Through England on a Side Saddle in the Time of William and Mary

[Deleted member 1432]

The bankers who create accounts of numbers. The same people who installed Dutch William.

If you have any sources for that I'd be very interested to see them. Thanking you in anticipation.

 

[tsaritsa]

If you have any sources for that I'd be very interested to see them. Thanking you in anticipation.

According to wiki who push the official narrative:

After the Parliamentary elections of 1690, William began to favour the Tories, led by Danby and Nottingham.[105] While the Tories favoured preserving the king's prerogatives, William found them unaccommodating when he asked Parliament to support his continuing war with France.[106] As a result, William began to prefer the Whig faction known as the Junto.[107] The Whig government was responsible for the creation of the Bank of England following the example of the Bank of Amsterdam. William's decision to grant the Royal Charter in 1694 to the Bank of England, a private institution owned by bankers, is his most relevant economic legacy.[108] It laid the financial foundation of the English take-over of the central role of the Dutch Republic and Bank of Amsterdam in global commerce in the 18th century.

Also he was supposedly dutch. They had the east india company who kind of did what they wanted after the hansa dispersed. And i think you discussed their operations in english harbours before? Seems like the only possible way of this story happening is that they installed him. (Complete with the lack of symbology on his wiki pictures. These all came later to all royal houses simultaniously but that us another thread.)

 

[Jd755]

If you have any sources for that I'd be very interested to see them. Thanking you in anticipation.

Back about ten to fifteen years ago when I went down the fmotl rabbit hole a memory was triggered from grammar school history days of the early seventies. Back then goldsmiths were mentioned as being the bankers of the royalists.
These goldsmiths were only touched on to the extent we were told and read about how their power was devolved from royalty and they came to control royalty by advancing and withholding funding or credit might have been the word used not funding.. Cannot be sure either way.

Well the fmotl journey brought goldsmiths to the fore again as exploiters of the sweat equity of people. Daft terminology aside the goldsmiths basically sought control of metals deemed to be precious, gold and silver, to make life better for themselves and bugger everyone else.
The fmotl stuff also mentioned these men invented credit and debit as the physical metal was too scarce as people who had it were reluctant to use it as it held a store of value which is easily hidden and easily recognised. Fungible is word that comes to mind.
Its also easy to lose easy to steal in small amounts and very difficult to move or store in large amounts.
No gold in Fort Knox so too speak.

What the goldsmiths did in or around Charles the firsts time was dream up or invent a less fraught, less risky way to have a better control on their interests whatever they were so invented credit and debit.
Basically a paper record of a precious metal laid with them for safe keeping. The paper record was proof of claim to use more fmotl parlance.
Once it became obvious the paper record itself held the true financial value in the same way the store receipt is the true store of financial value because no goods can be returned for cash or credit without one, the need to move the metal disappeared.

I didn't go into any more depth as Jews and Freemasons came into the picture and I cannot be arsed trying to unravel the jew, Freemason, Jesuit trinity one third of which many believe is behind everything contemporary and historical so I switched off.

So nothing to link you too I'm afraid.

Point I was making was if there were men foisting William on England the great recoinage was the action of hoovering up small but numerous amounts of precious metals to bring in credit and debt paper which I feel was already used in Continental Europe.

So a group of men were vying for control of this island with its material wealth of resources and the incumbent group already here were resisting them. A hidden war if you will fronted by royalty but taking place in the shadows away from aristocratic scrutiny.
Just my take on it. I haven't looked for evidence for it however the idea of Royals gaining wealth off of the backs of men they subject is one inculcated in us from quite a young age and is plausible so it seems to endure.

Edit to add
All notes as in money are just promissory notes.
Some chaps signature is on them along with his promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of the face value on the note.
Well who determines the face value?
How can he pay the sum of £5 when the £5 is the face value on the note?
Its pure nonsense and it relies on you and I believing that £5 is 5 pounds, is 500 pence, etc and believing the written word pound and spoken word pound describe something tangible.
But such is the world we endure.

Bankers open an account aka make two columns on a piece of paper and insert a number in the debit column. Once your signature has been obtained, never ever before. Your signature is the exact same thing as the gold and silver the goldsmiths were keeping safe for others.

Its rank stupidity and the scam without equal.

Second edit to add
How's this for nonsense?
From here TCH: The Restoration Banker, Edward Backwell

The English Civil War broke out in 1642. The eventual victory of the Parliamentarians led to the English Commonwealth, a period of republican rule in Britain. Backwell’s financial career began in this period; state records show his purchasing large amounts of precious metals brought from abroad. When he and Thomas Vyner purchased metal captured from the Spanish, just the preliminary advance paid to the government in order to secure the opportunity came to £50,000.

What was being used to purchase precious metal with if the precious metal was the thing the coins were made from?

Answers on a postcard to...

Its bonkers, truly bonkers.

Third edit
Have a read through this.
Records of Edward Backwell (c.1618-83), goldsmith banker - Archives Hub

On 6 July 1665 Pepys noted that 'Alderman Backewell is ordered abroad upon some private score with a great sum of money; wherein I was instrumental the other day in shipping him away [to Antwerp]. It seems some of his creditors have taken notice of it, and he was like to be broke yesterday in his absence; Sir G[eorge] Carteret telling me that the King and the kingdom must as good as fall with that man at this time' had the Exchequer not provided support, such was the Crown's dependence on him.

Nothing to see here, move along, move along.

Edit to add, well it is Sunday.

Seems he was a chancer to say the least.
BACKWELL, Edward (c.1618-83), of Exchange Alley, Lombard Street, London. | History of Parliament Online

The contrast between the two articles is marked.

Though his Dutch connections shine through. From the Parliamentary article.

He visited Holland in 1680 ‘in the King’s special service to the States General’, and may have remained there to avoid arrest for debt. In 1682, after Carteret’s death, Backwell’s lands were extended for over £60,000, which he had pledged to the navy in 1667 but had been unable to pay. He died in Holland in 1683, but his body was brought back to England and buried at St. Mary Woolnoth on 16 June.

And in a weird way, to be sure, here is something I found on the parliamentary history site that ties in with Celia's journal.
Celia writes

The house thats Call'd Buxton Hall wch belongs to ye Duke of Devonshire its where the warme bath is and well, its the Largest house in the place tho' not very good; they are all Entertaining houses and its by way of an ordinary-so much a piece for yr dinners and suppers and so much for our Servants besides; all ye ale and wine is to be paid-besides, the beer they allow at the meales is so bad yt very Little Can be dranke

You pay not for yr bed roome and truely the other is so unreasonable a price and ye Lodgings so bad, 2 beds in a Roome some 3 beds and 4 in one roome, so that if you have not Company Enough of your own to fill a Room they will be ready to put others into the same Chamber, and sometymes they are so Crowded that three must Lye in a bed

And from the Parliamentary History we see why she endured such conditions.

He quarrelled with a courtier named Colepeper and was provoked into striking him in Whitehall, for which he was sentenced to pay a fine of £30,000

His father feared that his late hours in town might destroy him, and complained that he could not obtain a clear list of his debts, though he was in danger of arrest.

Always in debt these aristocratic types.

And to give another link to Dutch William on the same page is this.

He signed the invitation to William of Orange, and took a prominent part in the Revolution.

 

[Deleted member 1432]

Thanks for that. The reason I asked was to add information to a series of articles that Felix wrote some years ago - The Betrayal of Albion. They covered the whole Cromwell / William and Ann period amongst others. Any information you have that implies Charles I or Charles II were also funded by the same Dutch source as Cromwell (Manasseh Ben Israel) would represent a major twist in the plot.

In theory there shouldn't have been any Jews in England during Charles I's time as they had all been evicted back in 1290, but there were crypto-Jews and others who operated through Christian front men. As the church had made usury illegal for Christians centuries before then it wouldn't be surprising if any of the English monarchy went to Holland for their loans. However, a specific link to Manasseh Ben Israel would thicken the plot immeasurably.

“All the wars and rebellions fought from 1640 to 1689 were fomented by the International money-lenders for the purpose of putting themselves in position to control British politics and economy. Their first objective was to obtain permission to institute a Bank of England and consolidate and secure the debts Britain owed them for loans made to her to fight the wars they instigated. History shows how they completed their plans." Source: “Pawns in the Game”, William Guy Carr.

Incidentally, when William invaded, John Churchill immediately deserted to his side along with his English army forces. Many others followed suit. "Because of his military genius, and his services to Britain, he was created the first Duke of Marlborough... In 1701 the Duke of Marlborough was made Commander-in-chief of the armed forces of Holland. No less an authority than the Jewish Encyclopedia records the fact that for his many services The Duke of Marlborough received not less than £6,000 a year from the Dutch Jewish banker, Solomon Medina." (ibid)

John Churchill is the direct ancestor of Sir Winston Churchill.

 

[Jd755]

Any information you have that implies Charles I or Charles II were also funded by the same Dutch source as Cromwell (Manasseh Ben Israel) would represent a major twist in the plot.

Any names on the death warrant of Charles Isponsors leap out?
https://www.parliament.uk/globalassets/documents/parliamentary-archives/deathwarrantmemo66.pdf

PLEASE reply here Goldsmiths, bankers and kings.
Thank you.

 

[Jd755]

At last back on the journey.

Here she is talking about travelling from Pontefract to grab a bit of marble.

We went 3 mile off in the afternoone to heare another yt was in a meeteing and so 3 mile home againe. Ye hills about ye town and all about ye town is rocks of ye finest marble of all sorts-huge Rock. I took some of it and shewing it to severall they think it Comparable to any beyond sea.

Just think of all the marble artifacts given the Roman label knocking about on these islands. How do these archaeologists and historians decide something is Roman. Would it not make more sense for the marble items to have been made here by the native people living here?

Thence to Buxton 9 mile over those Craggy hills Whose Bowells are full of mines of all kinds off Black and white and veined Marbles, and some have mines of Copper, others tinn and Leaden mines, in wch is a great deale of silver.

Once again showing that this island has a unique set of natural mineral resources few other places can equal. Its the proximity of the resources that to my mind which makes it unique.

I have some wch Looks full of silver, its so bright just brought up out of one of ye mines. They digg down their mines Like a well for one man to be let down wth a Rope and pulley, and so when they find oar they keep digging under ground to follow the oar wch lies amongst the stone yt Lookes like our fine stones

Oar become ore!

In yt mine I saw there was 3 or 4 at work and all let down thro' ye well; they digg sometymes a great way before they Come to oar.

A description of miners following a seam of ore.

There is also a sort of stuff they dig out mixt wth ye oar and all about the hills they Call Sparr, it looks like Crystal or white sugar Candy, its pretty hard; ye doctors use it in medicine for the Collick; its smooth like glass but it looks all in Crack's all over.

I wonder who discovered spar was good as medicine?

They Wall round the Wells to ye mines to Secure their Mold'ring in upon them, they Generally Look very pale and yellow that work Underground, they are fforc'd to keep Lights wth them and sometymes are forced to use Gunpowder to break ye stones, and yt is sometymes Hazardous to the people and destroys them at ye work.

Nothing too dangerous then.

The house thats Call'd Buxton Hall wch belongs to ye Duke of Devonshire its where the warme bath is and well, its the Largest house in the place tho' not very good; they are all Entertaining houses and its by way of an ordinary-so much a piece for yr dinners and suppers and so much for our Servants besides; all ye ale and wine is to be paid-besides, the beer they allow at the meales is so bad yt very Little Can be dranke.

You pay not for yr bed roome and truely the other is so unreasonable a price and ye Lodgings so bad, 2 beds in a Roome some 3 beds and 4 in one roome, so that if you have not Company Enough of your own to fill a Room they will be ready to put others into the same Chamber, and sometymes they are so Crowded that three must Lye in a bed

Few people stay above two or three nights its so Inconvenient. We staid two nights by reason one of our Company was ill, but it was sore against our Wills for there is no peace nor quiet with one Company and another going into the bath or Coming out; that makes so many strive to be in this house because the bath is in it.

Sounds like fun. The Buxton waters must have had one helluva reputation for folk of means to endure such hardships. I kind of get how the Dukes of Devonshire made some of their fortune.

Another wonder is that of Pooles hole, thats just at ye towns End, a Large Cavity under ground of a Great Length. Just at the Entrance you must Creep, but presently you stand upright, its Roofe being- very Lofty all arched in the Rocks and sound with a great Ecchoe. Ye Rocks are Continually droping water all about, you pass over Loose stones and Craggy Rocks. The dripping of the water wears impression on ye Stones that forms them into Severall Shapes, there is one Looks Like a Lyon wth a Crown on his head, ye water trickling on it weares it into so many shapes; another place Lookes just Like ye shape of a Large organ wth ye severall Keys and pipes one above another as you see in a great Cathedrall; there is also a Stone wch Looks white and in shape Like a salted flitch of Bacon wch hangs down from the Roofe of ye Arch wch is very Lofty in this place. There is another Rock Looks like a Chaire of State wth ye Canopy and all glistring like diamonds or starrs; thus does all ye sides of the Rock all shine Like Diamonds. Ye Rocks are very Large and Craggy and Indented, some Looks like ye outsides of Cockle shells, others are smooth all Caused I believe from ye dripping of ye Water. I was as farre as ye Queen of Scotts pillar, wch is a Large white stone, and ye top hangs over your head Like a Cannopy all great white Stones and in spires or Large jceickles and glistring as the other. They may go farther but I had no such Curiosity, I had ye Light Carry'd that shewed me to St Anns Needle after wch is only sand. This white stone is very Like Chrystall of wch there is a stone Like a Bason or Large ffont wherein drops Continually ye water wch runns over and trickling down does as it were Candy in jceickles and points, under wch is a pillar of this white stone. We had some broken off which Looks like ye jnsides of oystershells or mother of pearle, some Looks like alabaster. As I went I Clamber'd over the top of all ye stones and as I Came back I pass'd under severall of ye arches Like bridges; they are both wayes full of Loose stones and the water dropping makes them slippery, it being also very uneven by reason of ye Craggs.

I've never been in it but if anyone has please could they confirm or contrast Celia's description?

How it should Come none Can give any good acco; its Call'd Pooles hole from a man of that name that was a Robber and use to secure himself in yt place like a house, and so ye Country people imagined he made it, but some think it was dug to find mines or marble or Chrystal because ye mettle mines are full of stone as I sd before; only this Enters in ye side whereas the mines they make now are as a well perpendicular for severall yards before it spreads, and yt not till they Come to find metal, but ye difficulty appears as to this hole how so large a Cavity should be Left, as in some places ye Roofe is as lofty as you can see and all stone; now how it should be fixt so as not to tumble in by ye weight of ye Earth or stone on ye top: as to ye waters dropping yt is but what is Customary among rocks and stones, there are many springs wch run in ye veines of ye Earth and allwayes are running in such subteraneus vaults in the Earth, wch gather together and runns in a little Channell in ye bottom of this Cave as you may step one.

So a historical mystery even in Celia's day. I wonder how much between then and now is pure fancy.

The fifth wonder is Mamtour wch is a high hill that Looks Exactly round, but on the side next Castleton wch is a Little town in the High Peake on that side its all broken that it Looks just in resemblance as a great Hay-Ricke yts Cut down one halfe on one side-that describes it most naturall. This is all sand, and on that broken side the sand keeps trickling down allwayes Especially when there is the Least wind of wch I believe this Country scarce Ever is wth out; many places of the hill Looks hollow and Loose wch makes it very dangerous to ascend and none does attempt it, ye sand being Loose slips ye foote back againe.

Never been there either sounds intriguing so if anyone has been there do share.

The 6th wonder is at Casleton 4 mile from Elderhole; its a town Lyes at ye foote of an Exceeding steep hill wch Could not be descended by foote or horse, but in a Compass and yt by ye Roads returning to and agen on ye side of ye hill at Least 4 tymes before we Could gaine ye bottom or top of sd H ill.

This is wch they Call the Devills Arse a peake, the hill on one End jutting out in two parts and joyns in one at ye top, this part or Cleft between you Enter a great Cave wch is very Large, and severall poor Little houses in it built of Stone and thatch'd Like Little Styes, one seemed a Little bigger in which a Gentleman Liv'd and his wife yt was worth above 100? a year wch he left to his brother, Chooseing rather Like a hermite to Live in this sorry Cell.
Arse is now considered a profanity or slang term not a descriptive on.

I blame the Victorians

In this Country they burn all this tyme of ye year July, their ffern and make ye ashes up in balls and so keep to make Lye for driveing their Ruck of Cloth's wch whitens them much.

She is referring to the area around Woolsely in Staffordshire here.

The minster is a stately structure but old, ye outside has been finely Carv'd and full of Images as appears by the nitches and pedistalls wch remaine very Close all over the walls, and still just at ye front remaines some Statues of ye Kings of Jerusalem and some angels and Cherubims. At ye door is a Large statue of King Charles ye Second, and all about ye door is fine Carving of flowers Leaves, birds and beasts and some saints and apostles statues.
She is describing the minster at Lichfield now.

At ye door is a Large statue of King Charles ye Second, and all about ye door is fine Carving of flowers Leaves, birds and beasts and some saints and apostles statues. The Inside of ye Church is very neate being new but there is but Little painting; there are two Quires, one old one wth organs and seates, ye other new wch is very Large wth Organs and fine Carving in ye wood; here are 2 organs.

Two organs. This shows the connection between sound and structure in the use of religion is nothing new.

 

[Jd755]

Coventry stands on the side of a pretty high hill and as you approach it from the adjacent hill you have the full prospect. The spire and steeple of one of the Churches is very high and is thought the third highest in England. In the same Church yard stands another large Church wch is something unusuall two such great Churches together; their towers and the Rest of ye Churches and high buildings make the town appear very fine, the streetes are broad and very well pitch'd wth small stone.

Unusual indeed though noting it Celia doesn't elaborate or speculate. Perhaps she didn't know nor bother that much.

The Cross is noted and ye finest building in England for such a thing, and in my phancy it very much resembles ye picture of ye tower of Babel, its all stone Carv'd very Curiously, and there are 4 divisions Each being less than another to ye top, and so its Piramidy forme.

In Each partition is severall nitches for statues quite round it where are kings and queens, and just on Each side before Each statute is their arms and ye arms of England and the arms of ye town, and so its adorn'd wth Coullours and gilding in their proper places as in the garments and Crowns or Coronets, and finely Carv'd wth angels and Cherubims and all sorts of beasts, Birds' flowers in garlands, and Leaves-this in Every division; there is variety quite up to the top wch is finely Carv'd and Gilt

I wonder precisely what picture she is referring to.

There is a water house at the End of ye town wch from springs does supply by pipes ye whole town wth water in ye manner that London is.

Interesting both London and Coventry with piped water infrastructure installed and working in 1697.

There is also a water wch serves severall mills yt belong to the town; it seems to be a thriveing good trading town and is very Rich.

They have a great publick stock belonging to ye Corporation above 3 thousand pound a year for publick schooles, Charity and ye maintenance of their severall publick Expences, of their Magistrates and Companyes, the majority of the heads are now in ye sober men, so its Esteem'd a ffanatick town, and there is Indeed the largest Chapple and ye greatest number of people I have ever seen of ye Presbiterian way.

There is another meeteing place in ye town of ye Independants wch is nott so bigg, but tho' they may differ in some small things, in ye maine they agree and seeme to Love one another wch was no small sattisfaction to me, Charity and Love to ye brethren being ye Characteristicall marke of Christs true Disciples.

Social and religious commentary there and an insight into Celia's affiliations.

Coventry has one thing remains Remarkable not to be omitted, the statue of a man Looking out of a window wth his Eyes out, and is a monument as history tells us of some priviledges obtein'd by a Lady wife, to the nobleman who was lord of ye town, and she was to purchase them by passing on horse back through ye town naked wch he thought she would not do, but out of zeale to relieve ye town from some hard bondage she did, and Commanded all windows and doores to be shutt and none to appear in the streete on pain of death wch was obey'd by all; but one man would open a window and Looke out and for his impudence had this judgment on him to be struck blind; this statute is his resemblance and one day in a year they Remember ye good Lady by some rejoyceing.

A familiar tale. Predating 1697 I presume.

The town of Warwick by means of a sad fire about 4 or 5 years since yt Laid ye greatest part in ashes, its most now new built, wch is wth brick and Coyn'd wth stone and ye windows ye same.

A fire in a town of buildings built of wood packed close together in streets. Whatever next satellites equipped with directed energy weapons?

There still remaines some few houses of ye old town wch are all built of stone. Ye streetes are very handsome and ye buildings Regular and fine, not very Lofty being Limited by act of partliamt to such a pitch and size to build ye town.

Well stone is reluctant to burn. Interesting Parliament was involved in the rebuild.

Ye ruines of ye Church still remaines, ye repairing of which is ye next worke design'd; Ye Chancell stands still in wch was all the fine monuments yt were preserv'd from the fire

There you go wood burns stone doesn't.

Here she is talking about Warwick Castle

Warwick Castle is a stately building, its now the Lord Brooke's house.

At ye Entrance of ye first Court ye porter diverts you wth a history of Guy Earle of Warwick, there is his walking staff 9 foote long and ye staff of a Gyant wch he kill'd thats 12 ffoote long; his sword, Helmet and shield and breast and back all of a prodigious size, as is his wives jron slippers and also his horses armour and the pottage-pott for his supper-it was a yard over the top; there is also the bones of severall Beasts he kill'd, the Rib of ye Dun-Cow as bigg as halfe a great Cart Wheele:

Those who fancy giants were actual living beings could do worse than research the hell out of Guy Earle of Warwick as the dead gyantes pottage pot is a yard across. Which is one quarter the length of his staff so it has to be genuine as modern pots to walking sticks ratios testify.

there is also his will Cut out on stone, but ye letters are much defaced; these are the storyes and meer ffiction, for the true history of Guy was that he was but a Little man in stature tho' great in mind and valour, which tradition describes to posterity by being a Gyante.

Oh well. Nine feet staff wielded by a little man in stature. Twas fun whilst it lasted.

Such will the account be of our Hero King William the third tho' Little in stature yet Great in atchievements and valour.

Another small man.

Thence to Stony Stratford, so Cross ye river Aven again 12 mile, and Enter Buckinghamshire. At Stony Stratford wch is a little place built of stone they make a great deale of bonelace and so they do all here about, its the manuffactory of this part of ye Country, they sit and worke all along ye streete as thick as Can be.

Aven slides to Avon today. Aven is the welsh or khumric word for river.
Bonelace derives its name from the bobbins made of bone on which the thread is wound.

6 mile to Horwood, thence we pass by a lofty pile of Building Called Salden, a gentlemans house, and by the Rich Mrs Bennets House, Remarkable for Coveteousness wch was ye Cause of her death-her treasures tempted a Butcher to Cut her throate who hangs in Chains just against her house.

Justice.

Thence to Oxborn and Enter Bedfordshire 13 mile. The duke of Bedfords house we saw wch stands in a fine parke full of deer and wood, and some off the trees are kept Cut in works and ye shape of severall beasts.

There are 3 Large Gardens, fine Gravell walks and full of fruite. I Eate a great quantety of ye Red Coralina goosbery wch is a large thin skin'd sweete Goosebery.

The gooseberry variety so called because it came from Carolina or a named for a lady called Carolina?

you pass under an arch into a Cherry garden in the midst of wch stands a figure of stone resembling an old weeder woman used in the garden, and my Lord would have her Effigie wch is done so like and her Clothes so well that at first I tooke it to be a Real Living body.

Must have had 3D printers in 1697.

Thence to St Albans and so we Enter Hartfordshire 12 mile.

The great Church wch is dedicated to St Albans is much out of repaire, I see the places in the pavement that was worn like holes for kneeling by the devotes of ye Religion and his votery's as they tell you, but the whole Church is so worn away that it mourns for some Charitable person to help repaire it.

Don't mention the worn pavement to usselo he may think they were evidence for butchering humans for food.

 

[usselo]

Don't mention the worn pavement to usselo he may think they were evidence for butchering humans for food.

Busy with lynchets at the moment. Keep it coming though - it's fascinating.

 

[Artemisian]

Now then. Apricots are too tender to grow to fruit. most years. over my lifetime. They need heat and long days to ripen properly yet here is Celia in 1697 writing of apricots being grown outside which alludes to a warmer climate than it is today.

Thank you for all the quotes - your book is quite a find!
Celia is talking here about Coleshill House, supposedly built 1660/2 by Sir George Pratt (more flowery, ridiculously detailed his-tory on David Nash Ford’s Royal Berkshire History)- it conveniently burned down in 1952 (a workman's blowtorch this time). It looks like a mud-flood candidate: odd windows on the lower floor and steps up to the door.

Agreed about apricots - I have only ever seen them grown in greenhouses here in England - it is wonderful to think that not so long ago it was warm enough for them to ripen outdoors. Warmer times are indicated by this gold pendant recently discovered in Warwickshire, 2021, attributed to around 1530, decorated with an entwined Tudor rose and a pomegranate bush:

I also came across pomegranate gate-post ornaments at Mapledurham, Oxfordshire. As the owners during the 1600's were Catholics, maybe they were allowed to keep these smoking-gun relics.

The domes an cupolas were built to allow the owner to show off how skilled he was at choosing a place to build his house which afforded greater view than another. The better the placement the greater the status coming from the amount of land seen which is in the ownership of the owner.


This description of black and white marble flooring appears time and again. These days and especially in these forums much is written about black and white floors being masonic symbology but in 1697 they are the fashion status symbol of the day. All the new houses she encounters seem to have had black and white marble floors installed in their halls. The older, lower, buildings seem to have them too but in nowhere near the number of the stone built houses.

I think they could still have been re-purposed - Fashion as an explanation always seems too convenient and self-referential to me. Rooms with old black/white/red tiling often seem quite cool - maybe the material of the tiles themselves had an intrinsic purpose, and wasn’t just aesthetically pleasing and tough.

Interesting that she says the only pictures were over doors and chimneys - it doesn't look like "fireplaces" were a source of heat, as surely that would be the last place they would be hung.

Which suggest Dashwoods are an old family.

Sir Robert Dashwood was the cousin of degenerate Sir Francis Dashwood (Hellfire Caves, Buckinghamshire). Both were created 1st Baronets, and the family seems neck-deep in the opportunistic financial and political rape and pillage of England of the 1600's, acquiring property and land in central south England. Sir Robert's grandson, Sir James, also "built" Kirtlington Park, Oxfordshire.

Celia's almost throwaway remark that "most of the great houses there about are old built", including Sir Robert's, is GOLD. Pretty much confirmation that the parasitic ruling classes have fabricated a version of history that covers up their land grab, and that the buildings they claim to have built are stolen/re-purposed.

The Theater is a Noble Pile of building, its Paved with Black and White Marble, exceeding Large and Lofty, built Round and Supported by its own architecture all stone, noe pillars to support it; itt has windows all round and full of Gallery's ffor the Spectators as well as Disputants when ye acts are at Oxford.

A theatre in the round though Celia doesn't use the term. Black and white marble mentioned again. Its walls being load bearing, from her description, which is evidence of architectural and building know how being used by its architect/builder.
And Acts is the term she uses not actors or actresses or plays.
Acts on stage Acts of Parliament. Are they the same thing. make believe/
I would argue yes, most definitely.

This must be the Sheldonian Theatre:

Nice cupola, with half-windows and the whole area around it is raised five steps. At the back is the Bodleian Library, with a great tunnel network.

No sign of the black and white marble flooring, but looks like a splendid organ at the back. Just what every printing company needs! ;-)
With regard Acts, Parliament used to move around, and was definitely held in Oxford a few times - this looks a likely venue!

Just by it is a little building wch is full of Antiquityes wch have many Curiositys in it of Mettles, Stones, Ambers, Gumms.
This little building, its contets and its location right by the theatre containing a printing press make for very interesting reading.
I suggest Celia is describing what we today call a museum. Wonder when that word was actually invented. She doesn't name the travelling gentleman so perhaps he was not of the aristocracy. Similarly she doesn't name the Prince across the sea, which to my mind refers to a Prince not of Europe.

Right next door to the Sheldonian Theatre is the History of Science Museum - must be this place!

I get confused here. She mentions colledges and chapple as though they are one and the same building.

The colleges in Oxford cover quite large areas, with all sort of buildings, often around a large, flat, square courtyard (they call them Quads), including a lodge at the entrance with iron gates, a dining hall, accommodation halls, and sometimes chapels (usually more church-scale than the more cosy chapel image).

The Courts large, ye buildings large and lofty; in one of the Courts is a tower new built for to hang the Mighty Tom, that bell is of a Large size, so great a Weight they were forced to have engines from London to raise it up to the tower.

And now Courts. If this and the preceding sentence dont show legal, education and religion are in essence the same thing I don't know what does.
Engines brought from London to raise a bell. I can only guess as to what the engines in question were, cranes of some kind or winding drums or windlasses seem most likely but tis but a guess. Thing is the road from Oxford to London must have broad and well pitched enough to allow the wagons carrying the engines to make passage in both directions. Perhaps the engines were disassembled for travel much the same as large cranes of today travel in bits on truck trailers.
I would also guess that the tower itself was the support aka the literal tower of tower crane and the engines provided the lifting power whilst the tower bore the weight of the bell.

Great Tom is the name of the bell in Tom Tower in Christ Church College. Christ Church also has the cathedral that gives Oxford its city status - it's a very grand college. It is on a road called St Aldate's, which leads down to the Thames. I suspect the bell was transported from London on the river.

The Physick garden afforded great diversion and pleasure... these are nice plants and are kept mostly under Glass's, ye aire being too rough for them.

Under glass refers to a greenhouse so it would seem the greenhouse was built prior to the introduction of the Glass Tax in 1696 unless greenhouses were exempted from the tax.

This must be the Botanical Gardens - odd place for a triumphal arch...

The greenhouses still stand, for once not attributed to Sir Joseph Paxton, but admitted to being "over 300 years old":

According to Wikipedia, when "Paxton developed an interest in greenhouses in 1832, ... the use of glass houses was in its infancy". Obviously!

I feel that Oxford is used to house the inventors of history quite frankly.

Totally with you! It's a very, very dark place...

 

[Artemisian]

Celia never mentions fireplace so it was a term unknown to her. Chimney on the other hand gets frequent mention along with mantle and mantle piece. She never mentions iron stoves being within and I for one am certain she would have if they had been there.
Describing what we call chimneys as tunnels is much more accurate. Looking up from inside them reveals them to be tunnels.

The etheric energy stuff doesn't fly I'm afraid. If it were possible you do not need a fixed device built into a house that has to "see the sky" to work.

Chimneys feature in Celia’s description of the Dean’s house in Salisbury, opposite the Cathedral:
there is one dineing roome yt the Chimney is just under a window and the Tunnells runnes upon each side. There is one Chamber, the chimney stands Just by the window opposite to Salsebury, and on the black Marble Chimney piece soe finely polished you may see all the Cathedrall as in a Glass; I have seen it plaine.

As noted, what Celia calls the Chimney is what we would call a fireplace. And what we now call chimneys, were then called Tunnells.

And also at the Lord of Exeter’s house near Stamford (over 200 miles from Exeter!):
over one of the Chimneys is a fine picture of Venus were it not too much uncloth’d.

Mantlepieces are mentioned, too - she says there were “at Least 20 [rooms] that were very Large and Lofty, and most fine Carving in the Mantlepieces, and very fine paint in pictures….” And “on the Mantlepiece under a glass; its nunns work the ffinest Embroidery that it Looks just Like point or the ffinest Linnen you can see; this Cost a great Sume.”

Nothing in the descriptions implies a heat source - if anything, it appears not to be a heat source, as the chimney-breast and mantlepiece are places of choice for displaying unique artworks and peerless craftsmanship. And if it were for heat, then it doesn’t make much sense to place it directly under a window.

The splendidly polished black marble is called the Chimney piece - not the mantelpiece - and maybe the mirror-like marble is inside the “fireplace”?

I wondered about the word “chimney” and it led me off in an unexpected direction. With the Britons being here before the Romans and Anglo-Saxons, is there a hint in the “Celtic” languages? In my old Welsh dictionary from 1861, I found “simnai”, alongside “ffumer” (fire), “ffynetr” (window), and “llumon” (light).

I looked up “simnai” to see if there are any related words listed, and found a different spelling of “simdde”. “Si” in Welsh is pronounced “shi”, and “dd” like ‘th’ in the, that, so the Welsh word sounds like “shimney” or “shimthe”. A group of related words were “sim” (what is flippant or light), “simer” (levity; a frisk), “simera” (to frisk, to dally), and “simp” (a fickle state; a flutter).

Hmmm... reminds me of “shimmer” - to shine with a flickering or wavering state.

And this also reminds me of the phrase my Swedish mother used to use, “kura skymningen” - pronounced “kura shimningen” - I understood it to mean “enjoying the twilight”, as it meant allowing the darkness to fall before lighting a candle or turning on a light.

A search for Swedish words that begin with “skym”, brings up “skymningljus” (dusk), “skymt” (glimpse/flash), “skymma” (conceal), and, intriguingly, “skymundan” (neglected, fallen by the wayside - shim “undone”, so to speak?)

It looks like the Magic Spellers have been working overtime to divide us! I’ve always been suspicious of the off-putting spelling of Welsh - who came up with it?

So, wandering down this odd dusk-lit avenue, I recalled a fascinating passage in Three Books of Occult Philosophy, or of Magick; Written by that Famous Man Henry Cornelius Agrippa, Knight, and Doctore of both Laws, Counsellor to Caesar’s Sacred Majesty, and Judge of the Prerogative Court, translated out of the Latin into the English Tongue by John French. Henry Cornelius is dated 1486?-1535, with the book being published in 1651.

From Chapter VI “Of the wonderfull Natures of Water, Aire, and Winds”:

Aristotle tels of a man, to whom it happened by reason of the weakness of his sight, that the Aire that was near to him, became as it were a Looking-glass to him, and the optick beam did reflect back upon himself, and could not pe∣netrate the Aire, so that whithersoever he went, he thought he saw his own image, with his face towards him, go before him. In like manner, by the artificialness of some certain Look∣ing-glasses, may be produced at a distance in the Aire, beside the Looking-glasses, what images we please; which when ig∣norant men see, they think they see the appearances of spirits, or souls; when indeed they are nothing else but semblances kin to themselves, and without life.

And it is well known, if in a dark place where there is no light but by the coming in of a beam of the Sun somewhere through a litle hole, a white paper, or plain Looking-glass be set up against that light, that there may be seen upon them, whatsoever things are done without, being shined upon by the Sun.

And there is another sleight, or trick yet more wonderfull. If any one shall take images artificially painted, or written letters, and in a clear night set them against the beams of the full Moon, whose resem∣blances being multiplyed in the Aire, and caught upward, and reflected back together with the beams of the Moon, any other man that is privy to the thing, at a long distance sees, reads, and knows them in the very compass, and Circle of the Moon, which Art of declaring secrets is indeed very profitable for Towns, and Cities that are besieged, being a thing which Py∣thagoras long since did often do, and which is not unknown to some in these dayes, I will not except my self.


So tricks of the light were still known to some in 1535! Wow! How fun I now have a picture in my mind of a sort of “Twilight Bark”, as in The 101 Dalmations, by Dodie Smith, but delivered via chimney - perhaps you could call it the Evening News… do you think it could catch on?

 

[Jd755]

Nothing in the descriptions implies a heat source

Why would she bother when she knows what the heat source was as did everyone else. Coal.
She mentions coal numerous times throughout the journal but doesn't mention what it is used for. Does this mean coal was used for unknown purposes or did they just dig it and cart it for the hell of it.

 

[Artemisian]

Why would she bother when she knows what the heat source was as did everyone else. Coal.
She mentions coal numerous times throughout the journal but doesn't mention what it is used for. Does this mean coal was used for unknown purposes or did they just dig it and cart it for the hell of it.

Why hang intricate lace and exquisite paintings above a coal fire? They seem to have used plumbing a lot - maybe the coal was used to heat water which was then pumped where required; I've seen that method used to heat greenhouses, using compost rather than coal. It seems to have been warmer times, in any case - apricots, for example, grown outdoors - so maybe the need for indoor heating wasn't so great.

 

[Jd755]

You cannot know this but i have lived my entire life with a coal fire and the fire its heat, its smoke has never been an issue for anything on the mantle or above the hearth.
The fire is only lit when it is required which here means cold days in winter. My mother and father had it lit much more often than i do and still no problems.
Reason being a properly swept and cared for chimney coupled with a good fresh air flow at fire level meant a clean burn not a smoky burn.
Of course smoke and soot are produced but if the draught is right it all goes up the chimney.

The hot water used to be heated in Celias day right up to my grandmothers day, she died in 1984, in coppers. Large copper bowls put into a hearth over a coal fire or in my grandmothers day a gas fired ring replaced the coal fire and it didnt need a hearth nor a chimney just an open window.


My mothers house was built in 1932 and it had a coal fired range built into the chimney breast. It was made of cast iron and consituted a fire grate enclosed on three sides, a warming oven, a baking/cooking oven and a water jacket or boiler connected to a copper storage cylinder and onward to a set of radiators which acted as a heat sink to stop the open vented system boiling over.
Being all cast iron the range itself acted as a room heater so the actual coal fire grate was small. The majority the heat that it produced was used by the things i described but enough remained to carry the soot and smoke up the chimney as the external walls to the downstairs all had air vents/ bricks to deliver fresh air from the outside to the fire. No pumps required. Hot water floats on cold, cold sinks under hot.

Coal was of course used to heat greenhouses and there is copiuos evidence of essentially bigger versions of what i have just described in horticultural catalogues all over the internet.

You are barking up the wrong tree when thinking fireplaces and chimneys were needed for anything other than a combustible solid material be it coal or wood.

 

[Jd755]

Copied from here so as not to distract from tetrominos finials thread.
Finials and Cavity Resonance

I remember the refutation relying on the fact that coal was being mined at the time of the writing of the journal, and must therefore have always been burned inside houses (instead of safer, more elegant, and less smelly solutions such as hypocausts, and the use of hot water radiators) and that house built in 1920s were built with fireplaces and therefore all houses ever built beforehand must also have used the same primitive heating methods. Not convincing enough for me.

You are reading things that aren't there.
For clarity.
Coal was being mined and collected from the sea in Celia's day therefore it must have been being used for something.
One use that comes to mind is for blacksmithing and smelting. Metals were used in Celia's day so something was heating the metals to red hot for blacksmithing and beyond for ores used in smelting.

Another use would likely be heating air and people, cooking, baking and heating water in the home, inn, pub, coachouse etc as coals heat output is greater than wood and burns for longer.
Its coals once red are excellent for placing in warming pans or metal boxes and provide useful warming of clothes, beds, feet, hands for a long time.

It can also be burnt to produce all manner of coal based products from its gases condensing that are very useful. It can also be burnt for coal gas and let's not forget turned into coke.
And it can boil water to produce steam.

I never said anything about "always" as you well know. Coal fires burn most effectively with a draught as in directed airflow. It burns hotter as evidenced by just sitting and watching a coal fire.
All coal fuelled devices have a pipe or stack in other words a pipe or stack on top of them.

Stove pipe persists as a pipe on top of a stove but chimney has been slid to refer to the stack aka tube aka pipe which sits on top of the fireplace formerly known as a chimney.

The chimney breast and the chimney piece and the chimney stack all endure. Its my guess the chimney of Celia's day is the name given to the entire construction not just the part where the coal/wood is burnt.

A chimney fire where the soot and creosote build up in the stack/pipe catch alight is extinguished by blocking off the draught.
Just to illustrate how vital a strong directed draught is to a coal fuelled device.

Your argument that such things are primitive could not be further from the truth. Badly draughted fires are lethal to life.

As ever I look forwards to your evidence or experience of these unknown purposes of chimneys, as we call them today, prior to their reworking into "primitive" fuels at some time after their original construction.

 

[Artemisian]

Steps are a prominent feature of her descriptions of houses. The specific number seems to be a measure of wealth an or status of the principal resident of the house.

This only makes sense from an occupier's viewpoint, but not for the original builders.

Let's imagine that you are a young, recently-landed member of the gentry, looking to create your stately home. Perhaps you have married your cousin, and are soon expecting the pitter-patter of little webbed feet. Your patron has granted you some land, and all you have to do is build your dream home, setting out your stall as a prominent and wealthy influencer.

Your workmen prepare the ground, and "naturally" start digging a huge hole to build your house in. In due course, they have dug a hole of a couple of feet' depth. This is the optimum depth according to the "Big Number of Steps = Best" theory. With a shallow basement, the number of steps is maximised. It is also economically more sensible - fewer man-hours than digging a deeper hole to indicate a lower social status, and the attendant expense - obviously quicker, and also allows for better ventilation and lighting.

What conceivable reason is there to dig any further? The deeper the hole, the fewer the steps. Did some owner builders, say, Hang On, let's not be too ostentatious and proud! Let us show our humiility and lack of social aspiration by spending a small fortune on dropping our houses over six feet into the ground?

If the "Big Number of Steps = Best" theory was indeed the primary reason for building basements, then it surely provides evidence for the ravages wrought to the mind by generational inbreeding!

 

[Jd755]

This only makes sense from an occupier's viewpoint, but not for the original builders.

Let's imagine that you are a young, recently-landed member of the gentry, looking to create your stately home. Perhaps you have married your cousin, and are soon expecting the pitter-patter of little webbed feet. Your patron has granted you some land, and all you have to do is build your dream home, setting out your stall as a prominent and wealthy influencer.

Your workmen prepare the ground, and "naturally" start digging a huge hole to build your house in. In due course, they have dug a hole of a couple of feet' depth. This is the optimum depth according to the "Big Number of Steps = Best" theory. With a shallow basement, the number of steps is maximised. It is also economically more sensible - fewer man-hours than digging a deeper hole to indicate a lower social status, and the attendant expense - obviously quicker, and also allows for better ventilation and lighting.

What conceivable reason is there to dig any further? The deeper the hole, the fewer the steps. Did some owner builders, say, Hang On, let's not be too ostentatious and proud! Let us show our humiility and lack of social aspiration by spending a small fortune on dropping our houses over six feet into the ground?

If the "Big Number of Steps = Best" theory was indeed the primary reason for building basements, then it surely provides evidence for the ravages wrought to the mind by generational inbreeding!

You link my idea or more truthfully my observation about the number of steps being suggestive of wealth or status of whoever commissioned them to the "size of the basements".
If you truly believe large houses have footings that go down "a couple of feet" then crack on my son crack on.

 

[Artemisian]

You link my idea or more truthfully my observation about the number of steps being suggestive of wealth or status of whoever commissioned them to the "size of the basements".
If you truly believe large houses have footings that go down "a couple of feet" then crack on my son crack on.

1. I had assumed that the steps Celia was constantly banging on about were the prominent steps to the front door from the ground. How are these not are directly related to the depth of the basements?
2. Principle outlined remains the same.

 

[Jd755]

1. Correct. The steps up to the front entrance of the house. The height of the ground floor above the ground surrounding is the key thing not the depth of basement which in my experience can all accommodate humans standing upright and then some.

But I'm waffling clearly so have fun.

Edit to add.
Just had another look at the steps references. Clearly they had some significance to Celia. A significance that doesn't seem to have travelled through time hence my idea about the number equating to a higher or lower status of the owner of the building. Could be way off beam of course.

 

[Deleted member 1432]

The etymology of the word basement according to basement | Etymology of basement by etymonline

"lowest story of a building, wholly or partly underground," 1730, from base (v.) + -ment. also from 1730
base (v.)
1580s, transitive, "make or serve as a foundation for;" by 1841, of arguments, etc., "place (on or upon) a foundation," from base (n.). Related: Based; basing.
-ment
common suffix of Latin origin forming nouns, originally from French and representing Latin -mentum, blah, blah blah,,,
Used with English verb stems from 16c. (for example amazement, betterment, merriment, the last of which also illustrates the habit of turning -y to -i- before this suffix).

This is the house Celia was describing. The engraving is from 1818.
Source​

Coleshill House was a double-pile building, influenced by [Inigo] Jones's Queens House in Greenwich, and combining Italian, French, Dutch and English architectural ideas. It measured approximately 120 by 60 feet (37 m × 18 m), with two main floors of nine bays, above a rusticated basement, and an attic with seven prominent dormer windows and four tall chimney-stacks on each side of the hipped roof. The roof was topped by a flat deck surrounded by a balustrade with a central belvedere cupola. The main floors had equal heights, unlike the Palladian emphasis on the piano nobile. [Piano nobile is the architectural term for the principal floor of a palazzo. This floor contains the main reception and bedrooms of the house.] ...The services on the basement floor included an early example of a servants' hall, so the servants could eat away from the great hall. (ibid.)

"The staircase in Coleshill, completed in 1662, was one of the most beautiful in England"
(ibid.)
​

This staircase was also described by Celia. The height of steps significance would be an indication of the height of the basement and how much space was allotted to the area of the house where all the domestic functions took place. This in turn would be relative to the size of the upper house and its requirements in terms of domestic support. This could be related to status in respect of financial cost.

However, if anyone would rather see all this as mudflood related, then by all means, 'fill yer boots.'

 

[Jd755]

Excellent stuff. Excellent.
Which led me to this article about the house and its history which yet again shows how shit wikiwakipedia really is.
RBH: Description of Coleshill House, Berkshire (Oxfordshire)