Evidence humans were created and traded as slaves, food, entertainment and material resources (IHASFEMR)

[usselo]

This thread has been quite thought-provoking to read through.

Have you enjoyed reading through it?

When mentions of Nocton were made previously... I couldn't help myself by looking up the origins of "noc" and "ton" and the results invariably lead back to "night/darkness/death" and "wineskin/barrel/cask" respectively. Definitely makes one imagine more things in relation to talks of "frothy blood" and such.

That's a good point on 'tun', as in 'cask' or 'barrel. I hadn't thought of that.

The 'frothy blood' meme is interesting. Other than trying to understand Selenadia's texts I haven't tried to discover more about it. However, I'm playing around with the idea that red blood cells and/or hemoglobin may have been used as catalysts in Gild-run fermentation operations. So, for example, blood may have been added to decomposing organic materials to help bacteria and/or yeasts produce particular gases more efficiently.

I can find evidence that iron-bearing chemicals are used to boost fermentation reactions but I'm not chemist enough to make much sense of them. And 'catalysts' is probably not the correct technical term for 'chemical helpers in fermentation processes' but, hopefully, you get what I mean.

Monitoring and occasionally stirring a vat of frothy blood (perhaps in the Laird's mausoleum) may have been one of those chores that we or our predecessors got to do a few times each day.

ProfessorHotStuff said:

racial crime statistics shows that docility training has taken more in those races than others. If we were the ones descended from food animals and other locations' peoples are the descendants of early escapees that would explain it as well - they would have essentially recovered from their domesticated state to become feral for the purpose of survival in the wild.

I'm not sure any of us have ever escaped. An alternative way of seeing our position might be as like koi carp in a pond. We may no longer be eaten and we may even be the beneficiaries of a glorious, human-centred politico-economic system. However, we are constrained in a controlled zone and there are still fishing industries beyond the pond and beyond our ken. But I'm not knocking that point; I just think our ability to assess our visible and invisible realities are being restricted more than we realise.

Obviously the discussion on race issues expanded from your comment onwards. I do wonder about the physical differences between races and have researched them a little. That's because I'm trying to see the pragmatic benefits to our product managers of introducing our known racial anatomical differences. Personally I think the differences are more likely to have been about producing materials like vellum and contrasting hair colours/textures for upholstery, etc. But then, I would, given the 'Material Resources' part of IHASFEMR.

What we lack in discussions of race-based differences is hard data. The easily available data seems to be highly politicised. I've got some ideas about assembling evidence to get around that but it will take a while to collate and present.

feralimal said:

My working working hypothesis is that there are at least 2 entities here, humans and another. Perhaps we have one timescale of life, and they a longer one.

The Doom painting - from this post - at St Peter and St Paul's church in Chaldon, Surrey, tells a tale. A tale of selection:

Lazarus rises. Source: Medieval Wall Painting - Chaldon​

Close up:

Some for the pot. Some for the top. Source: Medieval Wall Painting - Chaldon​

In the lower right of the top panel, one of the pig-demons is shown with bound wrists lying on top of a serpent or worm. Doom paintings usually show only humans being fed to serpents and worms.

Reading Stukeley, de la Pryme and Byng - and reading about Stukeley, de la Pryme and Byng - you can certainly see hints they had been alive for a very long time. For example, that Stukeley was 250 years old and that all of them had been involved with or seen times prior to the interdiction and final stages of the Roman Empire. By which I mean the so-called Holy Roman Empire. Qualifying that, of course, with the observation that their material on archive.org and elsewhere doesn't have a straightforward provenance.

I wonder if caricatures of gentlemen of these times show them as they actually were. With jutting chins, somewhat bony features and often a long-fingered, long-limbed appearance. Perhaps chalked wigs hid a lack of head hair. And then there are the creatures they claim to have seen or to have been told had been seen. Besides the sea serpents (Beccles, Suffolk) and the serpent-dragons (Ludham, Norfolk), there are accounts like this:

From The Torrington Diaries - A Tour In The Midlands, 1789, John Byng, p145, describing a fair at Sandy, Bedfordshire, dated 1789-06-01:

There were many Pharoahs lean kine and some nags with several Slight-of-Hand Men, and a Learned Pig; for since the first of these learned grunting-Gentry, that was so much admired, the Piggish Race have improved amazingly in wisdom; and disperse their knowledge over the Kingdom at the very cheap rate of One Penny per Head.

Their own fertility - or perhaps the poor fertility of recently hybridised humans - is often hinted at. Their poor respiratory and digestive health (Byng and many others), the many child deaths, and many lords, dukes, etc that die without issue or die without male issue.

Also from From The Torrington Diaries - A Tour In The Midlands, 1789, John Byng:

From this walk, a very hot one, I returned to another Glass of Brandy, and Water; overtaking upon the Bridge, a clean-looking Woman, leading two fine Boys, dressed in light Blue, the Livery of the great (Harper) Charity here; upon my admiring their Looks and Cleanliness, She Thanked God for her Luck in getting them upon so good a Foundation; and in giving her two such Healthy and well-disposed Boys, that were the comfort of her life.—There was something wonderfully pathetic in her Words and Looks; and her leading in either Hand, these her Hopes, Whom she alternately Survey'd with Fondness, and Transport.

IIRC, Byng refers to seeing 'six children created out of fermentation' or words to that effect. The Harpur quote above can be interpreted as a very conventional scenario. But it may also describe two 'incubator babies' or perhaps even fermentation babies.

feralimal said (quoting me):

Anyway, leaving my commentary out of it
...
I know I'm misconstruing this minor comment, but I think I have learnt not to leave my commentary out.

Well-spotted. It was a double-entendre; the joke being that pretty much all of the post was commentary.

Now, returning to the discussion of manufactured human docility... I commented that docility may or may not be the ultimate goal. That it may be an intermediate step in an attempt to shift humans away from the ogrish role models they witnessed (and may have learned from) in the past. I'm avoiding making the claim that docility was induced to make us more farmable. It may have been. I just don't know and others are welcome to make the claim and argue for it.

What I am suggesting is that we've been steered away from a set of learned behaviours (and possibly built-in behaviours). I'm suggesting the strict discipline involving hard work and poor reward may be part of the toolset that has been - and is being - used to achieve this steering away from an ogrish past. It's conceivable that the goal is to make us more amenable. More comfortable to associate with. As opposed to more comfortable to play games with (as we seem to have been in the past). And as opposed to easier to tax/farm (as we currently are).

Continuing along this imaginative line, it's possible that we present a training problem. The problem being that we are sentient and potentially even intelligent. We are capable of receiving huge amounts of data and acting upon our interpretation of it. We're not a like a micro-controller processing a set of variables that will always lie within known parameters. We're not like a script processing a handful of variables. Or a program processing millions of data-points in a modern 'data science' scenario.

No, we can handle a huge amount of data in real-time and can physically react to it. For good or bad.

Looking at what has been entrained in us, seemingly since around the time of Carlyle, and looking at the way we've been entrained... Looking especially at the current focus of BBC news reporting (it's a narrow slice of world-view I know), I'm tempted to think a lot of work is going into teaching us to feel empathy. That is, to know what suffering is. Not only what it feels like, but to know within ourselves what suffering enables and disables. If you were our design team, you wouldn't want a capable, engineered intelligence like us near you if we didn't already have empathy.

Could be wrong of course. I have been before.

One of the problems of teaching empathy is: where the Hell do you start?

Where the Hell do you start?

This is a very provisional idea. But it would explain the introduction and teaching of formalised and semi-formalised partner and team activities. From partner dancing to nationalism:

Download Video​

Dance training. Westworld, 2016. Source: Westworld S01 Ep08

Download Video​

Dance training, West London, 1958. Source: Can't Get You Out of My Head (2021)

I won't add a video of soldiers goosestepping in unison. But you can imagine it, I'm sure.

I don't know. What do you think? Is it possible humans were managed into docility and suffering at each other's hands so that we could begin to develop empathy?

Or am I simply being a docile supporter of the Authorities who farm us?

 

[TheImp]

Have you enjoyed reading through it?

I suppose I have enjoyed the read as much as one can when uncovering things that may be literal horrors beyond our limited comprehension (due to a huge lack of information). I think it's generally helpful to use different lenses to assess our history and try to puzzle out what we can.

That's a good point on 'tun', as in 'cask' or 'barrel. I hadn't thought of that.

The 'frothy blood' meme is interesting. Other than trying to understand Selenadia's texts I haven't tried to discover more about it. However, I'm playing around with the idea that red blood cells and/or hemoglobin may have been used as catalysts in Gild-run fermentation operations. So, for example, blood may have been added to decomposing organic materials to help bacteria and/or yeasts produce particular gases more efficiently.

'Catalysts' is probably not the correct technical term for 'chemical helpers' in fermentation processes but you hopefully get what I mean.

Monitoring and occasionally stirring a vat of frothy blood (perhaps in the Laird's mausoleum) may have been one of those chores that we or our predecessors got to do a few times each day.

I can find evidence that iron-bearing chemicals are used to boost fermentation reactions but I'm not chemist enough to make much sense of them.

It's funny that yeast keeps coming up, given our supposedly new yeast "improvements" that have been recently created by inserting human genes. How fortuitous for our discussion.

 

[solarbard]

I definitely think so, especially in Europe and East Asia. A look at racial crime statistics shows that docility training has taken more in those races than others. If we were the ones descended from food animals and other locations' peoples are the descendants of early escapees that would explain it as well - they would have essentially recovered from their domesticated state to become feral for the purpose of survival in the wild. (If we were to look at Establishment history, I'd say Christianity is what increased docility in whites, but obviously my mind is open to what is in this thread).

This post is not intended to be a justification for "hate." I'm just trying to take a clear-eyed look at things. Anecdotally, my wife is only 1/4 Native American and she has an utter disregard for the laws of man - same for the NA side of her family.

"Utter disregard for the laws of man" What do you mean?

 

[Frits]

I don't know. What do you think? Is it possible humans were managed into docility and suffering at each other's hands so that we could begin to develop empathy?

Empathy is one of the special energies of the universe and it is natural behaviour; empathy is the power of the group/pack/flock/community et cetera. It has not to be developed it is all ready there, it is one of the bricks love is build upon. The other brick is fear.
Emotions only knows two things: love vs fear; everything can point to one of these two.

 

[Citezenship]

They enjoy irreverance, preferably iconoclastic irreverance - delivered as video and images. This is useful feedback about what constitutes engaging content that viewers are happy to share among themselves (ie, make viral).

Haha, this is so funny and yet very, so true that it is in fact deeply disturbing given the state of affairs and most likely an indication of why the authority deems us(the gen pop) to be children, lost at see(not a spelling mistake). it also explains why almost all popular culture uses symbology and subliminal que's to program us with techniques such as colour tuning and differing musical scales to lead us on emotional journeys through the medium of tele-vision and music, more often than not combining the two into a very powerful programming tool.

Like the song's that seem to make no sense when spoken but manage to programme the recipient with say a parable of a greek classic, why all the movies of the last 20 years convey the message that there is a saviour on the horizon, one could marvel(programming pun) at the matrix's power to spread a single message over such a diverse and wide ranging landscape.

It is funny to watch the people that watch and see them consume the medium like an opiate and feel and sometimes it seems even live other peoples lives through the medium we call the screen, it really is an insanely powerful tool, as we know with the drama that has played out throughout the last few years almost exclusively through the TV it seems that it has the power to change most peoples reality to the point where they will offer themselves as a sacrifice to the alter of the medium.

Sorry going off on a tangent there but maybe there is a connection to this thread, the medium of television and a technological way to get folks to offer themselves as a sacrifice(blood) for the gods.

Just writing what comes into my head from a perspective that sees past the programme.

 

[usselo]

Haha, this is so funny and yet very, so true that it is in fact deeply disturbing given the state of affairs and most likely an indication of why the authority deems us(the gen pop) to be children, lost at see(not a spelling mistake). it also explains why almost all popular culture uses symbology and subliminal que's to program us with techniques such as colour tuning and differing musical scales to lead us on emotional journeys through the medium of tele-vision and music, more often than not combining the two into a very powerful programming tool.

Good point - the programmable side of us is an aspect we haven't discussed much before now. Despite programming being critical to our development as intelligent humans suited for many different roles.

It is funny to watch the people that watch and see them consume the medium like an opiate and feel and sometimes it seems even live other peoples lives through the medium we call the screen, it really is an insanely powerful tool, as we know with the drama that has played out throughout the last few years almost exclusively through the TV it seems that it has the power to change most peoples reality to the point where they will offer themselves as a sacrifice to the alter of the medium.

Sorry going off on a tangent there but maybe there is a connection to this thread, the medium of television and a technological way to get folks to offer themselves as a sacrifice(blood) for the gods.

Just writing what comes into my head from a perspective that sees past the programme.

Not a tangent at all. I agree the media is full of clues to our programming. Once you even begin to see it, you have to Marvel at how advanced, nuanced, and real-time it is. Our programming has come a long way since the early days:

Download Video​

And all out of love for us. Source: Fringe s4 ep9

 

[trismegistus]

Good point - the programmable side of us is an aspect we haven't discussed much before now. Despite programming being critical to our development as intelligent humans suited for many different roles.

Not a tangent at all. I agree the media is full of clues to our programming. Once you even begin to see it, you have to marvel at how advanced, nuanced, and real-time it is. Our programming has come a long way since the early days:

View attachment 24475​

And all out of love for us. Source: Fringe s4 ep9

I just watched Alex Garland's new film, and this is a perfect example for this topic. I strongly recommend watching the film for anyone who has gotten this far into the thread, there is plenty to suggest a deeper and more thoughtful representation of symbols than simply a "story about the evils of men"

• The entity haunting the main character is initially found in a forest in a small english village - inside the "old steam engine tunnels" long forgotten.
• The woman meets this entity later as the Vicar of the local church - who's lust for her is uncontrollable. He even goes so far to ask her when she lost her virginity.
• In the church, and throughout the movie, features heavy usage of the Sheelah Na Gig, a symbol that precedes itself in this thread, and others. According to an interview with Garland he had been trying to get the Sheelah Na Gig and the Green Man into a film for 15 years
• At one point the entity performs an asexual anal birth of itself, the alchemical/esoteric imagery practically speaks for itself.

Its not unusual I watch a film with vague references to many of the topics discussed here - but frankly I have never watched a film with so many references that I could relate back directly to a specific thread. If nothing else it is a testament to all the great research in this thread, pulling at what may be one of the biggest and longest running psychological operation in human history.

 

[usselo]

I just watched Alex Garland's new film, and this is a perfect example for this topic. I strongly recommend watching the film for anyone who has gotten this far into the thread, there is plenty to suggest a deeper and more thoughtful representation of symbols than simply a "story about the evils of men"

• The entity haunting the main character is initially found in a forest in a small english village - inside the "old steam engine tunnels" long forgotten.
• The woman meets this entity later as the Vicar of the local church - who's lust for her is uncontrollable. He even goes so far to ask her when she lost her virginity.
• In the church, and throughout the movie, features heavy usage of the Sheelah Na Gig, a symbol that precedes itself in this thread, and others. According to an interview with Garland he had been trying to get the Sheelah Na Gig and the Green Man into a film for 15 years
• At one point the entity performs an asexual anal birth of itself, the alchemical/esoteric imagery practically speaks for itself.

Its not unusual I watch a film with vague references to many of the topics discussed here - but frankly I have never watched a film with so many references that I could relate back directly to a specific thread.

Ooh, how could any IHASFEMR researcher resist a write-up like that? I'll watch out for it.

I have noticed that ability of media symbols to reflect sometimes the issues examined in this thread. Somes examples of this are captured in various clips in the thread.

You can wonder if they are coincidence.

You can wonder if they are programming us to slowly (and individually) re-consider our past. A sort of slow-burning Disclosure project.

Sometimes they match so closely in quality and timing to something I thought that it feels as though my thought came before the programming. A good example from a couple of days ago:

I added the 'joint' video from Fringe to post-116107 about half an hour after I first saw the scene. I was watching that Fringe episode for the first time and broke off watching it to prepare and post the clip.

I added the 'Bogart' caption a few minutes after posting the clip. There is no obvious reference to Bogart in that Fringe episode (Fringe s3 e06).

So the Bogart caption felt like my own, original thought.

About an hour later I watched - also for the first time - the next episode of Fringe - Season 3, episode 7.

Towards the end was this bedtime scene:

Download Video​

Hey, don't Bogart that fag!

What is happening here?

1. Coincidence
2. Perhaps the screenplay originally had Nina turning to Walter and saying: "Don't Bogart the joint". Followed one episode later by the film-makers taking the opportunity to slip Bogart into a TV scene. A cinematic homage.
3. Perhaps the editing team noticed how Nina turns towards Walter halfway through the clip and had the same thought that I had: it looks like she is about to say: "Don't Bogart the joint". And so they added Bogart in the next episode as a cinematic joke.
4. Or perhaps the 'Bogart on TV in bed' scene was added during the episode's production because earlier viewers had also quipped: "Don't Bogart the joint". I read somewhere that Westworld's plots were similarly changed while being filmed because fans were guessing the plots.
5. Perhaps all or most of our daily experience is made, manufactured. Perhaps our individual reactions and contributions are programmed into us the night before, while we are kept distracted by dreams. Perhaps these events are Fate in the French sense of the word. Fait. Made. So perhaps it wasn't my Bogart quip at all.

Our programming is a challenging aspect of IHASFEMR investigation. How are we programmed? What qualities can we use to distinguish programmed events from accidental events, from coincidence, etc...

If nothing else it is a testament to all the great research in this thread, pulling at what may be one of the biggest and longest running psychological operation in human history.

Cheers.

That is the joy of this research. It seems utterly useless - and disturbingly macabre - to those around me. But it is getting at a pretty big set of questions.

 

[Citezenship]

Perhaps these events are Fate in the French sense of the word. Fait. Made.

fait accompli

noun: fait accompli; plural noun: faits accomplis

1. a thing that has already happened or been decided before those affected hear about it, leaving them with no option but to accept it.
   "the results were presented to shareholders as a fait accompli"
   
   
   
2. mid 19th century: from French, literally ‘accomplished fact’.
3. ​
4. An accomplished fact, how very appropriate.
   
   ​

   
   ​
   
   
   
   
   

 

[usselo]

fait accompli

noun: fait accompli; plural noun: faits accomplis

1. a thing that has already happened or been decided before those affected hear about it, leaving them with no option but to accept it.
   "the results were presented to shareholders as a fait accompli"
   
   
   
2. mid 19th century: from French, literally ‘accomplished fact’.
3. ​
4. An accomplished fact, how very appropriate.

Yes. Our Fates accomplis.

Well, at least they are for those of us that are being programmed (are we accomplices in the faits accomplis that we experience?).

BTW I presume the board is populated by programmers and their customers more than it is by the programmed.

Consideration of being programmed does raise the question of whether or not it is possible to escape it. To bring more of your own decision-making into play. There are a whole bunch of issues around that. For example, I was once asked online if everything seemed to go wrong (to which the simple answer is 'yes'). But when I look at people for whom everything seems to go right, they are often somewhat 'templated'. They seem to follow a relatively consistent set of behaviours and 'tone' without taking the time to investigate the scenery on either side of the road they are on. They don't seem to try becoming a different person. I don't want to insult or demean them so I'm careful about committing thought to this, let alone making public statements about it.

Also, if you are going to consider how to escape your fait, you would need to understand how your fait is implemented. And you should certainly consider what you might find if you escape it. And whether what you find will add anything for you. As well as whether or not you will add anything to what you find.

But I've gone off-topic. Off-program, as it were.

 

[feralimal]

Programmed or programmer
Authorised or authority, author
Collectivised or individuated

One thing I think is clear is that we are programmed by stories. What have we been told and then assume to be true. Have we applied due diligence (reasoning) to an idea, or did it get past our radar, if you are even someone who applies a radar.

This is why I am cautious with all the artifacts of the system, even ones that seem supportive of whatever case I am drawn to. Is it the system responding to me or is it me spouting back a previously implanted ideas or are we working in tandem? Is it a cosmic synchronicity, or the inevitable echo of programmed behaviour? Do these synchronistic events occur in nature also, or only in the provided sandbox (on screens)?

If I don't follow the TV shows (and I don't) then I hope I am at least minimising the opportunities to be programed. Is it possible to create or understand reality on my terms, without provided stories? Or is even the physical reality I perceive, part of the problem - is the whole world a stage?

Is understanding reality even what its all about? Perhaps this reality is a shifting one, impossible to nail down. Can it be escaped from?

Perhaps this experience at best is a hardening or forging process. Is it possible that all we can do is hone ourselves, our analysis and approach, in order that we don't have to do it all again? To give ourselves the chance of a chance (h/t chiron last), so that this time in death we chose differently and escape further cycles of reincarnation, if that is even the metaphysical terrain?

We know so little.

 

[Frits]

We know so little.

I totally agree with that. I'm watching a documentary on secret wisdom and as a child I noticed patterns in objects and nature realising that that cannot occur by coincidence.

 

[feralimal]

I stumbled across a couple of plausible, modern examples, that I thought I'd add here. I'm sure there are loads more, but perhaps its worth having a couple of these examples to show that this sort of thing is not entirely historical.

1. Eating fetuses in China today:

View: https://youtu.be/KQXV84bElpA?list=PLjfRfx8HVJL3lJHabgWFzVcR_LAJ_-qF1&t=242

(timestamped to the part where this is discussed)

Sounds like a very practical, no-nosense approach - don't waste meat. It also makes me wonder whether this is a more common part of Chinese culture because they have had to endure more recent starvation situations - and of course Chinese are well known for eating all sorts of things that we would typically avoid (brains, chicken feet, insects, etc).

2. Admitted use of humans in corporate food production. A bit of a sensationalist, Christian take on things, but it checked out on wikipedia

View: https://www.bitchute.com/video/dS09MWhIPipz/


View: https://www.bitchute.com/video/I9jBuUA1o63m/

(the second has some potentially disturbing images)

The info in the first video is supported on wikipedia
Senomyx - Wikipedia

Around year 2001, Senomyx patented several flavor enhancers by using "proprietary taste receptor-based assay systems", which have been previously expressed in human cell culture, in HEK293 cells.[2] HEK293 cells are a cell line widely used in biological and medical research, immortalized through a genetic modification removed from the original human embryonic kidney cells taken from a healthy, aborted human fetus in the early 1970s.[3]

The company's stock declined after PepsiCo reversed a trial rollout of Senomyx ingredients in their sodas in 2016.[4]

Senomyx's products work by amplifying the intensity of flavors. Because very small amounts of the additive are used (reportedly less than one part per million) Senomyx has no obligation to report their ingredients to the consumer. Senomyx products fall under the broad category of "artificial flavors." For the same reason, the company's chemicals have not undergone the FDA safety approval[citation needed]. Senomyx's MSG-enhancer gained the Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS) status from the Flavor and Extract Manufacturers Association, an industry-funded organization, in less than 18 months, "received a positive review by the Joint FAO/WHO Expert Committee on Food Additives, which determined that there were no safety concerns with the use of the Company's savory flavor ingredients in foods. The positive assessment by JECFA is expected to expedite regulatory approvals in a number of countries, particularly those that do not have independent regulatory approval systems."

"flavour enhancers" "artificial flavours"

Re the second type, it is just odd that this sort of thing is rolled out into the food we eat but is done in such underhand way that it isn't possible for the average person to know. If you think that there may be something to homeopathy, and lots of people do, you would be concerned.

 

[aaabbbccc]

I think even people completely wired into the mainstream would agree that, at the very least, it is plausible for this (The people from the top of the social hierarchy using the people from the bottom of the social hierarchy as common goods - to several degrees past manual labour -) to have taken place in the past, and I personally think the chances it isn't still taking place are 0.

There is a lot of information here, so I may have missed it, but where is the "Evidence humans were created..."? That would be the only claim that would be shocking to hear.

 

[feralimal]

I think even people completely wired into the mainstream would agree that, at the very least, it is plausible for this (The people from the top of the social hierarchy using the people from the bottom of the social hierarchy as common goods - to several degrees past manual labour -) to have taken place in the past, and I personally think the chances it isn't still taking place are 0.

There is a lot of information here, so I may have missed it, but where is the "Evidence humans were created..."? That would be the only claim that would be shocking to hear.

I haven't really delved into this book yet, but I think 'Humans Are Not From Earth' by Ellis Silver has a good list of issues to indicate that we are not a product of evolution. I personally would disagree with a whole load of info in there (eg that the earth is 4.2 billion years old, planets, etc) but it seems like the evidence and questions he provides re humans and life on earth is easily verifiable.

 

[aaabbbccc]

I haven't really delved into this book yet, but I think 'Humans Are Not From Earth' by Ellis Silver has a good list of issues to indicate that we are not a product of evolution. I personally would disagree with a whole load of info in there (eg that the earth is 4.2 billion years old, planets, etc) but it seems like the evidence and questions he provides re humans and life on earth is easily verifiable.

Here is the problem I have with this:

People cannot answer the question of how it all began, and all they do is mindlessly insert complexity in-between the beginning and where we are now. The question of how it all began is un-answerable and un-verifiable, but people still try to "fill in the gaps", and we end up with useless theories and un-necessary complexity being added where-as the goal should be simplification, as, theoretically, complexity can be increased indefinitely and you never reach an ending.

I encourage you to try to think about true nothingness. I imagine everything I can observe with my own senses, everything I cannot observe with my own senses but assume exists and everything else I am not and may never have even thought about, all of it on a piece of paper, which gets progressively folded into itself until it is gone. The thought always makes me distressed because it is entirely impossible in the reality I live in.

The religious people say that "you cannot get something out of nothing". The people that believe in the Big Bang theory say "if there is a God, who created God?".

The real question is that encapsulates both of those over-used arguments is "how did the environment - that either allowed for a God to exist and exert its powers or for an explosion that created something out of nothing to take place - come to exist?".

We, as humans, have a set of concepts that seem basic and obvious and explain how our reality works. For example, if I am sitting right in front of you, you know I am not sitting behind you. Or, you have 1 red ball, and if I give you another, you now have 2 red balls. These are very basic ideas that get overlooked, and it is entirely possible that beyond our world things do not work the same way, and the only reason to assume there is even something beyond where we are now is that our common human concepts dictate that our reality isn't possible.

All of this, as I have said in the beginning, leads to a question with endless possible answers (Some of which you may not be even able to vocalize since they do not fall within our common human concepts), but all of which are unverifiable.

All of this text is just to say, perhaps we should aim to reduce complexity instead of increase it by trying to fill in the gaps then keep adding more and more information as more and more contradictions and issues appear.

 

[feralimal]

Here is the problem I have with this:

People cannot answer the question of how it all began, and all they do is mindlessly insert complexity in-between the beginning and where we are now. The question of how it all began is un-answerable and un-verifiable, but people still try to "fill in the gaps", and we end up with useless theories and un-necessary complexity being added where-as the goal should be simplification, as, theoretically, complexity can be increased indefinitely and you never reach an ending.

I encourage you to try to think about true nothingness. I imagine everything I can observe with my own senses, everything I cannot observe with my own senses but assume exists and everything else I am not and may never have even thought about, all of it on a piece of paper, which gets progressively folded into itself until it is gone. The thought always makes me distressed because it is entirely impossible in the reality I live in.

The religious people say that "you cannot get something out of nothing". The people that believe in the Big Bang theory say "if there is a God, who created God?".

The real question is that encapsulates both of those over-used arguments is "how did the environment - that either allowed for a God to exist and exert its powers or for an explosion that created something out of nothing to take place - come to exist?".

We, as humans, have a set of concepts that seem basic and obvious and explain how our reality works. For example, if I am sitting right in front of you, you know I am not sitting behind you. Or, you have 1 red ball, and if I give you another, you now have 2 red balls. These are very basic ideas that get overlooked, and it is entirely possible that beyond our world things do not work the same way, and the only reason to assume there is even something beyond where we are now is that our common human concepts dictate that our reality isn't possible.

All of this, as I have said in the beginning, leads to a question with endless possible answers (Some of which you may not be even able to vocalize since they do not fall within our common human concepts), but all of which are unverifiable.

All of this text is just to say, perhaps we should aim to reduce complexity instead of increase it by trying to fill in the gaps then keep adding more and more information as more and more contradictions and issues appear.

Dare I suggest, this sort of question is better discussed in my alt. cosmology thread? We all get a bit effusive at times here..
Alternative Mega Theories

In general, I don't disagree with your post. What I would say, is that there is the terrain, and that something happened. We are provided a story about what happened, but we think we can say that provided story is false. Whether that is by intent or accident, is a matter of debate, but many of us are convinced it is by intent.

If so, what is the value of the intentional deceit of history? One way to attempt to answer that question, is to see what is possible to put together from what you can confirm for yourself. This thread for me is interesting, as it refers evidence that can be verified for oneself (and I have personally verified some of it) and applies alternative possibilities - ones that we may find hard to conceive of, given our education, etc.

Is the attempt to understand history ultimately going to be a fruitless task? I think so - we can only establish the truth of a thing in very narrow circumstances - and in my view, history, even one's own history, cannot be known. But we can progress various hypotheses, see how the evidence falls, etc - we can take a best guess. And, if that thinking/processing results in providing us as individuals with a clearer-eyed view of reality, that may better inform us in our daily actions.

In my view, the research we do is learning about ourselves.

 

[Gladius]

Is the attempt to understand history ultimately going to be a fruitless task? I think so - we can only establish the truth of a thing in very narrow circumstances - and in my view, history, even one's own history, cannot be known. But we can progress various hypotheses, see how the evidence falls, etc - we can take a best guess. And, if that thinking/processing results in providing us as individuals with a clearer-eyed view of reality, that may better inform us in our daily actions.

In my view, the research we do is learning about ourselves.

The concept of history being 'stolen' can be compared or equaled to an actual, real world crime.

Let's say there was a gang, a sophisticated one, and they made certain criminal acts. If they really did a good job covering it up, such as disposing bodies, burning documents, killing witnesses, and impose an unbreakable code of silence till death, then the evidence will never be found. The investigators could convince that a crime was done, but not to find a smoking gun, or to find what happened in reality. In time, all the collaborators pass away.
Nearly every criminal investigation in the world is solved either by:
1. Finding the weaker link, imposing leverage on that person, and thus incriminating all the involved.
2. Finding physical evidence, left due to the criminals doing a sloppy job.
3. A witness is alive and is not afraid to testify (risk of death).

The falsifiers are no street gang, and they do not fall in any of those criterias. They're not perfect, of course, and that's why we get to have a forum like this with plenty of evidence. But if a job is done well, you'd never find it.
Think how many crimes in the world were never discovered, and never will be.

 

[feralimal]

The concept of history being 'stolen' can be compared or equaled to an actual, real world crime.

Let's say there was a gang, a sophisticated one, and they made certain criminal acts. If they really did a good job covering it up, such as disposing bodies, burning documents, killing witnesses, and impose an unbreakable code of silence till death, then the evidence will never be found. The investigators could convince that a crime was done, but not to find a smoking gun, or to find what happened in reality. In time, all the collaborators pass away.
Nearly every criminal investigation in the world is solved either by:
1. Finding the weaker link, imposing leverage on that person, and thus incriminating all the involved.
2. Finding physical evidence, left due to the criminals doing a sloppy job.
3. A witness is alive and is not afraid to testify (risk of death).

The falsifiers are no street gang, and they do not fall in any of those criterias. They're not perfect, of course, and that's why we get to have a forum like this with plenty of evidence. But if a job is done well, you'd never find it.
Think how many crimes in the world were never discovered, and never will be.

I'm not sure I see what you mean. I don't think you are hoping for a court to correct the record. Or expecting the deceivers to be held to account.

Maybe you object to my saying understanding history is a fruitless task? This might be a question of definitions - what is 'reality', 'truth', 'knowledge'? I say that we can only know (in a strong sense) very little. Even our memories are fallible. I dreamt there was a tree in a place I know - when I was next there I fully expected to find it, I even searched for it but it was not there! If that's what can happen to personal experience, I hope you can see how when it comes to indirectly interpreting historical sources I think our handle on the truth is even less firm!

Anyway, your definitions of truth, reality, etc may be different to mine - what you call 'truth' or 'reality' might be what I would call 'best hypothesis'.

 

[Gladius]

I'm not sure I see what you mean. I don't think you are hoping for a court to correct the record. Or expecting the deceivers to be held to account.

Obviously not

Maybe you object to my saying understanding history is a fruitless task?

I was in fact adding to your statement, not objecting.

This might be a question of definitions - what is 'reality', 'truth', 'knowledge'? I say that we can only know (in a strong sense) very little. Even our memories are fallible. I dreamt there was a tree in a place I know - when I was next there I fully expected to find it, I even searched for it but it was not there! If that's what can happen to personal experience, I hope you can see how when it comes to indirectly interpreting historical sources I think our handle on the truth is even less firm!

Anyway, your definitions of truth, reality, etc may be different to mine - what you call 'truth' or 'reality' might be what I would call 'best hypothesis'.

So in short, I meant that it's seemingly not possible to find what happened in reality, aka the real history, because the cover up was done too well, and they're still taking care of the loose ends to this day. Even if a smoking gun was found, the belief in the power of the matrix is too strong among the masses and the public servants as well.