America's Discovery in Jewish Chronicles

[Gladius]

While studying a quite 'innocent' chronology book, written by a 16th century Jewish scholar, I stumbled on an interesting piece touching
the discovery of America by the Spanish. The bits I found there surprisingly relate to a few subjects on S.H.
Among them: The question of America's name, its Moorish or Tartarian connection, Giants, and the voyagers.
I honestly did not know how to title the thread because of it, and it's mostly 'food' for research directions. Enjoy.

The book, written in old Hebrew, is called "Sefer Divre Hayamim" by Joseph haKohen, a Jewish historian born in Genoa. (1496-1575)
It is a chronological book focusing on the events taking place mostly in West Europe, and Ottoman Empire.
The book was translated to english in 19th century, with much "correction", of course. Therefore I studied it in Hebrew.
English version - "The Chronicles of Rabbi Joseph Ben Joshua Ben Meir, the Sphardi, Volume 2"
Hebrew version - original

I originally looked in it for the 'Biblical France' subject and mentioned it in a post in that connection, but extensive reading had led me to another thing.

Regarding the book itself:
- It is a very 'mainstream' minded book, it strictly follows the common chronology between Rome and Renaissance. Dates and names of battles, kings, etc., are 99% identical to official ones.
- It is the 1% of text which doesn't match chronology that I'm interested in.
- We don't know when the book was really written, but we can speculate it was during the great shift in the rewrite of history.
- It is written from a Jewish perspective, describing the wars and politics of the "goyim", often without taking sides.
- It is written in a semi-Biblical language, and uses ancient names for nations. [Germany=Ashkenaz, Muslims=Ishmaeleans, etc.]
- It does not indulge in any "fantastical" subjects or descriptions, and is purely a technical history book.

***

There's much to say about this book, but we will now touch a specific part - America's discovery.

Starting Page 4, intro:

"There was a man in Castile which is in Spain Americo by name who had a great ship and he stored it plentifully with provisions according to his heart's desire and his heart impelled him also to go forth in person to take spoil wherever he could find it and even to extend his voyage far from the borders of landt And there gathered themselves unto him vain fellows who embarked with him and went their way And they continued their voyage many days in a tract by which no man had passed from the day that the Almighty created earth and heaven."

At this part the translator makes sure to 'correct' us, that the author is confusing Amerigo Vespucci with Columbus, who is not mentioned once.
The book, in fact, follows chronology zealously, year by year, and over the most trivial things. I personally refuse to believe the author is 'confused'.

Amerigo's Arrival:

"... the watchman lifted up his eyes and saw a place afar off and cried "Ah Ah my brethren Land Land!" And the men rejoiced much and rowed towards the dry land and went on shore. And they came into a small city whose inhabitants were few and naked yet they were not ashamed. And the Spaniards spake unto them but they understood nothing except a little of the language of Ishmael. And the Spaniards asked for bread, And they brought unto them of the bread which they made and behold it was dry and mouldy. And they made of the roots of herbs which grew in their country, unleavened cakes which were not sour.
And the appearance of this bread was like the biscottoś now made in the town of Pisa which is in Tuscany.."

What is the "language of Ishmael" and why do Native Americans speak it?
In old Hebrew, Ishmael represents the Muslim nations, and they're named so throughout the book. In modern days it is attributed to Arabic, but the old books
do not verify it - It could be any Muslim language.
And what about the bread made of roots, resembling particularly a Toscana bread? Hard to make this up. I personally couldn't find a native american bread which is made of "roots and herbs", but someone will maybe.

"And the men were much astonished when they saw the Spanish weapons of war especially when they heard the voice of their guns and saw the burning flame of fire and they said 'Surely they are sons of the gods'... ... And they feared them much and brought them into their houses and gave them their silver and their gold and took for themselves of the knives and of the instruments of iron which the men of Spain had with them for there had been seen neither iron nor copper at all in that country from the day that they began to dwell in it. And the Spaniards took thence provision of all that they found and departed thence and returned to the land of Spain in joy..."

The Spanish Return:

"And it came to pass as often as the Spaniards went thither, that they took captive the inhabitants of that country to be unto them servants and handmaidens and tributaries unto this day. The Spaniards took also of their daughters some to be confectioners and cooks and bakers and there was none to deliver out of their hands.
And the cry of the inhabitants of that country went up unto heaven, And the land was widely spread before them and blessed by the Lord.
And their men were as horses and mules, they knew nothing neither did they understand, they walked in darkness and the Spaniards were instead of eyes unto them.
And it came to pass when the Spaniards began to multiply upon the face of the earth that the land was before them as the garden of the Lord, even as the land of Egypt and they took possession thereof and abode therein and called those places by names after their own manner in their land And they taught the inhabitants of the country statutes and laws according to their own pleasure and they believed in their God and their king they learned their works and when they saw the schemes of the Spaniards and their strength they reckoned them to be prophets and messengers of God and they feared them much."

Pretty much "official" stuff here, it is however notable that the natives are described as "adopting" the Spanish, not being forced by them, as they see them as gods.

America's Name:

"And the name of the man who found this country Americo, and they called it America after his name, but Peru and Klobikanah were the of that country at first and the Spaniards it the New World until this day"

The author assures us Amerigo had found the continent, not Columbus. It appears to be a 'common mistake' in the 16th century.
The dismay of modern researchers can be noted in this article called The Ethnic Background of Columbus: Inferences from a Genoese-Jewish Source, 1553-1557
The writer here is quite 'mad' that the author of the book we discuss, Joseph haKohen, was a Genoan Jew, just like Columbus, and he had made the same mistake.

As for the 'first names', we all know the name Peru, but as for "Klobikanah" - I couldn't find it anywhere, in both Eng/Hebrew sources. I wonder if it reminds anyone of a similar name in the region.

War:

"And the Spaniards warred also with the neighbouring kings, and drove them out and abode there in their stead.
They found there also great cities whose inhabitants were intelligent men instructed in science. And they had statutes and judgments like as in this country however they went after Baal and their sons they passed through the fire to Moloch unto that day".

One can wonder if Baal and Moloch are allegorical references or not.

Giants:

"They found there also a great river in which was plenty of silver and gold and gold mines and precious stones, and nothing like this was seen until this. day And they brought also thence plenty of all sorts of spices and cattle and beasts fowls and cows which were not found by us from the beginning of our existence until that day. They found there also sons of Anak (=giants) like to the height of cedars was their height, and they brought some of them to Spain bound with chains and the Spaniards were in their eyes like grasshoppers".

We have some articles today speaking of "Amerindian Giants" fantasies, but as I mentioned, this book is purely technical.

The Great Khan:

"And they went out again towards sunrise, And they reached the borders of the country of the Great Khan, the sultan who had many provinces and great cities without number. And they warred against his men, and no man could stand before them for the fear of the Spaniards fell upon them.
And they went as far as a great city whose name was Timistitan, whose merchants were princes and their men the nobles of the earth.
and they took them with subtlety, and gave them over to be plundered so the country was theirs until this day.
And Timistitan was a great city full of people, and situated in the midst of a great river, and the water was like a wall unto them round about
like the great city of Venice. And there was every day war between the Spaniards and the men of the great Khan at that time."

- Great Khan, a Sultan?
Are we indeed talking about America, or perhaps the author of the time views them as related to Muslims?
We already have many threads, discussing the connection between America to Moors, and Tartaria.
- Timistitan, apparently is an old name of Tenochtitlan, in nowadays New Mexico, which was captured in 1521.
We know this by the 16th century maps of the city, which name it Temistitan. I, however, could not find information about why the name changed (perhaps a Spanish speaker would). For some reason, several maps of the city seems to have been published in Venice. (google search Temistitan)

Temistitan, 1576

It is commonly found in history that the city was compared to Venice in its structure.
However there are major differences in version:
The author says the city belonged to THE Great Khan, or Sultan, and was conquered by a betrayal from within.
The official narratives says it belonged to Moctezuma II, and was conquered after a months-long siege.

If I may engage in the etymology game, Temistitan does ring with the Central Asian 'stan' suffix.
* Indeed I found a 90's book about Medieval Mexico, naming the city Temistán.
* Moreover, a 20th century Mexican poet wrote this once:
"All of Europe
Trembles before our King
and I do too
although I know he's only a man
who happened to be born in a royal palace
and just as easily could have been born in a hovel
in Temistán, the city sacked
so the insatiable Habsburg sun could shine
down upon its ruins"

Habsburg? Hmm.
Anyway, We can see Mexico City being named Temistan in some sources.
Temistan already sounds more Asiatic. Well, the important Persian geography book Hudud_al-'Alam, in its addenum,
mentions a 'prosperous' borough named TAMISTAN, in what I found is Persia, but found no trace of it today. (others mentioned there do)

By no means do I claim the cities are the same one. We should simply notice the existence of such a name in two cities, thousands of miles apart, and consider the American-Tartarian connection. There are indeed cities in the world that share the same name.


Magallen's Voyage
"And Ferdinand Magellano was a mighty man of valor and very experienced on the sea and on land, so Charles king of Spain gave him five large ships in the year one thousand five hundred and twenty (1520). He put in the same about five hundred men and they went also to spoil all the cities of the same country which were on the banks of the sea whithersoever the wind should suffer them to go. And they went and found many islands namely the Molucca islands and they went ashore..."

A story is then described about the battle with the Molucca's natives, and then:

"One day a certain king of the inhabitants of that country went out against them with a numerous people and with a mighty hand. And there they put the battle in array and his men were also smitten before the Spaniards for the fear of the guns fell upon them and about three thousand men of them fell slain to the ground.
However Magellano the general of the host fell slain to the ground. And they chose themselves another man and made him to be their head in his stead.
And as the men of the country saw that evil was determined against them they said "This is the finger of God". And the men sent to the Spaniards and fell down before them and said "Behold, we are slaves to the great emperor and will be his servants unto tribute"."

The Molucca Islands are attributed to Maluku Islands, Indonesia.
Quite the same country indeed.
It is also quite unfortunate, that Magallen did not die in the Molucca's, as he never went there - another Portuguese did.
Magallen was defeated in Mactan, Philippines, after which the Spanish party had departed, without subjugating the natives.
What a strange mix-up.

***

The part about America ends here.
If anyone wishes to, he can read into other parts and verify the 'chronological correctness' of the book to an almost dull level.
It is therefore that 'errors' stand out so much in it, when you find them.

The thread was done in mind of other subjects and threads on S.H.
Here are a few:
Columbus "discovered" America in 1592?
Continent of North America does not exist... or could it be a part of Asia?
Evidence of Islam in America before European colonization

​

 

[Nezumi]

The indigenous refered to it as "Temixtitan" since they use more X instead of S.


found a similar map

map

 

[Gladius]

The indigenous refered to it as "Temixtitan" since they use more X instead of S.


found a similar map

Is that a Habsburg eagle there in the top left corner of the city?

 

[Blackdiamond]

Moorish Amorika? Or Tartarian pars? In Irak they also used to build like this. Altough this villages can not compare to the size of temisTitan. Maybe it was built by the same peoples, or interacting people's. The habsburg sun is the "europeans"?

 

[Gladius]

As I noted in the post, a large portion of Temistitan maps originate from Venice, which was noted for their similarity in structure. While Venice indeed was a hub for mapmakers, there were many other hubs at the time, such as Amsterdam, Antwerpen and more. If I may wonder out loud...
1. Are Venice and Temistitan specifically modelled one after the other?
2. Are they both rare remnants of the same model from before a reset, a fact unknown to the European voyagers?
3. Are maps of the city being shifted, to be attributed to the other city, in order to fit a narrative? A 3rd city perhaps, due to the changes made in both Mexico City and Venice. Venice has its own thread here about it.

As for Temistitan, we're told the lake and waterways got dry soon after the conquest, since the "stoopid spanish" couldn't replicate the native watersystems which they destroyed, way until the 1800s where modernism brought solutions and mass resources extraction. For all I know, the story of Moctezuma vs. Spain could've been totally elsewhere.
Also, how do the mapmakers have such vast knowledge of the city already in 1521-1524, shortly after its destruction. The Aztec contents are still featured there. How could they map a city which they had presence in only after its conquest and ruin? I'm tending now to the "giveaway" theory made in the Jewish book, saying that the nobles simply traded it off to Spain, the kind of act much more expected from humans, especially ones at disadvantage from their rival.

 

[HELLBOY]

While studying a quite 'innocent' chronology book, written by a 16th century Jewish scholar, I stumbled on an interesting piece touching
the discovery of America by the Spanish. The bits I found there surprisingly relate to a few subjects on S.H.
Among them: The question of America's name, its Moorish or Tartarian connection, Giants, and the voyagers.
I honestly did not know how to title the thread because of it, and it's mostly 'food' for research directions. Enjoy.

The book, written in old Hebrew, is called "Sefer Divre Hayamim" by Joseph haKohen, a Jewish historian born in Genoa. (1496-1575)
It is a chronological book focusing on the events taking place mostly in West Europe, and Ottoman Empire.
The book was translated to english in 19th century, with much "correction", of course. Therefore I studied it in Hebrew.
English version - "The Chronicles of Rabbi Joseph Ben Joshua Ben Meir, the Sphardi, Volume 2"
Hebrew version - original

I originally looked in it for the 'Biblical France' subject and mentioned it in a post in that connection, but extensive reading had led me to another thing.

Regarding the book itself:
- It is a very 'mainstream' minded book, it strictly follows the common chronology between Rome and Renaissance. Dates and names of battles, kings, etc., are 99% identical to official ones.
- It is the 1% of text which doesn't match chronology that I'm interested in.
- We don't know when the book was really written, but we can speculate it was during the great shift in the rewrite of history.
- It is written from a Jewish perspective, describing the wars and politics of the "goyim", often without taking sides.
- It is written in a semi-Biblical language, and uses ancient names for nations. [Germany=Ashkenaz, Muslims=Ishmaeleans, etc.]
- It does not indulge in any "fantastical" subjects or descriptions, and is purely a technical history book.

***

There's much to say about this book, but we will now touch a specific part - America's discovery.

Starting Page 4, intro:

"There was a man in Castile which is in Spain Americo by name who had a great ship and he stored it plentifully with provisions according to his heart's desire and his heart impelled him also to go forth in person to take spoil wherever he could find it and even to extend his voyage far from the borders of landt And there gathered themselves unto him vain fellows who embarked with him and went their way And they continued their voyage many days in a tract by which no man had passed from the day that the Almighty created earth and heaven."

At this part the translator makes sure to 'correct' us, that the author is confusing Amerigo Vespucci with Columbus, who is not mentioned once.
The book, in fact, follows chronology zealously, year by year, and over the most trivial things. I personally refuse to believe the author is 'confused'.

Amerigo's Arrival:

"... the watchman lifted up his eyes and saw a place afar off and cried "Ah Ah my brethren Land Land!" And the men rejoiced much and rowed towards the dry land and went on shore. And they came into a small city whose inhabitants were few and naked yet they were not ashamed. And the Spaniards spake unto them but they understood nothing except a little of the language of Ishmael. And the Spaniards asked for bread, And they brought unto them of the bread which they made and behold it was dry and mouldy. And they made of the roots of herbs which grew in their country, unleavened cakes which were not sour.
And the appearance of this bread was like the biscottoś now made in the town of Pisa which is in Tuscany.."

What is the "language of Ishmael" and why do Native Americans speak it?
In old Hebrew, Ishmael represents the Muslim nations, and they're named so throughout the book. In modern days it is attributed to Arabic, but the old books
do not verify it - It could be any Muslim language.
And what about the bread made of roots, resembling particularly a Toscana bread? Hard to make this up. I personally couldn't find a native american bread which is made of "roots and herbs", but someone will maybe.

"And the men were much astonished when they saw the Spanish weapons of war especially when they heard the voice of their guns and saw the burning flame of fire and they said 'Surely they are sons of the gods'... ... And they feared them much and brought them into their houses and gave them their silver and their gold and took for themselves of the knives and of the instruments of iron which the men of Spain had with them for there had been seen neither iron nor copper at all in that country from the day that they began to dwell in it. And the Spaniards took thence provision of all that they found and departed thence and returned to the land of Spain in joy..."

The Spanish Return:

"And it came to pass as often as the Spaniards went thither, that they took captive the inhabitants of that country to be unto them servants and handmaidens and tributaries unto this day. The Spaniards took also of their daughters some to be confectioners and cooks and bakers and there was none to deliver out of their hands.
And the cry of the inhabitants of that country went up unto heaven, And the land was widely spread before them and blessed by the Lord.
And their men were as horses and mules, they knew nothing neither did they understand, they walked in darkness and the Spaniards were instead of eyes unto them.
And it came to pass when the Spaniards began to multiply upon the face of the earth that the land was before them as the garden of the Lord, even as the land of Egypt and they took possession thereof and abode therein and called those places by names after their own manner in their land And they taught the inhabitants of the country statutes and laws according to their own pleasure and they believed in their God and their king they learned their works and when they saw the schemes of the Spaniards and their strength they reckoned them to be prophets and messengers of God and they feared them much."

Pretty much "official" stuff here, it is however notable that the natives are described as "adopting" the Spanish, not being forced by them, as they see them as gods.

America's Name:

"And the name of the man who found this country Americo, and they called it America after his name, but Peru and Klobikanah were the of that country at first and the Spaniards it the New World until this day"

The author assures us Amerigo had found the continent, not Columbus. It appears to be a 'common mistake' in the 16th century.
The dismay of modern researchers can be noted in this article called The Ethnic Background of Columbus: Inferences from a Genoese-Jewish Source, 1553-1557
The writer here is quite 'mad' that the author of the book we discuss, Joseph haKohen, was a Genoan Jew, just like Columbus, and he had made the same mistake.

As for the 'first names', we all know the name Peru, but as for "Klobikanah" - I couldn't find it anywhere, in both Eng/Hebrew sources. I wonder if it reminds anyone of a similar name in the region.

War:

"And the Spaniards warred also with the neighbouring kings, and drove them out and abode there in their stead.
They found there also great cities whose inhabitants were intelligent men instructed in science. And they had statutes and judgments like as in this country however they went after Baal and their sons they passed through the fire to Moloch unto that day".

One can wonder if Baal and Moloch are allegorical references or not.

Giants:

"They found there also a great river in which was plenty of silver and gold and gold mines and precious stones, and nothing like this was seen until this. day And they brought also thence plenty of all sorts of spices and cattle and beasts fowls and cows which were not found by us from the beginning of our existence until that day. They found there also sons of Anak (=giants) like to the height of cedars was their height, and they brought some of them to Spain bound with chains and the Spaniards were in their eyes like grasshoppers".

We have some articles today speaking of "Amerindian Giants" fantasies, but as I mentioned, this book is purely technical.

The Great Khan:

"And they went out again towards sunrise, And they reached the borders of the country of the Great Khan, the sultan who had many provinces and great cities without number. And they warred against his men, and no man could stand before them for the fear of the Spaniards fell upon them.
And they went as far as a great city whose name was Timistitan, whose merchants were princes and their men the nobles of the earth.
and they took them with subtlety, and gave them over to be plundered so the country was theirs until this day.
And Timistitan was a great city full of people, and situated in the midst of a great river, and the water was like a wall unto them round about
like the great city of Venice. And there was every day war between the Spaniards and the men of the great Khan at that time."

- Great Khan, a Sultan?
Are we indeed talking about America, or perhaps the author of the time views them as related to Muslims?
We already have many threads, discussing the connection between America to Moors, and Tartaria.
- Timistitan, apparently is an old name of Tenochtitlan, in nowadays New Mexico, which was captured in 1521.
We know this by the 16th century maps of the city, which name it Temistitan. I, however, could not find information about why the name changed (perhaps a Spanish speaker would). For some reason, several maps of the city seems to have been published in Venice. (google search Temistitan)

View attachment 12992​

Temistitan, 1576

It is commonly found in history that the city was compared to Venice in its structure.
However there are major differences in version:
The author says the city belonged to THE Great Khan, or Sultan, and was conquered by a betrayal from within.
The official narratives says it belonged to Moctezuma II, and was conquered after a months-long siege.

If I may engage in the etymology game, Temistitan does ring with the Central Asian 'stan' suffix.
* Indeed I found a 90's book about Medieval Mexico, naming the city Temistán.
* Moreover, a 20th century Mexican poet wrote this once:
"All of Europe
Trembles before our King
and I do too
although I know he's only a man
who happened to be born in a royal palace
and just as easily could have been born in a hovel
in Temistán, the city sacked
so the insatiable Habsburg sun could shine
down upon its ruins"

Habsburg? Hmm.
Anyway, We can see Mexico City being named Temistan in some sources.
Temistan already sounds more Asiatic. Well, the important Persian geography book Hudud_al-'Alam, in its addenum,
mentions a 'prosperous' borough named TAMISTAN, in what I found is Persia, but found no trace of it today. (others mentioned there do)

View attachment 12993​

By no means do I claim the cities are the same one. We should simply notice the existence of such a name in two cities, thousands of miles apart, and consider the American-Tartarian connection. There are indeed cities in the world that share the same name.


Magallen's Voyage
"And Ferdinand Magellano was a mighty man of valor and very experienced on the sea and on land, so Charles king of Spain gave him five large ships in the year one thousand five hundred and twenty (1520). He put in the same about five hundred men and they went also to spoil all the cities of the same country which were on the banks of the sea whithersoever the wind should suffer them to go. And they went and found many islands namely the Molucca islands and they went ashore..."

A story is then described about the battle with the Molucca's natives, and then:

"One day a certain king of the inhabitants of that country went out against them with a numerous people and with a mighty hand. And there they put the battle in array and his men were also smitten before the Spaniards for the fear of the guns fell upon them and about three thousand men of them fell slain to the ground.
However Magellano the general of the host fell slain to the ground. And they chose themselves another man and made him to be their head in his stead.
And as the men of the country saw that evil was determined against them they said "This is the finger of God". And the men sent to the Spaniards and fell down before them and said "Behold, we are slaves to the great emperor and will be his servants unto tribute"."

The Molucca Islands are attributed to Maluku Islands, Indonesia.
Quite the same country indeed.
It is also quite unfortunate, that Magallen did not die in the Molucca's, as he never went there - another Portuguese did.
Magallen was defeated in Mactan, Philippines, after which the Spanish party had departed, without subjugating the natives.
What a strange mix-up.

***

The part about America ends here.
If anyone wishes to, he can read into other parts and verify the 'chronological correctness' of the book to an almost dull level.
It is therefore that 'errors' stand out so much in it, when you find them.

The thread was done in mind of other subjects and threads on S.H.
Here are a few:
Columbus "discovered" America in 1592?
Continent of North America does not exist... or could it be a part of Asia?
Evidence of Islam in America before European colonization

​

According to wiki this means Tenochtitlan: Tenochtitlan (place of Tenoch, "stone tuna"), was founded on an island in Lake Texcoco in 1325, when the ancestors of the Mexica saw an eagle perched on a nopal cactus, this being the origin of the national coat of arms of Mexico. The original name of the city was Cuauhmixtitlan ("place of the eagle among the clouds" in Nahuatl). It was renamed by Acamapichtli in 1376 as a tribute to Tenoch. México-Tenochtitlan - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre.

And according to this Nahuatl-speaking woman:
Tenochtitlan from :
Tetl te = stone
noch from nochtli = prickly pear
ti = between
tlan = place
(Place where prickly pears abound)

I have , Mexico de :
Me from Metl = Maguey
Xih de Xihtli = Navel, Center
Co = Protected place.

Mexico-Tenochtitlan (divine Tunal where is Mextli) the goddess of the Moon.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=211_kt0IEko


According to this article: Promotora Espa&#241ola de Ling&#252&#237stica.

The Aztecs or Mexica, who founded their capital Mexico-Tenochtitlan in 1325, spoke the Nahuatl dialect and, as their empire spread over much of central and southern Mexico, the language spread considerably. However, the victors did not try to impose their language among the conquered peoples. Some of them, in the first place, already spoke it in one of their dialects, especially in the area that today comprises the Federal District and the states of Mexico, Morelos, Hidalgo, Puebla, Veracruz and Guerrero. But the Otomi, Mazahua, Matlatzinca, Totonac, Huaxtec, Mixtec, Zapotec and many other groups have preserved their native languages until modern times.
As in the case of the Mayan languages, literary works in Nahuatl prior to the conquest take the form of a pictographic script that was probably used to memorize oral traditions. The introduction of the Roman alphabet by the Spanish friars played an important role in the preservation of part of the Aztec culture, the other part was destroyed by the Spaniards themselves. The work of Bernardino de Sahagún (1530-1590) was of crucial importance because it contains encyclopedic research on Aztec civilization and many examples of historical, religious and poetic writings.

HB: I was reading Bernardino de Sahagun but he does not name the city Temix-Titan, but only Mexico City. And it is said that he spoke Nahuatl better than anyone else. By the way, he came to teach Latin to the Mexican nobles.
The painanis, the messengers of the empire which is very similar to the Greek style, were professional runners. In their messages they carried only pictographic drawings and thus were able to transmit more information as opposed to writing.

THE LEARNING OF THE NAHUATL LANGUAGE
BETWEEN THE FRANCISCANS AND THE JESUITS
IN THE NEW SPAIN https://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn24/444.pdf

The New Spain that the Franciscans found upon their arrival was very different from the one the Jesuits had known 50 years later. War was still raging in Mesoamerica and the population was beginning to collapse.
It was essential for the friars to know the language of the natives in order to communicate with them and evangelize them. For this reason, they immediately
immediately tried to learn Nahuatl, which functioned as a common language, but when they arrived there were few people who could teach them and they had to learn it by listening and trying to talk to the children, and some of them showed a gift for learning languages.
They showed a gift for learning languages after a short time.

Mendieta also gives a romantic view of how the friars tried to learn the language:
the friars tried to learn Nahuatl through the children, because the adults would hardly speak to them.
The adults hardly spoke to them because of the respect they had for them.
they had for them:
sometimes leaving the seriousness of their persons, they played with them with straws or pebbles during the time, to
to learn their language. And they always carried paper and
ink in their hands, and when they heard the word of the Indian, they wrote it in Latin surely. And in the evening the religious would meet and communicate with each other about their writings, and as best they could, they would use the words in the romance that seemed most convenient to them.
They said that what seemed to them to be understood today was not understood tomorrow.

In this 1521 newspaper Temix-Titan was called Gran Venecia. SH Archive - Country that the Spaniards Found in 1521, Called Yucatan

This man Johannes Schoner (1477-1547) who claimed in 1523 that Tenochtitlán, the city conquered by Hernán Cortés two years earlier, was the Chinese metropolis of Quinsay, the "City of Heaven".

-America joined to the Asian continent according to some ancient maps.
-A surprising architecture.
-Similarity between Marco Polo's statements when he visited Quinsay and those of Hernán Cortés when he arrived at Temix-Titan.
Is Mexico-Tenochtitlan in reality the mythic Quinsay as described by Marco Polo?

What do you know about Spain and the year 1492?
Most will recognize the date as being the year of the supposed discovery of the Americas by Christopher Columbus under orders from the Spanish crown, kick-starting the great expansion of the Spanish Empire, if not its very birth.

That event alone is enough to consider 1492 as one of the most important years in the history of Spain and the entire world.
However, 1492 does not agree.
1492

You might also be interested in looking at these other threads:
SH Archive - Welcome to Tenochtitlan as it was in 1520
SH Archive Replies - Welcome to Tenochtitlan as it was in 1520
The secret of the twins Quetzalcoatl and Xolotl
Fernando Cortés, AKA Moses

Metztli was the Toltec moon goddess and is the same as the Maya Metztli - Wikipedia.
Chinese moon goddess: Chang'e - Wikipedia
Mayan moon goddess:
Ixchel - Wikipedia

The reason for this comparison is to tell you that the true origin of the people of America could be in China, India, etc. And all of them in times of The Great Tartary. That would better explain the king called Tartarrax of Quivira. SH Archive - 16th century Tartarian King Tartarrax ruled Quivira Regnum in North America
The thread about Fousang may even be related. SH Archive - Fou-Sang & 1870s board game: Voyage from New York to San Francisco upon the Union Pacific Railroad


There are many parallels that I have found between Mexico and the Asian countries, even the philosopher Osho speaks of a mention in the Mahabaratha:
I remind you that Mexico comes from the Sanskrit term makshika, and in Mexico you can find thousands of proofs that Hinduism existed long before Jesus Christ, why are we going to talk about Columbus!
Reference is made in some ancient Hindu scriptures; they say that people could walk from Asia to America. They even married. Arjuna, the famous warrior of the Hindu epic Mahabharata, and famous disciple of Krisna, was married to a Mexican girl. Of course, they called Mexico Makshika, but the description is exactly that of Mexico. In Mexico there are statues of Ganesh, the Hindu elephant god. It would be impossible to find a statue of the elephant god in England! It would be impossible to find it anywhere, unless that country had come into contact with Hinduism.

If you want to know more you will have to read the work of the monk Bhikkhu Chamanlal, in his book Hindu America. I find it strange that no one pays attention to his work. Christians, of course, cannot pay attention to it, but scholars should be impartial.

Here is the book:
Bhikkhu Chamanlal, in his book Hindu America.
https://ia801305.us.archive.org/4/items/HinduAmerica_201511/Hindu-America.pdf

 

[Nezumi]

According to wiki this means Tenochtitlan: Tenochtitlan (place of Tenoch, "stone tuna"), was founded on an island in Lake Texcoco in 1325, when the ancestors of the Mexica saw an eagle perched on a nopal cactus, this being the origin of the national coat of arms of Mexico. The original name of the city was Cuauhmixtitlan ("place of the eagle among the clouds" in Nahuatl). It was renamed by Acamapichtli in 1376 as a tribute to Tenoch. México-Tenochtitlan - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre.

And according to this Nahuatl-speaking woman:
Tenochtitlan from :
Tetl te = stone
noch from nochtli = prickly pear
ti = between
tlan = place
(Place where prickly pears abound)

I have , Mexico de :
Me from Metl = Maguey
Xih de Xihtli = Navel, Center
Co = Protected place.

Mexico-Tenochtitlan (divine Tunal where is Mextli) the goddess of the Moon.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=211_kt0IEko


According to this article: Promotora Espa&#241ola de Ling&#252&#237stica.

The Aztecs or Mexica, who founded their capital Mexico-Tenochtitlan in 1325, spoke the Nahuatl dialect and, as their empire spread over much of central and southern Mexico, the language spread considerably. However, the victors did not try to impose their language among the conquered peoples. Some of them, in the first place, already spoke it in one of their dialects, especially in the area that today comprises the Federal District and the states of Mexico, Morelos, Hidalgo, Puebla, Veracruz and Guerrero. But the Otomi, Mazahua, Matlatzinca, Totonac, Huaxtec, Mixtec, Zapotec and many other groups have preserved their native languages until modern times.
As in the case of the Mayan languages, literary works in Nahuatl prior to the conquest take the form of a pictographic script that was probably used to memorize oral traditions. The introduction of the Roman alphabet by the Spanish friars played an important role in the preservation of part of the Aztec culture, the other part was destroyed by the Spaniards themselves. The work of Bernardino de Sahagún (1530-1590) was of crucial importance because it contains encyclopedic research on Aztec civilization and many examples of historical, religious and poetic writings.

HB: I was reading Bernardino de Sahagun but he does not name the city Temix-Titan, but only Mexico City. And it is said that he spoke Nahuatl better than anyone else. By the way, he came to teach Latin to the Mexican nobles.
The painanis, the messengers of the empire which is very similar to the Greek style, were professional runners. In their messages they carried only pictographic drawings and thus were able to transmit more information as opposed to writing.

THE LEARNING OF THE NAHUATL LANGUAGE
BETWEEN THE FRANCISCANS AND THE JESUITS
IN THE NEW SPAIN https://www.historicas.unam.mx/publicaciones/revistas/nahuatl/pdf/ecn24/444.pdf

The New Spain that the Franciscans found upon their arrival was very different from the one the Jesuits had known 50 years later. War was still raging in Mesoamerica and the population was beginning to collapse.
It was essential for the friars to know the language of the natives in order to communicate with them and evangelize them. For this reason, they immediately
immediately tried to learn Nahuatl, which functioned as a common language, but when they arrived there were few people who could teach them and they had to learn it by listening and trying to talk to the children, and some of them showed a gift for learning languages.
They showed a gift for learning languages after a short time.

Mendieta also gives a romantic view of how the friars tried to learn the language:
the friars tried to learn Nahuatl through the children, because the adults would hardly speak to them.
The adults hardly spoke to them because of the respect they had for them.
they had for them:
sometimes leaving the seriousness of their persons, they played with them with straws or pebbles during the time, to
to learn their language. And they always carried paper and
ink in their hands, and when they heard the word of the Indian, they wrote it in Latin surely. And in the evening the religious would meet and communicate with each other about their writings, and as best they could, they would use the words in the romance that seemed most convenient to them.
They said that what seemed to them to be understood today was not understood tomorrow.

In this 1521 newspaper Temix-Titan was called Gran Venecia. SH Archive - Country that the Spaniards Found in 1521, Called Yucatan

This man Johannes Schoner (1477-1547) who claimed in 1523 that Tenochtitlán, the city conquered by Hernán Cortés two years earlier, was the Chinese metropolis of Quinsay, the "City of Heaven".

-America joined to the Asian continent according to some ancient maps.
-A surprising architecture.
-Similarity between Marco Polo's statements when he visited Quinsay and those of Hernán Cortés when he arrived at Temix-Titan.
Is Mexico-Tenochtitlan in reality the mythic Quinsay as described by Marco Polo?

What do you know about Spain and the year 1492?
Most will recognize the date as being the year of the supposed discovery of the Americas by Christopher Columbus under orders from the Spanish crown, kick-starting the great expansion of the Spanish Empire, if not its very birth.

That event alone is enough to consider 1492 as one of the most important years in the history of Spain and the entire world.
However, 1492 does not agree.
1492

You might also be interested in looking at these other threads:
SH Archive - Welcome to Tenochtitlan as it was in 1520
SH Archive Replies - Welcome to Tenochtitlan as it was in 1520
The secret of the twins Quetzalcoatl and Xolotl
Fernando Cortés, AKA Moses

View attachment 13022​

Metztli was the Toltec moon goddess and is the same as the Maya Metztli - Wikipedia.
Chinese moon goddess: Chang'e - Wikipedia
Mayan moon goddess:
Ixchel - Wikipedia

The reason for this comparison is to tell you that the true origin of the people of America could be in China, India, etc. And all of them in times of The Great Tartary. That would better explain the king called Tartarrax of Quivira. SH Archive - 16th century Tartarian King Tartarrax ruled Quivira Regnum in North America
The thread about Fousang may even be related. SH Archive - Fou-Sang & 1870s board game: Voyage from New York to San Francisco upon the Union Pacific Railroad


There are many parallels that I have found between Mexico and the Asian countries, even the philosopher Osho speaks of a mention in the Mahabaratha:
I remind you that Mexico comes from the Sanskrit term makshika, and in Mexico you can find thousands of proofs that Hinduism existed long before Jesus Christ, why are we going to talk about Columbus!
Reference is made in some ancient Hindu scriptures; they say that people could walk from Asia to America. They even married. Arjuna, the famous warrior of the Hindu epic Mahabharata, and famous disciple of Krisna, was married to a Mexican girl. Of course, they called Mexico Makshika, but the description is exactly that of Mexico. In Mexico there are statues of Ganesh, the Hindu elephant god. It would be impossible to find a statue of the elephant god in England! It would be impossible to find it anywhere, unless that country had come into contact with Hinduism.

If you want to know more you will have to read the work of the monk Bhikkhu Chamanlal, in his book Hindu America. I find it strange that no one pays attention to his work. Christians, of course, cannot pay attention to it, but scholars should be impartial.

Here is the book:
Bhikkhu Chamanlal, in his book Hindu America.
https://ia801305.us.archive.org/4/items/HinduAmerica_201511/Hindu-America.pdf

Could you please refer to where in the book, it mentions Arjuna married a Mexcian?
I only found another source mentioning he married one. (osho menotied on his website)
would also be interesting know of any mexican depictions of Arjuna wifes?

Arjuna is known to have had 4 wives , one of which was known Ulupi, who was a part of the "Naga" race (Nagas are divine, semi-divine deities, or a semi-divine race of half-human half-serpent beings)Cihuācōātl, "snake woman";

In Aztec mythology, "Mixcoatl" had 3 wives which of one was Coatlicue, who is also refered to as "Cihuacoatl , "snake woman"; and cōātl īcue “skirt of snakes”.

Ulupi was known to have a waist resembles that of a snake.

It says Mixcoatl was distinguished by his hunting gear and bow and arrows
The weapons Arjuna used were also a bow and arrow.

So they have had snake like wives , both used a bow and arrow and one was a warrior the other a hunter,
the only thing with the wives is Arjuna had4 while Mixcoatl had 3.

Mixcoatl was depictedas having white "candy-cane stripes" , I've seen some old art of Arjuna using alot of red and white (on his chariots and flags etc) although not many tbh.

what yall think?

On another note you said " It would be impossible to find a statue of the elephant god in England!" which is true but you'd be suprsied that we have Celtic people here (more in scotland and ireland) , had a "Celtic-Vedic" connection, There are some Hindu(vedic) infulence in scotland and ireland , more in ireland than scotland.

• Old Irish – arya (freeman),Sanskrit – aire (noble)
• Old Irish – naib (good), Sanskrit – noeib (holy)
• Old Irish – badhira (deaf), Sanskrit – bodhar (deaf)
• Old Irish – names (respect), Sanskrit – nemed (respect)
• Old Irish – righ (king), Sanskrit – raja (king)

 

[HELLBOY]

Could you please refer to where in the book, it mentions Arjuna married a Mexcian?
I only found another source mentioning he married one. (osho menotied on his website)
would also be interesting know of any mexican depictions of Arjuna wifes?

Arjuna is known to have had 4 wives , one of which was known Ulupi, who was a part of the "Naga" race (Nagas are divine, semi-divine deities, or a semi-divine race of half-human half-serpent beings)Cihuācōātl, "snake woman";

In Aztec mythology, "Mixcoatl" had 3 wives which of one was Coatlicue, who is also refered to as "Cihuacoatl , "snake woman"; and cōātl īcue “skirt of snakes”.

Ulupi was known to have a waist resembles that of a snake.

It says Mixcoatl was distinguished by his hunting gear and bow and arrows
The weapons Arjuna used were also a bow and arrow.

So they have had snake like wives , both used a bow and arrow and one was a warrior the other a hunter,
the only thing with the wives is Arjuna had4 while Mixcoatl had 3.

Mixcoatl was depictedas having white "candy-cane stripes" , I've seen some old art of Arjuna using alot of red and white (on his chariots and flags etc) although not many tbh.

what yall think?

On another note you said " It would be impossible to find a statue of the elephant god in England!" which is true but you'd be suprsied that we have Celtic people here (more in scotland and ireland) , had a "Celtic-Vedic" connection, There are some Hindu(vedic) infulence in scotland and ireland , more in ireland than scotland.

• Old Irish – arya (freeman),Sanskrit – aire (noble)
• Old Irish – naib (good), Sanskrit – noeib (holy)
• Old Irish – badhira (deaf), Sanskrit – bodhar (deaf)
• Old Irish – names (respect), Sanskrit – nemed (respect)
• Old Irish – righ (king), Sanskrit – raja (king)

The kingdom called Makshika is mentioned in the Mahabaratha, a Sanskrit word that is said to be the origin of the word "Mexica".
The truth is that I do not have the book of the Mahabaratha and I saw it in a publication on comparisons of Indian and Mayan figures.
This is what the complete publication said:

Among scholars of ancient Indian texts, there is a notion that in present day Mexican territory there was a kingdom called Makshika, mentioned in the Mahabaratha, a Sanskrit word which they claim is the origin of the word "Mexica" (pronounced in Nahuatl "Meshica". Curiously "Meksika" is the word for Mexico in the Turkish language today). According to this version, one of Arjuna's consorts would have come from this kingdom, and as a result of the union, an alliance would have been established between the Pandavas and this trans-pacific kingdom, where the goddess Kali was worshipped, (in this cult in India, at some time human sacrifices were common practice as part of their rituals). Under the terms of this alliance, the Makshika kings would have sent their armies and fought shoulder to shoulder alongside Arjuna against the Kauravas for the throne of Hastināpura (near present-day New Delhi) in the famous battle of Kurukshetra, narrated in detail in the Mahabaratha and lasting 18 days. The battle was incredibly costly in human lives, it is estimated in the ancient text that about 4 million warriors on both sides died.
In India it is considered that the battle of Kurukshetra was a historical event, dating it between 3102 B.C. and 800 of our era.
Are there elements in Mexico that support this notion? Was there a cult to the goddess Kali in ancient Mexico? The following images speak for themselves...

• Mexico - Yum Kimil, God of Death
• India - Chamunda and Kali, Goddess of War and Pestilence

Chamunda is said to be a matrika, a form of Kali created by Durga from herself, to defeat the demon Raktabīja. Kali is given the epithet Chamunda in the Devi Mahatmya text, thus Chamunda is identified with Kali.

Similarities: Elongated and pierced ears. Decapitated head in left hand, Moustache.

• Osho's reference to this can be found in his book: Glimpses of a Golden Childhood.

In this link it appears in section 6, only in Spanish. OSHO: VISLUMBRES DE UNA INFANCIA DORADA

• Thanks for that pun, no doubt the Irish and Scots were very closely related to the Scythians and therefore all peoples, according to the thread about Fousang there were many Irish in the USA. Many Irish fought on the Mexican side in the war with the US. The diversity of nations most likely already existed here in America before Columbus or Americo Vespucci as these Jewish chronicles say or time is artificially stretched and everything is more recent as soon as Tartary took over Global control.
• Yesterday I even heard of a white race of white skinned Chichimecas, Moctezuma also had very white skinned children in his palace. Chichimecas blancos - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
• I have also seen the Etruscans, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans are very present in similarities with America. All of these comparisons you will have to look at with an open mind as it may interest you or see it as meaningless, but many of these comparisons are very strong.

And since you mention Cuatlicue, I found this interesting image about it.
What do you think?

 

[mifletzet]

There are rabbis today who claim that Yucatan in Mexico derives from the Yoktan of Genesis, and that the River Mississippi is one of the 4 rivers that came out from Eden!
Italian sailors 'knew about America 150 years BEFORE Columbus'

 

[OfTheBrave]

...
View attachment 12992
Temistitan, 1576
...

Very interesting find you've made there.
First thing that stood out to me is the word titan in Temistitan.
Then I saw the drawing.

That made me think, "Looks like Atlantis.. Atlantis is named after Atlas. Wasn't Atlas a titan?"
Yeah, he was.
So was his mother, Themis.

So I figured, "Atlas has an island fortress city named after him, why shouldn't his mother have one named after her?"
ThemisTitan
or
Themisstan/Themistan if we assume the alternate spelling.

Kind of jumped out at me, let me know what you think.

 

[EUAFU]

What perplexed me actually was this language of the Khazarian AKA Jew describing the events with the usual Biblical language. That is beyond strange and suspicious.

As for the bread offered to the Spaniards, it is quite common in South America for a cassava flour dough to be baked, in Brazil we call it Tapioca or Beiju.

 

[ProfessorHotStuff]

Klobikanah could be related to Colombia or perhaps be related to the name Columbus, just speculation though.

 

[Gladius]

Klobikanah could be related to Colombia or perhaps be related to the name Columbus, just speculation though.

I thought putting that in as well, but not so confident of it. We just got K.L.O, the rest is too different.
If it is Colombia, it further secures the idea that the author is unaware of Columbus character, whom he didn't mention. However the name is suggested as something native to the area. Perhaps Columbus was invented to occupy that name's narrative. But still we can't be too secure about this Klobikanah.

 

[Whitewave]

Klobikanah could be related to Colombia or perhaps be related to the name Columbus, just speculation though.

Sounds more like Kubla Khan to me.

Also Breadroot is used by native Americans to make bread.

 

[Gladius]

Sounds more like Kubla Khan to me.

Also Breadroot is used by native Americans to make bread.

Nice find, here we see a plant found as south as Texas. We're told however that Vespucci visited only South America.

 

[emperornorton]

Giants:

"They found there also a great river in which was plenty of silver and gold and gold mines and precious stones, and nothing like this was seen until this. day And they brought also thence plenty of all sorts of spices and cattle and beasts fowls and cows which were not found by us from the beginning of our existence until that day. They found there also sons of Anak (=giants) like to the height of cedars was their height, and they brought some of them to Spain bound with chains and the Spaniards were in their eyes like grasshoppers".

​

See: Fernando Cortés, AKA Moses

As far as "Ishmaelites" go, these were historically equated with the Tartars/Scythians and (occasionally) the Chinese. 15th-century Jewish apocalyptic literature was preoccupied with the (apparently recent) "escape" of the Ishmaelites, which was to precipitate their momentous reunion with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. The "Tripoli Prophecy" in currency in Europe around that time has a similar theme.

Of course there is evidence of Ottoman and/or Muslim civilization in the Americas as well.

 

[OutSideIn]

What perplexed me actually was this language of the Khazarian AKA Jew describing the events with the usual Biblical language. That is beyond strange and suspicious.

As for the bread offered to the Spaniards, it is quite common in South America for a cassava flour dough to be baked, in Brazil we call it Tapioca or Beiju.

Khazars to my knowledge have never been traced to any place of origin. I am trying to research this without success. It's my theory that these were another species of life, not human; but, later khazarians/? perhaps mixed with humans creating a hybrid. Those are the modern day descendants of those who I theorize have planet hopped and have co'opted the Jewish religion and culture. These most surely could be what we are at war with presently in our world. I find any mention of khazarain language worth following up on.

 

[Oracle]

Old Irish – arya (freeman),Sanskrit – aire (noble)

That is interesting considering Ireland is now known as Eire.

If you check out this book While the Gods Play: Shaiva Oracles and Predictions on the Cycles of History and the Destiny of Man
The author has some interesting things to say about the origins of Hinduism.

 

[UgricMongol]

View attachment 13267​

See: Fernando Cortés, AKA Moses

As far as "Ishmaelites" go, these were historically equated with the Tartars/Scythians and (occasionally) the Chinese. 15th-century Jewish apocalyptic literature was preoccupied with the (apparently recent) "escape" of the Ishmaelites, which was to precipitate their momentous reunion with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. The "Tripoli Prophecy" in currency in Europe around that time has a similar theme.

Of course there is evidence of Ottoman and/or Muslim civilization in the Americas as well.

I remember I read somewhere that these encounters were translated by Hungarians as they were the ones that could talk to the locals.

Which reminds me of a Hungarian in Australia saying the same thing, he can talk to Aboriginals in Hungarian.

Thirdly I remember something along the lines "as soon as the pope found out they spoke 'Hungarian', he ordered the genocides."

Fourthly, Hungarian lore has it that their language is pre-Babel ie before the confusion of tongues. And ideed, Hungarian should be read and understood "in reverse", compared to Germanic etc

And yes, Hungarian lore also states they descend from scythians from the east.

Sure the Varican had reason to cover up things. Hungary was christianised (ie neutralised), but these 'savages' weren't, yet.

 

[emerald]

If you really want to know the Truth you will have to find out who are the Biblical Jews. Ishmael is the son of Abraham. The Ashkenazi Jews are of Japheth not Shem. Read also Enoch if you want to know more about the children of the Fallen Angels how they looked like. Noah had the same complexion but his parents were of dark-skinned.