Rome - Money - Land Enclosure

I won't go on and on about this, but no - I really am against forcible extraction of wealth from another. And it is pretty amazing to me that most people are not, and will even call it "good"!!
Nothing wrong with your view.
But if you live in any community, you're expected to make a contribution.
Let's imagine a village where there's no tax. Obviously to make things work, you'd need to work together with the citizens on mutual projects for the common good. Either by providing your muscle, or helping to raise funds.
Imagine one guy doesn't contribute and caters to his own. Obviously, he won't get help on a rainy day. Also, if he uses services which he refused to contribute for, he might be expelled from that village.

The difference today is like I said, no transparency, and your contribution goes to things irrelevant to your well being.
You distinguish between 'bandits' and 'government'. For me in essence they are the same thing.
Of course they are the same.
The distinguishing is in the manner of execution, not essence.

The difference to me is that government is worse - it attempts to train its citizens to believe that it is a force for good (with great success), where in reality it is just the biggest, worst bandit. The very worst people govern us and placidly most seem to accept it and even want more! Government is happy to take those who can play the game - the more duplicitous they are, the more they draw people in, the better they can lie to your face, the better they do.
You'd be surprised that bandits do the very same when they get comfortable in their territory. Known example is Pablo Escobar.
Bandits thrive in government "vacccums" and begin to provide their 'subjects' with forms of social service, education and financial aid. The locals do not care they're sponsored by drug money. They worship the local crime boss for saving them and filling in the role of government.
Anyway, if you have to choose between bandits and government, I think bandits are preferable. There is no illusion that they are moral - if you are brave enough, you can choose to arm yourself and take action against them without much hesitation. You stand little chance of freedom once the banditry has grown to governmental proportions.
Bandits very much try to sustain a moral image, and convince their subjects of it.
They also tend to be more religious and attend religious services. They often play this card, showing the government as godless bastards while they are the godloving, down to earth people loving leaders.

Taxes are immoral. But you are trying to tell me its ok to force people to give their money to an entity that will then use the money to exert even more force and control. How can that ever be right? It is not a free choice. In most places, we are told there did not used to be any income tax - well, that's changed - we all pay now. And right now, afaik, we are building a technocratic governance control grid, that will micromanage resources to individuals.
I didn't say it's ok.
I feel you're looking it narrowly from where you live, and what you're getting for your taxation. The circumstances can be different around the world.
Tax is not good or evil. It is a mechanism that exists. Whether it's good or bad is up to the people who are supposed to benefit from it.

By the way, many ordinary people in many countries do not pay tax.
You will find these for example in India, East Europe, Southeast Asia.
Most Arab towns in Israel do not pay taxes and the government does not even try to make them. Are they poor? Far from it.
Go visit there, enjoy the sewers running in the street, the unevacuated trash and broken roads. Food is great though.
They as a community do not know how to use their money for common good, so that's what you get. I'm sure there are others, elsewhere, who could pull it off without taxation, but here's my point, most communities would rather have their tax sorting out these things for them.

In India there's no proper tax collection in many provinces. They remain the poorest ones and the government has no interest to invest resources there.
In Ukraine, a modern country, anyone can easily avoid taxation. But I saw there many people choosing to pay tax, definitely not out of brainwash, but because they wanted certain perks that derive from it.


We can see the direction of travel. And - in principle, from what you say - you're cheering this on. The legal system, as well as the religious, education, entertainment, etc, systems, - all are in service to the governance agenda. If you are happy to play the provided game that's fine - you go get yours, why not? But really all that's going on is that you are supporting the growth of a system that seeks yours and everyone's enslavement. It sounds like you would be happy if you pay less taxes by some tax wheeze, ie being clever/doing well within the rat run that is created for you, but I think you fail to realise that you are 'within', and helping the system, its laws, its money, its authority.

I know exactly where I am, and I'm past the phase of labeling it good and evil to cope with it. Understanding the system does not mean supporting it, so don't put me in such boxes.
Unfortunately in this world many people become rich by smartly maneuvering this system, its laws and taxes. They understand this is a dog eat dog world, and you're under the control of those institutions as long as you live in their lands. I will not experience peak happiness by doing that. I'm just saying what is happening, not what is right and wrong. If you want magical solutions to the world order grip over your life, I'm not the address :)
 
How did you establish this statement to be true?

The statement 'Nobody in medieval England used money' is obviously false, because you would only have to establish that one single individual in medieval England used money and that falsifies the statement. I'm surprised I need to point that out to an Olympic-level pedant like yourself ;)

Karl Popper - often described as the greatest philosopher of the 20th century. Most of his life's work was devoted to establishing what could and could not be defined using words. He made the primary distinction between faith-based statements such as 'God exists' or 'God does not exist,' both of which cannot be proven and the choice is entirely subjective to believe or not; and statements like 'If I heat water to 100 degrees celsius, it will start to boil,' which can be demonstrated and repeated.

Your problem is you are unable to distinguish between these two classes of statement.

I assert that there is no such thing as an objective reality. The 'Objective reality' beloved of Science is in fact entirely a creation of the human mind, just like Atoms.

Go ahead and prove that there exists an objective, measurable reality.
 
The statement 'Nobody in medieval England used money' is obviously false, because you would only have to establish that one single individual in medieval England used money and that falsifies the statement. I'm surprised I need to point that out to an Olympic-level pedant like yourself ;)

Karl Popper - often described as the greatest philosopher of the 20th century. Most of his life's work was devoted to establishing what could and could not be defined using words. He made the primary distinction between faith-based statements such as 'God exists' or 'God does not exist,' both of which cannot be proven and the choice is entirely subjective to believe or not; and statements like 'If I heat water to 100 degrees celsius, it will start to boil,' which can be demonstrated and repeated.

Your problem is you are unable to distinguish between these two classes of statement.

I assert that there is no such thing as an objective reality. The 'Objective reality' beloved of Science is in fact entirely a creation of the human mind, just like Atoms.

Go ahead and prove that there exists an objective, measurable reality.
So yet again I ask someone a question and they act all offended.
Quite quite sad.

So the statement you made by your own admission is false but nevertheless you speculate on and on on top of the falsehood.

In Poppers world nothing exists and everything we think is experience is actually just the subjective nature of the mind of the observer. Objective is reduced to mere fantasy an imagining of the subjective mind.

I have no idea how anyone can prove what went on twenty minutes ago let alone hundreds of years ago.
No methodology has ever been crafted by the mind of man and the majority of people are happy to speculate within the speculation of others who write books or papers on their speculation.
 
So yet again I ask someone a question and they act all offended.
Quite quite sad.

So the statement you made by your own admission is false but nevertheless you speculate on and on on top of the falsehood.

In Poppers world nothing exists and everything we think is experience is actually just the subjective nature of the mind of the observer. Objective is reduced to mere fantasy an imagining of the subjective mind.

I have no idea how anyone can prove what went on twenty minutes ago let alone hundreds of years ago.
No methodology has ever been crafted by the mind of man and the majority of people are happy to speculate within the speculation of others who write books or papers on their speculation.

I'm not offended.

You are making statements about Popper's world on the basis of never having read any of his books. Is that ok to do that?

Apparently you are now agreeing that everything is speculation, having spent all day attacking people for doing exactly that.

The statement I made is logically false, however everyone else on this thread has successfully understood what I meant by it in context with the rest of what I wrote.

This thread is about how the indigenous people of the UK and North America were systematically dispossessed of their lands at the same time, and how money was used to achieve this. Do you have anything constructive to add?
 
I'm not offended.

You are making statements about Popper's world on the basis of never having read any of his books. Is that ok to do that?

Apparently you are now agreeing that everything is speculation, having spent all day attacking people for doing exactly that.

The statement I made is logically false, however everyone else on this thread has successfully understood what I meant by it in context with the rest of what I wrote.

This thread is about how the indigenous people of the UK and North America were systematically dispossessed of their lands at the same time, and how money was used to achieve this. Do you have anything constructive to add?
Attacking?
Since when was asking for evidence of method or process or what the claimant has done to question the veracity of someone else's theory turn into an attack?

You answered my question perfectly. You haven't tested the theory. I get it.
 
"I don't have a lot of concrete facts to add, but I will share some general thoughts about this:

It's not state vs. state, but basically state vs. individual freedom. The Romans probably invented the concept of the nation state, at least I think so. Looking at the Ottoman Empire, it almost looks like the Ottomans simply copied the Roman concept of centralized power, but failed because they weren't as evil.

There is no point in taxes, armies, etc., except for centralized power and control. The driving force behind this is the desire to destroy the individual, and the human spirit. Power and control comes from evil, which tries to absorb human energy.

The end-result of a world where evil controls everything absolutely, is the end of life itself, channelling all energy to the top. I think we are transitioning to the last phase of evil - they will gain almost absolute power for a couple generations, but never completely, and then it will all crumble."

Worldviews before Roman times or Mesopotamia were highly coerced just like these two and others. It wasn't until say the 1700's with the Enlightenment, true explanation (physics, chemistry etc.), probably due to less religion coercion and perhaps more money in the scientific class and science patronage. Maybe there is a connection with land enclosure and the Enlightenment.
 
Michael Hudson is a mainstream economic historian who has written a series of books about money in the ancient world. The conspiracy researcher Joseph P. Farrell writes about money. I also learned a lot from reading the extensive commentary of an anonymous monetary historian who goes by the name Mefobills at Unz.com. His comment history is well worth reading in its entirety. The Unz Review He describes how barley was the first money and that credit and debt precede what we think of as "money". Ancient city-states each issued their own sovereign currency in the following way. Citizens deposited grain at the temple. In return credit was extended to them using various stand-ins for the value of the grain, bronze disks or wooden tally sticks for example. These stand-ins for value were then exchanged among the population as currency. It was a closed system and the temple was able to both introduce credit exceeding the quantity of grain when necessary as well as forgive debt when it threatened the proper functioning of society.
Firstly, let me say that I really enjoy your contributions @Frostychud . Secondly, I'm not attacking your views but I am skeptical about this story/these stories that you touch on in your post.

Hudson (whom I remember seeing on the Keiser Report on RT, years ago) and mefobills (who is new to me, but I have read a few of his recent comments) are both interesting characters. They really do seem to be addressing and evaluating the geopolitics of our time. I think you could add James Corbett, Jay Dyer to that group too - they too look into the geopolitical situation and provide interesting alternative analysis, that seems closer to the truth. The issue I have nowadays, is that I don't, or rather can't, accept the geopolitics we are shown as real, whether it is curated for me by the mainstream or the alternative media.

Eg, if it is true (as Professor Anthony Sutton has said) that the Germans were given the ability to create synthetic oil from coal, that their tank engines were made by Ford, etc - was World War 2 what we were told? The geopolitic realists above, take the wars as true, and perhaps see conspiracy between this and that actor, but that broadly speaking they agree that there was a real war. However could it be that these were actually choreographed events? Yes soldiers were moving about, and yes there were horrific and vivid films after the event, but could it be that the actual 'war' was not as portrayed?

What about nuclear bombs, are these real? Why in Hiroshima were the wooden telegraph poles not razed to the ground by the mighty explosion? Is the Ukraine war real, and are we prodding the grouchy Russian bear there? And what about 911 - was that a real event? Was it terrorists, or special agents? Or were the towers a huge prop prepared 28+ years and theatrical made-for-television movie? And covid... are viruses real? And space? What exactly is actually real around here? How can we "know"? Do we know what 'knowing' means?

The thing is, that I now think it is all theatre of the mind. It is not actually necessary to go to war, have terrorists or viruses or any of it. In fact, you will find you have very little personal evidence of any of these and many other claims - only what you are shown on TV. You know and said elsewhere that in your experience that what the unconscious is shown, it believes. So, is it that you and I are too far away from the real action - and that its perfectly understandable that we would not get the opportunity to verify these stories? Or is it, as I think, as outrageous as it might seem, the reason these stories are impossible to personally verify is because there is no truth to them - they are just narrative arcs, presented on TV, cartoons, books, etc. Its all just narrative arcs, designed to capture the mind.

Here is an older thread of mine that hints at how some of the trickery could be done:
Real architecture but an old stage?
and another:
Meta history - Who provides the data?

Here is a great show on the BBC apparently from 1968:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYAke_z3RVU

And this is an excellent movie that also illustrates what may be going on:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpAdOi1Vo5s
 
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It just came to mind that the English word 'fortune' supposedly derived from Latin 'fortuna' has its own meaning indicating wealth, contrary to Italian 'fortuna' which has that meaning only in sentences like 'fare fortuna', making wealth, and always just meaning 'luck' when on its own.
Is it possible that the native British population immediately associated this new foreign word with money? All of this presuming the linguistic theories are correct and this word was not part of the English vocabulary from the start.
 
It just came to mind that the English word 'fortune' supposedly derived from Latin 'fortuna' has its own meaning indicating wealth, contrary to Italian 'fortuna' which has that meaning only in sentences like 'fare fortuna', making wealth, and always just meaning 'luck' when on its own.
Is it possible that the native British population immediately associated this new foreign word with money? All of this presuming the linguistic theories are correct and this word was not part of the English vocabulary from the start.
When i get my head round an English Welsh dictionary specifically how the word breaks down, I'll post the results here.
Could be For or fort and tune or une is what comes immediately to mind.
 
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When i get my head round an English Welsh dictionary specificall how the word breaks down, i'llpost the results here.
Could be For or fort and tune or une is what comes immediately to mind.
Btw, assuming the original inhabitants were 'Gauls-Britons-Trojans-WHATEVER' (not going to discuss that here cause I fear retaliations, lol), then the English/Angles came after those guys and the Romans, but then this means that the word 'fortuna' was taken by the Brits and inherited by the Angles, otherwise the only other explanation (my fav) is that they took the word from the Normans.
I remember having read in one of Kd's old threads, where he posted an English book from the 17th or 18th century, that the Normans actually introduced various Latin words in Britain, which is the usual Roman/Norman paradox that I like so much.
 
First of all you have a prejudice towards me and you are explicitely saying here.

Second, it was you calling me misanthrope who went personal, while I only criticized what you were saying and not your peson, and that says much of your person at this point.

Third, I'm criticizing the TOTAL LACK of sources and not the impossible task to provide tablets from Mesopotamia or something like that, so even in this case you are just doing an exibition of rethoric and nothing more.

You are saying it right though. You have no interest in criticizing the historical narratives but are just building on top of them because they seem right to you. And you cannot accept the fact that someone points that to you, which is typical.


Miles Mathis? The Freemason? Ok.
I'm not asking you to follow my orders. I also doubt you are capable of producing something coherent historically wise.
I'm just asking for sources and criticising your blatant propaganda.
As for the second I see it's not something you appreciate, which is comprehensible.
As for the first... am I allowed to ask you for sources in order to verify if your castles in the air have somewhat grounded in reality?


You noted the less important part and still miss the most important. If you can't understand what an original source is then there's some problem with you. I'll try to ask again but at this point it's obvious that you simply have no answer because you don't have the book with you (and probably never had an interest in verfying sources, btw).
I'm talking about the ancient sources from which this narrative was created.
I've underlined it for you so that you can see it better.


You already proved, and now confirming, that you have some kind of malevolence and prejudice towards me. I criticize your method and your blatant propaganda because it is "unfailingly abrasive, aggressive, obnoxious, demanding, and unfriendly to others", and worst thing you don't even realize it. In any case I attacked the message, not the person, which is your specialty since you started with your 'misanthrope' label.

And it's ok. I don't care to be liked, expecially when I have to pass post #10000 with speculations based on absolutely nothing or other people's speculations, in an endless circles of castles in the air. I don't understand what knowledge you guys are thinking to achieve when it's all built on shaky grounds. But that is you, so be it. You are what you are.
As an avid reader of Miles Mathis, can you point me to evidence he is a Freemason?
 
History is written by the winners of collectivism, and can't be trusted.

"Fixing" history only changes the narrative, and changes the collectivists in charge.

The only real and lasting solution is to break free from collectivism all together, and to become inner directed instead.
 
History is written by the winners of collectivism, and can't be trusted.

"Fixing" history only changes the narrative, and changes the collectivists in charge.

The only real and lasting solution is to break free from collectivism all together, and to become inner directed instead.
Why are you posting on a forum called 'stolenhistory' if all history is false and nothing can be trusted?

Here to propose some cancel history judeo-american thingy?
 
I have a suspicion that the history of money is the thread that, when pulled upon, will unravel a lot of other mysteries.

Michael Hudson is a mainstream economic historian who has written a series of books about money in the ancient world. The conspiracy researcher Joseph P. Farrell writes about money. I also learned a lot from reading the extensive commentary of an anonymous monetary historian who goes by the name Mefobills at Unz.com. His comment history is well worth reading in its entirety. The Unz Review He describes how barley was the first money and that credit and debt precede what we think of as "money". Ancient city-states each issued their own sovereign currency in the following way. Citizens deposited grain at the temple. In return credit was extended to them using various stand-ins for the value of the grain, bronze disks or wooden tally sticks for example. These stand-ins for value were then exchanged among the population as currency. It was a closed system and the temple was able to both introduce credit exceeding the quantity of grain when necessary as well as forgive debt when it threatened the proper functioning of society.

Metal coins came much later and disrupted everything. My understanding is the following. Metal coins had no "home" the way sovereign currencies did. They were freely circulating and could not be "redeemed" anywhere. Both Mefobills and Joseph Farrell underline the way that stateless merchants (Jews for Mefobills, Venetians for Farrell) cleverly used freely-circulating metal currency, falsely seen as possessing value "in itself", to speculatively pit one city-state's sovereign currency against another's. Gold and silver were alternately made artificially scarce (by hoarding) and artificially abundant in order to raise and lower the exchange rate on the real sovereign currencies issued by city-states and convertible into real wealth, allowing coin owners to subvert and capture previously self-contained economies. The crucial "problem" with metal coinage was that debts enumerated in precious metal could not be released by an act of the Temple or king since such money was intrinsically extraterritorial. This is the origin of the situation in which we find ourselves today, in which the black magick of compound interest has created an absurd predicament in which the total amount of debt on the books is far greater than the total amount of "money" on Earth, yet there is no mechanism by which the impossible, unpayable debts can be forgiven. In ancient Mesopotamia, kings would simply jubilee such debt and start over. The bankers know this of course and they know it is a problem. I suspect this is one of the reasons they are so desperate to set up a world government RIGHT NOW. Only a world government would have the power to jubilee debt in any significant way. Now, to be clear, I do not think these people have good intentions just because debt forgiveness is one of their platforms. I think that their fantasy is to put all the old debt in a pile, light it on fire, and start fresh with a new sovereign currency based on the old city-state model. Only this time, since the sovereign currency they introduce (a CBDC) will be global and "outsideless", there will be no threat of a freely circulating stateless currency undermining it. I believe they intend for this currency to be the Final Form of Money and once it is rolled out, credit for regular people will become a historical artifact. The world will be locked once and for all in a fixed caste system. It is tempting to see sovereign currency as "good" and freely-circulating currency as "bad", since the current economic pickle we are in has been caused by the unchecked proliferation of the latter, but I think we need to be careful here. There are at least two kinds of totalitarianisms out there. There is the old-fashioned tyranny of the Annunaki who ruled the city-states and issued sovereign currency, and the more "sophisticated" and less visible tyranny of the hidden money manipulators. The former ("Enlil") will always be interested in controlling and micromanaging the lives of their citizens. They may imagine themselves to be "benevolent tyrants", but freedom is impossible under such a system. The latter ("Enki") will on the contrary encourage freedom and license, knowing that social atomization only accelerates the invisible mechanism that will sooner or later transfer all of the real resources into their pockets, at which point they can move on to the next country. The former is Gentile Totalitarianism, also known as Fascism, and the latter is Jewish Totalitarianism, which always has a new name. A lot of people who are aware of the destructive power of the second form of totalitarianism, today in the ascendant, are nostalgic for the first system. I think this is a terrible error. Yes, Hitler broke the usury mechanism, but his goal was not to liberate Germans, it was to recreate the old sovereign money system in which the Party functioned as the God-King who decided what the common good was. The so-called MEFO bills issued by the National Socialist government were a return to sovereign money. The new money worked. However...you couldn't quit your job in Nazi Germany. Trade unions were abolished. The state told you what job they wanted you to do and you had to obey. The role of the citizen was to work for the common good. This sounds maybe nice in theory, but in practice it always means that someone else gets to decide what is good for the collective. In the case of Nazi Germany, for example, it meant that the state might come by in a Gaswagen and kill your handicapped kids while you're at work. It meant that the freak Albert Speer got to decide what Berlin would look like. Had the Nazis won the war, the entire city would have been razed and rebuilt to look like this:


Le Corbusier, also a Fascist obsessed with (delusional) fantasies of the "common good", wanted to raze the Right Bank of Paris and replace it with this:


I have lived in Germany. When I first arrived I was enthusiastic about the sense of collective responsibility that is still present there, especially concerning money. With time, however, I came to loathe it. The collective moral conscience has a shadow side. People police each other. If you break the rules, people feel justified in letting you know. This becomes dangerous when the rules themselves become immoral. The problem is that the "healthy" desire to be moral and responsible is weaker than the perverse desire to masochistically submit to rules and sadistically enforce them on others. The latter will always win. In France, the corona rules were enforced by sick, sadistic cops and bureaucrats and followed by citizens out of fear and base conformity, mostly. In Germany, there was no need for cops. The citizens were overjoyed at this exciting new opportunity to shame each other and masochistically prove their subservience to the Common Good. If the French were simple bourgeois cowards, the Germans were enthusiastic snitches who self-brainwashed into Believing that they were saving the world. I do not trust individuals or organizations who claim to work for the common good, because perverts will always target and subvert such institutions.

These are the dangers of Gentile Totalitarianism, or to be more precise, Territorial Totalitarianism (as opposed to Deterritorialized Totalitarianism). There is a funny throwaway line in Orwell's "Down and Out in London in Paris" in which a colorful White Russian emigre working in a restaurant tells Orwell to "Trust a snake before a Jew, and a Jew before a Greek, but never trust an Armenian". At the time, Jews, Greeks, and Armenians all functioned as more or less stateless merchant mafias. Today Jews appear to have run the table and largely cornered the niche, but the niche is not "Jewish" in essence. It is an immanent consequence of the existence of multiple territorial states. In a world in which there are multiple states, it is a simple logical inevitability, from a purely game theory point of view, that a non-territorial financial entity will sooner or later arise and "rediscover" the same old tricks for undermining and subverting territorial power. Some group functioning as "Jews" will always arise because the existence of competing territorial states demands the existence of a kind of "financial aether" or rather a financial pseudo-ether that articulates the isolated territories via some form of nomadic money.

We see it happening still today. Russia and China are Territorial Totalitarianisms. They fancy themselves as eternal. In these countries no criticism of power is permitted. The State is pompous. The leaders are always in danger of floating off into the narcissistic delusion that their fantasy of what is good for the people is what is actually good for the people. Some of the time, of course, they really do help the people. They favor religions and social structures that are stable and conservative. The role of the citizen in these nations is to serve as a pseudopod of the state and make children who will also be pseudopods of the state.

The United States, NATO, etc., on the other hand, are Deterritorialized Totalitarianisms. Under such a system the individual has much more freedom but the end result always seems to be a breakdown of civilization and a descent into perversion and chaos. Highly intelligent people often chafe under the rigid social structures that average citizens need. They desire freedom, independence, forbidden knowledge, and sexual liberty and they imagine themselves capable of dealing with the dangerous consequences in a way that average people are not. Hence the spontaneous "Judeophilia" of intellectuals throughout history. Joseph Farrell remarks that it is only after freely circulating coins began to "invade" the previously self-contained city-states of Greece in the "6th century BC" that what we call philosophy emerged. The metal money that had no home and could be exchanged for anything was the first avatar for a primordial substance supporting visible reality. It must have been an exciting time. Descartes is the modern philosopher who is credited with inventing the "transcendental subject" which might be described as a free-floating universal subjectivity independent of any territorial markers. I think it is no coincidence that he lived in Amsterdam, the city in which Jews invented modern capitalism (they took it to England after that, more below) with its promise of limitless pleasure and the escape from rigid social and class structures that so many brilliant people desire. Here is what Descartes wrote to his friend Balzac (not the writer) in 1631:

You must excuse my enthusiasm if I invite you to choose Amsterdam for your retreat, and to prefer it not only to the monasteries of the Franciscans and the Carthusians that many good folk retire to, but also to the finest houses in France and Italy, and even to the famous Hermitage where you spent the past year. No matter how polished a country house may be, it always lacks countless conveniences that are found only in towns, and even the solitude one hopes to find there turns out never to be quite perfect. There, I agree, you’ll find a stream that would make the greatest talkers start day-dreaming, and a valley so secluded that it could make them ecstatic; but it can easily happen that you also have neighbours who will bother you at times, and their visits will be even more of a nuisance than the ones you receive in Paris. In this large town where I live [Amsterdam], by contrast, everyone but myself is engaged in trade, and thus is so focused on his own profit that I could live here all my life without ever being noticed by anyone. I take a walk each day amid the bustle of the crowd, with as much freedom and repose as you could get in your avenues, and I don’t attend to the people I see, any more than I would to the trees in your woods or the animals grazing there.

Descartes can perhaps be forgiven for not understanding that the prosperity he saw around him was the result of a speculative bubble, and that all bubbles pop sooner or later. My guess is that the smarter people in the deterritorialized camp see that the current debt scam, which is the first global debt scam, must therefore also be the last debt scam, since there is no longer anywhere else to flee. There is no more "elsewhere" and a deterritorialized state needs a constant supply of untapped elsewheres to parasitize if it wishes to continue functioning. I believe this is the key to understanding the Covid and Ukraine charades. The stateless mafia wants to go territorial. They want to go "legit". They see that their only hope for survival is jumping horses. They are running the United States, or more precisely the dollar, into the ground one final time, in one final debt binge, to impoverish everyone on Earth once and for all, at which point all debt will be jubileed and the global control grid will be rolled out. It will be an old-school territorial control grid. Consumerism will disappear. Russia and China are scripted to "win" this staged conflict. The BIS is fully on-board with the transition. I guess that the problem is that there are just too many people with too much money and power out there who want the deterritorial debt system to continue just a while longer.
I was recently re-reading the Protocols and I found a few extracts that confirm some of the arguments I presented earlier.

From Chapter 21:

To what I reported to you at the last meeting I shall now add a detailed explanation of internal loans. Of foreign loans I shall say nothing more, because they have fed us with the national moneys of the goyim, but for our State there will be no foreigners, that is, nothing external.

This is in line with my contention that the fundamental dynamic here is dialectical. A territorial currency is attacked by a deterritorialized currency. The ultimate synthesis of the two is an outsideless global system.

By good luck the subjects of the goy governments, knowing nothing about financial affairs, have always preferred losses on exchange and diminution of interest to the risk of new investments of their moneys, and have thereby many a time enabled these governments to throw off their shoulders a debit of several millions. Nowadays, with external loans, these tricks cannot be played by the goyim for they know that we shall demand all our moneys back.

This is a little vague, but illustrates the basic principle.

In other words, when the currency is limited to a circumscribed territory, debt can be forgiven by the issuing sovereign when it threatens the common good. But when the money is borrowed in an outside currency, the sovereign is powerless and beholden to those who control the value of that money.

Industrial papers will be bought also by the government which from being as now a payer of tribute by loan operations will be transformed into a lender of money at a profit. This measure will stop the stagnation of money, parasitic profits and idleness, all of which were useful for us among the goyim so long as they were independent but are not desirable under our rule.

and

Our accounts, which we shall present when the time comes, in the light of centuries of experience gained by experiments made by us on the goy States, will be distinguished by clearness and definiteness and will show at a glance to all men the advantage of our innovations. They will put an end to those abuses to which we owe our mastery over the goyim, but which cannot be allowed in our kingdom.

The Protocols, therefore, describe a two-step process. Step one, attack the local kingdoms with a deterritorial currency (metal money, for example). This money acts for all intents and purposes as a form of self-directed, algorithmic AI which has been programmed to hollow out any economic ecosystem into which it has been introduced with very little supervision needed. Step two, once all independent kingdoms have been enslaved in this way, go back to a sovereign currency. Only this time it cannot be attacked from the outside, since there IS no more outside. Hence the absolute necessity to "enclose the globe", which is exactly what we are seeing today with the technological control grid. This grid is being set up in order to erase once and for all anything resembling an "outside". Once the grid is finished, I suspect a CBDC will be introduced that will resemble the original sovereign currencies. We will then have the worst of both worlds. In any case, this is explicitly what the Protocols suggests. When the new system is rolled out, I believe it will be fronted by people who present themselves as being opposed to "International Finance". They will preach a return to "old values". They may even be openly anti-semitic. I believe Russia and China occupy this function today and are being groomed to lead the scripted turn towards a new territorial currency. This will be a big fat deception and a trap to lure in those who naively assume that the money wizards desire to continue their current style of predation indefinitely. They do not as they explicitly state. They want to consolidate their power. The usury strategy was never anything but a means to an end, the final enclosure of all of humanity. It is my opinion that the 20th century's attempts to artificially recreate organic, self-contained territorial systems, from Nazism to Zionism, were destined to fail as the original organic communities these movements attempted to emulate did not originally have to contend with deterritorial money pouring in from the outside. As a consequence, these artificial movements had to be equipped with "defense systems" in the form of internal totalitarian control mechanisms. But these very internal control mechanisms defeated the purpose of the return to territorialism, which was to recapture something of the original freedom and beauty of life in an organic community.

To return to the original theme, seen from this light, the gradual enclosure of the commons in England (for example) could be seen rather as a re-enclosure, a different kind of enclosure, a more micromanaged enclosure. I once worked in a private firm that was bought out by an international hedge fund. The first thing they did was replace the original management style (in which the head of the company allowed his employees a large degree of autonomy) with a finer-grained micromanagement style complete with digital surveillance. In other words, where the original "open enclosure" allowed a certain degree of internal circulation based on trust, the new system of smaller enclosures found a way to redirect all productivity outside of the original circle and to an extraterritorial entity.

ADDED: Perhaps logic can help us reconstruct history where documentation fails, or at least orient us a little. The idea occurs to me that the idyllic organic communities of the 17th and 18th centuries here evoked by Quiahuitl and Dreamtime are in themselves evidence of a reset or cataclysm just prior. It would appear to me that systems inherently tend towards enclosure and centralization. The process is not purely linear, of course, but as the population increases and technology advances, it would seem to be a logical necessity. I argued above that movements like Zionism or National Socialism were doomed to failure because the original organic communities they were attempting to copy existed in a different universe, namely, one in which the outside was still natural, wild, and uncolonized. This suggests that the communities of the period discussed here, in which a man only had to work fifteen hours a week to support a family, in which there were no nomadic Jewish, Roman, or Phoenician raiders pushing metal money and legal systems, were not the result of centuries and millennia of civilization, but on the contrary the happy consequence of a recent wipeout of civilization with its inherent drive towards centralization and exploitation. Following this logic, such communities would be as fragile as freshly bloomed flowers. It is only a matter of time before they are invaded and corrupted, at which point there is no going back. Perhaps one could even argue that there is only a brief "sweet spot" after humanity has pulled itself together enough to escape post-cataclysmic subsistence living but before it has once again grown sophisticated enough to tend towards centralization. This is a depressing idea because it would seem that the only way to get back to this state would be (1) another cataclysm and (2) a long slog through the immediate recovery period, at which point the flower would already begin fading. I will add an anecdote. I was in New Orleans right after Hurricane Katrina. There was a brief period following the disaster where nothing worked and no one had any idea what was happening, where things were going, or who was in charge. The electricity was out in most of the city. The level of destruction was staggering. The city was almost entirely empty. I rode my bicycle through previously no-go ghetto areas for hours without seeing more than a few people. Doors were left wide open. Boats were stranded in the streets. There weren't even any birds. It was dead quiet. I could have just walked into any house I wanted to and taken anything I found. Wooden houses had been picked up and floated by the water, then dropped back down on top of cars. Everything was covered in dried mud. I think this was the happiest I have ever been in my life. I know that many people, including personal acquaintances, lost everything, including their lives. Still, I cannot forget the incredible feeling of freedom that dominated in those few weeks. It was as if some invisible control system had truly been deactivated for a short time. It would have been indecent to mention it in public, of course, out of respect for others who did not have the luxury of enjoying the cataclysm as an aesthetic experience. But I wonder how many people felt the same way I did. It helped that in those years I was a young man with no property and no attachments. I cannot adequately put into words how exhilarating it was.
 
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Why are you posting on a forum called 'stolenhistory' if all history is false and nothing can be trusted?
It seems to me that he's posting on a forum called 'stolen history' because because he realizes that the minute you examine the metadata of history, the 'official narrative' totally and completely falls apart. Just about every single time.
 
Loads of crap (the fasceeees-nazeeeees part) mixed with some few good intuitions.

In any case, regarding the more historical part, sources are what is lacking in this supposedly well researched theory. I'm not going to buy books, expecially if all the crappy part is also part of them, so I would like to know what books (sources) are these deductions based upon. To be more specific: what ancient sources were studied to deduct all these theories.


the amount of propaganda flying as facts in today's information warfare is saturating all attempts at honest communication.
the fact that propagandists love to use whole ethnic groups as scapegoats is a good way to spot them; most of them do not even know they are acting as propaganda-spreaders, since they have been so well trained to hate.

speaking of money, how come the supposed looser of ww2, dictates economic policy to the whole of europe?
how did they keep their territory anyways?
how can the looser of a war the looser started, has the capacity to dictate terms of contract for other nations?

and yet, we have people going on and on and on about the juice LOL!!!!!!!!
It seems to me that he's posting on a forum called 'stolen history' because because he realizes that the minute you examine the metadata of history, the 'official narrative' totally and completely falls apart. Just about every single time.

english is not my mother tongue, but the question flew over your head.
if nothing can be trusted as historical fact, there cannot be a stolen history, there would be no history at all.
 
english is not my mother tongue, but the question flew over your head.
if nothing can be trusted as historical fact, there cannot be a stolen history, there would be no history at all.
There was no question, there was a statement. And I replied to the statement - Nothing *that is written in the history books can be trusted". That does not mean that there is nothing that can be trusted as historical fact. There is information available outside the 'traditional historical narrative', and a large portion of it does not support that narrative.
 
This might not be the thread, but there is also the 'Ruined Landscape' or 'Lost Eden theory' argues that "human action resulted in a cumulative degradation and desertification of Mediterranean landscapes". I found no evidence for this during my research - a lot of pollen samples taken from crater lakes (said to date back 1000s to 100000s of years ago) found a decline that their C14 dating dated to the Roman empire as a sign of Roman deforestation.

I was told by a Roman arts and architecture lecturer the coin was political spin by the Romans so that they'd know the face of the emperor no matter where in the empire they were. I'm annoyed at myself for not remembering who she ascribed this idea to.
 
The most alarming fact about this forum and the people populating it is that something which has to be proved is taken as granted without proof and new narratives are built upon it without any kind of consideration towards sources of any kind.
It is called "larping" and for me it is totally understandably as to why people do it. They just want answers. And they want to be part of something meaningful.
I respect it to some degree, because it creates dreams. And for me there is no reality without dreams.
 
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