Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany

[busy.baci]

Why these people who supposedly lived in the Middle-East had a definiton for the Gauls is in itself a good conundrum. Is it becuase the Gauls/Galatians invaded what is now modern Turkey in that not precisely established period in history that historians say it was for certain the third century before Christ?

It is a good possibility that they conquered part of Anatolia (Turkey), Wiki depicts the expansion of Celtic culture as below.

Expansion of the Celtic culture in the 3rd century BC
​

I have another simple but radical possible explanation. The Gauls in Latin are called Galli, meaning roosters. And if someone is to pay attention to Roman Legionaries helms and red togas, Spartan's helms with red togas also, Athena's helm, and the famous Assyrian gods (Annunaki) their helms look all the same.

1.Romans Leginaires; 2.Assyrian gods/demigods

3. Achilles/Spartan in Greek pottery; 4. Athena goddess in Vienna; 5. Lady Liberty in New York​

They all look with the same helm in the semblance of a rooster. Could it possibly be that these people are all Gauls/Galli and history just splited them up into different empires, locations and place in time? This implies that Gauls are people who followed a single rule of law, or worshiping the same god, Athena in this case.

 

[Deleted member 37]

I have another simple but radical possible explanation. The Gauls in Latin are called Galli, meaning roosters.

Sasyexa told about that in his France - Biblical Israel thread (France - Biblical Israel), where he reported Alexey Khrustalyov's research. Here the main passages:

And during the Renaissance, the strange Franks for some reason began to associate the word "Gaul" with the word "rooster" and even made the latter a symbol of Gaul, not realizing that this is just an homonymy of gallus (in Latin means both a Gaul and a rooster).

To begin with, let's turn to Fasmer's dictionary and find in it the Old Russian word гологолить (gologolit‘): "to talk", Old Slavonic глаголъ (glagol) "word", глаголати "to speak", Czech hlahol "talk, speech", hlaholiti "to sound, to proclaim".

The double root seems to be related to the word голос (voice) and Middle Irish gall "glory; swan", Cymraeg galw "to call", Old Icelandic kalia "to call, to sing", Upper-Middle German kaizen, kelzen "to talk, to boast"; see Thorpe 41; Elquist 1, 435; Holthausen, Awn. Wb. 148; Berneker 1, 323; Meye - Vayan 31. A comparison with the Old Indian gargaras "type of a musical instrument" or Old Indian ghargharas "thundering, gurgling, noise" (see Berneker 1, 320; Meyer, Et. 229) is doubtful, because here “g” is of Indo-European origin, as in the Greek γαργαρίζω "gurgle". Hardly a better comparison with the Old Icelandic gala "to sing" (see галдётъ и галитъся), as well as with Armenian gai. galium "strepito, susurro" (from *ghl-ghl-); see Petersson, ArArmSt. 99.

Ukrainian голос, Belarusian голас, Old Slavonic гласъ φωνη, Bulgarian гласът, Serbo-Croatian niâc, Slovenian glâs, Czech. hlas, Polish glos, Upper-Sorbian hiös, Lower-Sorbian gîos. || Formation of -so is similar to Lithuanian garsas "sound", Old Indian bhäsä "speech, language", Lithuanian balsas "voice": bilti "to speak|| Middle Ossetian yalas "voice" (Hubschman, Osset. Et. 33), further, Old Icelandic kalia "to shout, to speak", Irish gall (*galno-) "famous", Cymraeg galw "to call, to summon"; see Fortunatov, AfslPh 4, 578; Berneker 1, 323; Trautman, BSW 77; Thorpe 42; Meyer, MSL 14, 373; Persson 852 (according to which, correlation to Latin gallus "rooster"; against see Walde - Hofm. 1, 580 and pp.); Stokes 107. Next, here is нагал "password".

Fasmer was unable not to point out the kinship of the Russian golos and the Latin gallus (rooster). This was above his Germanophilia and Russophobia.

Let's remember this magnificent passage and open the dictionary of Dahl, who wrote that the голосовик (golosovik) is "a bird with a good, loud voice; vocal."

I find this explanation extremely fascinating, whether it is true or not.

And the same thread shares a light, or maybe I should say a shadow, on the enigma of Gauls being those who 'ran into danger due to the waters of the flood'. Gladius, a Hebrew speaker, there talked about the possible meaning of this word in his language (France - Biblical Israel). You can see there's nothing in modern Hebrew pointing to the explanation given in the map. He cites prominent Jewish scholars such as Rashi (Rashi - Wikipedia), but nothing comes even closer to 'gaul' meaning what it's stated here. Here the passages where he mentions the various possible meanings in Hebrew:

The Jewish book describes the results:
"Lothair I (806-876 A.D) inherited Italia, and all of the GLILOT from the North Sea, to the Rhine river, and he named that country Lotharingia, still called until this day"
"And his brother Karlus, inherited all the country of TSARFAT" [France]

What's GLILOT? In Hebrew, it is the plural of Galil. It has double meaning: Galil can mean a roll (as in paper-roll), and can mean "a region".
In jewish scriptures, 'Galil' is sometime referred to as the Israeli Galil, and sometime as a noun for a region.
Rashi, a prominent French Jewish scholar, said the Galil is ALL of the holy land, since "all of the nations rolled into it".
So, we can see here some local distinction between "Galil" and "France", and also a clear recognition that even in 16th century, Tsar'fat meant the area of France, and that "Galil" doesn't actually mean that small area in Israel's north.

The Jewish book then says, after his victory:
"He then built his great fortress by the Rhine, (Sélestat), which he had named after his son - Gaal'ariom, whom after him is named the country: Gaal'er "געלר", even to this day. And though, at first, the country was named Frankia, from there the French (Tsar'fatim) came out... ...
.... but from that day, their names (Frankia, Tsarfat) were cancelled, and they were now Gaal'er."

Wiki mentions only 1 son for Charles: Bernard, an illegitimate child. Charles spent much energy legitimizing the child, without success.
He ended up 'dead in a ditch' like many illegitimates.
So, a strange story indeed. Gaaler/Galia is given to us being a name of a royal from 9th century, and is said to be the replacement for Frankia, and Tsar'fat (France), modern chronology however tells us the order should be: Galia -> Frankia -> France.

No Jewish writer/historian apparently ever pointed to this definition of 'gaul' given by Bonsignori and attributed to the Arameans and the Hebrews. Are Jews and Hebrews the same?

But in the last paragraph, talking about "the first Jewish book to focus on the history of France, Sefer Divrei haYamim, wrritten in late 16th century by Joseph haKohen, in Avignon", Gladius adds:

The book proceeds to describe how Noah gave birth to Japeth, who birthed Gomer, and the Franks are his sons. He jumps instantly to the late Roman period, describing the rise of Gaul. The interesting part is that he, probably, identifies the French, Spanish or the Ottomans, as directly related to hardships made on the Jews that are attributed to either the old testament period, or the early Roman period, supposedly more than a thousand years before he lived. He seems to have no knowledge of any chronology between the flood and the rise of Rome - that's when the Gauls appear, in his words.

"He seems to have no knowledge of any chronology between the flood and the rise of Rome - that's when the Gauls appear, in his words."

Is it possible that there was no gap in time between the 'rise of Rome' and the Flood? Is there some meaning to the Flood slightly preceding the rise of the Gauls? More info needed. @Gladius where are you? LOL

 

[SMKaos]

Why should there be Italy on a map of GERMANIA? If you look closely, you see that "Parte d'Italia" is indicated at the bottom of the map, but without detail, west of the "Mare Adriaticum", where it is supposed to be. Parts of modern Italy, at that time under German Imperial rule, are depicted in detail, like South Tyrol and the entire coast line up to Trieste. I am sure there is a detailed map of Italy to follow in this thread. Concerning the city names I just checked some parts of Germany and am amazed at the level of detail, there are even small settlements that can't have had much more than a few thousand inhabitants at the time indicated.

exactly, I also was completely astonished by the tremendous amount of details. One detail is the colour and how the cities and castles were displayed. White and with lots of towers and spires...I think this community know what I want to tell. Würzburg, Koblenz and all the other german "castles" aren´t mapped/displayed as middleage castles, more than hypersophisticated cities that are ringed by a wall. Where do you live Randolph?

 

[Deleted member 37]

Fifth map titled ‘Par d’Affrica nuoua, et Regno di Manicongo’ (New Part of Africa, and Kingdom of Manikongo - Manikongo - Wikipedia) by Stefano Bonsignori.

​

What reason moved Hercules (Ercole), son of Osiris Jupiter Just (Osiride Gioue Giusto), who ruled over Italy (Italia) and Spain (Spagna), to prohibit the navigation beyond the strait of Gibraltar (Gibilterra), it is unknown. But it is certain that his intention was excellent, because he thought and acted for the purpose of benefiting mankind, willing to achieve eternal glory by following this path. And he didn’t fail in his scope, since still today that three thousand years have passed, Poets (Poeti), Painters (Pittori) and Sculptors (Scultori) write about him and depict and sculpt his feats benefiting from it. The valiant and very cautious man, who had knowledge of the places beyond said strait, considered it was wise to forbid the commerce between our people and these people, considering the different mentality and actions of each, in order that the weak and simple-minded was not mistreated by the vigorous and shrewd. And this prohibition cast altogether into oblivion the knowledge of those men and those territories. But the wish for honour, together with the desire of conquest, led the Portoguese (Portoghesi) and others with their support, for about a hundred years now, to search for those places and people and disturb their peace. This in turn led the Ethiopians (Etiopi) to try to obtain supremacy not only over the inner lands but also over the coastal regions, and get rid of the Portoguese. For this reason they have move the capital from Garama to Zambare, wishing to keep these people in their usual peace, and acquaint them of their ancient, beautiful and saintly laws.



What to say about this map? Did you know Hercules was King of Italy and Spain? Is he the ‘Egyptian’ Hercules? Should be, since his father was Osiris. I’ve searched for some source in which Jupiter had the ‘Just’ nickname and found nothing. Jupiter was obviously considered the patron god of Justice, but the only similar appellation to him is the one in Rome, where he was called Jupiter Optimus Maximus.

So Hercules apparently had the possibility to erect his famous columns because he was actually the king of that land. Another more recent and sometimes legendary ruler comes to mind with that double title. But let’s cut short. We know why we are here.

‘And this prohibition cast altogether into oblivion the knowledge of those men and those territories.’

This is why we are here. Bonsignori credits Hercules with the disappearance of knowledge of the african territory. I wonder if it was only Africa which was cast into oblivion. Hercules was said to have travelled far across the ocean on a sort of cup-boat given to him by Helios. I wonder what countries he visited. Was that Ocean the Atlantic? Or was it the Nile, as it was stated on the map of Egypt to be one of the river's names?

Here we also have in any case a social reason for his actions, which would be probably considered ‘fasceeeest’ by the usual leftists and liberals who talk about internationalism (Internationalism (politics) - Wikipedia), globalization (Globalization - Wikipedia) and cosmopolitanism (Cosmopolitanism - Wikipedia):

‘The valiant and very cautious man, who had knowledge of the places beyond said strait, considered it was wise to forbid the commerce between our people and these people, considering the different mentality and actions of each, in order that the weak and simple-minded was not mistreated by the vigorous and shrewd.’

Well done Hercules, you have my respect!

But that’s not all. Bonsignori talks about the Ethiopian-Portuguese conflict with Ethiopia clearly being an important african power still in the XVI century. And something interesting is said:

‘For this reason they have move the capital from Garama to Zambare’.

The Ethiopians apparently expanded their Empire in order to oppose the Portuguese. I couldn’t come up with a solution for what cities shouls be considered these two nowadays. The only fitting Garama should be Germa (Germa - Wikipedia), now a ruined city in modern Lybia. Its position is not very fitting with Ethiopian history though and in any case it was said to be the capital of the Garamantes, not the Ethiopians.
If anybody has a better solution, let me/us know.

When it comes to Zambare, the map clearly shows this city south of the homonymous Lake Zambare, where the Zaire river flows. Since Zaire was the previous name of the Congo river, it seems fair to assume that lake was modern Lake Tanganyika (Lake Tanganyika - Wikipedia). The smallest Lake Mweru (Lake Mweru - Wikipedia) could be a secondary option. What happened to the city of Zambare? Did it changed name? Where was it exactly located?

 

[Gladius]

And the same thread shares a light, or maybe I should say a shadow, on the enigma of Gauls being those who 'ran into danger due to the waters of the flood'. Gladius, a Hebrew speaker, there talked about the possible meaning of this word in his language (France - Biblical Israel). You can see there's nothing in modern Hebrew pointing to the explanation given in the map. He cites prominent Jewish scholars such as Rashi (Rashi - Wikipedia), but nothing comes even closer to 'gaul' meaning what it's stated here. Here the passages where he mentions the various possible meanings in Hebrew:


But in the last paragraph, talking about "the first Jewish book to focus on the history of France, Sefer Divrei haYamim, wrritten in late 16th century by Joseph haKohen, in Avignon", Gladius adds:


"He seems to have no knowledge of any chronology between the flood and the rise of Rome - that's when the Gauls appear, in his words."

Is it possible that there was no gap in time between the 'rise of Rome' and the Flood? Is there some meaning to the Flood slightly preceding the rise of the Gauls? More info needed. @Gladius where are you? LOL

Hi, thanks for mentioning my texts. It's a research angle that I had put on pause because of how confusing & time consuming it is:
1. There aren't a lot of old Hebrew books about France. Some are written in incomprehensible Hebrew or Aramaic which only trained Orthodox Jews can read. I wish I could use one guy like that but these kind of studies are heretical for them.
2. The more I read those historical Jewish-POV texts the more I feel a "need to know" vibe from them, a concept that is very out there among Jewish elites. They have these principles that we know as 'masonic' but are probably 'jewish': to blend the text with non-backed facts that are inherited and copied by the lower ranks, and purposely 'outsource' them to the gentiles to pollute their books with false information. Like in what you wrote here:

No Jewish writer/historian apparently ever pointed to this definition of 'gaul' given by Bonsignori and attributed to the Arameans and the Hebrews. Are Jews and Hebrews the same?

They didn't point out, because it was probably whispered to him by a Jew, or he had it copied from a book made for gentiles. The non-Jews sought after such books written by Jews, from history to biology, because they did had a name for themselves as quality researchers, I just believe it mostly changed with the rise of Kaballah (14th cen.) and Sabbtai Zvi ("Saturnism", 17th cen.) which began to add 'secretive depths' to Judaism, teaching the paths of the "Secret" and the "Endless Light" and exposing Christians to it, and in order words, multiplied the levels of deception by a thousand.
In Jewish circles, there are those who are keepers of ancient secrets. This may be born out of them long serving as Kings' advisors and confidants. Many of those are what is known as Mekubal. (sort of Hebrew for 'Kabbalist'), the best of them trained from the age of 9 and 'refined' to purity until they have no ego and are able to hold secrets without ever telling them but to select few, or until the kabbalist councils decide what knowledge is permitted to be exposed.

Want to know how filtered everything we know of them is?
The founder of academic study of Kaballah (and specifically Sabbateans) is Gershom Scholem, a Jew born to a family of 'heretics', all further research done until today is based on his works. Why? Because it's obvious as day that he's the only one who got 'whitelisted' to do it. Somehow he's able to produce massive volumes of work on these subjects, first in the world, and none else can surpass it with new knowledge for many decades. You see, these people select who gets to write anything about them, including the bad stuff. Scholars innocently believe this Scholem was a 'curious boy' who pursued a passion.

So bottom line, Jews in middle ages were highly aware that the 'gnetiles want their knowledge' and they had some very smart 'spoon feeding' methods in practice. So when I'm researching this kind of thing, I don't know if I'm reading genuine perspectives or being spoon-fed by old Kabbalist trolls, so I kind of hit a dead end. But it will continue once I find new readable sources.

 

[Deleted member 37]

They didn't point out, because it was probably whispered to him by a Jew, or he had it copied from a book made for gentiles.

I have some problem to entirely accept this point of view. The problem is that the presumed inaccuracy is not only about the Bible but also about classic litarature. The impression I have is that they didn't read the Bible at all. How could a learned monk like Bonsignori write that a certain Oceanus was Noah's son? Where is it written in the Bible?
They claim Annio da Viterbo (Annio da Viterbo - Wikipedia) made up some of these stories. Why no one went to check the Bible to correct him? And as I said it was not only about the Bible, so I don't know if it's a jewish psy-op, even though one could say that Annio himself was a Jew messing up ancient history!

 

[Gladius]

I have some problem to entirely accept this point of view. The problem is that the presumed inaccuracy is not only about the Bible but also about classic litarature. The impression I have is that they didn't read the Bible at all. How could a learned monk like Bonsignori write that a certain Oceanus was Noah's son? Where is it written in the Bible?
They claim Annio da Viterbo (Annio da Viterbo - Wikipedia) made up some of these stories. Why no one went to check the Bible to correct him? And as I said it was not only about the Bible, so I don't know if it's a jewish psy-op, even though one could say that Annio himself was a Jew messing up ancient history!

Fairly, I have a hard time accepting with my own POV sometimes

I can help with another angle here.

For background:
The Jews have numerous of external texts spanning centuries, purposed to clarify biblical verses, and to add more background 'lore' to everything.
That's the Rabbinical principle, that the Bible is "insufficient" and has incomplete knowledge.
There are many texts that expand on genealogies, nations and kings, some considered accurate and some fantastical. Jews even had the custom of writing books aimed at debating each other.
There are tons of Jewish books of this kind that are lost. We know of them because books that are found, mention the unfound as sources. Those books were never recreated.

The angle is that Annio did read of this genealogy in an external Jewish book, that at the time was considered correct.
In rabbinical Judaism, the status of renowned rabbi scholars is highly elevated, to a mythical level, almost like Saints or Prophets. In a way, they invest more energy in their books rather than the Bible itself. It's not farfetched to thing that some of the Jewish sources available to the monk writers, were elevated to be "as accurate and relevant as the Bible itself" by the theological propaganda of the time.

In short: the Bible is LOTR and he was citing from the Silmarillion

 

[Deleted member 37]

Yes Gladius, it could be anything at this point with this method of descerning things. Don't want to be polemic here, just stating the fact that once a supernatural presumed knowledge and omniscience is created around a certain group, the Jews, it is consequencial that every single piece of information found in whatever text becomes 'Jewish' and therefore Jews become the ultimate judge of what is right and what is wrong, which is exactly what's happening in our modern age (not talking about you here). Certain people arrive at the point of not trusting anything and it seems to me a good point of arrival and the real objective operated with malicious intent.

So I prefer to have straightforward logic applied to things. In this case it is reported about the word 'gaul' possibly having a specific jewish meaning, thing that seems to be out of the question though. Bonsignori gives also other explanations, whether true or not. The impression I have is that he's talking, like many others, about some history which was not specifically jewish, but it became through the course of time.

I would address as a possible cause the cultural seclusion in which the jewish books were compiled and the persistent will in mantaining a racial distinction within the group. The outcome is a sort of uniqueness and deepness that seems out of the question when compared to other modern cultures. And still other cultures did exist, more ancient than the jewish one, so this kind of maps and people like Annio could very well be a window to that old culture/knowledge.
Unique literature plus money is the cocktail we drink on a daily basis.

If you ever succeed in reading that book, let me know what that quote meant!

 

[busy.baci]

The way Bonsignori is passing history knowledge through map's description is really unique, straight forward and captivating. The story of Heracles and other tales from "The Iliad" get even better with the rest of the maps he draw and pass on with the historical events on each one of them. I won't spoil anything for the readers, I can only tell that's it's worthy understanding the course of past events. This should be really interesting. I did question my self the validity and the authenticity of the maps, or the motives and potential external influences on Bonsignori, but would be better for the conclusions to be formed at the end of the thread.

I don't know, but I have a feeling that the maps might disappear from internet because of magic. Let's download them all as soon as you Silveryou are posting them, I tried different magic tricks to download them but I couldn't succeed.

 

[SMKaos]

Yes I believe it's highly possible. The Wise Up dude on YT continuously talks about these things and possibly others too (don't know about the wood part). There's something similar in Italy in the town of Terracina, where according to an illustrated book from 1835 by Alexis-François Artaud de Montor the Palace of Theodoric the Great was located (1835 - Book Illustrations: Alexis-François Artaud de Montor). Similar 'melt-down' or 'collapsed' structures (or whatever they were and whatever happened).

edit: Oh! And above the structure in Terracina they say there was a temple to Jupiter Anxur (Tempio di Giove Anxur - Wikipedia). Isn't it funny?

I was in Sperlonga back in 2015 and visited also the temple on the mountain in Terracina due to the fact that the wife of my brother have a flat in Sperlonga. Quite impressive view from there, especially in the night. I got attracted by these structures my whole life but couldn't explain why. Nowadays I solved plenty of the riddles of ancient civilisations and became more open minded to who have could built this. Its a bit like intuition in my opinion. Which threads we follow through this process of awakening and how information finds the way to our consciousness...let the flow of interest and fascination lead us to a future where resets can free people instead of amnesia.

 

[Deleted member 37]

Sixth map titled ‘Grecia’ by Stefano Bonsignori.

​

Greece (Grecia) was first called Hellas (Ellade), and comprised that small piece of land which is opposite to Euboea, today called Negroponte, until it took its current name after Graecus (Greco), its ancient prince. It later expanded and had the Ionian (Ionio) and Aegean (Egeo) seas as its limits. In the scientific studies and in the most noble arts it exceeded all nations, and in military valour it was inferior to no one before the greatness of the Roman (Romano) empire, and it dominated many parts of Asia and Europe (Europa). And even if troubled by civic discord, even if it was attacked by the Parthians (Parti), the Egyptians (Egitij) and the Scythians (Sciti), it defended itsef valiantly until it was overcomed by the Romans who, grateful for the benefits received from its laws and sciences, left it in its freedom. After Constantine (Const.no) moved with sinister omen the capital of the empire in Byzantium (Bisantio), renamed by him Constantinople (Constant.li), it was harassed several times by the Hungarians (Vngari), Russians* (Rossi), Bulgarians (Bulgari) and Saracens (Saracini). Until it was finally oppressed by the Turkish (Turchesca) tyranny, so that today nothing remains of its former glory other than the name, since the Barbarians (Barbari) destroyed those ancient wonders, and every thing turned upside down both in the ancient territories of its regions and the original names** of the places.

* In a previous post the term Rascia was used for the territory roughly corrsponding to modern Serbia (Rascia - Wikipedia). Therefore these Russians could be identified as Serbians, even though I don’t know why they weren’t called by their proper name!

** Another possible translation is ‘...and the languages of those places’, because the term possibly indicating names/languages is ‘voci’, ‘voices’ in english. They are both viable because a change in language can result in a change of names of the places.



First of all I want to address a certain pattern followed by Bonsignori when it comes to the origin of peoples. We had Tuisto (Tuisto - Wikipedia), ancestor of the Germans (Deutsch), Aegyptus (Aegyptus - Wikipedia), giving his name to Egypt, Celtus (Galate – Celtus - Wikipedia), ancestor of the Gauls and now Graecus (Graecus - Wikipedia), giving his name to Greece.
The author says the Greeks were called Hellenes, as much as the Germans were called Deutsch and the French were called Gauls. But is it true that the Hellas changed its name into Greece? It is certain that Deutsch is the original name for the Germans and in any case Tuisto is clearly the inverted ‘latinised’ spell of Deutsch. I saw French maps reporting ‘Gaul’ as the name of the country in the 16th-17th century, with Ile-de-France being the name of the region of the capital. And when it comes to Greeks it is a well established fact that this name was the Latin one, while Hellenes was the original. If that’s so then we are looking at stories crafted in a Latin environment.

What to say other than this? The rest is pretty standard. Greece is certainly one of the biggest historical question marks. There were certainly Hellenes on its shores but its history is really messed up and it’s entirely possible that not all events really happened in that time and in that place played by those actors. There’s a lot of ancient place names newly attributed to localities which bore different names ‘till few decades ago. But at the same time something really happened here, as much as Egypt and other famous countries.

That said, how could one confidently place Troy (Troia) in that position? And why Troy, if its name was Ilion?

 

[SMKaos]

Sixth map titled ‘Grecia’ by Stefano Bonsignori.

View attachment 23279
​

Greece (Grecia) was first called Hellas (Ellade), and comprised that small piece of land which is opposite to Euboea, today called Negroponte, until it took its current name after Graecus (Greco), its ancient prince. It later expanded and had the Ionian (Ionio) and Aegean (Egeo) seas as its limits. In the scientific studies and in the most noble arts it exceeded all nations, and in military valour it was inferior to no one before the greatness of the Roman (Romano) empire, and it dominated many parts of Asia and Europe (Europa). And even if troubled by civic discord, even if it was attacked by the Parthians (Parti), the Egyptians (Egitij) and the Scythians (Sciti), it defended itsef valiantly until it was overcomed by the Romans who, grateful for the benefits received from its laws and sciences, left it in its freedom. After Constantine (Constno) moved with sinister omen the capital of the empire in Byzantium (Bisantio), renamed by him Constantinople (Constantli), it was harassed several times by the Hungarians (Vngari), Russians* (Rossi), Bulgarians (Bulgari) and Saracens (Saracini). Until it was finally oppressed by the Turkish (Turchesca) tyranny, so that today nothing remains of its former glory other than the name, since the Barbarians (Barbari) destroyed those ancient wonders, and every thing turned upside down both in the ancient territories of its regions and the original names** of the places.

* In a previous post the term Rascia was used for the territory roughly corrsponding to modern Serbia (Rascia - Wikipedia). Therefore these Russians could be identified as Serbians, even though I don’t know why they weren’t called by their proper name!

** Another possible translation is ‘...and the languages of those places’, because the term possibly indicating names/languages is ‘voci’, ‘voices’ in english. They are both viable because a change in language can result in a change of names of the places.



First of all I want to address a certain pattern followed by Bonsignori when it comes to the origin of peoples. We had Tuisto (Tuisto - Wikipedia), ancestor of the Germans (Deutch), Aegyptus (Aegyptus - Wikipedia), ancestor of the Egyptians, Celtus (Galate – Celtus - Wikipedia), ancestor of the Gauls and now Graecus (Graecus - Wikipedia), ancestor of the Greeks.
The author says the Greeks were called Hellenes, as much as the Germans were called Deutch and the French were called Gauls. But is it true? It is certain that Deutch is the original name for the Germans and in any case Tuisto is clearly the inverted ‘latinised’ spell of Deutch. I saw French maps reporting ‘Gaul’ as the name of the country in the 16th-17th century, with Ile-de-France being the name of the region surroundinf the capital. And when it comes to Greeks it is a well established fact that this name was the Latin one, while Hellenes it’s the original. If that’s so then we are looking at stories crafted in a Latin environment.

What to say other than this? The rest is pretty standard. Greece is certainly one of the biggest historical question marks. There were certainly Hellenes on its shores but it’s history is really messed up and it’s entirely possible that not all events really happened in that time and in that place played by those actors. There’s a lot of ancient place names newly attributed to localities which bore different names ‘till few decades ago. But at the same time something really happened here, as much as Egypt and other famous countries.

That said, how could one confidently place Troy (Troia) in that position? And why Troy, if its name was Ilion?

a really interresting side fact is that Deutsch, Teutonen, Gotisch (gothic), allemand, allemannen...nearly every word for the germans in nearly every language stands for god, godly or the men of god. Deutsch as we call ourselves comes perhaps from the latin word Deus.

 

[Deleted member 37]

Deutsch

I always forget the S... damn!

a really interresting side fact is that Deutsch, Teutonen, Gotisch (gothic), allemand, allemannen...nearly every word for the germans in nearly every language stands for god, godly or the men of god. Deutsch as we call ourselves comes perhaps from the latin word Deus.

This is one of the most intriguing aspects to me. What I think, and I'm guessing here, is that two traditions merged and the actions of the Goths came to be known as the actions of God. A fine example is the title 'scourge of God', flagellum dei, applied to Attila and Totila (who are the same guy in my opinion). 'Germanic' people were mostly Arians, therefore they were not prone to an abstract God as it was apparently done by mediterranean 'christians'. In the process of conversion the very material 'Goth' could become God and then the actions of the first were comprised in the narrative of the second. Just guessing here (better to repeat it).

An interesting thing I noticed sometime ago is that the Roman emperor Vespasian was called 'rach gotes' in the Arch of Maximilian (Arch of Glory of Imperator Maximilian I). His name was Titus Vespasian: Titus, Attila, Totila?!?! Super-guessing here, but in the germanic legends about Attila it seems that Romans never appear. Am I right? How is it possible? And by the way, the name 'Etzel' attributed to Attila is very similar to that of Attila's Roman enemy 'Flavius Aetius', who was a Flavian exactly like Vespasian!

 

[SMKaos]

I always forget the S... damn!

This is one of the most intriguing aspects to me. What I think, and I'm guessing here, is that two traditions merged and the actions of the Goths came to be known as the actions of God. A fine example is the title 'scourge of God', flagellum dei, applied to Attila and Totila (who are the same guy in my opinion). 'Germanic' people were mostly Arians, therefore they were not prone to an abstract God as it was apparently done by mediterranean 'christians'. In the process of conversion the very material 'Goth' could become God and then the actions of the first were comprised in the narrative of the second. Just guessing here (better to repeat it).

An interesting thing I noticed sometime ago is that the Roman emperor Vespasian was called 'rach gotes' in the Arch of Maximilian (Arch of Glory of Imperator Maximilian I). His name was Titus Vespasian: Titus, Attila, Totila?!?! Super-guessing here, but in the germanic legends about Attila it seems that Romans never appear. Am I right? How is it possible? And by the way, the name 'Etzel' attributed to Attila is very similar to that of Attila's Roman enemy 'Flavius Aetius', who was a Flavian exactly like Vespasian!

way to much "conspiracy theory" for most of the humaoids in our realm but I love to hear such guessings!!!

also, there are two so called "countries of Saint Micheal" . Jesus is according to the biblical explanation saint Micheal/ der heilige Michel in jiddisch [jewish] Language and german). These two countries are Israel and Germany. It is completely mind boggling to see that in our endtimes, if I may use the strange descriptions of bible textes in which I usually don´t believe due to the fact of their maybe unreliable heritance, the faith of these two countries collide, as we have seen since the world war starts and had never ended officially until today!

Second thing is that there was/is a dialect of german called jiddisch which can be understood by some of us germans but sounds different, a bit like dutch compared to german...only the international jewish community in the US, Russia and German Empire/third Reich/republic of Weimar spoke jiddish in the first half of last century. The other ones in the mediterranean area spoke hebrew or a dialect of that (I´m not exactly sure).

And now we, exactly as our colleagues in the north as sweden, denmark and norway (all the aryan races of europe except the russians), open our boarders with welcome gifts and have taken millions over millions refugees from the arabic region. It began with the turks in the 80ies and 90ies (6 Millions), people from syria (1,5 Mio. since 2015) and now lots of north africans, Afghanic people and others. Hundreds of NGOs payed by german tax payers make commercials and print books to help them find the way to north europe and how to get social aides...thats the reason why we had the situation at lago di Garda before a few days...I think I don´t have to explain it to you.

The boss of our government is imaged hundreds of times with the past two to three chancellors, Bundes-presidents and finance ministers. He is called Yehuda Teichtal, and guess to which states he belongs...

And sorry for being a bit off topic, but as our predecessors vanished through ghostly hands, so the italians, germans, swedes and others will follow within the next few years and decades. We see direct in front of our eyes, how the elite manage to end empires within a few years without even leaving a doubt in the brainwashed 90 percent of the population. And if it is as easy today, how easy was it in the centuries 16th to 20th???

 

[Deleted member 37]

way to much "conspiracy theory" for most of the humaoids in our realm but I love to hear such guessings!!!

I don't know if it's conspiracy though. All those germans apparently took Roman habits, Roman military knowledge, Roman religion and even Roman clothes. This is not stuff I'm making up, it's the historians themselves that say it with images to prove it. So when I read about Etzel and other 'legendary' germanic characters, and not a word is spent about the Romans, I get the feeling that maybe they were the Romans themselves, which, as historians say, is partially true even in official history.

And if it is as easy today, how easy was it in the centuries 16th to 20th???

New narratives are continuously created. We live in the epoch of color-blindness now upgraded into gender-blindness. At that time they had different problems. What is hidden under the term Arian is definitively not a christian priest of jewish origin. This is the bedtime tale told by christians when the damage was already done. The invasion of Europe is already called an 'immigration crisis'. This is what people are told and will pass down in history.
Color-blind people should understand how much is important to mantain their own peculiar racial character, and if they don't have one, then it's better to search for it. Slavery was the end result of conquest and destruction of the nation, color-blindness is a kind of reprogramming for the slave.

We need a new Hercules for sure.

 

[Gladius]

Second thing is that there was/is a dialect of german called jiddisch which can be understood by some of us germans but sounds different, a bit like dutch compared to german...only the international jewish community in the US, Russia and German Empire/third Reich/republic of Weimar spoke jiddish in the first half of last century. The other ones in the mediterranean area spoke hebrew or a dialect of that (I´m not exactly sure).

Yiddish was/is spoken by Ashkenazi Jews, from Germany to Russia. It was particularly used by Germanic or Slavic Jews.
The other Jews are the Sephardic (lit. "Spaniards") and they mainly spoke Ladino, a Romance-Jewish dialect. Ladino was spoken in France, Spain, Italy and all the way to the Balkan, Turkey, and North Africa.
Even in Northern lands such as England and Holland, Ladino was mostly spoke as Sephardic Jews migrated there.

Hebrew was not used as a spoken language in antiquity or middle ages, only by the nationalistic revival in 19th century.
Arabic Jews used local forms of Judeo Arabic dialects.

 

[Deleted member 37]

Seventh map titled ‘Trogloditica’ by Stefano Bonsignori.

​

The ancients wrote few things about the Troglodytae land and so inhuman that generate horror. But it seems not to be the case, since Moses (Mose), fighting to take Meroe as a general for the Pharaoh (Faraone), and failing to capture it by force, finally took it thanks to the passionate love felt by the daughter of the King (Re) of the Troglodytae, after hearing about the reputation of his virtues. Won over by his virtues, she married him and gave him the City (Città). There cannot be cruelty where virtue itself is so strong. Some Troglodytae are faithful to the law of Christ (X.o) and some to that of Mohammed (Maometto). They are under the rulership of the great Lord of the Ethiopian (Sig.re degli Etiopi) called Prester John (Prete Iani). The Portoguese (Portoghesi) took over a number of lands along these shores, some of which they still possess.



For those who don’t know where it comes from, the tale of Moses and the daughter of the King of the Ethiopians is told by Flavius Josephus in his ‘Jewish Antiquities’. But here the King of the Ethiopians becomes the King of the Throglodytae. There is no possibility that Bonsignori was confusing them with each other, since he already mentioned the Ethiopians various times. So a question arises again. Was he reporting random information without caring of what he was writing? Did some Jews suggested the wrong tale out of pure maliciousness? Was he a Jew himself and decided to trick everybody, even though nobody really cared about what he was doing and in a matter of decades everybody forgot his maps?
The only alternative is that various tales were told of that not-official event and this was one of the various versions. And by the way, did Flavius Josephus really lived in the epoch we now think he lived?

The map is first and foremost about modern Somalia and parts of Ethiopia. Meroe, traditionally placed on the Nile, is not depicted on the map, and rightly so.

‘Troglodytae’ (Troglodytae - Wikipedia) was certainly not the real name of those people, since it litterally means ‘cave dwellers’ in the Greek language. So I want to share an observation, or maybe I should say a doubt, that I have.
We know that cave dwellers were depicted on many maps more or less of the same period in the northern parts of the world, like northern Russia and Scandinavia. A thought came to my mind. What if the legendary ‘trolls’ (Troll - Wikipedia) of scandinavian folk tales were in fact 'troglodytaes'? What if the word 'troll' itself is a contraction for 'cave dwellers'? Strangely enough, the african troglodytae evock images of club-bearing wild men (Wild man - Wikipedia) and dwarves (Dwarf (folklore) - Wikipedia) inhabiting the underground, both present in African and Scandinavian maps. I wonder if some tales originally coming from northern Europe migrated to Africa. Strabo himself talked about troglodytae in Scythia Minor, so it is clear that it was a generic term applied to people with a specific way of living, rather than (obviously) being the name of a specific african tribe.
Who knows…

And last but not least, Prester John (Prester John - Wikipedia) makes here is cameo appearance and seems to be a title more than an individual. Not much to say about that, but it could be already enough!

 

[busy.baci]

Moses (Mose), fighting to take Meroe as a general for the Pharaoh (Faraone), and failing to capture it by force,

Now this is interesting, Moses being a general of the Pharaoh is new to me.

Edit: Since I found this fact interesting I added a link "Moses, General in Egypt" that explains it by Flavius Josephus in his "Jewish Antiquities" as you already said.

There is the story of the black Jews of Ethiopia which some of them might have been converted to Christianity later on, they were called Kayla or Beta-Israel which is being explained in the below article. The article speculates about different ways these Jewish believers might have formed from the Jewish tribes, and their number reaching a population in a couple of millions.

Origins of Ethiopia’s Black Jews

Quotes:

They observe the Sabbath as indicated in the Torah, eat only kosher food, pray in straw-roofed synagogues, and use only unleavened bread during the seven days of Passover. Yet they also offer animals in sacrifice and have priests and deacons appointed by the community. Their neighbors call them Falashas, which means strangers, wanderers, or exiles.

No one knows for certain how Judaism reached this part of Africa, though today the Chief Rabbis of both the Ashkenazi and the Sephardic Jews recognize these indigenous Ethiopians, members of the Agau ethnic group, as authentic Jews. Still, many theories abound on how the Jewish faith came to these Agau tribes. Though some tend to sound far-fetched, these speculations are based on Judaic history, Scripture, and religious observance.

It is almost impossible that Jews were not in Ethiopia before 70 C.E. Clearly Ethiopian Jews knew nothing until recent years about either the Babylonian or Jerusalem Talmud. Their knowledge only of the earlier books of the Old Testament (until long after Christianity reached Ethiopia) and the fact that they do not celebrate such holidays as Purim suggest that they must have been cut off from the rest of Judaism much earlier.

Some theorists trace the Ethiopian Jews’ origins to the Exodus from Egypt, claiming that a band of Hebrews headed south rather than across the Sinai desert, ending up in Ethiopia, the land of Moses’ Cushite (Ethiopian, perhaps) wife mentioned in Numbers 12:1.

The Wiki page about Troglodytae states also different explanations for that word. I know, Wiki is not to be trusted, but many members constantly refer to it for historical events.

Quotes:

In Herodotus​

Herodotus referred to the Troglodytae in his Histories as being a people hunted by the Garamantes in Libya. He said that the Troglodytae were the swiftest runners of all humans known and that they ate snakes, lizards, and other reptiles. He also stated that their language was unlike any known to him, and sounded like the screeching of bats.[4] Alice Werner (1913) believed (in passing) that this was a clear allusion to the early Khoisan, indigenous inhabitants of Southern Africa, because their languages contain distinctive click sounds.[5]

In Diodorus​

In ancient writing, apparently the best known of the African cave-dwellers were the inhabitants of the "Troglodyte country" (Ancient Greek: Τρωγλοδυτική) on the coast of the Red Sea, as far north as the Greek port of Berenice, of whom an account was preserved by Diodorus Siculus from Agatharchides of Cnidus, and by Artemidorus Ephesius in Strabo. They were a pastoral people, living entirely on the flesh of their herds, or, in the season of fresh pasture, on mingled milk and blood.[6]

In Claudius Aelianus​

In his work On the Characteristics of Animals, Claudius Aelianus mentions that the tribe of Troglodytae are famous and derive their name from their manner of living. He also adds that they eat snakes.[1] Furthermore, he wrote that Troglodytes believe that the king of the beasts is the Ethiopian Bull, because it possesses the courage of a lion, the speed of a horse, the strength of a bull, and is stronger than iron.[12]

Many sources on that wiki page are implying The Red Sea, Ethiopia and South Africa etc. as possible locations for the lands of the Troglodyte.
Personally I remember that this particular name is given to people who speak in a certain way with certain vocals, sounds and phonetics, but If I'm correct, the word "Troglodita" in Italian is being used in a derogatory way for people who have strange customs and behaviors different from the locals.

 

[Deleted member 37]

I know, Wiki is not to be trusted, but many members constantly refer to it for historical events.

The problem with wiki is to blindly believe in what is reported, expecially when it comes to modern science, politics, economy etc.. But when it comes to citations from authors it should be reliable, at least as a reference point.

Personally I remember that this particular name is given to people who speak in a certain way with certain vocals, sounds and phonetics, but If I'm correct, the word "Troglodita" in Italian is being used in a derogatory way for people who have strange customs and behaviors different from the locals.

'Troglodita' in Italian is synonymous to a backward not intelligent person. It is almost interchangeable with 'cavernicolo' which in fact means 'caveman' and is represented in the same way, club in hand included.
It seems that the stories about wildmen began the basis for 'modern' prehistoric cavemen. I think there's many things to dig here. There are multiple representations of wild people from the 'middle-ages'. I don't believe it's just a legend or a fable.

 

[ViniB]

The problem with wiki is to blindly believe in what is reported, expecially when it comes to modern science, politics, economy etc.. But when it comes to citations from authors it should be reliable, at least as a reference point.


'Troglodita' in Italian is synonymous to a backward not intelligent person. It is almost interchangeable with 'cavernicolo' which in fact means 'caveman' and is represented in the same way, club in hand included.
It seems that the stories about wildmen began the basis for 'modern' prehistoric cavemen. I think there's many things to dig here. There are multiple representations of wild people from the 'middle-ages'. I don't believe it's just a legend or a fable.

Troglodita in portuguese is equal to savage or a person with no manners. According to Vatican aproved crap story is how the brazilian natives were called. Not sure yet what to make of the maps, but they are unique, can't discard the possibility of an obvious manipulation of timelines/places/events by your question of the origin of the deutch/ashkenaz.........