Fact and fiction as sources.

Been wondering today would I recognise evidence of dating if it smacked me in the face?
Taking the printing press as the example, seems topical, the actual machine itself not the types or the paper.
If there was a metal plaque on it somewhere that didn't look like it was put there yesterday, which bore a date then that is a start point?
If any screws on the machine were obviously hand made then they are evidence it was made prior to the invention of screw making machines. No use as dating evidence but they would lend credence to the date on the plate?
If the wood was engraved or carved with a date, say on the underside or on an interrnal face then that would be good evidence that the woodwork piece is at least of the age the date refers to.
It would not be conclusive evidence for the date of the machines construction but is very suggestive of it.
I have come across a bare couple of bricks which had "kilroy was here 15th August 1867" or something along those lines carved into the still wet clay prior to firing, which is for me as good as it gets for the dating of something physical.
Mainly because I cannot see any reason to fake such a thing by putting a bogus date on it and they are exceedingly rare.
It doesn't date whatever structure its in but is again suggestive of it.
If its place in the structure were noted then it could be used to suggest the date of construction of that part of the wall is contemporary with it but equally the construction could be finished decades later.

Almost as good is a time capsule affair. Be it a sealed box or a glass bottle if it contains more than one dated item in it then the odds favour it being authentic to at least the moment it was sealed if not authentic to the date on the items.
Trouble is there to be certain I would have to be present at the opening and able to examine the artifacts myself.

So in terms of the printing press machine what if anything would pass muster as dating evidence for its construction?

It appears none of the Faust/Gutenberg machines or those attributed to their students survive either intact or in modified or even reused form so it rather renders this singular avenue poinless.
I may be losing the plot.
 
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Been wondering today would I recognise evidence of dating if it smacked me in the face?
...
So in terms of the printing press machine what if anything would pass muster as dating evidence for its construction?

It appears none of the Faust/Gutenberg machines or those attributed to their students survive either intact or in modified or even reused form so it rather renders this singular avenue poinless.
...
I am still comparing the 1897 encyclopedia excerpt to De Vinne's 1787 book (points are mix of "disagree", "roughly the same", and "uncertain due lack of evidence"), but, relevant to the continuing thread, a couple of notes from De Vinne are:
  • It would have been nice if Gutenberg had put his name and date on his early books (the bibles said to be his), especially since that was a common practice of printers at the time.
  • One story of an early alleged printer (Coster) seems to be just a legend a far as can be told, no matter its popularity among authors, since the oldest evidence for it is a document written over 100 years after the events, plus none of the other details check out, but the story took off from there.
In contrast, some of the helpful evidence De Vinne includes consists of things like
  • court records/transcripts (recorded witness testimony) and
  • (municipal?) purchasing records.
So, to recap, an "improvement" over the status quo could include more artifacts like
  • artifacts that have dates (and names) on them (as Jd said) and
  • documents that are dated to originate from the time that they describe,
    • for example, personal journals or work logs giving accounts of events on different days.
This does not answer what "truly sufficient" historical evidence would be, but there appear to be clear historical cases where there are surviving reasonably supportive artifacts (whether one trusts them or not) versus none even claimed to be existing from the time being described. The alleged inventings of typographic printing are recent enough that one could want more evidence, but it is not guaranteed.

Side notes: even today, people express great diversity of opinion over the values of keeping secret (ostensibly uniquely held) information vs. sharing their intelligence as broadly as possible. Same goes for people making stuff and people documenting that stuff--it's often different people, and (at least in some disciplines) the rare case is one who does both well, in my experience.
 
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Do the stories in your book tally at all with the ones in the Encyclopedia?
I am still comparing the 1897 encyclopedia excerpt to De Vinne's 1787 [sic] book (points are mix of "disagree", "roughly the same", and "uncertain due lack of evidence")
The review table appears below at this time, since I do not think I will be able to continue it much further very soon. This is not the result of a forensic review. It is more for flavor, as errors and omissions may be present; I am not sure I picked the best quotations addressing each item. I tried to pick out the main points from the available 1897 text and see how they checked out in the 1876 book.

(While this does not really provide forward progress for the subject of this thread, IMO this thread might not really be complete without this followup.)


Table Comparing The National Encylopedia (1897) with The Art of Printing (De Vinne, 1876)

Points made in the 1897 National Encyclopedia (per excerpt by Jd)Closest match in The Invention of Printing (De Vinne, 1787) [OVERALL SUMMARY IN CAPS]
Gutenberg invented printing.​
UNCERTAIN BUT POSSIBLE: “The period of the invention of typography may be placed between 1438 and 1450. There have been many claimants for the honor of the invention...The names of the alleged inventors are, Castaldi, Coster, Fust, Gensfleisch, Gresmund, Gutenberg, Hahn, Mentel, Jenson, Regiomontanus, Schoeffer, Pannartz and Sweinheym, and Louis de Vaelbaeske...The limits of the controversy have been greatly contracted: but four of the alleged inventors of types, Castaldi, Coster, Gutenberg and Schoeffer, have living defenders.” (p. 27)​
C. 1423, Coster of Haralem did block printing of “Speculum Humnae Salvationis”.​
DISAGREE, though STORY IS INCLUDED:
“Some have said that there are were no types in any of the editions, and that the letters...were cut on blocks of wood...This error is almost pardonable...but it can be shown that the letters are types, and founded types...tracings testing...establishes the fact that the letters are founded types...The errors...are those of types.” (p. 274)
"By the record...Coster was...a printer and a publisher. He cut blocks and made types, he mixed printing inks, he printed books..." (p. 338)
"...faith fails us when Junius says that Coster printed his book with types of wood. The statement must be put aside as entirely unworthy of belief, for it has been shown that types of wood are impracticable, and that the types of every known edition of the Speculum were made of founded metal." (p. 339)
The oldest document that mentions Coster as a printer is the c. 1550 pedigree (p. 362). The Coster story is a legend without historical evidence. Professionally, Coster seemed to have sold lamp lighting equipment and then ran a tavern. There was a more famous Lourens/Lowreijs possibly confused with Coster, but he also did not appear to be a printer.​
Coster’s Speculum Humnae Salvationis had one-sided prints pasted together.​
PARTIALLY MENTIONED:
“The Speculum Salutis was popular as a manuscript for at least two centuries before the invention of typography.” (p. 264)
In the text from the 1588 book “Batavia by Hardianus Junius or Adrein de Jonghe, "...the edition in Dutch of the Speculum Salutis…the blank sides of the leaf were united by paste…" (p. 330-331)
HOWEVER, “...it has been shown that...the types of every known edition of the Speculum were made of founded metal…” (p. 339)​
A few years after 1423, John Gutenberg partnered with John Faust/Fust and experimented​
A FEW YEARS LATER TRANSLATES TO A FEW DECADES LATER: “...in 1450...Gutenberg...went, as a last resort, to one of the professional money-lenders of Metnz...John Fust.” (p. 416)​
Gutenberg printed the first movable metal type book, a Vulgate Bible.​
NOT CERTAIN, BUT POSSIBLE “It is unfortunate that Gutenberg did not, as was customary with the book-makers of that time, put his name and the date of printing on the book.” (p. 424)​
Gutenberg’s bible was started c. 1450 and completed c. 1460.​
ROUGHLY THE SAME, though INEXACT: “The thoroughness of the workmanship in the books printed by Gutenberg after 1450 is a thoroughness which could have been acquired only by practice.” (pg. 391)
“These [annotation...1461...1460...original binding...waste leaves…], the earliest evidences of date, prove that this edition [the 36-line bible] could not have been printed later than 1459” (p. 414)
“That it [the 36-line bible] was done in 1450, as asserted by Madden, has not been decisively proved…” (p. 414)​
In 1452, Peter Schoffer (Faust’s son in law) actually invented complete cast metal type printing.​
UNCLEAR [Regarding the invention of types] “The evidences in favor of Schoeffer are more plausible, but they are not admitted by the writers who have carefully investigated the documents upon which this pretension is based.” (p. 28)​
Some say a second edition of Mainz bible was printed in cast type.​
AGREE ON CAST TYPES; (NOTE, MAINZ WAS MENTZ) “Typography, in which the subject is printed from a combination of moveable metal types cast in high relief.” (p. 18)
“Although…practical types can be made only by casting, many popular books repeat the old story that the first typographic books were printed with types which had been cut by hand out of wood or metal.” (p. 53)
“Cut types were as impractical in the infancy of the art as they are now. There is no trustworthy evidence that they were ever used for any purpose other than that of experiment.” (pp. 53-54)
"Gutenberg's fame as a great printer is more justly based on his two editions in folio of the Holy Bible in Latin...one...of 42 lines, in types of Paragon body...the other...of 36 lines, in types of Double-pica body...It is not certainly knonw which was printed first...The Bible of 36 lines was definitely described for the first time by the bibliographer Schwartz, who, in 1728, discovered a copy in the library of a monastery near Mentz." (pp.410-411)​
Gutenberg and Faust’s relationship dissolved.​
AGREE: “It was fully understood by the three conspirators that Gutenberg could make no proper defense; it was determined that he should be expelled from his place in the partnership and that Schoeffer should succeed him in the management of the printing office.” (p. 430)​
Gutenberg could not repay Faust for capital advanced by Faust.​
AGREE: “On the sixth day of November, 1455, Fust brought a suit for the recovery of the money advanced to Gutenberg. As Gutenberg was unable to pay the demand, we may suppose that the Bible had not been completed, or, had not met with a ready sale.” (p. 425)​
Faust took all of the printing tooling.​
MOSTLY AGREE: “Fust won the suit...took possession of all the materials made by Gutenberg for the common profit, and removed them to his own house.” (p. 430)​
Faust printed many bibles to imitate manuscripts in style.​
UNCLEAR: “The first book published by Fust, after his separation from Gutenberg, was the Psalter of 1457...It is obviously an imitation not only of the copyist’s but of the illuminator’s work upon a fine manuscript. It was intended that the book should show the full capacity of the newly discovered art...To the young reader who is accustomed to the...style of modern printing, the boldness and blackness of the stately types of this Psalter...the brightness...the graceful forms...are really bewildering. They lead him to the belief that the book is of the highest order...called the perfection of printing.” (p. 452)
“In 1462 Schoeffer printed a new edition of the Latin Bible...It is the first bible with printed date...Schoeffer’s change...to Round Gothic was not happy, for the new face is inferior in design and execution.” (p. 462)​
Faust tried selling printed bibles in Paris as manuscripts, at a lower price.​
NOT EQUIVALENT: “...Fust took the unsold Bibles to Paris, where he believed they would find a more generous appreciation” (p. 465)
“Eager to prevent the threatened rivalry of Jenson, Fust appeared in Paris, in 1462, with copies of the Bible…” (p. 466)​
Faust was denounced for his magically similar, numerous, inexpensive bibles. Faust was asserted to have been the devil. Faust had to reveal his methods to the Paris parliament, and was not further prosecuted.​
DISAGREE: “So far from being persecuted in Paris, Fust was received with high consideration, not only by the king, but by the leading men of the city. He was encouraged to establish in Paris a store for the sale of his books, and to repeat his visit.” (p. 466)
“The fable, not yet weeded out of treatises on printing, that Fust was arrested in Paris for selling bibles, supposed to have been manufactured at the instigation of the devil, has served to foster the error.” (p. 416)
“These Bibles have been the occasion of an incredible legend which was first told by one John Walchius. It would not deserve repition here if it had not so often appeared in modern literature. He says that Fust offered one copy of this Bible to the king for sixty crowns, and another copy to the archbishop for fifty crowns. To tempt indifferent puchasers, he abated his price until it was but forty crowns, a price so small and so insufficient as to excite the greatest wonder...As it was clearly impossible that any copyist could write so many books with this precision, it was obvious that Fust was in league with the Devil...we are told that...Fust was arrested, and thrown in prison, from which he was not released until he had revealed the secret. The absurdity of the story is transparent. Bernard has shown that it rests on no valid authority.” (p. 466)​
A 1457 Psalter came from Faust and Schoffer.​
AGREE WITH NOTE: “...consider the date of 1457 in the imprint of the Psalter. If Schoeffer planned and printed the book, he did all the work in the twenty-one months following Gutenberg’s expulsion from the partnership. This is an unreasonable proposition, for the book should have been in press or in preparation as long as the Bible of 42 lines. It is quite probable that the Psalter was planned and left incomplete by Gutenberg. The types, which are like those of Gutenberg’s Bible, are unlike any types subsequently made by Schoeffer”. (pp. 459-560)​
The 1457 Psalter’s colophon announced the invention.​
AGREE: "...Fust and Schoeffer had boasted, in an imprint to the Psalter of 1457, of their skill as printers." (p. 436)
"The colophon...attached to this book says: This book of Psalms...has been thus made by the masterly invention of printing and also of type-making, without the writing of a pen, and is consummated to the service of God, through the industry of Johan Fust, citizen of Mentz, and Peter Schoeffer of Gernszheim, in the year of our Lord 1457, on the eve of the Asumption [August 14]." (p. 459)​
The 1465, Faust and Schoffer printed De Officiis (Cicero).​
AGREE: “In 1465...In the same year as printed by Fust and Schoeffer an edition of the Office of Cicero…” (pp. 466-467)​
Sweynheym and Paunartz were pupils of the school of Faust and Schoffer.​
(N/A; not seen as clearly addressed)​
Sweynheym and Paunartz went to Italy.​
SIMILAR: “This is the order in which printing was established in Italy: Sweinheym & Pannartz...1465 (Subiaco), 1467 (Rome)” (p. 500)​
Sweynheym and Paunartz printed Donatus (grammar) and Lactantius in Rome.​
SIMILAR: “1465...In this year...Sweinheym and...Pannartz...in the monastery of Subiaco, near Rome, printed an edition of Lactantius…” (p. 467)​
John of Spiral in Venice printed classical authors; Latin authors in 1470.​
SIMILAR: “This is the order in which printing was established in Italy: John de Spira...1469” (p. 500)​
In 1469, printing got to Paris; 1474, England; 1475, Spain.​
SIMILAR: “Paris...Ulrich Gering, et al...1469” (p. 505)
“The first book printed in English, the Recuyell of the Historyes of Troye...does not contain the date of printing, or the name and place of the printer...When and where it was printed is a vexed question.” (p. 507)
“Caxton...1474...Cologne...William Caxton...In 1477...was ‘in the Abbey of Westminster, by London’ and then and there he published the Dictes and the Sayings of Philosophers.” (pp. 507-508)
“Barcelona...N. Spindeler...1473 or 1478...Valencia...Cordova and Palomar...1474” (p. 507)​
Feudalism ended as an intellectual movement took off.​
SIMILAR, BUT BE CAREFUL WITH IMPLIED DIRECTION OF CAUSES: “During this period of intellectual darkness, which lasted from the fifth until the fifteenth century, a period sometimes described, and not improperly, as the dark ages, there was no need for any improvement in the old method of making books. The world was not ready for typography. The invention waited for readers more than it did for types; the multitude of book-buyers upon which its success depended has to be created. Books were needed as well as readers.” (p. 45)
“The need for peace and personal liberty as preparations for the introduction of printing maybe more clearly perceived in a glance at the social condition of the people.” (p. 179)​
 
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Is there metadata readily available that would verify the provenance of these books?
Metadata what the hell is that?
The books of the encyclopedia are here in the physical reality. What on earth do you think I am reading from!
The printing book is I know is sat there in front of referent. A fact he will confirm for himself.
Naturally you are neither here with me or sat with referent doesn't alter truth one whit?
 
the provenance of these books?
The printing book is I know is sat there in front of referent. A fact he will confirm for himself.

To clarify, the scan of The Invention of Printing that I looked at was linked previously:

The book title The Invention of Printing was found in a digital scan of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, but I also checked just now, and the book title does indeed also appear in the paper edition of the 1911 (as anticipated), which has a provenance of its own, that I will omit for brevity. (In my opinion, the book The Invention of Printing most likely existed around the time period that it was purported to exist, and most likely with the contents as in the digital scan.)
 
Thanks referent. Much appreciated.
It seems to be a confection of truth, half truths and outright lies. Taken together the two books content suggests to me there isnt much known about the origins of printing presses and movable types.

The types do appear to have been cast not cut so that must mean the moulds must have been either cut by hand or the stamp used to indent the mould must have been cut.
The fact the type is essentially a solder means as long as the mould materials melting point is above the cast metals melting point it can also be quite soft so a stamp cut from a harder material could indent the mould time and again to create a master tray in which numerous types of the same character can be cast at once.
If the mould was in two parts, stamped base and gridded back then once cooled the thing could be split and using a grid of pins the cast types could be all pushed out at once or perhaps simply knocked out.

Question is out of all the characters do far mentioned whose skills reveal a knowledge of mettallury, casting and moulding not to mention carving of a hard material in miniature?
 
whose skills reveal a knowledge of mettallury, casting and moulding not to mention carving of a hard material in miniature?
istockphoto-1413572681-612x612.jpg
At first I was like "Huh?" Source

istockphoto-1406039298-612x612.jpg
And then I was like "Ha!" Source

melting-and-casting-with-blow-torch.jpg
A jeweller melting silver. Source

jewelry-designer.jpg
Jewellery designer.
Source
 
View attachment 27190
At first I was like "Huh?" Source

View attachment 27191
And then I was like "Ha!" Source

View attachment 27188
A jeweller melting silver. Source

View attachment 27189
Jewellery designer.
Source
If there is a point to that I don't know what it is.

I agree referent given the sources we have available this investigation isn't going any further.
Just to round it out here is what the encyclopedia says about the press itself.

The early ones were made entirely of wood with an iron screw.

To my mind this places it after the invention of screw cutting.

And in appearance it resembled an ordinary screw press.

To my mind it is just a variation on existing machines. The bit which I feel is the innovation of centring the type and paper under the point of pressure.

The early ones are not attributed to any name at all let alone the ones we have jointly discovered which suggests nothing is known of early presses.

I have enjoyed this joint effort immensely.
 
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The problem we all face is one of knowing.

When we are born we know nothing of a past aka history. At some point after that we get told stories of pasts. Occasionally they are stories of family who are still alive but usually family long dead.
As we trust the family and family stories we, young as we are, transfer that trust to stories from beyond the family which are usually written stories of various pasts.
Likely we question family stories and the family story tellers but when it comes to written stories there is no teller to question.

Then comes an acceptance of the authority of the author of the writers without question and it is this position that endures through time in people who are genuinely interested in history as documented., history as present in the physical world they walk about in and the path through time that has been recorded on paper by people writing about other people.

On occasions people people shake the " do not question" shackle from their mind and once again find that child's urge to find out. A couple of thousand of such people end up here.

Trouble is for a decent amount of these people is as soon as a new plausible emerges in their research they put their don't question shackles on and lose themselves in their new plausible to them history.

Methodology for establishing the veracity of quite literally anything historical simply does not exist. There appears to be no work being done to establish and test one and frankly I am not surprised.
This entire system you and I were born into is one of a ruling hierarchical authority is the only thing that can keep the savage civilised. This system is based entirely in the control of the pasts.

I use the term pasts deliberately as there are a multitude of pasts in operation simultaneously. The system runs all of them. Studies, books, libraries, museums, physical artifacts, structures, processes, what is acceptable, are all under the control of people within the system who pay other people to keep the system as the authority on everything.

At some point prior to my birth I assume there was no written word. I assume this of course as I am not an immortal being and as most of my life is lived without the written word it seems obvious that the spoken word was the follower not the leader.
Therefore assuming that to be the case, prior to writing all history is oral. Stories told to others about a past some of whom in turn take that story and tell it to others in other places adding bits and forgetting bits. These stories endure through time but none of them stay true to the original as they move through time. They cannot unless the version that arrives at the ears of someone who is writing it down has passed from photographic memory to photographic memory and what are the odds for that?

There is no paper that lasts for thousands of years as far as I have been able to establish. It is consumed by many living things, fire obviously takes it out, water weakens and dissolves it, abrasion wears it away, even light degrades paper.
Then there is the inks, pencils, paints used on the paper. They too are subject to degradation by the same agents that degrade the paper.
In short there is no testing methodology to establish longevity of paper nor establish when the marks on the paper were put there. It is just as impossible to date words on clay, stone, wood, metal or any other medium that is claimed as being used as ancient writings.

Thus we end up in a loop of picking what we individually decide is acceptable to us as being most likely a true record of a past and upon that foundation we build our story. Over time our investment in the story becomes so great we go into defending it when someone else questions it, most often questions the veracity of the source.

"We have to start somewhere or we have nothing" and its variations being the most common defence employed.
Why not keep drilling down to find as I did academia holds opinion and speculation within permitted boundaries most high for example?
Don't take my word for it do it yourself.
This process showed me that discussing anything which is held within academia is a waste of effort.
As all history, all pasts appear to be held within academia (by extraction the hierarchical authority) it would appear researching any history sans academia is impossible.

It comes down to accepting that proving the veracity of any written evidence and placing the words in a chronology or time is currently impossible. All that can be said to be true is at some point in time someone wrote about a past.
If on reading the story one roots out the claim(s) within and puts them under scrutiny by using known facts it is one route one I have devised for myself to establish a likelihood of veracity.

There are always claims within the written story. The claim is why the story was written. The act of writing places it in an agreeable to hierarchical authority chronology and is used to craft endless speculation and opinion because the weight of such things is of importance when it comes to authority imposed upon others.

It is truly impossible to establish the veracity of the ancient world. Events and characters slide around on a sea of language changes, translations, word use, definition changes. The claims though remain consistent by comparison and they can be put under scrutiny.

So to round this off.
Perhaps its a good idea for people who add to the discussion on here to preface how they have arrived at the position they have before positing truths because some consensus of historians and archaeologists assume the written word is true.
Perhaps its a good idea to list the sources one used to figure out what they have. To name and post a link to the base document they have found and read and crucially accept as being the best source available.
Perhaps people could take a step back from attacking questions by defending what they believe and reexamine what they believe in light of the question posed.

If nothing else it should knock personality back into its box and once again this place could get back to putting content under scrutiny.

The problem we all face is one of knowing.

When we are born we know nothing of a past aka history. At some point after that we get told stories of pasts. Occasionally they are stories of family who are still alive but usually family long dead.
As we trust the family and family stories we, young as we are, transfer that trust to stories from beyond the family which are usually written stories of various pasts.
Likely we question family stories and the family story tellers but when it comes to written stories there is no teller to question.

Then comes an acceptance of the authority of the author of the writers without question and it is this position that endures through time in people who are genuinely interested in history as documented., history as present in the physical world they walk about in and the path through time that has been recorded on paper by people writing about other people.

On occasions people people shake the " do not question" shackle from their mind and once again find that child's urge to find out. A couple of thousand of such people end up here.

Trouble is for a decent amount of these people is as soon as a new plausible emerges in their research they put their don't question shackles on and lose themselves in their new plausible to them history.

Methodology for establishing the veracity of quite literally anything historical simply does not exist. There appears to be no work being done to establish and test one and frankly I am not surprised.
This entire system you and I were born into is one of a ruling hierarchical authority is the only thing that can keep the savage civilised. This system is based entirely in the control of the pasts.

I use the term pasts deliberately as there are a multitude of pasts in operation simultaneously. The system runs all of them. Studies, books, libraries, museums, physical artifacts, structures, processes, what is acceptable, are all under the control of people within the system who pay other people to keep the system as the authority on everything.

At some point prior to my birth I assume there was no written word. I assume this of course as I am not an immortal being and as most of my life is lived without the written word it seems obvious that the spoken word was the follower not the leader.
Therefore assuming that to be the case, prior to writing all history is oral. Stories told to others about a past some of whom in turn take that story and tell it to others in other places adding bits and forgetting bits. These stories endure through time but none of them stay true to the original as they move through time. They cannot unless the version that arrives at the ears of someone who is writing it down has passed from photographic memory to photographic memory and what are the odds for that?

There is no paper that lasts for thousands of years as far as I have been able to establish. It is consumed by many living things, fire obviously takes it out, water weakens and dissolves it, abrasion wears it away, even light degrades paper.
Then there is the inks, pencils, paints used on the paper. They too are subject to degradation by the same agents that degrade the paper.
In short there is no testing methodology to establish longevity of paper nor establish when the marks on the paper were put there. It is just as impossible to date words on clay, stone, wood, metal or any other medium that is claimed as being used as ancient writings.

Thus we end up in a loop of picking what we individually decide is acceptable to us as being most likely a true record of a past and upon that foundation we build our story. Over time our investment in the story becomes so great we go into defending it when someone else questions it, most often questions the veracity of the source.

"We have to start somewhere or we have nothing" and its variations being the most common defence employed.
Why not keep drilling down to find as I did academia holds opinion and speculation within permitted boundaries most high for example?
Don't take my word for it do it yourself.
This process showed me that discussing anything which is held within academia is a waste of effort.
As all history, all pasts appear to be held within academia (by extraction the hierarchical authority) it would appear researching any history sans academia is impossible.

It comes down to accepting that proving the veracity of any written evidence and placing the words in a chronology or time is currently impossible. All that can be said to be true is at some point in time someone wrote about a past.
If on reading the story one roots out the claim(s) within and puts them under scrutiny by using known facts it is one route one I have devised for myself to establish a likelihood of veracity.

There are always claims within the written story. The claim is why the story was written. The act of writing places it in an agreeable to hierarchical authority chronology and is used to craft endless speculation and opinion because the weight of such things is of importance when it comes to authority imposed upon others.

It is truly impossible to establish the veracity of the ancient world. Events and characters slide around on a sea of language changes, translations, word use, definition changes. The claims though remain consistent by comparison and they can be put under scrutiny.

So to round this off.
Perhaps its a good idea for people who add to the discussion on here to preface how they have arrived at the position they have before positing truths because some consensus of historians and archaeologists assume the written word is true.
Perhaps its a good idea to list the sources one used to figure out what they have. To name and post a link to the base document they have found and read and crucially accept as being the best source available.
Perhaps people could take a step back from attacking questions by defending what they believe and reexamine what they believe in light of the question posed.

If nothing else it should knock personality back into its box and once again this place could get back to putting content under scrutiny.
I see your point and I thank you for writing this. This is the exact reason why I dont like language. I have so much to say about this but I have to figure out how to organize my thoughts with words based on certain common structures when my thoughts do not have structures, grammar, and syntax. Also, the whole point of me writing this is that I want you to believe what im writing.

So far we have:
1. Structures
2. Beliefs

My theory is you cannot convey absolute truth when it is done through a Trust.(involving structures and belief through words)

An absolute truth is one without structrure. A chaos. A means of communication that is directly raw within vibrational "mindspace". Telepathy for example. A synchronistic forced endenture.

With that, I tend to agree with OP point upon historical words, meaning, and interpretation. (Belief)
 
I see your point and I thank you for writing this. This is the exact reason why I dont like language. I have so much to say about this but I have to figure out how to organize my thoughts with words based on certain common structures when my thoughts do not have structures, grammar, and syntax. Also, the whole point of me writing this is that I want you to believe what im writing.

So far we have:
1. Structures
2. Beliefs

My theory is you cannot convey absolute truth when it is done through a Trust.(involving structures and belief through words)

An absolute truth is one without structrure. A chaos. A means of communication that is directly raw within vibrational "mindspace". Telepathy for example. A synchronistic forced endenture.

With that, I tend to agree with OP point upon historical words, meaning, and interpretation. (Belief)
I think it is worth distinguishing between objective (the world we appear to exist in) and subjective (the inner world), and between 'truth' (facts, occurrences) and 'Truth' (nature of reality).

My view is that we can't know Truth. We can occasionally know some truths. We have more luck in knowing lies.
 
Objective reality = truth
Subjective reality = guessing about objective.
 
Objective reality = truth
Subjective reality = guessing about objective.
I disagree.

Objective reality = knowing, verifiable
Subjective reality = experience

What is truth? For me, truth is what's left when you've got rid of the lies. And that applies objectively and subjectively.

I think we live in (at least) 2 worlds at the same time - everything can be explained objectively and subjectively.
 
I disagree.

Objective reality = knowing, verifiable
Subjective reality = experience

What is truth? For me, truth is what's left when you've got rid of the lies. And that applies objectively and subjectively.

I think we live in (at least) 2 worlds at the same time - everything can be explained objectively and subjectively.
Objective doesn't need explaining. It is what it is.
Truth doesn't need explaining. It is what it is.
Explaining is speculation.
Agreement with that is neither sought nor needed.
 
Objective doesn't need explaining. It is what it is.
Truth doesn't need explaining. It is what it is.
Explaining is speculation.
Agreement with that is neither sought nor needed.
Ah, but whose truth? And truth does need context, and in some cases explanations of how it fits inside of its theme. I think that nothing is as simple and clear-cut as you might believe.
 
Ah, but whose truth? And truth does need context, and in some cases explanations of how it fits inside of its theme. I think that nothing is as simple and clear-cut as you might believe.
The truth is what it is. It doesn't belong to anybody, it doesn't need anybody to prove it.
I know that.
 
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Explaining is speculation.
Words are mostly useless and don't work as we hope, but if you are inclined to try to communicate with them, it is worth trying to agree terms.

"Explaining is speculation" doesn't mean much to me as its - I'm happy to try to understand more - feel free to lay it out a bit more.
 
"Explaining is speculation" doesn't mean much to me as its - I'm happy to try to understand more - feel free to lay it out a bit more.
I cannot put it any simpler than those three words.
 
I'll throw my thoughts in too.

I tend to think one has nothing but his own discernment to really use. Like how will people 1000 years from now look at the history of 9/11? Will it still be the mainstream narrative? How many (conspiracy) theories will remain at that point in time? There are a lot of them. Really it’s almost pointless to study history at all as it seems to me that it all reads like a sci-fi/fantasy novel. I enjoy it though and I especially like reading all the different threads on this site.
 
I tend to think one has nothing but his own discernment to really use. Like how will people 1000 years from now look at the history of 9/11? Will it still be the mainstream narrative? How many (conspiracy) theories will remain at that point in time? There are a lot of them. Really it’s almost pointless to study history at all as it seems to me that it all reads like a sci-fi/fantasy novel. I enjoy it though and I especially like reading all the different threads on this site.

I concur that mainstream history largely exists to prop up the (fake) reasoning of contemporary events, especially the geopolitical narrative.

but, since this forum is called “Stolen History”, I think people here(well, some of them) are hoping to discover some lost technology, or ‘actual’ history that would illuminate us as to the origin of humanity
 
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