SH Archive Who really built Russian Saint Petersburg? Did they dig it out?

[nothingnew]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: nothingnew
Date: 2018-11-14 14:51:28
Reaction Score: 12

I never had to resarch so many old germanic/french/whatever words but this is what i got so far.

Topographic depiction of the new main residence and sea-city S.Petersburg including their first erected fortress
which was built by their Czaar Maj. PETRO ALEXIEWITZ - the *self-sustainer* of the Russians (*for lack of a better word*)

In i703, built on the top of the Baltic Sea on numerous islands on the spring of the Neva-Stream, and been provided with a powerful fleet for entrance in trade and shipping for the Russian Nation.

from: BAPTIST HOMANN in Nürnberg

There are interesting bits everywhere!

"to the far right"
CROHN SCHLOT ( Crohn - Kron - Crown) (Schlot - Schloss - Castle)
6 miles away from S Petersburg,
was built in i704 as a port in the middle of the winter.

Well this seems odd. They were able to build it in the middle of the winter. Must have been in such a hurry. The description says clearly in the middle of the winter (singular). Could such a structure be build in a couple cold months?

Additionally it says Finnläendische Gegend- which means Finnish area. There are also Stockrooms, a Hospital and a big brewery on the island.

At the bottom right corner it says Neva or Neu-Schantz jetzo ruinirt (jetzt runiert - now ruined!) and depicting a ruined star fort (flooded with mud maybe? And why JETZT, why now?
(neu is new and Schanz could be Schanze -entrenchment/earthwork/fieldwork)

Largest Park at the big island fort to the west - Baumluftgarten (tree-air-garden) for the presence of all people.

I find it interesting why the autor had to emphasize its for the use of all people.

Bottom left island says Noch unbewohnte Insel - Island without any inhabitants yet.

I can see lots of stuff there, from Inns directly on the shore, to huge ropewalks, mills etc. Multiple catholic churches, a Finnish/Luth and Russian church. A Elephanthouse? (wo ein schöner Elephant stehet - where a nice elephant stands). Appartments dedicated for the copper and ireonforge. Bookprinting and even a big tower to easier navigate the ships entering the docs. Even the gardeners and artists had their own dedicated appartments.

Holy shite!

 

[KD Archive]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: KorbenDallas
Date: 2018-11-14 15:51:45
Reaction Score: 6

On 16 May 1703, while looking over sparse marshlands... let’s build a city here, said Peter the Great.

@nothingnew, thank you very much for your translation. Well, we either were totally mislead about their infrastructure and level of technological advancement, or the city was already there, and they simply indoctrinated it.

 

[nothingnew]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: nothingnew
Date: 2018-11-14 20:06:52
Reaction Score: 8

No problem. Yet I'm still mind boggled hours later, wondering how they could build a crown castle during one winter.

The thing we mostly underestimate is the number of people that were tortured to death and murdered to achieve this. How many casualties were needed to finish this in a couple months?

Additionally the coloring on the map seems very detailed staying inside the outlines of buildings yet the flag on top of the castle is colored in a weird blue shade and overall does not match the precision of the rest. Why would someone try to hide the fact that the flag was white?

 

[Archive]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: Flyinrod
Date: 2018-11-15 10:28:56
Reaction Score: 5

The town of Nyen, which formed around Nyenschantz, became a wealthy trading center and a capital of Swedish Ingria during the 17th century.
On May 1, 1703, Sweden lost Nyenskans to the Russians when the fortress was taken by Peter the Great during the Ingrian campaign of the Great Northern War. In 1703, Peter decided to found Saint Petersburg, a brand new capital city for the Tsardom of Russia

oh wow, once again the war victorious wanted to tell us what faery tales they wanted....
Its clear, and nowdays academic recognized, that a city was here before 1700..
we can see it was already building of high level of engineering. how really big was Nyenskans hard to tell now, we can only assume it was at Least what we see on some maps... seems only star forts survived
only to built one of those monster star fort it's quite a challenge... (and they are on all continents whit exact same style ...)

This is the location of the old Swedish settlement Nyenskans.
It consisted of a fortified town by the creek now named Ochta.
The province Ingria (Swedish:Ingermanland) belonged to Sweden 1617-1721.
The area was originally populated by fhe finnic-ugric Vots, Ingrians
and during the Swedish rule Finns from Carelia.

On May 1, 1703, Sweden lost Nyenskans to the Russians when the fortress was taken by Peter the Great during the Ingrian campaign of the Great Northern War. The site of Nyenskans and Nyen was reformed by Peter into the new city of Schlötburg, meaning "Neck-town" in German, a reference to the long narrow section of the Neva where it was located, with "Schlöt" corresponding to "(funnel) neck, narrows, chimney". Schlötburg stood in contrast to Shlisselburg ("Key-town"), the new name for Nöteborg at the other end of the Neva River, which Peter believed was the "Key to Ingria".

ah ok ,Shlisselburg=nöteborg=nottoborg on 1698 map lol ill be less stupid now )), on this map they just made appear nottoborg/schlötburg but not nyenskans/st petersburg.

In 2009 archélogue said :

In the next two years all archeological research on the site of the future construction of Okhta Centre in Saint Petersburg may be completed, the director of the archeological expedition in the estuary of River Okhta Pyotr Sorokin said.

He added that within two years of archeological works – presently the biggest in the North West of Russia – they managed to do a lot: discovered ramparts of the fortresses of first and the second Nyenskans, and the ancient Swedish fortress Landscrona, which is older than both the Nyenskans, and still deeper, under a sand layer they found a Neolithic settlement site.

“We have found ceramics, stone tools, and three burial mounds there”, Mr. Sorokin reported and pointed out that the digging area is “in fact the Troy of Saint Petersburg”, where archeologists from Saint Petersburg, Volgograd, Perm and Lithuania are working.

Shit man burial mounds seriously ? mmm

 

[KD Archive]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: KorbenDallas
Date: 2018-11-18 11:52:26
Reaction Score: 7

Below is a 1562 map which, in my opinion, clearly displays a submerged city in the exact same place where Saint Pteresburg gets "founded" almost 150 years later. Our future Saint Petersburg is somehow in the water, which I guess could explain where the city came from, and how it got built so fast.

1562

Russia, Sweden, Finland, Estonia Latvia and Lithuania

Here is c. 1710 or c.1690 (whatever year that makes) map. This one appears to show the city under water, but it assigns it the proper name of Petersburg.

1690-1710

Scandinavia, vel Regna Septentrionalia, Suecia, Dania et Norvegia

Use the city of Viburg for reference

 

[Archive]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: Ice Nine
Date: 2018-11-18 12:28:56
Reaction Score: 5

The second map it looks like Petersberg is on a small island, There is definitely a small odd shaped land mass under the circle signifying where Petersburg is/was.

 

[KD Archive]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: KorbenDallas
Date: 2018-11-18 12:42:21
Reaction Score: 10

Could be slowly coming out of the water, I guess. Here is 1720 with the city where it belongs in 1720, and today's map.

 

[Archive]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: jd755
Date: 2019-01-25 20:02:36
Reaction Score: 1

From here

St.Petersburg Environs

The majority of literary sources begin their description of St. Petersburg's surroundings with the taking of Nienshantz and the year 1703. Even in the best case, only the Oreshek Fortress, the Stolbovo peace treaty, and Prince Aleksandr Nevskij's battle at the mouth of the Izhora river will be mentioned. Here the historians seem unintentionally to forget that when Peter I came to create his window on the West, he arrived not at a deserted swampy shore, but at a place where fortresses had been standing for 500 years prior.

The history of these lands — the Izhorian land in the Vodskaja pjatina (The Novgorod Republic was divided into five administrative divisions, called pjatinas), Ingria, and Ingermanlandia — is full of historical events of the pre-Petrine era. This abundance is amazing for a comparatively small border region. But it was just this border location which turned these places into the grounds for centuries of conflicts between western and eastern civilizations, into a centuries-old battlefield.

Many of the little villages around St. Petersburg are of a much more respectable age than the Northern Capital itself; many have changed names several times. For instance, the village of Korbiselske (indicated on a Swedish map of 1662) is now called Korabsel'ki (near the state farm "Bugry"). And Irinovka — the village after which Russia's first narrow gauge railway was named — had changed its name several times over the course of a century, from Marisel'ka to Orinka to Irinovka.

Unfortunately, much has already been lost, and much is disappearing right before our eyes. But in the forests of the Karelia one can still find stones marking the border of 1323:

"Grand Prince Yurij along with Posadnik (a regional representative of the Novgorod Republic) Afromej and Marshal Avrom and along with all Novgorod hereby and forthwith conclude a Peace with their new-found Brother, Prince of Sweden Manush Orekhovits. With Ambassadors of the Prince of Sweden being: Henrich Djurovits, Geminki Orislovits, Peter Junshin, and Father Vymunder. And with Witnesses to the signing being: Ludovik and Fjodor, Merchants from the Teutonic Shore. And with a Peace being concluded unto all Ages, and with the Holy Cross being so kissed, Grand Prince Yurij along with all Novgorod hereby offer of Love: three Pogosts (an administrative unit consisting of several villages) Sevilaksha, Yaksi, and Ogreba, likewise the Karelian Pogosts. And henceforth the Division and Border shall be: from the Sea alongst the River Sestra, from the Sestra unto the Bog and to the Hill amongst such Bog, unto the River Saja, from the Saja to Solnychnyj Rock, from Solnychnyj Rock through Chermnyj Gorge, from Chermnyj Gorge to Lake Lembo, unto the Bog on Pekhkej, unto the Lake Kangas, unto Purnojarvi, unto ... Yantojarvi, unto Terzhejarvi, unto Sergilakshi, unto Samosalo, unto Zhiti, unto Korelomkoshki, unto Kolemakoshki, unto Patsoeki, unto Kajano Sea, ..." (photocopy of the original text)

However, the few folk and regional museums surrounding our "city of museums" could be counted on your fingers.

I hope that the information on this site will help you learn more about the St. Petersburg environs and will make your jaunts outside the city more interesting and enjoyable.

Sincerely, Aleksej Shvarjov

From the funds of the Russian National Library. Map of Ingermanland: Ivangorod, Pit, Koporye, Noteborg. 1676 Map of former provinces ...

When Sweden was in control of the area, 1676.
BIG map here in 4 parts.
All roads lead to Nyen. Well there is a T junction there.
Map "Plan of Nyen", 1698 - Drawn by J. Meyer on June 29, 1698.

 

[Whitewave]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: whitewave
Date: 2019-03-26 15:13:09
Reaction Score: 2

Apparently built over a Swedish fort.
"Under the terms of the Treaty of Nystad (1721), Peter the Great occupied Sweden’s Baltic provinces and wasted little time in building a new capital, St. Petersburg, on the site of the old Swedish fortress of Nyenskans. With that, Russia’s entire focus shifted; a nation that had spent centuries looking east and confronting the Tartar threat now had a window on the West, through which new ideas would flow and new rivalries come into focus."

 

[Archive]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: Red Bird
Date: 2019-03-26 16:51:06
Reaction Score: 0

I never had to resarch so many old germanic/french/whatever words but this is what i got so far.

Topographic depiction of the new main residence and sea-city S.Petersburg including their first erected fortress
which was built by their Czaar Maj. PETRO ALEXIEWITZ - the *self-sustainer* of the Russians (*for lack of a better word*)

In i703, built on the top of the Baltic Sea on numerous islands on the spring of the Neva-Stream, and been provided with a powerful fleet for entrance in trade and shipping for the Russian Nation.

from: BAPTIST HOMANN in Nürnberg

There are interesting bits everywhere!

"to the far right"
CROHN SCHLOT ( Crohn - Kron - Crown) (Schlot - Schloss - Castle)
6 miles away from S Petersburg,
was built in i704 as a port in the middle of the winter.

Well this seems odd. They were able to build it in the middle of the winter. Must have been in such a hurry. The description says clearly in the middle of the winter (singular). Could such a structure be build in a couple cold months?

Additionally it says Finnläendische Gegend- which means Finnish area. There are also Stockrooms, a Hospital and a big brewery on the island.

At the bottom right corner it says Neva or Neu-Schantz jetzo ruinirt (jetzt runiert - now ruined!) and depicting a ruined star fort (flooded with mud maybe? And why JETZT, why now?
(neu is new and Schanz could be Schanze -entrenchment/earthwork/fieldwork)

Largest Park at the big island fort to the west - Baumluftgarten (tree-air-garden) for the presence of all people.

I find it interesting why the autor had to emphasize its for the use of all people.

Bottom left island says Noch unbewohnte Insel - Island without any inhabitants yet.

I can see lots of stuff there, from Inns directly on the shore, to huge ropewalks, mills etc. Multiple catholic churches, a Finnish/Luth and Russian church. A Elephanthouse? (wo ein schöner Elephant stehet - where a nice elephant stands). Appartments dedicated for the copper and ireonforge. Bookprinting and even a big tower to easier navigate the ships entering the docs. Even the gardeners and artists had their own dedicated appartments.

Holy shite!

Which map were you looking at and what year was it? I am wondering because of the date they give for Star fort building, and if it was already in ruins that would set the date back, too.

 

[nothingnew]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: nothingnew
Date: 2019-03-26 19:59:38
Reaction Score: 1

It was the 1720 Map KorbenDallas provided in the first post.

 

[Archive]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: jd755
Date: 2019-03-26 20:26:13
Reaction Score: 1

Apparently built over a Swedish fort.
"Under the terms of the Treaty of Nystad (1721), Peter the Great occupied Sweden’s Baltic provinces and wasted little time in building a new capital, St. Petersburg, on the site of the old Swedish fortress of Nyenskans. With that, Russia’s entire focus shifted; a nation that had spent centuries looking east and confronting the Tartar threat now had a window on the West, through which new ideas would flow and new rivalries come into focus."

As ever with these tales of yore there's an alternative. Nyenschantz Swedish fortress seized by Russian troops
On 1 (12) May, 1703 the fortress capitulated. Having captured Nyenschantz, the Russians gained the control over the entire Neva, from source to mouth. The access to the Gulf of Finland was open. After its fall Nyenschantz was renamed to Slotburg (Lock town).

Not sure what to make of this site as Slotburg doesn't get a mention.

• 18th Century Plans - Exhibition `MOSAIC PICTURE OF ST. PETERSBURG`

Biggish star fort on this Swedish map Link

 

[Archive]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: BrokenAgate
Date: 2019-03-26 22:46:45
Reaction Score: 1

I wish I could afford to travel. I could spend weeks in this one location!

Who and why was faking our documents similar to the below Saint Petersburg maps, created in the19th century by the same author?

Those maps show subtle changes in the shape of the land over time. How was the cartographer able to draw such precise images? Surely, he had to be flying? These are aerial views on a par with modern maps.

It could have been the Tartarian griffin modified to the looks of a dragon. After all somebody out there wiped Tartaria out from history to the point where none of us knew about it just a few years ago.

I have noticed that, in these paintings, the knight is usually stabbing the dragon in the mouth. Sometimes, it's the neck, but most often, the mouth. Silencing the spoken word?

There seems to be only one drawing available of this massive undertaking done by YM Felten in 1770....

The stone in this drawing doesn't look like the actual stone that's in place now. Was it recarved on-site, or is the entire story a load of horse pucky?

 

[JWW427]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: JWW427
Date: 2019-08-31 21:50:25
Reaction Score: 7

I visited St. Petersburg in 1990.
It was beyond stunning, and I've always been an admirer of their engineering and cleverness.
But when I watched the Newearth video I nearly collapsed. No wonder the Russians are so proud of this city and Peter's legacy, and no wonder they fought to the death in WW2 to defend her at all costs. This city defines Russia in my book, heart and soul.

One additional item in regards to the engineering and architecture. It was said that Peter toured all of Europe and brought back many architects, artists, sculptors, and engineers to build his romantic city, the "Paris of the North."
He must have emptied Europe of these rare and valued professionals! How many were needed? Thousands. I have to wonder if he just paid them extremely well. Weren't they needed elsewhere? Would foreign governments frown on such an exodus? And for 17 years?
Even just for the restoration of this supposed Tartarian capitol, it must have been quite a feat. Just gilding every dome would be a chore.

Don't forget the nicely finished, stone-lined canals, they must have been a pain to restore. Bridges too. See the pic with the two griffins, the very ones on the old Tartarian flags.
The Russians get full credit for their efforts in building/restoring this city, it must have been a mess when Peter first viewed it.
Anytime you see multiple star forts and those technological Tartarian onion domed "churches," I think we see an important ancient settlement. That's a valuable clue. I really like all the little itty bitty pyramids on the domes if you look closely. WHAT, pray tell, were those used for?

JWW

 

[Archive]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: hajni
Date: 2019-09-04 18:28:55
Reaction Score: 11

I'm wondering, who this giant guy was, and why he must remain under the mud near St. Petersbourg so long?

 

[KD Archive]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: KorbenDallas
Date: 2020-01-30 10:19:28
Reaction Score: 1

I'm wondering if this is Saint Petersburg protruding out of the water on this 1562 map.

I guess it could be Kronstadt on Kotlin Island, but the map icon appears to be too big for that.

 

[Huaqero]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: Huaqero
Date: 2020-01-30 14:17:05
Reaction Score: 5

Not much time for posting, but I wouldn't like to forget this one...
There is this story of a Princess Tarakanova who died of tuberculosis in 1775 but she was later depicted in a famous painting as dying trapped in her cell (inside the St.Petersburg starfort) during the flood of 1777 and ... A narrative mess if you follow the wiki stories.
Moreover, the painter himself has a weird, not well edited, wiki profile, an exhibition in 1864 is mentioned and generally he sounds like a fictional character to me.

I had sent the story to Martin Liedtke a while ago. While he showed the picture, he didn't pay much attention to the story, the characters and the timeline. I personally find these revealing of the PTB modus operandi:
Artwork, either preserved from the Old World, or freshly created, is used to propagate the new timeline, characters and events take new designations and 'exhibitions' reveal the new narrative to the public, in this case through art.
In the new internet era, PTB insert the faux narrative into wiki pages for posterity, but the job is often done clumsily and we end with a mess of names, narratives, timelines, sources, etc like in this case.

 

[Archive]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: Red Bird
Date: 2020-01-30 14:29:33
Reaction Score: 2

I'm wondering if this is Saint Petersburg protruding out of the water on this 1562 map.

View attachment 39707

I guess it could be Kronstadt on Kotlin Island, but the map icon appears to be too big for that.

This would correspond with the same time period maps showing water over NW America/California. it Seems ocean levels were much higher then receded post ‘1500’s’.
edit: also African desertification
Having just looked into Frisia/Doggerland a bit (Atlantis, too?) perhaps the seas rose twice, or actually just once in 500ad-ish, thus the dark ages and calendar confusion and the seeming weird shift from Greek/Roman times to 1500’s and lost/no writings, graves etc.
However just take British history... how to reconcile the above theory If it was underwater? It could match up 500ad forward, but not 1500ad forward...also ancient history (Brutus) could’ve happened as Doggerland, then inundation, then the rest...
This date thing strains the brain.
One thing is known- sea levels rose then abated, but not as far as before. It’s a fact even mainline can’t ignore.

 

[Cemen]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: Cemen
Date: 2020-02-06 13:16:35
Reaction Score: 1

I'm wondering, who this giant guy was, and why he must remain under the mud near St. Petersbourg so long?

View attachment 28644View attachment 28645View attachment 28646

Official historians do not know what kind of head it is and where it came from. A bunch of versions, up to the point that the soldiers cut their heads in my spare time (the last thing I would do when I served in the army was to hollow my head out of stone).
At the head, the right side is interesting, the nostril and below, it seemed to flow. I think that this is an unfinished and / or defective casting.

The head has been known for more than 200 years, but for some reason no one has dug it up yet, although a few people with shovels are enough for the initial stage under the supervision of an archaeologist.
Apparently they do not want to dig out what should not be.

Google Переводчик

 

[Archive]

Note: This post was recovered from the Sh.org archive.
Username: ScottFreeman
Date: 2020-02-07 03:30:44
Reaction Score: 2

Additionally the coloring on the map seems very detailed staying inside the outlines of buildings yet the flag on top of the castle is colored in a weird blue shade and overall does not match the precision of the rest. Why would someone try to hide the fact that the flag was white?

The more I stare at it...I don't think that the flag portion is original at all. The pole/staff/mast or whatever is original but it looks like someone did a poor job and the swath of color was added to hide smudges/mistakes.

One detail pointing me to this is the very dark line indicating the bottom edge of the flag. It's too dark and seems to follow the text too closely as if not on the mind of the artist and was added after. Similar to starting a long word too close to the edge of a page, one then makes the letters smaller and smaller, indicating poor planning. To me the artist never anticipated adding something waving from that "spire". The flag drawer afterwards had to adjust around the text/words because their planning was poor.

Another is the size of the flag. On a calm day it would lay on the roof of the building. It's HUGE and out of balance with everything else.
So I think we have a good original artist and a bad forger coming later who couldn't even get proportion right.

I may be all wrong, but really, does that look like a flag pole?

Edit: Noticed something else that appears to have been hidden when the colors were added. Check out the roof line on the left side, they colored a part that shouldn't have been. There is a wire strung from the pole parallel to the roof line and attached at the left side of the building.