Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany

[busy.baci]

'Troglodita' in Italian is synonymous to a backward not intelligent person. It is almost interchangeable with 'cavernicolo' which in fact means 'caveman' and is represented in the same way, club in hand included.
It seems that the stories about wildmen began the basis for 'modern' prehistoric cavemen. I think there's many things to dig here. There are multiple representations of wild people from the 'middle-ages'. I don't believe it's just a legend or a fable.

Thank you for the clarification, if the wild men stories were common during middle-ages, I'm starting to think that might be related to some kind of natural disaster during that period of time. It's very common for well educated and civil men to became savages and loose their ways in the face of famine and the total collapse of a society. I don't think they came from caves, something big must have happened to reduce them to their basic instincts.

1530: The Great Flood of Rome thread comes to mind and I think it might be related to the map of France where Bonsigniori mentions the Gauls running little from the waters of the Deluge. Was he referring to this flood? After all it happened in Rome and Netherlands in 1530, some 20 years before Bonsigniori was to compile his maps. An event like this should be fresh in his memories and will be interesting to track this fact if he mentions it in the rest of the maps.

 

[Deleted member 37]

According to Vatican aproved crap story is how the brazilian natives were called.

Really? I've never heard of it. Was it in relation to living in caves or as a general name without a specific meaning?

I don't think they came from caves, something big must have happened to reduce them to their basic instincts.

I don't have a clear opinion about that. Various images from the middle-ages show these 'wildmen' as a different culture and they seem perfectly adapted to their lifestyle. Maybe we should search for sources talking about them to see if there's some trace of flood-stories. As far as I know there was no relation between the two but, as I said, I've not read anything about it and I have no clear opinion.

 

[Sanctus Martinus]

On the "Gaul" topic, to me, Gaul is just another conversion, like Saul and Paul. With all three originating from Aul, which means God.

There is also Aula (Auditorium) a hall (sound, echo), a classroom. (The first classrooms ever. And who were the teachers?) Having a classrom for God would make it a church or a temple.

Aul is also spoken like All, Owl or Oil.

 

[Deleted member 37]

While translating this new map I was thinking about the information on the map of Egypt (Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany). There Ham was said to be called Camese and being the youngest of Noah’s sons born after the Flood. It came now to mind the simple fact that the last of the sons of Ham was Canaan, who was the one cursed by Noah in the famous episode of the Bible. But it is said that in ‘classical antiquity’ the misnomer ‘Curse of Ham’ was attached to the ‘Curse of Canaan’ (Canaan (son of Ham) - Wikipedia). So Bonsignori says that Ham had a double name while in reality the second name, Camese, might be attributed to his youngest son Canaan. Consequently there was a double mistake with some truth to it. On one hand Cam and Camese are two different characters while on the other Camese was the last of Ham’s sons, not Noah’s. I an going to use Ham as a translation of Camese in any case.

But this once more begs the question. How could the monk Bonsignori and those who came up with these stories be so ignorant about the main text of christianity, the Bible? It seems as if Bonsignori was talking about far away traditions not really important during his time. It seems as if he himself and Annio preceding him were in fact taught these stories by somebody else and were reporting them trying to correlate them with their own stories about Graeco-Roman dieties. Was the misnomer ‘Curse of Ham’ really given during ‘classical antiquity’?

Let’s now continue, since this one coming is like a thread within a thread.



Eighth map titled ‘L’Italia’ by Stefano Bonsignori. This map has three captions: one for the Italian peninsula, one for Sicily and another for Sardinia and Corsica.

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Italian peninsula: Gomer Gallus (Comero Gallo), son of Japheth (Iafet), was the first to obtain this kingdom by his ancestor Noah (Noe), and directed its peoples on the right path. But when Ham (Camese) was driven out by the others, he came here and began to corrupt those peoples. But then Noah, also known as Janus (Iano), arrived and expelled him. Some years after his death, the Peoples (Popoli), oppressed by the Great Ones* (Grandi), called Osiris Jupiter Just (Osiri Gioue Giusto) for help. He freed them and taking the name of Apis (Api), he reigned there for many years. Leaving the kingdom to Laestrygon (Lestrigone), he went back to Egypt (Egitto), where he was killed by his Brother Typhon (Fratello Tifone) due to the conspiracy of Laestrygon and the other great ones. This event prompted Hercules (Ercole) to take away this state in order to avenge his father, and he ruled over it for many years until he left it to his son Tusco. It wasn’t long before Hesperus (Espero) occupied it after being driven away from Spain (Spagna) by his brother Italus (Italo), and the land was called Hesperia (Esperia), leaving the previous name of Oenotria (Enotria). Hesperus enjoyed it for a short time, because he was pursued by Italus Atlas Chitim** King of Spain (Italo Atlante Chitim Re di Spagna), who took it from him and called it Italy (Italia). His own successors didn’t last much since Dardanus (Dardano) killed his brother Iasion (Iasio) due to a wrongdoing*** and fled to Samothrace (Samotracia) fearing for his life. There he renounced all the claims he had upon the kingdom of Italy to Tyrrhenus (Turreno), son of the High King of Lydia (Alto Re di Lidia), and obtained in exchange a state in Asia, which was the basis for the Trojan (Troiano) kingdom, while Tyrrhenus obtained this one. Italus had given the rulership of the Aborigines (Aborigeni) to his daughter Roma, and from her ensued the realm of Latium (Latio) that passed on to the Trojans guided by Aeneas (Enea), whose descendants founded Rome (Roma), that after some centuries dominated almost the entire world. But being human things unstable, this, too, came to an end and the unfortunate Italy was trampled on and torn apart by the Goths (Gotti), the Alemanni (Alemani), the Lombards (Longobardi), the Saracenes (Saracini), the Normans (Normandi), the Franks (Franzesi), the Spaniards (Spagn.li) and other foreign peoples. But today it is peacefully ruled by its princes, who will with their knowledge and wisdom free it from great danger and ruin looming over it ina way similar to Greece (Grecia), as Astrologers (Astrologi) say. Given that the Stars (Stelle) and their movements make no harm at all, still they show well enough the dangers we human beings have to face, so that with prudence and good government we can take care and get rid of them.

* The word ‘Grandi’ means ‘Big Ones’ but I chose ‘Great’ because it sounds better. Be it Great, Big, Huge or Titanic, the word obviously refers to the Titans/Giants and all the other possible declinations we already know.

** I couldn’t find much information about a possible translation and/or meaning of the word Chitim, other than the variant Chitin. It seems to be an appelative of Atlas.

*** The word is ‘torlo’. Cannot find a translation in modern Italian for this one but it seems ‘wrongdoing’ fits with the general sense of the sentence.

There’s so many things to say that it’s difficult to know where to start, so I think it’s best to divide this story in various points and then proceed.
1. Gomer Gallus, son of Japhet, first king of the peninsula.
2. Ham second ruler.
3. Noah takes charge.
4. The Great Ones rule.
5. Osiris Jupiter Just/Apis takes power.
6. Laestrygon left on the throne.
7. Osiris Jupiter Just killed by Typhon in a conspiracy in Egypt.
8. Hercules, son of Osiris, takes over from Laestrygon.
9. Tusco succeeds his father Hercules
10. Hesperus leaves Spain and gives his name to the territory, previously known as Oenotria.
11. Italus Atlas Chitim, Hesperus’ brother, takes Hesperia and renames it Italy.
12. Italus’ successors.
13. Dardanus kills Iasion and flees.
14. Dardanus leaves his title of King of Italy to Tyrrhenus.
15. Italus had already given Latium to his daughter Roma, and this kingdom will be taken back by Dardanus’ successor Aeneas.
16. Romans.
17. Invasions.

So here it’s finally introduced Gomer ‘Gallus’, who is clearly a different person from the previous Celtus talked about the France map. It’s difficult to understand who was the most gaulish of the two. But here Bonsignori has already stated that Celtus (Galate) was the ancesor of the Gauls, not Gomer Gallus. And still no word is spent on this Gomer, about whom we know that he was Ashkenaz’s father and Johannes Aventinus (Johannes Aventinus - Wikipedia), whose work was in the same line of that by Annio da Viterbo, identified him with Tuisto (Tuitsch - Johannes Aventinus - Wikipedia) already in the beginning of the 16th century. His work is now considered to be a fabrication.

Both Johannes and Annio apparently took their information from the ancient author Berossus, who was considered legit at that time but later declared a false and labeled Pseuso-Berossus (Berossus - Wikipedia) and cast into oblivion along with these stories. It is called ‘pseudo’, keep it in mind.

About Annio da Viterbo, once again, the wiki says (Annio da Viterbo - Wikipedia): ‘The Antiquities met at once both with believers and with severe critics who accused him of willful interpolation, or even fabrication. The content was falsely attributed to Berosus, Fabius Pictor, Cato the Elder, Manetho and others. The spurious character of these "historians" of Annio, which he published both with and without commentaries, has long been admitted. The demolition of the forgeries owed much to Joseph Justus Scaliger.’

Joseph Justus Scaliger! (https://chronologia.org/en/seven/1N01-EN-001-030.pdf - Joseph Justus Scaliger according to Jacob Duellman)

It was apparently Berossus the one equating Noah to Janus due to the invention of wine. Therefore it is stated that the name ‘Janus’ derives from the Hebrew root ‘iain’, wine, and according to Cato the Elder, in his ‘Origines’, the Greeks called him Oenotrus. Therefore the first name for Italy, Oenotria, was apparently given by Noah himself, according to this reconstruction.

I’m not going to relate the entire story. It’s interesting to see the Egyptian vibe of it. It seems a huge chunk of Greek ‘mythology’ was believed to be Egyptian history. Osiris and Jupiter were basically considered the same and the main Hercules of the story comes from Egypt rather than Greece. In a moment we are going to see the Greek one in relation to the islands. The Great Ones have a Tartarian vibe for sure, but they clearly represent the Titanomachy and Gigantomachy of Greek mythology. Italy was also apparently called Hesperia at a certain point in time, while this name is generally associated with Spain.

But I bet the most interesting part is the one talking about Italus, who supposedly gave Italy its name. Here he is called Italus Atlas Chitim, the King of Spain. As I’ve already said, I don’t have any ideas about the meaning of the word ‘Chitim’ (‘Chitin’ elsewhere after a quick research), but Atlas was for sure the name of the Titan from Greek mythology. And it was also said to be King of Atlantis. Is Bonsignori saying that the Italian peninsula took its name after the conquest by people coming from outside of Europe?
Italian - Latin - Atlantean?

I am going to stop here, since it’s already too much!



Sicily: Expelled from Italy by his father Noah (Noe), Ham (Camese) was the first to enter this island with colonies. After him came Celtus (Galate), son of the Egyptian Hercules (Ercole Egizzio), sent by his brother Tusco accompanied by Tuscan (Toscane) peoples. And then was the turn of Sicano, Lord* of Spain (S. di Spagna) after whom the land took the name of Sicania, leaving aside its previous name of Trinacria. At last it took the name of Sicily (Sicilia) after Siculus (Siculo) son of the Greek Hercules (Ercole Greco) or after Siculus and Siceleo, Lords of Spain, as others believe. And then the Greeks (Greci) entered who were not united and therefore the Carthaginians (Cartag.si) took advantage of it and almost ruled on the entire territory, which was achieved by the Romans (Romai). And when the Roman monarchy disappeared it was at the mercy of various people. But nowadays it’s defended by the King of Spain and enjoys its salubrious air and fertility of its land. The Greeks wrote many fables about this island, which contain important things under their veils.

* I’ve translated ‘S.’ with ‘Lord’ presuming it stands for ‘Signore’.

We are dealing here with a ‘Graeco-Egyptian’ history of the Mediterranean as much as in the previous caption. I am not going to comment on everything but just want to remember that all of these stories were attributed to Berossus through Annio da Viterbo and it was Scaliger who proclaimed them fabrications. Since then they are considered myths and nobody really cares anymore.
I am not saying I believe 100% these stories, but I believe they contain some truth and there could possibly be some geographical mistake hidden behind these tales.

The Gauls took Sicily with a Tuscan army? More about that! Are we sure it all happened in the misty antiquity?
The Greek Hercules makes here his first cameo appearance. Who was he at this point? What’s the difference with the Egyptian one?



Sardinia and Corsica: It seems the ancient people thought that the Islands of Sardinia and Corsica (Isole di Sardigna e Corsica) were one and the same, due to their proximity. It is said that Phorcys (Forco) son of Neptune (Nettuno) was sent there with Tuscan (Toscane) colonies by his brother Laestrygon (Lestrigone), the King of Italy (Re d’Italia), and left a part of it to the Ligures (Liguri). And it seems logic to assume that this part was Corsica, called Cyrnos (Cirno) by the Greeks (Greci). Which is still under their control. After Phorcys came from Africa Sardus (Sardo), son of the Egyptian Hercules (Ercole Eggizio) with a great number of african people and the land took its name after this Sardus. It was then harassed by the Greeks, followed by the Carthaginians (Cartaginesi), who lost it to the Romans (Romani). But after many misfortunes, it obeys to the King of Spain (Re di Spagna), who defends it from the Barbarians* (Barbarbari), keeps its peace and rules it with Justice (Giustizia).

* People from the Barbary Coast in north Africa/Maghreb.

Sardinians come from Egypt. It is believed nowadays that Sardinians are autochthonous to the island, but here it’s well explained their origin. It is obviously not the only origin, but the main one. Ligures are mentioned here for the first time. They supposedly took Corsica in the time of myths and kept it all through the ages untill Napoleon, despite historians saying it passed multiple hands, expecially the Romans. Something is off with history.



Why did Scaliger and those behind him had to disregard all of these stories substituting them with a falsely scientific official history?

I'm exhausted

 

[trismegistus]

It’s interesting to see the Egyptian vibe of it. It seems a huge chunk of Greek ‘mythology’ was believed to be Egyptian history. Osiris and Jupiter were basically considered the same and the main Hercules of the story comes from Egypt rather than Greece. In a moment we are going to see the Greek one in relation to the islands. The Great Ones have a Tartarian vibe for sure, but they clearly represent the Titanomachy and Gigantomachy of Greek mythology. Italy was also apparently called Hesperia at a certain point in time, while this name is generally associated with Spain.

Apologies if this was mentioned earlier in the thread, but there is a city known as "Heracleion" in Egypt.

Heracleion - Wikipedia.

Egypt's Temple Town - Archaeology Magazine

Across from the temple’s entrance, archaeologists discovered Doric columns belonging to a circular Greek temple. Thonis-Heracleion’s surfeit of sanctuaries, including temples dedicated to Hercules and Osiris, was a result of official favor bestowed on it for its economic significance.

It has been brought up once before on SH by @Mabzynn here:
SH Archive Replies - Petra: The melted city

(51) Palestinae.
​

As Mabzynn pointed out - it looks like an intact city on this map from the 16th century, contrary to the historical narrative which says it sunk into the sea in 2nd century BCE. Of course the question is raised how did Ortelius know of a sunken city 1700 years after the fact, similar to Pompeii appearing on maps during this time.

 

[busy.baci]

As Mabzynn pointed out - it looks like an intact city on this map from the 16th century, contrary to the historical narrative which says it sunk into the sea in 2nd century BCE. Of course the question is raised how did Ortelius know of a sunken city 1700 years after the fact, similar to Pompeii appearing on maps during this time.

Yes, that thread would fit nicely with the story Bonsigniori is telling through his maps about Hercules, Osiris and Jupiter the just.

What's more interesting here is that Noah and Jupiter and Hercules were all contemporaries to each other, either they were living 900 plus years each and were able to see each other, or there is a problem with dating. I think the first one is more plausible based on the tales of their long lifespan.

Italian peninsula: Gomer Gallus (Comero Gallo), son of Japheth (Iafet), was the first to obtain this kingdom by his ancestor Noah (Noe), and directed its peoples on the right path. But when Ham (Camese) was driven out by the others, he came here and began to corrupt those peoples. But then Noah, also known as Janus (Iano), arrived and expelled him. Some years after his death, the Peoples (Popoli), oppressed by the Great Ones* (Grandi), called Osiris Jupiter Just (Osiri Gioue Giusto) for help.

I could be able to connect some dots in a conjecture, trying to explain some of the names of the land marks and characters in this story with Albanian language.

Ham (Camese) could be ralated to Çameria, Chameria the land of the Albanian people who live in front of the Isle of Corfu in now day Greece, once called Epir/Epirus. And these population of people call themselves Çam very closely to Cam or Ham. And if Noah himself was called also by the name of Ianus, it remind me of the city of Ioannina in the same land of Çameria or Epir. The Ionian Sea bears the same phonetics as Ioannina and in Albanian is just called Jon, meaning (Ours).

The name Epir if it's broken down as E-pir, means (dry land) and this word in Albanian was used by navigators sailing the seas, every time they spot dry land on open seas.

I'm thinking if Noah's Ark or another barge with people who survived the great flood landed on the mountains of Epir. Noah also called Janus founds a city for himself (the city of Ioannina) and in the vicinity of it were the lands of his grandson named Çam who was cast out of his lands because he was a trouble maker. And where did he go? Of course, he must have traversed the Otranto Strait and went in the Italian Peninsula where he caused more trouble and was called out even there, forcing Noah/Janus to go there and teach him a lesson and curse him in the process of it.

If Noah was really in mount Ararat and commanding everything his sons and grandsons did from there, I really doubt he would have bothered to come all that way to Italy and go back just because one of his grandsons is such a PITA (pardon my language). But if he is close by, (in Greece) and he can reach Cam within a 2 sailing days and 2 days on horse, yeah, that's something someone is willing to bear in order to get people in line and be done once and for all.

Another curious thing is the name of Oenotra.

It wasn’t long before Hesperus (Espero) occupied it after being driven away from Spain (Spagna) by his brother Italus (Italo), and the land was called Hesperia (Esperia), leaving the previous name of Oenotria (Enotria)

So from what I'm understanding Italian peninsula was called Oenotria and than changed to Hesperia because of Espero being driven away from Spain.
Oenotria sound like a mix of Italian and Albanian language as O-e-notria meaning (It's ours) the same thing like with the Ionian Sea but more with an Italian flavor to it. Something like (E Nostra). It seems that these people after the great flood were in the business of claiming free estate and putting signs everywhere they could...I'TS MINE!! And when things went haywire, grandpa had to step in and fix everything.

Are we dealing with some type of Cosa Nostra type of land grab here? Lool

 

[Deleted member 37]

The "Pto" ending in some of the towns I guess comes from Ptolemeu, a friend and a general in Alexander the Great army ruling over Alexandria and maybe regions close to it.

It seems that you are in fact correct. After a second (and a third, fourth, fifth...) look at it I noticed places called 'Ptolom.o'. It was difficult to notice 'cause it was written in vertical, so to say. I wonder why they had to add 'Ptolemaic' to all these places. Here below it's connected to the various rivers the Nile divides into in its delta.

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[busy.baci]

It seems that you are in fact correct. After a second (and a third, fourth, fifth...) look at it I noticed places called 'Ptolom.o'. It was difficult to notice 'cause it was written in vertical, so to say. I wonder why they had to add 'Ptolemaic' to all these places. Here below it's connected to the various rivers the Nile divides into in its delta.

Yeah, that's good to know. I'm not having any ideas except that the Ptolemaic dynasty somehow had the need to be distinguished from the locals, they came from Macedonia and they even resorted to inbreeding and sibling marriage to preserve skin color and the power to rule over Egypt. I guess they had some preferred towns and specifically named them with the "Pto" ending, I could be wrong though, I'm not having any specific explanation for it.

 

[trismegistus]

Both Johannes and Annio apparently took their information from the ancient author Berossus, who was considered legit at that time but later declared a false and labeled Pseuso-Berossus (Berossus - Wikipedia) and cast into oblivion along with these stories. It is called ‘pseudo’, keep it in mind.

About Annio da Viterbo, once again, the wiki says (Annio da Viterbo - Wikipedia): ‘The Antiquities met at once both with believers and with severe critics who accused him of willful interpolation, or even fabrication. The content was falsely attributed to Berosus, Fabius Pictor, Cato the Elder, Manetho and others. The spurious character of these "historians" of Annio, which he published both with and without commentaries, has long been admitted. The demolition of the forgeries owed much to Joseph Justus Scaliger.’

I find it interesting that people find it difficult to accept that the history of rome has no sources, yet when it comes to matters of chronology that fly in the face of Scalinger it is okay to reveal such falsehoods. It is apparent that Berossus is as difficult to extrapolate real history from as any of the other "ancient historians" so much of mainstream academia is based on. An argument used on both sides of the coin, to use forgery and lack of primary source as a reason to discredit another view.

 

[Deleted member 37]

Ninth map titled ‘Parte di Scitia’ by Stefano Bonsignori.

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The Scythians (Sciti) believe in the story of a vergin who was born from the earth, being half in the shape of a woman and half of a Viper (Vipa). After making love to Jupiter (Gioue), she gave birth to a boy named Scythes (Scita). Others tell she made love to Hercules (Ercole), who gave the Province (Provincia) its name once he became famous. Scythians were originally few in number and possessed a small land near the Aras (Arax) river, but they grew in huge numbers and thanks to their own virtue they expanded their territory till they got a huge empire. Having grown in strenght, they had Kings (Re) worthy of being remembered. At this point they crossed the Don (Tana) river and conquered the two Sarmatias (Sarmazzie) till they reached the Boreal Ocean (Oceano Boreale). When the principality of the Scythians broke apart, it is told that certain women called Amazons (Amazoni) began their rule and became famous for their vigor and martial arts. They were so excellent that not only they subdued a great part of Asia, but also many of the closer European (d’Europa) nations. They destroyed the army of Cyrus (Ciro) and having captured him alive, they crucified him. Hercules of Alcmene (Alcmena) and Jupiter challenged and defeated them and captured their Queen Hippolyta (Hippolita loro Reg.na). This battle put an end to their Reign (Regno). Darius (Dario) then tried to subdue this nation after the Amazon rule, but he was forced to a retreat being on the verge of destruction. The Scythians are believed to be the first human beings. From their kind was born Janus (Iano), Diri* and the ancestors who led colonies to Italy (Italia) and to other parts of Europe.

* I couldn’t find who this deity corresponds to.

Another interesting map. First of all it makes sense that Janus, previously identified with Noah, comes out in the proximity of the Aras river in Armenia, near mount Ararat. Therefore Bonsignori is saying that the various ‘peoples of the Book’, Jews included, directly descended from the Scythians, whose initial position was strangely similar to that of the Khazars…

There are another couple things to say about this caption.

Cyrus was apparently crucified according to this tradition. I want to remind everybody that Cyrus was considered a messiah, according to Isaiah 45:1…

There are two Herculeses and the second one, Alcmene’s son, generally spoken of as the original one, actually lived, according to Bonsignori, between the reign of Cyrus the Great (559 BC – 530 BC) and that of Darius of Persia (522 BC – 486 BC)! Is anybody able to find this Hercules in that time frame?

 

[HELLBOY]

Since I see that there are characters out of time here, perhaps we could take into account the chronology of Anatoly Fomenko who says that the Old Testament is in fact more recent than the New Testament. Fomenko also says that about how before the Middle Ages it is difficult to say anything because there are no sources and only after that with the available sources I place Egypt as a first Rome, Egypt (Alexandria, Cairo). Century XII Second in Yoros, Jerusalem, Troy. Third in Vladimir Suzdal Rus, Veliky Novgorod, Fourth in Constantinople and Fifth in Moscow.


Century XI Egypt (Alexandria, Cairo).
Century XII Second in Yoros, Jerusalem, Troy.
In the 13th century the Trojan War would take place for the death of Christ. The new center of the empire is established in Russia.
Third in Vladimir Suzdal Rus, Veliky Novgorod this Rome would be of Enei Rurik.
Unification of the Slavic and Turkic peoples under the rules of the Horde.
14th century "Mongol" invasions in Western and Southern Europe, Florence, Rome, Vatican. The riddle of the Etruscans. The Cossacks-arians from Russia to India, the epic Mahabaratha.
15th century Golden age of the Empire.
Rise of the Ottoman Empire and its union with the Horde-Russia, the conquest of the biblical Promised Land.
The "Mongol" empire and the familiar Christian kingdom of Presbyter John.
The Inquisition in the Bible, Moses begins the Ottoman conquest of the 15th century, passing through the sea is the passage through the ice, medieval geography in the Old Testament, conquest of America by the Horde-Russia and the Ottoman Empire, conquest of America in the Book of Mormon by Noah-Columbus, colonization of America in the book of Popol Vuh in the 15th and 16th centuries, division of the world between Castile and Portugal, destruction of the "American Indians", the apocalypse is about the Ottoman conquest, Herodotus the chronicler of the Horde.
XVIth century
Kazan: rebellions in Russia-Hordes, Revolution-Reformation in Western Europe, 16th century Moscow is described in the bible as Jerusalem of Nehemiah, Jerusalem in Palestine a new Jerusalem outside Moscow, Babylonian exile, the temple of Salomon and Sophia in Istanbul, Salomon is Souleiman the Magnificent.
XVII century the history of antiquity is written, the time of the judges of Israel is the time of the Inquisition, the emperor Claudius and Ivan the Terrible are the same, the Horde empire is broken, annihilation of the Cathar-Scythians. Romans destroy the history of the Horde.
XVIIIth century
Division of the remnants of the Horde-Russia between Romanovs and the United States immediately after the fall of Pugachev.

 

[Deleted member 37]

I find it interesting that people find it difficult to accept that the history of rome has no sources, yet when it comes to matters of chronology that fly in the face of Scalinger it is okay to reveal such falsehoods. It is apparent that Berossus is as difficult to extrapolate real history from as any of the other "ancient historians" so much of mainstream academia is based on. An argument used on both sides of the coin, to use forgery and lack of primary source as a reason to discredit another view.

I'm not sure there are no sources as you are. My problem is mainly about chronology, geography and general interpretation of what is written. I have come to doubt my doubt too though. All these 'fabrications' were diclared such in the 'time of fabrications' (which has never ended, by the way), so who is granting me that someone censored the correct history and not the wrong one? And everytime I read something from that period, even the books they claim are 'true', there's also a lot of information theat they simply skip. For example here Anna Komnene talks about Bohemond's cousin (or brother) as a three meters tall man (and Bohemond too had to be extraordinary tall), but this information is simply not going out (Bohemond I of Antioch and his cousin). Are we supposed to believe the entire Alexiad is a fraud due to this detail and many others which go against the narrative? I don't believe so.
In this case we clearly have some kind of 'lost' history which was very commonly accepted in that period, be it true or false. This story has been hidden and studied only by specialists. The books have not been translated and not been reprinted. And the access to them is scarce. It's a gold mine to me.
Historians after Scaliger took that history, true or false as it was, and crippled it. The result is the very polite and misty history where there's no explanation to events because those explanations have been labeled 'myth'. Worse than that, they have now 'scientific' tools like c-14 to justify their new crippled narrative, even though Scaliger himself gave no scientific proof whatsoever in his preliminary works.
This is conspiracy at its finest. And it's done by an army of 'workers' who study and believe without any kind of critique mind!

Since I see that there are characters out of time here, perhaps we could take into account the chronology of Anatoly Fomenko who says that the Old Testament is in fact more recent than the New Testament. Fomenko also says that about how before the Middle Ages it is difficult to say anything because there are no sources and only after that with the available sources I place Egypt as a first Rome, Egypt (Alexandria, Cairo). Century XII Second in Yoros, Jerusalem, Troy. Third in Vladimir Suzdal Rus, Veliky Novgorod, Fourth in Constantinople and Fifth in Moscow.

I noted various repetitions in these maps. There's an abundance of Herculeses, the last one living in the time of Cyrus and Darius! On the Italian map it was funny to see how the supposedly mythical Phorcys, about whom 99.9% of Italians don't know who he was, gave Corsica to the Ligures, the region where Genoa is placed. Then it's taken by Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans and others... until it came back to Genoa from the XIII century to Napoleon! One could say it's the natural course of events, but it's still fascinating that the owners coming out of the 'obscure middle-ages' are the same who owned it in the epoch of myths and wonders.

When it comes to Fomenko, he is just one of the various chronologists, as I know that you know. I'm personally not convinced of his reconstruction. There are too many question marks all over it, and even if he describes his method in his books, I don't think he ever published the raw material and analisys he conducted back in the '70s and '80s. I also doubt he became fully acquainted with all the literature at disposal, so I think it's important to bring some liht on the subject and see where it goes.

By the way, what do you think about this Italus Atlas Chitim King of Spain, whose brother was Hesperus? The Garden of the Hesperides is traditionally placed in the West, but presumed localizations apart, it makes sense it was beyond the Pillars of Hercules. Was he a King coming from beyond the Atlantic?

 

[ViniB]

Really? I've never heard of it. Was it in relation to living in caves or as a general name without a specific meaning?


I don't have a clear opinion about that. Various images from the middle-ages show these 'wildmen' as a different culture and they seem perfectly adapted to their lifestyle. Maybe we should search for sources talking about them to see if there's some trace of flood-stories. As far as I know there was no relation between the two but, as I said, I've not read anything about it and I have no clear opinion.

It was a general name, in the most offensive way possible, like the natives weren't people of God because they weren't civilized, big time bs jesuit narrative.
One thing that is pretty interesting is that the tupinamba people have an oral tradition about a massive flood similar to noah and the aztec and mayan "legends" but no one talks about it.........

 

[HELLBOY]

Seventh map titled ‘Trogloditica’ by Stefano Bonsignori.

View attachment 23306​

The ancients wrote few things about the Troglodytae land and so inhuman that generate horror. But it seems not to be the case, since Moses (Mose), fighting to take Meroe as a general for the Pharaoh (Faraone), and failing to capture it by force, finally took it thanks to the passionate love felt by the daughter of the King (Re) of the Troglodytae, after hearing about the reputation of his virtues. Won over by his virtues, she married him and gave him the City (Città). There cannot be cruelty where virtue itself is so strong. Some Troglodytae are faithful to the law of Christ (X.o) and some to that of Mohammed (Maometto). They are under the rulership of the great Lord of the Ethiopian (Sig.re degli Etiopi) called Prester John (Prete Iani). The Portoguese (Portoghesi) took over a number of lands along these shores, some of which they still possess.



For those who don’t know where it comes from, the tale of Moses and the daughter of the King of the Ethiopians is told by Flavius Josephus in his ‘Jewish Antiquities’. But here the King of the Ethiopians becomes the King of the Throglodytae. There is no possibility that Bonsignori was confusing them with each other, since he already mentioned the Ethiopians various times. So a question arises again. Was he reporting random information without caring of what he was writing? Did some Jews suggested the wrong tale out of pure maliciousness? Was he a Jew himself and decided to trick everybody, even though nobody really cared about what he was doing and in a matter of decades everybody forgot his maps?
The only alternative is that various tales were told of that not-official event and this was one of the various versions. And by the way, did Flavius Josephus really lived in the epoch we now think he lived?

The map is first and foremost about modern Somalia and parts of Ethiopia. Meroe, traditionally placed on the Nile, is not depicted on the map, and rightly so.

‘Troglodytae’ (Troglodytae - Wikipedia) was certainly not the real name of those people, since it litterally means ‘cave dwellers’ in the Greek language. So I want to share an observation, or maybe I should say a doubt, that I have.
We know that cave dwellers were depicted on many maps more or less of the same period in the northern parts of the world, like northern Russia and Scandinavia. A thought came to my mind. What if the legendary ‘trolls’ (Troll - Wikipedia) of scandinavian folk tales were in fact 'troglodytaes'? What if the word 'troll' itself is a contraction for 'cave dwellers'? Strangely enough, the african troglodytae evock images of club-bearing wild men (Wild man - Wikipedia) and dwarves (Dwarf (folklore) - Wikipedia) inhabiting the underground, both present in African and Scandinavian maps. I wonder if some tales originally coming from northern Europe migrated to Africa. Strabo himself talked about troglodytae in Scythia Minor, so it is clear that it was a generic term applied to people with a specific way of living, rather than (obviously) being the name of a specific african tribe.
Who knows…

And last but not least, Prester John (Prester John - Wikipedia) makes here is cameo appearance and seems to be a title more than an individual. Not much to say about that, but it could be already enough!

About the Troglodytes it occurs to me that it could refer to the Blemians, a fantastic people of acephalous men known as blemias.

The majority opinion is to consider the Blemians as the successors of the buka or medjay (medju, in singular), who were basically "Nubians" migrated to Egypt in the second millennium and who were used as police forces), A different point of view, closely indebted to the classical Greco-Roman sources, considers them Ethiopian tribes, but it must be taken into account that these sources allude to a broad concept of Ethiopia, referring to the territories south of Egypt inhabited by black populations.
Blemmyes - Wikipedia

The Piri Reis map places a Blemio next to a Cinocephalus next to the Amazon, I remember that in the mythical city of El Dorado they also place Amazon warriors and headless guys in other maps.
Piri Reis map - Wikipedia

Something similar to troglodytes sounds to me like what was said about the people who inhabited Mexico and who were supposed to have been here before the Aztecs.

When these six tribes (Mexica-Aztecs) first came from Mexico, the Chichimecas made little or no resistance against them, but hid among the rocks; however, some of them soon armed themselves and would undoubtedly have destroyed the Tlaxcalans, had not a subtle plot saved them.

Joseph de Acosta tells us that in 1586 he saw a tomb in Mexico, where lay buried a Chichimeca of gigantic size.

The Chichimecs who remained in the mountains (they lived in deep caves) left the new people in quiet possession of their lands, and learned some of their customs, to the extent that they began to build huts, elect governors and live according to their laws.

All of northern Mexico is riddled with legends about cave-dwelling giants, who even helped the little people in farming, who suddenly became cannibalistic for lack of food and began to hunt human children, so they were hunted down and many went into their caves and never resurfaced, not to mention all the clippings about giant skeletons with sharp teeth in newspapers. I understand that these Blemies I spoke of were also considered giants.

While translating this new map I was thinking about the information on the map of Egypt (Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany). There Ham was said to be called Camese and being the youngest of Noah’s sons born after the Flood. It came now to mind the simple fact that the last of the sons of Ham was Canaan, who was the one cursed by Noah in the famous episode of the Bible. But it is said that in ‘classical antiquity’ the misnomer ‘Curse of Ham’ was attached to the ‘Curse of Canaan’ (Canaan (son of Ham) - Wikipedia). So Bonsignori says that Ham had a double name while in reality the second name, Camese, might be attributed to his youngest son Canaan. Consequently there was a double mistake with some truth to it. On one hand Cam and Camese are two different characters while on the other Camese was the last of Ham’s sons, not Noah’s. I an going to use Ham as a translation of Camese in any case.

But this once more begs the question. How could the monk Bonsignori and those who came up with these stories be so ignorant about the main text of christianity, the Bible? It seems as if Bonsignori was talking about far away traditions not really important during his time. It seems as if he himself and Annio preceding him were in fact taught these stories by somebody else and were reporting them trying to correlate them with their own stories about Graeco-Roman dieties. Was the misnomer ‘Curse of Ham’ really given during ‘classical antiquity’?

Let’s now continue, since this one coming is like a thread within a thread.



Eighth map titled ‘L’Italia’ by Stefano Bonsignori. This map has three captions: one for the Italian peninsula, one for Sicily and another for Sardinia and Corsica.

View attachment 23323​

Italian peninsula: Gomer Gallus (Comero Gallo), son of Japheth (Iafet), was the first to obtain this kingdom by his ancestor Noah (Noe), and directed its peoples on the right path. But when Ham (Camese) was driven out by the others, he came here and began to corrupt those peoples. But then Noah, also known as Janus (Iano), arrived and expelled him. Some years after his death, the Peoples (Popoli), oppressed by the Great Ones* (Grandi), called Osiris Jupiter Just (Osiri Gioue Giusto) for help. He freed them and taking the name of Apis (Api), he reigned there for many years. Leaving the kingdom to Laestrygon (Lestrigone), he went back to Egypt (Egitto), where he was killed by his Brother Typhon (Fratello Tifone) due to the conspiracy of Laestrygon and the other great ones. This event prompted Hercules (Ercole) to take away this state in order to avenge his father, and he ruled over it for many years until he left it to his son Tusco. It wasn’t long before Hesperus (Espero) occupied it after being driven away from Spain (Spagna) by his brother Italus (Italo), and the land was called Hesperia (Esperia), leaving the previous name of Oenotria (Enotria). Hesperus enjoyed it for a short time, because he was pursued by Italus Atlas Chitim** King of Spain (Italo Atlante Chitim Re di Spagna), who took it from him and called it Italy (Italia). His own successors didn’t last much since Dardanus (Dardano) killed his brother Iasion (Iasio) due to a wrongdoing*** and fled to Samothrace (Samotracia) fearing for his life. There he renounced all the claims he had upon the kingdom of Italy to Tyrrhenus (Turreno), son of the High King of Lydia (Alto Re di Lidia), and obtained in exchange a state in Asia, which was the basis for the Trojan (Troiano) kingdom, while Tyrrhenus obtained this one. Italus had given the rulership of the Aborigines (Aborigeni) to his daughter Roma, and from her ensued the realm of Latium (Latio) that passed on to the Trojans guided by Aeneas (Enea), whose descendants founded Rome (Roma), that after some centuries dominated almost the entire world. But being human things unstable, this, too, came to an end and the unfortunate Italy was trampled on and torn apart by the Goths (Gotti), the Alemanni (Alemani), the Lombards (Longobardi), the Saracenes (Saracini), the Normans (Normandi), the Franks (Franzesi), the Spaniards (Spagn.li) and other foreign peoples. But today it is peacefully ruled by its princes, who will with their knowledge and wisdom free it from great danger and ruin looming over it ina way similar to Greece (Grecia), as Astrologers (Astrologi) say. Given that the Stars (Stelle) and their movements make no harm at all, still they show well enough the dangers we human beings have to face, so that with prudence and good government we can take care and get rid of them.

* The word ‘Grandi’ means ‘Big Ones’ but I chose ‘Great’ because it sounds better. Be it Great, Big, Huge or Titanic, the word obviously refers to the Titans/Giants and all the other possible declinations we already know.

** I couldn’t find much information about a possible translation and/or meaning of the word Chitim, other than the variant Chitin. It seems to be an appelative of Atlas.

*** The word is ‘torlo’. Cannot find a translation in modern Italian for this one but it seems ‘wrongdoing’ fits with the general sense of the sentence.

There’s so many things to say that it’s difficult to know where to start, so I think it’s best to divide this story in various points and then proceed.
1. Gomer Gallus, son of Japhet, first king of the peninsula.
2. Ham second ruler.
3. Noah takes charge.
4. The Great Ones rule.
5. Osiris Jupiter Just/Apis takes power.
6. Laestrygon left on the throne.
7. Osiris Jupiter Just killed by Typhon in a conspiracy in Egypt.
8. Hercules, son of Osiris, takes over from Laestrygon.
9. Tusco succeeds his father Hercules
10. Hesperus leaves Spain and gives his name to the territory, previously known as Oenotria.
11. Italus Atlas Chitim, Hesperus’ brother, takes Hesperia and renames it Italy.
12. Italus’ successors.
13. Dardanus kills Iasion and flees.
14. Dardanus leaves his title of King of Italy to Tyrrhenus.
15. Italus had already given Latium to his daughter Roma, and this kingdom will be taken back by Dardanus’ successor Aeneas.
16. Romans.
17. Invasions.

So here it’s finally introduced Gomer ‘Gallus’, who is clearly a different person from the previous Celtus talked about the France map. It’s difficult to understand who was the most gaulish of the two. But here Bonsignori has already stated that Celtus (Galate) was the ancesor of the Gauls, not Gomer Gallus. And still no word is spent on this Gomer, about whom we know that he was Ashkenaz’s father and Johannes Aventinus (Johannes Aventinus - Wikipedia), whose work was in the same line of that by Annio da Viterbo, identified him with Tuisto (Tuitsch - Johannes Aventinus - Wikipedia) already in the beginning of the 16th century. His work is now considered to be a fabrication.

Both Johannes and Annio apparently took their information from the ancient author Berossus, who was considered legit at that time but later declared a false and labeled Pseuso-Berossus (Berossus - Wikipedia) and cast into oblivion along with these stories. It is called ‘pseudo’, keep it in mind.

About Annio da Viterbo, once again, the wiki says (Annio da Viterbo - Wikipedia): ‘The Antiquities met at once both with believers and with severe critics who accused him of willful interpolation, or even fabrication. The content was falsely attributed to Berosus, Fabius Pictor, Cato the Elder, Manetho and others. The spurious character of these "historians" of Annio, which he published both with and without commentaries, has long been admitted. The demolition of the forgeries owed much to Joseph Justus Scaliger.’

Joseph Justus Scaliger! (https://chronologia.org/en/seven/1N01-EN-001-030.pdf - Joseph Justus Scaliger according to Jacob Duellman)

It was apparently Berossus the one equating Noah to Janus due to the invention of wine. Therefore it is stated that the name ‘Janus’ derives from the Hebrew root ‘iain’, wine, and according to Cato the Elder, in his ‘Origines’, the Greeks called him Oenotrus. Therefore the first name for Italy, Oenotria, was apparently given by Noah himself, according to this reconstruction.

I’m not going to relate the entire story. It’s interesting to see the Egyptian vibe of it. It seems a huge chunk of Greek ‘mythology’ was believed to be Egyptian history. Osiris and Jupiter were basically considered the same and the main Hercules of the story comes from Egypt rather than Greece. In a moment we are going to see the Greek one in relation to the islands. The Great Ones have a Tartarian vibe for sure, but they clearly represent the Titanomachy and Gigantomachy of Greek mythology. Italy was also apparently called Hesperia at a certain point in time, while this name is generally associated with Spain.

But I bet the most interesting part is the one talking about Italus, who supposedly gave Italy its name. Here he is called Italus Atlas Chitim, the King of Spain. As I’ve already said, I don’t have any ideas about the meaning of the word ‘Chitim’ (‘Chitin’ elsewhere after a quick research), but Atlas was for sure the name of the Titan from Greek mythology. And it was also said to be King of Atlantis. Is Bonsignori saying that the Italian peninsula took its name after the conquest by people coming from outside of Europe?
Italian - Latin - Atlantean?

I am going to stop here, since it’s already too much!



Sicily: Expelled from Italy by his father Noah (Noe), Ham (Camese) was the first to enter this island with colonies. After him came Celtus (Galate), son of the Egyptian Hercules (Ercole Egizzio), sent by his brother Tusco accompanied by Tuscan (Toscane) peoples. And then was the turn of Sicano, Lord* of Spain (S. di Spagna) after whom the land took the name of Sicania, leaving aside its previous name of Trinacria. At last it took the name of Sicily (Sicilia) after Siculus (Siculo) son of the Greek Hercules (Ercole Greco) or after Siculus and Siceleo, Lords of Spain, as others believe. And then the Greeks (Greci) entered who were not united and therefore the Carthaginians (Cartag.si) took advantage of it and almost ruled on the entire territory, which was achieved by the Romans (Romai). And when the Roman monarchy disappeared it was at the mercy of various people. But nowadays it’s defended by the King of Spain and enjoys its salubrious air and fertility of its land. The Greeks wrote many fables about this island, which contain important things under their veils.

* I’ve translated ‘S.’ with ‘Lord’ presuming it stands for ‘Signore’.

We are dealing here with a ‘Graeco-Egyptian’ history of the Mediterranean as much as in the previous caption. I am not going to comment on everything but just want to remember that all of these stories were attributed to Berossus through Annio da Viterbo and it was Scaliger who proclaimed them fabrications. Since then they are considered myths and nobody really cares anymore.
I am not saying I believe 100% these stories, but I believe they contain some truth and there could possibly be some geographical mistake hidden behind these tales.

The Gauls took Sicily with a Tuscan army? More about that! Are we sure it all happened in the misty antiquity?
The Greek Hercules makes here his first cameo appearance. Who was he at this point? What’s the difference with the Egyptian one?



Sardinia and Corsica: It seems the ancient people thought that the Islands of Sardinia and Corsica (Isole di Sardigna e Corsica) were one and the same, due to their proximity. It is said that Phorcys (Forco) son of Neptune (Nettuno) was sent there with Tuscan (Toscane) colonies by his brother Laestrygon (Lestrigone), the King of Italy (Re d’Italia), and left a part of it to the Ligures (Liguri). And it seems logic to assume that this part was Corsica, called Cyrnos (Cirno) by the Greeks (Greci). Which is still under their control. After Phorcys came from Africa Sardus (Sardo), son of the Egyptian Hercules (Ercole Eggizio) with a great number of african people and the land took its name after this Sardus. It was then harassed by the Greeks, followed by the Carthaginians (Cartaginesi), who lost it to the Romans (Romani). But after many misfortunes, it obeys to the King of Spain (Re di Spagna), who defends it from the Barbarians* (Barbarbari), keeps its peace and rules it with Justice (Giustizia).

* People from the Barbary Coast in north Africa/Maghreb.

Sardinians come from Egypt. It is believed nowadays that Sardinians are autochthonous to the island, but here it’s well explained their origin. It is obviously not the only origin, but the main one. Ligures are mentioned here for the first time. They supposedly took Corsica in the time of myths and kept it all through the ages untill Napoleon, despite historians saying it passed multiple hands, expecially the Romans. Something is off with history.



Why did Scaliger and those behind him had to disregard all of these stories substituting them with a falsely scientific official history?

I'm exhausted

The following thing I am going to say I think it relates to much of what I read in the different maps you have been translating, to give me an understanding of the whole thread I will put together I want to start with a map.
The following map: 1598 entitled Tartariae Sive Magni Chami Regni typus.
In the middle of Tartary a certain kingdom called Argon is pointed out on one side of Arsaret, of which it says the following:
Argon. There was once in Asia a Christian kingdom known by Prester John, and D. Thomas founded it in this place, so that it was in contact with the church of Rome, and was subject to Rome through Prester John of Africa. Before being defeated by the Goths, it was known as Criue Romoue .... That is, this city was founded by the apostle Thomas.
I went to look for the Map of Urbano Monte 1587, it also contains the kingdom of Aragon next to the kingdom of Arsaret, nearby there is something about the 12 tribes of Israel.

1598

1587

​

King Ian or John creator of the kingdom of Sardinia and Rome. Kingdom in the Middle Ages.
John II of Aragon and Navarre, the Great, or John without Faith according to the Catalan rebels who rose up against him.
Juan II de Aragón - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
John II was one of the longest-lived monarchs of the 15th century - his enemy Louis XI of France called him an old "vulpeja".

Would this creator of the kingdom of Sardinia be the same as Prester John?

It seems that there is a manuscript called: The General Calf.
Book in which the shields used by many kingdoms and empires, lordships and the genealogy of the lineages of Spain and the shields that they use are related.
The author of this work is Don Diego Fernandez de Mendoza, knight that he found in the war of Granada, chronicler of Fernando de Aragon, year 1671.
Curious that this same Aragon and the city of Aragon in Asia that passed from the apostle tomas to Prestor Juan are related in this way.

It includes a description of the coat of arms of Prester Juan king of the Indies.
The manuscript uses two different versions of the same facts, and is presented as an enigma for the reader to solve.
It tells how Christianity becomes dogma and imposes its faith together with the authority of Preste Juan, but with two different stories that, according to the author of the manuscript, must be understood. In the first, an alliance is established through a marriage between an Indian princess and a European knight, which results in the imposition of Christianity. In the second, the appearance of Christ would have been a decision of three magicians from the Indies, whose purpose would have been to create a spiritual leader in the image and likeness of the teachings of a worthy ancestor, choosing the patriarch Thomas, for whose custody the project and the power of Prester John is created. In a way, it speaks to us of two origins of the same myth: the political and the spiritual.
Secondly, it questions the authority of the popes of Rome, as leaders of the Christian church from its beginnings, and grants this dignity to a priest, named John, who, on the other hand, appears as a singular leader of Eurasia in the Middle Ages, until the European colonization of the XV-XVI century, but of whose trace there is no collective conscience. Thirdly, the powers of the Dukes of Alba and the Kings of Portugal are said to derive from the medieval Greek imperial lineage, and that of the Kings of Aragon from a related Black Sea expedition.
Interestingly, Aragon in Spain is again linked to Aragon in Siberia.
Siberia Iberia and Iberoamerica (said to be called Iberoamerica because they speak Iberoromance languages).

Coats of arms attributed to Prestor Juan
​

Returning to the kingdom of Sardinia, I have some data.

When the Roman Empire fell, the Germanic tribes such as the Erulos and Ostrogoths took over Italy.
AD 539 The Gothic wars between the Byzantine empire and the Ostrogoths take place. Byzantines with their Bicephalous Eagle shield.
569 the Lombards arrive and take over northern Italy until 774 AD. and dominate Italy alongside the Byzantines.
Charlemagne appears on the scene and among his kingdoms is the Lombard.
1162 Frederick I Barbarossa Holy Roman Emperor
1277 - 1447 appears the house of the Visconti founded by Oton Visconti archbishop of Milan, their coat of arms is very similar to how they represented Quetzalcoatl, equally similar to Prestor Juan's coat of arms.

Then the Visconti possessions become part of the Valois (French) and later recovered by the Sforza.

Coat of arms of the Visconti de Gallura, France also has a rooster as a shield, right?
​

In 1535 this area of the kingdom of Sardinia passed into the hands of Charles V emperor of the Holy Roman Empire with the possessions that the kingdom of Aragon had in Italy and those of Spain and the area of Germany and France.

Portrait of the then Prince Charles, the future Emperor, with his paternal family (by Bernhard Strigel, Vienna, Kunsthistorisches Museum). With the portraits appear inscriptions that identify them as members of the family of Jesus. Thus, Maximilian is Cleofás, blood brother of Saint Joseph, and Carlos is «SIMON ZELOTES CON/SOBRINVS. DNI. NRI”.​

1540 Felipe son of Carlos new Germanic Roman emperor, continues to reign over the kingdom of Sardinia.

I remember Ogilby mentioning that the people of Norumbega were Lombards and related to the Mexicans and David Ingram mentioned that the people of Norumbega spoke a language very similar to Latin (the Lombards lived with the Byzantines, remember?).

Even if there is a relationship with the Mexicans, several titles come to mind like that in the newspaper: Country that the Spanish found 1521, Called Yucatán.

It says: King Mathozoma, who is the heart / of Great Venice / and the most powerful king... In the same lake there is a great city... Christians call it Great Venice... Why? Cortes put it that way? Was he not himself a Christian? Why would Christians/Spaniards call it Great Venice unless it reminded them of Venice? The conquerors generally named their territories after their countries of origin.

The Lombards being neighbors of the Venetos of Byzantium with their double-headed eagle, a Moctezuma with the double-headed eagle, old maps of Mexico, double-headed eagles like the one from Cortes, the map of Uppsala that was found in Sweden.

The Lombard-Venetian kingdom had a double-headed eagle... Before the Napoleonic wars, the territories that would form the kingdom were the Duchy of Milan under Habsburg rule and the Republic of Venice.

​

 

[iseidon]

I know, Wiki is not to be trusted, but many members constantly refer to it for historical events.

I'm sure most authors provide a link to Wikipedia just so the reader can read the short and general version (and pick out for himself what he needs by reading between the lines). Pure courtesy (so the reader doesn't have to waste time and make unnecessary movements). Considering that in some things, Wikipedia is a pretty good general source that superficially touches on many topics. If the subject is of interest, the internet is at your service.

@Silveryou, thank you for your hard work.

 

[Deleted member 37]

About the Troglodytes it occurs to me that it could refer to the Blemians, a fantastic people of acephalous men known as blemias.

I don't really believe in 'modified'. 'diverse' human beings without a head, with a canine head or a single leg. If I have to rationalize a person with his head in the torso, I would say that they left their afro hair grow without a cut and therefore it could give the impression of their head being embed with the rest of the body. Just a thought here.

I went to look for the Map of Urbano Monte 1587, it also contains the kingdom of Aragon next to the kingdom of Arsaret, nearby there is something about the 12 tribes of Israel.

It says: 'here live(d) the 10 tribes of Israel'.

Would this creator of the kingdom of Sardinia be the same as Prester John?

It includes a description of the coat of arms of Prester Juan king of the Indies.

To me the Priest John has to be another name of Janus, in the light of these maps I'm translating. I'm not going to say it's true, but at least it makes more sense than singular individuals called Johns living 700-800 years ago, or less than that. As I said I'm not a fan of the extreme chronological revisionism because it tends to merge history with various political or ideological or religious motivations which were popular and in part still are in these last few centuries.
From what can be understood by these maps it seems that Christainity is not necessarily related to Judaism, or at least not in the way it's commonly believed, which is that Christianity is a derivative of it. The figure of Noah/Janus/Prester John is much more important than commonly believed.

Secondly, it questions the authority of the popes of Rome, as leaders of the Christian church from its beginnings

And here is the part about political/religious/ideological bias. The General Calf (El origen inédito del Cristianismo oficial, un matrimonio y/o un proyecto indio) doesn't question the Pope's authority, in fact it reinforces it by saying that the Pope is the rightful successor of John/Janus/Noah. The one who questions it is the author Andreu Marfull, who is a communist with (surprise surprise) an immense love for the Jews. He has established a weird and baseless chronological reduction of 185 years out of thin air, and then applied his ideology to history. So it's a continuous praise to the Jews and blame on the Romans throughout the entire website.
So thank you Marfull for recovering the manuscript, but you should try to leave your Jewish bias where it is.

These things aside there is certainly something going on, even though I'm not certain about reconstructions with symbolism alone.

By the way, some years ago I transcripted the complete chronological shift of 185 years (and its double of 370 years) proposed by Marfull.

 

[ViniB]

I find it interesting that people find it difficult to accept that the history of rome has no sources, yet when it comes to matters of chronology that fly in the face of Scalinger it is okay to reveal such falsehoods. It is apparent that Berossus is as difficult to extrapolate real history from as any of the other "ancient historians" so much of mainstream academia is based on. An argument used on both sides of the coin, to use forgery and lack of primary source as a reason to discredit another view.

The implications of a wider acceptance about this fact of lack of original sources is a major, if Not total, discredit of the entire his-story of the 1st millenium along with the main religious institutions...... tbh i wouldn't mind that because one of my dreams is to storm the pedocan library :v

 

[Deleted member 37]

Tenth map titled ‘Parte d’Affrica’ by Stefano Bonsignori.

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This part of High Aethiopia (Ethiopia) was so called after Aethiop (Ethiope) son of Vulcan (Vulcano), who ruled over it. It was unknown for many centuries, although many authors wrote about it and the sources of the Nile (Nilo) and its floods, even though they did in many different ways. Ptolemy King of Egypt (Tolomeo Re d’Egitto), called philadelphus, discovered it, since he wanted new things for his leisure and new entertainments, and sent there people and found out that the heavy rain was the cause for those floods. But after his time the other Kings were not very intereseted in learning and almost ignored such things. But at the present day the Portuguese (Portoghesi), following the conquests they did in the East Indies (Indie Orientali), clearly showed and disclosed not only that the Nile has multiple sources, but also that this part of the world is nowadays called Abyssinia (Abasia) and its people are the Abyssinians (Abissini). This province is governed by the Emperor of the Ethiopians (Limpadore delli Ethiopi) called prester John (Ianni), who rules over an Empire (Imperio) of fifteen (XV) great reigns all united together. It is said that the cult of the Gods (Dei) and the first rites and sacrifices were originally instructed among them. These people are Christian (X.i) converted by Saint Philip the Apostle (S. Filippo Appostolo), who first converted the eunuch chamberlain of Queen Kandake (Regina Candace). They believe the lineage of their kings (Re) goes back to Solomon (Salamone) and the Queen of Sheba (Regina Sabba). These people have many Judaic (Giudaiche) rites, like the observance of the Shabbat (Sabato), the circumcision and others. They hold one of their patriarchs as their Pater Patriae (PP)*, who is called Alima in their language and means father in ours. The Portuguese have managed to discover and gain many riches from these places after their conquest of the East Indies. The first discovererof this land was Lord** Diogo Lopes de Sequeira (S. Diego Lopezze di Sequira), who landed at the port of Mazzua in the Arabian (Arabico) gulf. A close friendship was then established between Manuel King of Portugal (Emanuello Re di Portogallo) and these people, which lasted to this day. This nation was gross and with little arts or crafts. But nowadays, due to the commerce of the Portoguese, they are industrious and are improving day after day.

* I think PP stands for Pater Patriae, ‘Father of the Nation’, since it fits with the role of the Alima, which is said to mean ‘father’ as well. I couldn't trace the term Alima anywhere on the web, so if someone knows, let me/us too.

** I translated ‘S.’ with Lord imagining it stands for Italian ‘Signore’, but I cannot unsee the same ‘S.’ used for Philip the Apostle and presumably meaning Saint. It seems there was not that difference between being a Lord and a Saint in any case!

Not exactly related to the text, but I wonder if the Shabbat has anything to do with the Queen of Sheba. In particular the Queen of Sheba notoriously went on a trip to meet Solomon. Was it the first sabbatical (Sabbatical - Wikipedia)?

So in a previous map Bonsignori said that the Ethiopians changed their capital as a consequence of Portuguese activity ‘from Garama to Zambare’ (Sixteenth century maps from Tuscany). Now he says they ruled over an empire composed of fifteen huge reigns. This should mean, as partially stated in the previous map, that they ruled over most of the interior parts of Africa. The protagonist is always Prester John: was he Janus/Noah?

The explorer Diogo Lopes de Sequeira became acquainted with these places in the city of Mazzua in The Arabian Gulf. I don't know where this city is located and what's its name nowadays. I am not even sure that the Arabian Gulf Bonsignori is talking about is the modern Persian Gulf. In any case it seems the text implies that Diogo actually didn't go there. So why should he be considered its discoverer?

If somebody sees something else unusual let me/us know.

 

[trismegistus]

They believe the lineage of their kings (Re) goes back to Salomon (Salamone) and the Queen of Sheba (Regina Sabba). These people have many Judaic (Giudaiche) rites, like the observance of the Shabbat (Sabato), the circumcision and others.

Graham Hancock discusses the Judaic origins of the Ethiopians in his book Sign and Seal, in which he also makes the claim that the holy grail is kept hidden in Our Lady Mary of Zion Church.

See also: The Lalibela Churches in Ethiopia aren't rock-cut, but products of a cataclysm

Unsurprisingly it appears as if this lake has undergone considerable expansion in the last few hundred years, if the cartography is to be taken at face value.

So in a previous map Bonsignori said that the Ethiopians changed their capital as a consequence of Portuguese activity ‘from Garama to Zambare’

Perhaps Garama was submurged in the expansion of the lake? This could be a possible explanation in lieu of the Portuguese explanation

Many large coastal cities bordering this lake on his maps have likely been submerged. The pin drop and coordinates are for Tana Qirqos, which according to Hancock was the first resting place of the Grail for 800 years. Was this truly an island at the time or do these coordinates match up with the city Gafat?

ON THE TRAIL OF THE ARK OF THE COVENANT IN ETHIOPIA’S LAKE TANA – Addis Herald

The Iconography of St. George in Ethiopia: Part II: ST. GEORGE THE DRAGON-KILLER on JSTOR

Category:Paintings of Saint George and the dragon of Ethiopia - Wikimedia Commons

Why such focus on artwork featuring dragon slaying? Was this a land of dragons in the past?

To the north, you also have some interesting ruins.

Site - Fasil Ghebbi - Gondar

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[Deleted member 37]

Unsurprisingly it appears as if this lake has undergone considerable expansion in the last few hundred years, if the cartography is to be taken at face value.

Perhaps Garama was submurged in the expansion of the lake? This could be a possible explanation in lieu of the Portuguese explanation

It doesn't seem to me it's the same lake though. Sorry if I give poor indications about the maps themselves. It represents the territory of what is now modern Kenya and Tanzania. So that lake in the centre should be Lake Victoria.

About Garama and Zambare, the previous map represented the second on what is probably the southern tip of modern Lake Tanganyka, although I don't know what that city is called nowadays. Mpulungu (Mpulungu - Wikipedia)? Mbala (Mbala, Zambia - Wikipedia)? Some other city? Or is it maybe in ruin? Or maybe even the ruins don't exist anymore!

When it comes to Garama, Bonsignori doesn't say where this city was located, but it sems it was not near Zambare. I don't see it on this map and for what I remember it's not even in the map of Ethiopia proper. So it would be interesting to understand what is the real current or historical name of this city. The only Garama I found is the capital of the Garamantes in Lybia, but it doesn't fit nor for the location nor for the people inhabiting it.

The implications of a wider acceptance about this fact of lack of original sources is a major, if Not total, discredit of the entire his-story of the 1st millenium along with the main religious institutions...... tbh i wouldn't mind that because one of my dreams is to storm the pedocan library :v

There are a lot of books at disposal to read. I think it's better to start with those available and then proceed with the Vatican and the other side of the Moon. I know a lot of people who haven't read anything but want to pick at the 'De mysteriis such and such'!