SH Archive More misrepresented dating.

[Jd755]

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Username: jd755
Date: 2020-03-01 10:35:54
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This suggests that it was used to terminate the inscription and prevent any unauthorised additions - like when writing a cheque... if anyone remembers what they were.

Now that makes sense. Thankyou. And yes crossing cheques is remembered here.

 

[Archive]

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Username: FlyChaos
Date: 2020-03-01 10:53:02
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If I understand your shorthand correctly, you are claiming that the word 'igual' in Spanish means "passed" or "continuous". This is not the case, please see here. The word 'igual' has the same meaning as the English 'equal'. 'Passed' is 'pasado' and 'continuous' is 'continuo'. To add this concept to the sentence would require its complete reconstruction.

In Spanish = is a purely mathematical symbol, not a punctuation mark. Its use at the end of the inscription has no sense either as a word or as a mathematical symbol. This suggests that it was used to terminate the inscription and prevent any unauthorised additions - like when writing a cheque... if anyone remembers what they were.

ok idk spanish
igual translation English | Spanish dictionary | Reverso
(=constante) steady, constant
"passed" /"continuous" my attempt english translation ,"from jesus 526 years constant "

 

[Jd755]

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Username: jd755
Date: 2020-03-01 10:58:02
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(=constante) steady, constant
"passed" my attempt english translation ,"from jesus 526 years constant "

Bugger. That makes sense too!

 

[Felix Noille]

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Username: Felixnoille
Date: 2020-03-01 12:03:12
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You're absolutely correct - udk Spanish.

hace unos ANOS IGUAL habrías querido semejante regalo

A few years ago
[hace unos años]
igual habrias querido semejante regalo
[equally you would have wanted a similar present]

El tipo murió hace nueve ANOS IGUAL que casi todos los implicados en el caso

El tipo murió hace nueve años
[The guy died nine years ago]
igual que casi todos los implicados en el caso
[the same as almost all those implicated in the case]

Bugger. That makes sense too!

Not really, because aren't all years constant and steady or are there some unequal ones? Anyway, does it really matter, does it affect anything?

 

[Archive]

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Username: FlyChaos
Date: 2020-03-01 12:16:31
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You're absolutely correct - udk Spanish.

ok post retracted as noncense , but "constant" meaning "continuous" ?

Anyway, does it really matter, does it affect anything?

meaning of 'j'

 

[wild heretic]

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Username: wild heretic
Date: 2020-03-01 15:52:13
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The jury is still out on this. We are mostly shown dates with j’s being in the first # position. But how do we explain dates like j5j6 which could be 1516?

Korben, id like to see any examples of j in the middle of dates. Would be interesting to follow up on this.

No, sorry. However, I managed to find another inscription that claims to be by the side of the one above, but the photo is dreadful, especially the part with the all important date.

View attachment 41678
Source

This is the translation according to the webpage:
“Paso por aqi el adelantado Don Ju[an]
de Oñate del descubrimyento de la mar
del sur a 16 de Abril de 1605.”
I can’t confirm if that’s what it actually says, it seems to be pretty close, but the other inscription is also translated on the same page and it’s very fanciful. This is the English translation of the webpage version:
“Through here passed the expedition commander, Don Juan de Oñate, for the discovery of (i.e. searching for) the south sea on the 16th April 1605,”

There is more of the inscription than is shown in the photograph. I can make out a ‘P Josep’ at the bottom right. The date is again very curious because it looks like “Abril del 605” rather than “Abril de 1605” as the L or 1 is much closer to the “de” than it is to the 6. ‘del 605’ would be more grammatically correct in this situation because the word “año” (year) is implied even if it’s missing. There is no “j” or “i” in this instance.



The grammatical style, spelling and punctuation are consistent with ‘Castellano Antiguo’ or Spanish from the middle ages or the Age of Discovery if you like. “Aqvi” with v instead of u; “pazo” instead of “paso”; “Alferes” means something different these days; “Cauildo” rather than “Cabildo” which isn’t used any more anuway; “feb°” which is an old-fashioned abbreviation normally only used with numbers on addresses these days. The 1 of the number 18 is very odd though. It looks like two small characters placed vertically on top of each other and it’s underlined.



In my opinion it definitely says J526. The number 5 is drawn with 2 separate strokes, but all of the other S characters are single stroke. The J compares nicely with the J of Joseph.



JS has no special significance in Spanish that I am aware of. The J could equally refer to Juliano (i.e. the Julian calendar), Jesuito (Jesuits) as well as Jesus. There’s loads of stuff on the internet about j being an aberration of i and not having been ‘invented’ until 1524 or 1600 depending where you look. In Spanish though the J is pronounced as an English “H”, and the I as a long “EE” as in ‘teen’ so that aberration doesn’t work in Spanish. Then there’s the Greek Iesus/Jesus business. Then there’s the awkward issue of: “The phrase ‘Jesus psalter’ first noted on June of 1632 within an English legal brief prepared from the Court of the High Commission in London England.” Previous versions of the name had nothing to do with the letter J.

I tried a search for Don Joseph de Payba Basconzelos (which sounds like a name from the Basque country or Pais Basco). Both names (Payba and Basconzelo) appear separately as having held the position of ‘Cauildo’ in the 18th century section of the ‘Actas Capitulares De San Luis’ or Records of Saint Luis. San Luis de Loyola is in Argentinia and named after the bar steward Luis de Loyola who founded the Jesuits… seems there’s no getting away from them.

I sometimes wonder if this issue of 'j's and 'i's has anything to do with the way we refer to the '60s or 80's. After all it was supposedly the first time they had a number greater than 1000 to deal with...?

i was thinking that. j could stand for julius or julian, per the calendar. But then where does the i come in? Iuluis maybe?

Is it just me do those grafeti inscriptions look way too good in terms of wear and tear. In europe u can hardly read grave inscriptions from the 1700s. Maybe a dry climate preserves better.

 

[KD Archive]

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Username: KorbenDallas
Date: 2020-03-01 17:06:15
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Korben, id like to see any examples of j in the middle of dates. Would be interesting to follow up on this.

There are plenty of examples on this map. Js used for 7s, and i's (with no dot) used for 1's.

And if you scroll to a snippet of this map in the Columbus thread, you will see an oddity pertaining to the usage of these i-J's I pointed out.

 

[Jd755]

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Username: jd755
Date: 2020-03-01 17:48:51
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Not really, because aren't all years constant and steady or are there some unequal ones? Anyway, does it really matter, does it affect anything?

You've lost me there, sorry.
All was hoping to establsh from the Spanish speaking members was if the inscriiption was in any way dateable from its content, style of writing, word construction, punctuation.
And anything that could throw some light on the letter/number combination as being a date or something else entirely.
Sadly as it stand it seems that is not possible so all there is is a carved inscription on a peice of stone that could have been done last year sometime.
For me I find it incredulous that a man with that standing would scratch out an inscription on a rock wall.

 

[wild heretic]

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Username: wild heretic
Date: 2020-03-01 19:40:11
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There are plenty of examples on this map. Js used for 7s, and i's (with no dot) used for 1's.

And if you scroll to a snippet of this map in the Columbus thread, you will see an oddity pertaining to the usage of these i-J's I pointed out.

Thanks for that. After looking at the text of that map, my opinion is as follows...

• Nova Totius Terrarum Orbis geographica ac hydrographica tabula

I think the 1 is the same font as the i without a dot but it actually is a 1. They just used the same font without a dot.

The j is definitely a j and i think it means julian because there are interchanging uses of j and 1 throughout. It makes perfect sense that they are dates from two different calenders. The dates match very well too. It is also evidence of a 1000 year shift in chronolgy as julian moves up a thousand years.

• Julian calendar | History & Difference from Gregorian Calendar

"the julian calendar has gradually been abandoned since 1582." and "By the 40s BCE the Roman civic calendar was three months ahead of the solar calendar. Caesar, advised by the Alexandrian astronomer Sosigenes, introduced the Egyptian solar calendar, taking the length of the solar year as 365 1/4 days. The year was divided into 12 months, all of which had either 30 or 31 days except February, which contained 28 days in common (365 day) years and 29 in every fourth year (a leap year, of 366 days). Leap years repeated February 23; there was no February 29 in the Julian calendar. To align the civic and solar calendars, Caesar added days to 46 BCE, so that it contained 445 days. Because of misunderstandings, the calendar was not established in smooth operation until 8 CE."

So switching over from 1582 matches beautifully with the dates on the 1652 columbus map. It also puts julius ceasar at 960ad not 40 bc. As that matches the j dates very well.. Aka starting at 1000ad. So it seems the georgian calendar added the thousand years.

Also 1582 matches the massive earth expansion at the end of the 16th century very very well that affected ireland horrifically.

 

[KD Archive]

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Username: KorbenDallas
Date: 2020-03-01 20:05:20
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The j is definitely a j and i think it means julian because there are interchanging uses of j and 1 throughout. It makes perfect sense that they are dates from two different calenders. The dates match very well too. It is also evidence of a 1000 year shift in chronolgy as julian moves up a thousand years.

Could you please elaborate on this in the Columbus thread? Do not want to interfere with this discussion, for I'm gonna start asking questions.

 

[Felix Noille]

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Username: Felixnoille
Date: 2020-03-02 16:07:12
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You've lost me there, sorry.

OK...

(=constante) steady, constant
"passed" /"continuous" my attempt english translation ,"from jesus 526 years constant "

To which you replied...

Bugger. That makes sense too!

To which I replied...

Not really, because aren't all years constant and steady or are there some unequal ones? Anyway, does it really matter, does it affect anything?

In other words, the = symbol is superfluous to the meaning even if you read it as 'equals' and if you incorrectly translate equals as meaning 'constant'.

All was hoping to establsh from the Spanish speaking members was if the inscriiption was in any way dateable from its content, style of writing, word construction, punctuation.

The grammatical style, spelling and punctuation are consistent with ‘Castellano Antiguo’ or Spanish from the middle ages or the Age of Discovery if you like. “Aqvi” with v instead of u; “pazo” instead of “paso”; “Alferes” means something different these days; “Cauildo” rather than “Cabildo” which isn’t used any more anuway; “feb°” which is an old-fashioned abbreviation normally only used with numbers on addresses these days.

Sadly as it stand it seems that is not possible so all there is is a carved inscription on a peice of stone that could have been done last year sometime.
For me I find it incredulous that a man with that standing would scratch out an inscription on a rock wall.

So, why then would anyone write graffiti about someone who nobody would know about unless they looked it up on Wikipedia, in 'Middle Spanish' using obsolete words in the middle of nowhere in 2019? Is that more or less likely than Don Joseph de Payba Basconzelos being the author (although he probably dictated it) in J526?

You should see the Egyptian tombs they moved to Sudan to make way for the Aswan Dam, they are absolutely covered in ancient graffiti. Why would someone of Napoleon's standing shoot the nose off the Sphinx?

 

[Jd755]

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Username: jd755
Date: 2020-03-02 16:29:50
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Thanks for the explantion now I get where you are coming from.

So, why then would anyone write graffiti about someone who nobody would know about unless they looked it up on Wikipedia, in 'Middle Spanish' using obsolete words in the middle of nowhere in 2019?

Why indeed. Doesn't change a thing in regards to my indcredulity. I've seen lots of graffiti in my time never any drawn by a public official, aristircrat. Doesn't mean there isn't any just means I've never seen any.

And why this location where as you say no-one will ever see it?
The only thing that makes any sort of sense there is if the inscriber was incarcerated for a period of time unable to leave until whoever was holding him ther elet him out. He may have got a bit board and decided to inscribe the wall.

My reference to 'last year' was a tad obtuse, sorry. I should have said it could have been done at any time by anyone who had the means to do it, chisel presumably and the words could be on a piece of paper in their pocket. Just because its old/obsolete spanish doesn't mean its an old inscription.

Could be done as a prank though unlikely as most pranksters get their kicks from watching the reactionn of the ones being pranked.
Equally it could have been an ancient prankster messing with ancient people, or just an old one winding up archaeologists or simply someone after a fast bick from the gullible.
Doesn't seem likely it was and ancient/old prankster winding up future archaeoligists but even that is within the realms of possibility.
All ends up the inscription, its use of old spanish, it's location, the assumption the named individual in the inscription did the inscribing for reason unknown, make no sort of sense to me, always to me.

 

[Felix Noille]

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Username: Felixnoille
Date: 2020-03-02 16:58:32
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All ends up the inscription, its use of old spanish, it's location, the assumption the named individual in the inscription did the inscribing for reason unknown, make no sort of sense to me, always to me.

You obviously don't credit the authenticity of the 'J526' part of the inscription either then. So the point of this thread was...

 

[Jd755]

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Username: jd755
Date: 2020-03-02 17:13:52
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Clutching at straws.
I see the J and see the I attached to numbers, never more than three, but when I posted this thread I was in full on I or J being taken for a 1 in mainstream academic explanations and thought "are they blind!" mode.
As the people above have contributed immensely to what I am looking at in the photograph my position has altered into one where its not clear what the I or J plus two or three numbers is.
Dating does seem the most obvious and if it wasn't for the equals sign = at the end I would probably have moved on presuming it's just another example of the seemingly anomylous use of I and J.
I don't have enough for even a balance of probability to appear. Your translation points to it being a date that much is clear but were it in common use during the time of the man mentioned in the inscription then to me its fair to suggest these I and J dates should be all over the area and they ain't.
As I said clutching at straws.

 

[Archive]

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Username: FlyChaos
Date: 2020-03-08 05:19:52
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Dating does seem the most obvious and if it wasn't for the equals sign = at the end I would probably have moved on presuming it's just another example of the seemingly anomylous use of I and J.

further thought : "=" meaning "without stopping" ie carve rock without stopping here (and yes igual can mean without stopping)

In Spanish = is a purely mathematical symbol, not a punctuation mark. Its use at the end of the inscription has no sense either as a word or as a mathematical symbol. This suggests that it was used to terminate the inscription and prevent any unauthorised additions - like when writing a cheque...

Crossing of cheques - Wikipedia
Crossing of cheques - Wikipedia
Crossed cheque. A crossed cheque is a cheque that is payable only through a collecting banker and not directly at the counter of the bank. When two parallel transverse lines, with or without any word, are drawn generally, on the left hand top corner of the cheque.

not "used to terminate the inscription and prevent any unauthorised additions"
but "terminate inscription" maybe: "without stopping"

if you incorrectly translate equals as meaning 'constant'.

IT IN SPANISH DICTIONARY
igual translation English | Spanish dictionary | Reverso
(=constante) steady, constant

Why would someone of Napoleon's standing shoot the nose off the Sphinx?

he did not.
and u have been very rude on this thread to everyone

 

[Felix Noille]

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Username: Felixnoille
Date: 2020-03-08 11:49:44
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This is my final post regarding this subject as I feel my contribution has gone as far as it can.

further thought : "=" meaning "without stopping" ie carve rock without stopping here (and yes igual can mean without stopping)

Not so. Without stopping = 'sin parar'. Someone clearly did stop and carve the rock.

Crossed cheque. A crossed cheque is a cheque that is payable only through a collecting banker and not directly at the counter of the bank. When two parallel transverse lines, with or without any word, are drawn generally, on the left hand top corner of the cheque.

I didn't actually say that, it was someone else's assumption. I was referring to the practice of drawing lines after the numbers and/or words to prevent any further additions.

IT IN SPANISH DICTIONARY
igual translation English | Spanish dictionary | Reverso
(=constante) steady, constant

constante = constant. Surely you have to consider context in any translation. Why would anyone describe years as being steady or constant? As I said before, are there any years that are not steady or constant? If that was the intention then the word 'constante' is far more appropriate, but even so to convey that meaning would have required the reconstruction of the entire sentence.

he did not.
and u have been very rude on this thread to everyone

I apologise for stretching the truth about the Spinx's nose and I sincerely apologise if anyone thinks I have been rude in any manner. However, I would just like to point out that some may consider it less than polite to use 'texting' when posting in the forum.