SH Archive Tamerlane a.k.a. Timur: what was his ethnicity?

[KD Archive]

Timur, historically known as Amir Timur and Tamerlane, was a Turco-Mongol conqueror. As the founder of the Timurid Empire in Persia and Central Asia, he became the first ruler in the Timurid dynasty. According to John Joseph Saunders, Timur was "the product of an islamized and iranized society", and not steppe nomadic.

Born into the Barlas confederation in Transoxiana (in modern-day Uzbekistan) on 9 April 1336, Timur gained control of the western Chagatai Khanate by 1370. From that base, he led military campaigns across Western, South and Central Asia, the Caucasus and southern Russia, and emerged as the most powerful ruler in the Muslim world after defeating the Mamluks of Egypt and Syria, the emerging Ottoman Empire, and the declining Delhi Sultanate. From these conquests, he founded the Timurid Empire, but this empire fragmented shortly after his death.

Tamerlane

9 April 1336 – 18 February 1405​

Timur was the last of the great nomadic conquerors of the Eurasian Steppe, and his empire set the stage for the rise of the more structured and lasting Gunpowder Empires in the 16th and 17th centuries. Timur envisioned the restoration of the Mongol Empire of Genghis Khan (died 1227) and according to Gérard Chaliand, saw himself as Genghis Khan's heir. Though not a Borjigid or a descendent of Genghis Khan, he clearly sought to invoke the legacy of the latter's conquests during his lifetime. According to Beatrice Forbes Manz, "in his formal correspondence Temur continued throughout his life to portray himself as the restorer of Chinggisid rights. He justified his Iranian, Mamluk, and Ottoman campaigns as a re-imposition of legitimate Mongol control over lands taken by usurpers." To legitimize his conquests, Timur relied on Islamic symbols and language, referred to himself as the "Sword of Islam", and patronized educational and religious institutions. He converted nearly all the Borjigin leaders to Islam during his lifetime. Timur decisively defeated the Christian Knights Hospitaller at the Siege of Smyrna, styling himself a ghazi. By the end of his reign, Timur had gained complete control over all the remnants of the Chagatai Khanate, the Ilkhanate, and the Golden Horde, and even attempted to restore the Yuan dynasty in China.

• Timur's armies were inclusively multi-ethnic and were feared throughout Asia, Africa, and Europe, sizable parts of which his campaigns laid to waste. Scholars estimate that his military campaigns caused the deaths of 17 million people, amounting to about 5% of the world population at the time.
• Timur - Wikipedia

Gur-e-Amir​

The Gūr-i Amīr is a mausoleum of the Asian conqueror Tamerlane in Samarkand, Uzbekistan. It occupies an important place in the history of Persian-Mongolian Architecture as the precursor and model for later great Mughal architecture tombs, including Gardens of Babur in Kabul, Humayun's Tomb in Delhi and the Taj Mahal in Agra, built by Timur's Persianised descendants, the ruling Mughal dynasty of Indian Subcontinent. It has been heavily restored.

Groundbreaking: 1403 - Completed: 1404
​

KD: Well, above is a short official synopsis (a compliant one) of Tamerlane's life. It provided us with the basics, including his appearance. It almost does not mention anything pertaining to Tamerlane's involvement with Tartary. Just a hint there was on Wiki:

• Timur is the deposed, blind former King of Tartary and father of the protagonist Calaf in the opera Turandot (1924) by Giacomo Puccini, libretto by Giuseppe Adami and Renato Simoni.

Interesting Rumors​

Below is a list of google translated articles, suggesting that there could have been a few mysterious circumstances surrounding Tamerlane's 1941 exhumation.

• Believes in the curse of "Hromts"
• The legend of the curse of Tamerlane: history, facts, myths
• Tamerlane's grave
• How to open the tomb of Tamerlane

Anyways, take the above for what it's worth, I just found it to be an interesting addition to the entire Timur Saga.

Tamerlanes Tartarorum Imper
...or, what do we really know?
​

We will talk about Tamerlane appearance a bit later. For right now, what is up with this M (or W) hand sign?

On the right we have "Christ Carrying the Cross", on the left we have "The Gentleman with His Hand at His Breast ", both, allegedly done by El Greco (1541-1614). In the middle we have animage titled "Tamerlanes Tartarorum Imper Potentiss". It was allegedly, published by Adam Islip (1596-1627) in 1603. The book was called "The Generall Historie of the Turkes", and was written by Richard Knolles (1545-1610). I was unable to find the name of the actual image artist.

The Hand Sign: If you know what meaning, or meanings this sign could have, please share with the rest. My mini web-search came back with anything ranging from "Love and Peace" to some Maria Magdalena connections. So... I have no idea what the meaning is, but the sign is clearly there. I'm pretty sure additional digging would produce tons of famous people enjoying pressing two fingers together.

Timur's Appearance​

The very first image in this thread shows Tamerlane based on the post-exhumation skull reconstruction (assuming it was him in the sarcophagus). At least we are told that reconstruction produced the above features. After all, how could Timur have any other appearance?

• Fomenko says: Tamerlane had a European looking face

What did he look like?​

Portrait of Tamerlane, half-length in an oval, bearded, wearing coat and belt, and with one hand on falcon-headed hilt of sword; illustration to the first edition of Richard Knolles' "The Generall Historie of the Turkes" (London, Adam Islip: 1603).

​

The horse rider above is a painting done by Rembrandt (allegedly, of course...). It is titled, "The Polish Rider". But... here is the description:

• The romantic and enigmatic character of this picture has inspired many theories about its subject, meaning, history, and even its attribution to Rembrandt.
  • Several portrait identifications have been proposed, including an ancestor of the Polish Oginski family, which owned the painting in the eighteenth century, and the Polish Socinian theologian Jonasz Szlichtyng. The rider’s costume, his weapons, and the breed of his horse have also been claimed as Polish. But if The Polish Rider is a portrait, it certainly breaks with tradition. Equestrian portraits are not common in seventeenth-century Dutch art, and furthermore, in the traditional equestrian portrait the rider is fashionably dressed and his mount is spirited and well-bred.
  • The painting may instead portray a character from history or literature, and many possibilities have been proposed. Candidates range from the Prodigal Son to Gysbrech van Amstel, a hero of Dutch medieval history, and from the Old Testament David to the Mongolian warrior Tamerlane.

None of the above images of Tamerlane are here?: Terrifying Timur | All About History

So, which one was he?
Mongolian ??? or European ???

And when was he?​

In Turkey, they apparently do not know when the Great Timur was born, and they definitely have a very weird idea of when he died. Doesn't look too Mongolian either.

Same Hat Maker?​

Little coincidences like this do not really help out with the research. In the middle is Vasili the Third of Russia. He lived between 1479-1533. Compare it to 1336-1405 for Tamerlane. Were these guys shopping at the same medieval "NIKE" store, but 100 years apart? Or could these lines mean something else? Not gonna go into speculations of these two being the same person. Some additional digging could probably produce a whole bunch of guys wearing hats with this three-six liner.

​

Below is the original full image of Vasili III of Russia? How Russian are those ornaments around the image?

Play: Timour the Tartar​

For those who like the musical side of things, this could be an interesting investigation of sorts. Back in 1811, an English novelist and dramatist Matthew Gregory Lewis, wrote quite a few plays, novels and other things. Guess which one is not listed on Wikipedia? Yup...

• "Timour the Tartar" was omitted by Wikipedia. Coincidence again?

Source​

KD Note. Here is a sad fun fact. Wikipedia tells us the following:

• Scholars estimate that his military campaigns caused the deaths of 17 million people, amounting to about 5% of the world population at the time.

The full name of the play was:

• Timour the Tartar: A Grand Romantic Melo Drama.

How come the below play was never written:

• Hitler the Nazi: A Grand Romantic Melo Drama.

Why do we have this monster-human Tamerlane portrayed in a romantic, and generally positive light?

Source​

The above story line belongs to John Malcolm (1769-1833) a Scottish soldier, diplomat, East India Company administrator, statesman, and historian. And here is what a monument to this Mr. Malcolm looks like.

• The Malcolm Monument is a tall obelisk which took less than a year to build during 1835-1836. It was erected in honour of Major General Sir John Malcolm, a Scottish soldier and diplomat, for his service to the country. The monument is a very prominent landmark on Whita Hill, Langholm, UK.

​

What did people in the beginning of the 19th century know about Timour the Tartar, that we do not now today? Anyways, for those who want to dig in and see if there is anything unusual in this "Melo Drama", above is your starting point.

Scythian Connection
Whose Emperor?​

Let us be real here. When we talk about Scythians, we are talking about times close to 2,000 years ago. Archaeologists can distinguish three periods of ancient Scythian archaeological remains:

• 1st period – pre-Scythian and initial Scythian epoch: from the 9th to the middle of the 7th century BC
• 2nd period – early Scythian epoch: from the 7th to the 6th centuries BC
• 3rd period – classical Scythian epoch: from the 5th to the 4th centuries BC

From the 8th to the 2nd centuries BC, archaeology records a split into two distinct settlement areas: the older in the Sayan-Altai area in Central Asia, and the younger in the North Pontic area in Eastern Europe. An alternative scheme, relating to the "narrow" definition at the Western end of the steppe and into Europe, has:

• Early Scythian – from the mid-8th or the late 7th century BC to about 500 BC
• Classical Scythian or Mid-Scythian – from about 500 BC to about 300 BC
• Late Scythian – from about 200 BC to the early 2nd century CE, in the Crimea and the Lower Dnieper, by which time the population was settled.

​

We see Scythians being mentioned all over our Medieval maps, and literature. Yet, by then, no Scythians existed for at least 1,200 years. We do not see on our contemporary maps of Northern England anything saying "Former land of the Picts".

KD: In other words, how could Timour the Tartar (whose life story was so well known by John Malcolm, who in turn had an Egyptian obelisk for a monument) be the Emperor of Scythians in 15th century AD, if Scythians seized to exist in 2nd century AD. Which is approximately 1,200 - 1,300 years prior.

Scythians + Hats​

And when we talk about Scythians, we cannot overlook their headgear. Yep, talking about Scythian hats here, which are also Phrygian, or Liberty caps.

• Other Greek earthenware of antiquity also depict Amazons and so-called "Scythian" archers with Phrygian caps. Although these are military depictions, the headgear is distinguished from "Phrygian helmets" by long ear flaps, and the figures are also identified as "barbarians" by their trousers.

Scythian Warriors

And this hat/cap issue takes us into a totally unregulated chronological spin, for these hats exist all over the time table.

The Three Wisemen

Norumbega: Washington Monument and the Roman Empire

And this...

​

KD: Them non-existent Scythians appear to have found a way to be present in 2019 as well.

Well, I am not sure what exactly we can get out of all of this. If you know the ethnicity of Mr. Timour the Tartar, please share with us. Personally I am not sure any more. Additionally, it does appear (again, and again) that time frames were maliciously adjusted beyond recognition.

Finally
What is this thing?

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[Archive]

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Username: jd755
Date: 2019-02-17 10:39:38
Reaction Score: 2

A fictional character?
They may possibly have been, like Greene's, acted at some time by Lord Strange's men. That is all we know as to these authors. Marlow's Tamberlane, Massacre of Paris, and Jew of Malta, were all acted by
Lord Strange's company in 1592-3 ;
Edward II. by the Earl of Pembroke's in 1593;
and Tamberlane, The Jew of Malta, and Faustus, by the Admirals,
or the Lord Chamberlain's, or both together, in 1594.

I may mention here that Mr. Halliwell has proved that Lord Strange's company were in 1594 incorporated with the Lord Chamberlain's.

https://archive.org/stream/macmillansmagazi33macmuoft/macmillansmagazi33macmuoft_djvu.txt

Theatre sounds very like the make it up media of today. Possibly the events may have been real or at least some of them or the name was real and the events were not, but the control of the theatre by Lords, not least the Lord Chamberlain is very suspicious.

Certainly the chap who wrote this book when in Persia makes mention of Tamberlane but only in vague terms of he destroyed this he built that or he left what he felt was sacred. Have only read a few pages of the Persian section yet but it feels like he was parroting and not quoting from Muscovite or Persian sources.
It is worth mentioning he knows of Scaligers 'work' as he mentioned his name in an 'on the spot' test of Scaligers round earth theory using an optic on the Caspian sea which he found sound.
Not sure if this adds or detracts to this topic.

I am getting the feeling most of the hero's of the past are anything but and probably never existed in a bodily form.

 

[Archive]

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Username: GroundhogLfe
Date: 2019-02-17 11:23:00
Reaction Score: 1

I got one vision regarding Tamerlane. Not sure if proper to share it here as it is not based on actual sources, just consciousness and intuition blooming in my mind. I've not read his biographies or history views in full at least to my memory, but know the character and what he has done in general.

What I saw years ago was that he was on a conquest of a city and demanded that no one touches even the dead bodies lying beside a tower, that they were to be burned. This type of action would be an imperative and when he had some of his own troops touch the bodies by their hands he would demand them to be killed and burned as well. He was superstitious as he believed "evil" can spread like that and this is why he was so thorough. I felt he was absolutely driven to eradicate all evil from the world. He was fighting a war to eradicate all wars type of war in the name of good causing him to himself to some atrocious deeds. But he was no evil man, just driven with his idealism of a good and peaceful world. The story about him taking heed from the ant to his resiliency fits perfectly to what I felt and gained from this vision of him.

If anyone reads his histories or knows of such things to have happened I'd like to know. He's still on my "to do" list. But from this vision I gained some admiration towards him even with all his horrible deeds, the task was always to make the world a better place. Maybe it's a story I've heard as a child and it just manifested later as a vivid dream type of thing to my mind, I cannot say for sure.

When I get to read about him and if I gain some actual insights on written history and it's possible contradictions of him I'll get back to this. I'll be following this topic with interest.

 

[Archive]

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Username: ISeenItFirst
Date: 2019-02-17 13:18:29
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One of the stories from tartary had a deposed blind king, don't recall the name or place, but it was the main character from the main story which all the other stories sprang from.

Also, the lines on the hat look like hat pins of some sort. For tightening the fitment and possible securing the hat to the hair, like modern women's hat pins. Just a thought.

 

[Archive]

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Username: Ice Nine
Date: 2019-02-17 14:00:07
Reaction Score: 6

Much like historians, I have no idea who Tamerlane was, leader of the Scythians, seems like a safe bet for now.

Some info, such as it is about the hand sign. "El caballero de la mano al pecho" -- "The man with his hand on his chest.

the "logo" on the hats sure do remind me of a seven branch menorah. It's a bit stylized, but it was the first thing I thought of.

Exodus 25:31-37: "You shall make a lampstand of pure gold. The lampstand shall be made of hammered work: its base, its stem, its cups, its calyxes, and its flowers shall be of one piece with it. And there shall be six branches going out of its sides, three branches of the lampstand out of one side of it and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side of it"

 

[Archive]

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Username: ScottFreeman
Date: 2019-02-17 18:35:35
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What I saw years ago was that he was on a conquest of a city and demanded that no one touches even the dead bodies lying beside a tower, that they were to be burned. This type of action would be an imperative and when he had some of his own troops touch the bodies by their hands he would demand them to be killed and burned as well. He was superstitious as he believed "evil" can spread like that and this is why he was so thorough. I felt he was absolutely driven to eradicate all evil from the world. He was fighting a war to eradicate all wars type of war in the name of good causing him to himself to some atrocious deeds. But he was no evil man, just driven with his idealism of a good and peaceful world. The story about him taking heed from the ant to his resiliency fits perfectly to what I felt and gained from this vision of him.

I get the impression that he knew of infectious diseases and airborne contagion. Was he using them or just cleaning up after?

Now, whenever I read of one of these agents-of-change, I wonder whose side they were on. Were the nations/republics/peoples that were conquered bad or did they just belong to the 'old' world order? By the same token, when we get reports of a conqueror who was 'evil', was he defending against or attacking the NWO? Considering our current ruling classes and history I almost feel compelled to invert what I hear as news to get something more akin to truth.

 

[Archive]

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Username: Apollyon
Date: 2019-02-17 18:45:11
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you know me, always gotta bring his stuff as close to the 20th century as possible.
In regards to the scythian hoods check out the Bashlyk they were issued in and became a symbol of the Kolcheck white army.
and these native american hoods are just a coincidence i'm sure

notice the chest piece.
caucasus
native

 

[KD Archive]

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Username: KorbenDallas
Date: 2019-02-17 18:45:21
Reaction Score: 0

Also, the lines on the hat look like hat pins of some sort. For tightening the fitment and possible securing the hat to the hair, like modern women's hat pins. Just a thought.

Could be I suppose. Would be interesting to find an actual hat like this somewhere in a museum, or elsewehere.

Exodus 25:31-37: "You shall make a lampstand of pure gold. The lampstand shall be made of hammered work: its base, its stem, its cups, its calyxes, and its flowers shall be of one piece with it. And there shall be six branches going out of its sides, three branches of the lampstand out of one side of it and three branches of the lampstand out of the other side of it"

That is a very interesting comparison indeed.

 

[Archive]

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Username: jd755
Date: 2019-02-17 20:29:26
Reaction Score: 1

Go through this by putting 'thousand' in the web browser search box. My god they could move huge quantities of men, horses, carts, baggage about very quickly in them days.
Logistics do not appear to be a problem, or the entire story is just that, a story. Came across same pattern in the Charles XII of Sweden book. Bulling the 'big players' up into super heroes of the day who could turn their hands to just about anything whilst killing thousands upon thousands yet always more 'troops' appear in time for the next showdown.
With that said the hats, there is a line. i'm sure they put an appearance in the French Revolution, but not to derail so will leave that line of inquiry there.

Something else that makes no sense in regards to the exploits of Tamerlane. According to all the books, least the ones i have read, horses have been used in warfare right up until 1914. That is one enormous amount of time and yet starting in 1914 airplanes went from string bags and wood to jets by 1945. Bugger, it looks like I am de-railing again so I'll shut up.

 

[_harris]

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Username: 0harris0
Date: 2019-02-24 12:19:53
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Some info, such as it is about the hand sign. "El caballero de la mano al pecho" -- "The man with his hand on his chest.

Oh man thought that article was getting onto something then massively tails off topic!!

the only thing I know about that hand gesture is it's recent use to display East/West side in gangs

Been looking into hand signs/gestures a lot recently since I saw my friends Buddhist handbook (no pun intended)... lots of different gestures just in Buddhism displaying different attributes (see their statues!).. lots of secrets being silently, subliminally passed between those "enlightened" to the matter!

 

[HELLBOY]

The Catalan Atlas or Mapamundi de los Cresques is a 14th century book containing several manuscript maps covering the entire world known to Europeans at the time.
It is neither signed nor dated, although the approximate date of production is known to be 1375 from the record in the calendar included.
This map has flags for each zone, after Russia is the flag of the Golden Horde, then the Timurid Flag that we can see in Persia and near Georgia and I will show the other flags. Catalan Atlas - Wikipedia

In the Gog and Magog area we have a banner very similar to the flag designated for Tartary, what do you think?

A flag with three crescent moons that seems to occupy part of Siberia as far as Thailand.

Lions in red perhaps from the Safavid empire?
Gold and white flag of Chagatai Khanate

Timurid Flag - King of Tauris
A rare flag in Deli - King of Deli
South India a Colobo King, Columbo City, already mentioned in another occasion. Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany

Poland with the Anchor Flag

Byzantine Empire
A Firadelfia Kingdom, red cross and blue stripes.
A flag similar to that of Israel
A flag with Bicephalous Eagle on red background near Turkey.

Curious facts:

The Timurid flag can be seen in Turkey.

Babylon in Egypt and its King, further south Christian kingdoms can be seen in Ethiopia perhaps.

Tower of Babel at Persepolis or nearby, a city called Caldech (Chaldea?).
Babylon is listed above but I can't understand the text.

The Magi near Tarshish and Deli come from the banners of the Chagatai Khanate.

Pygmies fighting with birds
Gog and Magog and below a King Alexander in front of a demon and then right there he is being feted, below is Catayo and Cambalu City, too bad I can't spell the king's name.

​

As for the symbol that Timur wears, does India ring a bell? Shiva? Have you heard about the Mongolian spot?

All Mongolian babies are born with a blue birthmark on their backs and it is known as the Mongolian spot all over the world. Mongolians have worshipped the eternal blue sky since ancient times and considered this birthmark as a heavenly seal only for Mongolians.
The spot usually fades three to five years after birth and disappears at puberty. The common color is blue, but it can sometimes be found as bluish gray, bluish black or deep brown. In fact, pigmented birthmarks are associated with health risks, but Mongolian blue spots are not.
This birthmark is common not only among Mongolians, but also among the peoples of East, South, Southeast, South, North and Central Asia, the indigenous people of Oceania (mainly Micronesians and Polynesians), certain populations of Africa, Amerindians, non-European Latin Americans, mixed-race descendants of the Caribbean, and Turks.
While the blue spot is found in almost 95% of Mongolians, in other Asians, especially Koreans, Japanese and Chinese, blue spots are observed in about 50-80% of their population.
According to a study conducted in several hospitals in Mexico City, 51.8% of Mexican newborns have the Mongolian spot on average.
The blue spot also appears in 5-10% of Caucasian descendants. Among Europeans, it is almost absent, accounting for only 1-10% of the population. But the interesting data is that of Hungarians, who account for 22.6% of the population.
Some cultures believe that the blue spot comes from the divine place where the baby was pricked or slapped by a spirit to come out of the "pre-life" and be born, while others say it is a sign of royalty.
The Mongols, since ancient times, believed that they were patronized by heavenly powers. That is why on the seal of the Great Khan of the Mongol Empire was the inscription "By the will of the eternal heaven". And the Mongols understood the birth of children with a blue spot as the patronage of the heavens over their descendants.
The mark is also common among the Maya of the Yucatan peninsula, where it is called Wa in Mayan, meaning "circle of heaven".
The Uyghurs name the blue spot as the mark of Tengri, the sky deity who also blesses the newborn. Many other Turkic peoples believe that the Tengri or Umai-ene deities help the child take its first breath by patting its buttocks with their own hands. This role is played by the goddess Aiyysyt among the Siberian Yakuts.
Why is the Mongolian spot widespread among the indigenous people of North and South America?
According to the latest research, the first wave of settlers arrived on the American continent from Siberia and Central Asia through the Bering Strait no earlier than 23,000 years ago, at the height of the last Ice Age. This may explain the presence of the Mongolian stain in most Native American babies.

 

[Deleted member 37]

I appreciate your effort to talk about history on this forum @HELLBOY, despite it being almost entirely devoted to cancel culture, philosophy, shapes of the earth, psychology, medicine, alternative science, 2nd rate conspiracy theories and so on... It is inspiring to see your devotion to what we like, even if we are few.
Let me know, even in private form, if you ever come across some forum talking about historical recentism please.

 

[ViniB]

We barelly know what the world was like some 250yrs ago, let alone over 500! I get your passion for mainstream his-story but here's an honest question: do these so called academics have a minimal idea of what 23000yrs is?? Like, that's a freaking insane amount of (made up) years!!!!! And all the "proof" is dubious dating methods, mathemagical models that may have nothing to do with reality and huge leaps of faith by trust me bro i'm an expert.......

The Catalan Atlas or Mapamundi de los Cresques is a 14th century book containing several manuscript maps covering the entire world known to Europeans at the time.
It is neither signed nor dated, although the approximate date of production is known to be 1375 from the record in the calendar included.
This map has flags for each zone, after Russia is the flag of the Golden Horde, then the Timurid Flag that we can see in Persia and near Georgia and I will show the other flags. Catalan Atlas - Wikipedia

View attachment 26755​

View attachment 26763​

View attachment 26764​

In the Gog and Magog area we have a banner very similar to the flag designated for Tartary, what do you think?

View attachment 26765

View attachment 26756​

A flag with three crescent moons that seems to occupy part of Siberia as far as Thailand.

View attachment 26757​

Lions in red perhaps from the Safavid empire?
Gold and white flag of Chagatai Khanate

View attachment 26766View attachment 26767

Timurid Flag - King of Tauris
A rare flag in Deli - King of Deli
South India a Colobo King, Columbo City, already mentioned in another occasion. Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany

View attachment 26758​

Poland with the Anchor Flag

View attachment 26759​

Byzantine Empire
A Firadelfia Kingdom, red cross and blue stripes.
A flag similar to that of Israel
A flag with Bicephalous Eagle on red background near Turkey.

View attachment 26760​

View attachment 26768​

View attachment 26761​

View attachment 26762​

Curious facts:

The Timurid flag can be seen in Turkey.

View attachment 26769​

Babylon in Egypt and its King, further south Christian kingdoms can be seen in Ethiopia perhaps.

View attachment 26771​

Tower of Babel at Persepolis or nearby, a city called Caldech (Chaldea?).
Babylon is listed above but I can't understand the text.

View attachment 26772​

The Magi near Tarshish and Deli come from the banners of the Chagatai Khanate.

View attachment 26773​

Pygmies fighting with birds
Gog and Magog and below a King Alexander in front of a demon and then right there he is being feted, below is Catayo and Cambalu City, too bad I can't spell the king's name.

View attachment 26774​

View attachment 26775​

​

As for the symbol that Timur wears, does India ring a bell? Shiva? Have you heard about the Mongolian spot?

View attachment 26776​

View attachment 26777​

View attachment 26778​

View attachment 26779​

All Mongolian babies are born with a blue birthmark on their backs and it is known as the Mongolian spot all over the world. Mongolians have worshipped the eternal blue sky since ancient times and considered this birthmark as a heavenly seal only for Mongolians.
The spot usually fades three to five years after birth and disappears at puberty. The common color is blue, but it can sometimes be found as bluish gray, bluish black or deep brown. In fact, pigmented birthmarks are associated with health risks, but Mongolian blue spots are not.
This birthmark is common not only among Mongolians, but also among the peoples of East, South, Southeast, South, North and Central Asia, the indigenous people of Oceania (mainly Micronesians and Polynesians), certain populations of Africa, Amerindians, non-European Latin Americans, mixed-race descendants of the Caribbean, and Turks.
While the blue spot is found in almost 95% of Mongolians, in other Asians, especially Koreans, Japanese and Chinese, blue spots are observed in about 50-80% of their population.
According to a study conducted in several hospitals in Mexico City, 51.8% of Mexican newborns have the Mongolian spot on average.
The blue spot also appears in 5-10% of Caucasian descendants. Among Europeans, it is almost absent, accounting for only 1-10% of the population. But the interesting data is that of Hungarians, who account for 22.6% of the population.
Some cultures believe that the blue spot comes from the divine place where the baby was pricked or slapped by a spirit to come out of the "pre-life" and be born, while others say it is a sign of royalty.
The Mongols, since ancient times, believed that they were patronized by heavenly powers. That is why on the seal of the Great Khan of the Mongol Empire was the inscription "By the will of the eternal heaven". And the Mongols understood the birth of children with a blue spot as the patronage of the heavens over their descendants.
The mark is also common among the Maya of the Yucatan peninsula, where it is called Wa in Mayan, meaning "circle of heaven".
The Uyghurs name the blue spot as the mark of Tengri, the sky deity who also blesses the newborn. Many other Turkic peoples believe that the Tengri or Umai-ene deities help the child take its first breath by patting its buttocks with their own hands. This role is played by the goddess Aiyysyt among the Siberian Yakuts.
Why is the Mongolian spot widespread among the indigenous people of North and South America?
According to the latest research, the first wave of settlers arrived on the American continent from Siberia and Central Asia through the Bering Strait no earlier than 23,000 years ago, at the height of the last Ice Age. This may explain the presence of the Mongolian stain in most Native American babies.

 

[Jd755]

We barelly know what the world was like some 250yrs ago, let alone over 500! I get your passion for mainstream his-story but here's an honest question: do these so called academics have a minimal idea of what 23000yrs is?? Like, that's a freaking insane amount of (made up) years!!!!! And all the "proof" is dubious dating methods, mathemagical models that may have nothing to do with reality and huge leaps of faith by trust me bro i'm an expert.......

Very well said.

 

[ViniB]

Very well said.

Thanks, it's kinda crazy to me that some members will go as far as defending something with little to zero evidence just because somente in academia say it's true, while 100% ignoring fallacies in said theories and their explanation!

To me is like, if a source for a theory is dubious or built upon agreed assumptions, the theory itself is baseless

 

[Jd755]

Thanks, it's kinda crazy to me that some members will go as far as defending something with little to zero evidence just because somente in academia say it's true, while 100% ignoring fallacies in said theories and their explanation!

To me is like, if a source for a theory is dubious or built upon agreed assumptions, the theory itself is baseless

Same here. Clinging to an idea or theory without putting it t scrutiny of testing to at least odd if not bizarre.

 

[Deleted member 37]

In any case this is a western Italian representation of Tamerlane (https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/192693). Not exactly 'mongol', by today's standards, not him nor his soldiers:

The Ottoman Empire: Old World Memories and Remnants of a Golden Age
The Ottoman Empire: Old World Memories and Remnants of a Golden Age

edit: I've now seen tons of art from the middle ages and renaissance and it's impossible not to notice the widespread blondism of those representations. Is it the discolouring of paintings... apparently only for hair and beards? Were those painters all raceeests and not incluseeeeve enough? Were they applying 'their colours' to everybody, even distant people in space and supposedly in time?

In this last case we should imagine some very blonde Italians... sssshhhh don't say it too loud, someone might take offense.

 

[trismegistus]

edit: I've now seen tons of art from the middle ages and renaissance and it's impossible not to notice the widespread blondism of those representations. Is it the discolouring of paintings... apparently only for hair and beards? Were those painters all raceeests and not incluseeeeve enough? Were they applying 'their colours' to everybody, even distant people in space and supposedly in time?

The next question is: how many times and by whom has the painting been restored? Most of these typically are not in fully original form. Opportunity to change things like hair and skin color can easily be done before public scrutiny, especially tucked away in the elite’s manors.

 

[Deleted member 37]

The next question is: how many times and by whom has the painting been restored? Most of these typically are not in fully original form. Opportunity to change things like hair and skin color can easily be done before public scrutiny, especially tucked away in the elite’s manors.

Well there have been cases in the past where some previous paintings were hidden behind a new one, but I've never heard of beards and hair recoloured. Maybe it's something to verify even if there's many clues that it was the original inteded appearance of those characters, simply due to the presence of other few characters with different complexions and hair colours, from swarthy to black.

But it's not only that. If we look at this painting above there's no trace of the typical oriental eyes' shape either.
If we consider Italian art it is easy to see how blondism is always (or at least in most cases) accompanied by a different, more ancient style of representaion, and also different more rigid figures doing particular gestures and wearing clothes fashioned in a certain peculiar style and full of what seem to be writings (and commonly considered to be damask fabric).
Suddenly, in between the supposed 15th-16th centuries, that fashion and those gestures and composure slowly but surely vanish to leave space to brown headed people who act less rigidly (but at the same time, let's say, in a more pompous way) and wearing clothes without any kind of damask pattern.

some example without the presumption to be specific:

BEFORE

MIDDLE

AFTER