Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany

[HELLBOY]

This is Fomenko's opinion, when he says that the Mamluks were the Cherkassian Cossacks ( EMPIRE. History: fiction or science? Volume 5 ). This is very controversial as he uses the names of nations in a very vague way, especially when he has to make something fit his own chronos, in my opinion.

It's fascinating to imagine the Pirates as the Tartarian fleet, but I'm not so sure about Fomenko's reconstruction. It seems very skewed to me, especially when it combines Russians, Slavs, Muscovites, Tartars and Scythians (and possibly others) as a singular undistinguished entity. You have to rule out too many things to believe that!

This time I did not rely on Fomenko but on Wikipedia:

In 1382, the Circassian Mamluks seized the Mamluk throne of Egypt and the Buryid dynasty took over the country. The Mongols, who started invading the Caucasus in 1223, destroyed some of the Circassian territories and most of the Alans. Circassia - Wikipedia

These men were called Pirates perhaps by the victor, because if you notice the type of Hussar Warriors were born as a pirate fighting mode according to wiki.

According to Webster's dictionary, the word hussar comes from Hungarian huszár, which in turn originates from medieval Serbian husar (Cyrillic: хусар, or gusar, Cyrillic: гусар), meaning bandit (because the tactics of the early hussar shock troops used against the Ottoman army resembled those of bandits; in modern Serbian the meaning of gusar is limited to sea pirate) Hussar - Wikipedia

It seems that the Hungarian fighting style spread to other nations such as Poland, Germany, Prussia, Spain, France, Russia, Sweden, Austria, they were in the American war of independence, Mexico, Peru, Chile, Argentina, etc.
What if it was the type of warrior of the previous order?

They could also have even better weaponry than we are told.
SH Archive - 18th-19th centuries: Bazookas, Rockets, Comets and Destroyed Cities

This is just a thought of mine, from time to time I like to relate certain things, in Mexico there was another type of warrior called chinaco (from where the famous Mexican charro was born) his ideal partner "la china poblana", another type of warrior was the Dragon de Cuera, the warriors were born here in America who maintained order in North America in California and New Mexico and so on.
SH Archive - Fou-Sang & 1870s board game: Voyage from New York to San Francisco upon the Union Pacific Railroad

Also in one of the maps I read the word China north of the Aztec capital.

Egnazio Danti (1564-1575)

 

[Deleted member 37]

Thirteenth map titled ‘Parte dell’Agisimba’ by Stefano Bonsignori.

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Once Geographers (Geografi) used to add to countries they did not know horrible forests, seas impossible to navigate and fierce mountains. The historians gladly helped them by describing more than bestial human habits, very cruel animals and extremely dangerous obstacles, and with all these things they hid the truth and concealed many beautiful countries, depriving of such good news and scaring men from seeking them. And to such fears the opinions of the Philosophers (Filosofi) and the Astronomers (Astronoi) were added, who didn’t want to be possible to live between the tropics and below the equator due to the extreme heat, and not even within the arctic and antarctic circles due to the extreme cold. And this opinion persisted so much in the minds of men that still in the time of Leo the Tenth Pontifex Maximus (Lione Decimo Pontefice Massimo) there were keen debates. And the Philosophers and the Astronomers of that time didn’t want to publicly embrace the truth, which was soon after found by the Portuguese (Portoghesi). Looking for honour and riches, they passed over the columns placed by Hercules (Ercole), the very ancient King of Spain (Re di Spagna), and helped others to do the same. And sailing along these shores, they discovered these beautiful lands and disturbed the peace of these people by building new forts and using them for new arts.

Bonsignori is not ok with stories about Blemmyes and other diverse ‘creatures’ told in ‘medieval’ and ‘ancient’ literature. And he justifies their creation connecting it in some way with the limits imposed by Hercules. Supposedly a measure to prevent people to sail away towards the horizon and discover new lands. The thing that does not add up though is the fact that similar tales were taught about almost every region outside the Mediterranean/European ‘basin’. It seems there was no Hercules to prevent people from leaving in other directions.

In any case we open with some bomb. Bonsignori says the philosophers and astronomers were wrong (and it was settled in his time) when they taught people life was impossible between the tropics, below the equator and… inside the polar circles! Both of them!!! We supposedly are in the year 1580 AD.

And here we have another strange anachronism. Pope Leo X (Pope Leo X - Wikipedia) is called Pontifex Maximus (Pontifex maximus - Wikipedia)!
Now this is very strange since the title of pontiff is still used to refer to bishops in the Catholic Church, but there is no way anybody would use this specific Latin title applied to a Church leader, since that title is explicitely pagan and bore by eminent politicians of the curia, the assembly, term still used today to indicate the ‘spiritual’ body assisting the Pope/Pontiff…
And what about these debates supposedly going on during his time? Nothing to be found.

Finally, what kind of new arts did the Portuguese accomplish through African people? Show your innermost conspiracy facet!

 

[Deleted member 37]

Also in one of the maps I read the word China north of the Aztec capital.

Egnazio Danti (1564-1575)

We still have to go there but yes it's China... unless you have a small cute dog in your house which makes a lot of noise!
Which is an interesting aspect in itself... another one. Could China be confused with Chihuahua in some way? You are the Mexican here so you tell me!

For the rest of your points I have the feeling it's not enough. I mean yes there's some interesting digging on your part, like the pirate flag used by cavalry, but I don't know if it leads where I'm imagining it should lead. Maybe we should search for the official explanation and put it under scrutiny. Don't know where to start though.

edit: btw, I almost missed the possible connection with the dogs you always show. If Chihuahua and China are the same then the canine head people (cynocephaly) coulod really be the Chinese as I've always thought. Possible European Latin speaking explorers confused the word China with Latin canis. This combined with the different bone structure of oriental faces compared to Europeans could lead to a misunderstanding, and Chinese faces became canine heads: Chihuahua-China-canis.

 

[HELLBOY]

We still have to go there but yes it's China... unless you have a small cute dog in your house which makes a lot of noise!
Which is an interesting aspect in itself... another one. Could China be confused with Chihuahua in some way? You are the Mexican here so you tell me!

For the rest of your points I have the feeling it's not enough. I mean yes there's some interesting digging on your part, like the pirate flag used by cavalry, but I don't know if it leads where I'm imagining it should lead. Maybe we should search for the official explanation and put it under scrutiny. Don't know where to start though.

edit: btw, I almost missed the possible connection with the dogs you always show. If Chihuahua and China are the same then the canine head people (cynocephaly) coulod really be the Chinese as I've always thought. Possible European Latin speaking explorers confused the word China with Latin canis. This combined with the different bone structure of oriental faces compared to Europeans could lead to a misunderstanding, and Chinese faces became canine heads: Chihuahua-China-canis.

I don't really know why that place is called Chinao, but it is between Mexico City and San Miguel de Allende as far as I can see. It shouldn't be too far from Guanajuato or Jalisco, I also found the name on the Urbano Monte Map.
Composite: Tavola 1-60. (Map of the World) (with additional spheres and labels in the four corners).

• In the red text with the letter B, it seems to me that it says that the people there are very hairless and beardless, just like the dog in this same region. The Xoloitzcuintle Xoloitzcuintle - Wikipedia is a very special type of dog in America.

Xolotl volunteered to perform such a feat, even though it would involve transforming himself into a dog; the Xoloitzcuintle. Xolotl was represented as a man with the head of a dog, representing the face of the nocturnal Venus accompanying the sun on its journey to the underworld. After sunset, the sun died and fought with his help to be reborn at dawn. Since then, this animal became the favorite of the gods. When the goal was achieved, it appeared before the dreadful Mictlantecuhtli, the lord of Death, and gave him the prized bone. Then, the Xoloitzcuintle returned to the world of the living and the gods were able to create the first man and the first woman. The Mexica tradition pointed out that it had to be completely black, because if it presented stains on its body, this meant that it had already served the soul of another deceased person. In addition, for the Mexica people, the Xoloitzcuintle had the ability to ward off and protect homes from evil spirits, but as everything for them was duality, it also represented an evil side since it was identified with illness and physical deformities.

• In the yellow area with the letter A it says that the people there eat human flesh and all kinds of animals.

• In letter C it says that in that place there were trees so big that ships were made from a single piece of wood.

By the way, I almost missed the possible connection with the dogs that you always show.

Something similar that I found could be this information:

The Chichimeca people in the north of Mexico, it is supposed that the Chichimecas arrived at Tollan (Tula) where a priest who was called Quetzalcoatl reigned like their god, the Chichimecas were commanded by a warrior named Xolotl, curiously he was called the same as the god of death and the underworld and brother of Quetzalcoatl.

The Nahuatl name Chīchīmēcah (plural, pronounced [tʃiːtʃiːˈmeːkaʔ]; singular Chīchīmēcatl) means "inhabitants of Chichiman," Chichiman meaning "area of milk." It is sometimes said to be related to chichi "dog" Chichimeca - Wikipedia

Quetzalcoatl being the god of light, fertility, civilization, knowledge, the opposite of Xolotl. And everything points to the fact that there was a light-darkness duality before the arrival of the Mexica-Aztecs.
You can see how even Quetzalcoatl is represented with the face of a dog or very deformed and his skin is sometimes blue and bearded, both carrying a cross.
I had already shared a thread about Xolotl and Quetzalcoatl the brothers, the duality. This duality reminded me of blue Krishna and his dark skinned brother.
The secret of the twins Quetzalcoatl and Xolotl
The secret of the twins Quetzalcoatl and Xolotl

QUETZALCOATL

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QUETZALCOATL - XOLOTL

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I had the opportunity to read the book: Historia general de las cosas de Nueva España, they were direct impressions to the book and not PDF which I have not been able to find. Florentine Codex - Wikipedia

Where it talked about Quetzalcoatl, it said that first came the Chichimecs who later called themselves Toltecs which meant "great builders", which in wiki says something like this:

Toltec culture or Toltec civilization - term of Nahuatl origin that has several meanings, the main ones being 'dweller(s) of Tollan/Tula' ('Place of tules') or 'artist, civilized, master' (their self-designation is unknown). Toltec - Wikipedia

It is supposed that the Toltecs are the ones who gave civilization and knowledge to the warlike Aztecs, in fact it is said that the first Tlatoani or King, Emperor was Toltec, Acamapichtli.

In 1366 the Tepanec king Acolnahuacatl, in order to ensure the loyalty of the Mexica, accepts Acamapichtli (who was a Colhua prince of Coatlichan) on the throne of Tenochtitlan, thus initiating a new lineage for the latter city, which in turn will be proclaimed heir to the Toltec tradition. Acamapichtli - Wikipedia

I still remember describing these Toltec-Chichimecs as being the size of two men, big runners, who did not speak Nahuatl well and were rather ladino.

During the conquest, the Chichimecas were supposed to still rule the north of Mexico and actually all the people of the north were called Chichimecas because they were barbarians.

José de Acosta José de Acosta - Wikipedia , a Spanish Jesuit, anthropologist and naturalist who landed in America in 1571, for example, wrote in his Historia Natural de las Indias that the Chichimecas, the native peoples who occupied part of Mexico and reached as far as Potosí, were giants "who plucked the branches of the trees as we pluck lettuce".

CUAXÓLOTL, A CHICHIMECA DEITY?
Tonalámatl de Aubin (book of the tonalli or destinies of mystical character, that was property of the French collector Joseph Marius Alexis Aubin, Although they share their main assignment to Xólotl, deity of the pantheon of the Nahua, each one of them presents variants that show a great challenge of interpretation.
Xólotl, in his invocation of Cuaxólotl (head of Xólotl) with the Chichimecas and with the warlike activities.
Cuaxólotl, ¿una deidad chichimeca?

About san cristobal there are also interesting things like this:

He is venerated by both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as a martyr executed during the reign of Decius (Decius), emperor of Rome (who reigned from 249 to 251) or during the reign of the Roman emperor Maximinus Daya (Maximinus II Dacianus) (who reigned from 308 to 313).
Saint Christopher - Wikipedia

Catholics do not call him a dog's head but it is said that he had a hideous face.

His name means "bearer of Christ".

His famous legend, which is known especially in the West and could have been drawn from ancient Greek mythology (it would be the Christianization of the boat of Charon), I found some Etruscan murals where demons (blue) and angels appear, Caronte appears in a very peculiar way.

• The Tomb of the Blue Demons (Italian: Tomba dei Demoni Azzurri) is an Etruscan tomb in the Necropolis of Monterozzi near Tarquinia, Italy. It was discovered in 1985. The tomb is named after the blue and black-skinned demons that appear in a scene of the underworld.

• Charon, the Greek ferryman of the dead.

According to the legendary account of his life, Christopher was initially called Reprobus.
He was a Canaanite of 5 cubits in height (about 2.30 meters) and a fearsome face. After serving in the kingdom of Canaan, it occurred to him to go serve "the greatest king that ever lived." He went to serve the king who had the reputation of being the greatest but one day he saw that this king was sanctifying himself at the mention of the devil, But when he saw that his new master was turning away from a cross on the road he realized that he was afraid of Christ. A hermit then suggested to him that, because of his great size and strength, he could help Christ by helping people cross a dangerous river where people used to perish in the attempt. The hermit promised him that such service would please Christ.

St. Christopher is a very popular saint, especially for athletes, sailors and travelers (Christopher Columbus).

St. Christopher is the patron saint of many cities and towns around the world, including:

America and the Caribbean:

San Cristobal de las Casas (Mexico).
San Cristóbal de Alvarado (present-day Alvarado, Veracruz, Mexico).
San Cristóbal de Tlacotalpan (present-day Tlacotalpan, Veracruz, Mexico).
Locality of San Cristóbal (Bogotá, Colombia).
San Cristobal (Dominican Republic).
San Cristobal (Venezuela).
City of Jayaque, La Libertad (El Salvador).
District of Chepo (Panama).
St. Kitts Island (St. Kitts and Nevis).
Havana (Cuba).

Birthplace Unknown
Canaan (according to Catholic tradition).
Marmarica (according to the tradition of the Orthodox Church)

In the Gospel of St. Matthew (15:21-28) we see how Jesus worked a marvelous miracle for a Canaanite woman who insisted that he help her. In this story, we are presented with the story of a Canaanite woman, a Gentile and a foreigner, and for this reason she is despised and rejected by the Jews. But this does not bother Jesus, rather he attends to her, but only after a series of constant pleas. Jesus ends up comparing her to a little dog, but did Jesus insult the Canaanite woman by comparing her to a little pet? ¿Jesús insultó a la Mujer Cananea al compararla con un perrito?

a pagan Canaanite woman cried out to him in Jewish terms, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, son of David! My daughter has a very bad demon."
"My hour has not yet come." But the woman has great faith. She called Jesus "Lord" three times. It is a faith that is not only manifested in words but in action: "She came to prostrate herself before Jesus". Jesus resists: he does not want to be accused by the Jews of privileging the pagans, and he tells her: "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs".

HB:
All these things I present to you about Blemios, Cinocephalos, could be the way people referred to the Cananites for being Can (dog) although Kan in Maya is Snake. Above all, this medieval costumes very well documented by Greek and Roman historians, did they exist or not? what do you say? I only share with you this interesting data and similarities without doubt, you see Piri Reis putting Blemios and Cinocephalos in the Amazon. Maybe in the medieval era they did as Isabel de Toledo says, the American continent was more than known but at the same time it was a well kept secret among the elite, that's why they said that the gold was brought from Africa, Africa was America, more precisely from the gold mines of Castilla in Colombia.

SH Archive - Sodom and Gomorrah are at the bottom of the Dead Sea

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[Deleted member 37]

In the red text with the letter B, it seems to me that it says that the people there are very hairless and beardless, just like the dog in this same region. The Xoloitzcuintle Xoloitzcuintle - Wikipedia is a very special type of dog in America.

The text doesn't talk about dogs though.

All these things I present to you about Blemios, Cinocephalos, could be the way people referred to the Cananites for being Can (dog) although Kan in Maya is Snake. Above all, this medieval costumes very well documented by Greek and Roman historians, did they exist or not? what do you say?

To me it's still not enough. I see the path you are taking and hope it will lead somewhere.
The fact is that these ancient-medieval tales are not consistent and I also have doubts about the timeframe in which they were told.

 

[Deleted member 37]

Fourteenth map without a title (but it’s the Polar lands ‘imagined’ above Greenland) by Stefano Bonsignori. This one is in Latin so don’t expect a 1:1 translation.

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Land on the left:

• This channel has three accesses, every year it remains frozen for about three months. Its width is of 37 leagues.
• This island is the best and healthiest of all the northern lands.

Land on the right:

• Here are the Pygmies (Pigmei) who are four feet tall as those that in Greenland (Gronlandia) are called Skraelings (Serelirgers).

It makes sense to me that we are more or less talking about the territory nowadays called Nunavut (Nunavut - Wikipedia), inhabited by Inuit people, once called Skraelings by Europeans. The island inhabited by the Skraelings could be Ellesmere Island (Ellesmere Island - Wikipedia).
Since the island on the left is the healthiest, it must be the one where King Arthur led his expedition in order to colonise it, nowadays considered a fable.
The width of the channel, said to be 37 leagues (Roman leagues presumably), should be of about 82 km (51 miles).

​

So where is the very high black rock/cliff (Rupes nigra et altissima)?

Let me know if it makes sense to you or if we are talking about submerged lands.

 

[Deleted member 37]

Fifteenth map without a title (but it’s the Polar lands ‘imagined’ on top of Siberia) by Stefano Bonsignori. This one is partially in Latin so don’t expect a 1:1 translation. The main text is in Italian though.

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Land on the left:

• Here live the Pygmies (Pigmei) who are four feet tall as those that in Greenland (Gronlandia) are called Skraelings (Serelirgers).
• The northern lands were unknown until Arthur the Briton (Arturo Brittanno), being informed about them, sent people to live there in the year of our Lord 1364 (S.re MCCCLXIIII), as it’s told by Jacobus Cnoyen from 's-Hertogenbosch (Iacopo Cnoien Buscoducente), who heard it in person from a priest working for the King of Norway (Re di Noruegia), who told him that in the year 1360 (MCCCLX) a certain English (Anglo) minorite mathematician ascended to these islands and measured everything with the astrolabe and described it with those calculations. Gerald of Wales (Giraldo Cambrense) wrote these things and many others too in his book titled De mirabilibus Hiberniae et miraculis (De Mirabilibe Ibernie)*.

Land on the right:

• In the northern parts there are the islands of Bargu that Marcus Venetus (M.s Ven.us)**, in Book 1, Chapter 61 (Lib. j Cap.o LXI), states are looking North (Aquiloem), so much that the pole star is seen to go down towards the south.

* According to the Italian wiki, this is just the second part (distinctio) of the book titled ‘Topographia Hibernica’ (Topographia Hibernica - Wikipedia). As a side note, a book by the same title 'De mirabilibus Hiberniae' was written by a certain Gilla Pátraic, also known as Patricius (Gilla Pátraic - Wikipedia).

** Marco Polo.

Many interesting things to say here as well.

We have a thread about the travels of Arthur in the polar regions (King Arthur in Hyperborea & The Arctic Mud Flood Cataclysm. - SH Archive Replies - King Arthur in Hyperborea & The Arctic Mud Flood Cataclysm.).
The interesting thing the map says is that Gerald of Wales (Gerald of Wales - Wikipedia) related these events in his ‘Topographia Hibernica’. How could Gerald, who died according to our chrono in 1223 AD, write about events happened in 1364 AD? It is said that Jacobus Cnoyen originally talked about it in his now lost book titled ‘Inventio Fortunata’, so Gerald has to be a later author. What’s the problem with our chronology?

That’s not all. Bonsignori lets us know that Marco Polo talked about the Bargu Islands in his famous book of his voyages. But he makes a stupid mistake that a hidden hand ‘corrected’ upon the map, as teachers do (did?) at school with their red pen (at least in Italy!). The teacher here tells us that Marco Polo talked about the ‘Bargu plains’ (not even islands, as Bonsignori says) in his Book 1, Chapter 49, while ignorant Bonsignori thinks it’s Book 1, Chapter 61. Nowadays Book 1 contains 55 Chapters.
Is it possible that some chapters of the original ouvre were ‘lost’?
… or maybe erased!

The description given about the position of these islands somewhat confirms my thoughts. Here Polo says that one can reach the Islands from Siberia, until at a certain point the pole star ‘goes south’. It could very well be a description of how, having reached the north pole and surpassed it coming from Siberia, one leaves behind the north star which therefore ‘goes south’, it 'goes down' towards the horizon (obviously it's not the north star going south, but the voyager who moves south after passing the pole). This could be a confirmation of the identity of these islands with the Nunavut Islands.

 

[EUAFU]

Stefano Bonsignori and Ignazio Danti were two central Italian cartographers from the sixteenth century. Their maps are located in Palazzo Vecchio, Florence.

About these maps it is officially said: “Of the 53 maps eventually completed, 30 were painted by Dominican friar Egnazio Danti (1564-1575) and 23 by Olivetan monk Stefano Bonsignori (1575-1586). Twenty-seven were taken from Ptolemy's Geographia (2nd century AD) though they were updated to reflect contemporary writing, while the others, including those of America, were taken from a variety of more recent sources.”
(Hall of Geographical Maps)

Here the links for the majority of the maps:
Stefano Bonsignori - Google Arts & Culture
Ignazio Danti - Google Arts & Culture

In this thread I’m going to translate as best as possible all the captions contained in their maps, which told a history quite different from the one told nowadays, be it correct or not. I will sometimes specify where I am not sure about the translation or whether there’s something interesting to say.

We start with the map titled ‘La Germania’ by Stefano Bonsignori.

View attachment 23216​

It is not to believe that people of so noble a Province (Provincia) such as Germania (Germany), handed down from the great father Noah (Padre Noe) to his dearest and youngest son Tuisto (Tuiscone), lived as grossly as their enemies the Romans (Romani) described. The Romans, not less than the Greeks (Greci), tried to destroy the ancient history of the other nations as much as their governments in order to enrich and honour themselves. Who is going to believe that the very stingy Romans spent so much money, lost so much time and shed so much blood without hoping for any prize? The Germans (Germani) lived peacefully, within their limits, defended by huge rivers, the extremely harsh mountains (alpe), a very dangerous sea, following their ancient laws and saintly habits. But when they grew in number they used to send out colonies, like the Cimbri (Cimbri), the Goths (Gotti), the Vandals (Vandali), the Alans (Alani), the Franks (Franconi), the Langobards (Longobardi), the Huns (Vnni) and others who got Spain (Spagna), France (Francia), Italy (Italia) and other provinces very busy, in order to expand their borders with the good orders of battle and then keeping them with caution, since they don’t want to serve others than themselves in their own territory. And they are very loyal to their own kind and also towards their allies. And since they are like brothers to each other, they left the name Teutons (Teutoni) and took that of Germans, and they have kept it.



Tuisto is in my opinion just the 'latinisation' of the word 'deutch' despite the explanations given on the wiki (Tuisto - Wikipedia). In modern Italian deutch people are called 'tedeschi'. So according to the caption the deutch people descended form a guy called Deutch who was the son of Noah. The wiki says the history of this biblical association was quite recent and attributed to a monk named Annio da Viterbo (Annio da Viterbo - Wikipedia). Tuisto was subsequently identified with Ashkenaz, son of Gomer, by James Anderson (c. 1679/1680 – 1739). Anderson is best known for his association with Freemasonry. (James Anderson (Freemason) - Wikipedia)

So I have two questions:
1. were deutch people really descended from Noah?
2. why should I believe in the identification of Deutch (Tuisto) with Ashkenaz, which apparently happened only in the 18th century?

Btw, the wiki on Annio da Viterbo is super-interesting since he is depicted as a fraud but at the same time talked about a different kind of history. It seems like they decided to censor his point of view!

"So I have two questions:
1. were deutch people really descended from Noah?
2. why should I believe in the identification of Deutch (Tuisto) with Ashkenaz, which apparently happened only in the 18th century?"

Noah and most of the Biblical characters are fictional. They never existed beyond mythology. Therefore, they cannot establish any descent.

Most of the Biblical text was written between 500 or 700 years before Jesus Christ.

And most of the texts have very clear and ideological objectives and fit into the culture of the time.

That people discuss these characters as if they were real is interesting, but will not produce real results. I also once believed that characters such as Noah, Moses, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob, David, Solomon were real, but by doing a little research and exegesis one comes to the conclusion that they are mythological characters.

 

[Deleted member 37]

That people discuss these characters as if they were real is interesting, but will not produce real results. I also once believed that characters such as Noah, Moses, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob, David, Solomon were real, but by doing a little research and exegesis one comes to the conclusion that they are mythological characters.

Same is true for any character in our books though. They are ink on paper, or paintings, or statues. By this reasoning one should throw everything in the trash can! Which is something somebody is already doing. I think it's just a matter of taste (not mine, to be fair).

 

[EUAFU]

Same is true for any character in our books though. They are ink on paper, or paintings, or statues. By this reasoning one should throw everything in the trash can! Which is something somebody is already doing. I think it's just a matter of taste (not mine, to be fair).

This is what research and exegesis shows.
If one starts from a false premise one will find nothing but falsehoods.

The Bible is a mythological book, written to explain phenomena that people of the time did not understand, but mainly to force people to accept the status quo.

A clear example is the story of "Noah's drunkenness". It is just a story to explain why it would be lawful to hate/slave/kill Canaanites, because they were descended from Ham. Pure mythology.

Adam and Eve? Pure mythology. The same with Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, David and others.

So it's best to leave mythology aside and look for real facts, because starting from the Biblical text (as if they were historical texts) you can't even come close to finding the truth.

 

[Deleted member 37]

I partially agree with you, but I think it's not enough. I've seen multiple explanations of what the Bible is or should be. Here is another point of view and not very biased so far. Bonsignori doesn't teach lessons to anybody. Yes the moralistic lessons could be in the background, but it's mainly about history and movements of people, wheteher true or not. And Hercules doesn't appear in the Bible!
Btw, you probably just looked at the first map, but there's more. We arrived now at the fifteenth. Tke a look at the others. Something could be interesting to you. Bye

 

[ViniB]

This is what research and exegesis shows.
If one starts from a false premise one will find nothing but falsehoods.

The Bible is a mythological book, written to explain phenomena that people of the time did not understand, but mainly to force people to accept the status quo.

A clear example is the story of "Noah's drunkenness". It is just a story to explain why it would be lawful to hate/slave/kill Canaanites, because they were descended from Ham. Pure mythology.

Adam and Eve? Pure mythology. The same with Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, David and others.

So it's best to leave mythology aside and look for real facts, because starting from the Biblical text (as if they were historical texts) you can't even come close to finding the truth.

We can't even be sure when it was written! Last time i checked the oldest copies kept in the Vatican are from between 1500s-1600s if we were to believe them

 

[Deleted member 37]

We can't even be sure when it was written! Last time i checked the oldest copies kept in the Vatican are from between 1500s-1600s if we were to believe them

I'm sure the oldest is said to be from the 1400s.

 

[Safranek]

"So I have two questions:
1. were deutch people really descended from Noah?
2. why should I believe in the identification of Deutch (Tuisto) with Ashkenaz, which apparently happened only in the 18th century?"

Noah and most of the Biblical characters are fictional. They never existed beyond mythology. Therefore, they cannot establish any descent.

According to my latest research, partially thanks to some leads in this thread:

1. Yes, very possibly.
2. Because there are some primary sources (granted likely in an 'edited' form) that seem to confirm this.

Regarding the Biblical characters being fictional, I much arrived at the same conclusion as you, but digging deeper, I am starting to have my doubts.

How I now see it; The Bible is a partially edited and partially made up historical text.

What is it that made me change my mind?

The unfolding correlations between the characters, locations and the 'stories' attributed to them. By unfolding correlations I mean the possible if not probable connections made by some historians when comparing primary sources of different cultures/nations concerning either the same time, event and location. One of the main elements of confusion is the fact that the Greeks and Romans (where most western sources come from) had different names for the characters and people from what they called themselves, and non-western sources also seemed to alter these, however to less of an extent.

For instance, would any of us have considered that the Egyptians actually got their writing from the Scythians? Not likely, as if it is so, most evidence regarding that possibility has been either erased from history or is hidden somewhere in the Vatican library or some other similar place.

Here are two examples (and I'm sure not the only ones) of how it was done:

I suggest reading the whole letter for a better overview of the situation, only a few pages long. My personal take from that letter is that some Jesuit priests may have actually been doing good work and may not have been aware of the overall scheme of things as conducted by the upper echelon of the Jesuits. Maybe, if they all took the oath, they may all have been in on it. However, we can't know that for sure by reader the letter.

Burning Books, Erasing Memories

The second example concerns the 'replacement' of a certain Egyptian Bust Idol found in Turin possibly to hide any connection from Egypt to China, as that path would lead to the Caucasus via the Huns right to Magog, Japhet and directly of indirectly to Noah and the alleged location of the Ark (I will say more on this in future when time allows as I'm struggling with the source I've found regarding this matter);

Anyone interested in reading on for the full story (only a couple of more pages) on how this type of business was taken care of via credible 'witnesses' and 'authorities' can read here from page 130:

https://ia903107.us.archive.org/30/items/s25id13210510/s25id13210510.pdf

More input later. If any may be considered not relevant to the thread, we can move it upon request.

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Here's what I found about Tuisco and Annius of Viterbo, in the source below, translated (best as I could) from Hungarian. The book was written in 1817 and is entitled "From the Magyar Magog Patriarch to King Stephen I." by Ádám Horváth.

The book is hard to read for me (as Magyar is not my native language), I have to read passages many times to get coherence out of it, but its totally based on primary Greek, Roman, Biblical and Chinese sources, where the author makes a valiant attempt to piece together the Magyar origins based on what he finds in them. These lead him to Noah and he does his best to piece together the historical lands, conquests, kinship to other nations, etc. from the origin - Noah - to King Stephen I. of Hungary (the one who ordained the destruction of all literature written with Scythian letters).

Excerpt:

Furthermore, those who wish to originate the Huns to be descendants of the German Tuisko, the fields of Babylon, or even from one of their friends/comrades/kin who moved out of Armenia, base their opinions on the fictitious Berosus. It’s worthy to note that the fictitious Berosus himself, or Annius of Viterbo (a) attributes 11 sons to Tuisko, whose names are Mannus, Ingaevon, Istaevon, Herminon, Marsus, Gambrivius, Svevus, Vandalus, Hunnus, Hercules, Teutanes; additionally, Franc, Irenicus, Albert Crantz and Melchior Inchofer state similar. On the contrary, Joh. Aventin 1512 (b) and Wolfgang Lazius 1560 from Tacitus (de Situ et Moribus Germanorum) (c) declare Ingaevo, Herminon and Istaevo to be Mannus’ sons, and the grandson of Tuisco or Tuisto according to Tacitus.

Aventin L1. p. 36-44 attributes 4 sons to Hercules, named Noricus, Hunnus, Helveticus and Bojus, and he gives Sarmatia and Eastern Germania to this Hunnus, not the one who is Tuisko’s son according to Annius, and originates the Huns from him.

• From the Commentary about the fictitious Berosus L. II. Originum fol. 15
• Aventin L. 1. p. 45 – Hunnus Sarmatiam
• Tacitus right at the beginning states the following, while considering the Germans to be locals not having migrated there from elsewhere: and he proves this quoting Plinius

Here I stopped trying to translate as it is too difficult so I will summarize the best I can what the author, in the next few paragraphs states;

that Aventis misquoted Tacitus and proceeds to offer the correct quote from Plinius. He asserts that Aventin’s story of 11 to even 20 Nations originating the Germans is actually only 5 according to Plinius L. IV. c. 14, where he states them as 1. Vindelici 2. Ingaevones 3. Istaevones 4. Hermiones and 5. Peucini Basternae Dacis contermini; of which we can find 3 in the writings of the fictitious Berosus and thereby Annius, who based his writing on credible sources, increased the number of tribes to 11 and others to 20 from his work, thereby mixing up the Nations.

He later goes on to explain that the actual Berosus was actually a reliable source well respected by Joseph Flavius but that Annius of Viterbo added and changed some of his writings as Tiusco is not even mentioned by him despite mentioning lesser names. So from his commentary I get that Annius bastardized Besorus’ writings and either wrote under or attributed false narratives to his name or both. However, the author does mention that some of what Annius included is possibly based on the truth of the actual Besorus writings.

The author also states that Noah was likely also Janus and that according to tradition Tuisco had two brothers, Scythian Priscus and Sam or Samus. He also mentions that accordingly, Tuisco could likely be Japhet, while Scythian Priscus could be Shem, and Sam could be Kam.

On a separate note, @Silveryou, you mentioned that you did a chronological timeline a while back. The author of the book also calculated his own timeline starting on p. 79 and I'm curious what you think about it and to what extent it corresponds with yours. Of course, this means that I (or hopefully someone else who is a native Magyar speaker) translate it. Chronology is another important key to the puzzle.

 

[Deleted member 37]

that Aventis misquoted Tacitus and proceeds to offer the correct quote from Plinius. He asserts that Aventin’s story of 11 to even 20 Nations originating the Germans is actually only 5 according to Plinius L. IV. c. 14, where he states them as 1. Vindelici 2. Ingaevones 3. Istaevones 4. Hermiones and 5. Peucini Basternae Dacis contermini; of which we can find 3 in the writings of the fictitious Berosus and thereby Annius, who based his writing on credible sources, increased the number of tribes to 11 and others to 20 from his work, thereby mixing up the Nations.

He later goes on to explain that the actual Berosus was actually a reliable source well respected by Joseph Flavius but that Annius of Viterbo added and changed some of his writings as Tiusco is not even mentioned by him despite mentioning lesser names. So from his commentary I get that Annius bastardized Besorus’ writings and either wrote under or attributed false narratives to his name or both. However, the author does mention that some of what Annius included is possibly based on the truth of the actual Besorus writings.

The author also states that Noah was likely also Janus and that according to tradition Tuisco had two brothers, Scythian Priscus and Sam or Samus. He also mentions that accordingly, Tuisco could likely be Japhet, while Scythian Priscus could be Shem, and Sam could be Kam.

I feel like (and I know for a fact on various occasions) multiple versions of the same book were in existence. It' difficult to say if it was these authors themselves who modified the texts or if it was already done by others previously. It's like the hidden hand who wrote 49 upon LXI on the map by Bonsignori. Hard to tell who did it. Someone could probably say it was Bonsignori himself in order to settle the question.

On a separate note, @Silveryou, you mentioned that you did a chronological timeline a while back. The author of the book also calculated his own timeline starting on p. 79 and I'm curious what you think about it and to what extent it corresponds with yours. Of course, this means that I (or hopefully someone else who is a native Magyar speaker) translate it. Chronology is another important key to the puzzle.

I started doing it and then left it inconcluded 'cause I ran into various problems I didn't consider initially. It was an attempt of running various timelines side by side.
In the meantime you can enjoy what I discovered yesterday. Mercator was not only a cartographer but a chronologist too and in his chrono tables he places Moses and Aaron in the 8th century AD. Here the table already at the year785, where it's written:

Aaron, Moysi fratri, succedit

Aaron succeeds to his brother Moses! Year 785 ad!
Chronologia hoc est Temporum demonstratio exactissima ab initio mundi usque ad annum Domini M.D.LXVIII ... / auctore Gerardo Mercatore...

Here I stopped trying to translate as it is too difficult so I will summarize the best I can what the author, in the next few paragraphs states;

If it was difficult to you, imagine what was it like to me, LOL

 

[Deleted member 37]

Sixteenth map without a title (but it’s the Polar lands ‘imagined’ on top of the Bay of Hudson) by Stefano Bonsignori. This one is partially in Latin so don’t expect a 1:1 translation. The main text is in Italian though.

​

Land on the left:

• The Northern (Settentrione) parts are so far from us that few are those who wrote about them. They say the King of Norway (Re di Noruegia) having heard about it, sent people there to live, having been told by a certain priest who was at his service, who said he went there. This happened in the year of our Lord (S.re) 1364. And before that it was known that a certain Practicing Minorite (Minorita Osservante) and mathematician went to these islands and, as Jacobus (Iacopo) Cnoyen tells, described and measured with the astrolabe, as if it was a description with words, the place and the four (4) channels which flow with such speed towards the North (Sette.ne) that ships which enter cannot absolutely turn back since they are caught by an inner whirlpool. Gerald of Wales (Giraldo Cambrese) tells the same things in the book about the admirable things of Ireland (Ibernia).

Land on the right:

• This channel has five accesses and due to its narrowness and the rapidity of its flow it never freezes.

So here it is made clear that King Arthur was none other than the King of Norway!
Sorry British people, LOL!!!

The rest of the description is the same told in the previous map, apart from the peculiar climate of this channel.

The American continent is labeled ‘Northern Part of new India’.

By the way, I'm using as a subtitle what you can read on the description given in Google Arts & Culture (Polar lands imagined on top of the Bay of Hudson - Stefano Bonsignori - Google Arts & Culture):

IMAGINED
​

They are so stupid in their conformism that they don't even realize that north of the Hudson Bay there are in fact hundreds of islands!!!

edit: If Arthur was Norwegian, than the mythical Avalon could very well be Britain-Albion (Albion - Wikipedia).

 

[Safranek]

Mercator was not only a cartographer but a chronologist too and in his chrono tables he places Moses and Aaron in the 8th century AD.

This thread get more confusing with each map and related commentary. I find it strange that despite looking at numerous Mercator maps, this is the first instance of finding one of his chronologies. So we have Scaliger's), Newton's, Fomenko's and now we become exposed to Mercator's.

We have claims of Jerusalem or the Holy Land in Palestine, Russia, France and California.

We have primary sources from Rome, Greece, China, India, Judah/Israel, Egypt, Arabia and Europe which only partially correspond in chronology or not at all, and which primary sources are only 'copies' (read altered or invented) in most cases, and in which the 'characters' (names and peoples) are named in various ways by others according to their current whim based on names of leaders, locations or other attributes.

We have proof of the massive destruction of ancient books and alphabets and the 'editing for accuracy and congruence' of those that have been allowed to survive into our times.

What 'hard' evidence we had through archeological finds has been destroyed, covered up and stashed away by entities such as the Vatican, Smithsonian, etc., and 'scientific' bodies have been created and maintained to steer us away from any possible connections we may find.

Linguistics was blatantly hijacked to purposely obscure what would otherwise be obvious to an individual with common sense, not to mention a linguist, via the incorrect classification of languages, which much like archeology, can't be made to go away overnight. It took several hundred years in the Americas.

We have a blatant removal of the philosophies as taught by our ancient ancestors to be replaced with blind belief in religious systems which have all been either created or infiltrated shortly after their popularity and none of which would be able to defend the accuracy of their claims historically, archeologically or by any true scientific means. Celsus's worst fears came true.

Despite all these seemingly insurmountable difficulties, there must be a way to sift through the data and determine a most likely logical and probable sequence of causes and events.

 

[ViniB]

This thread get more confusing with each map and related commentary. I find it strange that despite looking at numerous Mercator maps, this is the first instance of finding one of his chronologies. So we have Scaliger's), Newton's, Fomenko's and now we become exposed to Mercator's.

We have claims of Jerusalem or the Holy Land in Palestine, Russia, France and California.

We have primary sources from Rome, Greece, China, India, Judah/Israel, Egypt, Arabia and Europe which only partially correspond in chronology or not at all, and which primary sources are only 'copies' (read altered or invented) in most cases, and in which the 'characters' (names and peoples) are named in various ways by others according to their current whim based on names of leaders, locations or other attributes.

We have proof of the massive destruction of ancient books and alphabets and the 'editing for accuracy and congruence' of those that have been allowed to survive into our times.

What 'hard' evidence we had through archeological finds has been destroyed, covered up and stashed away by entities such as the Vatican, Smithsonian, etc., and 'scientific' bodies have been created and maintained to steer us away from any possible connections we may find.

Linguistics was blatantly hijacked to purposely obscure what would otherwise be obvious to an individual with common sense, not to mention a linguist, via the incorrect classification of languages, which much like archeology, can't be made to go away overnight. It took several hundred years in the Americas.

We have a blatant removal of the philosophies as taught by our ancient ancestors to be replaced with blind belief in religious systems which have all been either created or infiltrated shortly after their popularity and none of which would be able to defend the accuracy of their claims historically, archeologically or by any true scientific means. Celsus's worst fears came true.

Despite all these seemingly insurmountable difficulties, there must be a way to sift through the data and determine a most likely logical and probable sequence of causes and events.

Good lord! Didn't know you could read my mind XD That's kinda what i was thinking but coudn't express

 

[Deleted member 37]

Seventeenth map without a title (but it’s the Polar lands ‘imagined’ on top of the strait of Bering) by Stefano Bonsignori. This one is partially in Latin so don’t expect a 1:1 translation. The main text is in Italian though.

​

In the northern parts there are the islands of Bargu (Bargu Insule) that the Venetian Marco Polo (m.us polus ven.us), in his first book Chapter 61 (lib. p.o Cap,o 6i) states are looking North (Aqlonem) so much that the pole star is seen to go down towards the south.

The Ocean (Oceanus), entering these islands with 19 (XIX)* accesses, creates four (4) channels flowing north without interruption and here it gets absorbed by the bowels of the earth. The Rock (Rupes) at the pole has a circumference of 33 (XXXIII) leagues.

* Various translations report a 19 (XIX). The number on the map is not very clear. Is it something else?

 

[iseidon]

Eleventh map titled ‘Mauritania’ by Stefano Bonsignori.

View attachment 23418
​

In their tales the ancients stated that the mount Atlas (Atlante) reached the sky with its summit, meaning that Iapetus (Iapeto) called Atlas, first ruler (Sig.re) of this Province (Provincia) after the greater flood, was the son of Noah (Noe) called Sky (Cielo). Here Hercules (Ercole) passed there to avenge his father Osiris’ (Osiri) death and killed Antaeus (Anteo) who ruled over it, from whose wife Tinjis (Tingena) had a son called Sufax (Siface). Hercules built the City of Tangier (Citta Tingena) from which the Province took its name, while the remnant parts were given their names by the Caesars (Cesari). Sufax expanded the state inherited from his father until the Phoenicians (Fenici) disturbed the peace of these people, and the Carthaginians (Cartaginesi) became rulers of a part of it. But then it passed under the Roman (Romani) rule with all the Carthaginian territory, and after them many foreign people appeared and lastly the Saracens (Saracini), still ruling it today, except for that part owned by the Portuguese (Portoghesi) and the Spaniards (Spagniuoli). Even though these Saracens are barbarians, they hold dear virtue and fine arts, which is proved by the abundance of public schools present in various places of this territory.

This map provides more ‘historical mythology’ for us to read. It will be useful to do a summary at the end with all the various identifications. Here Noah is obviously called Sky, Uranus, since he was presumably castrated by his son Ham (or Canaan), identified with Cronus/Saturn.

It's a great old map. In terms of a simplified demonstration of mountain ranges and river systems. I have a hypothesis according to which the present deserts (including the Sahara) are the man-made result of the man-made partial destruction of man-made mountain chains (water-bearing systems). I have a legitimate question. What was the reason for the emergence/creation of deserts? Was it a consequence of the famine policy (or rather, the deprivation of direct access to water resources)? A military strike against the most critical infrastructure (which creates water)? The result of waste from the global (if we consider the whole Earth as a mining plant) enrichment process after mining?