of verbing nouns and other things.

1492 is also the date of the creation of the Spanish inquisition and the date the last Moors were driven out of Spain.

I think the official narrative says we had cannibalism in Northern Europe including UK early 1600s, but the official narrative misses out the cataclysm which caused it, which I'm more and more sure is around c.1600
 
There is a Christian narrative that after the crucifixion, Jesus would return and the world would have 1000 years of peace. After which, the devil would regain power.

Someone has suggested that this has already happened, and that we have been living in this post peaceful world ever since ...
 
There is a Christian narrative that after the crucifixion, Jesus would return and the world would have 1000 years of peace. After which, the devil would regain power.

Someone has suggested that this has already happened, and that we have been living in this post peaceful world ever since ...


Its possible Earth is actually the devil. Gaia cults could actually be in the service of satan? If the devil could regain power the best way is a nice safe of guns and lots of Gaia minions.

"Astrobiologists Suggest the Earth Itself May Be an Intelligent Entity

This is mind bending." Astrobiologists Suggest the Earth Itself May Be an Intelligent Entity


So, if Earth is intelligent then all of the planets in the solar system are at least somewhat sentient - pro or con or neutral man. Sol of course is probably at least an Archangel. Our moon, many people think its more than just a sack of rocks.
 
Here a vid in GERMAN (I hope translation works) it shows also the symbols "Zepter" and "Reichsapfel" as well even the Prussian eagle were "Roman" symbols.. I have a feeling that these are (also) a Phallus and Ball symbol (or BAAL or BEL!). The cabal really like these sexual "innuendos" ...we have so many cities and a counties with BEL in Europe... Belgium was a Roman creation perhaps, too? And do not forget the horror and fantasy book named Bi-BEL (meaning 2 balls or baals lol). Btw. this guy also pushes the "reptilian" or "Formwandler" stuff, so I do not trust him ofc 100%.

Edit, I am sure you find the connection your self but guess also no coincidence the apple or Ba(a)l(?) and the tree (of life?) is also in the bi-bel. There is some truth in fiction for sure :) Also I guess the ppl who would become known the Romans still rule us today...this German guy DWD calls them "Canaanites"..


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuvGkibF0eY
 
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it shows also the symbols "Zepter" and "Reichsapfel" as well even the Prussian eagle were "Roman" symbols.. I have a feeling that these are (also) a Phallus and Ball symbol (or BAAL or BEL!). The cabal really like these sexual "innuendos" ...we have so many cities and a counties with BEL in Europe... Belgium was a Roman creation perhaps, too?
The so-called 'Romans' took all their symbols from the cultures they conquered, mainly from the Etruscans. Most things they attribute to Greeks and Romans are likely actually from the Etruscans, Celts and Huns, all previously Scythians. The 'god' BAL existed long before the Romans (referred to in many cultures including the Sumerians and Egyptians) and had nothing to do with evil. I'll try and find some references I have on that somewhere.

Also I guess the ppl who would become known the Romans still rule us today...this German guy DWD calls them "Canaanites"..
I remember also reading that in a few sources, that everyone is wrongly accusing the Phoenicians. Maybe tha Caananites became the Phoenicians and then the Venitians and eventually through Roman Catholicism, bearing the 'gift' of Judeo-Christianity, they installed what is now the current religious and legal system via major destruction of cultures, languages and alphabets, forcing Latin on all their subjects.

The cross had always been a holy symbol centuries if not millennia before being adopted by the Vatican.
 
The so-called 'Romans' took all their symbols from the cultures they conquered, mainly from the Etruscans. Most things they attribute to Greeks and Romans are likely actually from the Etruscans, Celts and Huns, all previously Scythians. The 'god' BAL existed long before the Romans (referred to in many cultures including the Sumerians and Egyptians) and had nothing to do with evil. I'll try and find some references I have on that somewhere.


I remember also reading that in a few sources, that everyone is wrongly accusing the Phoenicians. Maybe tha Caananites became the Phoenicians and then the Venitians and eventually through Roman Catholicism, bearing the 'gift' of Judeo-Christianity, they installed what is now the current religious and legal system via major destruction of cultures, languages and alphabets, forcing Latin on all their subjects.

The cross had always been a holy symbol centuries if not millennia before being adopted by the Vatican.
Yes you are right, we are discussing this BAAL/BEL here: Bible is all about Cyrus

I do not agree with the Celts and Huns...these people were conquered later and not completely... Etruscans iirc were also an Italian tribe (or was it Saamite?) this can be possible. The evil BAAL as demon is a Christian invention, most probably.
Yeah: "they installed what is now the current religious and legal system via major destruction of cultures, languages and alphabets" Converting the so called pagans.. yes.. with fire and sword oftentimes... but the Danish killed a lot of priests :) They also planted their churches and crosses upon older "pagan" sites. Such a place is near me... called the Druidenstein

img_7173-v1.jpg
Funny thing is many still believe Christianity is/was such a nice and good/just religion. Luckily it seems many in Europe at least do not care so much about it anymore....

Edit, I just found there is a 2nd Druidenstein, here with a castle:
▷ Wandern: Burgen – Druidenstein - 3:15 h - 10 km - Bergwelten
 
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Romans often share egypts story. Masons are obsessed with egypt and puramids, many of them does alchemy (menas egyptian teachings or something like that.). Do we know what alchemy really is and how do mason see Rome?
 
Fine for them, but not fine for those who want to control them and make a parasitic living out of managing large populations. But perhaps even those who were nomadic have chosen the non-nomadic lifestyle freely.

In general, we don't know what a 'natural' way of life is. Do we know that a nomadic way of life means that we would be ransacked, or is this just another story? Could a nomadic be peaceable? It is certainly a more independent way to live. Is being farmed (for around 40% of our work) in high density urban areas a better way to live?

I think I'm making the observation that we can see that nomadic people (gypsies, arabs, native Americans, native Australians, etc) do not do well if they try to keep their nomadic lifestyle - they are required to become static. This is not really a viable option in the modern world that requires addresses to a bank account, have a job, etc. That prevention or restriction of nomadism, is artificial.

Digital nomadism is perhaps the nearest comparable we have to a nomadic lifestyle - but it is a singular activity, not something 'your tribe' does.

Anyway, I think there is something to what I say - that history, science, religion, etc all areas of our life are the story/propaganda of the governance structure managing the humanity as a collective/herd. Or, in reverse, it is not the story of the individual living life on their own terms.

Yenish people - Wikipedia

Here is a wikipedia link to the Yenish people (who I'd never heard of until now), but whose trajectory is roughly similar to that which I laid out for tartarians (see the post of mine I quote above), at least according to wikipedia.
Many Yenish people in Germany became sedentary in the second half of the 19th century. The Kingdom of Prussia in 1842 introduced a law forcing municipalities to provide social welfare to permanent residents without citizenship. As a consequence, there were attempts to prevent Yenish people from taking permanent residence.[6] Recently established settlements of Yenish, Sinti, and Roma, dubbed "gypsy colonies" (Zigeunerkolonien), were discouraged and attempts were made to incite the settlers to move away, in the form of various forms of harassment, and in some cases physical attacks.[7] By the late 19th century, many recently sedentary Yenish were nevertheless integrated into local populations, gradually moving away from their tradition of endogamy thus being absorbed into the general German population. Those Yenish who did not become sedentary by the late 19th century took to living in trailers.
The persecution of Romani people under Nazi Germany beginning in 1933 was directed not exclusively against the Romani people but also targeted "vagrants who travel around after the manner of the gypsies" (nach Zigeunerart umherziehende Landfahrer), which included the Yenish and people without permanent residence in general.
From the 1920s until the 1970s, the Swiss government had a semi-official policy of institutionalizing Yenish parents and having their children adopted by members of the sedentary Swiss population. The name of this program was Kinder der Landstrasse ("Children of the Road"). What was ostensibly intended as a charitable effort to remove children from what was perceived as precarious conditions in a criminal milieu of homelessness and vagrancy was later criticized as a violation of the fundamental rights of the Yenishe to family life, with children separated from parents by force without due criminal procedure, and resulting in many of the children suffering an ordeal of successive foster homes and orphanages.
The Yenish people, it seems, were forced to settle. Perhaps this sort of idea - forcible settlement - was a problem to a growing government system. Alongside the development of the idea of 'owning land', raising taxes, etc, nomadic people are a problem as government rules cannot easily be applied.

This sort of idea, supports what I said above: "that history, science, religion, etc all areas of our life are the story/propaganda of the governance structure managing the humanity as a collective/herd."

I would argue that the focal point of our present existence, that differs from the past, is government - it is a beast that has grown and grown - so much so we can't easily conceive of the idea of a life without state governance. For me, this means that humanity has suffered a loss of freedom and morality. I would argue government is immoral as it is not voluntary but forced (assumed inclusion, forced stealing aka tax, forcing of behaviour, initiating action against others, etc).
 
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I would argue that the focal point of our present existence, that differs from the past, is government - it is a beast that has grown and grown - so much so we can't easily conceive of the idea of a life without state governance. For me, this means that humanity has suffered a loss of freedom and morality (government is immoral as it is not voluntary but forced (forced stealing, forcing of behaviour, initiating action against others, etc).


This is one of the core propositions of the document 'Atmospheric energy - a retrospective,' which is the subject of another thread. We can't even imagine what it would have been like to have freedom, to live in self-sustaining and self-governing communities.
 
This is one of the core propositions of the document 'Atmospheric energy - a retrospective,' which is the subject of another thread. We can't even imagine what it would have been like to have freedom, to live in self-sustaining and self-governing communities.

The Commons, common law....has devolved into narcissists clutching phōnēs.

Found 2 books browsing libgen.


The enclosure of the commons, space once available for communal use, was not a singular event but an act of "slow violence" that transformed lands, labor, and basic concepts of public life leading into the nineteenth century.

https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/ba... Commons-Stanford University Press (2021).pdf


Library Genesis: J. A. Yelling (auth.) - Common Field and Enclosure in England 1450–1850
 
The Commons, common law....has devolved into narcissists clutching phōnēs.

Found 2 books browsing libgen.


The enclosure of the commons, space once available for communal use, was not a singular event but an act of "slow violence" that transformed lands, labor, and basic concepts of public life leading into the nineteenth century.

Even as recently as the 1950s most food was locally produced.
 
Its possible Earth is actually the devil. Gaia cults could actually be in the service of satan? If the devil could regain power the best way is a nice safe of guns and lots of Gaia minions.

"Astrobiologists Suggest the Earth Itself May Be an Intelligent Entity

This is mind bending." Astrobiologists Suggest the Earth Itself May Be an Intelligent Entity


So, if Earth is intelligent then all of the planets in the solar system are at least somewhat sentient - pro or con or neutral man. Sol of course is probably at least an Archangel. Our moon, many people think its more than just a sack of rocks.
Yes, if we assume that intelligence needs memory, then many more forms of intelligence could exist than we think. And since the universe could very well exist for a very long time, it's not far-fetched to imagine that memory developed over those long periods, and that that memory became aware of itself, of its own thoughts, perhaps through a kind of language.Language seems necessary to me for conscious intelligence.

Every animal, plant, tree, bacterium, is intelligent, but (fortunately) not self-aware, I think. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if the Earth also possesses intelligence and is also busy protecting itself from people who go too far with atomic bombs and such.

The Earth will have learned that by now, even if it may not be aware of it. But I wouldn't be surprised if the Earth were conscious, along with many other celestial bodies.

The Bible also refers to the Earth as being owned by or in the hands of the devil. The mind can transcend matter (earth), and must, because the world belongs to the devil, they say. Our animal nature must be conquered.

So, intelligence seems to me to be equal to memory, plus the possibility of clever and rapid use of that memory. The faster the use of that memory, the more intelligent one is. And the more knowledge one has (memory, that is), the wiser one becomes.

Only morality remains. Well, only...
Humans know charity and sacrifice, for example. But there are also monsters of people.

They are 'wrongly' made; psychopaths and the like. But the mafia is such a monster too. And the earth laughs at this. Little fleas that make life difficult for each other, but, yes, liven things up, because everything changes, that's just the way it is. Evolution must happen with pain and effort, and without birth and death, nothing can grow and flourish.

So our wars are part of it? Arguments are good? Nature doesn't care, I think. Nature is. Perhaps God is? Because then God isn't so far-fetched either. There must be a beginning, and there must be a higher intelligence; that seems rather obvious to me.
 
From an interview with economic historian Michael Hudson about his book, "The Collapse of Antiquity: Greece and Rome as Civilization's Oligarchic Turning Point":

Considering the Collapse of Antiquity and the Bank Panic

MICHAEL HUDSON: Well, what happened in Greece and Rome is very much like what is happening today. And there’s a common denominator in all of the Western Financial systems, debts grow by compound interest.

That is, any rate of interest has a doubling time. [Debts] sweep up steadily, and the real economy grows much more slowly, so that debts mount up without the economy being able to pay them and there’s a crash.

Well, before you had Greece and Rome, you had 3,000 years of Near Eastern civilization realizing this.

And periodically, every new ruler that would come to the throne in the Near East for thousands of years would simply wipe the slate clean of personal debts and start all over, in balance. Because they realized that if you didn’t cancel the debts, then you would have your citizens fall into bondage and would have to work for their creditors and lose their land to foreclosing creditors. All the land would end up in the hands of just a few creditors who would usually overthrow the the government and try to take over.

Well, what made Greece and Rome and all subsequent societies, down to today’s United States, so different is they didn’t cancel the debts. They left the debts in place. And instead of having a ruler, or some central authority able to stop an oligarchy from developing and taking over and monopolizing all of the money and all the land, there wasn’t any central ruler.

This is usually called democracy. But democracies for the last 2500 years have not been very good at being able to check the rise in credit or interest. And that’s why Aristotle said that many constitutions of the Greek states claim to be democratic but they were really oligarchic.

And Aristotle said, — Under democracy, creditors begin to make loans and the debtors can’t pay and the creditors get more and more money, and they end up turning a democracy into an oligarchy, and then the oligarchy makes itself hereditary, and you have an aristocracy.

And unless members of the aristocracy say, — Wait a minute, we’re bankrupting society, we’re reducing the whole society to poverty. Nobody’s going to fight for us anymore because they’re all in bondage.

Unless you have some member of the upper class or some family taking over, like Cleisthenes did in Athens in 506 BC, then you’re going to have what happened in Rome — a Dark Age.

And a Dark Age is when the creditors take over and reduce all the rest of the economy to bondage. Or today you call it “austerity” or “debt deflation”.
Rereading what I wrote two years ago, I now see another dimension to this.

Michael Hudson is not a chronological revisionist. At the time I wrote this, I was still open to the idea that our accepted chronology might be more or less correct, but that the events that occurred in history might have been radically different. My position has since hardened. I now start from the idea that everything before roughly 1400 is probably a reflection of something that occurred later. There is simply no way our history is much older than this.

This would seem to invalidate Hudson's point, but on the contrary I believe it strengthens it. Andrey Pustogarov introduced an idea that struck me as quite insightful. He claims that all the Middle Eastern empires that were "discovered" in the 19th century by British and German archaeologists (Babylonians, Sumerians, etc.) were fabricated by those nations to establish a pedigree for themselves that would predate the Bible. The "ancient Aryans" were invented by the Germans to justify the creation of their imaginary Aryan present. In other words, they knew that Biblical chronology was fake, and they responded by doing an end-run around it.

Now, what is interesting here is that it was precisely in the mid-19th century that alternatives to the destructive debt system historically practiced by both the Jews and the Catholic Church began to emerge, for example Henry Carey's "American System". Such systems, broadly construed, were based on governments channeling investment debt-free to industry (rather that allowing industry to be financed by loans from private banks, which came with interest). That is an oversimplification, of course. The ultra-rapid industrialization of Germany in the late 19th century was due to their implementation of such a system. These systems work and they are kryptonite to the central banking cartel.

Michael Hudson claims that the "ancient" Middle Eastern civilizations practiced debt forgiveness (i.e., a primitive form of the "American System"). It suddenly occurs to me that perhaps the German and British archaeologists who "discovered" the clay tablets Hudson bases his research on actually forged them in an attempt to project their new economic ideas back into the deep past so as to justify implementing them in the present.

Hudson claims that Greece and Rome were the first civilizations to abandon debt forgiveness. In Hudson's eyes this is the "original sin" of modern economies (I can only agree). The truth is even more depressing. Greece and Rome were the first civilizations, period, or close to the first, and they existed in the 15th-17th centuries. There never were any pre-Roman civilizations practicing debt forgiveness -- debt has ALWAYS existed as the rotten foundation of empire. The good news is that there really are alternatives. The bad news is that they have always been snuffed out immediately as soon as anyone tried them out. Here I actually find myself sympathetic to the 19th century German fabricators of Babylonian history. They were trying to create the conditions in popular consciousness for the acceptance of a new economic system that was far superior to the old one, but which risked being rejected as purely theoretical. If the economic historians could show that it had worked for "3000 years", however, it would be much easier for them to "sell" it to their governments and citizens.

Maybe the English "tally stick" system I brought up upthread was not derived from ancient near eastern accounting systems, but the model upon which these fictional systems were based.

I have long believed that Hitler was allowed to practice something like the American System in Nazi Germany precisely in order that it might once and for all be demonized.
 
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