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Many of us think that the city that Cortes is supposed to draw and send to Carlos V does not fit in with the Tenochtitlan that they show us today.
Tenochtitlan Main Temple
HB: That is why I wanted to introduce you to the proposal of a man who lived from 1447 to 1547, practically at the height of the discovery of America.
Called: Johannes Schoner (1477-1547) who claimed in 1523 that Tenochtitlán, the city conquered by Hernán Cortés two years earlier, was the Chinese metropolis of Quinsay, the "City of Heaven."
These three points seem to me to be main:
-America united to the Asian continent according to some old maps.
-A surprising architecture.
-Similarity between the statements of Marco Polo when he visited Quinsay and that of Hernan Cortes when he arrived at Temix-Titan.
Johannes Schóner had access to several testimonies, among them the second Kinship Letter of Hernán Cortés and also the Book of the wonders of the world, the famous Millione, by the Venetian Marco Polo. And of course Schóner was aware of what had been written about the trips of Columbus and those who later marched to those lands located to the west.
"These new lands (those of the western hemisphere) belong to the continent of Upper India, which is part of Asia ..." (Schoner c.1523, 10.)
In this interpretation of Magellan's voyage, Schoner followed the opinion of Maximiliano Transilvano, Carlos V's secretary, expressed in a letter written in Valladolid at the end of 1522. Addressing the Cardinal of Salzburg to Transilvano, he reported in it what he knew about the recent Magellan's journey, hinting that the union of the so-called New World with Asia could be concluded from him.
Globe by Johannes Schöner of Weimar from 1533.
Schoner identifies Mexico-Tenochtitlan with Quinsay, the "City of Heaven."
Let's see what he wrote about it.
Mexico-Temistitan in Upper India or, rather, in Cathay, China.
Without hesitation on this point, Schoner expresses it in his Opusculum Geographicum:
"Following a long circuit, towards the west, starting from Spain, there is a land called Mexico and Themis-titan in Upper India, which the ancients called Quinsay, that is to say . to say the City of Heaven. " (Schoner, c. 1523, 12.)
Something similar to the thread SH Archive - Continent of North America does not exist... or could it be a part of Asia?
THIS IS THE PART OF MARCO POLO:
To know the location that was attributed to Quinsay we can go to Henricus Martellus's world map, drawn up in Nuremberg around 1490. In it the image of the world of Ptolemy is preserved, although already very enriched.
Quinsay appears at the eastern end of Asia, as one of the two largest cities on Earth and built precisely on a large lagoon. Both in the terrestrial globe of 1523, as in another of his of 1533, Schoner delineates such a union of America with Asia. Schoner, a native of Nuremberg, where he worked, knew that map of the world. Also, as it is true, it can be said that he had read at least the part of Marco Polo's book in which he talks about Quinsay, explaining that it was the "City of Heaven". In describing it, he points out that it was also given the name Hang-Tcheou, which endures to the present. Marco Polo reports that Hang-Tcheou, with another name from Quinsay, was the capital of Manzio in southern China. In describing its splendor, among other things, he comments that:
It is so big that it has a hundred miles per circuit and it has twelve thousand stone bridges ... Because you have to know that this city is built on the water that surrounds it from all sides. It is convenient, therefore, that there are so many bridges.
There are splendid palaces and rich houses belonging to the nobles of the city. Many idols are also kept, and numerous monasteries ...
There are more than three thousand baths in it ... Merchants arrive there loaded with various products ... Its inhabitants are excellent men of war ... When a child is born they write down the day and time of its birth and under what sign occurred. When [later] someone wants to travel, he consults an astrologer to see if he should take the trip or not ...
People burn the bodies of those who die ... The palace of the supreme ruler of Manzi is the largest in the world ... Inside there are very beautiful gardens ... The city receives immense tributes ..., forty times five one thousand six hundred gold pesos ... (Marco Polo 1988, 82-90.)
THIS IS THE PART OF HERNAN CORTES:
Regarding what was expressed by Hernán Cortés about Mexico-Tenochtitlán in his second Letter of Relationship, dated October 30, 1520.
This letter was published very early in Spain. It appeared in Seville. in the printing house of Jacobo Cromberger, in November 1522.
As it is possible that Schüner read the description of the metropolis that Cortés conquered in that Spanish edition, it is also possible to think that he had access to the printing of it in German, which was published in March 1524 and precisely in Nuremberg, where he worked. Schoner. The latter goes on to affirm that the Treaty where he identified the Mexican metropolis with the Chinese, was written and printed not in 1523, but a few years later.
Let's now look at Cortés de México-Tenochtitlan's description without losing sight of Marco Polo's description of Quinsay:
This great city of Temistitán is founded on this salty lagoon, and if you want to enter, there are two leagues. It has four entrances, all of hand-made carriageway, as wide as two spears put together ...
The city is as big as Seville and Córdoba. They are her streets, I mean the main ones, very wide and straight ...
There are bridges of very wide and very large beams together and all of them strong and well carved ... This city has many squares, where there are continuous markets and I try to buy and sell. It has another square as big as twice the city of Salamanca ...
In this city there are many mosques or houses of their idols, with very beautiful buildings ... and in the main ones there are religious people of their sect, who continuously reside in them ...
There are many very good and very large houses in this great city, and the reason for having so many main houses is that all the lords of these lands, are vassals of the said Muteczuma, have their houses in said city ... besides this there are many rich citizens who also have very good houses ...
The people of this city are in more manner and delicacy in their dress and service than there is in the other of these provinces and cities ...
In all the lordships of these lordships they had forces made [garrisons] and in them their own people and their governors and took their governors from the service and income that each province gave them, and there was an account and reason for what each one was obliged to give, because they have characters and figures written on the paper they make ...
[The sovereign] had a house a little less good than this one where he had a beautiful garden ... In this house he had ten pools of water ... (Cortés 1946, 31-34.)
In summary, the two descriptions converge on the following main points: greatness of the city, being built on water, having many bridges, large markets and merchants, there are also temples with idols and monasteries, large palaces, one in particular, residence of the sovereign, with a beautiful garden, sumptuous houses, as well as in the wealth of the metropolises to which tributes flowed.
HB:
-I agree that both descriptions are very similar.
-To begin with, he is already confusing himself in Aguila de dos cabeza on the Cortes map.
-And in the Moctezuma crown, as well as in other places in Mexico.
-Do you realize all the changes that the American continent underwent? and it is until around 1850 that it takes the form that we know with the names that we know.
-Do you realize that we really don't know much about what happened in colonialism, as if it had been an added time, as Fomenko alleges?
-We have two events during which Tartary was attacked from the West first and from the East second.
1773-75 attack from the West: masquerading as the Pugachev rebellion.
1775-1783 attack from the east: masquerading as American Revolutionary War.
-Then in 1810-12-etc. Great events happen simultaneously with the attack on Moscow in 1812 by Napoleon and the rest of Europe, the American Civil War, the independences in America, without forgetting that disaster that the caprice artists drew.
THREAD SOURCE: México Tenochtitlan: metrópoli de la China
Tenochtitlan Main Temple
Called: Johannes Schoner (1477-1547) who claimed in 1523 that Tenochtitlán, the city conquered by Hernán Cortés two years earlier, was the Chinese metropolis of Quinsay, the "City of Heaven."
These three points seem to me to be main:
-America united to the Asian continent according to some old maps.
-A surprising architecture.
-Similarity between the statements of Marco Polo when he visited Quinsay and that of Hernan Cortes when he arrived at Temix-Titan.
Johannes Schóner had access to several testimonies, among them the second Kinship Letter of Hernán Cortés and also the Book of the wonders of the world, the famous Millione, by the Venetian Marco Polo. And of course Schóner was aware of what had been written about the trips of Columbus and those who later marched to those lands located to the west.
"These new lands (those of the western hemisphere) belong to the continent of Upper India, which is part of Asia ..." (Schoner c.1523, 10.)
In this interpretation of Magellan's voyage, Schoner followed the opinion of Maximiliano Transilvano, Carlos V's secretary, expressed in a letter written in Valladolid at the end of 1522. Addressing the Cardinal of Salzburg to Transilvano, he reported in it what he knew about the recent Magellan's journey, hinting that the union of the so-called New World with Asia could be concluded from him.
Globe by Johannes Schöner of Weimar from 1533.
Let's see what he wrote about it.
Mexico-Temistitan in Upper India or, rather, in Cathay, China.
Without hesitation on this point, Schoner expresses it in his Opusculum Geographicum:
"Following a long circuit, towards the west, starting from Spain, there is a land called Mexico and Themis-titan in Upper India, which the ancients called Quinsay, that is to say . to say the City of Heaven. " (Schoner, c. 1523, 12.)
Something similar to the thread SH Archive - Continent of North America does not exist... or could it be a part of Asia?
THIS IS THE PART OF MARCO POLO:
To know the location that was attributed to Quinsay we can go to Henricus Martellus's world map, drawn up in Nuremberg around 1490. In it the image of the world of Ptolemy is preserved, although already very enriched.
Quinsay appears at the eastern end of Asia, as one of the two largest cities on Earth and built precisely on a large lagoon. Both in the terrestrial globe of 1523, as in another of his of 1533, Schoner delineates such a union of America with Asia. Schoner, a native of Nuremberg, where he worked, knew that map of the world. Also, as it is true, it can be said that he had read at least the part of Marco Polo's book in which he talks about Quinsay, explaining that it was the "City of Heaven". In describing it, he points out that it was also given the name Hang-Tcheou, which endures to the present. Marco Polo reports that Hang-Tcheou, with another name from Quinsay, was the capital of Manzio in southern China. In describing its splendor, among other things, he comments that:
It is so big that it has a hundred miles per circuit and it has twelve thousand stone bridges ... Because you have to know that this city is built on the water that surrounds it from all sides. It is convenient, therefore, that there are so many bridges.
There are splendid palaces and rich houses belonging to the nobles of the city. Many idols are also kept, and numerous monasteries ...
There are more than three thousand baths in it ... Merchants arrive there loaded with various products ... Its inhabitants are excellent men of war ... When a child is born they write down the day and time of its birth and under what sign occurred. When [later] someone wants to travel, he consults an astrologer to see if he should take the trip or not ...
People burn the bodies of those who die ... The palace of the supreme ruler of Manzi is the largest in the world ... Inside there are very beautiful gardens ... The city receives immense tributes ..., forty times five one thousand six hundred gold pesos ... (Marco Polo 1988, 82-90.)
THIS IS THE PART OF HERNAN CORTES:
This letter was published very early in Spain. It appeared in Seville. in the printing house of Jacobo Cromberger, in November 1522.
As it is possible that Schüner read the description of the metropolis that Cortés conquered in that Spanish edition, it is also possible to think that he had access to the printing of it in German, which was published in March 1524 and precisely in Nuremberg, where he worked. Schoner. The latter goes on to affirm that the Treaty where he identified the Mexican metropolis with the Chinese, was written and printed not in 1523, but a few years later.
Let's now look at Cortés de México-Tenochtitlan's description without losing sight of Marco Polo's description of Quinsay:
This great city of Temistitán is founded on this salty lagoon, and if you want to enter, there are two leagues. It has four entrances, all of hand-made carriageway, as wide as two spears put together ...
The city is as big as Seville and Córdoba. They are her streets, I mean the main ones, very wide and straight ...
There are bridges of very wide and very large beams together and all of them strong and well carved ... This city has many squares, where there are continuous markets and I try to buy and sell. It has another square as big as twice the city of Salamanca ...
In this city there are many mosques or houses of their idols, with very beautiful buildings ... and in the main ones there are religious people of their sect, who continuously reside in them ...
There are many very good and very large houses in this great city, and the reason for having so many main houses is that all the lords of these lands, are vassals of the said Muteczuma, have their houses in said city ... besides this there are many rich citizens who also have very good houses ...
The people of this city are in more manner and delicacy in their dress and service than there is in the other of these provinces and cities ...
In all the lordships of these lordships they had forces made [garrisons] and in them their own people and their governors and took their governors from the service and income that each province gave them, and there was an account and reason for what each one was obliged to give, because they have characters and figures written on the paper they make ...
[The sovereign] had a house a little less good than this one where he had a beautiful garden ... In this house he had ten pools of water ... (Cortés 1946, 31-34.)
In summary, the two descriptions converge on the following main points: greatness of the city, being built on water, having many bridges, large markets and merchants, there are also temples with idols and monasteries, large palaces, one in particular, residence of the sovereign, with a beautiful garden, sumptuous houses, as well as in the wealth of the metropolises to which tributes flowed.
HB:
-I agree that both descriptions are very similar.
-To begin with, he is already confusing himself in Aguila de dos cabeza on the Cortes map.
-And in the Moctezuma crown, as well as in other places in Mexico.
-Do you realize all the changes that the American continent underwent? and it is until around 1850 that it takes the form that we know with the names that we know.
-Do you realize that we really don't know much about what happened in colonialism, as if it had been an added time, as Fomenko alleges?
-We have two events during which Tartary was attacked from the West first and from the East second.
1773-75 attack from the West: masquerading as the Pugachev rebellion.
1775-1783 attack from the east: masquerading as American Revolutionary War.
-Then in 1810-12-etc. Great events happen simultaneously with the attack on Moscow in 1812 by Napoleon and the rest of Europe, the American Civil War, the independences in America, without forgetting that disaster that the caprice artists drew.
THREAD SOURCE: México Tenochtitlan: metrópoli de la China
